Robert Gallery Shares The Mental Toll Of Football & Healing After NFL Career With Raiders | Bussin'

Summary

Bussin' With The Boys — Robert Gallery Shares The Mental Toll Of Football & Healing After NFL Career With Raiders

Episode Date: November 18, 2025
Guest: Robert Gallery
Hosts: Will Compton & Taylor Lewan
Runtime: ~2.5 hours

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Overview

This episode features a deep and honest conversation with Robert Gallery, former #2 overall NFL draft pick and Raiders offensive lineman, focusing on the mental and physical toll of professional football and his journey toward healing after his career. Gallery shares unfiltered stories about pressure, injuries, struggles with mental health post-NFL, and his life-altering experiences with psychedelic-assisted therapy. The Boys and Gallery dive into masculinity, identity after sports, suicide ideation, brain injury, family dynamics, and hope for other athletes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Robert Gallery's Early Football Journey

[42:10–59:00]

• Grew up in small-town Iowa, played at Iowa alongside his older brother, was around the program since childhood.
• Not heavily recruited; only had four offers (Iowa, Iowa State, Purdue, Northwestern).
• Came to Iowa as a 230-lb. tight end, switched to offensive tackle as a freshman.
• Rapid physical development: Bulked up to 320 lbs. through intense strength programs.
• Describes Coach Kirk Ferentz as genuine, consistent, and instrumental in his growth:

  “He hasn’t changed since 1999… just the most steady, genuine person you’ve ever met.” — Gallery [50:35]

2. Athleticism & College Glory

[62:00–70:05]

• Gallery was initially not NFL-focused, just “in the moment.” It wasn’t until after a breakout junior year and a conversation with Ferentz that he realized he was a top prospect.
• Shared the immense pressure and perfectionism that came once expectations and NFL draft talk entered the picture.

  “I could have 69 of 70 plays on film…I dominated… and had one bad one and it would ruin it for me. I’m supposed to be the guy that’s perfect, and it’s so unrealistic, but that’s how my mind [worked].” — Gallery [59:39]

3. NFL Transition & Raiders Years

[74:37–80:04]

• Drafted 2nd overall by the Oakland Raiders (after the Eli/Rivers/Chargers trade).
• Early years marked by joy in simply playing and getting paid, despite persistent team losing.
• Experienced five head coaches in seven years—a constant cycle of “starting over.”
• Pressure and performance expectations intensified by media, fans, and internal standards.
• Gallery describes the “weed out the weak” NFL environment and masking injuries:

  “You want to do well. But it was…I’ll admit I struggled that year… trying to do it a certain way, didn’t work… and I did not play well… media is coming on…and you want to win—and you don’t want to year after year be starting over.” [77:10]

4. Mental Toll, Injuries, & Masking Pain

[89:17–97:20]

• Began to suffer physically and mentally after years of surgeries, painkillers (Percocet, Toradol), and playing through trauma.
• Describes self-medicating with alcohol and pills (“30 beers and three Percocets” after a game [94:18]), normalized by NFL culture.
• Acknowledges the abusive pattern, but rationalized by the pressure to provide and play.
• Recounts mood swings, rage outbreaks at home, and growing darkness—culminating in an eventual breakdown:

  “I remember sitting down, and she’s like ‘are you okay?’ And I just start bawling, and I’m like, ‘I need help.’ Like, all this stuff had been going through my head… I thought I was losing my mind.” [103:14]

5. Reaching Rock Bottom and Identity Loss

[99:00–109:35]

• Post-retirement identity crisis:

  “Now you’re home and you’re watching your buddies still play… you try to figure out, what am I now?”

• Struggled with severe depressive episodes, suicidal ideation, and immense inward rage.
• Bluntly discusses moments of feeling like a burden and planning his death, feeling his family would be "better off" without him.

  “I wanted to be better. I was aware of this... When it started happening, that's when I reached out for help, and that's what started the journey.” [108:48]

6. The Turning Point: Brain Scan & Seeking Help

[106:11–110:04]

• Underwent a brain scan through a worker’s comp case, which confirmed massive damage.
• Emotional relief:

  “My wife is crying… and I’m laughing—she’s like, what the fuck are you laughing at? I’m not crazy. This is the reason.” [106:12]

• Received a diagnosis suggestive of CTE; neurologists warned him he’d become “a statistic” (i.e., suicide) without action.
• Began using every tool recommended: hyperbaric chamber, IV infusions, therapy, sleep, meditation—anything in hopes of getting better.

7. Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy: Ibogaine & DMT

[120:22–157:19]

• Found hope through Marcus Luttrell’s podcast, learned about ibogaine therapy, and with help from VetSolutions, joined a group session in Mexico with high-profile veterans.
• Underwent a profound 12-hour ibogaine experience and 5-MeO-DMT session, both physically and psychologically grueling.

“I went to the white light…my God is there and I’m talking to God. I lose it—I’m like, I’m a failure, a terrible father, a terrible husband, send me to hell. And then it was just calm and this weight was lifted off.” [142:04]

• Immediate clarity, loss of rage, no anxiety, no desire for alcohol, and a drastic return of presence and self-control. The ringing in his ears vanished, brain fog cleared.
• Realized the journey isn’t a “magic pill” but provided tools and a new capacity for handling mental health and life.

8. Relapse, Second Treatment, & Sustainable Healing

[151:15–157:19]

• Four months of near-perfect relief, then gradual return of some symptoms; a second treatment (2023) revealed new insights.
• In one vision, saw the devastation his suicide would have caused his family:

  “I died...I saw what it did to my family... Now, I know, no matter what, on my worst day, I’m better off here. My family needs me.” [152:20]

• Now has tools, resilience, and clarity—accepts “normal” negative emotions, but is aware and doesn’t spiral.

9. Advocacy, New Identity & Helping Others

[166:50–173:58]

• Founded Athletes for Care, supporting athletes struggling with post-career issues and connecting them to healing modalities, including ibogaine.
• Describes $50 million in research funding via Texas, promising early science, and the incredible success rate against addiction and suicidal ideation, especially in veterans.
• Stresses the crucial importance of vulnerability and storytelling for breaking stigma among athletes.
• Reveals hope for athlete wives and families as well—his wife is sharing her story too.

10. Revisiting Football, Community & Legacy

[178:36–184:13]

• Relationship to football is much healthier; can now enjoy watching games with his son and appreciates his Iowa legacy with new clarity.
• Expresses pride in his actual accomplishments ("one of eight guys in the ring of honor in Kinnick Stadium" [186:18]), while recognizing that outcome is shaped by many uncontrollable factors.
• Stresses the need to accept the ups and downs:

  “If you gave everything you had to it then there’s nothing to be upset about.” — Taylor Lewan [184:51]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the toll of expectation:

  "Now that. That's a new goal... and anything that affected it would affect me for days and weeks." — Gallery [61:48]

• On self-medicating:

  "30 beers and three Percocet, four Percocet, this is going to make me go to sleep. Right? So something." — Gallery [94:18]

• On the darkness of mental illness:

  "I wanted to strangle her... I was so angry that she changed from wanting to sit in the house inside to outside. And I had no idea why." — Gallery [103:06]

• On finally asking for help:

  “I just start bawling, and I'm like, I need help. Like, because all this stuff had been going through my head and I hadn't told her...I thought I was losing my mind.” [103:14]

• On psychedelic therapy:

  "It melts you into the floor...I felt like I was up in space, like, with all these lights coming at me...a continual movie of my life.” [136:31]

• On DMT and ego death:

  “I experienced death...I saw God...and then it was just calm and this weight was lifted off me...and then it was this overwhelmingly peaceful feeling…this negative self talk was gone.” [142:04]

• On the biggest takeaway:

  "On my worst day, I’m still better off here. My family needs me. And so that's what this experience showed me." [156:10]

• On being present in life:

  “There’s been instances where I’ve been in the moment for days on end... to be able to just be in the moment with whatever’s going on... that’s everything.” [191:34]

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Description | |---------|-------------| | 42:10 | Robert Gallery joins, Big Ten memories, upbringing & Iowa roots | | 50:35 | Praise for Kirk Ferentz, Iowa strength program, position switch | | 59:39 | Pressure & perfectionism after NFL expectations increased | | 74:37 | NFL draft, Oakland Raiders chaos, playing through pain | | 89:17 | Cumulative surgeries, masking pain, and emergence of mental health symptoms | | 94:18 | Drinking/Painkiller self-medication after games | | 99:00 | Loss of NFL identity, anger at home, rock bottom moment, suicidal ideation | | 103:14 | Breaks down to wife, asks for help | | 106:11 | Brain scan confirms damage — huge relief: “I’m not crazy” | | 120:22 | Discovery of ibogaine & VetSolutions, commitment to try psychedelics | | 136:31 | Ibogaine trip: “continual movie” of life, discarding trauma, embracing positive| | 142:04 | DMT/ego death: “I experienced death…I was at peace…negative self-talk was gone” | | 148:47 | Reintegration, new presence, sustainable healing and relapse, second treatment | | 166:50 | Advocacy: Athletes for Care, Texas research, outreach to athletes | | 191:34 | Final question: What would Gallery do anything for? “To live in the moment” |

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The Boys’ Tone & Episode Flow

• Candid, unguarded, and empathetic: This is among the most vulnerable and personal episodes of "Bussin' With The Boys," with frequent moments of dark humor, emotional storytelling, and honest admissions.
• The conversation covers both light (football tall tales, locker-room culture, playful banter) and deeply serious—pain, medication, rage, family fear, and confronting death.
• The Boys create a safe environment while prodding for real talk:

  "I'm glad you asked it because I'm thinking, I wonder how I can ask it." — Taylor on asking blunt suicide question [109:01]

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Mental health struggles are real and common—even among peak performers and “warriors.” Masking pain and denying problems is destructive.
• Psychedelic-assisted therapy is providing hope and measurable progress for ex-athletes facing issues tied to brain injury and identity loss.
• Gallery’s story is a testament to radical honesty, persistence, and the importance of asking for help.
• Athletes for Care and similar organizations are on the frontlines—other ex-players and families should know they are not alone, and healing is possible.

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How To Connect & Get Help

• Athletes for Care: Resources, connections, and support for former pro athletes struggling with health or transition.
• VetSolutions: Psychedelic therapy for veterans, accepting inquiries from athletes.
• In Waves and War (Netflix documentary) — covers ibogaine and similar healing journeys.

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If you are struggling or know someone who is, resources are available: Don't suffer in silence.

Transcript

[A]

All right, we're good. Be like busing with the boys.

[B]

Hanging with the fellas.

[A]

Betting on a game.

[B]

No woman's gonna tell us what to do. And I've been over here just drinking beer and making that noise, baby. I'm hanging with the fellas.

[A]

Busting with the boys, bro.

[C]

Welcome to another episode of Busting with the Boys. If you are in the car right now listening, please make sure that you are subscribed to our channels. Whether listening on Spotify, Apple, Amazon on audio, make sure you're following or subscribed. And if you're watching the boys on YouTube. Right. Just again, we encourage you to subscribe. Helps the boys out a lot. We got a lot to talk about. We got a lot to talk about. We have an awesome interview with Robert Gallery.

[B]

Awesome interview.

[C]

Yeah. His journey, mental health, all the stuff. It is, it is very much worth your two and a half hours of time. We'll be breaking down our weekends, having some fun with some spicy road tear talk. Best compliments to your wife. Some final bites before we sign off and get into the interview.

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[A]

Yeah. Was in New Orleans.

[C]

How was nola?

[A]

I just feel it was cool. I was visiting one of my buddies that used to live here, but I got. Just going back. I know I didn't get sick, but I had like PTSD from you guys being sick. So I was like this place just.

[C]

Just kind of like stayed away from the oysters.

[A]

Yeah. Just tried to eat like the most bland food. No, I mean I have a very bland diet to begin with.

[C]

She get chicken fingers and fries?

[A]

Basically. Yeah. But it was just like I'm just uncomfortable in that city.

[C]

Brought my own PB&J.

[B]

I'm just uncomfortable in that city.

[A]

But it was great to see like I saw some old buddies. So it was. It was a lot of fun.

[B]

Is NOLA the best, dirtiest city in.

[A]

The U.S. it's so dirty.

[C]

The dirty ones. Yeah. Number one dirtiest city in the U. S. I'd have to say New Orleans. It's definitely had like the biggest and the most recognition.

[A]

I feel like of the dirty boys. Broadway can be considered pretty dirty city.

[B]

I wouldn't even put those in the same. No. Yeah. Broadway's a street. Nashville's a clean city. There's like a smell everywhere. There's a fragrance. Yeah.

[C]

It's the most popular, dirtiest city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you could throw like a Portland in there. But like I'm. I have no desire to go to Portland. But you know.

[A]

How's St. Louis?

[B]

St. Louis is clean.

[C]

It's got some dirty parts. But yeah, for the most part, I wouldn't say St. Louis is close to New Orleans.

[A]

Philly's pretty dirty.

[C]

Philly. Philly seems like a dirty little.

[A]

It's just gritty. Like I feel like Philly's just more gritty than it is dirty, if that makes sense. Yeah.

[C]

A lot of grit fighter mentality there.

[B]

Probably give the nod to New Orleans.

[C]

Dirtiest destination city in the world.

[B]

The heat really keeps it.

[C]

Yeah. Nice and dirty.

[A]

The weather down there was actually pretty Good. It was like 75, 80, but it wasn't humid at all, so it felt really good.

[B]

Oh, that's nice. That's nice. Would you do anything special this weekend?

[C]

Yeah, we celebrated little Scotty Jolie Turn one. She turned one last Wednesday 12th. Yeah, November 12th. She turned. She turned one last Wednesday. We had my. My dad in town with Stephanie. We have my brothers in town with their significant others. Cody, by the way, Cody just got engaged. My brother, so have a. Have a sister in law. And then, yeah, Charles parents. Charles parents came over. So it was very, very rare moment to have the grandparents, the brothers, everybody kind of like all in town.

[B]

Nice little dynamic, everybody hanging out.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Wyatt is on the clock. Why? It's on the clock. Yeah, I was asking too.

[B]

What you about to do, boy? Did his girl come.

[A]

Why?

[C]

For the trip.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Morgan, what'd y' all have on the menu?

[C]

Charcuterie board.

[B]

Oh, a cha board.

[C]

Some cookies, a smash cake.

[B]

What's a smash cake?

[C]

You can just smash and eat with your hands? Apparently. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, that's a one year old's birthday.

[C]

Scotty was very weary of the smash cake. She didn't really. We were trying to like put the frosting and stuff in her mouth to taste it, but she. She didn't care about the smash cake. She wanted the. The rich crackers that were close by. Good. Yeah.

[B]

It's strong.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I know I've talked about this quite a bit on this show, but the addiction my oldest child has to sugar needs to be studied. She is so obsessed with it. We try to like keep her away from sugar for the first three years. Was pretty good about it. And I think it just, it just harbored everything because it is. It is insane to watch that minutes right now. A menace about it. She's a menace. Great kid, outstanding individual. But it's like, it's crack. Sugar is crack to that child. She's too old for you to throw. I don't know if there's like these like hacks where you can like put an ingredient on candy, like whether it's like a vinegar substance where like she would have a bad reaction. So she's like, I don't like candy. That's it. That's a. Yeah, she's too old for that. She's too.

[C]

Set her up.

[B]

She's too quick. Yeah, yeah, she's. Yeah, she's too aware of what's kind of going on right now. Oh, Wynn, Rebel. Dude. My weekend. I mean, dude, 48 hours. We flew Wednesday flew to New York. Flew back Thursday morning, Spent lunch with my family, Flew to Arizona Thursday night. Had to handle a little something something over there. But after I handled that something something, me, Tanner, his wife, his wife's kids, Jack and Scotland, which, by the way, I have no idea what I did to those kids. I'm their favorite person in the entire world. I am their favorite person.

[C]

How old are they?

[B]

Scotland is six, five or six. And then Jack is in that three, four, Cate story. But they're just. They stayed up late to see me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, we play like they had a ball, and it's just like. It's just. It's the power of yes with them, dude. You say yes, you play with them. They do things that their parents get mad about, but I'm just like, hey, we can kind of do whatever around here, right?

[C]

You have the look of. If I was ages 4 to 9, I would be like, yo, this guy is the coolest person to ever exist.

[B]

Let's go.

[C]

Taller than everyone. He has tattoos, and you just never know what's going to come from. Gives great high fives.

[B]

You just gotta find, like, with the younger kids, especially when starting get out of the age where I'm like, I gotta actually be cool for her, too. So that's a ticking time bomb for us. But everybody under, like, the age of eight, I do. I find one thing that they're obsessed with, and I just beat that into the ground. With Rue, it's the high five.

[C]

Oh, it's high fives.

[B]

Yeah, it's high five. With Scotland, Tanner's daughter, stepdaughter. It's cartwheels. Me and her trying to watch me do the splits. If I tried the splits in front of her, she thinks it's the funniest thing in the world. And Jack's just a homie, bro. Little Jack, he's awesome. May sit there and be like, man, I kind of want a boy. Yeah, kind of want a boy. He's a little psycho. But we did that. We go to Zips, ma'. Am still.

[C]

Yes, sir. Photo looked like it was.

[B]

It was the best I've had. Wow. It was the best I have ever had.

[C]

Zips just continues to exceed expectations.

[B]

Continue. It just keeps on, dude. Just when you think, like, we've had enough of it, I'm sure it's gonna not taste as good this time. It is. I go, not that thing out. I'm in a full suit. And it's Tanner's sister Valentina. Her kid Madeline's there with both her kids and Tanner was doing this, like, charity golf thing. I don't think there's something that does more charity work than Tanner. I don't know if he ever actually raises money, but he's always on, like, a hunt or a golf thing or whatever, but he's always doing that. I get the zips. Waiter comes by. We exchange pleasantries about our mustaches. He's got one. I compliment him, he gives it back. I said, yeah, I was actually fishing for one, so thank you. And then I give him the whole spiel. Buddy, I don't live here anymore, but I used to live here. This is what I need. If you could just say, make it with love to the chef, that'd be incredible. And he really did it. He truly did. And it was. You gotta go back, buddy. It's so good. It's so good. And my foot was starting to feel a little bit better, so I treated myself a little bit.

[C]

As he's sitting on it, he's got the. Bro, get the boot on.

[B]

Yeah, this foot, man. Get back Friday. Put the. I'm like, hey, I've been traveling so much, Jones. Like, hey, the next two days, like, put your foot up and just rest your foot. Like, we have to figure out what the hell's going on with this thing. So I rested for a couple of days. Sunday night, my daughter has a rehearsal or not a rehearsal. Like, I don't know, this little thing. She started a band with two other girls, and they, like, wrote their own songs, and this lady helped them write songs. Ladies painting the piano, the ukulele, while these kids are, like, going back and forth singing. Not bad. I will say they are not that. It's not a bad club there. After that, we go to Hue Babies. And I'm starting to feel like, okay, I can actually walk. I can't, like, press off my foot, but I'm, like, walking without a limp. And I'm like, a little milkshake. Kind of sound nice right now. Once again, just falling into the trap that got me in the situation again. And, buddy, I woke up this morning at 3:00am Foot ballooned up. Go to stand up to take a piss, and it's just hell. It is just hell. I've lost 13 pounds. I am, I am prey. I am I. I am not I. At one point in time, boys, I was a highly successful Pro bowl football player, possibly arguably the best tackle in the NFL. Now I am just less than I am prey.

[C]

You're shell yourself.

[B]

I'm a shell of myself. If a large gust of wind Takes off when I'm outside. I might fly away. Haven't worked out in three weeks. I look at my body and I'm just like, what the fuck is this? I look in the mirror, I'm just like, what are you doing here, huh? You're just oozing away. And I am, dude, I am getting to the point where I'm just. I'm just always in pain. I am always in pain now and it just sucks and it won't go away and I can't fix it. I've been on pain pills for like 12 days straight. That's like kind of tight because you're going to feel kind of nice at certain times, but other times, like, I. I've been through this game before. The come down is horrible. My personality is like, how do we get more. And so I'm just like fighting the good fight. And I don't like where I'm at right now. November 2025, I don't like where I'm at.

[C]

You got one week to get it together, buddy.

[B]

Yeah, I'm. I'm in the movie Saw. I'm in the movie 127 Hours and there's a knife staring at me right now. And I'm like, do I just cut my foot off? It might be better than what is happening right now. It is awful, bro. It's awful. And it sucks too. And be like, oh, Taylor, oh no. What happened to your foot? You're in a boot and I have to go. Had gout. No, I don't have gout, but they think I had gown and I rolled my foot and then I tore. Looking at my foot, I don't even know if I actually tore. Look at my foot. I'm just like kind of sitting there. Be like, they think this, so I'm just going to say it like that so I look like less of a bitch. There was a time, dude, when you would have a boot on after a football game. And it was low key, A badge of honor. Like, yeah, I played through it. I'm going to play next week. I think about junior year, Michigan State had a. Had a high ankle sprain and a broken hand. And I was at the bar at Rick's American Cafe slugging beers in a boot and a. A cast on my wrist. And there was a piece of me that's like, you earned this beer. And what are you gonna do next week? You're gonna Play. Now I'm 34 and my kids are like chomping at the bit, being like, hey, dad, Play with us. If you could play Bergen with us. Just go on your knees. And I'm like. I just truly. I can't do it. And I'm. I'm on the couch. I'm withering away. I'm slowly deteriorating. I take so much pride, dude, on taking care of my body because I've taken so many shots in the head and I played so recklessly in football. I know there's a vegetative state in my future. And so I just try to stay ahead of the chains. And here I am with a fucking boot on, man.

[A]

Already there.

[C]

Damn.

[B]

Mitch. A vegetative state is somebody that's in the hospital can't, like non responsive.

[A]

I didn't mean to say you're already. I said you're. It's accelerating.

[B]

Yeah, it's accelerating. And I like to think I am very conscious about my health. 100% what I eat. It's how I. How I train. Like, stay ahead the chains, cold tubs, hot tubs, saunas. Get a little nid every once in a while.

[C]

Like, it's crazy to think a milkshake can take you out, bro. Damn. Like, that's where you are, man.

[B]

I know, dude. I know. And it's like everything you just said hurt, but it's like he's. What? What am I mad about? Because there's truth. And that's what sucks, bro.

[C]

I think you see how far you can go.

[B]

No, dude, let me tell you something. No, like, I like you guys. Have you guys had gout? Has anybody here had gout? Who? He had it when we were at the beach one time. And what did he say? I honestly didn't take it seriously. Because when your buddies hurt, you're like, thank God. Yeah, you're being a. I know, but then I'm hearing it from you and I'm like, maybe I should have taken it more seriously.

[C]

Dude, people should add some more empathy. Yeah.

[B]

People in the comments who are listening this right now. If you've had gal, please explain to these boys what it's like.

[C]

People are, people are. I've been seeing people. Oh, there's a lot of help. Brought their arm around.

[A]

I thought it was like a World War II disease when I was first.

[B]

Dude, it is. Literally. It's the people call it the king's disease. Like in medieval times. That's legit how it looks, by the way, except for the dude's left foot is crazy as well.

[C]

You should drop a feet pick for the people.

[B]

Dude. In medieval times, kings and like higher end people in these worlds would get them because they wouldn't exercise, they'd eat red meat all the time. And so it was literally like a distinguished disease. It was, they called the King's disease. And I hate it, man. I, I literally, I feel so defeated. I feel so defeated right now. And I just don't, I don't want to be the guy that's on an antibiotic every day, wake up with my Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday pills and I have to open it up, take it out and take that. And if I don't take it, then I get sick or whatever. That's the start of the end. Like, how do I fix this? How do I get it right? I've worked so hard and I know this is. Listen boys, you guys don't deserve me just vomiting on you guys right now, but give me some time here. I have worked so hard since my football careers ended of trying to get my gut health back in order because of all the steroid packs and all the pills and all the things the, the, the tortle shots. Over and over and over again, I've done, I've tried so hard to fix those things. I've taken a steroid pack in the last couple weeks. I'm on. It's this uric acid thing right now. I'm taking tramadol and I'm just looking at myself like, bro, you're going to your gut up again. If not, it's already up and it sucks onward. Somebody else tell me something bad that's happened to them recently.

[C]

Jp, I'll say this. Yeah, I mean back's not, back's not all the way there. But I'll say this. Since 8:30 this morning, I've had 12 missed calls from spammers. Like there is a, there's an epidemic right now by spam callers.

[B]

Good.

[C]

And I don't know what to do.

[B]

One, two minutes ago, and I've had four since I've been on this bus.

[C]

I've blocked like 40 numbers and they just keep coming.

[B]

Bro, I feel better that you're getting them, but all weekend I legitimately probably got 30 plus spam calls, messages galore. And I'm like, did I, did I enroll in something where they, they ship my number out? It is so frustrating. You know what the problem is too, is if you, I heard if you ignore it, it's actually better than blocking it because if you block it, they know that's an active number, so they go and send it off to other places.

[C]

I heard good intel.

[B]

I heard something to think about. But, hey, thank you. I know you guys are dealing with a lot now too, and I didn't.

