Camilla Luddington (2:24)

Call it what It Is with Jessica Capshaw and Camille Ludington.

Jessica Capshaw (2:28)

An iHeartRadio podcast.

Camilla Luddington (2:41)

Well, hello, hello, hello, hello. Call it crew. And welcome to another episode of Call.

Jessica Capshaw (2:46)

It what It Is, the social media addition.

Camilla Luddington (2:52)

Yeah, we've talked about this a little or a lot in terms of youth. Right. And its effect on youth. And then, and then we had some conversations this week and then we thought we'd deep dive into like the adultness of it all and adulting in the world with social media and. But I'm gonna let we use It.

Jessica Capshaw (3:12)

How it affects us.

Camilla Luddington (3:13)

It totally.

Jessica Capshaw (3:15)

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, this particular subject came from personal experience this week. Right. So I had a moment where, you know, when you're. When you're launching a show, you're. I mean, I personally, just to set up how I use my social media, I'm. I pretty much mostly use Instagram. I also use TikTok or I'll sometimes, you know, share the same reel. Or TikTok.

Camilla Luddington (3:44)

You know, on both, you cross promote.

Jessica Capshaw (3:46)

I cross promote. I cross pollinate. And you actually were the one that brought me into making it fun and. And having the opportunity to put together reels that actually were a little bit like, it's me, but it's not me. Like, it's me playing a version of me and then kind of coming up with these situations where you're either, you know, picking up on a trend that is, you know, fun and interesting and kind of like you can step into another Persona. Right. Whether it's using another audio or whether it's another person's ide that you're sort of dovetailing on. And that part for me was really great because it let me step out of myself because I found that if I was only posting for me as Jessica Capshaw, I felt a little self conscious. I felt a little vulnerable. I felt a little bit like, what? Who cares? Like, or what. What am I posting a picture of my. My food. Yeah. My. My interests, my kids, my work. Like, it was like, there's just too much. So you actually were the person that pulled it and pulled me into it and made it fun. When I came back to Gray's and we did the Barbie video, that was like the first one that I was like, this is fun. And I really. If you. My memory was that I just did whatever you told me to do.

Camilla Luddington (5:08)

You did, you did. I see it as. I. I mean, I. I can appreciate the people, and I think it's really vulnerable for the people that are out there really, truly, like, blogging their lives. Right. And they are putting them their full, authentic sel. Social media. I think of my social media as an extension of, like, another way of performing in a way. And it's just fun. And you get to promote and show different sides of yourself. And, you know, we both work on, you know, dramatic shows, and I wanted to be like, well, and here's. Here's the comedy that I like to play with too.

Jessica Capshaw (5:46)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (5:47)

I think that the podcast ends up being Camila showing up, but the social media, to me is an extension of performance.

Jessica Capshaw (5:56)

Yeah. Yeah. Camilla, as an actress who plays different parts.

Camilla Luddington (6:00)

Yes.

Jessica Capshaw (6:00)

But you're still. You're still you. Right. Because you.

Camilla Luddington (6:03)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (6:04)

You're in charge. And that's what I think is really important about social media, is that you are in charge. I mean, how. How you decide to curate your feed, whether it's your static feed or your stories, is. It's your choice. I mean, no one's. You're doing it for yourself.

Camilla Luddington (6:19)

But you're not going to know how I'm feeling that week off of my reels. No. If you listen to. Call it what it is, you're going to have an idea of how I'm feeling that week. But if you're looking at my reels, it's. It's a whole different media medium for me. Right.

Jessica Capshaw (6:35)

Yes. And when I look at yours, they're without artifice. I don't see you putting anything on. I see you just having fun and telling a story.

Camilla Luddington (6:45)

Yes.

Jessica Capshaw (6:45)

No. So it's not. I don't think it's inauthentic. I don't think it's, you know. No, no, not you. I just think it's like this, this performance. So anyways, I have been engaging in all of that just a little bit more and leaning into it and full disclosure, my. My kids don't have it, my daughters don't have it. And. And by the way, they still figure out how, like, how. And what is happening on there. I don't know what.

