Call It Different Stages

Summary

Call It What It Is: Episode Summary - "Different Stages"

Released on March 4, 2025, "Call It What It Is" is a heartfelt episode hosted by Jessica Capshaw and Camilla Luddington of iHeartPodcasts. In this episode, the hosts delve deep into the often-overlooked topic of friendship breakups, exploring its emotional impact, societal perceptions, and personal experiences.

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1. Introduction to Friendship Breakups

The episode opens with Jessica and Camilla addressing a highly requested topic from their audience: friendship breakups. Jessica remarks on the significance of discussing this subject, emphasizing the trust listeners place in the podcast.

Jessica Capshaw [03:17]: "We're talking about friendship breakups. A popular demand."

2. The Pain and Prevalence of Friendship Dissolutions

Jessica introduces intriguing statistics highlighting the fragility of long-term friendships. Referencing a Forbes article, she shares that up to 70% of close friendships dissolve after seven years, a concept she likens to the "seven-year itch" often associated with romantic relationships.

Jessica Capshaw [04:49]: "According to a Forbes article, the research shows that up to 70% of close friendships... dissolve after seven years."

Camilla echoes her shock at these numbers, recognizing the commonality and emotional weight of such dissolutions.

Camilla Luddington [04:29]: "We hear about the seven year itch, right... seven years for a friendship."

3. Personal Experiences with Friendship Breakups

Both hosts share personal anecdotes to illustrate the complexities of ending friendships. Camilla recounts a significant friendship that ended due to her friend's relationship with a problematic partner, highlighting the challenges of maintaining bonds when external relationships interfere.

Camilla Luddington [10:24]: "I had a friend who ended after she started dating someone who... was a little biffy like Biff from Back to the Future."

Jessica discusses her experiences where friendship endings were triggered by specific events rather than gradual drifting, emphasizing the difficulty in processing sudden breaks.

Jessica Capshaw [22:00]: "The only friendship breakups that I have in my life are sort of specific to there having been an event that caused the breakup."

4. Cultural Rituals and the Lack Thereof

Referencing an article from Wondermind by Selena Gomez, Camilla points out the absence of societal rituals surrounding friendship breakups compared to romantic ones. This lack of closure rituals makes it harder for individuals to process and move on from lost friendships.

Camilla Luddington [26:15]: "...friendship breakups are incredibly common and normal and inevitable. But we often personalize it and see it as a failure because it is so unexpected and because it's so uncommonly spoken about."

5. The Emotional Toll and Identity Crisis

Jessica and Camilla explore the profound emotional impact of losing a close friend, likening it to an identity crisis. The loss of a friend who knows one intimately can leave a lasting void, questioning one's self-worth and social standing.

Camilla Luddington [21:08]: "It might be hard for her because I didn't want to be around him... You can't be honest with someone who you are intimate with."

6. Navigating Mutual Friendships and Boundaries

The discussion shifts to the complications that arise when mutual friends are involved in a breakup. Jessica advises setting clear boundaries and seeking support outside the mutual circle to avoid further emotional turmoil.

Camilla Luddington [31:09]: "Sometimes you need to put boundaries and be like, listen, I need to... be Switzerland for just a little bit."

7. Rebuilding and Reconnecting

Both hosts emphasize the possibility of rebuilding friendships after breakups. Jessica shares a positive experience of rekindling a friendship with a college friend, underscoring the potential for healing and renewal.

Jessica Capshaw [33:54]: "I have had rocky roads with some friends, and when it's genuinely a deep relationship, I have found my way back."

8. Coping with Jealousy and New Friendships

The conversation addresses feelings of jealousy when seeing ex-friends form new bonds. Camilla suggests practical steps like muting social media accounts to mitigate these emotions and focus on personal well-being.

Camilla Luddington [57:08]: "You can mute these accounts... There's a mute button."

9. Advice for Maintaining Long-Distance Friendships

Responding to listener questions, Jessica and Camilla offer strategies for sustaining friendships despite physical distance. They advocate for consistent, albeit brief, communication through calls and messages to keep the connection alive.

Jessica Capshaw [38:25]: "Don't let distance ever derail you. I talk to my friends on the phone regularly."

10. Embracing New Friendships and Moving Forward

The hosts encourage listeners to remain open to forming new friendships, even after experiencing breakups. They highlight the resilience of the human spirit and the capacity to find meaningful connections at any stage of life.

Camilla Luddington [59:46]: "You can always find great friendships, and that makes you appreciate the people that stay in your world even more."

11. Conclusion: The Importance of Friendship as Chosen Family

Jessica wraps up the episode by reaffirming the invaluable role of friendships in one's life, likening them to chosen family. She extends a warm invitation to listeners feeling lonely or in between friends, assuring them of ongoing support through the podcast community.

Jessica Capshaw [60:35]: "Friendships are so important. You are our friend."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jessica Capshaw [07:14]: "Plus, in order for you to be in a real relationship... you share your deepest, darkest secrets."

• Camilla Luddington [16:14]: "She didn't say that, but that's sort of the vibe."

• Jessica Capshaw [20:50]: "I find it so much easier to take accountability... it's less successful to look at the other person and be like, you need to do this."

• Camilla Luddington [25:15]: "I think friendships are expected to grow with you, and when they don't, it's shocking."

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Key Takeaways

1. Friendship Breakups are Common and Painful: A significant percentage of long-term friendships dissolve, often due to life changes and evolving personal circumstances.

2. Lack of Societal Rituals: Unlike romantic breakups, friendship endings lack societal rituals, making the grieving process more isolating.

3. Emotional Impact Resembles an Identity Crisis: Losing a close friend can lead to a profound sense of loss and self-questioning.

4. Navigating Mutual Friendships Requires Clear Boundaries: Engaging with mutual friends post-breakup necessitates setting boundaries to prevent additional emotional strain.

5. Rebuilding Friendships is Possible: With time and effort, it's possible to reconnect and mend broken friendships.

6. Maintaining Long-Distance Friendships is Feasible: Consistent communication, even minimal, can sustain friendships across distances.

7. Embracing New Connections: Remaining open to new friendships helps in healing and forming meaningful bonds after a breakup.

8. Friendships as Chosen Family: Cherishing friendships as an integral part of one’s support system enhances overall well-being.

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Jessica Capshaw and Camilla Luddington provide a compassionate exploration of friendship breakups, offering both empathy and practical advice to listeners navigating the complexities of ending and maintaining friendships. Their candid conversation serves as a valuable resource for anyone grappling with the emotional challenges of lost connections.

Transcript

[Jessica Capshaw]

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Today we're excited to partner with BMW to celebrate International Women's Day. Absolutely.

[Jessica Capshaw]

BMW is honoring the incredible strength and resilience of women who drive change every day. They are all about amplifying important conversations and ensuring every voice is heard.

[Unknown]

We've been fortunate to work alongside amazing, dynamic women and are committed to paying it forward.