[C]

Want this whole podcast. Annoying, bro.

[B]

Yeah, I bet. I bet it sucks. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. It's probably the worst thing going on right now for people, for sure.

[B]

Besides gout.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, having to ignore my phone and put them on silence, send them the voicemail.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right before the holiday. Right before the holidays.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

It's frustrating, man. It's annoying.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But, yeah, that's. That's probably the worst thing going on right now that I'm dealing with. I think Scotty could be. Is there such thing as, like a 12 month sleep regression?

[B]

Yeah, let's talk about it.

[C]

There's always some sleep regression.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So like six times trying to, you know, just quiet her down, calm her down. Like, dude, why are you yelling, bro? Like, get with your right.

[B]

Figure it the out, man.

[C]

How far away is she from talking?

[A]

When do kids start talking?

[B]

She should be getting going.

[C]

She gets dad. Dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Gaga.

[B]

Lady Gaga. Big fan of her.

[C]

She can go. She can do the snake noise. So seems like we're close. She's fluent, dude.

[B]

Willow was talking quick. Like, if I had Willow first and then Win second, I'd be looking at one. What's going on here? But because I had Win, that will was just like kind of. They're always around each other. Started talking real fast. Start walking real fast. It's dope that you got Scotted to one, though. I feel like this year's flown by for y'. All.

[C]

It's a celebration for parents, man. Get to kid. Get the kid to survive for a year.

[B]

Yeah, you've made it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, at this point, it's on them. Yeah, you just gotta.

[C]

Hey, she can walk now.

[B]

Yeah. Start paying some bills, make a sandwich, dude. Get a job. Those types of things. But yeah, dude, gout.

[C]

Still doubtful.

[B]

I'm still doubtful. And it's just like, I just want to feel good, dude. I just want to feel good. Have I not earned that? And then Jared's dumbass, he go. I walk in and I'm like, hey, guys, I'm in such a bad mood today that actually I'm in a good mood. Like, it's. It's reversed me. And J.R. goes, isn't there like a super rich hospital you can go to that fixes it? I go, jared, would you think there's like some sort of illuminate, like, cloaked group of people? I just go drink some child's blood and all of a sudden it Gets fixed. Because if there is, point me in that direction, dude. I need to fix this. In his mind, though, he legitimately believes there is that hospital. No doubt.

[A]

He said.

[C]

He said that to you, and then.

[A]

He was still standing 10 toes on it. There is one.

[B]

Jared and I, man, we've had a little bit of back and forth the last week or so.

[C]

There's something out there.

[B]

There's got to be.

[C]

There has to be.

[B]

If somebody has an Illuminati type of crew that is interested in having me be a part of it, and I am the most vulnerable I could be right now.

[C]

It exists for sure.

[B]

I got to believe.

[C]

Like Brad Pitt, bro.

[B]

How's Brad Pitt look that good?

[C]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

Saying I took a little selfie video this morning. Like a victory. Hey, Victory Monday. Got myself a black coffee, Michigan hats, they're on sale ball, all that thing. I'm looking at myself in the selfie video thing, and I'm like, look how old you look, dude. You haven't slept eight hours in three weeks. Like a full eight hours.

[C]

You look good.

[B]

You look good, buddy. I feel.

[C]

Trying to give you some optimism.

[B]

Thank you. I feel like, though slowly withering away. You cannot cure gout.

[C]

You can. Not yet, bro. Not yet.

[B]

No.

[C]

You could be the first. Can you go back to that?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Jack. Click off that. You're on the uric acid. Are you staying hydrated?

[B]

I could use more.

[C]

Let's get some more high purine foods in your diet.

[B]

What's a. What is purine? What is that?

[C]

Who knows? Sounds like dog food.

[B]

Purina Taylor said something to me the other day. She goes, have you been drinking more type of water? She's like, if someone does Kangen water. The alkaliz ball, they said they had a gout, and then it went away. And I'm like, dude, I'm all about unique styles of health and wellness. I'm big into the juices and the turmerics and all that stuff. But my mental headspace, where I'm at, I'm thinking, what the are you talking about, dude? What? What? Water microplastics.

[C]

We've crossed the line with waters. There's way too many waters that exist. Too many waters. Too many waters.

[B]

I'd love to get a kink in water system in my house, but I need it. I need it.

[C]

You could probably get it.

[B]

Probably just point me in the direction that Illuminati crew and I'll get that done. Says best foods for gout. Cherries and vitamin c. Coffee, skim milk, water. Okay, good. I'll lose 13 more pounds the next week.

[C]

Get you some cherries, man.

[B]

Yeah, I do. I used to take tart tart cherry pills, and I've recently just reordered it. But it's like I haven't had meat like red meat in three weeks. Two weeks, whatever it is. I just don't understand, man. Yeah, I don't understand.

[C]

You'll get there.

[B]

You think so?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like this camp, maybe because you've had.

[C]

You've had a few situations just with your foot. Because I want to say you had something going on. Even when you were playing on that last year, your foot was like.

[B]

That was my first bout of gout.

[C]

Yeah. So it's. What was the. When was the last one?

[A]

Was.

[C]

How long ago was that? Well, a couple years.

[B]

This is my third season not playing football.

[C]

Yeah. So three years ago. You've had some episodes. And as somebody too like you, you take care of yourself as much as anybody. So knowing that it's like a diet type thing, it's very surprising.

[B]

I know. Here's what I have to do, dude. I truly have to understand that my life of eating junk food, it has to be over in order to be happy. And that sucks because I have to reroute my brain. Like, Thanksgiving is right around the corner. I'm terrified. I'm terrified of our Thanksgiving Day.

[A]

One day.

[C]

It was one day, dude.

[B]

It was one day yesterday, dude. I'm not joking, Mitch. I was on the ups. I was like, oh, I might not wear a boot to work tomorrow. I might be. I might be. I might put my Chucks back on. I might put my Vans back on. That's how good I was feeling. I'm out there playing air hockey with my youngest dummy there. But, like, we're getting. We're getting after having a good time. And, bro, do you think your.

[A]

Those shoes are. Could be a contributor.

[C]

The shoes could be a factor.

[B]

That's a structural thing, though. But I've been doing it my whole life. Like, I have flat feet. It's not like I need arch support. I have no arch in my foot. I have no arch. Yeah, a little flippers, bro. Will loves talking about my thumbs and my feet, bro. Yes, you're a significant factor, dude. No, you might have to get some, like, hokas or something.

[C]

Yeah, bro. Get some old guy shoes, man. Get them plow. Start walking. Yeah, get some monarchs.

[B]

I remember, dude. I remember being at Michigan and the trainers. I was having foot pain because I was wearing Adidas shoes. I didn't know at the time, but my freshman year of college football, they're like, hey, I think the problem is you're wearing vans all the time. Like, you shouldn't be wearing vans. You need something with more support. And I think I was like, I'd rather kill myself basically, than not wear vans. And here I am, dude, 34 years old, and I have to, like, you tell me I can't wear the number one thing I associate myself with as far as, like, clothing goes.

[A]

Would you rather stick with vans and still have foot issues or have to change up your style?

[B]

And, bro, it sounds like I'd rather change up my style. I can't live like this, dude. I cannot live like this.

[A]

Your answer.

[B]

Thanks, Mitch. I know that's. I'm sorry, man. That's not on you, man. I'm just.

[A]

No, it's okay. I. We were talking earlier, but you called.

[B]

Me a vegetable, like, five minutes ago. You're already there.

[A]

I. I phrased that wrong. I said you're. It's getting closer. But what we were saying earlier this morning, it's like you're in such a bad mood that it's almost like. Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, almost. Actually. It's funny to me where I'm at.

[A]

Yeah. But, like, just know there's no. We're all on your side. If you need anything, let us know here.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. You guys are. You guys are on my team. And that actually really means a lot because I feel so alone right now, dude. I'm fighting this fire. So alone right now. Yeah, it's awful.

[C]

Should we get into some spicy road to your talk? Some best compliments to give your significant other?

[B]

Nothing transitions better from gout than that. So, yeah, let's do it.

[C]

Well, maybe some optimism, you know, throw out some ideas. Just get out of the gal conversation. You're not just feeling bad the whole time.

[B]

Let's get out of there. Are we going to make our own together? Like, we're all going to think tank this one?

[C]

Yeah, I think we can. We can all throw stuff out there. I think you look gorgeous. That could be on the list, right? Tier three?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, here's, I think three that come to mind. Oh, go ahead. You look stunning. You look gorgeous.

[B]

But here, I like those. This is where I think it takes it a step above, like, you're in a regular conversation. Like, you get home from work and, hey, how was your day? And she just starts talking like, hey, by the way, you look outstanding today. Like, you. You look really good. And she's like, kind of, like, throwing back up. She goes, really? You're like, yeah. Like, why would I just say that?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, smooth. Yeah. That to me, operation. That happens, like, five times a week at my house.

[C]

I like. I like looking at you on Be like, that ass is looking, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll have to deal with that. That thing looks crazy back there.

[C]

And I don't know if she likes it, but in my mind, I'm thinking this is a huge compliment. Like, she'll be right. You know, I might down from putting Rue or Scotty down. She might be finishing up in the kitchen. I'll just, like, walk up, say she's at the sink. I'll just walk up behind her, just whisper in her ear, like, I need that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then to do a little dry hump.

[B]

Yeah, we'll just. Just press it on her real quick. Put it on her head.

[C]

Yeah. She'll be brushing her.

[B]

Zero sensation for them at all. Like, the right cheek.

[C]

If I catch her, like, putting a dish in the dishwasher, like, brushing her teeth, I'll just walk up behind, grab her hips, and kind of dry hump her a couple times.

[B]

Dude.

[C]

Yeah. We're about to have a mug shot out there for real, dude. Hey, to the married. To the married, man. You guys don't. You guys don't, you know, spontaneously dry. You hump your wife every now and then.

[B]

No.

[C]

Clothes. Look at that. Boy crazy. You don't do that.

[B]

I do, dude. Like the. You know in high school when, like, you, like, are cuddling with a girl, whatever. And you're clearly hard as a rock. Clearly. And, like, you think this is a good idea for me to press my hips and do them as much as possible so they know, like, the options there if you want it. I still love doing that. I still love being a cuddle and just be kind of chubbed up and just be like. And it's got to be so annoying to them. I'm just. You feel it.

[C]

But what's the compliment you're giving her while you're doing it?

[B]

Yeah, you got.

[A]

You. You do this.

[B]

He's giving. Nine years married. Nine years married. Still got it. You still give me that, which sucks about this show, is I know that Taylor's grandfather, Taylor's dad, he listens to the show. Like, Chuck listens to show religiously. So, Chuck, I like to apologize, but I do do that.

[A]

So is that, like, a compliment you give that you still got it?

[B]

Yeah, that's a. That's A. That's a body language compliment. Yeah. That's a tier 2. Actions speak louder than words. I feel like a really good one, too, is noticing a haircut or new nails. Oh, yes. Yeah. Or clothing. Just any. Anything that, like, they have gone out of their way to get done. That goes a long way with women. Because for guys, it's like, we're happy that you're happy, but, you know, no, we're not getting pedicures and manicures, you know, as frequently. Unless you. If you want eyebrows, eyelashes, you're right, too.

[C]

Especially clothing. They get something new. Like, Charl had a jacket going on. I'm like, yo, I mess with that jacket.

[B]

Noticing it before they have you see the different thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think is where you hit the home run. Hell yeah, dude.

[C]

That's a good stuff right there, Jack.

[B]

Good stuff.

[C]

Sitting. Hit a new. A little, like, hair dress combo on Saturday, and I was like, God dang. Okay, I see you. And just that you could tell it.

[A]

Went a long way.

[C]

God dang. Okay, I see you. I need that on the list as well. God damn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love that.

[C]

Well, Clump, you got one to add to the list. Outside of the dry humping, my big one is, like, if Lynn says she has, like, a busy day, I have to do this, this, or this when.

[A]

I get home, I'm.

[B]

I try hit back on those topics.

[C]

Like, oh, wow, like, it's nice and clean in here. It smells good.

[B]

Just kind of compliment, like, things you stress.

[C]

Things she was stressed about.

[B]

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Remembering.

[C]

Remembering.

[B]

Yeah, just like.

[C]

Like appreciating the little things that happen around the house.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys don't like that one? You guys? No, no, no, no, I do. I'm thinking in my head, like, yesterday. Ds like, hey, like, I feel like I've been like, a single parent for the last couple weeks. And I'm like, hey, you really have. And I cannot thank you enough.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For how I've had to deal with this. And it's really. I haven't been able to do a whole lot of. So that's really big of you. And you could just tell she was like, she needed the acknowledgment, which I think we all need it sometimes. It was big.

[C]

Yeah. Before we hop off, the world needs to know Clump had an aura dump.

[A]

On me just a second ago.

[C]

He has a pizza named after him in his hometown. His local pizza spot. It's. It's a special pizza.

[B]

It's called.

[C]

Yeah. The Clump pizza. It's buffalo chicken pizza, but instead of buffalo sauce, it is mango habanero sauce.

[B]

On the pizza, you can get a special.

[C]

You got a pizza named after you back every now and then. It's in the rotation.

[B]

I'll show you a picture of it.

[C]

Oh, you were him back in the day.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[C]

Oh, you were him. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Anybody else? No, no, no, no. Hey. God dang. Okay, I see you. This is gonna turn so poorly bad of how it happened. It's not because of my high school football playing days. It's because my family goes there every Friday, and they just love our family.

[B]

So, like.

[C]

Order the pizza. And he's like, no one ever orders this. This is awesome. It's great. So they put it as a special.

[B]

And it, like, sold out. So we always joke. That was all. Like, I kind of created my own.

[C]

Yeah, you guys did, man. That ain't a joke.

[A]

That ain't no joke. That's real spiel.

[C]

That's legacy. It's from eating pizza, though. It's not from, like, anything.

[B]

Yeah. What do you love? You never work a day in your life like you've done something amazing.

[C]

You support the community. Hey, Universal, shout out to Catacorn.

[A]

I'm sure Will would love to have a pizza named after him at home team.

[C]

Would love that.

[B]

He's on Twitter every Friday. Go, man. Pizza Friday.

[C]

Yeah. Home team.

[B]

We'll be back over Thanksgiving.

[C]

I'll send you a picture of it. We're gonna go there.

[B]

Nice. Nice. I also. Something named after me. All right, Onward.

[C]

What do you got named after Brown Jug?

[B]

Southwest. The Southwest Burger.

[C]

Tell us about the story, man. Let's hear the legacy.

[B]

Perry. You guys know Perry and I play football there, and they're like, taylor, one Southwest Burger. That's what it is. That's it.

[C]

That's awesome, dude.

[B]

No, I think. I think.

[C]

Hey, that's awesome, man. Nice.

[B]

Yeah. Hell, yeah, dude.

[A]

That's aura.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you, bro, Very much.

[C]

Is it still there?

[B]

I don't know. That's a good question. I like to think so. I like to think so.

[A]

McDonald's.

[B]

What time does Nebraska and Penn State play this week?

[C]

Night game.

[B]

Ah, so we hope to be able to stream that as well.

[C]

Yeah, we'll be on the stream. I'll be. I'll be balls deep in that Nittany Lions Huskers game.

[B]

Well, that'll be 11:00am we're streaming at 11:00am this week.

[C]

Yeah. What do you mean we'll be on the stream.

[B]

I wish we were streaming for that.

[C]

Oh, wish we were streaming. Got you. Got you. Yeah, we'll be all right. We'll be solid. All right, let's get into the the final bite brought to us by McDonald's. New Buffalo Ranch sauce has arrived and it pairs perfectly with your snack wrap, McCrispy sandwich and McCrispy strips. It's got the Zhang Tang of Buffalo with the creamy, cool, mild ranch. It's mild and wild at the same time. It's a sauce that balances itself and complements our crispy chicken. Again, this episode of Busting with the Bros is brought to you by McDonald's and their all new Buffalo ranch sauce. There's a new sauce in Town at McDonald's. Tangy, creamy buffalo ranch. Order now. And now we give our sharpest takeaway heading into the weekend. Heading into the week, let's say. Whether it's a bold prediction, a hot take, or a storyline that's flying under the radar, the final bite gives fans the one thing to keep in mind before finishing their week and tuning in the kickoff as they dip their McCrispy strips in this new buffalo sauce.

[B]

What are they dipping in?

[C]

Dipping in denim.

[B]

They're dipping in denim.

[C]

Dipping in denim.

[A]

I got a final bite.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

Oh. Okay. Mitch Taylor.

[A]

My final bite is Taylor's gonna get over this gout and this foot thing and it'll never happen again for as long as he lives. And for whatever reason, it was just a spell. He's going to be able to eat whatever he wants, do whatever he wants, and it'll never happen again.

[B]

It'll never happen again. That is my favorite. Dude. I would dip all day in denim with that. I would dip all day in that. My final bite. And I don't even take pride in saying this because the Vols play the Gators in Gainesville this weekend. Historically, we lose in Gainesville all the time. And then we have Vandy. So if the worst possible case scenario. My final bite. Tennessee. Nebraska in the Music City Bowl.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

Electric, bro.

[B]

Right, right. Nashville. We'd have to go, too. It'd be like the 9th Music City bowl for the balls in the last 10 years.

[C]

I'd love to get link into Nashville.

[B]

That'd be awesome. And what's great about that is you guys were supposed to play at the Nebraska's. Like, we're not playing. Yeah. Next year. I don't want to talk about that.

[C]

J.P. clump. Do you guys have a final bite heading into the weekend? Because you guys already know what mine's Going to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, after what happened to me this weekend, one of the only things that could cheer me up is that I. The McDonald's breakfast for my final bite after leaving that Texas A and M game. How I felt.

[A]

How I feel right now.

[C]

What's your order? What's your breakfast order at McDonald's? So I go back and forth between two things. I'll give you this one. This is what I had most recently.

[A]

I was actually inspired by your tweet.

[C]

Last week to go get McDonald's breakfast.

[A]

And I got bacon, egg and.

[C]

Or bacon, sorry, Sausage, egg and cheese bagel meal, plus breakfast burrito. The little two for breakfast burritos, bro. I love the breakfast burritos are maybe the best fast food breakfast burritos to ever exist. And I'm out there in the breakfast burrito streets.

[B]

No, you're in the community.

[C]

Yeah, I'm in the community. I like when you take a bite too. There's almost a little pop of cheese that comes into your mouth. Yeah. Oh, God. And they're salt, they're hot sauce. You're a bagel guy for your breakfast sandwich over the biscuit and over the McGriddle. Yeah.

[A]

The national McDonald's.

[B]

JP and like four people, they like, called him out on Twitter. McDonald's or bringing back the bagels.

[C]

Oh, wow. I got a McDonald's hat at the house. Yeah.

[A]

And.

[C]

And I was also a part of the snack crab campaign. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do remember that Rico Bosco hit me up when he saw that tweet. Like, who? Fuck it. I'm getting. I'm getting McDonald's. I'm getting. I'm getting McDonald's for breakfast on this Friday morning. He was like, bro, get the steak, egg and cheese bagel. Trust me. And usually my order, I love getting the sausage, the breakfast burritos. And I like getting just for nostalgia purposes, bacon, egg and cheese. McGriddle. And I also got a steak, egg and cheese bagel, like he was saying. But it was very. It was subpar. Like it was good. But I feel like he put sudden such an expectation on it because I'm not like, for me on the McDonald's, it's McDonald griddle and bagel sandwich or McGriddle and biscuit sandwich over pancakes, though, bro.

[B]

And also the hash browns. Hash brown are all time might be the number one thing on their roster.

[C]

Elite roster.

[B]

Elite roster.

[C]

And that orange high sea. We might have to next. Next final bite. We may have to create a starting five and then a Reserve five just like a basketball team.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Starting five on the menu.

[A]

And then who is our bench on the menu.

[C]

Yeah, I like that because they have a great roster. That bench is deep.

[B]

McDonald's. Yes.

[C]

I mean my final take is we're going to go into Happy Valley Saturday night. Double digit underdogs, Nebraska, TJ Lateef. We take down the Nittany Lions.

[B]

Foxhole game.

[C]

Foxhole game. Yeah. We got an opportunity to finish strong here. I will probably be ranked by the time we play him. Get the ranked win monkey off our back against the Iowa Hawkeyes.

[B]

Iowa was ranked before they lost to usc. They're going to be out now. You think they probably.

[C]

Yeah, it'll be close. They might be able to snip a 24, 25 in there.

[B]

Yeah. Which would be nice.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you guys got to get that off your. That's the next. That's the next step. Yeah, right there. My final bite. Hot take. If the Rams and the Seahawks played again. The Seahawks win that game.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Yeah, they win that game big. I think for you have four turnovers of Sammy D. What I hate for that game is, is my expectation that game was for Sam Darnold to go in and be able to out duel Matthew Stafford. But it ended up being more of a defensive game than anything else, which is great. It's great for football. It's just how complete both those teams are. But for Sammy D To have four interceptions, a lot of the haters are going to come out of the the woodwork and be like, oh, he, you know, he's really not a great quarterback. He's had a good year, but he's not like an elite top five guy. I think those guys play again and I believe they, they do play again, right? They haven't, they haven't played twice yet. So they will play again. I am taking the Seahawks in that game. Mark it down right here.

[A]

Final final bite. Keep Shane Beamer.

[B]

Final final bite. Michigan makes the playoffs.

[C]

All right, good to go, boys. Big hug. Signing kisses. Enjoy. Robert Gallery this is an incredible interview. Listen all two and a half hours of it. Leave comments, subscribe. Make sure you're subscribed because any kisses? We will see you later. All right, quick break from the episode to bring you Ollipop Ollie Top Ollipop Times spongebob collaboration. The pineapple is soda from bikini Bottom Pineapple paradise. Juicy pineapple with a splash of mandarin. Pure liquid joy. Just like spongebob himself. Each pack's a little treasure hunt. You never know which one you're gonna get. They have these little hidden little hidden spongebob can designs in each four pack. You can collect them all and unlock sweet [e-mail] spongebob your boy I've been a soda fiend my entire life. We've all learned how sugar is not the best thing for you. Soda is filled with sugar, not Olipop. When I found Olipop your boy was elated. I have a couple flavors that I'll mention down here at the end, but I love soda but most of the time it doesn't love me back. Olipop actually supports gut health with 9 grams of prebiotic fiber and only 2 to 5 grams of sugar per can. It tastes like soda, but it's actually good for you. They have a incredible lineup of flavors. Vintage Cola, Classic Root Beer, Cream soda, orange squeeze, Dr. Goodwin lemon lime and more. My two personal favorite. I just came across this one recently which might climb the charts and be my number one. But Classic Grape is currently my favorite. Another one that is climbing rapidly. Boys Apple Crisp Apple Crisp. It is incredible. Thank apple juice with that little carbonation. Get $2 off a four pack of Olipop at drinkolipop.com Bussin works on any flavor of four pack including Spongebob with any retailer and Olipop is sold online, drinkolipop.com or Amazon and available in almost 50,000 retailers nationwide including Costco, Walmart, Target, Publix, Whole Foods, Kroger and H e B Drink. Olipop Boys we also bring you Simply Safe. What do you want to keep safe in your life? Family? Kids? That new car in the garage? Traditional security systems only take action after someone has already broken in and that's too late. Simply Safe is setting the new standard in home security with active guard outdoor protection. SimpliSafe's monitoring agents can help prevent break ins before they happen. AI powered cameras backed by live professional monitoring agents that monitor your property and detect suspicious activity. If someone's lurking around, those agents see and talk to them in real time, activate spotlights and even contact the police. You can get 50% off your new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring and your first month [e-mail] Bussin again, that's simplisafe.com Bussin there's no safe like SimpliSafe and shout out Simplisafe for keeping the shop safe and secured while the boys are away. They do. They do sponsor and also they equip our shop here at Bussin with the boys. Guys, let's level up your nicotine routine with Lucy. Go to Lucy Co Bussin and use promo code bussin to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30 day refund policy. If you change your mind again, that's Lucy Co and use code bussin to get 20% off your nicotine pouches. And here comes the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every customer is age verified. Warning. This product contains nicotine and nicotine is an addictive chemical. Let's get to the Robert Gallery episode that is brought to us. This interview is brought to us by Bud Light. Bud Light is always brewed four simple ingredients for a clean, crisp taste. Bud Light is the official beer sponsor of the NFL, the NFL Draft, Titan University, the UFC and Shane Gillis 2025 tour. Post Malone, Dustin Poirier, Emmitt Smith, Baker Mayfield, George Kittle, Peyton Manning are all of the Bud Light partners. So you can stock up now on Bud light. Head to www.budlight.com locator to find a store a store near you. Easy to drink, easy to enjoy. Enjoy this interview with Robert Gallery.

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[A]

A decade ago I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight.

[C]

So why did it take so long to catch him?

[A]

I'm Josh Zieman and this is Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the Son of Sam. Available now listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts Wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

Ladies, gentlemen, let's give it up for our guest today. We got a two time all bag 10, one time all American Outlander Trophy winner and a man who's had an incredible story that we're going to break down on this beautiful Tuesday morning. Let's get up for Robert Gallery. Excited to have you on.

