Loading summary
Transcript101 lines
- [00:07]
David Brown
I'm David Brown, and this is business wars. In 2020, at the height of the pandemic, more than 1 million consumers purchased Peloton bikes. After all, Peloton was the it workout. SNL even spoofed the company's famously enthusiastic instructors in this sketch from 2021 featuring the Pelotone, a bike with classes powered by negative reinforcement.
- [00:52]
Cassie Ho
Let's give it up for Mike, who's.
- [00:53]
Lauren Thomas
Working out in his garage.
- [00:55]
Cassie Ho
Oh no, this is my living room.
- [00:58]
David Brown
What?
- [00:59]
Lauren Thomas
I feel mentally broken down, but hey, I can see.
- [01:02]
David Brown
But now that folks have returned to in person workouts, the bike has become more of an expensive clothing rack for some. With the hype dying down, Peloton is scrambling to find their next big thing. Recently, they've introduced new features like AI powered personalized coaching, integrations with external fitness trackers like Apple Watch and Garmin Comfier bike seats and voice control. But is that enough to keep them pedaling? Between its CEO shakeups and major layoffs, many on Wall street are wondering whether the company will get acquired by a bigger fish. Think Nike or Apple. Peloton's current CEO, Peter Stern has shut down these whispers for now, but only time will tell. Business reporter Lauren Thomas has had her eye on Peloton since its peak. She covers mergers and acquisitions and shareholder activism for the Wall Street Journal. Before that, she covered Peloton for cnbc, where she doc documented the company's rise and subsequent fall. Today we're talking about what's next for Peloton and how they plan to grow beyond the bike. Later, we're speaking with an independent fitness founder who experienced a similar challenge as she grew her own online workout community. That success helped her launch a clothing brand, one that's been worn by Lizzo, Jonathan Van Ness, and even Taylor Swift. Cassie Ho is the founder of the online fitness channel Blogilates. It started as free at home workouts on YouTube and quickly evolved into a community with millions of loyal fans. Cassie used this as an opportunity to expand the business and pursue her lifelong dream of fashion design. Now her brand, Popflex, has taken over the Internet, with videos of her designs consistently going viral. Cassie joins us to share her story and explain how she took her business from YouTube workouts to a fitness empire. Grab your sweat towel and have water at the ready, because all that is coming up. When Netflix pivoted from DVDs to streaming, or when Amazon expanded beyond books, those transformations came from leaders who kept questioning their own strategies. Hey, have you met Claude? If you're looking to challenge your own thinking about a business problem or discover new ideas. Or Claude can be your go to AI thinking partner. Instead of delivering quick answers, Claude works through complex decisions with you. Take market expansion planning beyond identifying new territories, CLAUDE helps teams explore things like regulatory landscapes and competitive dynamics. It's the kind of deep analysis that reveals additional opportunities. CLAUDE researches across hundreds of sources in just minutes to deliver accurate, comprehensive analyses for technical teams. CLAUDE code automates complex coding work and through the CLAUDE API, development teams can integrate Claude's reasoning capabilities directly into their existing systems and workflows. The companies featured on Business wars succeeded through continuous strategic questioning, not easy answers whether teams are analyzing supply chain vulnerabilities, exploring new business models or debugging critical systems. Or CLAUDE can become your AI collaborator in working through complexity until breakthrough insights emerge. Check out Claude for yourself for free at Claude AI Businesswars and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Earn up to 200,000 bonus points with the IHG1 rewards Premier Business Card Limited time offer ends 1022 Visit ihg.com Businesscard cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC offers subject to change terms apply Lauren Thomas welcome to Business Wars.
- [05:07]
Lauren Thomas
Thank you for having me.
- [05:09]
David Brown
When did Peloton first land on your radar as a journalist? Do you remember when you started covering it?
- [05:14]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah, to be totally honest I I was not like an OG Peloton fan or even follower aware of the brand. I probably didn't start paying attention to Peloton until it went public. Its IPO. It was about September of 2019. So I was at CNBC at the time, was covering a lot of these startups and there was a wave in which many of them, these VC backed companies, private companies, were looking to go public, starting to go public and then lo and behold there's Peloton. That's really when the company as a business journalist first landed on my radar.
- [05:55]
David Brown
You know that's so interesting. Interesting because I think that that's true for me too. I had not heard about the Peloton device until I heard the ipo. Right. And it put it on so many people's radars.
- [06:07]
Lauren Thomas
Exactly. It was more of like a business story for me than it was something that I was really following as a consumer at the time, 2019. You know, day to day I'm like working out at the gym and I had different habits and just my own personal routine. So it just wasn't necessarily a product that I was, I was familiar with.
- [06:26]
David Brown
Well, did you ever get around to actually exploring Peloton as a consumer.
- [06:31]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah, no, it's a great question. So then Fast forward to 2020, and it's. Then I suddenly fit in with everyone else, and we all bought Peloton bikes, and especially in New York, in a way, like, the Peloton brand became synonymous with for better or for worse, whether or not the company liked it or not. But it was just synonymous with staying at home, stay at home, lifestyle, and being stuck at home. You're looking for things to do, and this was something to do, and it was a fun way to exercise. And so it, the brand, I think, and name Peloton became so tied to Covid and everything that it was, it.