[Jessica Capshaw]

This International Women's Day, BMW is celebrating female warriors. Women who break barriers, challenge limits and inspire us all.

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Call it what it is with Jessica.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Capshaw and Camille Ludington and iHeartRadio podcast. Well, hello, hello, hello, hello, Call it crew.

[Unknown]

And welcome to another episode of Call it what It Is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Holy moly.

[Unknown]

I know there's a little pause here.

[Jessica Capshaw]

We're talking about friendship breakups. A popular demand.

[Unknown]

I'm gonna call popular demand. Yeah, absolutely.

[Jessica Capshaw]

People want to talk about it. I actually saw it as a sign of real trust because this one is something that actually, you know how, like, all the teenagers these days, if you. If they offend you, at least mine. When they offend you. When they offend you. Yeah. They follow it up with, like, it's not that deep. And you're like, actually, you just made it deeper.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you was.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And also, it's up to me if it's deep. How about I. How would I let you know? But that's the segue into this is deep. Friendship breakups, I think, are one of the most painful things you can possibly go through.

[Unknown]

They are. So, Jess. Yeah. So this is. A lot of the caller crew have been writing us to talk with us. We've talked. We've kind of glossed over it a little bit before. This is our deep dive into it. And so I spent, you know, the past couple of days just to. We've been really researching it, even reading a lot of material on it and.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Kind of all over the place, like, for different. Different outlets with different perspectives. Because I think it's sort of. Although I gotta say, they all say the same thing.

[Unknown]

They do. But reading it, I was, like, shocked by some of the statistics and. And. And not shocked, but, you know, like, oh, I can relate to some things that they're saying in it. And before we get into our personal stories, I think we talk about what. Yeah. What people are saying out there in the world when they're writing about this.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Well, I mean, I think that the. The. The one that kind of took both of our breath away was that according to a Forbes article, the research shows that up to 70% of close friendships and 52% of our social networks. So multiple friends dissolve after seven years.

[Unknown]

That was really shocking to me. We hear about the seven year itch, right.

[Jessica Capshaw]

With relationships or partnership.

[Unknown]

Yeah, seven years to me, for a friendship. By the way, we're going on basically double high five to us. Because, like, I mean, before Jess and I had this conversation before she got on, and I was like, I. I need you to understand, like, you're never losing me. Like, even if you do a Capshaw ghosting, it's like I'll be there. Like a stalker. Like, you're gonna have to call.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I told you, it's not a ghost. This is a moonwalk. It's an elegance.

[Unknown]

It's not going to work on me.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, I'm not shaking you.

[Unknown]

I won't take any hint. And it's like you are stuck with me for life. I'm a lifer.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, I love it. I'll take it for life. But seven years, I think there's a reason for that.

[Unknown]

Why?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Because I think seven years is usually how long it takes you to do that. Like the next. You get to that next plateau, right? Like, you're in school and you're all doing the same thing, and you're in. You're in high school, even though it's not seven years. But it's, you know, let's say middle school to high school, then you have college and then get jobs afterwards. And it's like, that's another probably seven years. And then you meet your person and you go through that next shift, and then you're thinking about starting a family, and you have a whole nother set of, you know, needs, places you're going, people you're seeing, ways you want to socialize. I mean, I think it probably shifts every seven years.

[Unknown]

So you're talking about the timing of friendships, sort of dissolving times out with these big sort of life jumps that you end up doing.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I would. That's what I. That would be my guess.

[Unknown]

I think what's hard is that you expect friendships to grow with you and do the jumps with you, and finding out that they don't is really shocking. There's no friendship, like, especially when they feel like a sister's, you know, like, really deep. There's no. There's no ticking time clock on it, like, potentially a romantic relationship.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Plus, in order for you to be in real relationship, like the kind of friendships that we're talking about and that we see in movies and film and books, it is total surrender, right? Like, you. You really, truly, just like in romance, in a romantic relationship, you give your whole heart. You share your deepest, darkest secrets. They know you in a way that. That maybe no one else does. And there's such a vulnerability to that and such a. And because of that vulnerability, you think, well, it can. It actually literally can never end. Because there couldn't possibly be someone who knows all of this about me walking around in the world that doesn't still feel tethered to me, right? Like, if we're no longer friends, if we no longer have that accountability in the circumstances in which we're showing up for each other. And they know all this about me. Like, not like a. Not like, not like holding it over your head. Not like I'm. I'm not suggesting that, that that person is, you know, somehow leveraging anything against you. I think it's just the intimacy of it and then you don't have it anymore.

[Unknown]

Yes. Like you are being so vulnerable with that, with that kind of friend and you are sort of like handing them your secrets and then. But you ass that like they're going to hold them with you forever and then they're not in your world anymore and they're walking out in the world with like a piece of you is what it feels like.

[Jessica Capshaw]

That's exactly right. The trust is so huge.

[Unknown]

Yes. So I was also reading wondermind, which is Selena Gomez's amazing, incredible website. Wondermine did a whole article on this and one of the things they talked about that I thought was very interesting is, and I'm going to quote it, our culture doesn't have the same rituals or milestones at the end of a friendship like we do with significant others, like moving out with divorces. And so because of that we find it harder to have that disconnect. Like we basically, like, we find it harder to move on because there's usually like, you know, a breakup. It's like you move on. Yes. And so that leads to a longer period of grief, basically.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Have you ever had any friendship breakups? I mean, obviously you have, but I'll.

[Unknown]

Talk about one or handful.

[Jessica Capshaw]

More than a handful, to be honest.

[Unknown]

There's only one that really, really sticks out because I feel like the others sort of felt like a seven year. And then the other friendships that I've had have lasted. Right. I've been very lucky. Like my best friend since high school, I literally text her yesterday. My other best friend since high school, like we're still in contact. But one friendship I had in my twenties was a ba. Was a little over a seven year but. But felt like that like, felt like I handed all my secrets. That was my gonna be my ride or die. Right. Like that's the girl that I'm gonna, you know, see through all the phrase phases of my life and really, you know, we live together, we work together. And the truth is, is basically she ended up dating a guy that, you know, about a year into the relationship did something that was, you know, a little shady and. Or a lot shady, depending on who you talk to.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And he was an.

[Unknown]

Yes, he did something that was not good. Really not good.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And did she tell you about it or did you find out about it?

[Unknown]

I found out about it. I was able to find out about it through.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Did she know or were you the one that knew?

[Unknown]

A mutual friend of ours, part of our little girl group, found out about it and we had to sort of go to her and tell her that, hey, this thing happened.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Oh, that's actually. That's worse.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And so. And by the way, like, he was just not my vibe. Anyway, I would describe him. I've described him before as. He's a little. He was a little biffy from Back to the Future. If you don't know Biff. Yeah, you gotta research.

[Jessica Capshaw]

There are people. Like, I thought that there was only one Biff.