[C]

Right before we started, we were talking about the ego and the Big Ten going around right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If Robert would have been a great guest to have on before leading up to the Iowa game. Maybe after the Iowa game. Talking about Michigan football. A lot of Big Ten energy in this bus right now.

[A]

Big Ten ego right here.

[B]

A lot of Big Ten ego.

[C]

Yeah, I was. Looked tough this year. Year.

[A]

Yeah. They're doing well. I was back last week for the game. And just to see him steamroll through that. It's nice. It's nice to see when you don't just squeak it out. But they're rolling that quarterback makes a big difference for them. And they're a fun team to watch. We're. We're moving the ball and you know, it's Hawkeye football.

[B]

We got Hawkeye football.

[C]

Ought to beat your ass at the end of the year.

[B]

9 and 1 so far. The last 10. I was 19 of last 10. Great school. I feel like you guys, rivalry is like. It's a rivalry, but there's a level of mutual respect in it. Is that. Am I correct in saying that respect.

[A]

Is a big word?

[C]

Yeah, I think.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, it's a great rivalry.

[C]

Others, but it's a rivalry. Rivalry that kind of, like, came about or kind of gets forced in whenever we made the move to the Big Ten. Yeah. As Iowa. Nebraska is going to play at the end of the year. Every season from here on out. But it's there. I wouldn't say that. There's like, people love each other, Right?

[A]

True.

[B]

But people are also understanding. Like, if your kid wanted to go to Iowa, at the end of the day, you. You would be okay with it.

[C]

I personally wouldn't. Some. Some folk in Nebraska might be okay with it.

[A]

I did. I did hear that. And the sad part is, I guess I have a great. My wife played for the women's basketball team there. We have a great relationship with the.

[C]

At Nebraska.

[A]

No, at Iowa.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. No, no. Wouldn't have married her. I mean, another story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we have a great relationship with the head coach there. And I know you have two girls. And we were talking. We were just back and we were just talking with her, you know, so they are ready to see your girls come up. And they actually sent a bunch of stuff for you. That is so sweet. You know, there's some women's basketball T shirts. I threw in a Kirk Ference poster just because I figured you'd put it up somewhere. But I Know you'll do what's best for your girls and get them ready to go. Be a Hawkeye.

[B]

That is so kind. Not a lot of people come on this show and give out gifts. Let's get. That's so sweet. That is so kind. Will, what do you say? Well, what do you.

[C]

Is that signed some youth, Smalls. I.

[A]

You know, he's won a few games, you know, so he's won a few.

[C]

I respect this. I respect this. I respect it so much that if you guys beat us, I'll post a photo with Rue with this little foam finger.

[B]

It's a wild. Just walk. I told Will he's gonna grow his hair for a year, and it looked like the world was coming down to him. You're giving a gift. You're like, if I lose, I'll have Rue hold this up, no problem.

[C]

Well, I just respect the. I. I just respect him being on his toes, coming in the bus.

[B]

Yeah, fair enough. A little.

[A]

A little bit. Might be, too, that I did take a recruiting visit to Nebraska. I never got offered, so there might be a little bitterness in our relationship with that, but it worked out. Did not.

[C]

But that's because you were probably. You were an athlete, right?

[A]

Right. Yeah. No, I was. I wasn't a high recruiter.

[C]

Gallery. That came to be Robert Gallery.

[A]

No.

[C]

All American. All that stuff. Like, we, you know, who was the head coach at the time in Nebraska?

[A]

You know, that's a good question.

[C]

That was bad.

[A]

I don't even remember. Don't remember that trip.

[B]

So I was around that great early 2000s. 99.

[A]

99.

[B]

99 was when you were a senior in high school. That's wild, because you don't. You look our age, which is really upsetting for me. And so you. You're from Iowa. You go to Iowa. Was it ever. How many offers did you have?

[A]

I think, like four. Purdue, Northwestern, Iowa State and Iowa had four.

[B]

And I was clearly like, you wanted to go to Iowa.

[A]

I did. My. My older brother played there. He was a. All big 10 punter there from 93 to 96. So I was hanging around the university. I was hanging around the program. All the guys that were there, the Tim Dwights, the Jared Devries, the. So I'm in the dorms as a junior high kid hanging out with these guys. So in my mind, it was like, this is where I want to go, because I knew the. The culture and I knew all the guys. You know, it's. It's cool to be recruited and go check out the other places, but at the end of the day I knew I was going to die with.

[B]

Yeah, it didn't matter. What other school offered you if it was like an Alabama SEC school. Michigan. Michigan.

[A]

Yeah. But I don't. I was an athlete, right. I played basketball. You know, I was a second state in the high jump. You know, I ran the four by one, but I wasn't.

[C]

Four by one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is out of control.

[A]

Yeah. So we were, you know, we were. I was.

[C]

How were you jumping?

[A]

I still have a school record at 6:5. Yeah, I mean I could. I had some hops now.

[C]

Dude, that is nuts.

[A]

So I was an athlete, right. So I wasn't. You didn't turn on my VHS tape that I sent to all these schools and see like this killer football player. You saw an athlete that could run. You know my high school, we didn't, we didn't throw the ball either. So I'm. They, they showed me blocking, that's for sure. Because we would go entire games and not throw the ball. But I wasn't high. Michigan wouldn't have sniffed me. I sent them a VHS tape. No return call.

[B]

Really. And what were you weighing when you got to Iowa?

[A]

I showed up about 230 pounds soaking wet.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. So there was. You had a red shirt year on the horizon. No problem for you for sure.

[A]

It was my senior year high school. I was right at 210 and they told me when I showed up like you need to put some pounds on. So before we weighed in, I drank two gallons of water.

[B]

Been on that program before.

[A]

So I was like 2:13, just full of water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But by Christmas my first year, I think I was 275 or 280. I got on that lifting program and that eating program. They're like when you wake up, you drink a protein shake in the middle of the night and if you wake up again you drink another one. But we had that Chris Doyle program. Chris Doyle was our strength coach and we had his program of putting lean mass on and it worked.

[B]

Now is Chris Doyle the string. Was he there for a very long time with Kirk Ference? He was there for a while.

[A]

He was there for the first year when Kirk started. So 99 is when Kirk came. Chris Doyle came. That's when it all started. When my first year and Chris had. Was there for 15 plus years. 18 years.

[B]

No.

[C]

Where was Dobson at at the time? James Dobson. So that's a mutual connection that we have.

[B]

This whole thing got connected, correct?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Dob hit me up and he Was talking to me about Robert Gallery and knowing that Dobson's. He started at Iowa before he came and was our head strength coach at Nebraska. So you knew about all the Doyle programming. I'm sure we were doing a lot of the stuff in Nebraska that you guys were getting into and doing, because Doyle was, like, ahead of his time in the strength training program. But. But, yeah, Dobson, because he had to have been young.

[A]

Yeah, he was. He was assistant 99. He came with. Came with Doyle and. And he was there my. My entire career till he moved on later on. He was there quite a few years. But, yeah, James. James is the best we've kept in contact over the years. And. And yeah, he learned from that, that the Doyle stuff and then put his own stuff into it. And, yeah, he's just a great human being.

[C]

How is his, like, authority figure vibe that young as an assistant?

[A]

You know, you look back on it, we were, you know, obviously we were all a lot younger. You look back at pictures of Coach Ference in 1999, you're like, Holy cow. But James was a young guy. We were all just trying, right? They were. They were trying to put in their program, and we were bad, right. 1999, we were 1 in 10, you know, my redshirt year. Right. So everyone's trying to bring in the toughness, but it was Coach Doyle and James, like, bringing in that, like, if you don't do it right, get out the door, right?

[B]

And it was, yeah, it's a weed out the week type of mentality for sure.

[A]

And if you did stuff right, they loved you, right? It was.

[B]

It.

[A]

Was it hard, for sure. But those, you know, guys like me, we fed on that. You know, the Iowa guys, the people they brought in for that culture, that we fed on that stuff. And if they called you out, you're like, oh, you know. Oh, yeah, watch this.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The three California guys, they were like, I got to go. I got to get that. I got to get the hell out of here quickly.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So you're with fans. You redshirt your. Your first year. The next year you starting.

[A]

Started at tight end.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

True athlete.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I was so tight in you. You can potentially claim I can. Being a part of the group for.

[A]

A very small time. I think I had three catches, one of which was at Nebraska. We ended up losing that game, but I did have a catch in that game. So my. My first year, my red shirt freshman year, started at tight end. And then four games in, they came to me like, hey, we need to have a discussion. And then I moved to tackle and the rest is history.

[C]

How did you like playing for Coach Ference?

[A]

I loved it. He's. He's the best. He is. I was just back. He's a guy I talk to regularly. He hasn't changed since 1999. He's just the most steady, genuine person you've ever met. Now you see him, right. Obviously 27 years younger when we first started, but you see him now getting emotional. It's cool because I knew him 27 years ago. We were just trying to get a program turned around. Right. He was coming in. He was a young new coach or newer coach. Right. Head coach. And, and he's just the genuine human being. There's no rah rah. It's, it's. Everything he says is meaningful and to the point and, and just, just genuine. It's hard to say. I took my son back for training camp. You know, my son's in his office hanging out with him. It's. There's no like, oh, Robert's here. We gotta fake this and make him feel included. He's like, this place is your place. And your son Lincoln's so Lincoln's high fiving him, knocking him right running in and out of his office. He's just a genuine, genuine human being. And you know, that's why he's had so much success.

[B]

And your son's name is Lincoln. Very interesting.

[C]

Nebraska.

[B]

Lincoln, Nebraska.

[C]

Do you didn't think about that comes back then Nebraska?

[A]

I did not think of that. I'm. I'm a car guy. So it's actually more after Lincoln continental, the old 60s.

[C]

But now he's gonna, he won't be able to help but think about it now.

[B]

Now. Yeah, he might have to.

[A]

Yeah, it's messed up.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Now from now on, you're like Lincoln, I definitely should have named you Ford.

[C]

Coach Ference was the first head coach I had to call and basically say that I wasn't coming to Iowa. And it was so painful, but he was incredible to me. Whenever I made that call, my parents, like, you have to call the schools like Iowa. I was very much like considering Ira. And they recruited me hard and I had a cool.

[A]

You said you were considering Iowa.

[C]

Yeah, I was considering Iowa because my brother, so my brother was a year younger than me and he was a very good wrestler growing up. He was like a, he was a. He was a senior national champion coming out of high school. So when I would go on my recruiting trips, we would take a, you know, Family road trip. And we'd hit Mizzou because Mizzou had a good wrestling program. We hit Nebraska because Nebraska had a good wrestling program. We had Iowa because I was unbelievable at wrestling. So a lot of. A lot. A majority of my decision, I wanted to go to a spot to where I know my brother could go and wrestle, too, so we could go to school together. So Iowa was very much in the conversation. I forget my recruiting coordinator, but had a cool relationship with Coach Ference. Super awesome dude. It's cool hearing you talk about him, because he did seem very genuine, whether I got to sit and meet with him, talk to him on the phone. Doyle, kind of intimidating, bald dude, massive. Like, they had the chains going on everywhere in the weight room. It just seemed like a spot where you go and get yoked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You get after it. Around.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Bubble.

[C]

They just had a bubble. They didn't really have an indoor. I visited Iowa right after. After Nebraska. So the difference in facility was, like, you walk into the bubble, and it was a humid. Like, you know, they didn't have, like, an indoor very well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. We were behind the times with the behind the times.

[C]

They're like, we're building a new weight room. But I had. I had cool. I had a cool visit. I had a cool visit at Iowa.

[A]

Yeah, that's great. They're both. You know. My first day. My first day at camp with the freshman coach Doyle was holding the bags. It was just the freshman, and I'm a skinny tight end, scared shitless, right? Just want to come in and make it. And he was holding the bag, and I remember the first one, I came off my hands slid up off the bag, smacked him in the face. And my shoulder. Problems in high school. And my shoulder came out of the socket, and I'm like, oh, God, is this for me? So he's look staring at me, right? And he was a massive man back then. He's staring at me. I just jacked him in the face. And I'm trying not to cry because my shoulder came out and just had to go back to the drills. And I'll never forget that day because he looked at me and just told me, keep your hands down. I'm like, yes, sir. He was this massive, scary human being, but the greatest guy out there.

[C]

What were the. Are the. Is the dorm situation? What is it called? The six pack?

[A]

We didn't have that then.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, no, we. I don't know. We. We had the dorm.

[C]

Iowa was too gritty for me.

[B]

Some could say that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The way you talk, how I've trained with you. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah.

[A]

Didn't have all the shiny lights in Nebraska.

[C]

I mean, I didn't have all the pretty stuff.

[A]

That's all right.

[B]

Dude, is it the. Maybe the most scared anybody can be in their entire life is your freshman year when you go from high school to college and it's your first workout with the entire team. Not the freshman workouts, but the first one. Like when I first got to Michigan, Richard Riggs was the head coach. We had Mike Barwis who was just like world renowned head coach. And we did like this tabata type of workout where it's like three sets of 12 squat, three sets of 12 hand clean, like very high reps, high volume and also high weight. And then we do like hypertrophy jumping. And by the time we got to the hypertrophy jumping, I was like hitting like a full body cramp, like dying. And after that, everyone started jogging out to the field to go do our sprints and our running after that. So it was like, like just a hell of a day on a Monday. My borrowers walks up and he's got this like super raspberry, like he swallowed glass voice. And he goes, welcome to Michigan. How do you like my dick in your mouth? And then walks away. I'm thinking, I gotta get the out of here. There is no way I'm going to make it.

[A]

This is not for me, mom.

[B]

And then you gotta go shower for the first time. And then for all the boys and you're like, do I wear underwear? Do I not wear underwear? Like it's a dude. It's a mental warfare.

[A]

Oh, it is. And when you go first year, when you go in, like I think we did like we were not grown men, right? You know, and you walk in and Colin Cole, he came from Florida, he was a grown man when he showed up as a freshman. And I'm like, I gotta play against this guy. I mean, 320 pound yoke dude from Florida. And I remember thinking, oh my God, this is not gonna work.

[B]

Yeah, dude is. Yeah, we had Brandon.

[C]

It is a mind fuck, dude. You walk in there, you're. You're not developed whatsoever compared to the college, the grown men that are in college. You're skinny, you got a little pecker, you're walking the shower. Just, just fear, fear, fear.

[B]

Who's gonna look? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. You accidentally look at another guy, he's black. It's way different than yours.

[A]

We got good story. Cold Tub story. But we had Khalil Hill. He came and just stood at the top of the cold tub and said, I'm gonna get here and get see what it's like to be all you white boys. We were just standing at the top of the top of the coast hitting the helicopter and we. I remember thinking, oh my Lord, what is this?

[C]

You're like, you're like, I'm going to keep my shorts and spandex and everything on. Yeah.

[B]

Terrifying.

[C]

What's it like to be you guys? Yes.

[B]

Jesus Christ. What, what was the moment you realized, oh, the NFL is a real option for me as a player?

[A]

You know, honestly, I was so, you know, and this sounds easy to say now, but I was so in the moment the entire, my entire career. It wasn't until after my junior year, you know, we had a great junior year. That's, we were 11 and one season Orange bowl before we went down to the Orange bowl and got throttled by usc. But that's another story. But great year, right? Brad Banks is our quarterback. Our offensive line was five guys that end up playing in the league after that season. Coach Ference brought me in and you know, he said, hey, there's guys are going to be calling you. There's a chance you could come out early and probably be in the top 10. And honest to God, till that point I had no idea, really. Did I know I was playing well? Yes, but it was, I was so in the moment till that point. I wasn't thinking about, you know, I wasn't the kid that showed up in college, like, this is my step to the NFL, right? Do you watch that stuff and be like, I want to play in the league for sure. But it wasn't on my mind. I was just worried about getting better and better. And it wasn't until my junior year when coach brought me in, he's like, you know, it's your choice, you know, could probably be a top 10 pick. And I was remember thinking like, really, you know, it sounds, sounds dumb or ignorant, but I really, I really hadn't thought about it because it was just enjoying the process of what we had been doing to that point.

[C]

And too it's like it's early 2000s now. Like you got all the social media and everything going on like you do now to where everybody knows absolutely everything for sure.

[A]

Yeah, we had dial up Internet, remember? Remember?

[C]

Yeah. Now there's combines for eighth graders, right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Combine is nuts.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.

[B]

Well, so what did you, did you end up leaving earlier? Did you end up staying for.

[A]

I stayed. Yeah. It was one of those things. I'm like, oh, I don't. You know, I want to get my degree. You know, I was the old school, Iowa farm kid. My parents told me, go to school and get your degree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I wanted to get my degree, and. And I said, well, can I get. I'm gonna. I'm gonna get better. Right? Because I didn't think I was that good yet. Right. And coach said, yeah, I see you being better. I seen you be able to be a, you know, a top one or two pick, right? Like, that's what we shoot for for you. And so I was like, great. Like, I'm here. So it was. Yeah.

[C]

How do you feel? Like that infiltrated your brain, like, your ego?

[A]

I mean, it was.

[C]

It was because you going from not being, like, not you're aware that you're good, but being that good, or seen from NFL scouts as like, oh, if I left, I could be a top 10 pick now, you know, it. Coaches also saying, like, I think you could be one or two. If you stay another year, you can get this much better here, here and here. How does that affect you going into your senior year?

[A]

I mean, it was tough. It was that. That was the point where it kind of switched to. To. Up to that point, it was just having fun, right. My first few years, you're getting your ass kicked, right? You're just trying to make it. First day, I. First day, they moved me to tackle. I'm going against Fred Wakefield versus Illinois, who's a senior and a beast, All American. Just hoping. Hoping to not give up a sack to my junior year. We're dominating, but it's just fun. So that start of that senior year was when it was like, oh, there is expectation. Oh, I am pretty good. And that's kind of when it crept in, is like, I need to be perfect. Like, oh, I'm that guy. So.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I could have 69 of 70 plays on film. Now. I can say it back then. I would never. But now I can say that I, you know, dominated those 69 plays and had one bad one, and it would ruin it for me. I'm like, I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to be the guy that's perfect, and it's so unrealistic, but that's how my mind. Right.

[C]

You're probably like, I want to be the greatest to ever do it.

[A]

Well, it was. That was just my. My mindset, like. Like, we. All right. You just grind and grind and grind. It's like, that's great. Like this. Oh, I achieved this great move to the next thing. Right. You never really thought about that because it's like, okay, well that's great. Big deal. Next. Yeah. And so, I mean, it was still fun, but it was definitely more, you know, more pressure. I thought about it more. It's like, oh, in a, you know, in a game to where if something would happen, my hands would be wide. Oh, he got me. Whatever next plan, we'll go kill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To where something would happen. It would ruin the rest of the game. I'd be stewing because I don't. That can't happen to me. Like this.

[B]

Realistic expectation.

[C]

Yeah. The rest of the week when you're watching, like, even. Even for me, like, when I was seeing, like, before I could potentially be a late round pick, like before the season and everything else. And agents are trying to talk to you. Like, it infiltrates your mind. Like, we were on the locker room last week and Clay was kind of like, I bet you were the man at Nebraska. Like, how were you at Nebraska? I'm just thinking, like, it my senior year kind of feels like a blur because I feel like I didn't enjoy it in a way. Like, I look back, I'm proud of how I went about everything, but enjoyed in such a way to where I felt like the man or was having all this fun. Like, I just felt like I wanted to be drafted so badly to where any bad plays, it would, like, ruin your. Your damn weekend.

[A]

Absolutely. Scott Pioli was a GM at New England at the time. Very close friends with Coach Ference, and he had visited that weekend and I kind of, you know, lost it, but I was talking to him about it like, oh, I got, you know, this. I messed this one play up. And I remember him leaving me his business card at my locker, and on the back he wrote, lighten up, Francis. Right. Because he was talking to me about, like, dude, relax. This is. It's fun. Like, you're playing great. Just go out and do what you've been doing the last couple years. But I was so intent on everything has to be perfect because now I want to be this right. When they threw that out there, oh, you could be, you know, you could have been in top 10. You could be at the top of the draft. So now that. That's a new goal.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And anything that affected it would affect me for days and weeks. But it was still fun and was still able to, you know, I was the level of competition, too. I was still playing very well. But it was just the mental part of it.

[B]

Yeah, the mental part, definitely. As soon as expectations get put on you. Because when you get to college, it's like, how do I just put myself in a starting role or a contributor at the very least. And you do that. Like, how awesome is this? And I'm wearing a uniform in college and playing. And then just slowly but sure, like their expectation after expectation. You continue to move the goalpost for yourself. But it ended up working out. You go second overall to the. To the Raiders. What is. Like in the early 2000s? What is the draft process like for you? Like, combine. Is it still in Indianapolis?

[A]

Yep, still in Indy. So go to the combine. You know, the typical. And it wasn't.

[B]

Sounds like you went nuts based on your high school athleticism.

[A]

Yeah, I did. I did. Well, you know, the one thing that is true.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The one, you know, I ran for very well. I want to say it was sub 5 electronic. I think 4, 8, 9 handheld was what. What they had me. So I ran well, jumped.

[C]

How heavy are you at this point?

[A]

3. I weighed in at 320 unit.

[B]

Almost 100 pounds more than the first day you walked in Iowa.

[A]

Exactly. Did the. I remember. I won't forget the bench press. So did the bench press. And. And the. I don't remember what team he was with at the time, but he. He had a big ego. And he said I was bouncing, right, because they. I was a fast bencher. Like, as fast as I can. I'm like, I'm gonna go in there and put up, you know, this many 30, some as fast as I can. Well, he didn't count a bunch of them. He's like, nope, because I was going too fast. You got a pause. So I remember coming out, right? So I've talked to the media right after that, and I'm pissed off because he counted 26, right. So that was not the standard. I think I did 34, but he didn't count eight of them. So I'm pissed off about that. Right. So that was the whole combine. I remember stewing on that the rest of the entire combine, trying to do interviews and meet with GMs, and all I can think about, it's like this didn't count these many reps in my bench press. So I.

[B]

34 sounds way better than 26.

[A]

Well, for sure I'll be hot too.

[B]

Tight.

[A]

Yeah. No. So it was, you know, combine. It was. It was great. It was, you know, not what it is now. Obviously there wasn't all the cameras. So that was great because, you know, you just go in there and you did your stuff, and we got out of there and. And I ended up showing that. That guy in the bench press. When we. I redid it at Iowa, there's a. It's a good story behind Coach Doyle coaching on that one when I came to Iowa. So, like, we have our pro day, and he's like, all right, we'll show them. We're going to do 32, and you're going to stop and rack it. So scouts come in, I come in, they set it up. Had one bench with, you know, 45 on each plate or on each side. Next rack had two 45s. Next had three. The next had four. So I sat down with the 145, and he did a bunch of reps, moved to the next bench, did a bunch of reps. Now I've got three plates on each side. Do a few reps, four plates on each side. Knocked out like three of them, then went and sat down and did my. My test and did. Stopped every. I mean, arrogant, but stopped every single time. Stopped 1001. Did 32 of those. Racked it and walked out the door.

[C]

Didn't say anything to these guys that is bad.

[B]

Just a big you.

[A]

They're watching me warm up, and, like, you know, when I sat down at the bench with 445s on the side there, I can remember them looking, what is this kid doing? Doyle's like, we got a plan. Just do it. Sat down, knocked out a couple of those, did my rips, and walked out the door.

[B]

I love that dude.

[C]

Oh, this is the Raz score.

[B]

Raz is relative athletic score. And you're a perfect 10.

[A]

Interesting. Never seen that.

[B]

There you go. If that's a little ego booster for you, right?

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Can't get better than 10, brother. Can't get better than 10.

[C]

And you got. You got to give sub five out of your language. That's a. That's four. A. A four nine.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You ran a four nine.

[C]

Yeah. That's a four nine.

[B]

Yeah. Sub five doesn't sound as good.

[C]

Short shuttle, four, eight, three. That's quick.

[A]

We had. We had some good teaching, Coach Doyle and Dobson, man. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Those guys knew how to teach that. And the, you know, the athletic ability helped, but those guys were great teachers, man. I owe the credit to them.

[B]

What is the stuff we would do at Dobson where the pushing and the pulling of the sleds. What was it called?

[C]

Gpp.

[B]

Gp. Did you Guys do GPP at Iowa. All right.

[C]

I'm sure they did some version of it at Iowa. Again, like sitting down and the whole recruiting process. Like, my dad was a sicko working out, growing up, like DeFranco training and different things. So I kind of understood some west side barbell and a lot of those variations of. In concepts of training. And everybody was super high on Doyle. So getting to sit down and. And listen to Doyle speak and then getting to train with Dobson throughout my career in Nebraska, like, it did feel like they were you guys, Iowa. I remember all my visit. You were the only school that had the tindo units happening at that point. And so obviously Dobson, Nebraska, we're getting those Tendo units to kind of measure your speed, power, velocity. So very much like ahead of your. Like, I stayed. I wasn't a combine guy, but just staying and training with coach Dobson throughout to get ready for pro day and everything else. Like, yeah, they are very good teachers. You never run the 40. You're always doing like tens and twenties and you never cap out to where, you know, you're like, I have no clue what I'm gonna run. But yeah, I enjoyed. I enjoyed training with Dobson during that. During that time, getting ready for the. For the pro day.