- [07:05]
David Brown
Was about, you know, I, I, maybe I'm misremembering this. You probably remember, but Sex and the City, when they did the reboot, right, Just like that, I think it was called. Wasn't there some plot thread where characters suffered a heart attack?
- [07:19]
Lauren Thomas
Yes, exactly.
- [07:20]
David Brown
That's it.
- [07:21]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. No, that was a, that was an interesting moment. I think the stock actually fell on that, you know, on that, on that headline. I remember. And it's just interesting. It shows, like, the power and marketing. This was, you know, more of a joke in a TV show. But, yeah, if they weren't already on your radar as a, as a consumer or a TV watcher, I think that certainly put the brand on more people's.
- [07:45]
David Brown
Minds, you know, but what's really fascinating to me, and we got into this a little bit in our, in our exploration during our series on Peloton, but there was this idea Peloton founders had originally, and that was that someday Peloton would, in a way, replace the gym as a place to go. And Covid became kind of the manifestation of that expectation. And I sort of get the sense that people at the very top of Peloton, this would have been around the time of the ipo, shortly thereafter, and it's just exploding. Everyone's ordering Peloton bikes. Peloton can't keep up with the demand. And there's this real sense that maybe, maybe they saw the future, maybe that maybe it was the end of the gym. Do you remember that?
- [08:31]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because you go back, the company really started, you know, with an idea. Of course, it was back in 2012, I think they did a Kickstarter campaign, you know, to raise money around this idea of this bike, this workout bike, where you could then have other activities, other types of content on screen, and just have like an all in one Workout at home. So they start with this idea, and I don't know if. If at the time, like anyone truly could have predicted that, you know, a pandemic certainly was staring us down in the future just a couple years later, but it certainly, I mean, it pulled forward, like you were saying, an incredible amount of demand, which then raised, obviously, a lot of interesting questions about the business and just the financial side of things.
- [09:16]
David Brown
Yeah. You know, once upon a time, I had a business class with someone who had a lifetime full of jobs where he was bringing possibly defunct companies back to life, breathing new life into it. And he told our class one day, he said, you know what? And he mentioned the name of a very famous gym that's all over the country. And he said, you know what they're really in the business of doing? And everyone said, you sure? They. They run gyms all across the country. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, no. He said, I've had discussions with this company, and if you talk to the leaders of this company, they tell you their real business is selling contracts. It's selling contracts. And it's funny to me, the way that companies see themselves internally versus the way that the people who experience their products often see the company. A lot of people sort of saw Peloton as a way to work out. It's a, you know, number of reasons why someone would get a Peloton bike. But I sort of wonder if, in a way, Peloton was really selling a different thing. They were selling content. Because that was really the innovation of Peloton. There had been spin classes and stuff like that before this bike came along, right?
- [10:23]
Lauren Thomas
Oh, yeah, exactly. Great point. Because again, even me here in New York, like, you go to Soul Cycle, you know, there were plenty of Soul Cycle, perfect examples where you could go. Go to a studio and you're surrounded by people, and that was a fun experience, right? This. This idea of a spin bike was. Was nothing new. And in fact, you know, it's probably been around for ages, those old, old ellipticals or whatever that my grandparents would have at home. But I do think, exactly, you hit the nail on the head what they were able to achieve. And I think, why then it becomes a public company. And investors got so excited about the stock was they really created this community. People that used Peloton products kind of became part of this Peloton lifestyle and brand. And there would be forums online, you know, people connecting over this fitness item that was really unique, I think, and in part, like, what was so inspiring about the whole story and the company's rise and all the momentum, I think it really boiled down to the fact they were able to create this community.
- [11:26]
David Brown
I think you put your finger on it where you were talking about that sense of community, because there was something about the whole idea of getting together with others for a workout that was really appealing, that Peloton seemed to sort of tap into for. For a digital age.
- [11:39]
Lauren Thomas
Over time, too, as the product has gotten better and the technology has gotten better, they've even incorporated other ways into the bike where you can, you know, you can high five people, and it's not quite at the point where you can chat with people through your bike, but you can, you know, do a ride at the same time as a person and kind of compete with them. And so they've, you know, they've worked these other ways in where it just becomes more of an interactive experience.
- [12:03]
David Brown
Well, I would imagine that Peloton would have loomed large in your coverage back around early 2000s, their shares were surging, like, what, more than 400%? And of course, then you have the rebound for in person fitness. But what about the conclusion when it comes to this hybrid market that you have a little bit of gym, a little bit of private workout. How did. How did the market sort of seem to be developing over that period?