[Unknown]

There is only. No, some people give off a little bit of a Biff vibe and he was a little biffy.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I don't want to judge, but what person goes. Walks towards a biff? You only walk away.

[Unknown]

I mean, listen to each moonwalk.

[Jessica Capshaw]

You can flat out run.

[Unknown]

Listen, listen.

So.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Unknown]

I like in the Biff vibe. I don't know. He was not my style. He was not. He was not my. He didn't give me good vibes. And especially after something happens, I think as a girl, you know, like, if you're romantically involved with someone, you can like, move on. But the girl, I. I'm the kind of girlfriend that, like, I sit back and I'm. I'm just. I'm not going to lean all the way in. I'm going to make sure. Wait to make sure that you're, like, gonna have my girl. Right? Like, I'm not giving it all to you. It's gonna take me a really long time. I'm Sagittarius. It's gonna take me a long time.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. You need a minute.

[Unknown]

Yeah, more than a minute.

[Jessica Capshaw]

By the way, this is a good segue to really quickly. There was only one time in our friendship where we were at work and something had gone down and. And someone was kind of coming to have some words with me about something.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And I was kind of like that when you think you're in trouble and you get, like, anxious. And I was like, okay, no, no, I'm gonna take care of this. I'm gonna take care of this. And you were with me and I kind of looked go away because I got like, I gotta handle this. And you were like, let me, Adam. Let me, Adam.

[Unknown]

No, I was like, I was. I. I know exactly who you're talking about. And my feet were fully planted. I'm like, if you're gonna talk to her, like, if this is gonna go down, I'm also going to be stood right here just to be, you know, an HR witness to this, basically.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And then basically cracking your knuckles, just waiting, waiting. You were like, I got this.

[Unknown]

No, I was. I was like, unless you give me the sign, which you did, it was very obvious, like, I need you to scram. I was not scramming. There's no scramming. Listen, I'm gonna stay right there. So anyway, so this guy. And to be honest, they're still together.

[Jessica Capshaw]

They're, you know.

[Unknown]

I know. They. Listen.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Married.

[Unknown]

They are. They're married and they're married to Biff. Listen, maybe this. Maybe the Biff was a stage. Maybe his, you know, it's all turned around. It was giving me Biff vibes back then.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Unknown]

So me and her. And this is not just me being crazy, like, other mutual friends of hers confided in me, but one night, me and her guy, her boyfriend at the. Had gotten to an argument, a big argument. And it really killed it. It was just the friendship was sort.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Of done well, because she had to pick. I mean, a better question would be, did it feel like she had to pick after you guys got into the fight?

[Unknown]

I mean, I guess that's a question for her.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Right?

[Unknown]

I. I think what's hard from, like, the. My end of the situation. I think this happens all the time. If you have. If you're with. If your bestie is married or with someone that you're like, about you kind of in the guy or the girl. Right. Like, you inherit the person, and then it can. It can be sticky. And so I don't know if she felt like she had to choose. Maybe she did. And it's. And. And by the way, it's kind of insulting when you're like, this is like a two year, three year. We've been best friends for like a decade. Like, what are you doing? But again, I do think that, like, romantic relationships often win out over a friendship, which is also, like, sometimes jarring. But it's my experience, I wouldn't have made her pick. The truth is, is it would have been hard for her because I didn't want to be around him. So it's like the fourth of July barbecue is like, did I really want this person in my house? No. I thought he was rude. I thought he was kind of a jerk, you know?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. And you can't. When You. When you can't be honest with someone who you are intimate with and, like, again, has all your secrets, knows where all your bodies are.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Where all the bodies are buried. You. You really, I think, can't be friends in that same way, you know? I mean, like, you and I can be very honest with each other. Like.

[Unknown]

Yes. I'm gonna give an example. Oh, no, this is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Is it me being honest or you being honest?

[Unknown]

No, there's so many. This is how honest. But I love. I mean, this is one of the things I really treasure about us and. And hopefully you guys can hear it on this podcast. We. We like to be really, really honest with each other. It's something that we both shitty about each other and. And it comes from a place of, like, I have your back. I love you. You're like, you know everything. And after Jingle Ball, I was just doing a sleepover at Jess's house, and we woke up, and I was just gazing out the window, and I was like, God, it's so be. Look at this beautiful morning. Drinking my cup of coffee, honestly, minding my own business. And Jess was like, can I tell you something? Your hair's a little green. I was just looking at the birds. I was like, what? And you were like, you're blonde. Has a shade of garbage in it. I mean, you didn't say that, but that's. That's sort of the vibe, right? And I was like, oh, what do I do? And you're like, well, I've got this charcoal shampoo thing that I use, and we got to figure that out. And I so appreciate it, because some people would have looked at my garbagey hair and not said anything.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, a little Oscar.

[Unknown]

Little Oscar the Grouch hair and not said anything. And I would have just been sitting there like a. Drinking my coffee, being like, the birds are so cute. But I appreciate. I appreciate that kind of honesty.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I didn't point it out without having a solution. I mean, that's also something, right?

[Unknown]

I mean, I would still want you to point it out and just be like, we'll do some Googling. But, like. But you know what? Not every friendship is like that. Can you. Could you have told other friends of yours that their hair looks. I agree. And you gotta figure it out.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, no, not many. Not many. Not many. But you know what? That actually.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Because. So here's another thing that I was really thinking about when we were thinking about friendships. It's funny how we all socialize, but when we're. When we're in School, like elementary school, middle school, even college. We become. It seems like we have a natural drift towards friend groups, right? Like, there's multiple friends hanging out, and that can be great because there's options, right? People get to, like, go off in twos or threes, and you have a bigger group. But for me, I actually far prefer being a floater. I don't. I'm not really like a friendship group person. I have, like, I have people who are, you know, have been in my life for a really long time and that I just value above all. And when they say something or when they're honest with me about something, I. I know that I can absolutely count on that advice or that perspective or that offering in a way that's very, very, I think, just grounded and unique. And I think it's because I don't. I'm not part of a group. There's no triangulating. I don't. I think that friendship groups can be a little difficult because there's who's going off with who and who said what about who. And I think it can be a little bit more complicated. So I find that, you know, obviously we met in a bigger system of work, but then we really just. We have our friendship and it's so specific to. To the chemistry that happens between you and I. And so when we're together, like, we know what that's going to be.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I also, I mean, I have to say, yes, we were part. We were part of a bigger, you know, group. But it's also still work. It wasn't like a, you know, I wouldn't consider that like a big friend group. There's an element of family dynamic. There's. But the two of us were. For sure, you know, it was like, that was my close close. You were my close close. But I agree with you that I think it gets complicated. And it did for me in this situation. I just talked about when you have that friendship group, right. Because then you're being. Then it become the dynamics of everybody else gets involved. Right. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone's sort of like, well, she did say this about you. And then you're like, wait, what are you. And, yeah, hold your. And then you can't say anything because you can't say anything because that's. The friend told you, and now you can't say that.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, see, I don't like that. That's what I don't like. I don't like that. I think that that is. And it's not fun for me and I don't like it. And you know, it's funny, I actually. I don't think I've ever said this to you before. I get low key jealous, like if I'm with. If I'm with. Like if I'm with you. Not jealous in a destructive way. But, like, you and I do a lot of stuff where we'll go out into the world and like, we'll go to a conference or we'll go to a event or whatever, whatever, and there'll be lots of people. And I. I'm fine with that for a while. And then I'm like, okay, everybody else needs to leave.

