Call it Mom Guilt

Summary

Podcast Summary: Call It Mom Guilt Episode: Call It Mom Guilt | Release Date: May 19, 2025 Host/Guests: Jessica Capshaw & Camilla Luddington | iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Call It Mom Guilt," hosts Jessica Capshaw and Camilla Luddington delve deep into the intricate emotions and challenges surrounding motherhood, particularly focusing on the pervasive feeling of "mom guilt." Drawing from personal experiences and listener contributions, the duo offers heartfelt insights and practical strategies to navigate the complexities of balancing career ambitions with the responsibilities of being a parent.

Jessica's Recent Experiences: Upfronts and New Beginnings [02:22 - 07:03]

Jessica begins by sharing her recent experience attending the Upfronts, a high-stakes event where networks and platforms unveil their fall lineups to advertisers and stakeholders. Describing the event as "swanky" and "well produced," Jessica recounts the pressure and excitement of securing a prime time slot for her new show. She humorously contrasts her glamorous appearance during the event with Camilla’s more relaxed style, stating, “I looked stunning… and I look like a naked mole rat,” [03:14] highlighting the contrasts in their personal and professional lives.

A memorable moment occurs when Jessica unexpectedly reunites with fellow cast members George and Chandra Wilson from Grey’s Anatomy, providing a sense of camaraderie and support in a high-pressure environment. “I sat with Chandra and Jim for a good amount of time,” [06:43] Jessica shares, emphasizing the importance of having familiar faces amidst new challenges.

Defining the "Working Mom" [09:07 - 10:22]

The conversation transitions to the concept of being a "working mom." Jessica challenges the traditional notion by asserting, “Working is inherent to the title of being a mom,” [09:10] broadening the definition to include both those who work outside the home and those who manage the household. She reflects on her evolution from viewing a working mom as someone employed elsewhere to recognizing that nurturing a home is itself a form of work.

Camilla adds, “It's a dirty little secret, when you work outside the house, sometimes it's actually like a break from your own life,” [10:06], highlighting the duality of managing professional responsibilities while maintaining a fulfilling home life.

Balancing Work and Motherhood: Strategies and Challenges [11:25 - 13:45]

Jessica discusses her approach to maintaining stability for her children while juggling her career. She emphasizes the importance of consistency and flexibility, ensuring her kids' schedules remain as constant as possible despite her fluctuating work hours. “The best thing was for the kids to have their schedule… stays constant and the same,” [11:48] she explains.

Camilla echoes the sentiment, stressing the necessity of community support and shared responsibilities. They both highlight how having a support system can alleviate the pressures of parenting while pursuing career goals.

Managing Mom Guilt: Practical Strategies [32:42 - 36:56]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to addressing mom guilt. Jessica and Camilla discuss strategies to mitigate these feelings:

1. Stop "Shoulding" Yourself:

   • “Stop shoulding on yourself. We have to accept we are doing the best we can,” [32:42] advises Camilla.
   • Jessica reinforces this by highlighting the unnecessary pressure mothers place on themselves.

2. Focus on Positives and Wins:

   • “Focus on your wins,” [33:38] encourages listeners to celebrate small victories.
   • Camilla adds humorously, “Are you kidding? Mommy deserves a medal,” [33:45], underlining the importance of recognizing everyday achievements.

3. Community and Empathy:

   • “Talk to other empathetic moms,” [33:38] suggests Jessica.
   • Both hosts emphasize the value of connecting with a supportive community to share experiences and offer mutual support.

4. Putting Things in Perspective:

   • “Put it all in perspective,” [33:54] encourages listeners to take a bird's eye view of their challenges, reducing the immediate emotional burden.

Jessica further explores the societal pressures placed on working mothers, stating, “They’re expected to prioritize motherhood above all else, yet are also pressured to excel in their careers,” [34:27]. She calls for compromise over the elusive concept of balance, acknowledging that it's impossible to excel in all areas simultaneously.

Listener Contributions: Real Stories and Support [40:42 - 50:31]

The hosts engage with listener stories, offering empathy and advice:

• Maria shares her decision to reclaim her career, to which Camilla responds, “Go do it,” [40:56], encouraging her courage.
• Leah, a nurse working night shifts, expresses feelings of guilt over missing out on daytime activities with her kids. Jessica offers heartfelt support, “Leah, you are a hero,” [41:10], validating her efforts and dedication.
• Blake discusses disconnecting from work during personal time, and Camilla applauds his boundaries, noting, “Good for you. Smart, too,” [42:11].
• Kelsey and Jennifer highlight the importance of boundaries and building a supportive village, addressing the challenges of modern parenting in 2025.

Personal Anecdotes and Setting Boundaries [43:14 - 50:31]

Jessica and Camilla share personal stories about parenting challenges, such as dealing with teenage responses and setting emotional boundaries. Jessica recounts a poignant moment with her child, who reassures her about pursuing her passion, saying, “Mom, you haven't done what you love doing the most for more than a minute,” [28:25], providing her with the emotional support needed to embrace her new role.