[A]

Oh, they were ahead of their time, you know. Yeah, they're way ahead of their time. Well, here we go.

[C]

Is this a real thing or is this AI.

[B]

Hold on a second. 4, 6, 2. You lied.

[C]

People have different versions. We can call Dobson right now. And he said, 4 or 5, 4, 5, 6. Electronic.

[A]

Electronic doesn't mean your phone.

[B]

What is this? Oh, perfect.

[A]

10. I see you here.

[C]

Also, he said, oh, and it's not even a team for Taylor. It's Pro Bowl.

[A]

Yeah, dude.

[B]

I knew when I went to the combine, I was like, this is. I'm going to excel in this. It was definitely my. My world.

[C]

Just the, The. The short speed, the short shuttle, like 449 is great. Like 449 is awesome for a left tackle of your size.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And just knowing you hit, you're in the four threes, like, that is incredible, dude.

[B]

The. The short shuttle, it's funny that Will brings it up because Will, in 2018, when Will came to the Titans, we worked out with Dobson in the summertime, so we would run together. We do these GPP things. We would do this French eccentric work that Rex would always put us on. But whenever we would do the short shuttle, Will would beat me, like, edge me out by like this much. Like, barely get me. Will Would always, hey, you must be pretty fast. I'm pretty good at these. That was always Will's like, go to like dangle a carrot in front of me. Like, you're pretty quick because I'm really good at these.

[A]

It was cheating. And back then it was cheating, right? Kevin Gaspar broke some all time records at the combine, but it was almost cheating because there was a certain. The first step was a certain way.

[C]

There was a two step those first.

[A]

Five yards and it was, it was cheating. Even the three cone, the way you.

[C]

Jump around that, that the tip of the L, the way you like jump around and get around it. There are some like certain skills that if you just sit there and practice it and can perfect it, it's. You get shaved so much off of your time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

After I read my 40 of the combat, I don't think I cared about anything else. Like, we jumped, we did broad jump, vertical jump, and then it was 40. And the way they set it up was there was like the. I was OL23, so I was number 23. And then the first group was 1 through 22. So I was the first one to go and to run the 40 in my group. And I was, I was myself. I was so nervous. But once I ran, I knew I ran under a 4, 9. I was like, the rest of this can kick rocks, right? Well, I don't remember doing the. L don't. We're doing a short shuttle and you spend so much time like you're right, the 510 five. It's like two, two, three.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Through like two steps. Then you try to get the other side on three. But yeah, as soon as I ran the 40, I was like, nothing else matters anymore. That's all I really wanted.

[A]

Yeah, we combine up so much too, right? Like you get to that point, everything.

[B]

To you, he's talking about the expectation. Like you're so like, all that matters is the combine. And once combine's over, you're like, I.

[A]

Tweaked a hamstring like two weeks before. Right. I'm like, this is the biggest job interview in my life.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Doyle's like, like, relax, you know, James, like, you'll be fine. Like, just we'll get you out there. But same thing. I got through. That felt great. And I'm like, the rest of this is, I'm good. Same thing. I knew, knew it was good. I looked up, somebody gave me a thumbs up. I'm like, I'm great. Yeah, yeah, I know. I did fine. It's all good.

[B]

But you were at, you were in Oakland for. Actually before we even get into Oakland, the draft, anything that you're there for. Kirk Ference and his, like, beginning part of his career that's obviously lasted as long as it has. Do you have any, like, great Kirk Ferenc stories that maybe. No one really knows?

[A]

The early days, yeah, I think they were just right. They were trying to figure out who they were. But I had a line coach and Jill Philbin. So when I got to college in high school, my mom would cut my hair high and tight, right? Haircut. Every week, mom would fade it up. She did a real nice job on a fade. But get to college, right? Poor. Yes. I'm on scholarship, but I got no money or living in the dorms, got nothing. So I started growing my hair out. All right, so the hair is getting long. And my line coach kept telling me every day I'd come in the office, he'd cut your hair, cut your hair. So I, I, one day I finally, I was like, man, you know, I'm a young kid, right? Still obviously a new player. Go knock on Coach Ference's office. I'm nervous as hell. I'm like, hey, coach. Like, yeah. It's like Coach Philbin keeps telling me to, to cut my hair. Like, do you care? Do you want me to cut my hair? Right. Just a scared little kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he goes, come in here. Walks in, he shuts the door, he goes, I don't give a shit what your hair looks like. I just want you to play good football. Let's copy that, coach. And so from that point on. But no, he was just, he's the same guy. The speeches. You see now, he was the same. Just go to work. It was him and Doyle and Dobson. It was just like, you go to work, do things right and you know they love you, right? That's just, that's the culture there. So he wasn't, he's not a big flashy guy. He's not jumping up on the surfing the, the team. He's, he is who he is. And I think that's what everybody loved about him back then. And now you see it and that's what you really love about the guy. He is just a genuine, just the same guy. Oh, it doesn't change for anybody, right? He's not buying into the new hype and the, all this stuff. It's just the coach ferencing that we knew. So that's, that's probably, you know, it's typical of him. Very. Not a big Flashy story, but it was, you know, that's just who he was. It's like, I don't care about that. Like, yeah, let's play football.

[B]

Being consistent for a quarter century is pretty incredible.

[C]

Any, like, initiation stories with the O line room, or is you being older to a young cat?

[A]

No.

[C]

What type of old lineman were you? Were. You were like, hey, let's get them uncomfortable. We, like, we'd have. We'd have old lineman, like, when we were freshman, they come up and put their leg up on the bench. They'd be butt naked. Just try to make you feel very uncomfortable.

[A]

We would do a little bit of that, right? Staying close in the cold tub. Some of the, you know, walk into. Walk into the meeting rooms and, you know, you. You graze up against a guy or a new young guy, that's kind of. Kind of, kind of weirded out. But it was, you know, I wasn't a. I wasn't big into that. It wasn't a bunch of talking. It was more the, hey, we come in and go to work, right? I tell the stories. These kids, you know, kids, as I was older, they were younger. You know, I'm sorry, I'm this. Or I'm. I'm tired and I'm not doing it. So I told the story when I was. Again, when I was a freshman, we were learning to do cleans. Overhead cleanse, right? So I do one. Well, I came too close to my head, and I caught my forehead with the bar on the way up. Still did the clean. Well, I can just feel blood running down my face. So I gashed my head open. And Doyle and Dobson are looking at me, and I'm like, put it down. And I kept going. And they're like, you all right? And I'm like, wiping all this. I mean, he's running down my face.

[B]

Like the most badass ever, right?

[A]

And they're like, go get that checked out. So I tell the story to the younger guys, like, hey, we don't give a what you do. But, you know, right. Something like this happens. I'm this tough. This is what happened. And I kept going, well, when did you fix it? Well, after the workout. You know, just stuff like that to make them feel like, oh, you're not. You're not as tough as you think you are.

[B]

That's so funny.

[C]

Just a concept discussion. Yeah.

[B]

You want to be tough? This is how tough.

[C]

Just headbutts. The wall starts bleeding.

[B]

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[A]

A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught, the answers were there.

[C]

Hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him?

[A]

I'm Josh Zieman and this is Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the Son of Sam. Available now listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

And so you go second overall to the Raiders, correct?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Who had the first pick that year?

[A]

It was Eli. Well, it was the, the whole Eli Philip Rivers swap of San Diego.

[B]

That's right. So you're sitting there in the background going, I know I'm not going number one. Let me just sit back and hit this two. No problem, right?

[A]

Yeah. And leading up to it, right? It was this, you know, Eli's Eli saying pre draft, right? We're in New York. I ended up going to New York, you know, I'm probably not going to go there. And I'm like, you know, I'm the smart ass in the back. Like, shit, I'll go number one. I don't give a shit, right? If you don't want to go there.

[B]

I'll go there, right?

[A]

You know, not knowing where I would end up thinking more 4, 5. But it was, you know, that was, that was great because that took a lot of the media attention, right? I'm a small kid from, you know, small town, Iowa. Went to New York for the experience. Took my family. We were a fish out of water, right? We, my family did not belong in New York. It was a fun experience, but we were just, you know, all that took away the, you know, took all the media attention. So that was great.

[B]

That's awesome.

[C]

When you're going, when you're going into Oakland to that franchise and you're coming from Iowa, where you had a lot of success what was your first years of experience like in a place like Oakland? Because you guys were pretty bad. Like Oak, the Oakland Raiders were pretty bad pretty much the entire time you were there.

[A]

Yeah, it was, you know, going in, I'm sure like for you guys, the first year was just. For me, it was just the joy of playing football and getting paid for it. I mean, I didn't matter. We were 4 and 12. I believe my first year didn't matter what the record was. I remember walking out in Denver, it's nuking snow, right. And I'm in a cut off T shirt and it's nuking snow. I just remember thinking, I get paid to do this. Right. That was kind of the first year for me. Like, holy cow. Like we, the, the wins and losses didn't affect me as much. It was just like, holy shit. Like I made it to here. I get a paycheck, I get to come do this every day. But you know, as time went on, like you guys know, you know, the wins and losses count, you know, and they matter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and, and it messes with you. But yeah, we had a ton of turnover. Right. We talked. I had five head coaches in seven years when I was there. So that part of it, it was tough because every year you start over like every team does every year. Right. You guys talk about it on your show. Well, we're shooting for big things this year. Right, Right. And every year, you know, you got to buy into that.

[B]

Well in the division with the super.

[A]

Bowl coaches gone, oh, let's learn a new offense, let's learn a new system. So it was, it was fun to be a part of that organization and you learn, you know, you only know what you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know how it was done there. So met a bunch of great guys and you know, there's some great memories. But you do it to win. Right. And it's just unfortunately there wasn't a lot, if much at all winning, you know, during my career there.

[C]

When you're a second overall pick and you're starting to stack, like as a team, bad years. Given everything that is known about Robert Gallery, when are certain moments of pressure starting to affect you differently? Whether it was expectation, living up to being a second overall pick, when was that starting to take place for you as you look back on your career?

[A]

You know, I think going into my third year. So third year new, new head coach. Right. They brought back Art Shell out of retirement from 20 some years. Right. So we have our offensive coordinator.

[C]

He was retired for 20 years.

[A]

Yeah. He hadn't coached, I think it was, for almost 20 years. Right.

[B]

Classic Al Davis move.

[C]

We're gonna fire the second head coach. This is the guy.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes to go forward, you have to go backwards. Yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, so it is, you know, it's. It is what it is. Right. Our offensive coordinator was running a bed and breakfast in. In Idaho, I think. Right. So I think that was the year that it was like, oh, man. Right. And it was, you know, it was tough. Right. So we're. We're putting stuff in and I think that was year. I didn't play well that year, you know, had, you know, Jackie Slater came in as, as a line coach and, And Jackie is one of the best players to ever play. Right. But he had a certain way, and it was one of those to where you're going to do it this way. I tried to do that way. It didn't work and I did not play well, you know, was injured, did not play well. So I think that was the year was like, you know, so then that's. Media is coming on and that's part of it. You want to do well. But it was, you know, I'll admit I struggled that year, right. Trying to do the straight sets back and this thing I'd never done and what I got successful at. So at that point, it was, yeah, it's tough, right? And they're, you know, we're one and I think we're two and 14 that year, you know, it was just bad. Right? So, you know, you're adding year after year and, and as you guys know, right, there's, you know, the new guy comes in, they're supposed to, you know, save the franchise or, you know, that's the expectation, right. The unrealistic expectation. And then when you're not playing well, when stuff goes bad, it goes bad. Right. As a team, right. We all look, that's. That's what was great at Iowa when we. We were doing good. I look so good because I had four other dogs next to me on the line. Right. We were just that good that it made Robert Gallery look that much better. Right. So when you're. You get in those other situations, yeah, it's tough. And you want to win, right. And you don't want to year after year, be starting over. So some of the expectation stuff, and then, you know, media, you know, now you got NFL Network and all this stuff, and it's like, now it's in your face, right? And. And now you're around NFL fans and they're great. Love NFL fans. Right. But they're also. Season's going bad. They're leaving a note on your door telling you to get out of town. It's like, oh, this is. This is a little different deal.

[B]

Yeah. And when you met your wife at Iowa, she played basketball there. She comes with you to Oakland, I'm assuming. How is she handling this pressure with. With you? As, like, you get in this third year, you're starting to think, am I gonna get another contract? Like, the excitement of getting paid in the league is kind of like now dwindled down. This is part of what you do now. It's like, I need to exceed this type of expectation I have in my own head to get this new contract because that's the new standard I have for myself. People are leaving notes like, how is your wife and you handling this as a couple in Oakland when you guys are both from Iowa?

[A]

I think it's just. We just figured it was part of the gig. Right. It's a, you know, we get it right. Losing, winning helps everything. Yeah. For an organization, for a person. But, yeah, were there tough times and, you know, nobody in that organization was happy those year in and year out. Right. So it was, you know, we dealt with it, you know, like everybody else. Right. It was just back to work. I didn't try and put too much thought into it, like, but like, we do. We get on something and you're, you know, it bothers you because you want to be successful. You want your team to be successful. You want. Right. And I just kept going deeper. You know, after the third year, I went back and trained with Doyle and Dobson. I went to Iowa City and lived at my buddy's house and trained with the. With those guys two days, two times a day. And just kind of going back to the, you know, the things that made me successful. And, you know, then the next year, Tom Cable comes in and, you know, great coach and, you know, things get back. We're. We're doing better as a team. You know, he's my style of play. So you just, I don't know, you don't really dwell on it. You don't have time to think about it. You just do what always made you successful, and that's just go back to work.

[C]

What. At what point in your career was it was the image starting to shift from he's going to be our savior, drafting him second overall to where the. The noise of bust and he's not playing well. Is that popping up going into the third year, like when you, like, when you're, like, when you're explaining that, you know, people are leaving notes on your door or now it's in your face, like, what are the moments that you're thinking about to where you felt like the shift was now starting to come, Like, I have to play better. This pressure, this expectation starting to come with all this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was probably that third year, right? Because it was bad. I mean, it was offensively, it was terrible for everyone, you know, as a team. So after that, that year, I think some of that was right. You get, you know, now NFL Networks and I, I don't remember the guy. I don't even know where the guy is now or. But Jamie Dukes was on there. You guys probably don't remember him.

[C]

Yeah, I recognize the name.

[B]

So.

[A]

So he was on NFL Network and that's the first time I saw. Happened to be watching NFL Network. And he's, you know, we're one in eight at this time. And, you know, he, he came on and, you know, was badmouthing us and it's like, oh, that's like, he's talking about me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so it was, you know, after that year. But then, you know, in the moment, I.

[C]

If, like, if stuff's like written and it's like at me. I know, as a, as a player. And you're seeing it for the first time, like you're enraged, right? Like, I would be like, I'm just thinking, these cars.

[A]

Well, in the world we.

[B]

We grew up in too, it's like we had. The social media was in full force. So, like, you go after a game and you make the mistake of putting your name in the search bar. And you see all the comments, man, you see, maybe you have a good game. You see seven comments are like, this guy had a good game. You're like, that's kind of nice. But then you see two or three, they're like, this guy sucks. He got beat on this plane. You're like, dude, they're right. Like, there's a piece you that like, agrees with them or whatever.

[C]

We're thinking, like, I wonder if my coaches secretly feel this way because that's really, like, ultimately you're. You're wanting to please your teammates, you want to please your coaching staff because you know how much work you put into it. And just that little bit of the outside noise now would now have me thinking, I wonder if my coaches, like, I wonder if these conversations are being had in the coaches rooms and they're just, you know, you know, it's not coming out to me in front of me. But you just start playing these weird, these terrible assumption games, right? It just starts infiltrating your mind.

[B]

Dude, we had a. It was 2018, I just got off a suspension. Was it 2018 I was spending.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

2019, 2019, I got off suspension. We played the Bills and we end up losing that game. It was like a field goal game, like 12 to nine. They end up beating us. After the game, our head coach, Mike Vrabel, his notes were like somehow publicly brought to everyone's iPad. So you could see the notes that Variable put on the players. And the first play of the game, we ran like this play action pass. We throw a ball down the field, 15, 20 yards. I run down, hit a guy at late in the pile, I get a penalty. Brings us back. And the note Rebel had was, why are we paying him this much? And I remember seeing that note just being like, that's. I want to kill myself right now. It was the worst because you're already suspended, you're coming back and it's like the worst feeling. So it brings up all those like, do the coaches really feel about me this way?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you're just like, man, yeah.

[A]

The good or the bad? Because it's funny. And that's when you learn about like mental health. Right. You didn't think of it back then, but it was like you, you read that stuff or you hear, then you are start doubting yourself and you press harder. But then, you know, after, you know, Coach Cable came in, ran the system that I was used to, like, we had a lot of success, moved to guard, was playing really well. Yeah, you're six, five and six, six and seven. Right. And, and after the season, he's like, oh, you know, if we would have won more games, you would have made the Pro Bowl. So that's great. Thanks. But you know, it's, it's the same thing. It's like, oh, oh, great. So, you know, people recognize I'm playing real well. But we were 4 and 12, right. So if you take this, it was a double sided compliment. It's like, oh, that's awesome. Then it's like, well, that sucks, right? Yeah, because we didn't, you know, because we didn't win games. Like, so, you know, you're playing at a higher level, but it's like, but it doesn't really count.

[C]

You know what I mean?

[A]

So like the mental warfare of all that stuff.

[B]

And dude, you had so many different personalities. Like, obviously the owner has his own unique personality. Jerry Rice, your rookie here, jamarcus Russell. I think Lane Kiffin was your coach at one point. Like, it had to be very unique. Walking in this locker room and seeing all these different characters. Like, what was jamarcus Russell like?

[C]

You said that. I'm like, oh, you play with jamarcus Russell, dude.

[B]

That's the classic. They give him a playbook, right, with like a hundred dollar bill at the end of the playbook. And he like never opened it up or something like that.

[C]

Yeah, something like that.

[B]

Or they'd be able to tell.

[C]

But there was nothing on the film.

[A]

Gave him a blank. Yeah, the story is they gave him a blank disc to watch film. Yeah, it was, you know, part of it. You, you know, I have compassion now for a young kid come in as anointed. The, you know, coming out of college, he's anointed the guy. Right? And not everyone again, this is where we're old now or I'm old because I think of it compassionately about. I had a great family and a great, you know, my mindset coming in. I knew certain things where you see certain kids come in now. Right. And it's. They don't have maybe the mindset you do or the upbringing or not saying Jamarcus had a bad humbling. I'm just saying his life experiences. So he's comes in, he's anointed this guy. Right. Driving a Rolls Royce and. Right. All stuff I would not do, it was. It was all the thing of making it to the NFL and it was, you know, it was obviously a tough go. We had a. We had a lot of personalities come through there. Right. You know, we had, you know, born Sapp, played with Warren Sapp. Right. Warren was there at the end of his career. Just. You're walking into this locker room and it', man, we are different people. Which is cool. Which is cool for, you know, NFL locker rooms.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's also something.

[C]

What was Warren Sapp like?

[A]

Warren and I got along well. Warren was great. Warren was not afraid to voice his opinion, good or bad to somebody. But, you know, I'm still a young guy. I think my favorite guy of all time was Ted Washington. So big Ted was there my rookie year and Ted was the. I don't know how Ted is now. Ted was the biggest human being I've ever seen. Right. Puts his hand down at D, tackle, first OTAs. And he looks at me, he goes, don't touch me or I'll kill you. So I'm a rookie and I'm like, I gotta go. So I'm back and forth like, what am I gonna do here? But I remember seeing his hand look like a bear paw, right? He put it down in the ground. So same thing, right? High school to college, college to the pros. And I'm like, how am I supposed to block this human being? And he just told me he's gonna kill me if I touch him. So I block him and he grabbed me and he's like, like, I told you, don't touch me. Right? But Ted was the greatest guy in the world. He was just his personality. You know Tyrone Wheatley, right? Yeah, Tyrone was, you know, blocked for him. So some of these guys, when I was especially a young guy, you, they were just that stuff I'll never forget. And guys that I looked up to and this was a badass, right? Tyrone would tell me, get out of my way or I'm going to run through the middle of your spine. And he would, right? He would not cut around you.

[B]

He would not cut around you.

[A]

He would, he would come right through you. But it's those, those experiences in the locker room that made it fun. Because coming from a small town in Iowa, right, we had, you know, experience and diversity at Iowa. But, you know, coming from where I came from, I go to Oakland and it's just a different, different deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I remember my rookie year. I had an old hooptie, I had a four door Buickle saber that I drove in college. So I took it with me, right? And I'm at a gas station off of 98th street getting gas because it's cheap, right? And I'm pumping gas and one of the guys on the team, black guy, stopped and he's like, what are you doing here? I'm getting gas, I gotta go work out. He goes, look around, buddy. Like, you're the only white guy here. Like, you should not be getting gas here. And right? So it's like this big world for me. It's like, oh, copy, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He was dead serious, right? But it was like, oh, he's like.

[C]

Looking out for you.

[A]

Guess I'm not in Iowa anymore, right? So it's funny experiences like that. And then like that bond that I created with him, he's like, I got you. Like there's certain parts you, you know, you don't go here, you don't drive through, right? For whatever reason, right? This is, this is not where you grew up in Iowa. So those relationships in the locker room were awesome.

[B]

You. So at like, at what point in when you're in the league, are you starting to deal with some of these, like, mental things? You talked about the shoulder early in your career that comes out your first day at Iowa. Like you have these injuries, ailments that essentially like coaches just like playing football. Like, they're going to give you the Medrol dose pack, they're going to give you the pain pills, like we need you to play. So here's the band aids over and over again. And obviously a big reason why you're here is a lot of the mental health stuff and all the things you have had to go through. What, at what point in your career did you start to feel these things taking a toll on your body and mind?

[A]

Yeah, I think, you know, two, three years in. And so I started having some injuries, right. Like, I was a warrior in college, never missed anything, never missed a game, never miss, missed practice. Right. When I went to the combine, gave my medical sheet, there was nothing in there because I never missed anything, right? Yeah, I had injuries. I broke my hand, but I didn't miss stuff. Right. So like everybody else, you. Your body breaks down or you have an injury. I had a surge. Start having surgeries. Right. So that stuff's wearing on your, on you mentally, right. You know, I'm three, four, five, six, seven surgeries in, some of them big ones, some of them little ones. And then as you know, year four and five, as you know, I was like you, right. Like, I love the dirty part of the game within the rules, but the dirty part, the late cleaning up piles, the. The chop blocks to all the stuff to slow a guy down from how he was going to play. And so as these things are happening, right, you're getting him off the ground after trying to cut someone and you catch them on the side of the knee and you're like, oh, you know, staggering drunk, getting back to the, to the line because you're, you know, you got your bell rung.

[B]

Someone notices that, you're like, oh, that's a shoulder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You always got. There's always your guy in the corner that has your back for sure if you get your bell run a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. And so as those things started having more lasting effects that when I notice, especially, you know, you're six, seven, eight, that's when, especially in year eight, I'm like, well, you know, got my bell rung, right. And I didn't have a clue what was going on. Right. And I did. I had a knee injury earlier that year. Ego, right. So I. Knee injury, missed a game and I come off and they're like, you know, that's when they started taking the helmets or, you know, if they took your helmet, you were out. And I remember staging off like, it's my knee. It's my knee. Right. Because I missed the game for an McLaren. And he's arguing with me. I'm like, it's my knee, right. Like, I'm fine. And. And so that went back in and it just wasn't all there. So those, Those times to where then you get home and you're dizzy and, you know, the brain fog and all the things, you know, it's part of the game. You know, that's. That's what I thought it was. It was part of it. And it was. I was. I was a guy like. Like you. Like you. That was not coming out. It a lot had to happen for me to come out of the game. Right. Like, major injury to where there's. Physically, you can't go.

[C]

Yes. You're a lineman from Iowa.

[A]

Yeah. That's what made you successful.

[C]

Long hair, got the cut off tee. Like, absolutely.

[B]

Middle of winter.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Denver.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as the, as the years went on, I noticed that stuff. And then, like everybody else, right, like you're trying to make it to the next week. You know, your, Your eight, You know, you're doing what you got to do to make it to the next week. Right. The tortoise shot. You know, I tell everyone without tortoise shots, I couldn't have kept playing. I don't know if you guys could get the shot. Yeah, they were, they were, towards the end of my career, were trying to make it. So you couldn't get the shot. You had to take the pill. Pill didn't work.

[B]

And they would say the pill works faster than the shot.

[A]

No, that.

[B]

There's no way.

[A]

Completely true.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, once you get that shot, too, you just feel like you've, you know, life changes. You went back in time.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Right. And so that was just, to me, it was just part of it. But as the, you know, 6, 7, 8, I noticed that stuff. And then. Then I noticed other things. Right. The. Not only the injuries and the surgeries. Right. You're going into a, you know, surgery seven. Right. Whether it's a, you know, ankle scope, elbow scope, or having my back fused. Right. I had some major, major injuries and major surgeries.