[Unknown]

I'm the same way.

[Jessica Capshaw]

My social battery gets drained to zero. And I'm like, totally. I need everyone else to leave.

[Unknown]

Okay. But I'm okay. This is why we're actually a terrible combination. Because there's a time. There was a time when Jess and I were supposed to go do something together, and it was like a business situation, right? And we're sitting in this hotel room. I'm not gonna say where. Cause it'll out like the situation. And I was like, maybe we don't go. Maybe it's just we stay here and we go to dinner and that's sort of the business situation we do. So, yes, I. My social battery is not even. I don't know if it's ever on. So when your dies, I'm like, yes, it's dead. Thank God we're going home, Jess.

[Jessica Capshaw]

But those are. But that's the. That's the thing I think is so important about successful friendships, which would be the opposite of having to break up with someone. It's like you have little contracts, little agreements that you make with each other in friendship where you're like, okay, I can handle being out at this thing for. I think I'm good for, you know, a couple hours. And then I'm gonna look at you with, like, large eyeballs and be like.

[Unknown]

Yeah, well, that's what I also, that's what I do appreciate about someone like you in my life, is that it's not even eyeballs. It's like, we will just turn to each other. Like, I'm done.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, let's go.

[Unknown]

You know what I mean? There's not. It's like, I'm over it. There's another article too, that I want to talk about. It says friendship breakups are incredibly common and normal and inevitable. But we often personalize it and see it as a failure because it is so unexpected and because it's so uncommonly. Spoken about. And I think that's true. I think it does feel, like, extremely shocking when a friendship ends and then it's your. I. I think there's like, a sense of self that you're like, wait, what? Like, that person was part of me.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Do you know what I mean? Like, it's. It's an identity crisis, almost.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I was gonna say, because it also feels like a reflection on you because.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

If the relationship isn't successful, then it might be in part to you as well.

[Unknown]

Have you had that seven year. That's like. You think it's a ride or die and then it's ended.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Was it shocking to you, or did you. Were you okay to, like, let it go? It took me time to, like, be okay with it, and now I appreciate, like, what it was at the time, and I can reflect on it and be like, that was great. That's what we needed as a friends at the time. And now it's, you know, it's done. Like, I'm. I don't have any ill will about it, but it was a. It took a long time.

[Jessica Capshaw]

The only friendship breakups that I have in my life are sort of specific to there having been an event that caused the breakup. There's been less drift and events.

[Unknown]

Hard though. I almost. I almost feel like the drift is better. Of course it is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

It's far. But it's funny because I have reconnected. We've always stayed friends, but I reconnected with a college friend of mine. And the first time that we talked, after not talking for a long time, we talked. I truly. I think we actually spoke on the phone for three hours. I mean, there's something about people who knew. Who've known you for that long, they have all the story. They do just exactly like what I said. They have all the stories.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

She remembers things that I actually don't. This is not shocking, but, I mean, it's so much fun. But, yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes the breakup breakups have been in friendship. Breakups in my life have been particularly painful because there's been an event where someone behaved, you know, my. Myself included. There have been times where I did and said things that I was like, what? What? Who was that person?

[Unknown]

And.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And you. And you're. And it sucks. It really sucks. It sucks when you. When you're the one who's done the thing. It sucks when they've done the thing. I mean, it just. It just is so, so hard. And you kind of don't even know what to do with yourself anymore. Because all your flight patterns usually depend on that friendship. Right? Like you have this thing where you see them and you go here and maybe it's your favorite. Maybe whatever it is, it's like either the, the cafe or gym or the restaurant or the workplace, whatever it is. But like you. You don't usually stop intersecting and you have to reckon with this division that is. That feels so heavy. That's what I feel like I was. The worst part is that that like, the term heavy hearted resonates for me, right? Like my heart feels heavy when that kind of thing happens. I just. It's hard it to get out of it. That being said, you know, then you have kids and I imagine a lot of friendship breakups happen when you have kids because, yeah, all of a sudden they're the most important thing.

[Unknown]

It's true. It's true. I had. I. I want to know your opinion on this because I told Matt that we were doing this podcast last night and it got on this on the subject of. I think. But I might be wrong and maybe it's just how I feel. I think that in relationships, in romantic relationships, you give that person like a lot of chances, right? Like you're in a fight and it's. You get. But you know, in friendships, no matter how close you are, I think friends get less chances to like, get angry at each other in general.

[Jessica Capshaw]

What's your hypothesis? You think sex intersects interrupts?

[Unknown]

I don't know what my hypothesis. I guess my hypothesis is is that, like, you don't get as many road bumps in a friendship as you do in a relationship. Like, I feel like a relationship, you get your get out of jail free card a lot more than friendships. And so they're a little more seven year, like maybe likely to end abruptly. You're saying like, one thing happened, right? Like, I can't think of a relationship that I've had where, like, one thing happened and it was done. But I can think of friendships where, like, we never fought and now one thing happened and now it's kind of done. And I don't know why that is. And I don't even know if other people have that same opinion. I was just. It was a conversation that we had last night that I was like, that's kind of interesting.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. I think we expect more from our friendships.

[Unknown]

Isn't that crazy?

[Jessica Capshaw]

I think we have a higher standard.

[Unknown]

We do.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Is that weird to say?

[Unknown]

No, I don't think that's weird, but I think that's very Interesting, actually.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown]

I wonder why. So I read this article by Lily Danziger in L2 talking about friendship breakups, and she had gone through a friendship breakup. And then what she did is she threw together a quick survey and threw it out into the world thinking, like. Like, have you experienced this? And. And she said the first weekend after she sent this survey out on X125 women responded with stories of betrayal and heartbreak and dramatic fallouts and all the things that come with a friendship. And she was so blown away by not only the response so fast, but how emotional the responses were. One person wrote, there's an empty second half of the book where she and I should have been filling in the story together. And I think that that's a lot. That's a lot of how we feel. But also then she realized that almost 90% of respondents said that their friendship breakup was a big deal or a bigger deal than some or all of their past romantic breakups. And she says, she talks about how, like, in our culture, you know, we have this feeling of, like, socially, we see, like, you know, you break up and your girlfriends come over and you eat the ice cream, and you sort of know, like, you know, there's a little ritual around, like, getting over, like, that romantic breakup, and it just isn't there for a friend breakup up. And so it does feel really isolating, and you sort of don't know how to process it. There's not like that rallying. And, you know, you're gonna watch the romantic. You know, it's like, very hard to. To get over it because socially, we sort of, like, are like, wait, what the do I do now?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

How do I mourn this?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, I completely agree. There isn't that cultural rallying around someone who has broken up with a friend the way that there is when you've broken up with a romantic partner. I. I mean, not that we should, you know, have pain, be a competitive sport, but I do. I have found it far more painful to be broken up with as a friend than, like, the breaking up is hard because, you know, you have to do it, and who wants to hurt anyone? Yeah, all that. But when you get broken up with.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And it's really only happened once.