Camilla discusses strategies for managing confrontational moments with children, emphasizing the importance of walking away to regain composure and apologizing if necessary. This approach fosters a healthier parent-child relationship and models emotional regulation for their kids.

Conclusion: Replacing Guilt with Grace [50:06 - End]

In wrapping up, Jessica and Camilla emphasize the need to replace guilt with self-compassion and mutual support. They advocate for building strong communities and supportive networks to alleviate the pressures of motherhood. Jessica muses on finding a better term than "mom guilt," suggesting that constantly feeling guilty is detrimental to their well-being.

Camilla concludes with a humorous yet heartfelt note, “If I'm not screaming, then I'm not paying attention,” [45:05], encapsulating the chaotic yet loving reality of parenting.

Key Quotes

• Jessica Capshaw [09:10]: "Working is inherent to the title of being a mom."
• Camille Luddington [10:06]: "It's a dirty little secret, when you work outside the house, sometimes it's actually like a break from your own life."
• Camille Luddington [32:42]: "Stop shoulding on yourself. We have to accept we are doing the best we can."
• Jessica Capshaw [34:27]: "They’re expected to prioritize motherhood above all else, yet are also pressured to excel in their careers."
• Jessica Capshaw [28:25]: "Leah, you are a hero."
• Camille Luddington [45:05]: "If I'm not screaming, then I'm not paying attention."

Final Thoughts

"Call It Mom Guilt" is a compelling episode that authentically addresses the multifaceted emotions of motherhood. Through vulnerability and shared experiences, Jessica and Camilla offer a supportive space for listeners to reflect, find solace, and reclaim their sense of self beyond societal expectations. The episode serves as a compassionate reminder that while the journey of motherhood is fraught with challenges, it is also filled with moments of joy, resilience, and unwavering love.

Transcript

[Ryan Seacrest]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Camille Luddington]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report, call it what.

It Is with Jessica Capshaw and Camille Luddington and iHeartRadio podcast. Well hello, hello, hello, hello Call it crew.

[Camille Luddington]

And welcome to another episode of Call it what It Is. Capsha was busy this week. Looking gorgeous.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Oh come on now. Capsha was busy this week. Capture was so happy to be busy this week. Capsha got a little nervous. Why is Capsha talking about Capsha in the third person.

[Camille Luddington]

Well, should we talk about the. The call? This is really funny because. So Jess had upfronts this week, and we'll talk about what that is, but she called me after upfront. She FaceTimed me and I from her hotel, and she was looking stunning. And I look like. Like a naked mole rat. We just talked about a naked mole. I look like a naked mole rat. And I had my glass of wine and we just FaceTime for now. And the different. The difference between me and you in that moment, like, you're so swanky, and I was, like, so disgusting.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, don't worry. It only took 42 people and, you know, three hours.

[Camille Luddington]

So there is no amount of people that could have made me look like that night. But we got to, like. We got to, like, have a little, like, pow wow of, like, how your day went. And now we're going to share it with the Call it crew, too.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Upfronts is what they call the coming together of all the people who make decisions about where and how to spend advertising dollars on new shows. So each of the network used to be only networks. Now it's platforms, and now it's like there's all these different ones that. I mean, the one that I was at was Disney and Hulu and espn. So it's like, you know, there's a lot. But yeah, they have these, you know, presentations where they. They present the. The fall lineup and the advertisers and the people that are spending the money get to look at it and sort of interface with the casts and the creators and the showrunners, and then they come together and it's so. It's so nice.

[Camille Luddington]

It's very swanky.

[Jessica Capshaw]

It's very well produced.

[Camille Luddington]

It's very well produced. Let's talk about the fall lineup. Oh, oh, okay.

[Jessica Capshaw]

That's another crazy. So that's the first piece is the first piece, which is that they do this thing called Up Fronts where they put it all together. And then I've been a couple times in my life with different shows that either got picked up and didn't do very well or got, you know, whatever. Anyway, so I've been there a couple of times and I forgot that when you get there because they kind of keep it top secret until the day, but when you get there is when it will likely be revealed what night your show is on and at what time. And I hadn't even thought about when the show would be on.

[Camille Luddington]

So you truly don't know. Until it's sort of revealed. Right. Like, you're going into it as, like, the lead of a show, not knowing.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

When your show is going to air.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Until you could be. Yeah, you could. They could turn you into, like, you're.

[Camille Luddington]

At 10am on a Sunday.

[Jessica Capshaw]

You're like, all right, good luck with that.

[Camille Luddington]

It's going to be amazing.

[Jessica Capshaw]

People are going to be lining up.

[Camille Luddington]

It's going to be awesome.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Yes, you could. You could. And I think probably people do go. And they're like, disappoint. I mean, I might. I'm imagining this, but I'm imagining there's people that are disappointed, there's people that are excited about whatever time slot they get. We. So I get there and. And someone's like, oh, my gosh. So you're reunited with Gray. And I was like, no, no, no, no. I mean, yeah, I did last year, but. And. And always with Camilla. But no, no, no, I'm. I'm here with a different show. They're like, no, no, no. You're reunited with Gray's on the night. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And they said, you're. You're. Right before Gray's on the night.