- [12:29]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah, no, it's a great question. And I think even to this day, a lot of consumers, I still think have stuck with that hybrid approach. But again, Covid just really accelerated it. And you know, for example, even as, you know, as we got into later in 2021, 2022 especially, like gyms were opening up again. You could go back to classes, you know, in person fitness classes if you wanted to. And I covered this myself, but you saw a lot of consumers do a little bit of both. All of a sudden it's like you realize during COVID like, oh, you know, I need to squeeze in a workout in a pinch, or it could be something else. This isn't even just relevant to workouts, but there were other ways to, you know, adapt your schedule and your routine, I guess. And you'd now seen, for example, a lot of the gyms in New York. You know, you have a gym membership, but all these gyms now have applications, you know, mobile apps on your phone, and they've got classes and content saved in these apps that you can also do at home. So I do think a lot of companies, not just Peloton, but a lot of companies, including gym chains, have adapted their businesses around this idea of, of hybrid.
- [13:35]
David Brown
You Know, Peloton has received so much attention for sort of making at home fitness kind of come alive and pop. I mean, the instructors, they had huge personalities, right? I mean, there were rankings of these instructors, you know, online, and that kind of. It was almost like a. A blending, a merge of. Of entertainment with. With fitness. Don't you?
- [13:56]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah, it's incredible. Some of these instructors now, they've got like millions of followers on their Instagram accounts and do things on TikTok, I think. I mean, so many of them have written books and some of them have these side hustles and they're on TV shows and they're doing ads for other brands. Like, it's really incredible. I mean, in my mind, they are celebrities. You know, they're just like any other celebrity. There's. They've become celebrities and they have this star status, and I think it's so smart. It also, at the same time, though, is, you know, putting my reporter hat on. Like, there's a lot of risk in that too, because, you know, say some of these instructors start to leave. Well, that could really, you know, that could be damaging to Peloton as a brand. Now, so far, I don't think we've seen a massive wave of departures of these Peloton instructors. You know, there have been one offs, and I've noticed a couple of them have left over time. You know, Cody Rigsby is a very popular name. Emma Lovewell, Jesse Sims, some of the OGs who are still there. It's amazing the status that these individuals have kind of created around themselves. It's super powerful.
- [14:58]
David Brown
What do you make of that? Do you think that they sort of have staying power? Are they celebrities in their own right, as you see it, or very much a part of the sort of a peloton subculture, if you will?
- [15:08]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah, I think it's a bit of both. I think it started out Peloton, you know, full throttle, super accelerated during COVID But as more people had eyeballs on these instructors and people like myself, you know, I was always a huge fan of this young woman, Olivia Amato, and was taking her classes. I call out numbers.
- [15:26]
Cassie Ho
That doesn't mean you need to follow them.
- [15:29]
Lauren Thomas
It's what works for you today, what makes you feel proud. Think about what that is. And then you start looking at, like, what is she buying? Or, you know, what brands is she into? And you start following them like you would any other influencer. And so they were. They were influenced, you know, they'd influence us, these instructors. So I feel like over time. You know, all of a sudden, it wasn't just about Peloton anymore. And I think Peloton is very smart and they realized they didn't want to keep their instructors just trapped within the Peloton box because in many ways, if they're associated with these other brands and they're out there doing other things, that could be really good for Peloton, too. So I feel like what I've noticed over time is just letting them out of the box a little bit more. And that's when you've seen, you know, Cody Rigsby going on Dancing with the Stars one season and, you know, multiple instructors writing various books and just being able to spread their wings a little bit. So long as they're sticking with Peloton, then that really, that's going to help the business at the end of the day.
- [16:26]
David Brown
Hey, it's time for a short break. We're speaking with Lauren Thompson, a business reporter who's covered Peloton ups and downs throughout the pandemic while at cnbc. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Peloton's recovery after a dramatic drop in popularity. Stay with with us. This episode is brought to you by Prize Picks. You and I make decisions every day, but on Prize Picks. Being right can get you paid. Don't miss any of the excitement this season on Prize Picks, where it's good to be right. Look, I'm big on college football, but getting really interested in picking the pros. All eyes on Patrick Mahomes, of course, as he continues to lead the Chiefs offense and hold on to his status as one of the league's best. But then you got Josh Allen, hugely dynamic quarterback. Playmaking ability for the Bills makes him one of those talents you gotta keep tabs on. Want to put your money where your mind is? Prize Picks is the only app that offers stacks. This means you can pick the same player up to three times in the same lineup. You want to pick. Say more on Josh Allen's pass, yards, rush, yards, touchdowns. Well, now you can pick all of them in the same lineup only on Prize Picks. Follow other Prize Picks players directly on the app and copy their lineups in one click. Whether it's a friend, a celebrity partner, or just someone whose picks you really like. Hit the follow button and check out every lineup they create in the new feed tab on Prizepix. Download the Prizepix app today and use code BW to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. That's code BW to get $50 in Lineups after you play your first $$5 lineup. Prize picks. It's good to be right. When planning for your future, you want someone with a history of keeping their word year after year. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has been a trusted name in the industry. But that isn't just a number. It's experience that matters. It's 160 years of promises held helping generations retire with confidence, protect their loved ones and plan for whatever comes next. Whether you're looking for life insurance, employee benefits or retirement income solutions, when your future is on the line, you want history on your side. And believe me, Pacific Life has been there, always there through changing times, always focused your needs, ready to secure your tomorrow. Ask a financial professional how Pacific Life can help you feel prepared for what's next. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. Because with Pacific Life, you're not just planning for the future, you're partnering with trusted experience. Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. Our guest is Lauren Thomas, business reporter for the Wall Street Journal who focuses on mergers and acquisitions. Lauren, you mentioned you had a peloton for a bit yourself. Whatever happened to your bike?