[Unknown]

It's painful.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, you know what? It actually happened another time. It happened a second time, and it was really wild because, you know, life is long. And I had a friend basically say, I don't be friends with you anymore. And. Okay. And then maybe two or three years later sent me an email that was like, you know what? I really thought about it, and I think I acted too rashly, and I really miss you. It was very kind. It was very sweet, but because they had broken up with me in a way that I really felt was borderline unkind.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I felt a little bit like, you know what? You put me in a timeout, and you, like, left me in my room and you forgot about me. You forgot to come and take me out of my timeout, and now I'm in my room, and I'm actually fine here.

[Unknown]

I've actually decorated it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, I've decorated it. I feel like I invited some friends over.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah. I've got new friends over here, and we've opened a bottle of wine in the corner. Yeah. You're cool?

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm cool. But I'll look forward to running into you.

[Unknown]

Yes. I have to say, the friend that I broke that. Well, I think it was kind of mutual, to be honest, that this friendship ended with a few years later. I did write her and say, like, hey, you know, like, if you ever want to meet for coffee. Because I was thinking in the moment. I was being nostalgic. In the moment is the truth. And I thought, like, maybe there's a world in which, like, it's never going to be the same, but, like, we can. We're both mommies now. Like, maybe they're. You know, we both had sons around the same age. Like, maybe there's a world in which there's a new something there that can work. And then the truth is, is that she canceled same day on the coffee. And I wasn't even mad at it. I was like, oh, you know what? It's not meant to be. And I just. I sort of needed. I. It confirmed something for me. And. And now that. That, like, feeling of, like, that question is, like, gone. Very much so. Like, it was like, okay, great. Well, there's a reason for this, isn't?

[Jessica Capshaw]

There you go.

[Unknown]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And now that feeling of, like, wanting to meet up is like. Like, gone, you know, like that. Any of that question. But anyway, all these things are very difficult. They're very painful. And apparently all of us have experienced this, and when we just don't talk about it because it's. It feels maybe embarrassing and awkward to be like, I lost a friend.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And in one of the articles I read, they said, like, make sure you don't go to your mutual friends. Like, don't lean on your mutual friends. Sure. Yes. But I kind of did that, and it Was not a good idea because you do end up hearing, like, I.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Know, but what are you supposed to process it in a vacuum? I mean, you can't.

[Unknown]

I mean, no, I think that, like, you. You process it, hopefully with friends outside of. Outside of it, but sometimes the hard thing is, is, like, your friends are all in it, and it gets complicated and messy, and maybe you need to put. Lay down boundaries and be like, listen, I need to, like, say this, but I, like, I need you to be Switzerland for just a little bit.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And I think as we mature, whatever age that means for someone. But I think that there's the accountability pieces. If I knew then what. I know now how. Yeah, actually, I'm. I feel very. I mean, I don't want to get cocky, but I think I've gotten so much better if I've done something or if I even think I've done something. I find it so much easier to take accountability, to go to the person and be like, yes. Oh, you know what? You said that you mentioned this thing, and it made me think that you think I've done something that actually I didn't do. I forgot to do that thing. And you think that, like, I'm so sorry. Someone said this the other day, and it made so much sense to me. So often we try to work each other as opposed to work the problem or work the challenge, and it's sort of on the heels of the. You can't control anybody. You can't make someone think something or do something. All you can control is how you think and what you do. And so really, when you're, you know, trying to figure something out together, you can't. It's less successful to look at the other person and be like, you need to do this, you need to do that. You need to think differently. But more like, this is a situation we've been given. Here are the challenges. What are we gonna do about it? What are your thoughts? What are my thoughts? How do we figure it out?

[Unknown]

No, I. I agree with that. I think. I actually think having kids makes me. Has made me realize that I can own and apologize more. Because, like, you're kind of horrified sometimes parenting. Or at least I am, where I'm like, damn, I really yelled. Like, I gotta say, like, that was a. I took it to a 10 and they were only at a 5, you know?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

Like, I'm the one that took it to the 10, and so I gotta say, so sorry.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Yeah. Because you're the role model, Damn it.

[Unknown]

Parenting is so humbling is the truth.

[Jessica Capshaw]

But we've talked about this before. I like a do over sometimes. Yes.

[Unknown]

And I think a friendship do over, like, is so important to be like. I mean, I've definitely called a friend and said, I'm so sorry. I'm so. I don't know why I said that. So, you know, and I. Those are the friendships that really go the distance. They do.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm so sorry I said your hair was green.

[Unknown]

No, I actually, by the way, was like, thinking about it this, like, can you e. You didn't text me the charcoal thing. I don't. I don't want you to be sorry about it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I need you to fix it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll get you. I'll get you after this.

[Unknown]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Unknown]

Their value propositions are products with a great fit, affordable prices, and inclusive range of sizes.

[Jessica Capshaw]

New customers can get bra and panty sets for as low as 19.95.

[Unknown]

Adormi offers playful lingerie in over 67 different sizes, so you're bound to find a style that's just so you. And they have affordable styles to fit any budget.

[Jessica Capshaw]

It Adore Me has inclusive size ranges with over 67 sizes from extra small to 4x. Adore Me was the first intimate apparel brand to offer its full range of styles across all sizes.

[Unknown]

And each month they drop a new seasonal collection. So there's always new styles to check out.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I personally get a little girly. I love a bow. I love a little lace. I love the way it fits and I always love knowing that I feel supported underneath my clothes.

[Unknown]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Unknown]

Hi, this.

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Oh, wow, a real person.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yep. I'm here to help with everything from selecting the perfect window treatments to.

[Unknown]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Unknown]

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I didn't realize you did that.

[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Unknown]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Unknown]

Hmm.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I just might have to do more. Whatever you need. How about you tell me what you had in mind?

[Unknown]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

All right, well, let's get into what the crew has written in.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Emily says my best friend lives hours away. What is your best advice for maintaining that friendship from afar? Hello. We have it. I have this friendship right now.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Don't let distance ever derail you. I don't feel that. I don't, I really don't. I don't, I don't feel that it does. I, I, I talk to my. Well, again, I mean, we're in a particular time in our lives, right? We are very busy, so we are, we are constantly, like, pinballing from thing to thing. So I don't have a ton of time for real FaceTime sit, sit down time with my friends again. I can, you know, grab dinners here and there, but I'm not a lady who lunches, and I don't have, I don't have time for that. And so I'm all on the phone. And you don't need to live near someone to be on the phone.