Camilla Luddington (7:11)

Because their friends probably have it and they're.

Jessica Capshaw (7:12)

And they have workarounds.

Camilla Luddington (7:13)

Yeah, of course. Course.

Jessica Capshaw (7:15)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (7:15)

Did they want it? Wait, I'm interested. They. What do they want? They want Instagram. What are they. What is it that they would want?

Jessica Capshaw (7:21)

The threshold line right now is being held at Snapchat, so. Because that's how they. That's how they communicate.

Camilla Luddington (7:29)

Well, I. I learned this by the way, when I was with your children. I was, like, so deeply confused, and they had to tell me over and over again what was happening. I was like, I don't get it. Still.

Jessica Capshaw (7:41)

Yes. And that's just Luke and Eve, because it feels age appropriate for them, but it's not the youngers, and. And we are, again, full disclosure, like, there's a real plan and there's a real, carefully considered amount of screen time and exposure. I do think that there's some aspects of it that are just, you know, really need to be examined by parents, and it's your choice and you, you know, you go get the information and you do with it what you will. Anyways. So this week, though, you would love Instagram. You would love Instagram.

Camilla Luddington (8:15)

Okay.

Jessica Capshaw (8:15)

I would argue that Instagram is probably ex. Exactly what she does not need. They don't need any of it.

Camilla Luddington (8:22)

The truth is, we don't need any of it. But what was it? What is interesting is we have. We've covered this. We've covered the teen element, and we've. We've talked about, like, the. I have, like, I've pledged the oath, like. No.

Jessica Capshaw (8:35)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (8:35)

No. And. And you haven't done that. Yes. And you were explaining your reasons why you didn't do that. And I was explaining the reasons for.

Jessica Capshaw (8:42)

It was pretty close, by the way. Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (8:44)

Yeah. The adulting of it, though, is what we're really deep diving into. Do you want to say sort of more on what happened this week?

Jessica Capshaw (8:51)

Okay. So Eve finds this trend, which is throwing a fit, and she's like, I think that this is the one. So, you know, we're. We're playing around and we're at work and we're doing a bunch of stuff, and, you know, I pull Chris into it, and I pull Chris o' Donnell into it, and he's like, totally game to do this. This piece of it. And then we edit it all together, and then I see the final product, and for what. And I have a completely unreasonable. I. What would we call it? Because I called you. Did it. What did it sound like to you?

Camilla Luddington (9:22)

I mean, it's. You were overanalyzing, overthinking, like, the.

Jessica Capshaw (9:28)

It.

Camilla Luddington (9:28)

Like, it's like inside out. Like, anxiety and inside out, too. It just reminded me of anxiety and inside out, too. You're like, what do you think about this? But what about this part of it?

Jessica Capshaw (9:35)

What?

Camilla Luddington (9:35)

This part of it, you know, and it's like, as an outsider, you're like, it's cute. It's funny. It's fine. It's. Just post it like there's nothing. It's all cute, you know? And it's like, you start to. I. I will say in our def. You are posting to a lot of people. You're not posting to, like, Aunt Bev. And then it's. You know what I mean? Like. And that's all that's gonna see it. I do think there are elements. Sometimes I post things from the show and I'm like, oh, my God, what's in the background? Is there a spoiler? Like, I'm thinking in terms of that.

Jessica Capshaw (10:04)

Yes, that adds to it for sure.

Camilla Luddington (10:06)

But it was a side of you that I rarely see. And you're like, I have true anxiety right now in. In my world. And I was like, welcome to the dark side. I was like, listen, you've got anxiety. I know what that is, because when we were starting out this podcast, by the way, you would say, I'm not. I'm not someone that has a lot of anxiety.