- [19:23]
Lauren Thomas
I know well and I love my peloton by the way. So like I said, I Got it in 2020 Covid like everyone else and I had it up until very recently, go figure. So for about five years up through, you know, it's 2025, but finally decided to get rid of because and it is very impressive, I bought this original bike and it got five years a lot of use. But I kind of realized this thing is getting old and run down and rusty and I had pieces falling off and I myself had also started going back to the gym and going back to classes and using various content on my phone. So really decided, you know, this thing's probably got enough use out of it and it's time to go. But it was, it was a bittersweet day for sure. I think that bike probably for a lot of other people too, there was, it's very sentimental kind of attached it to like my Covid experience and it was definitely something that, that got me through a lot of, you know, tough days.
- [20:21]
David Brown
That is so interesting that sort of psychological attachment to the peloton bike. You know you do associate it with a certain time in totally.
- [20:29]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah.
- [20:30]
David Brown
Yeah.
- [20:30]
Lauren Thomas
You know they've made a lot of updates over the years of course and new versions of the bike. So again I myself was using this, this older version. So I'm sure if I were to ever go back and buy another, that it would definitely be time for an upgrade.
- [20:43]
David Brown
I've got a hint. I got a. That you were not alone though here in finally making that hard decision to. To get rid of the bike. I know that as the Pandemic restrictions lifted, Peloton stock slid and they went through a couple of CEOs. A couple in two years, I think, trying to figure out what this post pandemic business model was going to look like. Could you tell us a little bit about some of the bumps they faced?
- [21:06]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah, definitely. You know, I remember this so well because it was early 2022, so we're kind of coming out of the. The worst of COVID days. And I remember doing some reporting around the fact that, you know, you could clearly see Peloton, the demand starting to drop off and there was a mix match between that Peloton was still making so much of its products and making all of these products, but the demand for them wasn't necessarily there like it was before. And so it was almost like that, you know, the trends started to reverse and. And you. And then there were a couple moments again as some of the financials started to come out that were revealing this, where the stock did take a big hit. And then at one point you had an activist investor come into the fray. And then there were rumors that Peloton was a takeover target. You know, they were in a vulnerable position and maybe someone else was going to swoop in and buy them. So there was a lot of noise again in 2022, and I think that's really when things started to trend downward. John Foley, who's the founder, was CEO at the time, and he stepped out of that position and they ended up bringing in Barry McCarthy. And I think he was brought in with this mission to really double down on just the subscription aspect of the business. You know, thinking about Peloton as more of a tech company in a way, with subscribers and, and monetizing the business around that.
- [22:31]
David Brown
Yeah, yeah. Thinking about revenue streams as opposed so much to, you know, selling the hardware.
- [22:36]
Lauren Thomas
There was this noticeable pivot from like hardware, hardware, hardware to how can we, you know, think about our current subscribers and growing that base and reducing the churn.
- [22:46]
David Brown
And then Fast forward to 2025. You have a new CEO, Peter Stern, who co founded Apple Fitness.
- [22:54]
Lauren Thomas
Exactly. No former. He was running the Apple Fitness business for a while. So that was super interesting. It's kind of worth noting that job opening had been out there for a while. You know, after Barry McCarthy, that CEO number two, when he steps out of the picture, they were looking for somebody to replace him and took him some time to find Peter and land on Peter Stern, I guess, as CEO, But I think, you know, he's only been in that seat for a couple of months now, but really off to the races already. There have been some noteworthy developments.
- [23:24]
David Brown
In fact, I think what they just announced some new AI coaching features or something like that.
- [23:29]
Lauren Thomas
Yeah. So huge rollout of products very recently. So they're kind of upgrading new bike, new tread. All of those will have, you know, minor things, including the seat cushion being more comfortable to updating to make sure that the screens on the bike can all swivel around. It goes back to this whole idea of, like, maybe you want to do a floor workout or you want to lift weight, so you want to do something different off of your bike, but still being able to use the screen for that. And they've got these new, new AI kind of capabilities that they're putting into all their software to allow the user to just have a way more interactive experience.
- [24:06]
David Brown
Lauren, I want to loop back to something you were mentioning there a few minutes ago. You talked a little bit about how there seemed to be a lot of buzzards overhead, people thinking about the possibility of acquisition and what might be going on there. And I know the newest CEO, Peter Stern, has said he's not preparing peloton for acquisition. In fact, I think we've got some audio of where he was talking at the Bloomberg Tech Summit this past June. Let's listen. I was not hired to sell this company. I was hired to bring this company.
- [24:35]
Lauren Thomas
Back to growth, to reinvigorate it.
- [24:37]
David Brown
And it is happening. We are a standalone company for years to come time.