[Unknown]

I think that even. I think one thing that we have gotten really good at is sometimes it's like just that two minute call. It like it and it and it maintains that friendship or even sometimes I know that I don't have time to really even have a conversation, but I just need to get this one thing out, and I'll send her a voice memo. And so I just think those little. It's.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I.

[Unknown]

All those things add up. So instead of thinking I can't, you know, I don't have an hour to talk on the phone. It can be two minutes. It can just be like, hey, what's going on? How are you? And I think that it all adds up.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Yeah. And also the texting. I'm pretty hilarious.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Okay. Tara wrote in and said, my best friend stopped talking to me because I didn't buy her Taylor Swift tickets. How dare you? I did not feel guilty because the ticket demand price was insane. I don't think you should feel guilty, and I don't think she should have stopped talking to you because you didn't buy her Taylor Swift ticket.

[Unknown]

Also, I just think that, like, you, it's not like Tara had the one. The one link to the tickets. It is Ticketmaster.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You can log on at any time you want.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Maybe you're mad at her for not buying you tickets.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Shani said, how do I stop expecting new friendships to end bad after a past relationship breakup up? I think that taking time to really examine why a past relationship breakup happened and sit on it really helps you move forward into new friendships, and you kind of understand maybe where it imploded, and then you get to navigate new ones differently.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Phoebe, how do you know it is only you that is keeping the friendship alive and the other person is over it?

[Unknown]

Well, if they're doing a Jessica Capshaw little ghosting, whatever she wants to call it, it. It's over. I mean, you can tell if somebody's natural drift.

[Jessica Capshaw]

It's not a ghost.

[Unknown]

It's the. If a natural drift is happening. No, I think that, like, being drifted, it's. You're. If you're being drifted, then you know, if someone's not putting in the same.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Energy, that is also the Mel Robbins. I mean, that's the thing. If people.

[Unknown]

Well, and you let them. And then you figure people want to.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Do it, they're gonna do it, Right?

[Unknown]

They are.

[Jessica Capshaw]

When people want to, they do. When they don't want to, they don't. So if someone's not doing what you would like for them to be doing or not keeping up their end of the friendship, then that's your information. I had this thing. Oh, my gosh. Sidebar. I remember in my early 20s, dating. I dated this guy who was like, a super player player. And I said to. Well, he ended up doing what he was meant to be doing, and he was a player. And he cheated. And I went to my mom and I was like, oh, my God, he cheated. And she's like, like. And I said, but I don't understand why. Because I told him. Like, I told him if he was seeing other people, he could totally tell me about it. And she was like, just because you give someone permission to be honest with you doesn't mean that they will. Like, you're not in control is basically what I gleaned from that interest.

[Unknown]

I love. That's really good. I love that.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Right?

[Unknown]

Yes. Because you. You feel like the permission is an invite that will be absolutely accepted because you've given it and it's not true.

[Jessica Capshaw]

But again, that would be assuming that you were in control, and nope, you're not. So I think that. I think that if you get a feeling that you're the only one keeping a friendship alive, the friendships, you have your answer and the other person is over it.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And it's not alive, is it?

[Jessica Capshaw]

No. She's gone. She's gone. It's not funny. I'm just saying.

[Unknown]

I know, but it just sounded like a funeral.

[Jessica Capshaw]

A little, but it is.

[Unknown]

It's a friendship funeral. Okay, Lottie, I cut off. Cut off a toxic friend a year ago. I see her around a lot and can't move on. What do I do? Well, I don't understand why you can't move on if she was toxic and you cut her off. I have questions about that.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Because sometimes we can't quit these toxic people. There would be no television series. There would be no movies.

[Unknown]

I know. If we.

[Jessica Capshaw]

If we assumed the toxic people were easy to quit. I mean, do you remember, so that series that I was in the first season of, Tell Me Lies?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

All toxic relationships.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but, I mean, I watch a lot of TV series, but I don't want to be in them. I love squid games, so I'd rather not play.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Did I. I forgot to tell you this. I was a captive audience when I was getting my nails done the other day, and they had the Desperate. Not Desperate Housewives, the regular. The. The You. What's the show you always want me to watch?

[Unknown]

Watch?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Real Housewives.

[Jessica Capshaw]

The one with Denise Richards and Kyle.

[Unknown]

Beverly Hills. Kyle Richards? Yeah. Holy. I know.

[Jessica Capshaw]

They're so mean.

[Unknown]

I know. They're awful.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, they're so mean to each other.

[Unknown]

I know. It's terrible. In fact, to be honest, I gotta tell you, we're sidebarring this. But you know what? Those shows are about friendship. I had to stop watching because I got so invested, and I want to throw stuff at my tv. Wait, who was. Who was on it? Wait, who was on this?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Well, honestly, you couldn't make this up. So I'm getting my nails done with Yesi, and Yesi and I are talking about this, that, and the other, and she's like, I'm gonna put on the Housewives.

[Unknown]

Who the Is Yesi? You just said. Yes, he like, oh, I know who that is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes, he does my nails.

[Unknown]

I know, but, like, you gotta. Sometimes you gotta, like, introduce the person.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay, fine, Yesi.

[Unknown]

And your nail is your nail.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay, that's my nails.

[Unknown]

Because I don't know who this is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Are we good?

[Unknown]

You were good. We can move on. We can move on.

[Jessica Capshaw]

So she has a projector and she puts shows up on the wall while you're getting your nails done.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God. Like a movie theater.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, kind of like that. Like, but also, like, during the holidays, we watched Elf. You know, we just. We watch different.

[Unknown]

She's cute, but. Yeah. Tell me.

[Jessica Capshaw]

She's the best. I love you, Yesi. So she puts on Housewives. And I said, I don't. I don't know anything about this one. I mean, I don't know anything about the show. Which one is it? Like, who are the characters? And she said, oh, this is the one with. With she named Mom. She said, denise Richards. I said, oh, my gosh. Do you want to know a fun fact? And she said what? I said, denise Richards was one of my really, really, really good friends. A whole lifetime ago. I'd done this movie called Valentine, which was a horror movie. It was.

[Unknown]

Didn't you go to the Playboy Mansion with her?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes, I did. We were dressed up as SWAT team members.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I just. Yeah, get a visual on that, because I'm sure.

[Unknown]

I'm serious.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Oh, yeah, it's amazing. By the way, try and be Denise Richards plus one Playboy.

[Unknown]

No.

[Jessica Capshaw]

In matching costumes. No confidence that I had that I shouldn't have had.