Jessica Capshaw (10:30)

Yeah. Yes. Well. And then I. I got very curious. I mean, I've gotten very curious about anxiety because I have so many people who. I love that. That. That are negotiating it, and I want to be there for them in the best way that I can, because evidently it's not. To tell the person who's worried to stop worrying. Yeah, that's evidently not the right answer. Or to even tell them it's all going to be okay. That's also not a great answer for someone who's genuinely worrying. But something rang really true for me, which was that in that moment, I wasn't having a worry. I wasn't having a singular worry. It wasn't like, I'm worried about this, and that's my body and brain's natural process of letting me know that there's a disturbance in the force and I need to pay attention to it. I was worrying. I was. I was having more than one worry. And the worries were all in the future. They were how this was going to play out, not what it was. It wasn't about the present tense and the intent of this cute little reel or how it came together or what it looked like it was like, but what will. And evidently, by the way, this worrying and the perseverance of the worry. All those. All those. The way you don't want to go is all the what ifs. Like, as soon as you start saying what if this and what if that, you're definitely going down the road of just letting that worry get bigger and bigger and bigger. So I found myself worrying and in unfamiliar territory because I didn't know how to stop the worry. And so I called you because you also are my social media expert. And I said, as my social media expert and my bestie. What? Can you help me with this?

Camilla Luddington (12:12)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (12:13)

And what did you say?

Camilla Luddington (12:15)

Well, first off, I saw the reel because I thought it was super cute before you posted it. And I think we should acknowledge that these are. These. These will. This is what's interesting about anxiety. These are not world like crazy houses on fire problems, right? Oh, but your body feels like it is. This is what I deal with. Anxiety. A very tiny thing can really set me off where it's like, this is the end of the world. Right.

Jessica Capshaw (12:40)

And it's not.

Camilla Luddington (12:41)

And it's tiny and really not. And it's. And in this case, it was a social media post and you had started to like, overanalyze. Right?

Jessica Capshaw (12:48)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (12:48)

And so I said to you, I know that it doesn't help anyone say, like, it's great, it's fine, just host it. Right. Because you're futurizing. You told me that you were futurizing.

Jessica Capshaw (12:57)

Yeah, I was.

Camilla Luddington (12:57)

And without even telling me what exactly those futurizing things were, I said to you, which we've talked about on the pod before. Ask yourself what else is true? Because it sort of grounds you back. Like, okay, what if, you know, like, what if this social media post go, you know, like leads to blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, what's true? No, you know, and, and so I, I literally wrote out for you in a text what I thought was all true about it. Like, what else is true? This is a cute post. What else is true? You have to promote your show. What else is true? You look great, Chris. Looks great. Like, it's fun, it's light, there's nothing. And so we broke it down. And then I think that it helped.

Jessica Capshaw (13:37)

It absolutely helped because it brought me back to the present tense and it brought me back to I was going into I'm wrong or I could be wrong or I. Or, you know, I mean, to put a finer point on it, you know, I think it was like, do I look like a big old ding dong? Do I look like I'm taking myself seriously? Do I look like. That was like a big one for me. Do I look like I'm taking myself seriously? And I think I'm all that a bag of chips, you know, walking down and, and, and also, by the way, throwing a little. Let them. You can't control it, right? You keep. Once you put stuff on social media, you can't control what the comments are. You can't control how someone sees it. And it's not yours to, to do that. Right.

Camilla Luddington (14:19)

I also do think, I want to give you some credit for this, for feeling this way, because I also do think that when you're like 22, strutting your stuff and like a black, it's like, oh, yeah, she's young, she's feeling herself. And there is, and we've talked about this there and I hope, hopefully it's not. It's, it's. We're all steering away from this. But I do think there's a part of you, it's like, I'm Getting older. Like, I'm in my 40s, like, and I'm feeling myself. Like, can I feel myself? Does it look lame that I'm feeling myself? No, but I, But I feel like there's this element of that in it, too. That's like a layer.

Jessica Capshaw (14:54)

Right, right, right.

Camilla Luddington (14:55)

As a female, which I really don't like. I hope we're strutting like that in a short dress at 80, Jess.