- [24:40]
Lauren Thomas
Well, Lauren, you believe that's a great answer. I think, you know, from my. My view, and certainly as an M and a reporter, you know, if you're a public company, you always kind of have the for sale sign hanging on the front door, you know, and then whether you like it or not, my, you know, my read on it is really, Peter Stern is tasked with really getting the business back to sales growth. Right. There still have been in a period in which, you know, year over year again, just across the whole business, sales have been down and their cash flow positive at the moment, but really getting the business, you know, making sure it's profitable and. And sales are growing. I think at that point, it becomes a much more attractive candidate for a potential takeover. For a buyer that would like to come in, you Know, at a point in which the business is fixed up a little bit more and. And can hum along on its own.
- [25:32]
David Brown
I'm fascinated by that perspective, though, that you just mentioned, where you said it. In a way, you've always got that for sale sign hanging out there, and I guess money can do anything. But do you have a sense that Peloton wants to sell or that they're trying to come up with a posture to defend themselves from acquisition?
- [25:49]
Lauren Thomas
I can't necessarily get in all of their heads, but I do think there's a world in which this is a company that. And you've seen this across so many industries, right. You have these businesses that are very niche in what they do, and you tackle something, one specific thing really well, and you could argue that's Peloton with At Home Fitness. Then at the end of the day, particularly in the public markets, does that make sense as a standalone company? You know, is that a business where there's enough investor appetite, it's sustainable as a standalone public company? I feel like more often than not you find that over time the answer might. Might, you know, skewed toward no, and that it ends up being a business that would fit really well inside someone else, you know, and whether that's like an Apple or a Netflix or Amazon or Nike, these are a lot of names that have been thrown around in the past as potential, you know, takeover candidates. Who's to say? But I do see a world in. In which, you know, down the line, there's just this realization that, you know, this. This is a company that could really find a home within another business, you know, that's looking to really hone in technology, but specifically fitness technology, and get a slice of that market.
- [27:06]
David Brown
Let me just throw out this sort of steel man idea, though. If they decided they wanted to be a standalone business, what. What do you think it would take, move into apparel, Perhaps more tech?
- [27:17]
Lauren Thomas
It's a great question. Yeah, exactly. You get to a point where with your original product, whatever it is, you're hitting peak growth or you're topping out there. So you've got to go out and diversify. And by the way, Peloton does have experimented a lot around apparel. They've also experimented with other products. You've seen them roll out, you know, they've got weights and these other things that are Peloton branded that you can buy. And just recently, you know, one of the big new initiatives is now they're making their products available for use in a commercial setting. So what is that, you know, there's the Peloton bike that I could just go buy for my apartment. But say you're a big hotel company or, or say you're even a gym and you want to have some Pelo Peloton bikes in your facilities. Peloton's now making specific products just for those commercial buyers. So I think executives have even spoken publicly recently about the fact that they want that commercial business to grow and they see that commercial business being a growth driver in the future. So I would imagine that those are some pockets that the company is really going to tap into as they look for more growth, you know, especially if they want to be sustainable as a standalone company for some time.
- [28:26]
David Brown
What we've been talking about here though, stands out to me because, you know, even as its stock sort of seems to be stagnating, Peloton remains culturally relevant. And I'm curious why you think that is.
- [28:39]
Lauren Thomas
I think it just, they've got so many users who are just super loyal to the brand. And I think it's a phenomenon that, yes, it really started in the bigger cities, you know, places like New York or. We were early adapters and we saw the marketing, you know, before maybe other parts of the country and other parts of the world for that matter. But I still, you know, I grew up in the Carolinas and I go home to visit family and I remember they were laggards a bit, you know, they, they learned about Peloton, you know, maybe a few years after I did and then. But they're still, in a way, you know, they're still very new to the brand and enjoy it. And I think that that's just a good sliver of like showing what, you know, the rest of the world and people in other pockets of the country, you're just here in the US are feeling like. And so I think that there is some staying power in that regard. And you walk around New York City and I see people wearing the shirts and the branded clothing or whatever and they've got an in person studio here in New York that I know always books up and people make a whole experience about it, just coming to New York to visit and try to take a class at the Peloton studio. So it really, you know, it's like, you know, not quite like Nike in terms of like brand recognition. Right. But they've, they've definitely latched on to something and if found ways to keep people really engaged, that's the secret sauce is going to be and how they can manage to continue doing that to your Point for, for years and years to come.
- [30:06]
David Brown
Do you think that Peloton has an obvious competitor at the moment? Is there someone who stands out? And I wonder how they're doing.
- [30:14]
Lauren Thomas
I mean, they really compete with, with gyms probably more than anything else. There are some of these more niche at home products like the tonal machine or the, the hydro rower or there was a company called Mirror, which actually later got acquired by Lululemon. Super interesting. But it was a mirror where you'd look at yourself in the mirror and can do various cardio exercises that way. I've learned you can get a Pilates reformer to use at home, which is a very big machine. But it's, it's amazing. But I, you know, I don't think any of those have scaled nearly as large as Peloton and what they've achieved. So in some regards, Peloton competes with some of these smaller players. But I think really gyms and the in person classes, you know, and I.