[Camille Luddington]

I can't. What?

[Jessica Capshaw]

So it's 911 the original at 8pm on Thursday nights and 91 1, Nashville at 9 Thursday nights, and then Grey's Anatomy.

[Camille Luddington]

I just. I don't know why, but it, like, really. It made me geek out. I was like, oh, my God, we're both. We're reunited. We're on the same night again. I know, but you get to look probably a little bit more glam than I will.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you right now, without even having filmed a scene, not a frame has been filmed. And I can tell you, this will be the best dress that I ever will be or have been in my life is amazing.

[Camille Luddington]

And did you see anyone from Grey's Anatomy there?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Because, yeah, the night before, I'd. I'd been at a different event, and I came back to the hotel, and as I was walking into the hotel, I see Georgi Chandra Wilson. And I was like, wait, what? And so then I got to give her a big hug and I was so happy. And so she and Jim were there.

[Camille Luddington]

It is like seeing, like. It's like seeing family.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Absolutely, yeah. And I actually really did think to myself, because when you go to these things, you go party of one, you go by yourself. But I sat with Chandra and Jim, for a good amount of time.

[Camille Luddington]

There is like a safety and numbers thing that we get to do where there's so many of us that, like, it does take the stress off. And you're inheriting a brand new show in this incredible time slot. And so, like, that's. It is a high pressure situation because it's almost like. It's almost like the wedding day. Like, the announcement and the fanfare of, like, this buildup of, like, the show's coming and here's the casting announcement. And now. And you go and you meet all the execs and everything. You looked gorgeous. You sent me a picture. I say, wedding day. You were in.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, excuse me. I FaceTimed you when I put on the dress to say, am I good? Are we good? Am I good? And you and Lucas were sitting in the kitchen.

[Camille Luddington]

Do you know what you said to me? You go, I think you're frozen. And I was like, I'm not frozen. My mouth is so wide and gay. Seeing you that, like, I was speechless. And Jessica thought I had frozen on FaceTime. I had not. That's how shocked I. Not shocked shocked. I mean, like, listen, you look. But I was just like, oh, hot damn. 91 1. Nashville's coming in hot.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Coming in hot.

[Camille Luddington]

And then your picture, everything was amazing. It is nerve wracking.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Tiny little dress.

[Camille Luddington]

But yes, of course you. Of course it wouldn't be you if it wasn't. We don't need a maxi skirt on Capshaw's legs. Oh, let's talk about, though, because this is what our podcast is about today. It sort of is like the introduction.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Into what comes next into the.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. And it's gonna all be like a torn. Like a little snowball now from now on out into you being in Nashville and starting to film and navigate these new storylines, this new character in a new city. And we're talking about that and being a working mom.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Well, you know, I have so many thoughts on this, and I actually want to start it off by saying working mom is like working is inherent to the title of being a mom.

[Camille Luddington]

Yes. So true. Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I remember after having Luke being very purposeful about how I said working mom, because I used to think that a working mom was someone who became a mom and who worked at a job somewhere else. And now I'm so specific and I say whether you're working as a mom inside the house or you're outside the house, which of course is not like, yes. And, you know, change your home. But you know what I mean? I think that you're working no matter what. And there's this other set of circumstances and challenges that can sometimes come with not having any responsibilities or jobs outside of the house. Right. Because in. In a way, dirty little secret, when you work outside the house, sometimes it's actually like a break from your own life.

[Camille Luddington]

It's a. Oh, it's so true. I just had this conversation with. I went to dinner mommy friends last night, and we were talking about how you. We're more exhausted on the weekends when we don't work than when we are during the week.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I think a lot of people feel that way. A lot of parents. A lot of parents, yeah. Yes, absolutely. So I think that, you know, again, there's the set of circumstances and challenges that come for people who are, you know, 24, seven parents, and then there's a set of circumstances and challenges that come with people who work outside the house and they have, you know, demands on their time and things that they can't control. That's what I think for me is the differentiating factor is the things out of. Well, nothing is in our control. We know this from our friend Mel Robbins. But, yeah, less in your control. Like when you work outside the house, you don't. You don't get to dictate your schedule. Right. You. You have a schedule for work and you work with someone else or for someone else. And so you just have to. You got to roll with that. When you're, you know, when you're at home, it's kind of different. So, yeah, this was the beginning of understanding that there's going to be a schedule that I am going to be. I'm going to be on someone else's schedule for a minute.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. For people listening is your plan. Because there are lots of different ways that actors or anybody really navigates, you know, your work home and then your home home. Are you going to be sort of uprooting the kids to come with you to Nashville, or is the plan to keep them in New York, in their schools, in their comfy place, and you're going to be going back and forth?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, the. I mean, the. What I realized at Gray's for all the ages that my kids have been, was that the best thing possible given that much like the characters that we played were kind of on call, the best thing was for the kids to have their schedule that is in so far as you can control things, stays constant and the same and stable, and then they are cared for no matter what. And you're the variable that comes in and out. And that really worked for me at Gray's. And then I was thinking back on it because there was a great advantage to being local. Right. So you're living it. Right. I would just come anytime. I mean, the second that I was off of work, I was going straight home. Especially when they were really, really little. Towards the end, I learned that they were just a little bit more. It wasn't so, like, it wasn't so overwhelming. So there would be a time where on the way home, I'd be like, I'm gonna stop over here and grab a little lunch on my way home or whatever. Yeah, they still think I'm at work.