[Unknown]

No, but you went out. You had the blonde. Her. Brunette. No, I think it works. I think it works.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I don't know if it worked, but anyways, so I say, I used to be very good friends with Denise Richards. And I go off on this whole thing because I'm not watching any of the show, and she's got the volume turned down. And I said, oh, my gosh. Denise Richards.

[Unknown]

I.

[Jessica Capshaw]

We had so much fun. You know, she's from Illinois. I'm from Missouri. She. We're like two Midwestern girls just out there in Los Angeles, and we had so much fun, and I just adored her, and she was so, so, so nice. And I just like heart of gold. And then she met Charlie Sheen, and she ended up getting married to Charlie Sheen. And a little natural drift. A natural drift. She got married, and there she was, you know, drifting, drifted. And no sooner had I said that Denise Richards was the kindest, most lovely person ever, then she turned up the volume, and Denise Richards was talking to some other lady with long blonde hair and was like, don't talk about my kids, you. And I was like.

[Unknown]

Can I tell you? I'm gonna be honest. It could be. There's a number of blondies, but I love Denise Richardson on that show. And if she was saying it, I'm on. I'm in her corner. She was bullied relentlessly for a season. It was horrible to watch. Let's get her on. You know what? We're gonna get her on the podcast. Absolutely.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I mean, I. I'm telling you again, I am telling you, sweetest, kindest.

[Unknown]

She is. And by the way, I loved her.

[Jessica Capshaw]

The gloves were off, and of course, I Now my ears are perked up, so I'm listening to everything that they're saying, and I'm learning things because I haven't kept up on her life, but I'm now learning, oh, this woman was so mean. That was being. That was being so mean to her. And she was talking about how, like, which one of, like, who makes more on only fans.

[Unknown]

You're a couple seasons behind, but they're.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Sitting there and she's, like, drinking tea.

[Unknown]

Yeah, she's real mean. Oh, listen, I know it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

That's not good friendship. Just as long as we're on the friendship.

[Unknown]

Well, we talked about a toxic friend. I mean, these were the Housewives is a whole toxic friendships.

[Jessica Capshaw]

We're gonna have them on.

[Unknown]

We'll talk about. They were mean meanies. Okay.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Wow.

[Unknown]

We went really? We. You know what? I'm okay with the housewives sidebar. Okay. Camilla. A friend got mad at me because I didn't invite her boyfriend to my birthday party. I never met him.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Oh, I think you can give your friend a plus one for their boyfriend.

[Unknown]

If everyone else has one. It depends how intimate it is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Just need to repair.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Get that friend back. Don't let that one go.

[Unknown]

Foreign.

Let's call it what it is. Owning a cute bra and panty. Set that fits just right and can be worn all day. Makes it easier for you to feel sexy and confident.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Adore Me is an intimate apparel brand that was the first of its kind to offer a full range of styles and sizes for all body types.

[Unknown]

Their value propositions are products with a great fit, affordable prices and inclusive range of sizes.

[Jessica Capshaw]

New customers can get bra and panty sets for as low as 19.95.

[Unknown]

Adormi offers playful lingerie in over 67 different sizes, so you're bound to find a style that's just so you and they have affordable styles to fit any budget.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Adore Me has inclusive size ranges with over 67 sizes from extra small to 4x. Adore Me was the first intimate apparel brand to offer its full range of styles across all sizes and each month.

[Unknown]

They drop a new seasonal collection so there's always new styles to check out.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I personally me get a little girly. I love a bow, I love a little lace, I love the way it fits and I always love knowing that I feel supported underneath my clothes.

[Unknown]

Shop now at adore me.com todos osdatos.

[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Unknown]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay. Jenny says how to deal with someone having a new favorite person. Oh, like competitive friendships.

[Unknown]

That's hard. Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I saw you on Instagram with some other friends.

[Unknown]

I know. And you. I know that you think that I don't have any, but to be honest, I had to. I've had to listen to you and Sasha. You will preface Sasha as your best friend in the entire world, more than any other friend ever.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm just saying, in all fairness, I did not post a picture, like, in the center of them wearing matching T shirts. Shirts and like, you know, out to the world. I'm just saying, if you were here.

[Unknown]

You'D have a T shirt. This is a. Let them. If they have a favorite new friend.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

What are you gonna do? You can't lasso them in. I mean, it's hard, but you can be productive about and proactive about making sure that you carve out time and invite them to do things with you so that you feel like the friendship is still getting, you know, nurtured.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Or you can be a. In competitive friendship mode and just do everything better than that other friend, which.

[Unknown]

Is also another angle that we support over here on call. What it is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

We're. We're gonna call it what it is. Do what you need to do.

[Unknown]

If it's War of the Roses, it's War of the Roses. It's fine.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Exactly. Right. Marnie wrote in and said, my family is friends with my ex best friend's family. Our friendship did not end great. Should I be upset with my family for still remaining friends? Friends?

[Unknown]

Why are they still friends with the family?

[Jessica Capshaw]

It could be like, one of those family things where you're literally like your friends or your families are friends, and then you become friends, and then you kind of can't unto.

[Unknown]

Ah. You kind of untangle. It's an untangle. Well, I would try telling your family that it's. You feel like there's a loyalty situation.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Or you let them and you're just not. And then you let me. You're just not there when they're all together.

[Unknown]

It might come across, though, as. As being okay with the behavior, the friend. If the friend was not a great friend, that you're sort of, like, okay with it. It's tricky.

[Jessica Capshaw]

We don't know we need more information.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin, can you recover from a friend breakup? Is that trust lost forever?

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm here to say. No. I really. I have. I have had some rocky roads with some friends, and then when it has. Is when it's like, when it's genuinely a deep relationship that you care a lot about. I have found my way back.

[Unknown]

It hasn't changed it, though, for you.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No.

[Unknown]

You can honestly find yourself, like, back without. Oh, that's good. I love that. Yeah, that's really good. I love that. See, there you go. It can happen.

[Jessica Capshaw]

There you go.

[Unknown]

Ella, is there a way to stop feeling jealous when you see your ex friend with their new friends? Yeah. You don't need to see their. I'm assuming you're seeing this on social media. You mute these accounts and you don't see it. Are you out in the world? I mean, that just what happens with. You want your friend. Ex friends to have other friends. It's still important for them, of course. But if you're seeing this on social, there's a mute button.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I like mute. It's a really very useful tool. Tracy wrote in and said she gossiped to my crush about me. I can't get over this.

[Unknown]

That feels like sabotage.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Betrayal.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's a betrayal. You can't come back from it either.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Next.

[Unknown]

Charlotte. My big friend group had a falling out, and I wasn't involved. Oh, this is a good question. Now most of the group are not speaking, and I am feeling alone. I think then you have to. This sort of actually did happen with the. With the friend group. This imploded. Me, my friend, not being friends anymore imploded. Our friendship group. And there was a girl that. That is. I've known forever, since high school. I love her. And she was sort of in the middle of it, and she just has learned to have individual relationships with all of us. They are separate to each other, even though we're not all friends anymore. So that's sort of what you have to end up having. You got to start doing individual friend dates.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Big friend groups. I was just listening to her friend talk about how her daughter's in a 19. What?