[B]

Was the back fusion the biggest one?

[A]

Yes. Yep. So that was, you know, year six, you know, came back. But yeah, you, you know, they pull your back open, they Put rods and stuff in there and. But yeah, you just rehab and get back to work. That was part of it. But coming out of those surgeries, I don't want to do this anymore, right? You're going for a scope, and they're going to put you on, and you're just like, just don't let me wake up, right? Because of the, it just wears on you. You're not tough. It's like, you know, it's like a hangover, right? You don't, you can't handle the hangover as much. So, you know, as time went on, it was that. And then I, then I noticed it. You know, after games, I'd get in the car and my wife would say something, I'd lose it, right? And so I'm just thinking, this is just me, right? I, I care about our team. I care about success, right? To me, it was like, you win or lose, it's black and white fight, right? And that was how my mood was. So good or bad. I never was able to handle the losing very well because it meant a lot, right? Like, you guys, this stuff meant a lot. Like, you don't. Yeah, the paycheck's great, but the winning is why we do this. So I noticed things with that where my trigger getting, you know, snapping, right, for no reason, or she said something. And now I'm dealing with kids, you know, my daughter's at home, and something happens or. And, And I just notice a switch goes off to where things go kind of dark. So that's, that's when I kind of started noticing and that stuff, but never really dealt with it until after I retired.

[C]

Now, when you're trying to deal with it, what are things that you're doing that nobody else is seeing to, where you're trying to mask some of the, Whether it's pain. Like, were you, were you getting in the pain pills heavy? Like, were you drinking, like, things that your wife might not have been seeing at the time? So when you look back and kind of check yourself, you're like, man, I was really kind of off the rails and nobody understood it.

[A]

No, she knew what was going on and what I was doing. You know, I, I, I feel like I did it with. Within the lines. Yeah, but painkillers, you know, the, the sleeping pills didn't work to go to sleep, so then you're taking Percocet instead, right? It was just anything to, like, I need to sleep, right? I get done with a game, my body hurts. Sleeping pill doesn't work. So 30 beers and three Percocet. Four Percocet. This is going to make me go to sleep. Right. So something.

[C]

30 beers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you know that was the coping. Right. Like, and it wasn't an everyday thing, but it was like, you guys, I'm sure I was in extremes. Right. No matter what I was doing as extreme. So if I'm going to sit on drink, I'm going to drink 10, 20 beers. Like that's, that's what we do. Right. As fast as you can. Not, not trying to, not knowing it, but it's like drinking cups of water. Right. And so then it was the same with the. Whatever you can do to feel better. And so she noticed things and it was, you know, more surgery. So then it's taking painkillers and, and you know, trying to get them to work better. So you have a couple drinks. Nothing that I was hiding, but definitely it was abusive. Right. And it wasn't the right way to deal with them. But also, you know, you had to do what you had to do to get to the next game to be able to play. You know, I mean that was my mindset and.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, I do it all over again.

[B]

There's so many different ways you can justify it too. When you're like trying to get to the next game. Like you're taking care of your family at this point, I'm assuming you have kids like you want to. You, this person is asking for this type of help and you're like, I have to help all these people around me and if I don't get to play, I don't get to get paid. So I have to do these things. This is why it's okay for me to take these pills and drink these beers. Right. So there's always something you can tell yourself to keep that, that kind of decision making process going that way.

[A]

And I don't think it was, you know, was it abusive in those moments? Right. Is it, is it normal and not abusive to drink 15, 20 beers after a game? It's probably to a normal person abusive. But that's very common between us. Right. We. Right.

[B]

It was like away games.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On the flights they have cases of beer right under them.

[A]

It wasn't every single night of the week.

[B]

The hogs. Yeah. Drinking beer is like, yeah, that's a very normal thing.

[A]

That's what we did. So, you know, I think was it abusive? Yes. But it was also. That's part of being a young guy. It wasn't every single night I was doing that. Right. But it's. You just. Right. There's also the business side of it. You're getting older, you're making a bunch of money, right. If you miss games because you're hurt, I mean, we know the business side of it. So you're like, I gotta do whatever I gotta do. Like this paycheck is nice. I'm trying to set my family up for life, right? So whatever I gotta do, right? Whether that's taking Percocet to go to sleep instead of painkiller or instead of sleeping pills, great, I'll do it. Right. You're not thinking about what it's doing to your body, but.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah, it's part of. It's part of the business. Like this. There's going to be a business decision at some point here, right. So I got to do whatever I can to make sure I keep playing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

How long did you. How long did you play?

[A]

Eight full seasons. And then went to camp. Retired in camp my ninth year.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Retired in what year? In camp?

[A]

In camp. Yeah, I went to camp. I got released from Seattle, signed with New England, went there and it was just, you know, had had my 8th, 9th and 10th surgery before. After that year in Seattle or during. Went there and my body just wasn't there. Mentally I was. I was gone, right? I was. It was. But physically I was like, I can't move. Like I'm trying. And I got to an organization. Signed with an organization. Holy cow, right? Like, this is a winning organization. This is what I wanted my whole career, right. So wanted to. And I. My standard. Wasn't my standard at that point. And so a couple weeks in the camp, I went in and was like, you know, coach, I appreciate the opportunity, but it's time for me to be done. And it was the mental part too. I mean, there were, you know.

[C]

Yeah. What was going on? What was going on all encompassing. Because I'm assuming that conversation is probably very hard.

[A]

Yeah, it was, you know, it was the physical part to where I'm struggling to move, right. Trying to be fluid and, you know, so ego, right. Comes in because I'm like, I am not what I used to be, right. And I can't move. And you're getting, you know, getting beat at practice and it was like, oh, my God, I can. Can I do this? And then, you know, the mental part of it was. Was equally as tough, right? There was points and not, you know, it's hard to say, but there's a point where I'm like, I wish I just blow something out so I could be done. Right. And that's where. How bad it had gotten mentally because I didn't, you know, I felt like if I retired, chose to retire, then it, you know, then I was quitting or I was. It was this, this ego thing. Right. That's. But if something happened, it could just be like, oh, you had to. Right. And so that mental part of it, it's, you know, you're in a. Because I remember running, I kept pulling stuff and my body hurt. I remember doing the conditioning test. I'm like, I wish I just blow an Achilles so I could be done. I'm like, you know, so now you're, now you're judging who you are as a person. Like, you're coward. Like, who says that to themselves?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

But it's the mental side of it that going into that year and it was taking painkillers to get out of bed, just couldn't move and decided like, you know, the good part is I. But, you know, I was with it enough to know that I don't want to be this, I don't want to be the guy that does this till he's non functioning. And I felt like that's where it was leading. And so I had the conversation with coach there and it was like, I think this is best for both of us, you know, because I was, I was like, I don't want to waste your time. Like, you're not getting what I was a few years ago.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you quickly after you quickly. Or maybe not quickly. Did you, after you decided to retire, did you have this identity crisis of like, okay, what am I saying? Who am I now?

[A]

For sure. Yeah. You get home and you know, I, you know, I chose, you know, I chose to be done. But now you're home and you're watching your buddies still play, right? They're still going to practice. You're trying to, you know, can't turn the TV on when you're home. You're like, oh, I should still be doing this. Right? I should be there with them.

[B]

Because I'm sure at some point your body starts to feel better and you're like, you know what, maybe I could do X, Y and Z. And then you pop on a game like, why aren't I doing this?

[A]

Right? Yeah. So it was definitely the identity. And I remember screaming at my wife one day. I was, you know, I'm not a, A, I'm not an F and stay at home dad. Right? Because I was trying to let her do her thing her whole life you know, my whole career was everything for me. Right. She took care of the kids. Like, you, like, concentrate on your career.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just remember like that who, what am I? Right. And that's terrible to say, like, because I'm proud to be a father. Yeah, Right. But you, this identity, like, I'm not a stay at home dad every day. This is not what I do. So. Yeah, that's tough. I think we all go through that. And then you're dealing with other stuff on top of that, you know, mentally, that, that doesn't have you thinking clearly. That makes it even harder. And now, you know, like you said, now you're. Now I know I don't have to go to practice. So now I'm at my buddy's drinking beer, you know, three nights a week right now. So now, now I need to lose weight because I don't need to be £320. So I'm drinking tequila instead because my body can process it better. Yeah, but drinking the same volume of tequila that, you know, when I was drinking beer. Right. So it's this whole thing that, this transformation and you wonder who you are, what should I do? And, and you know, what, am I going to go get a job? Right. You've been making all this money, right, Getting these big checks. I'm going to go, you know, I like old cars, right. I'm gonna go work at my buddy's shop. I'm gonna go San Bondo for 25 an hour. You're like, yeah, you know what I mean?

[B]

It's like completely different world.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And now I'm 30 some years old and well, I don't want to, you know, go get a job and, you know, work with a bunch of 20 year olds. Right. So it's just this whole ego and identity of who you are and what you were and that's what you did your whole life. That's all you knew. Right? That's what we did. And then you get done. You're like, oh, they ain't calling. Like when you say you're done, you're done. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not in a band where we can go to the local bar and just keep playing.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Like when you're done with the sport, that's it.

[C]

What was the, what was the breaking point to start diving into your mental health and figuring out that there could be a lot more going on?

[A]

I think the breaking point for me, as time went on, so now we're 3, 4, 5 years post retirement and all these reactions and Moods and all these things got more intense. So now my kids are laughing or giggling at the breakfast table and I lose it, right? I go from 0 to 2000 and I'm so angry and smashing my fist on the table to get them to be quiet. But I'm also realizing that, hey, this is not a normal reaction, right? So why did that just happen, right? So it's instance after instance and I'm coping with, with alcohol, right? Not every day, not every week, but when I did it was how big of a bottle of tequila did I have?

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, we go to a kid's, the fundraiser for the school, right. I was, socially, I did, you know, I was, I'm not a social person. You know, even before all this, right. I would always, you know, I had social anxiety. I didn't like the, even in college, I didn't like all the attention, right. When everything's great and everybody's like, you're the greatest ever. I didn't like the attention, you know, for the good or the bad. And so now we go to school fundraisers and you know, I take my bottle of tequila with me because the stuff they serve at the bar, I don't like. Right. So that, that makes a lot of sense, right. So now it's, you know, doing things like that. So I, and I'm realizing these things as they happen. I'm like, this is not normal behavior that I took my own tequila brand in because the bar doesn't serve it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then, then I'm having these reactions to my wife or the kids. We went to dinner one night. Her, my mother in law was in town. And I just remember because of the reaction I had, we walked in, my wife's like, oh, let's sit inside. So we're waiting for this, the lady to see this. And then she said, oh, the sun came out, we should sit outside. And I remember going dark. I mean, I wanted, I wanted to strangle her. And I hate to say that, but I was so angry that she changed from wanting to sit in the house inside to outside. And I had no idea why I was. I'm like, why am I reacting like this? So in my head I'm fighting myself because I mean, it doesn't make sense, right? You guys look at me like, like, yeah, why would that trigger you? Yeah, it made zero sense to me. So these things.

[C]

How's your wife reacting when you're having these reactions and knowing that we're kind of, we're kind of in a song and dance yeah. Around dad right now, at times.

[A]

You know, honestly, at the time, I think she thought I was an. Right. She. I don't think she understood. She didn't understand why things were happening. And, you know, when someone does that, you'll be like, what is wrong with him? Right? These are me popping off or getting upset or days I'm fine, and all of a sudden I'm just. Just either super depressed or super angry. I mean, anger more than you should have, right? Stuff that shouldn't set you off. So I. It was tough because I think she was like, what is going on? Right. She also knew I was going through stuff, right? Being done. She. She knew, you know, the injuries and those things took a toll. But so the. The rock bottom, I think, was a couple instances like that to where I'm like, you know, I'm aware of all this, right? Because then I feel like the biggest piece of trash on the face of the earth because I lose my stuff because my kids are laughing, right? Or I'm sitting in a chair, like, you know, envisioning hurting them or. Or making it stop, and I'm like, I'm a terrible human being. And so I think that was rock bottom for me when I'm having these thoughts and then. Then I'm beating myself up because I'm like, they're better off without me, right? Like, this is. This is who I am. This is not a life for them. I love my family, the greatest family on the face of the earth. I love my wife. She's, you know, she's been through it all with me, but I'm like, they don't deserve this. I. They're better. They're better off without me. And so, you know, happened to be a. Morning. We were working out. We always worked out in the morning and. And broke down in our driveway. I was just. I remember sitting down, and she's like, you okay? And I just start bawling, and I'm like, I need help. Like, because all this stuff had been going through my head and I hadn't told her. She knew I was struggling. She saw these outbursts. She saw these things that happened. But in my mind, I'm like, I shouldn't be here. Like, I. They're better off. They don't need to see their dad losing his over nothing. They don't need. I don't need to be this depressed guy sitting in a chair, shaking, because I think something else is going on, right? And so that was probably rock bottom. It was rock bottom for me. And the fact That I actually asked her for help. And I just remember saying, just in tears, like, I need help, I'm struggling. I don't. I think I'm losing my mind, you know, so that was kind of the start of it. And so, you know, just happened to be at the same time that through my workers comp case, you know, I'm going through that whole process, which is great, you know, 10 years later. But they had me get a brain scan. So going to get a brain scan. And this was a very close in proximity to when I asked for help. You know, I asked her for help. I reached out to a couple of friends that, you know, had been through, you know, been through their own stuff to like, hey, I'm struggling. Like, you know, how do you deal with this? But I get this brain scan and that's when it was really kind of the aha moment because they pull up my brain scan. He's like, you know, all these symptoms you're having, the rage, the anger, the depression, the this or that. Right. And put up a healthy brain on there and then put up my brain. You know, it was a spec scan at the time and it was, you know, looks. Looked like someone had taken a baseball bat to it. Right. And so my wife, my wife was there and I remember her, she's crying obviously, because you look at it. And I started laughing and she looked at me and she's like, what the fuck are you laughing at? She was obviously mad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just said, I'm not crazy. Because I thought to that at that point I thought I was losing my mind.

[B]

You're getting an answer, right?

[A]

So I'm like, oh, this is the reason. Right. And so, you know, I just. That sticks in my head. But that was the point where, you know, kind of my healing journey started. And I knew, hey, there's, there's something going on. It's not, not just me. I'm not just a ex athlete that can't handle being done, that doesn't have an identity. Like there is a physical, physical issue that is causing these outbursts and these thoughts and these suicidal ideation and these, all these different things. And there's a reason it's happening. And now we gotta either do something or continue the way we are.

[C]

Did you ever get extremely close to killing yourself?

[A]

I did, unfortunately, yes. It got bad enough to where with the, you know, suicide nightmares at night. And then it turned to suicidal ideation during the day to, you know, I felt like I was a burden on my family. Right. So you're having these thoughts that. And you see yourself acting in a certain way. And I'm like, they are better off without. And I believed it. I believed it. And I told my wife, I Multiple. Multiple occasions, you guys are better off without me. Here's all the stuff, right? Because I'm. I'm aware of these reactions I'm having, and I'm aware that I'm. The getting triggered by my kids to where. Or my wife to where I want, you know, like, physically think I'm hurting them, Right. So now I'm sitting in a chair thinking I'm hurting them. And there's a couple instances, and she's like, what is wrong with you? And I'm literally sitting there shaking because I thought it was hurting my children. Never physically touched them, thank God. Right. But the story in my head was that I was. So now I feel like I'm a terrible human being because I think, how could you have this thought about your children?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, you know, not proud of it. There were times that I thought, you know, in a friend of mine that I met, military friend, he ended up taking his life. He said it best. He said, nobody wants to commit suicide. They want the noise to stop. And that's what I wanted. I just. I can't. I can't live like this. I can't be around and function around my children and have these thoughts. I need the noise to stop up. And there were. There were times I had, you know, my pistol in my glove compartment of my truck, and I'm like, this would be really easy right here. Right? And. And so, you know, never. Never attempted it, thank God. But there are multiple times that it got to that point, unfortunately. And, you know, then it was like, oh, everybody's gonna think I'm a coward.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So then it's driving down the highway.

[B]

And internal dialogue is just.

[A]

Yeah, there's a semi coming. All right, well, if I just swerve over in front of this semi, I won't look like a coward, Right? And so it was the. The not thinking clearly part on top of all the other things that I'm affecting people that I love. I'm affecting them. And. And that's. But I wanted to be better. I wanted. I was aware of this. And so when that stuff started happening, that's. That's when I reached out for help, and that's what kind of started the whole journey.

[B]

When you're.

[C]

When you're having. By the way, I'm sorry for asking that very bluntly, too. I was just Kind of like listening. You start talking about the suicide ideation and everything else, and it just moments, just sitting here in my chair because I'm captivated by you storytelling, and I just had to know.

[B]

I'm glad you asked it because I'm thinking, I wonder how I can ask it.

[C]

And knowing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Knowing that he's having the. The rage and the outburst, and I can only imagine the shame and embarrassment that you quickly have after that, or people looking at you and you're telling these stories and you're shaking in your chair, and then you're seeing on the scans, like, how in. How badly in shape your brain has been. And then once you said, like, the suicide ideation, I'm just like, yeah, if you're. You've already been saying that they're better off without me. I'm just thinking to myself, like, I wonder what he's meaning by that. So then whenever I had that land, I'm like, I just need to. I didn't know how to ask it either.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. And the good thing is now I can sit here, right? And that'll be the rest of the story. But I can sit here and talk about it, not be nervous, right? Dude, I'd be sweating because I'm like, yeah, it's every single day. Yeah. And so to. It's a very real, real part of it. And I don't think enough people talk about it. And that's, you know, that's. That's real talk. Like, that was. It was very, very close. I'm not proud of it, but that was part of the journey. And. And unfortunately for a lot of people, it gets that way. And if you, you know, you keep hiding it, that's. That's the issue.

[B]

Yeah. And for you to be able to sit here and like, have this conversation and talk about these super deep things so calmly, it just shows how much growth that you've had. And I'm sure there's people that are watching this that might struggle. Struggle similarly, that don't know how to put it into words. So you could be absolutely helping somebody right now just by being as vulnerable as you are with two guys you just met. Boys. We end up this episode to bring you just a few ad reads right now. Let's talk to you about Dude Wipes. Are you fumbling the ball when it comes to getting a confident clean in the back of your end zone? Make the right play call an audible switch from dry toilet paper to wet extra large dude wipes. Why it's simple water just cleans better. Dude Wipes are wet extra large so they never they so they clear never smear your rear. So we got to go number two. Be sure to bring the number one product and clean Dude Wipes the goat of cleaning your keister. Available on Amazon and at Walmart nationwide. Dude Wipes Best clean, pants down. We're also brought to you by Neutral. Have you tried Neutral? If not, you're missing out. Neutral. So much better than any other seltzer that I have personally ever tried. It's made real vodka and real juice. That's what makes it delicious. They come in a variety of flavors. I've told you about my favorites, which is pineapple and lime. But go and try out the watermelon, the orange, black cherry or the strawberry. Do what you want. It's your palate. All these are going to be delicious to you. Neutral is the perfect drink when you're hanging out with friends. It is such a crowd pleaser. Neutral. Keep it tasty. Finally, I would love to talk yep, I would love to talk to you about True Classics. Specifically their Pima shirts. I wear the Pima shirts all the time. You guys see it. I wear it on espn. I wear it on this show or in the locker room during our streams. The Pima T shirts to me is a shirt you can wear every single day of the year. You're always going to look sharp. I love how it grabs the shoulders and it grabs the chest. Leaves you a little extra room in the middle. If you're one of those boys that need a little help in the middle and has a beautiful curve on the side to give just a little extra class, elegance and style. If you're thinking to yourself, my God, Taylor, I need some of these True Classic T shirts. You can find these things at Amazon and Costco, Sam's Club and at Target Nationwide. Or if you're an old school cat you like to to go online, go to trueclassic.com forward/busing look good, feel good, play good. Let's get back to this episode. My the question I have is when.

[C]

You'Re having these out of the bathroom.

[B]

Go ahead. When, when you're having these outbursts with your children, are laughing and you're slamming your fist or your wife, you know she wants to go from inside to outside. When you're like mentally having a hard time and having an outburst, are you internally in your head, in the moment being like, like, hey, why are you acting like this? Or is this how long does it take for you to kind of realize, oh, I just did something that is not me. I wonder why that happened.

[A]

Like, yeah, I think it was some of both. I think some of it, like, I could tell when, when I went dark, my wife would say, I went dark. Like, my eyes, she's like, your eyes were dead. And I could tell when your mood changed because, like, instantly everything went black.

[B]

Yeah, Complete body language thing.

[A]

And so I, I knew that in the moment because something would happen. And I remember just this anger. But I know I'm like, why is this happening? Like, so I'm having that internal dialogue, right? But then it got to the point where I would have these moments and then get done, right? I, you know, times on my Harley, I'd get on my Harley to, to let loose, right? To, to get this stuff out of my head. And I'm doing 80, 90 mile an hour and a 35 down Lakeshore Boulevard in Lake Tahoe, weaving through cars. And I remember, you know, in that moment, that's just what it was. It was like making it all stop, right? And then I get to town and I'm like, what did I just do? Right? I look back at the carnage behind me, like, like, oh, God, I was just doing that, like, and knew it. But it was just in the moment. It was just like weaving in and out of cars on the side of the road. And like, then all of a sudden it snapped back in. I'm like, oh my God, what am I doing? Like, I'm gonna kill myself, like. And so a little bit of both. But it was, that was the hard part. That's how it was hard mentally to cope with. Because there's times I'm like, I don't know what's going on or I snap out of something and I'm like, oh, that's not right. Like, I did that just. I'd ask my wife, did that just happen? Did I just do that? Did I just have that reaction? She's like, yeah, you know, really? And so that, that was a tough part. And that's what I think led to the other, the very negative thoughts because, you know, now you're doing this like, I'm gonna hurt somebody. Like, I'm hurt my wife, I'm hurt my kids, I'm gonna hurt somebody in the street. I'm gonna. Right, this is, this is getting bad.

[B]

Did your wife ever express concern for her well being or the kids well being ever have fear of that?

[A]

I'm talking about it now. I don't know. I don't think now did she walk on eggshells for a few years. Yes. If you ask her, I think she. She's like, I was never. For whatever reason, I wasn't. I wasn't scared you were going to hurt us, because I just didn't think that's who you were, you know, and that's someone that really believes in you to be able to say that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because my actions were showing difference. So she. Was she scared? Yes. I think she walked on eggshells to make it so these things. Things didn't happen. Right. She talks about it to try and do these things. So if she could see them coming, to make them not as intense or to stop them all together, like kids start laughing, Stop. I'll go out of the room. Right. All these different things, too. But I think. Were the reactions scary? Absolutely. Right. So luckily, I don't think I just, you know, it's spiritual to say, but I think, you know, I think she knew who I was. That's what she does. She's like, I knew who you were. I knew you. You know, I believed you wouldn't hurt us.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, but were. Were we scared at times and nervous? Absolutely. Because the. The reactions were so intense.

[B]

Yeah. Relatively strategic, too, about getting the kids out of the room. No one was starting to trigger you. Starting to realize those types of things.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Very brave and strong on her part, too. Absolutely. To see, like, the truth in you and to be able to, like, work through that with you and, like, let you go through your process. So when you guys are sitting there and you look at the brain scans, she's crying, you're laughing, she calls you an asshole, and you're like. Like, you. There's a level of relief that you have because you're looking at these scans being like, this isn't just a me thing. This is something that's happened to me. So I have. I'm sure it was extremely settling for you to be like, okay, like, I see the problem now. Now I can work on ways to resolve this problem. What is the first step you guys take when you're in this meeting room? How quickly do you start working on different therapies to help your brain?

[A]

Instantly.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because I remember asking the neurologist, and I said, well, is this bad? You know, where. Where is this on the level of bad?

[C]

Bad.

[A]

Right. And I'm sure you've seen worse. I'm sure you've seen better. And he goes, I've seen. I've seen worse. This is pretty bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was in that. Just in that Mode of which, in.

[B]

A sick way, I don't know how you. You felt in that moment, but for me, it's like when I, like, get blood work done or I, like, see my levels and all these things. Like, I kind of want it to be really bad because I know, like, oh, if I'm. I can be this much better.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

There's like a weird, like, sicko mode you kind of go into. It's like, make it as bad as it can.

[A]

Ego, right? I'm like, when I do something, I fucking do it right now.

[B]

I can be the best at me. Look how much farther I've come. Exactly.