[Camille Luddington]

Exactly. But you know what? When you walk through that door, like they're upstairs or playing, they're like, hey, Mom. Or they're like they're going. Heading to a sleepover or so. You know, it's like.

[Jessica Capshaw]

It's just when they're older, but when they're babies, you do like.

[Camille Luddington]

Oh, no.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Straight up.

[Camille Luddington]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. So I think that, you know, their lives will stay, you know, the same and constant, and. And then, you know, you. I will, you know, basically commute, which evidently is a hot topic. Evidently a lot. Right after Covet, a lot of people commute to places that you would think are kind of crazy, because it seems. Yeah, but. Yeah, and I think that, you know, you just kind of.

[Camille Luddington]

You work it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

My whole thing, I really been thinking about it because it's actually coming up on us quick. I. I can't think about the future. I gotta just stay present and I gotta work it till it works. Because also, it just seems to change all the time.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel. Are you one of those moms that feels like when you head into your school, you feel the other mom sort of eyeballing you because you. You're not volunteering. We got this as a question because, you know, someone wrote in and literally asked us, and it's. It's. I am not the mom that's able to go and volunteer every week, so. But I don't feel the eyeballs on me.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, I don't feel self conscious about that. You know, and we have hiatuses, you know, on shows. So you're not always working and you're not always working outside the house. No, I don't know. I don't. I don't feel the eyeballs because I. Whenever. I mean, I do whatever I can when I can, you know, So I do volunteer. I mean, I do volunteer as much as I can, which sometimes even Even if it's in a smaller amount of time is more than what other people do. I. I personally choose to give all the grace to everyone, choosing how they're going to spend their time at school. Like, there are some people who can show up for every single volunteer opportunity. God bless. That's fantastic. And that works for you. There's some people who can't at all, but they can create some other value that they add to their, you know, kids, school experience. I don't know. But, like, I just always assume that we're all doing our best, so lay off the eyeballs.

[Camille Luddington]

I love that about you. And I. And I do feel. But you can correct me if I'm wrong. I do feel like you don't put the pressure on yourself to be like, I need to be a perfect mom. I need to look like I have it all together all the time. I. You know, like an eye and even the mom guilt. I think that you've done such a great job at understanding the nuances to motherhood and that we don't need to feel guilty over it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Well, thank you for that. That's a huge compliment. But I don't think we need to feel guilty about it. I think that. I think that. I think we need to have and give ourselves and others more grace. I think that it's. It's hard. It's hard being a parent. It's also magical and wonderful. And one of the coolest things I've ever, ever, ever gotten to experience. I don't know, like, let everybody do it. How they want to do it, is that it's kind of how I feel. And I definitely don't think. I don't even know what perfect is.

[Camille Luddington]

I don't know what it is either. That's such an interesting question. Like, what is perfect? Yeah. I think. I think the pressure to whatever that is has become like, social media, obviously, and. And all these different accounts that portray whatever their version of perfect is makes it harder to potentially lean into being quote, unquote, perfect or trying to aspire to be quote, unquote perfect. But I agree. I don't even know what that is.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Mm. Mm. The only time that I feel compromised or I'm gonna. I'm gonna choose to say less than, because that's closest to how I feel.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Is if for some reason, my lack of attention to either emails, handouts that go in backpacks, or word of mouth, or what's it called, Team Snap. All the things and all the ways that these, you know, your children's Stuff gets communicated to you when I don't see it or I've missed something and one of my kids kind of, you know, the consequences fall on them. You know, like they show up and it's like, you know, a theme day and they're not dressed.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

You know, if they, if they, if they don't show up for the game because I got moved to a different field, if they. That kind of stuff that, that can make me feel like I just. Because I feel that I've disappointed my kid in somehow some way or like because of something that I've not done, I'm a little. That's when I can be a little hard on myself.

[Camille Luddington]

I'm hard on myself too about that. Here's what's frustrating to me about school right now in 2025. It's not that you have one place that you log in that has all the information. They're like, hey, we have about 30 different sites, everything. It's like, here's the lunch side. Once you're, Once you're on here, you can't find the after school activity site. That's a different site that we've invented.

[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Camille Luddington]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Camille Luddington]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Camille Luddington]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Camille Luddington]

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[Jessica Capshaw]

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[Camille Luddington]

Those small wins seriously that I get is when I realize that I even know the password for one of those sites because I'm so tired of being like, what's your username? I don't know. I have kids. Help me. This is the My email. My email. What I don't know.

[Jessica Capshaw]

My email all caps. My email. Lowercase. Yeah, my email with the handle at the end.

[Camille Luddington]

So I. Let's give ourselves, like, the small wins when we know a password to one of those sites.

[Jessica Capshaw]

When we're able to log into veracross Fresh Lunches.