- [31:00]
David Brown
Think about what you were saying about how people will make it sort of a destination when they go to New York City they want to be in as part of that Peloton, you know, class. Isn't that ironic? I mean, that Peloton's next act, right, might be in person, in person classes.
- [31:15]
Lauren Thomas
I know, I remember thinking that as they were opening that up too. I'm like the irony of it, but I bet, I think it's, it's very telling in that they're not opening up, up, you know, all across the country. They're not opening up multiple locations in New York. They're not trying to be the next soul cycle, you know, at least gives their most loyal fans a way to go experience the product in person.
- [31:36]
David Brown
Lauren Thomas is the lead reporter on mergers and acquisitions at the Wall Street Journal. You can check out her reporting@WSJ.com Lauren, thanks so much for joining. It's been great to have you on business wars.
- [31:47]
Lauren Thomas
Oh, so fun. Thank you for having me.
- [31:50]
David Brown
Coming up, find out how Blogilates founder Cassie Ho turned free online workouts into an activewear empire. Maybe Peloton could learn a thing or two. Stick around. Ready or not. Yep. The holidays are coming and I'll be honest, I love having friends and family over, but I don't love realizing at the last minute that my serving pieces look like they've been through one too many dinner parties or that the guest room is more college dorm chic than holiday cozy. Know what I mean? Well, that's where Wayfair comes in. We just ordered some new serving plates, a new wreath for the door, a set of crisp new sheets, and suddenly the house feels just about guest ready. Even better, it didn't feel like a chore. It felt fun. But I've been here before, I'll be honest. My secret the Wayfair App what I love most is how Wayfair has literally everything you need. That's no exaggeration. I was surprised to find high quality cookware that's perfect for hosting those big family dinners. And let me tell you something, delivery was a breeze. Free and fast, even for the larger items. Whether you're looking to spruce up your kids rooms with festive touches or need new bedding for the guest room, Wayfair's got you covered. From Christmas trees and wreaths to inflatables for the yard, they're truly a one stop shop for holiday prank. And the best part? There's something for every style and every budget. I can't wait to tackle more of my holiday home goals with Wayfair. It just makes getting ready for the season so much easier. Leaving more time to enjoy with the family. That's what it's all about. Get organized, refreshed and ready for the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W a Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home so you just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday? How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. See, when it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed's Sponsored Jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs. Your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. And that makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Plus, with Indeed sponsored Jobs, there aren't any monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. How fast is Indeed? Well, in the minute I've been Talking with you, 23 hires were made on Indeed according to Indeed data worldwide. Look, there's no need to wait any longer. You can speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of Business wars will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility. That's@ Indeed.com BW. Just go to Indeed.com BW right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed right here on business wars that's indeed.com BW terms and conditions apply. Hiring indeed is all you need. Welcome back to business wars. During the Pandemic, Peloton gave consumers an innovative way to work out inside the home at a time when it was our only option. But competitors jumped into the connected fitness category with their own equipment and programming. And so did a whole slew of fitness influencers. These Jane Fondas of the Pandemic rose in popularity on platforms like YouTube, Instagram and TikTok. And they started to cash in by charging subscription fees and then by creating branded products. Today, we're talking with one fitness entrepreneur who's been in that game long before lockdown was even a thing. In 2009, Cassie Ho was uploading free at home workouts to YouTube way before it was cool. She called her channel Blogilates, where she taught Pilates workouts set to pop music. Her community continued to grow, and by the early 2010s, millions were engaging with her workouts around the world. World. Cassie used that following to pursue another passion of hers. Fashion design. She created the clothing brand Popflex in 2016 with innovative designs blending comfort, functionality and style. Even Taylor Swift is a fan, which has helped the brand become even more popular. Cassie joins us now to talk about her journey from fitness YouTuber to fashion designer, and what she did to expand her brand beyond just workouts. Cassie, welcome to Business Awards.
- [36:49]
Cassie Ho
I am so excited to be here. I'm such a huge fan of the podcast.
- [36:53]
David Brown
I am so excited to have you too. As I understand it, you have a following of around 19 million these days. That's incredible. Tell us about that.
- [37:02]
Cassie Ho
Well, I'm very lucky that I am still around after having been in this since 2009. But you know, when I first started Blogilates, I had zero intention of building an audience or starting a brand. It really was just me, a local Pilates instructor, teaching to my 40 students. I had to move cross country for my first corporate job and my students were like, cassie, who else is going to teach us pop Pilates? And I was like, okay, well I'll film myself 10 minute video uploaded to this website called YouTube. And I put it up for them. And the next thing I know, instead of 40 views, I'm getting thousands of views and hundreds of comments. And now they're asking like, like, well, can you do an ab version and a butt version of this home workout? And I just kept listening to the comments and here we are today and there's this huge community of amazing women who may have started out with me doing home workouts. And now some of them have turned into customers buying Pop Flex your channel.
- [38:05]
David Brown
Blogilates is, I think, one of the first to really build a community on YouTube, specifically around workouts. Why did you choose YouTube as the platform? And I'm curious about the name too. How'd you come up with the name?