Jessica Capshaw (15:01)

Yes. And we will be. We will be arms wherever we are, whatever fabulous place we've gone to, I mean, that's what I want for us. I, I.

Camilla Luddington (15:11)

How does it manifest for you physically? Because we haven't talked about you having.

Jessica Capshaw (15:16)

Yeah, yeah.

Camilla Luddington (15:16)

Like this.

Jessica Capshaw (15:17)

I, like, my somatic response is instant sweaty armpits. Yeah, it's real sexy. It's instant sweaty armpits. And then I think I feel it in my stomach and my chest. Yeah, yeah. And it, it's weirdly linked to. It always goes back to the same thing, which is like, have I done something wrong?

Camilla Luddington (15:38)

And it's like, yes.

Jessica Capshaw (15:39)

What? What? Why am I. What, why am I bringing that in? So it's interesting because we started with saying social media can be this incredible expression and the. And for us, it can be these moments where we can not just perform at work, or we can be in charge of a performance, or we can curate and find funny, cute little ideas that we then take on and make our own. And that is really fun. And as someone who enjoys, you know, going on for a scroll, I really love finding the humor on Instagram. I mean, I think there are some incredible.

Camilla Luddington (16:14)

Oh, my God.

Jessica Capshaw (16:14)

Comedians out there that think of things and do things in ways.

Camilla Luddington (16:17)

Oh, I think that, like, humanity is hysteric. That's what I've learned from. This is my favorite thing I've gotten from social media. Humanity is funny.

Jessica Capshaw (16:25)

Oh. And you don't have to be. You know, there isn't. Well, it doesn't feel like it to me. And the things I'm watching, it's not the funny parts for me. It has nothing to do with status. They have nothing to do with who you are. It's how you're doing it. Right. Like, you're either making someone laugh or you're not. It's not about, you know, who you were when you did it. I mean, it, it's, it's really just. And then. And then, of course, there's the animal content. And also that little tiny chef. He's so funny.

Camilla Luddington (16:56)

You love it. Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (16:57)

But I think that that's the thing that I just love, love, love. Hey, can we talk about Plan B for a second? What exactly is it?

Camilla Luddington (17:13)

Okay, Plan B is emergency contraception you take after unprotected sex. Think of it as backup birth control. It works by temporarily delaying ovulation to help prevent pregnancy before it starts.

Jessica Capshaw (17:26)

And it's available right off the shelf.

Camilla Luddington (17:28)

Yep. It's at all major retailers in all 50 US states. No prescription ID or age requirement.

Jessica Capshaw (17:36)

Ah, together we've got this.

Camilla Luddington (17:39)

Follow Plan B on Insta at plan B one step use as directed time.

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Camilla Luddington (19:52)

I think what was so interesting about the conversation we had after you were feeling this way because we had a different episode, kind of, we were thinking about a different episode being planned today is that we, it suddenly occurred to me, like, wait, I never hear about the social media anxiety for adults. Right. And I was like, let's deep dive into that because we hear about it, we've talked. I'm repeating myself. We've talked about it for the kids and, but like, oh my God, it's, it's giving adults anxiety too. And what is that look like? So we did some deep diving for this episode. And what would you guess without looking just how. What percentage of adults in the US use social media? Do you know this already?

Jessica Capshaw (20:40)

I, I read it once, but I, well, I, I did read it once and I, I remember it being around 65.

Camilla Luddington (20:45)

69.

Jessica Capshaw (20:46)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Camilla Luddington (20:47)

So that's a lot of people. And social media has been linked to obviously poor sleep, memory issues, and academic or work struggles with what I found the most interesting is this article from May 1, 2025, the Northeastern Global News. And it talked about a study in which 35,000 participants were randomly assigned to deactivate Facebook or Instagram for six weeks versus a control group. And they showed very clear significant improvements in their happiness, depression, anxiety. And deactivation was about 15% for Facebook and 22 for Instagram. And it was as effective. This blew my mind. It was as effective as average psychological interventions like CBT or mindfulness. Just deleting. Just deleting it.