[Camille Luddington]

When I've. When I've logged into Fresh Lunches or when I've. Oh, the joy I get. The literally, like, am I amazing when that password has been saved into my phone and it's like the auto login, I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, why am I winning it live today? And then I can't even navigate that site, by the way, because they make it not user friendly, whatever that link is that I need. Yeah, not there. So I take the small wins. As a parent, I'm very type B too, so it's like those. Those. Those borderline type A wins for me. They feel real good. Mm.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I really felt that, what you just said.

[Camille Luddington]

Every word of it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Every single word. And anyone who's listening right now, if you're a child, you just. You. You just press pause, wait till I'm finished, and then press pause.

[Camille Luddington]

Okay?

[Jessica Capshaw]

If you're a child and you're old enough to communicate to your parent, just. Just communicate. Thank you. To them right now, just. Dad, mom, mom, dad, Dad. I thank you. Thank you for logging in. Thank you for logging in and knowing your username and passwords. Now you can press pause. And then when you come back, I will tell you that as a parent, it's some. It's a crazy, wild world out there. And you're right. There's 9,500 different sites, usernames, and passwords.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. Because back in our day, there, there. Our parents got sent home with a little piece of paper that was in the backpack. I love a piece of paper. Let me fill it out. Let me put it back in.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yep, that's.

[Camille Luddington]

That's what I want to do. I want to do a little 1998 parenting. That's what I like. So obviously the kids have seen you on shows for a very long time, so I'm assuming at this point they. They know what you do for a living, but how do you kind of explain your job in this world to them?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, same. Same to you.

[Camille Luddington]

Right?

[Jessica Capshaw]

We kind of go away and at different ages, they understand it differently. I mean, I think when they're younger, it's just you're away and then you're back. They don't really care. They don't even. They're not Even attach. Doing something wherever you go.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. Hayden's like, you're kind of a doctor. Oh, the other day she was like, you're, you're. She was confused. She's like, you're getting married. Because I was like talking to Matt and I was like, yes, but on the show. And then Lucas the other day said, you have a job. So that's where I met. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And then also you add into it once you've explained your job. And I always do it. I'm so. You can only imagine me. It's like I give the most flowery explanation about the storytelling and the job that I have as a storyteller. And then you. And then they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, what can I actually see that you do? And they're like, okay, I see that, that people come up and that they like this stuff, you know, that they want to talk about this Arizona thing situation. And then now there's this new job where they're like, okay, I don't, don't completely get it. But there is so much, you know, at their level being sort of reported and. Or their friends are saying like, you know, oh my gosh, your mom was on Instagram or whatever. I think they think maybe my job isn't on Instagram. Like, like I, like, I post things for a living.

[Camille Luddington]

Like, do they like influencer status?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, maybe I just get dressed up and hair, makeup and different outfits and then I just post pictures.

[Camille Luddington]

And then you're just like, are you walking through the house with a ring light? You're like, I might just. Yeah, yeah. Just in case, you know, you catch some good content.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Nothing is further from who I am.

[Camille Luddington]

I'm laughing because I'm like, this is just so. This is the complete.

[Jessica Capshaw]

It actually sounds like my nightmare.

[Camille Luddington]

It is. It is your nightmare. It's my nightmare too. I don't want to do that.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, I do not. But yes. Okay, so they understand and. But they, they're. None of my kids have exited the, you know, egocentric phase of their lives. Like they're, they just want to know what, what they care about with regards job is just how it affects them. Like, how does your job affect us in any way, shape or form? Although I don't know if I told you this, but I. Because I was so touched by this, I was going to maybe do the show and we knew that it was in Nashville, which is not far from New York city and there's 10 non stop flights a day from LaGuardia. So it's all. It's all good, and. And as easy as it could be. Right. But it was still like, okay, it's. It's a. It's a minute away. And I was just doing a lot of talking about it out loud, like, okay, well, this is what this means. And. And obviously, like, there would be time away and then back, and then we figure it out. And the girls were kind of like, you know. Yeah, okay. And again, how does this affect me and our schedule and everything else? And I was probably, like, the fourth or fifth time that Luke had heard me say, like, you know, I mean, I think he heard me not worrying, but being mindful, like, just like, ooh, how's this gonna work out? And he stopped me and he said, mom, you haven't done what you love doing the most for more than a minute. And I can't even imagine if I couldn't, you know, pursue my passion for. For more than a minute. So of course you're going to go, and of course we're going to figure out how to make it work, and, of course it will all work out. And I truly looked at my child. Young man. And I got, like, tears, like, to my eyes. And I was so touched that he was able. Number one, able to console me.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Comfort me. But that he was looking at it that way, that he was looking at it like, your job and your work. Oh, it's gonna make me cry now. Like, your job and your work means so much to you, and you haven't been doing it because you've been taking care of us or you've been, you know, creating other places that you can work where you can be home a little bit more or whatever. It being in Nashville should not get in the way of you doing it. And I was so. I was blown away. I was really blown away by that. And I was just. Just also very, very, very proud of him and his perspective and his kindness, his kindness and giving that to me because I. I really needed it. I needed him. I needed him. I needed that feeling from my family.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm gonna go do something important.