[A]

So, you know, I asked them that and they said, you know, not so many words said. You know, you have. You know, you have cte, right? Like, this is, you know, obviously you can't tell postmortem. They pull your brain out. They like, he's like, all the symptoms. Your brain scan, you have cte and if you do nothing, you're going to become a statistic. Well, I knew what a statistic was. And my wife's like, what does that mean? She's like, this leads to suicide. Like, this is these people that are having these reactions and gave examples of other guys, athletes, other people in the past that have done things right. That's. That's what a statistic is. So at that point, I'm like, okay. And again, the all or nothing. I remember just feeling hope. So I'm like, well, let's do it. What do I need to do? He's like, well, you need to stop drinking. You know, that was first thing. You know, alcohol is the worst thing in the world for your brain. Number one and number one depressant in the world, you know? So I tried that. I didn't do very well at it. I toned it down. But everything else they threw at me, I did, you know, they were, you need to be in a hyperbaric chamber, you know, every day for the rest of your life. They said, we. So I rented one. I did two hours a day for a month and a half to see, and then I ended up buying one. Right. Luckily, through our retirement stuff and reimbursement fund, I bought one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm doing that. I'm doing IVs, I'm getting all my levels checked, right? Because all my hormones are messed up, right? So I'm doing blood work. Every few days. I'm taking, you know, getting different IVs of different medicines that are supposed to help with brain regeneration, figuring out my sleep, right? I Couldn't sleep. I'd be up tweaking at night because I wake up and go back to. Couldn't go back to sleep. Well, sleep learned that sleep is very big on brain health, Right. Obviously. So learning that, right? Who would have thought.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Who would have thought that resting your body helps your body, right?

[C]

Just the way he went to say it. And as he's saying it, his mind's like, obviously.

[A]

And you're like. But in the moment, you don't think of that 100.

[B]

Like, if you. If you've. If you're not doing something and then you just. Someone just explains it, you're like, that makes all the sense.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, that's a general, general statement. But when you're learning the actual details for sure, why it's so beneficial, that's like the. Aha.

[A]

What's like. Yeah, like the alcohol.

[B]

Sleep's good for you. It's like, oh, for real?

[A]

Yeah. And you don't sleep on when you drink a bunch. Like, oh, that's how I used to get to sleep. That's weird. How come I wasn't getting good restful sleep when I drink 10. 10 doubles of tequila.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So doing all this, you know, any. Like, I said anything they threw at me because I wanted to be better, right? And it was kind of hope for me. I'm like, oh, okay, I'm again, not back to the. There's a cause. Like, let's fix it it full board. Let's do it. So I spent a year and a half doing that. Anything they threw at me, you know, light therapy, anything I could to help with my brain health. And I'm seeing a therapist. So finally call, right? This is pre brain scan, but it's not funny. But it is. I. It's like, I need to talk to somebody. Well, I didn't know how to get a therapist, right. The NFL offers that stuff. So I called the suicide hotline that they. They give us on our sheets called suicide high length. Are you gonna hurt yourself? Well, I'm calling it for a reason, but no, I'm not. Right. And okay, we'll get you a therapist. Well, took them a week to get me a therapist that was covered through my insurance. I'm like, this is not the way. So I, you know, okay, I'm gonna find something else. So got hooked up with somebody else, got a therapist. So I'm doing. Doing all that stuff, right? Talking these things out, right. Fired that therapist, right? Because I'm talking about like the, you know, the. The Level that I take everything, right? She's like, well, how much do you drink? Well, how big is a bottle? Like, I'm not. Not trying to glamorize it, but, you know, I might drink once a week, but if I had the full bottle of tequila, I drink the whole thing, and I was fine. That's the messed up part. My wife's like, how are you functioning? Like, I'm fine. Like, I'm drunk, but I'm not stumbling. I'm not puking. Like, I can handle it. All right? So I'm talking about that, and I'm also talking about, oh, then I trying to cope. So I'm gonna go on a bike ride. So I go on a, you know, whatever. The longest bike ride I can to try and get my heart to explode, right? Because it's. Everything's an extreme. And he's like, well, that's not healthy. I remember saying that. And I'm like, well, you don't get us then.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because we do everything extreme. Like, there's no. Like, this is healthy. Right? You just, you know, you. You go for a nice little jog, right? No, you go to, like, grind out all the bad stuff.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. And so work through the therapy. You know, I'm. I'm doing all these treatments, and am I a little bit better? Yes. You know, 5. 5% better, 10 better. But still having a ton of ideation. Right. There's still days, like, I'm telling my wife again, like. Like, when you go in there and be like, here's all the stuff, right? Like this. I can't be around you guys. Like, this is. And she said, what are you talking about? Right? And I meant it. I did. Because at that point, I'm like, I'm a. I'm not a good father. I'm not a good husband. I can't barely function. I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get healthy, and it's not working. And then. So it happened to be. I was. Started listening to military podcasts. I'm a huge military supporter. You know, my dad was in the Marines. I just. I have affection for those guys and what they've done and just like, kind of like you guys, like, there are people, right? They think like us, they see mannerisms. They.

[C]

A little off.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And so I was listening to the Team Never Quit podcast that Marcus Luttrell does, and I did listen to a bunch of them listen to. Because every story was like, okay, this guy made it, right? He did a. He. Alcohol abuse. All the rage, depression, all this stuff and tells their feel good story. And then it happened to be. Listen to one of those in Marcus Capone, who is another, he played, actually played college football and then was a 13 year seal. And he was on there talking about his journey. And I'm like listening to it and again, back to this moment to where I don't know if I'm really here or not. I'm listening. I think that I'm talking in the radio. So I'm driving. I was. We were still living in the Bay Area, it's time. I'm driving up to Tahoe to our cabin to give my wife and kids a break for me. And I remember listening to him. I'm like, I'm in the radio talking, right? And I'm like, I'm losing my mind because I thought I. My voice was coming out of the radio. And I called my wife and I was like, hey, I'm on the radio. What are you talking about? Like, listen to this podcast. It's me talking, right? Because it was the story, all the stuff tbi and, and then it was his wife.

[B]

Yeah, I'm on the radio right now, so. Yeah, you are, honey.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. But that's funny now because she's like, yeah. I'm like, no, turn it on right now. She's like, okay, I'm putting the kids to bed. I'll listen to the podcast later. And you know, it's. But in my head I'm like, no, it's me, man. You were off your rocker.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

But thank God, you know, I told her numerous times ago, I said, you should leave me. Like, you know, and I meant it because I'm like, I'm a mess. Like, this is happening, right? I'm like, this is not sane. The fact that I'm calling you and telling you that I'm on the radio, right? And I mean it. I don't just mean, oh, this is my story. I'm. I'm talking on the radio. Yeah, so I hear that. And then Marcus Capone and his wife are on there and he went through all this stuff, right? So I'm like, holy cow, this is me. And then at the end, his story was, you know, he went to Mexico, did this psychedelic assisted therapy with this drug called ibogaine, and I knew nothing about it. And then he's talking about his recovery and how it changed his brain fog and, and his mental clarity and took away all this, his ego and his rage and all these things that I'm like, oh, shit. So for me, it was hope. I'm like, holy cow, there's. There's something I can do because all this other stuff I've been doing for a year and a half is not working.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm like, helped a little bit, but nothing substantial, right?

[A]

And so listen to it. Call my wife back. You gotta listen to it. I'll listen to tomorrow, right? So I get. Get to our cat.

[C]

He's like, I crushed this podcast.

[A]

Seriously, I was good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I reached out. So they had started an organizations called Vet Solutions. And because he had healing and he wanted to help, you know, obviously with the suicide epidemic and, and with veterans, he wanted to help his guys. And so I'm like, I'm gonna try. So I get on the web Internet and get their website, email them, thinking, no way. But hey, for that night, I felt good. Like, there's hope, right? Next day I get a call from his people, and then Marcus and Amber Capone call me. And we talk that day for quite a while and multiple days in a row. And he's talking about all these things, right? He's like, well, hey, there's. There's other stuff you can do first. Like, I did, you know, hyper. Hyperbaric therapy and this and this and. And I finally stopped. Okay, not to be rude. Hold my beer. Like, yeah, I've done all this. Like, everything you're talking about, I've done. And so he was talking about this medicine, you know, drug and what it. You know, how it helped him. And they had sent 200 guys, 200 veterans. So his organization deals with special op veterans. Them. He put me in contact with some of his guys who had gone through this treatment. And I'm like, there's no way, right? But he was talking about the brain fog, because I had super bad brain fog, right? Just all day in a haze. And he's talking about how that goes away and the ringing in my ears, right? I couldn't. There was always a ringing, right? So on top of the emotional stuff, it was the, the actual brain stuff. And so long story short, we talk about it on and off for a week. And he's like, hey, I'm taking a group of my kind of well known, you know, some higher profile veterans. There's four of them. We have one extra spot in three weeks if you want to join. Like, you seem like a guy that would fit in with this, and I think this will help you. And so I'm like, I'm in, right? He's like, okay, well, we gotta, you Know, we need. There's a few things we got to do beforehand. Right. Because you.

[B]

Before you go into that out at this point in your life, how much experience have you had with other drugs other than just marijuana? Like psychedelics? Different things. Like, have. Did you ever take part in any of those things, like in college or NFL?

[A]

To this point, none.

[B]

So this point, none. Nothing on the phone. And you're like, I'm in on trying this thing. And I'm assuming T.J. yes.

[A]

Yep. I. I mean, I'd smoked weed a couple times in my life. It didn't work for me because I tried that when I was coping, too. Like, oh, you know, Carol Turley found healing through marijuana. I'd reached. I reached out to him. Right. Like, trying all these different ones. Ones. And it did. It made me feel sick or I was out. Right. It was. It wasn't. Yep. It wasn't my thing. So I had zero experience, knew nothing about it.

[C]

Help shut it down for maybe momentarily, but.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And so I'm learning about this, and he puts me on the phone with the doctors, and they're explaining it and that, you know, at that point, I didn't care. I'm like, I'm in. But it was like, knew nothing about psychedelics. And they're talking about the hallucinations. Right. I knew the. You know, I went through dare like, I'm sure you guys did.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In elementary school.

[C]

You understand some of the stories. Right.

[A]

I know, you know, people that did psychedelics and jumped off the roof. Right. The whole.

[B]

To scary, crazy stories. Yeah. Scary tactics. But love dare, by the way.

[A]

Yeah. So I have a DARE T shirt. I actually bought one a few years ago.

[B]

Dude, the DARE T shirt still goes.

[A]

DARE T shirt. This is awesome. So.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Now, are you on prescriptions, too, before you go out there? Because you're obviously doing the hyperbaric. You're doing all these things, but I'm assuming working with therapists and doctors. There's probably some prescriptions.

[A]

Yes. Antidepressants. And that was part of the deal when he said, hey, we gotta. So they put me in contact. And that's. That's the. The thing about ibogaine, which. So ibogaine is the highest power, highest powered psychedelic there is. So, you know, there's psilocybin, there's ayahuasca. It is here compared to here. I mean, it is the highest powered. Now, it also has, you know, if you're on. It can react with SSRs, it can react with antidepressants. And send you into cardiac arrest so it can also kill you. And I'm like, it's all good. I'm fine.

[C]

Like, right, extreme.

[B]

Yeah, right extreme.

[A]

I don't care if it kills me. It kills me. It's better than the way I living right now. I mean, funny, but not funny, but that's the way I was. I'm like, if it kills me, it was supposed to be. Because this way to live is not the way I want to live. And so yes, I had to. That treatment was three weeks from that date. And they're like, you have to get off this, this and this, right? So I was on a high powered antidepressant and so I call my doctor and she's like, you can't get off that fast. I mean, you have to wean off this for months. And I said, you know, I remember the conversation. I said, is it going to kill me? And she said, no, it's not going to kill you, but you're going to have bad side effects. Like you're going to lose your mind. Like it is, it is hard to come off this stuff. And I said, I don't give a. It's not going to kill me. Hung up on her, you know, and I quit taking it. I did a half pal for one day and I'm like, I got four days to do this. I'm just gonna stop taking it. So I get, you know. But my wife knew, right? My friends knew and I knew that there was going to be side effects.

[B]

So my wife, Are you in Tahoe by yourself still? Are you back home?

[A]

We are living full time in Tahoe at this point. So we moved up there and so I'm there. My wife, you know, she knows, she knows what I told her. They said, oh, I'm gonna have effects from this. And so her and a couple friends are checking on me, right? My, my buddies would come over at five in the morning to make sure I was okay. And because I always got up super early and worked out and, and she's working me through this. But I had huge side effects. I mean, I showed up at my buddy's shop. My, my buddies are steel workers, like old school metal forgers, younger than me, but they do the old school way. And I remember showing it up at their, their shop, just raging. Didn't know how I got there and just losing, losing my. And I don't know how I got here and almost did, didn't. And they're like, whoa. And I learned later, they're like, oh, dude, you Scared us, right? So this is during that process of what I'm weaning off of, you know, when I went cold turkey on these medicines. So they got me through it. You know, my wife got me through it. And then, you know, three weeks later, I get on a plane to San Diego, meet up with this group, and then to go down to Pas. Tijuana to go get this treatment.

[B]

Jesus. That is wild.

[C]

I would have been. I would have been terrified.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The metal workers.

[B]

Oh, no doubt.

[C]

Rob is on one right now.

[B]

We've been around somebody with a manic episode before, and it's like, you really don't know how to handle it.

[A]

Yeah. One later I asked them in there because I remember it, because I remember losing it, but they were like, like, you know, I came back after healing and like, hey, what. What happened that day? Because I, you know, recalled it and relived it in my, in my treatment. But. And they're like, oh, God, you skipped shadows, like, and told me what happened. I'm like, oh, God. I'm like, you know, then I kept asking my wife, what else did I do? Right? Like, yeah, what. What did I do at home? You know? So it was kind of one of those, like, funny, but not funny, but I'm like, oh, God. Like, you kind of forget how bad stuff was. But yeah, those, they, they were, they were like, oh, you scared us. Like, they're working class, they're dudes, and they're like, we were frightened.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

You can only imagine you're a guy saying you're on a podcast. It's per. This is prescribed, Rob. Say you're on a podcast, telling the therapist, is it going to kill me? No. Click, hang up. Quick cold turkey. We don't know what kind of side effects are about to come out of Rob Gallery right now.

[B]

Yeah. So you, okay, you fly to San Diego, you meet up with Marcus Luttrell and four or five other high profile vets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you guys get in a van, head down to tj, just south of tj, like, are you in the middle of the desert? Like, talk me through this entire process as if I'm going to go take it as well. And you're giving me the map to it.

[A]

Yeah. So it was, it was full circle. So I, you know, I listen to all of Marcus's podcast and then I get there and he's come out with this story. We've talked. I've been on his podcast. We've talked about it. Right. So I'm not. Nothing. That is not out there. But I remember walking in, I'm like, holy shit, I'm out of my mind, right? Like, I'm like just trying to survive to get to the street. Milk. Holy shit. Smart. It's a troll. I remember going up to him like, idiot. Hey, I don't know if you like doing your podcast, but it saved my life a few times, like listening to it. And I remember him looking at me and look back down. That was it. I'm like, right? And so all these, these guys are in the same boat, right, Getting off all their, their 60 pack from the VA. So get in a van, drive us through Tijuana, you know, we go to a, you know, a gated, It's a nice spot, gated community. But we're going through Tijuana, right? And I'm like, where? Right? So now I'm like kind of sobering up and I'm like, you know, so you go into these episodes to where you're out of your mind, not thinking clearly to like, I'm fine. Like, I'm not really like that, right? That stuff didn't happen. I'm not, you know, I'm not suicidal. I'm not this. And I'm driving through Mexico thinking, where am I going? Like, again, I've taken it too far. Now I'm driving through the hood of Mexico, right? And I get.

[C]

That's probably playing up your story even more, right?

[A]

I'm not, I don't travel a ton. And I'm like, I grew up in small town and I live in a small town. I. I'm not a world traveler, right? So I haven't seen these other countries. And I'm like, oh my God, where are we going? So get, take us to the facility. It's a, it's in a gated community. It's a home, you know, it's just a normal house. And then we walk in and it's, it's like a medical center, right? There's part of it that looks like a healing, you know, like what you think of a psychedelic treatment center. Then we go upstairs and it's lay down, take a shirt off, blood test, make sure we're on nothing, EKG check to make sure your heart's healthy, you know, so, you know, in case we're lying, you know, right? Because this medicine, they, they've told us, right? This stuff can counter, counteract with things and it can kill you or if you have a weak heart or a heart problem, it's harder on your heart, right?

[C]

And you're like, Three weeks cold turkey. Right, right, right, right, right. Okay.

[A]

So, you know, I'm scared now. I'm scared. Like, what did I do? I'm taking this too far again, right? So I'm. Now I'm beating myself up again. Like, what are you doing? You're in Mexico in this random house with a bunch of Navy SEALs and fighter pilot, you know, these guys. What am I doing? Go through the process, you know, get checked in, they do all these tests and then we all sit down and it's a, you know, it's a therapy session, right? It's like, why are you here? Right? And it's. For whatever reason, you know, I wanted healing. And I was very honest, as were these other veterans, about why they were there, what they wanted to get rid of, right? That's part of the. This medicine is. In any plant medicine is, you know, take this from me. And I remember saying that. Take this rage from me, take this self hatred, take all these things, right? So there was ceremonies involved, right? So we do a fire ceremony. You write the stuff down, you burn it, and then they hand you a cup with some pills in it, right? And it's. It's this. It's this medicine. It's a root bark. It's an African root bark, and it's in a capsule and, you know, down the hatch and then they take you upstairs to room. There's five mattresses on the ground. Hook us up to the EKGs, get us, you know, comfortable. And. And this. Then, then it starts, right? Waiting for the, for the, for the medicine to kick in.

[C]

How. What's the fear levels like as you throw it down the hatchet, you go up, lay down on the bed. It's like, get comfortable. And at this point, you're just waiting for. I don't even know what I'm.

[B]

Because I'm thinking like the. When I first envisioned this, it's like you're in the desert sicario. Everyone's got like a handle type of thing. You're running around different places, but you're just laying down for this whole thing.

[A]

It is, this, this medicine is very. I mean, it melts you into the floor there. You can get up and move. Not too many people are. You're either getting nauseous or. But it is. I mean, it literally feels like it melts you into the floor. There's. There's not a lot of moving.

[B]

And how quickly is this medicine taking place? Like, are you fasted at this point?

[A]

Yes. So we hadn't eaten since breakfast that morning. And now so that's ate breakfast and then this is 8 o' clock at night and we're taking. So you're fasted. Gotcha. And within an hour, you know, you start. I started hearing the buzzing. So I'm scared, like I'll admit I'm, I'm in tears laying there like, you know, I get, I guess either fix me or kill me, right. Because I wanted healing at that point, right. And to me it was a last ditch effort. I didn't know if this didn't work, if I was going to make it, quite honestly, because it just gotten bad again. And I, I didn't know if this wasn't the answer because I tried everything, right. And so that was my thought during this. Well then you start having the reaction to the medicine, right? So there's. And they tell you things that are going to happen, but like this buzzing and then these feelings and I'm like, and I don't like that. Right. That's probably why I hadn't, you know, dare worked with me, right. I was scared of drugs.

[B]

Out of control.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like this is, you know, I am very much like, I like to control everything and now I'm out of control. So it was super scary. And as it kicked in more and more, right now I'm panicking and like my heart's racing. I'm like, am I going to die? And so all these things and they're great, they work you through this. You have, have therapy sessions before. They have coaching to tell you how to deal with that. So I just like, you know, they had told us just be curious and just give into it. So I just did this breathing stuff they taught us. And then, then the medicine fully kicked in. And so now, you know, you have eye shades over your eyes. You're laying on the ground. And now different, now there's buzzing and now there's, now I'm seeing lights and I'm like, holy shit. My first experience with psychedelics, right? So I'm seeing these lights coming and. And then all of a sudden I see things and they kept telling us be curious, right? So you have a therapist next to you, right? And I'm like, you know, I'm seeing this. Or they're like, just, you know, be curious, go look at it. You know, so in this mask. And so I know I'm taking my mask off to make sure I'm still in the room, right? Guys are puking because a lot of guys purge, right. So they had not a win on their part. But they had little tin buckets for our puke buckets. So everything's super intense. So all I hear is, ding, ding, ding. You know, guys, like, it's like the most intense thing you've ever been a part of. So you've got four other guys working through stuff already in the medicine.

[B]

You can obviously hear them talking about what they're going through, right?

[A]

So this is everything. It's super intense. So then I get fully into it, right? And I just remember, you know, seeing. You know, hearing these things, seeing the lights, right? So I felt like I was up in space, like, with all these lights coming at me like the stars. And. And then all of a sudden there was like, these movies, and I'm watching this movie. So it was this continual movie flying through space of my life, like, different things, right? And I didn't have. I didn't have childhood trauma. I have great family of great parents. Did I. Did I get a whooping every now and then? Because I deserved it. You know what I mean? So I'm not working through child abuse or sexual abuse, right? Like, some of these veterans are, right? But it was just more of story of my life, whether it was football, whether it was Iowa, whether it was a pros, whether it was different things. I'm watching this movie float through the sky, which sounds crazy unless you've done it, but it was this continual show, right? Going through. So I remember watching him, like, what? Why is it showing me this? And then I grab stuff. I'm like, oh, that was sweet. You know, Iowa, when we beat Michigan at Michigan. I'll take that. Kept it.

[C]

My heart.

[A]

May or may not have been in there, but things like that, right? Stuff that I. I'd grab and. And I'd throw it to my. Throw it to my heart. I want to keep that. It makes me feel good, right? And then I'd grab stuff out of the movie and I'd sling it out in the universe. And I just remember that. That reel just floating off into space. So I'm watching all this stuff, and it's right. And you're like, is this for real? Right? So you're in and out of it. Go through that. For which seemed like hours. Then there's a point. I don't remember anything. I'm like, I must have fallen asleep, whatever it was. I wake up the next morning. So this is 12 hours later, right? You're in this trip for 10 to 12 hours.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

So wake up and like, what time is it? Right? Well, instantly, I thought nothing happened because in that moment, I couldn't remember anything. And I'm like, I this up too. Like, first thing I said, I'm like, I screwed this up too. Like, I'm a failure again. And I'm. Then I go to get up.

[C]

Can't even do drugs, right?

[A]

Right. And. And that was the instant feeling because I didn't recall all of these things, like, instant instantly. And I go to get up and I'm not. And I start throwing up. I can't get up. Like, my legs don't work. Like, I'm like, oh, I messed myself up. Like, again, failure, right? Like trying to get up to go to the bathroom. Because I'd lay there for 12 hours, couldn't function. My legs, they put me in a wheelchair, rolled me to the bathroom to go to the bathroom. So I'm living through this. That morning. Finally things start coming around. But I'm definitely sick all day, throwing up all day, could not function. But things started coming back. I'm like. The real part came back to me because I feel a little bit better now. And I'm remembering like, holy crap. So I'm writing in my journal as they tell us to remember all these things I saw. I threw this away. I kept this. What. What was that? So you're trying to process these things you remember that happened. So that second day is a gray day, right? They're getting IVs, you're super dehydrated, called a great.

[B]

What's a gray day?

[A]

Gray is like a down day. It's. You're going to just feel gray, right? You're going to. You're going to feel. Feel sick. Like it is. It is physically. The medicine is physically demanding on you, physically and mentally, but it's physically demanding of high heart rate all night, you know, for 12 hours of your heart beating super fast, right? You're dealing with. So it's. You're gonna feel like crap, right? That's it. So that's why they call it the gray day. Got you. So do nothing that day. Try and get some food in. I just feel deathly sick. Finally able to get up and somewhat walk that night, go down, have a little soup. There's a picture of all of us. And I just look like. Like death warmed over. Right. Go to bed, get up the next morning and then that day. So now we do the second medicine, which is 5 Meo DMT. So they like pairing it with Ibogaine and 5 Meo because they see the ibogaine like defrags your brain, does all this healing. And the 5 Meo is more of a spiritual, a spiritual trip you take to deal stuff. Loss of ego. Do you experience death, right? More things. I'm like, so I get through this ibogaine and now it's the next morning and you smoke 5 million dnt. You smoke, right? It's toad poison and comes from. Derived from a toad. A poisonous toad.

[B]

Yeah, they call it dmt, like blasting off, right? It's like a rocket ship sending you into space.

[A]

Yes. And so now I'm scared again. I'm like, yeah, I got to go.

[B]

On another drift, the death drug, right? Like they, yes, they say like the last that seven seconds of your life or whatever that you recall everything, like that's dmt, that's a chemical thing that comes off in your body.

[A]

So they had talked to us about this and so I'm scared again, right? I'm like, I feel deathly sick from the ibogaine. Still feel terrible. And I'm just like, what am I doing? Right? And they're telling us, okay, we're gonna light the pipe. You know, it's a crap pipe looking thing. And I'm like, what, what am I doing?

[B]

Right?

[A]

But I just feel so terrible leading into it. I'm like, this is part of it, right? Just trust the process. And so go in, we go in one at a time and they do, they light it. And I mean it. Like you say rocket ship, it sends you, right? It took a drag, went back, wasn't all there, asked for more, got up, took the second drag and it was like you said, they call it the, you know, the, the death draw. I mean you. I experienced death. Like I went to, I went fully out, I came out of my body. I was not in that room where I began. I felt I could tell I was in the room for the most part, right? I could feel the floor. This was an out of body experience. I went to the white light, right? And they had talked about this and I never believed it, but I'm like, oh, I'm dying. This is it. Like to me it was what death was.