- [38:17]
Cassie Ho
I mean, I chose YouTube because I think I typed in video sharing, upload platform or something and it showed up. And I was like, okay, that one seems good. Any of us starting Channels back in the 2009s, the 2010s, we really were just doing it to connect with other people. There wasn't even AdSense or a way to make money. There weren't even brand sponsorships yet. And so truly, when we started Channels back then, it was to create those real connections in terms of my name. I mean, I started out as a blogger and I was teaching Pilates. So I put the two things together and my screen name. Essentially that's all it was at that time. My screen name became Blogilates.
- [38:57]
David Brown
I have to ask, was there a point at which you realized, wait a minute, this, this could be a full time thing, that this could actually be your, you know, career? It was not just, you know, first maybe paying the bills, but this could actually be lucrative, that you were onto something?
- [39:13]
Cassie Ho
Oh yeah, I remember it was back in like 2011, 2012, something like that. My corporate job didn't work. I moved back home, stayed with my parents, and I was on Facebook, which was really the only social media platform at that time. And you know, these fans, I guess that's what we were calling them, they were like, cassie, we, we want a shirt. And I was like, a shirt of what? And they were like, of Blogilates. Want blogilates on a shirt. And that was the very moment I realized, oh really? Blogilates isn't just my screen name. It now has become a brand that people are proud to wear. And so in that moment, we had this Facebook contest, design contest. We all ended up voting on one. Graphic design. I printed it on a shirt. And that was the very first Blogilates merchandise.
- [40:03]
David Brown
How did you navigate that transition from workout classes to actually designing and selling activewear with your line, popflux.
- [40:10]
Cassie Ho
So my childhood dream has always been to be a fashion designer.
- [40:14]
David Brown
Really.
- [40:14]
Cassie Ho
I am Vietnamese and Chinese. My parents are immigrants and. And if you know anyone from that type of a background, the only careers that are acceptable are doctor, lawyer, engineer, something like that. And my dad literally told me that if I'm not any of those three, then I will be a failure.
- [40:33]
David Brown
Oh my gosh.
- [40:35]
Cassie Ho
Yeah, it was so intense. And so I went to school, majored in biology, all of that. I was supposed to go pre med, but my soul always knew I wanted to design clothing. As a kid, I carried around, around a sketchbook. I made clothes for my friends, wearing Barbie dolls for myself. And so, you know, weirdly enough, through falling into YouTube and creating this community later on, when people asked me to make a shirt, that was the beginning of, oh, maybe I can connect this all back together. And so in 2016, I wanted to create my own clothing line. I wanted to wear my own things in my videos. And that's when I started Pop Flex. And it's been a long journey of learning because I did not have the formal education of how to do pattern making and all that kind of stuff, but because the design has always been about finding a solution to a problem, the designs really come out with soul, with the why. And along with that, because I am a content creator, I could tell the story of that design process. Now, for a lot of our designs, it can take anywhere from 12 months to three years. And so by the time that video comes out, I've already know what I'm going to be talking about. And so what's interesting here that I think you'll like is with my fitness videos, they were all horizontal, long form videos, 10 minutes plus sometimes up to 30 minutes. And then around 2020ish, which is when TikTok really took off. Vertical content was going wild. And around this time was also when I was like, I feel like I want to change, change my content to not just be fitness, but to show people the behind the scenes of what else I'm actually doing. I realized that people found these fashion videos very entertaining. And then my content naturally shifted to what it is now, which is all short form, vertical content, talking about my designs. And amazingly enough, and this again wasn't in the plan, sometimes these videos will go viral and sell the product within hours.
- [42:31]
David Brown
Where does the Blogilates brand fit in right now since you have so much going on?
- [42:36]
Cassie Ho
So there are two brands now. PopFlex is the brand that I started in 2016. It's my D2C, very innovative clothing line. Timelines are really just all ours. We can do anything that we want. Whereas when it comes to Blogilates, this is a new, more affordable brand that I launched exclusively at Target, that launched in January 2025 and that's been a huge success, success there. And that also came from the comments, people asking if I could create something that they could afford. And so when that launched, people were really, really excited about that.
- [43:10]
David Brown
Well, let's talk about Pop Flex now. I think. Was it around 2024 or so a certain well known celebrity was spotted wearing your designs and you reacted in a YouTube video. Let's listen.
- [43:23]
Lauren Thomas
I'm dying right now.
- [43:27]
Cassie Ho
It is being been my ultimate dream for Taylor to wear one of my designs.
- [43:33]
Lauren Thomas
And I cannot believe.
- [43:38]
David Brown
You seem just absolutely over the moon. Tell us more about how it felt to watch one of your personal icons wearing something you designed.
- [43:46]
Cassie Ho
Oh my goodness, I look. My top dream was to have Taylor Swift wear something of mine. I did not think it was going to happen on the launch day of the tortured poets, April 19, 2024. I will never forget that. I felt numb because I've been a huge fan of hers for years, since Teardrops on my Guitar. And I admire her as a singer, a songwriter, a businesswoman who solves a lot of problems in very creative ways. And so her wearing that skort, it just really meant so much to me.