[Camille Luddington]

Oh, my God, Luke.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I know.

[Camille Luddington]

Luke. Oh, what a mush. And did you. Do you feel like it, like, settled, like, helped ground it for you?

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes. I think it might have been the actual linchpin moment. It might have been the actual exact moment that I felt really at peace. And I was sort of, in a way, all this sounds crazy, but, like, I was allowed to just be excited about it.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And know that it was like he. He made me feel like it was gonna be okay. However it got done, we didn't know, but it was gonna be okay.

[Camille Luddington]

And it is. And it's going to be so exciting. And I'm telling you what, those kids are gonna, they're gonna fall in love with Nashville and they do get to go with you.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I know, I know, I know, I know. And it's, you know, it's summertime, so it's also a little more flexibility. It's going to be great.

[Camille Luddington]

It's gonna be perfect.

[Jessica Capshaw]

But I do think, obviously we've talked about Mom Guild with regards to us and how we manage it. That being said, there's so many different kinds of jobs and all different kinds of jobs have a lot of different limitations. And. And I think that that's why I said that, you know, I can only speak from my perspective. I don't know what everyone else's, you know, job is or how they get it done and everything else. But I think that when. Because it's so specific, I think this idea of mom guilt, it's. I don't. You don't hear dad guilt as much, but I think that you have to sort of like be gentle with yourself.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Whatever it is that you do and find the other moms in your community who, who get it and who are also. Who are definitely not side eyeing you and are definitely the ones where, you know, I always, I mean, listen, I clearly love humor, but like the, the other parents at school that get you or that you understand or you, that you like or that you laugh with or whatever. And I think that, I mean, listen, the best case scenarios then like, my favorite favorite communities of school to be in have been ones where people were like, how can I help? Like, you know, let's, let's, let's figure out the carpool. Let's figure out, like, I can't do this volunteer thing, but you can. And like, I mean, even today, you know, I couldn't be at this thing this morning and, and I got a bunch of videos of my kids.

[Camille Luddington]

Oh my God. I.

[Jessica Capshaw]

From other parents. And it was so great.

[Camille Luddington]

I am so like, blessed to have found the mom group that I have and that I feel very like I really dearly love them all. And the same when I. There are times when I haven't been able to be there and I'll receive so many different videos from different angles. I know that none of them are like, she can't be here, you know, Absolutely not. There's definitely like Help with the carpool and the pickup. We're all in it together. And I do think it's important when you're in a position of having the demands of working and mom working that you find those people.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

So let's talk about some articles that have been written that were kind of interesting to me. So today didn't did a whole thing on this and it was what is mom guilt and how can you manage it? And it was a therapy, a therapist, a mama four broke it down and, and how to manage mom guilt. And she said, number one, stop. Oh, this is a good one. Stop shoulding on yourself. We have to accept we are doing the best we can.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Like, you should be doing this, you.

[Camille Luddington]

Should be doing that. I should have done. You know, there's so much happening. Yeah, I think that that's a good one.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? Every area of life.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop shooting. Let's stop shooting.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Sounds like you're saying stop shooting.

[Camille Luddington]

I mean, stop the shitting. Well, you know, of course you would segue, you guys. The listeners know at this point, if just it can segue to a poop or a fart, it might happen.

[Jessica Capshaw]

You said it. Okay, number two, consider the positives of mom guilt.

[Camille Luddington]

Oh, interesting.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Remind yourself that it's a, if you, you might be having a mom fail, but that you're not a failure as a mom. Ooh.

[Camille Luddington]

Separate the incident from your identity. Oh, I like that. Okay. Number three, talk to other empathetic moms, which we just talked about.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yep. Number four, focus on your wins, which is what you do when you get into just one of those websites.

[Camille Luddington]

Oh, yeah. Are you kidding? Mommy deserves a medal.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Number five, put it all in perspective.

[Camille Luddington]

That's a good one. Because sometimes like, you're, you're operating in a way that's like just so, like within the moment.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

Taking that bird's eye view back is, is all good. Forbes navigating the the guilt of balancing career ambitions and motherhood. More than one third of mothers in the usa. It's possible to combine a career and motherhood. I think I, I, I, I agree with it. I think, you know, it just comes with a level. Of course it's possible. It just comes a lot of how we do it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

It's how we do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ambition and working mothers is often misunderstood. They're expected to prioritize motherhood above all else, yet are also pressured to excel in their careers. This one gets under my skin. Probably because it hits me where it hurts. Probably because I feel It. I feel it. I do. I feel like obviously, above all else. Right.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah, of course.

[Jessica Capshaw]

You would do anything. You would throw your body in front of. Of, you know, it's our job. It's in our biology, it's in our culture, everything. And sometimes we're at work. And I remember the hardest days were the days where, like, one of the kids would be sick, and that's when I would be like, I can't believe.

[Camille Luddington]

I have to leave.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I think it's so hard. No matter what your job is, no matter where your job is, no matter how long you have to be gone for work or whatever, this idea that you are meant to always be holding your family and your children above all else.