[B]

What are your emotions while you were going towards this white light? Are you actually like, is the feeling of death in this moment like high anxiety, fear, or is it more of like a freeing feeling?

[A]

It was freeing. It was, it was the most beautiful thing ever, right?

[B]

Really.

[A]

I remember floating like to, to what? You know, I was born and raised Catholic. I, you know, I have a vision of what my God is and, and what death is, but it was that exact thing Going to the white, like this is it. I mean I was so freeing. And so I get to get to the white light and. And you know, my God is there and I'm talking to God and all of a sudden I lose it and I'm like, I'm a failure, I'm a piece of shit. I'm a terrible father, I'm a terrible husband. Send me to hell. And I'm screaming at him, right? So I'm like, I don't deserve to be in heaven. And then he's like, you need to talk to her. And then my wife appeared from behind it and I'm screaming at her, telling her the same things. And all of a sudden it was just calm and this weight was lifted off me and I figured out it was my like my ego. Because they talk about ego loss. Like literally this something left my body and I was like, oh, I do deserve like instantly I deserve to be here. I'm a good father, I'm a good husband, I had a good career. All these things, this negative self talk was gone. And then it was this overwhelmingly peaceful feeling. I'm like, oh, I wish I would have known this, but now I'm dead. But that I was super peaceful. Well then I came back into, right? I. I feel myself back on the floor and I'm coming out of it and I'm like, oh, wow, right? Am I alive? I remember asking like, am I dead? And they're like, no, you're not dead, buddy. But it was this overwhelming feeling of freedom, clarity and came out of it. And it was the most enlightening thing you've ever seen. Like it's. Unless you've experienced it. And this is not just me, right? There's got talked to people who've gone through it is the most enlightening thing you've ever seen. And so came out of it. Go back in the room and. And I just felt like I was instantly back, right? That sick feeling I had 20 minutes earlier. Now I'm just like bright eyed. There's no ringing, there's. I don't feel like, I don't feel sick. I don't feel any of those negative effects. And I literally felt like, like I could go run a marathon. I remember walking back in the room, right? And all the other guys are looking at me because I went last and I'm like, I'm, I'm back. That's exactly what I said. I'm like, I'm back, right? So it was the hearing things and like after coming out of It. They sit you in the grass to, like, come back. And I remember touching the grass, right. And feeling the energy from the earth. And I'm like, what is all this? Right? I could hear everything. I could hear the. The birds. I could hear the ocean that was two miles away.

[B]

The.

[A]

I felt like I was in the. The movie Big, where the grass was like, super tall around me, like I was a midget. And I could hear all the grass rustling and all these sensations in. In things that I could hear and feel. I was like. And I didn't know it at the point, but I'm just like, holy cow, this is amazing. Go back in the room, talk to the guys. And everybody's just like, right? And you're enlightened. So something worked, right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So get through that. But I definitely. I was like, oh, something's different. We went to the beach. We did. Went for a walk as a group. I remember watching the waves one wave at a time. I'm like, man, I am. Something's going on. Like, I can see every single wave turning and the water, like, the droplets coming off it. And I'm like, am I still high? Like, no, this is like, you're in the moment. You're, you know, so some of you're like, yeah, whatever, hippie, right? But I was like, whatever is. This is great. I remember turning to Marcus and like, saying to him, like, hey, I'm. I'm supposed to be worrying about something, and I'm worried, and I'm supposed to be worrying about something, but I'm not worrying. Right. Just babbling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it was clear. Everything was clear. There was nothing. Nothing in my head. It was complete clarity. And then, so next day, we drive back to San Diego. My wife came and met me down there with some of the other wives and walked into the restaurant we met him at, that we originally left from. And she says, you know, when she walked in, she's like, I knew something was different. She's like, I could see your eyes. Your eyes were wide open. They were bright white. Because she had said it that in the past. She's like, your eyes were just dead. Like, you just. You had no life in your eyes. You were always tired. And she's like, I knew instantly something was different. And she's like, I could just see it the way you guys were all giggling and laughing and like these grown badass men, like, hugging each other and crying and just. She's like, you guys were so happy and so fast forward. We stayed in San Diego, San Diego, for a Couple of days to reintegrate. Because they talk about that, right? You're gonna have this life changing experience and you got to reintegrate. Like, may not be the best thing to go back home to kids, right. Initially. So we spent a couple days in San Diego and we just started learning. She noticed it more. I notice it now, or I recall it now, but noticing things that happened that were different. So I had a therapy session the second day I was back. Get on. My computer won't connect to the Internet. Now. If that had happened pre treatment, that computer probably wouldn't have made it through. It probably would have been broken against a wall. Right? Because you're a loser. You're a piece of shit if you're late to a meeting. You guys, I'm sure, have PTSD like that about. I do. Being late, showing up late to anything. Anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm. I just remember trying to get on to it. I'm like, okay, must be something, right? And my wife's running around like a maniac. And I'm like. I remember thinking like, what is going on? She came and grabbed the computer, took off out the door. I just remember sitting there, I'm thinking, like, man, what's going. What's going on with her? Yeah, she comes back. I ended up getting on my phone, I was three minutes late, and it was no big deal. Do my therapy session with the lady. And I got off and I said, hey, what's going on? Right? She's like, what do you mean? And I'm like, you run around like a crazy person, right? Yeah. And she's like. And I remember just looking at me like, what are you talking about? Like. And she later said, like, if that would have happened in the past, like, do you know what would have happened? Do you know what your reaction would have been? Do you know how you. What you would have done to that computer or what you would have said to me? And so things like that start happening. We fly back home, come in the house. You know, my wife had warned the kids, hey, dad, might be different. Well, six hours later, I'm on the floor whipping around in their sweatshirts, you know, slinging them around like mops, creating chaos. Like you wouldn't, you know, screaming and yelling, and I'm down there tickling them. And I remember looking at her and she's. I remember the look on her face. She was just like, mouth wide open, like, what in the hell is going on? Didn't recall it in the moment. I remember her reaction, but I didn't really put anything like whatever, right? Playing with the kids. And so time goes on. Days, weeks, months. And my reactions are different. And for me personally, there's no, there's no brain fog. I'm super clear, no ringing in my ears. There's zero suicide stuff. There's zero depression, there's zero anxiety. I'm like going to pick the kids up at school with my wife and talking to the other moms and the dads and she's like, you haven't, you've never done this. Yeah, right. I was a guy that sat in the car and waited for the kid to come get in. I didn't want to interact with anybody. And so I'm just a different human being. And so as time goes on, we learn more and more things.

[C]

Now are you getting back into the routines of like the cold tub and hyperbaric and.

[A]

Yeah, so I had a lot of that stuff, but I added a lot of stuff because they teach you that through this too is like, hey, you know, meditation. You should learn to meditate, right? That's a big part of being in the moment and helping this treatment stick. And so I'm trying to learn how to meditate, right? I'm doing. And I got right back into my routine up early, but I loved it. It wasn't for survival. It was, you know, it's because I wanted to make me feel good. Cold tub was great. I, you know, would go for a walk and be like stoked to be alive. Right before I went, I was training for a 5k because my buddy and I said we were going to do it. And he's the one that ended up taking his life. But I'm like, oh, I'm gonna follow through on this. So I'm out running and remember crossing the street and looking at the trees. I mean the trees are so beautiful and green and everything was vibrant and oh, that semi stop for me, right? I'm gonna cross the street. Where in the past I'm like, like, you know, that same instance happened before I went and I would stop there and be like, okay, it'll look like an accident. Just step out in the road because semi's not going to stop.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

So it's a complete same instances are happening and it's a different reaction. I'm like, oh, that's weird. This is great. So just all those things start happening. The clarity, like pre treatment, I was forgetting my kids names. I'd be like, what's she doing? What are you talking about? On like her, her what's her name? She's like, Hayden. You know, so those things are happening. And now I'm like, I'm crisp. Like, I'm up every morning and I go for a bike ride, and then I go wake surfing. And then I'm like, I'm gonna do this. And like, I'm just high on life. So this happens, you know, for three, four months, right? And I remember the first day I got my first anxiety. I'm like, oh, what is that? And I was anxious, right? It wasn't a big deal. Something small. It's like, oh, I'm nervous to go to this thing, right? So over time, things started popping back in, right? But I had this new thought process of things and so fast forward, right? Because this is not a, this medicine is not a magic pill. It's not, you know, it took multiple times for me. So now we're in it. You know, things started coming back. Then I started having some ideation again. I got Covid and took the, whatever the pill is for Covid that has, you know, they say on there it can have a metallic taste. So I remember having my first suicide nightmare. I had Covid, took this medicine, remember waking up gripping my neck because I thought I had a gun in my mouth because of the metallic taste from the medicine. So it was my first suicide nightmare again. So when originally 2021, now we're pushing close to 2023, things have popped back in. I'm not near as bad as I was, but still having some of the old.

[B]

You're starting to see some of this old programming come back up.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

How long, how long did you have the residual from the, the, the trip? Nothing felt clarity.

[A]

You felt like four months of absolutely nothing. I'm talking no anxiety. The, the most high in life. And then, then at about a year, little things started popping back in, right? Some of the anger stuff started coming back. Some of the uncontrollable outburst or, you know, like I said, jump my Harley and go 90 mile an hour into town. Christmas, my, you know, talk about this a lot, But Christmas before 2023, my parents were out, and I remember taking my son for a haircut. And I was in the truck, and I'm like, mom, dad, I'm struggling again. And I said, I, I, if I, if I mess up. Because at this point, it wasn't like, oh, this is how I'm gonna make it go away. But I'm like, I'm gonna screw up. I'm gonna screw up on my Harley. I'm gonna Screw up and I might end up killing myself, I'm gonna screw up. And I'm, I, I'm very much with it. And I've learned a lot of things. And I told my parents, hey, you guys were great parents. If I mess up and kill myself, it's not your fault, right? So I was back in that bad spot again.

[B]

And so was it as bad?

[A]

It wasn't as bad. It wasn't near as bad. But when you've been to super clarity and then things come back, it's like the first day of Way Heavier. Feels way heavier. And it wasn't before. It was all the time. So I could deal with it all the time. I was in that mindset all the time. Now it was a little bit here, a little bit there, but it seems more intense. So I go back for treatment again. 20, 23. So that's two years from my first one. Very similar experience on, on ibogaine, things super sick. I felt like it, you know, defrag did things. I worked through some stuff. A lot of the same visions, new visions. Then the real turning point for me was the next day, the 5 Meo DMT again. So I smoke the 5 Meo and I die. I saw that I'd killed myself. It wasn't this peaceful death that I saw the first time. I messed up and I killed myself, right? Whether it wasn't necessarily suicide, it was a vision of me on my Harley, right, weaving through cars. And I'm watching that and I killed myself. And then I saw what it did to my family. I'm watching down from the sky now. I'm up at that. I'd gone to that killed myself, went to the white light. I'm watching down. I see what it did to my family. So I'm watching my kids age and I'm seeing how it messed them up. I'm seeing what it did to my wife. Because before I left for the second treatment, I had told my wife, again, I'm a burden, like. And I got back to that mindset that you're better off without me, unfortunately. And. And so it showed me in this, I saw what it did to them. And I was like, oh, God, this is not right. I remember thinking like, oh, I'm gonna mess them up, right? And that's sounds like a crazy person, but I didn't think that before. I thought I gotten back to this old Robert, right? Even at, you know, maybe not all the time. So this is going to mess them up. And then I saw what it actually did to them. Woke up out of this. I actually started throwing up. So I reacted to, you know, and I think I woke up in kind of towards the end of this trip. And so I thought I died. So they're cleaning my mouth, right? So I'm puking. They're cleaning my mouth out. And I start raging because I thought. I literally think I'm dead. I'm like, this is hell. Like, I. Whatever it was, I was in a spot. I thought I was dead. And I grabbed the therapist and I'm raging, screaming at him like I couldn't. I effed up my family. I'm, you know, screaming, and just then I'm throwing them on the ground and just complete rage. And I remember my female therapist was there that we work with, and I grabbed here, and I'm like, you got to call my wife. Tell him I'm. Tell her I'm sorry. So I think I'm dead. I'm back on earth out of this trip, but I'm still half in it, I think. But I literally thought I was dead. And so this happens. I later found out I raged for like 20 minutes, and they're calming me down, and some things happen. And finally I calmed down and realized I was back on Earth and I wasn't actually dead. But I kept asking him, like, did I die? Did you guys resuscitate me? It was that profound. And so I come out of it, and I was just in shock. So where before it was blissful. And this time I was like. I mean, I was in shock for hours even, till we got back. I got back home, and I'm telling my wife about it, and I'm like, I think they're lying to me. I think they had to resuscitate me. Like, I pushed it too far. And so as I process all this. But what I. What did stick and the rewiring, the medicine, what it did do is that it made me see what would happen if I did screw up, did take my life in one way or another. And that has stuck with me since that day. Like, if something pops up now, I know full well on my worst day, I'm better off here, and my family's better off without me or is better with me. Even the days I'm, you know, if I have a bad day or I get angry and that stuff doesn't happen since then, you know, happens like we. Happens when you're a dad and, you.

[B]

Know, the normal type of angry.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

If anybody's watching this and probably thinking, and I'm assuming this you can tell.

[A]

Me if I'm right. Wrong.

[B]

But, like, you're not going to take this medicine. Everything, all your issues are always going to be fixed, but you're going to have better tools and better understanding of where your value is in life.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. And these, like this instance for me is like, oh, I'm. I am. You know, I. And I didn't believe it before, and I truly believe it even, you know, no matter what happens, right. Even worst case, I never want to have. I get dementia. I'm better off here. My family needs me. Right? And so that's what this experience showed me. And so since then, it's been, you know, I have the tools now. And it rewired some things. They're showing that, you know, ibogaine specifically, actually scientifically rewires your brain, right? It's growing new white brain matter. So Dr. Nolan Williams, you know, God rest his soul, he has passed since this study, but he did a study with 30 vets, special ops vets, and improving it, right? That's a big part of this movement with this medicine. It's actually proving not only the spiritual part, but it is, you know, creating new neural pathways. It is actually fixing brain damage or working around it. Right? So my damage is still there, but I'm creating new neural pathways around it. And so knowing all this on top of the spiritual stuff since then, I have the tools. And I know I knew after these treatments that my something was working on my brain. I mean, for days afterwards, I would. In months or weeks, I could just feel like a buzzing in my head. Right? I'm like, something. Something's working up there.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. And then I notice all the, again, all the emotional changes. And so since 2023, right. None of that stuff has really come back, right? Like, yes. Do I get anxious? Yes. Do I. It is not the magic pill, but I have the tools, right? I know now to write if something pops in, it's like, nope. I see that vision of what I did to my family, right? And I. I don't have these over the top reactions like I did before, before the brain fog. And that stuff is gone. Do I still have days? I get a little brain fog. Yes, right. You know, late it. You know, I'm sure, like, you guys, you're like, late in the day, it's like, oh, wow, that something's not working right. You know, but for the most part, before it was 24 7. Now I'm super clear, right, to get talking fast because I'm like, I'm Just crisp and everything's working good. And so I know not only the scientific part of it, but the spiritual part of it. I know I'm a different human being. And my wife will still bring stuff up, up, you know, something will happen. I'll get frustrated, be like, oh, I overreacted on that. Right. I'm very aware. Right. Oh, I shouldn't. Reacted like, she's like, your son just walked out in the street and almost got hit by a car when we were, you know, instance, going to our. Get on our boat. And I grabbed him and. And I lit into him like, you gotta walk. Right. And then I felt bad. I'm like, oh, the old Robert's back. And she's like, that's what a dad should do, right? That is a normal reaction.

[B]

Protected your child.

[A]

Yeah. And so she's like, no, you're. She brings it up to me all the time. She's like, you know, I can. She can trust me to take the kids to soccer practice, basketball practice, and, and not worry about me. One, forgetting where I'm at, or two, having a reaction around people. So it's. Daily stuff happens. And, you know, the fact that I flew here by myself, she's like, just a little step like that. Five years ago, you couldn't do that. I would have had to be with you because you would either lost it in the airport, you know, wouldn't have forgot where you were, whatever these things were. So it's. That my life is different now because of the tools I have. And I know that some of the work it's done. Right. I went through the. Some of the, you know, you guys will find it funny, but I went through some of the brain concussion stuff pre. Pre medicine and post medicine. Right. So I. Pre medicine, I'm doing, you know, jumping through the hoops. Right, Right. You know, your baseline test, the 10 years of. Of stuff they make you jump through to try and get something out of it. And I finally was like, I don't care. I don't care about this, you know, So I. I had had a couple of doctor's appointments pre medicine and a couple post medicine. So I come back post medicine, and it is. I'm like, you know, pre medicine, I'm talking about, you know, suicide and talking about these things. And post medicine, my. My scores are better. My. Everything's better. And they're like, oh, you don't qualify. I'm like, of course I don't.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But at that point, I didn't care because I. I mean, that showed Me because some of my scores and some of the things that happened pre and post, I'm like, I'm definitely a different person.

[C]

Right.

[A]

My scores are better. Like my. Cleared my recall and it's kind of funny. But I'm also like, of course, of course I went and did something else that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it, you know, a lot of guys do it, you know, want the money or want the. Because they deserve it. But I was just like, I just, I want to be healthy. So I kind of laughed it off and it's like, oh, this is showing me now on top of everything else that, that I am. Things are fixed or drastically better.

[C]

Yeah. Have you gotten a brain scan since the first one you got where it was like it looked like somebody took a baseball bat to it?

[A]

I did the part where. So my initial brain scan was a spect scan. It's called a spec scan. Right. Which measures, it gives you a 3D image. It measures the surface of your brain, pretty much things that are living or not living. So it measures electrical current in your brain and it measures blood flow. What they are finding out. So I got the same scan afterwards thinking, oh, see it drastically better. But what I learned is that's not the correct scan to do that. Now does that measure damage? Absolutely. But they're learning and this is where this medicine is new. They're, these neuro. Neurologists are learning that that scan, for whatever reason, there's been a few people like me, it doesn't show a drastically better brain. Now why is that? Well, depression, all these things is inflammation. So I had huge inflammation on my brain. So that's why certain parts were lit up. And then it shows the dead parts. Ibogaine takes inflammation away. So now some of this actually some of it looks worse or the same because I have less inflammation. It's not actually creating the surface of a new. Those areas that were damaged. It's the internal stuff. So a long winded way of answering that is an FMRI actually looks deep into the brain. That's what that Dr. Nolan Williams used at Stanford. And they can see the new white brain matter. They can see the new neural pathways. So I messed up, which I can accept now. Right. Right.

[C]

You're thinking, damn, I wish I would have had this scan or MRI before. So you can actually see for sure whether it's rewiring or exactly the.

[A]

The actual. Where they can sign. And they did it in the study from Stanford. You can look at the study and it shows the brain new areas internally where mine was more the surface of how was everything currently working? It's not the in depths of new things starting. So long story short, it was kind of a bummer, but it was also. That's why I didn't want to get another one because I'm like, I know I feel better. And at the end of the day, it was the wrong scan to do. It was right to figure out the damage. But the neurologist, like, hey, we don't understand it either. Right. For whatever reason, the psychedelics part of it, because of the inflammation, this is not the right scan. This is more of a surface level where the FMRI goes deep into it. It. Which I am going to get at some point. But it would have been nice to have a baseline. But.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You look at these, the study they did, and they have pre and post FMRI and it's black and white on there that there is new stuff growing and that. That's. That's the standard for what you need from the psychedelics.

[C]

Isn't there. Isn't there somebody that put like, what was it, like $50 million toward a. Yeah.

[A]

So through this process I became, you know, the, the military community became my older football family. Right. So, you know, Marcus is a very close friend. We talk almost daily. He's just a guy that we check in. It's, you know, telling stories. He'll call, hey, this happened. And I, I used to react like this. Guess what I did? I laughed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like just stuff to. We talk about how we used to be. Now we're different. Our wives talk. But through the community, I met and Marcus neighbor Capone with Vet Solutions. They started really. They treated. They've treated a couple thousand guys now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's. And I'm not talking. It works for a couple. I mean, you could bring. Of the 2,000 they've tested, you bring almost all 2,000 in here and you're going to hear the same story really. Right. One level or another. Sometimes one treatment, sometimes two. Took two for me, but you're going to hear the same story. It is. The results are astounding. And so I got introduced to some people, you know, with this study through Stanford, and then they started going a group put together to go to Texas. They were trying to get money from Texas to study it. So former governor of Texas, Rick Perry, he asked me to be involved. He's heading all this, or was. So we were in Texas working with politicians, legislators, and they signed a bill and again, I'm a small Lego in this thing, but gave my story. They signed A bill that put $50 million towards the study of ibogaine for PTSD, TBI addiction. It's huge on addiction. I haven't drank since my first treatment in 2021, haven't had a drop of alcohol, have zero interest in having any alcohol. It is. So it's huge for addiction. So they originally started using ibogaine with heroin addicts. They still do like 80 some percent of heroin addicts will go through this treatment and not touch heroin again. So it's huge. Huge for addiction. Yeah. You know, Marcus, these guys were on numerous, right. They call it the military 60 pack right. Of antidepressants, all these things. The majority of them are not on any of their pills. Ton of these guys don't drink. Marcus has never drank again. Right. There's tons of stories like mine. So Texas put the money, signed that bill here a few months ago. So they're going to start studying it. They're going to do trials on veterans, on athletes to, to try and get this passed. Because it is currently a Schedule 1 drug. Right. It's. So there's that loophole to jump through to get it off schedule one. So they're got that money and then we started the. Which I'm a part of also is the American ibogaine initiative. So other states now are trying to pull funds from their state to study it. So there's scientific proof and they want to continue it to show, hey, this is, this is just not a spiritual drug. This is not what everyone thinks it is. This is a medicine that will drastically help people's mental health and help fix parts of their tbi. Like, like it did me and has done done other guys. So there's lots of things going on within this realm of this medicine that there's not a, there's not a stigma of the old, you know, psilocybin or ayahuasca. There's. Because it's so unknown. But that's why we're having, you know, having success and things like that. And that's what brought me to create my foundation, which is Athletes for Care. And so I saw all these veterans and I saw what it was doing for them. I saw what it did for me. And going through this couple year process, you know, I was like, I want to help guys because I finally opened up after healing, called a couple of my friends that I disappeared for like 10 years. Right. Guys I played with and like hey, sorry, you know, I just was going through some stuff. Here's what happened. And then like, oh, so then I Had guys reaching out. Hey, I'm going through this. Or I. The anger part resonated with me. Like, what's that like? Or the suicide stuff. And so I'm like, man, I could help people.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. Because I'm not the only. I thought I was the only guy. Right. I'm the only NFL football player that got done.

[B]

Classic, man.

[A]

Yep. I'm the only guy out there going through this. Right. And I don't want. No one else wants to hear about it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I started having these stories, and I'm like, I want to help. Right? Because I'm like that. And my wife's like, you know, saved our. Saved your life, saved our marriage. It saved, you know, saved you. Like, you're back as a human being. And so started Athletes for Care. And what we want to do is, you know, be a voice for athletes. I want, you know, we're doing this storytelling because then I went on Marcus's podcast, right? The outreach we got from that. We get guys, ex athletes in all sports calling like, hey, this is me, right? The same thing you talking. I think it's me. You know, whether it's all the stuff. Some of the stuff. So educating athletes that, hey, there are other options. I'm not saying ibogaine is the magic pill. Everyone should go do it. But when other things don't work, it's an option. It's another modality of something that can help it. Help me. I can show you 2,000 other guys that it helped drastically. And so we want to be a resource, and I want to be a resource for these guys. And I've had more and more people reach out, and I'm sure, like, you guys, I know these guys, right? There's guys we played with that you see around town or you see at an event, and you're like, that dude's got a screw loose. Yeah, Right. And it's not. I don't mean to make it funny, but there's. They're either coping with alcohol or drugs. And I've been around these guys, and I'm like, oh, man, they need this medicine.

[B]

Because there's guys you play with and you look at them and you'll have like a concerning conversation with, like, a team may have been like, that's a guy you have to worry about after football. Like, a lot of guys you have to worry about. But some guys just. Even when they're playing, you're like, I can see where something could happen there for sure. Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, and it's not Always, right? I was pre, pre this healing, you see, and it's unfortunate like these guys that make the news because they do something drastic, right? Whether it's suicide or hurting, right. You know, hurting their neighbor or there's been instances of that to where like this dude's lost his rocker, right? Right now you look at it and I'm like, check his brain. Right? And a lot of it now they are checking their brain. So it's TBI related issues, right? The rage, anger, all that stuff. And so being able to tell the story and be a resource for these people that are going through what I did, yeah, it's, it's not fun, right? Sit here and tell you the stories about my kids and those things, right? But it's healing for me and the amount of people that is like, dude, you saved my life by talking about it because you were, you know, strong enough to like put your out there, right? Like, thank you. And so that's, that's why I continue to, to do this with athletes for care because there are lots of guys that are suffering and there's, you know, there's, there's ways of healing and that's why I want to be. Help push this medicine forward and just be a resource for guys that, hey, maybe, maybe ibogaine isn't for you. But hey, why don't you try this, right? Why don't you try the cold water therapy? Why don't you try these breathing exercises, right? I'm. I've turned into a super focused hippie, right? Because I, you know, like you. We've talking about it, the, the longevity stuff, right? I get up and I do breathing exercises in the morning.