- [44:19]
David Brown
That is so cool. What did it mean for the Popflex brand that's gotta given you a turbocharge?
- [44:25]
Cassie Ho
Oh my goodness. Well, within minutes, that particular skort, the Pirouette Skort and Digital Lavender sold out in. Yeah, it was insane. And then all the other colors of the Pirouette Squort started selling out. Magazines and publications started calling this like the Taylor Swift Skort, which was so cool.
- [44:44]
David Brown
That is.
- [44:44]
Cassie Ho
And it's been really cool to see people wear it to eras, to Disneyland. Like literally. I will never get over seeing someone in that or any of my designs in person.
- [44:53]
David Brown
Now, you ultimately phased out the workout portion of Blogilates. Why was that?
- [44:58]
Cassie Ho
You know, I never made an official video about this, but I'm glad that we're talking about it here. The fitness industry, I didn't realize it was so toxic until I took a hiatus. You know, in the beginning when I posted my first Pilates video, I thought my negative comments were going to be, oh, look at her form, her toes aren't pointed. But it turns out that a lot of the comments that I ended up getting were, were attacking my body, saying that I was too fat to teach or that I had no abs. No, but why was I even out here making videos? And it became content to attack me and I just felt like I didn't need that in my life anymore. Like, yes, I love Pilates, I love working out. I obviously still do it every single morning. But putting myself out there just to be attacked for other people's monetization was not healthy for my brain and my heart. And so. So I took a moment to take a break and look, I've never said that I'm not doing it again. I just need a moment. And the moment that I stopped making fitness videos, I never got a negative comment about my body again. It was like that switch turned off. And so there was something about just sharing the way that I worked out that made me a target to be attacked for the way that I physically looked. And I just really didn't need that in my life. Life.
- [46:19]
David Brown
You never said that you wouldn't go back and do it again. What would it take for you to maybe, maybe get back into that space?
- [46:27]
Cassie Ho
I mean, it's always been about following my heart. So when. When the heart says it's time, then it'll be time when I feel like I'm ready. And my. My. My skin thickness is a little stronger. Honestly, you know, I don't think it'll ever be that thick. I'm a very sensitive person. Then maybe, maybe I'll be back, but I'm not sure when. But I'm never not going to come back.
- [46:47]
David Brown
Back. Oh, I love that. Right? Does that make sense? Makes perfect sense. It makes absolutely perfect sense. You're always leaving that door open. I think that's really smart. Reflecting back on your journey, did you ever think when you started the free Blogilates workouts that you'd be where you are today?
- [47:03]
Cassie Ho
I never thought that putting up a pilates video on YouTube would lead to somehow Taylor Swift wearing one of my designs.
- [47:13]
David Brown
That.
- [47:13]
Cassie Ho
That connection was never made. But as a young child, I always, always knew that I was gonna do something really cool one day and I was gonna work towards that. I've always been an entrepreneur, and I'm just so grateful that I'm able to live my passion in my career all in one. And I just can't wait to keep doing this. It's so fun and stressful every single day.
- [47:37]
David Brown
Is there a Pop Flex studio in the future? Perhaps Workouts, activewear community? I don't know.
- [47:43]
Cassie Ho
You know, I have been thinking about that a lot because the thing too, with stores, you can't just have a piece of real estate where you just sell things off the floor. That's not enough anymore. It has to be a place for community building, to bring people together. You know, what they call a third space? Right. And so if I ever were to open a Pop Flex store, you would definitely be getting the healthy food aspect, a workout aspect, a place to meet other women aspects and bring people together. So I would love to. I don't know when, but maybe one day.
- [48:20]
David Brown
Cassie Ho is the founder of the fitness channel Blogilates and the mastermind behind the active wear brand Pop Flex. What an inspiring conversation. Cassie Ho, thank you so much for joining us on Business Wars.
- [48:32]
Cassie Ho
Thank you for having me.
- [48:33]
David Brown
Coming up on Business Wars, Athleisure is a multi billion dollar apparel category, but a few decades ago, yoga pants didn't even exist. Lululemon changed the industry forever. But can they hold on to their lead from Wondery? This is episode three of the Rise and Fall of Peloton for Business Wars. I'm your host David Brown Kelly. Kyle produced this episode. Our lead sound designer is Kyle Randall. Our producers were Tristan Donovan, our audio engineers Sergio Enriquez. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior producers are Jenny Bloom and Emily Frost. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie. For wondering in the 1880s, the lawless streets of Tombstone, Arizona were home to the most legendary gunfight in history. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Historytellers. We take you to the events, times and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles and our dreams. In our latest series, we follow the notorious Earp brothers as they take on a band of gunslinging hooligans intent on disrupting law and order. But tensions boiled over on October 26, 1881 when the Earps confronted the Clanton and McClurey gangs near the OK Corral Morale. In a hail of gunfire, three cowboys were killed, setting off a cycle of violence and retribution, transforming the Earps into both heroes and outlaws. Follow American Historytellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of American Historytellers. The shootout at the OK Corral early and ad free right now on Wondry.