[Camille Luddington]

But the hard. Here's the reality of this. Let's call it. Right. We're working. Yes. Because we might love our jobs. Or maybe you don't love your job. You're working to earn money, most likely to support your family.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes.

[Camille Luddington]

So the work is prioritizing motherhood. I know women are expected to work like they don't have children and mother like they don't work. Constantly carrying this heavy burden of responsibility will, of course, inevitably lead to the guilt of always falling short. This is, this is. This is on the heads of the people that run these companies because you don't actually have to have this tone in the workplace at all.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. The responsibility does fall on the companies that. That or the people that employ, you know, working parents. And I think it's really important. I think that's an incredibly, incredibly good point. And it puts the responsibility where it should be. And I also think that it's why I feel very cozy in my relationship to compromise as opposed to balance on any given day. I might be a great mom, but that probably on that day, I wasn't great at work.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. And we've talked about this.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. You know, I just don't do it. You can't do it all at one time. You can do it. You can try to do it all, but you can't do it all at one time.

[Camille Luddington]

And the truth is, I. I look at Lucas and I look at Hayden, and if they have kids one day, I don't want them to feel. I don't want. I want them to take that pressure off themselves, too.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

You know what I mean? Like, I don't want them to have to navigate any sort of parenthood situation where they feel like it's on them to. To. To always be perfect. It's not. It's not going to be so like they're definitely seeing that for me.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay, so let's hear from our crew. Maria wrote in and said, I'm 35, and I decided today that it's time to reclaim my career now that my kids are two. And for get it excited for you, go do it.

[Camille Luddington]

Leah says, I'm a nurse who works night shifts. I tend to push myself to stay awake when I should sleep because I don't want to miss anything with my kids. I have so much guilt if I can't be the fun mom I want to be.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I. I hear you.

[Camille Luddington]

I really hear you. And honestly, I think that calling it being like, I am so tired. Right. I love you guys and. And just. Just being honest about how you're feeling. Like, I'm. I have. I'm really stressed out right now. I need silence. Me being honest with where I'm. The litmus test of, like, where I'm at in the day helps me feel less guilty, actually. So they know that I'm just like, why won't mom play with us? It's like, I think they're getting. They're learning to be empathetic to other humans because I'm explaining being human. Yeah, I'm being human also.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Leah, you are a hero. I mean, you are a nurse who works night shifts. That is incredible. So give yourself a bit of grace there. They will understand. It might not be right now, but they will understand later in life just what that means. And. And, wow, you're. You're awesome. Blake wrote in and said, when I am off work, I am off. No apps on my phone related to work. Good for you.

[Camille Luddington]

Yes.

[Jessica Capshaw]

For you. Smart, too.

[Camille Luddington]

It's true.

[Jessica Capshaw]

You gotta put the phone down.

[Camille Luddington]

We had this experience on Grey's Anatomy where from the top down, starting with Shonda Rhimes. Right. I learned that there were people set boundaries of, hey, this is the time that I'm gonna switch off.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Oh, yes, in her emails.

[Camille Luddington]

Yes, exactly. And I loved that because I thought, like, Shonda Rhymes is creating this boundary for herself where she's like, okay, this is my time where I'm. I'm taking time to do whatever I need to do. Maybe that's a great. And it sort of gave us all permission to.

[Jessica Capshaw]

There's work time and then home time.

[Camille Luddington]

Yes, exactly. Right. But I don't think that everyone gets that. And I really appreciate.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No, they all, like, expect you to. If you don't answer within, you know, five minutes, you need to be available.

[Camille Luddington]

At, like, 11:00pm yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kelsey, Boundaries. There were. There are a few. There are a few years that my child needs me. Work will always be there.

[Jessica Capshaw]

There you go. Well, it's gonna be more than a few years, Kelsey, that your child needs you.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm now familiar with this term. I think it's so incredible. There's parenting, which is assigned to, I guess, when they're adolescents, and then once they've exited adolescence. A friend of mine was saying that that's. You then enter a parent. You then enter a period of adulting. Because I swear, once they cross over, like, even if they cross past 25, they still need you. And also the whole, like, little kids, little problems, like, ouch, I. I hurt my. I scratched my knee. Or like, oh, I'm being left out at the lunch table. But then they're like, big kids, big problems. And all of a sudden you're dealing with, like, drinking and you're dealing with.

[Camille Luddington]

Drugs or, mom, there's my. What, My apartment's flooded. Who do I call? And you're like, damn, you know what, though? You know what, though? Less websites, Less websites.

[Jessica Capshaw]

No username for no username. Don't need a password.

[Camille Luddington]

Jennifer said meeting everyone's needs feels impossible. Having a village is so important. That's a lot of conversations happening right now about how in 2025, raising children, a village is harder to come by. A lot of conversations around this Y. And if you can build one, it is, yes, do it. It's so important. But it. People are finding this really hard.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. Jess wrote it and said, hardcore mom guilt. When I lose my cool and yell, okay, J. We've all been here. We've all been here. If you're not. If you're not screaming, you're not paying attention.

[Camille Luddington]

You don't care. Yes.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Capture.