[B]

Chains. Yeah.

[A]

And it's, there's so many things you can do. But that medicine for me got me years ahead and I know fix some stuff. But now I'm. I'm addicted, right? I'm addicted to, to doing those things. And I do, I get up at 4 in the morning, I go get my cold tub, I do my meditation, I do my breathing, I do my workout, I do my hyperbaric chamber. I know these tools. If I walk into a gym and I get activated because it's loud, I'm still, I don't like chaos, right? That's who I am. I'm very straightforward as a dad, as a coach, as a person. But I walk in and I get activated because, you know, everyone's not us. I don't know how you guys are with your kids. I'm guessing we're very similar, right? This Is not a free for all, right? Kids act a certain way, right? We walk into a gym and people are bouncing off the walls and no judgment on their parenting, but it, it activates me, right? But now it's not this over the top activation that I have to leave the gym. It's like, I'm okay. They're not my kids. It's not my problem. Right? My kids are doing what they're supposed to. I can walk in, I can sit down. I can not be up there shaking because of the reaction. It's like, yep, sitting here to watch my daughter and enjoy what she's doing or whatever. One of my kids, I'm watching or if we're coaching now, I'm. I'm coaching, you know, with my wife. We're coaching basketball. We're about to start the high school basketball season coaching girls. And it's the greatest thing in the world. I couldn't have done that five years ago.

[B]

When you, when you talk about being in your vulnerable state and saving as many people, there's like, you hear a lot of stories about people who have gone through processes either similar to yours or whatever, and how they've, you know, changed so many people's lives. Have your, has your wife ever told her side of the story and been vulnerable in those senses because you talk about, you know, as you're telling me this story, I'm thinking, like, it's amazing the amount of growth you've had and how you're very humble. Sitting on this bus, talking about these hard times that I've had. And this is the process that it took and this is where I'm at now. And I just think about your wife and as you come out of this first medicine and she's seeing a different version of you, there's probably a bunch of stones that haven't been unturned for her of like different things that maybe you did that she hasn't healed from. There's a process for her to heal through. Has she ever been able to kind of tell her side of the story in these things?

[A]

It's funny you ask. Ask. We just did it. We went to, went to Iowa last week. I did some mental health work with the athletic department with current student athletes, you know, not regarding psychedelics, just more mental health in general.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Met with the psychiatric department. We're collabing with them at the University of Iowa. But we sat down and she had a couple hour interview and it's the first time she's told her story. She's. She's given tidbits on different things that she's. People she spoke to with different articles that they've done on me. But we have that in the pipeline to come out because I took a good friend of mine from Iowa, he played in the league. He was struggling. And I talked to him about this two years ago, and about a year and a half ago, he reached out. He's like, I need help. I need to go do this. So I went down with him to Mexico just to hold space. And I remember this is when it hit me, like you said, because I was down there and I called my wife and said, hey, can you call such and such's wife and kind of tell her what it's going to be like when they get back? Because remember how much we struggled. Right. Because she was. She was. For a long time, she was like, oh, it's great. You're fixed. That's awesome.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, I've been living through all this stuff. And it's also.

[B]

There's a level of resentment she has, like, for sure. Multiple years of going through all these things.

[A]

Yeah. So she, you know, that's when it hit me. I was like, we need to. If she wants to. And she did. She's willing to tell it because it's the wives and the kids that go through it. And so she called my buddy's wife and. And it was great because she wasn't really into him going down there. She's like, what is Robert doing? Like, they're going to. He's taking him to Mexico, do drugs. And I was, trust us. Right. Well, then he gets home and I waited. I didn't want to call and ask, how's he doing A week later, get a call from her or a text. It's like, I'm sorry I didn't believe in this when you left. He is a different person. Thank you so much. No, and the stuff you told me. And then we're like, okay, well, now here's this gonna happen, right? You're gonna get some resentment coming up. Up, just like my wife did. And she did. She called my wife and was like, yep, it's there. He's. He's fixed. It's all great. You know, tell me to relax.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Like, because I'm the one reacting now. So it's a big part of this whole story is. Is the entire part of it. And that's what Marcus and Amber Capone did for me at vets. They are my best friends now. One of my best friends, because they took that call for me. Right. And that's why I want to help other guys. And it's just another. It's a way of. Of healing, right? Because we all have our issues, right? We're always going to have our issues. Right? But. And it's not. Not that it's not everyone in the world, but, you know, athletes especially, right. You come out of being what we were in the identity and all these things, and, like, we're full bore, you know, So I want to start with that and help guys, you know, get healing. And that's, you know, this is how I know how to do it.

[C]

Yeah. I just, I sit here and think it's like, how do you reach another Robert Gallery out there? That's more so in the. The phase of the years until you decided like, hey, I need help. The moment on the, on the driveway where you look up at your wife and you say, I need help, like the guy that isn't wanting to hear it. I feel like that's always the. That's always got to be the challenge, right?

[A]

It is. And I think that's. I think, talking about it, I've learned. I've had numerous guys that have, like, hey, seen you talk about it. They reach out. Like, I'm having the same thing. Seeing you talk about it made me reach out. Am I ready to go to Mexico? No. Some of them are. We've. We've helped guys get down there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think it's just the vulnerability. So it's not just me, right? It's, you hear. You know, that's just this day and age, too, is like, not only athletes, but you hear Marcus Luttrell talk about it. You hear DJ Shipley, these guys were the baddest dudes on the face of the earth. And what they did, right? And you hear them talk about it, right? And that's what did it for me. Like to sit in a room and cry with a bunch of Navy seals and hug and tell them you love them, right? This stuff that you're. Like, 10 years ago, none of us would have said that.

[C]

Right, Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? So to. To be vulnerable and talk about this, you know, we've been getting a lot of outreach and guys like, hey, something's going on. You know, I don't know if I'm ready. But this, you know, stay. Keep me in the loop on. On what you're doing. Because just that talking about it makes people think it's okay to like, oh, shit, that's me. And we've had guys I've had a couple of guys that reached out, had heard my story on a different podcast or a news article, went and did the medicine, went on their own, like, wanted healing, went and did it, and then reached out again, or reached out, then post treatment is like, dude, you saved my life. Like, and that's pretty cool.

[C]

Hit him with Marcus Luttrell at the first spot. Like, I don't know if you like your stuff, but you saved my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, you know, the days, it's that I'm, you know, working on the business side of having a. A foundation. Right. Like, trying to raise money and do all these things that you got to do to keep running, and you get an email like that, and you're like, holy cow. Like, there is a reason.

[B]

And it's.

[A]

It's pretty cool. And, you know, sit and talk to guys. There's been numerous ex players that I've been events with and what are you up to now? And it just wasn't me preaching like, you should go do medicine. It's just more, oh, this is what happened. I went dark, did this, found healing in this. And they're like, oh, right. I've had numerous guys, like, the rage thing, he's like. And it's like they relive what I was doing. And so I hope they, you know, find something that helps them. But there's lots of guys like that. It's not everybody. I'm not playing, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you guys, I'd go do the whole thing all over again. I'd go back to Iowa and do the same stuff and hit the same way and be the guy that was trying to kill people with my head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's what I was. I was. I was not a finesse guy. Right. I was a smash, a face mask, through your face mask type of guy.

[C]

Be ready to die on the field.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yeah, there's this moment, moments.

[B]

On Saturdays in the fall where you're just like, man, if I died out here, this is an honorable death.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm willing to do it.

[A]

Yeah. It's a sick part about it. And I'm still right. That's also the thing with the medicine. It's not. I'm not a hippie now. Like, yes. Do I do focused hippie.

[C]

I am.

[A]

Right. Because you've seen me like, like in the airport. Right. Things are getting. Activating me. Right. It's like chaos. I don't like chaos. There's a bunch of noises because I can hear now. I Can hear. And I'm thinking clearly. I'm like, oh, there's a lot going on in here. So I sit in the corner, right? Close my eyes and. And I'm sure people like, who is this massive tattooed dude in the corner?

[B]

He's out there meditating, doing my.

[A]

And it's awesome. It's a great feeling to be, you know, healed and be that much far ahead of where I was and to be able to offer it and to other people and guide them through maybe before they get to where I get. That's my whole. My whole goal with athletes for care is to be there before they get to where I got. Telling my wife, like, here's all this stuff, right? Let's get, you know, the. The rage stuff now that you're recognizing, right? That's what leads to this other stuff that's part of tbi. That's the reality of it, right? Not blaming the league, not blaming anyone. Like I said, I do it all over again. But like, like, let's offer healing. And that's a big part of what we're doing and. And why I'm on here.

[C]

What's your relationship like with football now?

[A]

You know, when I got.

[C]

And how has it changed since? Probably the bitter taste you had in your mouth, you left.

[A]

Yeah. I can sit and enjoy and watch a game with my son because he loves it. Am I going to choose to on a Saturday or Sunday in December when it's dumping snow out, stay and watch. Watch the NFL games on Sunday ticket rather than being on the mountain snowboarding? Absolutely not. Right? I'm not a. I was never that way. Like, I'm not a guy that sit and watches it every weekend. But I can turn it on now. My son can turn it on. Like, dad, let's watch. Watch the football game. Like, sure, buddy. Where pre all this, I would lose it. Like, turn that stuff off. It was this. All this hatred towards football's for the.

[B]

Devil type of stuff.

[A]

Yeah, it was. I hated it. I didn't want to watch it because it brought back all the negative stuff. Well, you're a failure. You should still be playing. 45 years old. I shouldn't be playing still. Right? But it was all these things that go through your head as an ex athlete to where now it's fun with my son to watch it. And I was like, oh, dad, George Kittle's on the. You know, it's like, you know, I know George and his family and to hear my son be so excited about. Oh, you know, I was watching Receiver and you know, am I going to sit and watch it? I will. Because he wants to.

[B]

Dude, isn't it? You're bringing up George Kittle. Isn't it so crazy that you went to Iowa and a young 8 year old George Kittle waited in line for an hour for you to take a photo with you as a kid and then now because of how long you waited and signed those photos and autographs and all those things, things, he's now a guy that does that because he saw you do that. And now your kids watching George Kittle being like, holy George Kittle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Isn't that just nuts?

[A]

It's amazing. And to hear that I heard that, you know, George and his dad shared that story with me and I had no idea. Right. And showed me the picture and it's. Yeah, it's a big deal because we get in the thing. It's like, you know, I remember doing that. I remember standing there because I'm like, I can't let these kids down. I was that kid. I was that kid when my brother was playing, waiting for Tim Dwight to get an autograph.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so to have that relationship with them, you know, and George is actually, George has been great. Like we're doing a fundraiser with him through All True. It's a rally fundraiser. They're, they're actually giving away a Himalaya EV Defender vehicle. Right. So if you go to all true.com and check that out, George is awesome.

[C]

Rudolph.

[A]

Exactly. Carl Rudolph started it. And, and George does a lot of things for them. We have a lot of things intertwined. Like he's big in the military community. You know, what he's done with his career, you know, is great, but all the other stuff he does. So it's great to partner with them. You know, they're going to help raise funds through that All True fundraiser for our organization for athletes, for care and just, just good human beings right there, you know, that's, that's the Midwest, the Midwest in them. And, and you know, they're Iowa guys. So what else, what else would you expect?

[C]

Yeah. How, how hard was it to eventually love your career and love what you accomplished and love what you did? Because I can imagine, I can only imagine how angry you probably would be at times being a number two overall pick. And like I just, I can just tell listening to you, you loved the game of football. You loved fucking grinding. You loved putting on £100. You love imposing your will against the opponent and working out and grinding and getting, getting better and for your career you know, we're all psychos. We all want to be the greatest. For it not to work out in. In a way, of the expectation of the world and everything else. I'm sure that you were very bitter for a while, and because you talked about your ego death, you talked about you speaking on it, and it was very fleeting. But loving your career, when you said you were coming out of it from the spiritual side of everything, I'm sure that was very hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, it is. Right. We're competitors. That stuff doesn't go away. But this, you know, this whole journey led me to. There's a lot of other. And you guys know it. Right. Like, there's a lot of other factors that go into what happens. Right. So I. I look back at my career at Iowa and why was I so successful there? Because the head coach that started in 1999 is still there in 2026. Right. So it was the same coach, the same system. Right. And all these other things, but it's about. Right. You look back and, yeah, we. You played 10 years, you think you should have played 12. You played 12. Right. It doesn't matter. Right. At the end of the day, that's who we are as competitors. Could have played 20 years, and I'm sure I'd be sitting here playing. I should have played 22. Right. Like, this whole expectation of what you should do. Yeah. So it's. Yeah, it's. It's also looking at things in a healthy way. There's a lot of things that are in life are out of your factors that affect what happens. Right. And you have a story in your head of how you want things to happen. But it's. Yes. It's a Sit here, and, like, I'm proud of what I did. Right. I. I didn't dwindle it away because I was out, you know, not. Not putting everything into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yes, it's. It's. It's a much better relationship now. And that's. You know, I wouldn't be here. You know, that's part of the spiritual part of it. I wouldn't be here talking about this if all that stuff didn't happen.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So it's part of the process. It was supposed to be for me. Did I still want to go to the playoffs every year or a year? Never. Never knew. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That stuff still bothers me. Right. It gets the playoff time, and I'm like. I mean, it doesn't debilitate me, but I'm like, yeah, well, that's a, that'd be.

[C]

See the guys winning January.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You see the winning team having. Funny. Just like, man.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And, and as you guys know, when you're winning, it's, it's fun, right. And it's easy. Right. And then you're like, I got bull rush there, but didn't matter because we were rolling and he got it out and like, you know, that happened. Happens in a, you know, you're losing and you're, you know, down 20 and you're, we're past blocking every single one. Like, hold on.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's the worst. When you open up the second half and you're like two minute boys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, hold on. Yeah. Like nothing for the rest of the game. You're just praying to get a couple slides your way. Hey, that's the worst feeling in the world when it comes to career, dude. Like we've talked about. I, I still miss playing football, but I am extremely proud of like, if you, if you're able to be proud of what you were able to accomplish and put giving 100 effort at the end of the day, like the result of, you know, everyone has this like idea in your head of like how you're going to write the end of your story. And everyone has it the same way like Tom Brady did it or these other, you know, 1% of 1% of 1% guys did. And it's like if you gave everything you had to it and then there's nothing to be upset about because you, you put everything you had into the game.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Most important, had to have been very freeing too, to kind of have that ego death. Let it go. Love and appreciate it. Because we all know, like, I know that you being 220, 30 pounds with high jump records or four by one, you would have never imagined somebody coming to you and say, hey, you're going to gain £100, you're going to be an Outland trophy winner, you're going to be an All American. You're going to be the number two overall pick in the NFL and be an offensive lineman and play for eight, nine years in the NFL. You'd be like, yo, you're fucking crazy being a farm boy from small town Iowa. So it is, it's like you, you, you've done a lot of badass shit that absolutely everybody would trade places for. And it's really cool that you've learned. You've had this process of learning and very much lows and now you're getting new experience, highs Again and love yourself and be a family man and do all these things and start a. A foundation that you've started and changing people's lives. So I. Dude, I appreciate you for sharing all this. This. I'm sure it gets still at some point, no matter how much you talk about it. I'm sure there's some. Still some discomfort at times, like having to pull from old memories that you probably feel shame and embarrassment from. So, dude, thank you for sharing all this, sincerely.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. It's. Like I said, it's been. It's great for me. It's. Right. This process helped me enjoy, like you said, other things in life. Right. My. I'm one of eight guys in the ring of honor in Kinnick Stadium at the University of Iowa, right?

[C]

Yeah, Bro, your name is up in the stadium.

[A]

Right? And that, like something I am so proud of. And I went post medicine to where I didn't really. I was still. Right. Embarrassed or whatever it was. Right. There's all these other factors and I'm like, that's one instance where I'm like. I remember standing there that day they unveiled it. I'm like, holy. I'm one of eight dudes in the history of Iowa football that has their name on the stadium. Like, I did some really big time stuff, right? It doesn't. That's not who I am just because my name's there. But to be able to really enjoy that stuff and. And we all did it right as our careers went on. Your next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing. And now stand back and truly enjoy the process of what you did and what you accomplished from it. It's. It's a. It's a very amazing deal.

[B]

Yeah. I got one more question for you. I was so hung up on your. Your first DMT trip and you're like going to the light and you see God and you're like, I saw God the way I see God. How clear was this trip for you? It was like we're all sitting here right now talking.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Look. What does God look like?

[A]

There's two things I don't get into. Politics and religion. No. But for me, right. It was the typical. What I learned in. In CCD class when I was.

[B]

Beard. White hair.

[A]

Beard. Long white hair, the white robe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Was he a heavier set guy? Medium build? What were we looking at?

[A]

Medium build, white guy, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My God's white, right?

[B]

Yeah, Fair enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All good.

[A]

We're not judging that, but yeah, was like very crystal clear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so yeah, some of those things. And that's part of this, too. We can laugh about it now, but the people that have gone through, we talk about these things, you see, and you're like, they get it. Or if you've experienced things like that, you're like, holy cow. Right? Like, talking about seeing the light and doing these different things, the death, you're like, you know, I'm very clear what it's going to be like when I do die. Like, that came out of that, too. Like that peaceful. It's like, oh, this is. This is not bad, right? It's not a scary thing. Yeah. You know, some of the stuff that happened in there, but it's. Yeah, it's. It was crystal clear.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He's like, I saw. My God, he had a 30 rack sitting next to me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tuxedo T shirt on.

[A]

Mullet pull up on a Harley tuxedo T shirt.

[B]

That's got to be such a crazy feeling in your head to be like, yo, this is. This is the guy everyone's talking about all the time. This is him.

[C]

You know, I was gonna say the tuxedo T shirt just cut in half, too.

[B]

Yeah, he got his belly out a little cropped on up. Me too.

[C]

Oh, squat wrecks.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's. Your story is incredible, man. Well, all the things Will said, I. I would love to double down on that, but, like, thank you for sharing your story with us. It's awesome. And I hope that anybody who hears this that's going through something, they reach out, because that's the. The mental health side is so important. So thank you.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's what, you know, that's. I want to continue. We have, you know, websites set up, you know, and like. Like any foundation, right? Like, the. You know, people feel inclined to. To donate. There's a donate page on there. Because this. We can help send guys for treatment, right? Because unlike what most people think, not all professional athletes have money or save their money or had careers. Like, we did that. We put stuff away, you know, so we're raising money to help with the research and, you know, help send guys that need help that are in financial need. It's not just football guys, right? There's UFC guys. We got hockey guys. We got tons of guys. So that's a big part of this is also. But that's all on our website and just a resource of things you can do and people to reach out to.

[B]

What's the average cost to take one person down?

[A]

There's a couple of different facilities, but, you know, anywhere from $6,000 to 10 plus. But the.

[B]

The.

[A]

The place that the majority of that I've gone to is just over $6,000, you know, to get there. The treatment, it's the doctors, it's the pre and post therapy, integration, reintegration. So not, you know, not cheap. But I also came out of it and, like, dude, I would have paid $60,000. Right? It's easy for me to say, but I also think it's such a profound thing that it's like, holy cow, let's figure out how to make this happen. And that's what Vets has done. You know, they. They give grants. You know, we want to do that. If we start raising enough money, we want to give grants to guys that are in need, that can't. Can't financially do it and give them part of a grant.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so, you know, the other thing I would love to, you know, give a small plug to is this experience. It's easy for me to talk about it, and you listen to me like, okay, but there's a new documentary that actually just came out on Netflix that Marcus and Amber Capone were a part of with their organization. It's called In Waves and War, and it's very, very good. I've seen it multiple times, just got released. It's on Netflix. And it gives a good idea of this process. More scientific stuff on the medicine, but some great storytelling like mine that you'll be like, oh, I heard that from Robert. Right. If you go watch it. Because it's. It's very similar, and it's just bringing awareness to guys. That's awesome.

[C]

We talk about, you know, things that we can laugh about. We do have a final question. It's brought to us by Bud Light. It is.

[B]

It is comical.

[C]

You know, how people would do anything for a nice cold bucket. Right.

[A]

I've heard that.

[C]

What is something in your life that Robert Gallery would do anything for? And you see in parentheses, Taylor. It's a coin thing. You can't say family.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Can't say family.

[A]

I think for me, it would be being able to consistently live in the moment, to be in the moment. Like, I'm very much more in the moment now than I was, but I've had that feeling of being in the moment for days on end. Right. Post medicine work, there's times where I, you know, I'm on my routine to go into guys like us, we push and push and push, right? You got to be great. Got to do this, like, you guys started this. Like, we got to take it to the next level. You're doing this. But to go. To be able to be in the moment, sit in a gym, watch my daughters play basketball, and just be in the moment watching them, not worrying about, like, oh, they screwed this up. Right? It's that mentality of high level athletes. Right? I'm guessing you guys are the same. Or as your kids get older and you just push and push. Oh, you should have done that, that. But there's been instances where I've been in the mo. I've been on a snowmobile in the middle of the mountains, and I can see every single snowflake that's coming towards me. I'm like, oh, I am in this moment right now. Right? There's me, the snowmobile. I'm out. It is nuking snow, and there's nothing else. And I can see every single snowflake flying at me. So I'm. So it's like a meditative state. And I've been in a gym where I just. I'm in pure enjoyment of watching my daughter do something she likes not being like, oh, she should have done this, or, why didn't she do this?

[B]

Or, Right.

[A]

She didn't eat enough protein this last week, so that's why she's tired. Right? This thing, that, that high level, I'm guessing you guys are the same. It's like, go, go, go. But when you've seen that calmness. So I would like to say to be in the moment all the time, the rest of my life, just be in the moment with whatever's going on, whether that's good or bad. Like, the past doesn't matter, the future doesn't matter. Like, sitting here talking with you guys, I just be. Which it is. It's great. Right? Like, that's why it's easy. And you can talk about it because it's like you're. You're completely in the moment. I'm not worried about anything other than, right. The great stories and about how, you know, most people listen to this will be Hawkeye fans and not, you know, Nebraska or Michigan fans, you know, after this. So.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That is true.

[C]

That is true.

[B]

It always comes back to the Big Ten. It always comes back.

[C]

He asked me before we came on the bus, too. He's like, I got a gift for your daughters. Would you want it now, before, or would you want me give it to you on the podcast? I'm just thinking like, oh, that's a solid dad giving another dad a gift for his girls or something like that. I was like, we can wait till the bus. And now that he pulled it out, I'm like, ah, he got me.

[B]

I mean, that's a solid gift.

[C]

Yeah, it's a solid gift. Very heady play by you.

[B]

You know, that was given to you by Robert Gallery, a guy whose name's on the stadium. Yeah, right, Right.

[A]

And I know the coach very well. Like, my wife's still very close, so, you know, maybe there's some scholarships in the future. True. I, I. But I know how you said you wouldn't send them there no matter what, but I'm also thinking, I mean, they look good in the black and gold, right?

[B]

Black and gold.

[A]

Our kids can team up, Right. I think yours are a little younger.

[C]

Than mine, but I've already started incorporating like we had on our for the Dads podcast. We curated this story, this AI story of good guys and bad guys, and the good guys are Huskers, and the bad guys are Hawkeyes. So trying to indoc. Indoctrinate them into thinking it's Oscar football, and I was the bad guys.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we do play each other in a few weeks, so we might need to figure out offline here how to get back to that game. And then we can posture up on the opposite sidelines.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Duel it out. I don't know. We might have to try and make that happen.

[C]

Yeah, we'll definitely have to have fun some more fun. Because I do have fun with George each year. I used to have fun with when I. He was a teammate of mine, Brandon Sheriff. We'd have fun with it every year, too.

[A]

But we'll.

[C]

We'll come. We can come up.

[B]

He was a stud. He went the other Allen Trophy as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he's a stud tackle that went.

[C]

To guard, and he was a monster, bro. Like, hitting him thick and rich was not fun.

[A]

Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's a good dude, too. That's. That's the cool part. Like, you guys, right? We played with all these people and different people, but, like, they're just good, dude. They're dudes, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

At the end of the day, we're all sitting here BSing, right? A dude's a dude, right? They were savages, right? Like, some guys that were. You know, I grew up watching Kyle Turley had a right. Like, I'm sure you had somebody, but it was. I want to be Kyle Turley. Got a jersey made from, you know, with my name on the back, but his number and the Saints. Like, I want what do you think the hair came from, right? Like, yeah, dude. Ripping helmet off. Like, oh, that's. That's the type player.

[B]

That's the guy you want to be.

[A]

That's who I want to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we all get together. I met him. Like, dude, you were my hero. Like, you know, that's awesome. Pretty cool.

[C]

Yeah, dude. Thank you, bro.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Big hugs, tiny kisses, passes, podcast around, leave comments, and we will see you next week.

[B]

Week. Next week.

[A]

This is an I heart podcast.