[Unknown]

No.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Friend group. And I was like, that's a lot.

[Unknown]

That's not a friend group. That's a sorority.

[Jessica Capshaw]

That's a school of fish. That's like. That's too many. Like, one. You know, like one that's.

[Unknown]

I don't even know how deep that is. That's not very deep.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Well, it's also just, like, when something goes Wrong. What are you supposed to do?

[Unknown]

I don't know.

[Jessica Capshaw]

18 people mad at you that I don't think you're gonna handle that. No.

[Unknown]

So stressful.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, it's not. Okay. Okay. Tatum. I had a friend. I had a friend who fought with me on my birthday because she hates my other friend and I don't know what to do. Yeah, because you're in between. You're in the tween.

[Unknown]

I think what you do is you don't bring those two around each other. Can't be in the same room.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Or I, I have friends. I, I actually really have had friends that just rub each other the wrong way.

[Unknown]

What happens when you all get them together? Do they play nice?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, but again, well, I'm the speaking given that we just talked about this. I am the opposite of a 19 friend, 19 girl friend group. I have like, I have my close friends and they're all from different parts of my life and absolutely, we could all sit at a table and it would be lovely. I mean, I've had, you know, you and Alicia and I have sat down and I mean, like, you know, you, it. And, and there's almost instant chemistry because you share someone beloved. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I think the friendship circle gets way. The, the inner, inner. The inner, inner, inner. Knows every part of you. Gets so small. I mean, I can count on one hand there's probably like three girls that really know all the things, including you. And I think that it works just fine. Caitlyn says, is it appropriate to send your friend a happy birthday message if you no longer talk? Talk?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes.

[Unknown]

You think so?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Always.

[Unknown]

Even if it was kind of a rocky like little.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I think, I think there's dislike the person like they did something truly heinous. But if you just don't talk anymore, and you might have done the natural, the Jessica Capshaw natural drift, the jcnd jcndeed, then absolutely. You always, you will always be happy that you reached out to someone on their birthday. Do you see how my birthday love just comes out no matter what?

[Unknown]

I think I know, but here's the thing. I think it comes with a disclaimer. I think you only send the message if you're also okay with that friend potentially striking up like a, hey, do you want to grab coffee? Because if you're not, if you're just wanting to send the message to me, nice. But you're not actually interested in pursuing anything further, I think you don't because it can get sticky. What if the person's like, hey, oh my God, thank You. Well, you want to grab coffee sometime? You're like, no.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Oh, well, if you can't have you. Yeah, no, you're right.

[Unknown]

You gotta like it. Comes the disclaimer. You got to be open.

[Jessica Capshaw]

All right, you know what? This is taking me on a little walk down memory lane, all this friendship talk. And I have to say, just. I can't. I can't finish this topic without saying this. Friendships are so important, and I think that that's why some of this cuts so deep for so many people. And. And for a lot of people, I think that friends are chosen family.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And. I don't know. That was an unnaturally long pause I just took there.

[Unknown]

But no, I. I think I. I know. I think it's. I think it's so true. And I think that, like, I. I just want to tell the crew that I've had times when I've moved to cities, and I've literally had no friends. Friends, like, really, honestly, like, truly not known anybody. And it takes a minute.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Did you go to the movies?

[Unknown]

I went to the movies by myself. But I would also, like, sit at brunch by myself and watch, like, the girls are laughing over, like, their bottomless mimosas. And I would be, like, so sad, like, having their sex in the city moment. And I'm like, table for one. But you can always, at any point in your life, find a great, great friendship. And I think that's important to leave on, even if you have to do some friendship breakups. And now you're alone. And it's not a city move. It's that, you know, you will find people, and that makes you appreciate the people that stay in your world so much more.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. And you know what? Sometimes you do have to, you know, fresh first semester, freshman year, it. Where you just. You. You take what you can get.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Well, also, I mean, like, you gotta kiss a few froggies. Friendship style.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes. Yeah, the same thing. Even if you're doing that, you need to make sure that you don't, like, you don't give away the keys to the kingdom to someone who, you know, is not. You know, you should be. You should be selective in friendship. You should be.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Hanging out with people that really mean something to you and. And that are willing to be in, like, a real relationship with you. You.

[Unknown]

And it should be easy.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes. And my friendships just give me so much. Like, being friends with you gives me so much, and I'm so grateful for it.

[Unknown]

Yeah. But these things take time. And, you know, sometimes that person hates you.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Like, I don't give to get, but like, that would have been a beautiful moment for you to be like. Yeah, no, you too.

[Unknown]

I said ditto.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Oh, I didn't hear that. Sorry. Okay. Friends. Hey, listen, by the way, I'd also like to tell you that in that, well, while we're living in this day and age of Paris social relationships, I'm your friend. I'll be your friend. Let's be friends. I am so happy to have you with Camilla and I. And if you ever feel lonely or maybe you're in between friends or fill in the blank, you are our friend.

[Unknown]

Yeah. This is. This is why we call it the. The. Call it community. Our friendship circle.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. And I believe in you.

[Unknown]

You. Yes. I believe in you, too. All right.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I think it's time to call it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

The end of the episode.

[Unknown]

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[Camilla Luddington]

Void.

[Unknown]

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[Camilla Luddington]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Stock up sale is on now, which means you can save big on all your favorite essentials throughout the store. Stock up on participating items. Earn four times points to redeem for your discounts on groceries or gas. Now through March 25th. Saved by shopping in store or online for participating items from your favorite brands like Pampers, Dove, Band Aid, Playtex and Premier protein. Offer ends March 25th. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Unknown]

CBS, Monday, February 24th. Introducing the new daytime drama beyond the Gates. Welcome to Fairmont Crest Estates, where the wealthy and glamorous Dupre family rules the community with poise and sophistication. That is, until a cheating husband and his trophy wife start stirring up trouble. Find out what happens beyond these majestic gates and behind closed doors where scandal, romance, betrayal, passion, secrets and revenge await. CBS daytime is about to get soapier. The new daytime drama beyond the gates premieres CBS Monday, February 24, and streaming on Paramount.

Today, we're excited to partner with BMW to celebrate International Women's Day.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Absolutely. BMW is honoring the incredible strength and resilience of women who drive change every day. They are all about amplifying important conversations and ensuring every voice is heard.

[Unknown]

We've been fortunate to work alongside amazing, dynamic women and are committed to paying it forward.

[Jessica Capshaw]

This International Women's Day, BMW is celebrating female warriors, women who break barriers, challenge limits and inspire us all.

[Unknown]

Together, we're driving the world forward. BMW supports your journey. Visit BMW USA.com the ultimate driving machine.