[Camille Luddington]

Put it on A t. SHIR. Oh, my God. I'll never take it off.

[Jessica Capshaw]

If you're.

[Camille Luddington]

And that's what I'm gonna say. If I'm not screaming, then I'm not paying attention.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay? But here's what I think about that, is that that's part of life. And we need to.

[Camille Luddington]

We.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Well, first of all, we need to. We need to be responsible with our anger, right? And never let it get oversized in the sense that, like, it's scary, right? We can have healthy anger. We can be upset. We can lose our co. Yell. We can have these things. And we can also let our kids know that we're still in control, that we are okay. They are okay. And then I think that the number one thing you do once your brain comes back online is you can always say, I'm sorry about that. I lost my cool and I yelled and I. You know what? I'm. I'm sorry because maybe I didn't even just yell once, maybe I yelled twice, and maybe I'm going to do it again tomorrow.

[Camille Luddington]

I don't know. But.

[Jessica Capshaw]

And it's, you know, I'm not trying to say, like, you know, it's like a pattern of, you know, of. Of yelling, but I think that when you take responsibility for it, I think that it's. It is part of life.

[Camille Luddington]

I've started to learn that actually I called you or. Or we were texting from the car. My children, I've learned basically that I need a moment and sometimes I just need to. Okay, so, like, Jessica's like, hey, can you talk? And I'm like, like, sure. I've been sitting in my driveway for 15 minutes because my kids on the way home drove me so insane that I literally said, jesus, take the wheel and Matt, take the kids. And Matt took the kids inside, and I don't even want to see their little faces. And I just need to decompress because I cannot parent. So I've learned those moments where, like, it will be screaming unhinged for an hour if I don't just sit. I gotta tell you also, I gotta tell you, like, I had to. A sneak peek of teenage years possibly in this little exchange with Hayden last weekend. And it could have ended up in me losing my cool, but I walked away and then had to come back and have a conversation with her. But I'm going to tell you how this conversation went. I hate bedtimes, right? Like, my children are not like, oh, it's time to brush my teeth. Okay, great. They're like, what? Oh, my.

[Jessica Capshaw]

What She. A bath.

[Camille Luddington]

You know, it's like this whole thing. I was so overwhelmed and exhausted. And I said something under my breath, right, that was like, oh, these kids never listen, and I am having to do everything. And Hayden walked by, and this is what she. This is what she said. She goes, that's being a parent. And I turned around, and I literally was so shocked that she was like, that's being. And she gave me a look that was like kind of like a little smirk. Like, that's what you get for having.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Signed up for mom.

[Camille Luddington]

That's what you signed up for. And I said, well, you know what being a kid is? This is not the mature response.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I was gonna say. Wow.

[Camille Luddington]

No, no. I was like, being a kid means listening. And you know what she said? She goes, I listened this morning, by the way. This is. This is like 7pm at night. I had to walk. I was so, like, I had to walk away. And I went to Matt and I said, let me just tell you about this tiny little exchange that makes me really excited for 15 years old because she's 8. And then I had to come back and, like, lay down some real nice boundaries. Okay? Mommy's not gonna be talking to you like that.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Okay? I also love that you might be the number one person that I know can deliver a comeback. Like, I. If I had to phone a friend, if I had to bet on. If I was in Vegas, I had to bet on someone, I would literally like you. You. It would be you, like, so far. Like, so far ahead of everyone else I know that could come up with an amazing comeback. You would be my go to comeback girl. And that you did not deliver in that moment.

[Camille Luddington]

I did not. And. And. And that's scary. Older brother. Did she intimidate you? Because what happened was, is her comeback, which was. Which was not a good comeback, but it was a comeback of, like, I listened this morning, was so confident that I think I. I did say to Matt, I think she has my comebacks. Like, I think she has the comeback gene.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

And by 15, she might start. Be starting to perfect it.

[Jessica Capshaw]

She's 8 now, and she got you. So what's the. Where's the growth that needs to happen? She got you. It's already done.

[Camille Luddington]

I mean, it's cooking. Yeah, it's cooking. But I. Yes, I've learned to walk away, but I've also learned that I do. Yo.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

And. And. And, yeah, you gotta walk it back. Listen, less guilt for us moms. We're really trying to. We're trying our best out here.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yeah. I also just think we need to replace guilt with something else. Like, I get it.

[Camille Luddington]

So tired of the term.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I'm like, why would anyone feel guilty? I just think we need a better word or we need a better thing to replace guilt with. Like, I don't know what that is.

[Camille Luddington]

I'm gonna have to. Yeah, I think it gets thrown around so much that I'm tired of hearing it, actually.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Yes. Then why am I so.

[Camille Luddington]

I don't know what that term is, but I'm gonna think on that, too, because maybe we. Maybe we call the podcast Not Mom Guilt. I don't know. You'll find out if we've thought of something because it's a different term, and if it's mom guilt, then we haven't.

[Jessica Capshaw]

I think we're losing it now. I think now we're. Now we're done.

[Camille Luddington]

O.

[Jessica Capshaw]

Call it the end of the episode.