Jessica Capshaw (21:42)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (21:43)

And here's what's crazy, because we're talking about adults on social media having anxiety. The benefits from deactivation were more pronounced in users over 35. And I don't know why that is. I, I. So it's not woven into our DNA in the same way that like the youth.

Jessica Capshaw (22:08)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (22:09)

Is experiencing right now?

Jessica Capshaw (22:11)

Well, we didn't grow up with the tiny screens that had.

Camilla Luddington (22:13)

We didn't grow up with the tiny screens. We didn't grow up with the tick tocks or the Instagrams. So I think that maybe it's, that maybe it frees us back to like feeling a little more old school. What's your. Because it's, that was so fascinating to me.

Jessica Capshaw (22:28)

Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I do, as a mainstay in my whole life, no matter what department you're talking about, I Do always find myself attracted to the middle, like reduction, not abstinence in pretty much anything. Yeah. And again, I would, I would say or I would report that when I use social media mindfully. And, and that means to me, you know, I don't know, cumulatively 20 to 30 minutes a day, like not more than that a day. I'm, I'm good to go. But I mean that requires discipline. That requires you putting on a timer because it can go like that. And I've done the other where I just, you know, I mean, here I am on, you know, working again and you do have downtime and if it's your lunch hour and all of a sudden, you know, but, and, and it completely has been the thing that is the, you know, it's rerouted where I go for the filling in of space. I mean I love reading and now I just carry books around because once you pick up your phone, if you start.

Camilla Luddington (23:44)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (23:44)

On one of them, it just ends up being the thing. Also because, you know, all the things that they say your phone learns you and once it knows you, it does actually give you things that are nutritive for you. So you know, I, I follow who I follow and, and, and they really. I must confuse the system because it is everything from, you know, the Claymation Tiny Chef to, you know, animal, Animal Follies and then like, you know, you know, Dr. Peter Tia and then it's Brene Brown and then it's, you know, it's. I'm so all over the place that it gives me at my news outlets, like it gives me all the things and it gives me in the bite sized morsels that we're all used, we've all grown accustomed to taking them in as. So it's hard. So I would say in a perfect world for me it's moderation, not abstinence. And so I, and that just has to be really looked after for me. Like I have to, I have to say this is how it's going today and this is how it's going tomorrow or whatever it is. Because I do know and I've already told this story a million times, but I can, if left with no restrictions, you know, absolutely convince myself after an hour of being on Instagram that everyone's life is better. Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (25:09)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (25:09)

Doing things that are way more fun, that there are parties that I wasn't invited to, that there are friendships that mean so much more than the ones I have, that we should be on a yacht.

Camilla Luddington (25:23)

Yachting.

Jessica Capshaw (25:24)

We should be yachting.

Camilla Luddington (25:25)

I don't Know why I'm doing the school run?

Jessica Capshaw (25:27)

Yes. How did you end up there? What is that like? But I mean, even, even just the, like, I remember when it first started feeling like, you know, this, this, this content is, you know, content reigns. And so you're supposed to, at every part of your life be getting the content. Which completely takes me out of being present in any moment. Right. The minute that you're filming the thing, you're not in the thing. So that's why I do. It works for me to have the moderation and then sort of like designated chunks where I'm like, this is when we're gonna grab a bunch of stuff. We're gon little fun. We're going to film it all and it's going to be in this, you know, little, this period of time and then we're going to take all of it and we're going to figure out what to do with it and which, you know, which, which trends worked, which audio worked, what makes sense. And you know, sometimes you do end up using it, sometimes you don't. And then I think that I consider it. That being said, that's, that's just my process. So I'm actually interested from our listeners because I think that this actually should be in. We haven't had, we haven't done this in a while, but I actually think this is a conversation and I think that people, I know that people are really asking themselves questions and, or struggling and maybe getting to social media being part of the struggle. And I would love to hear from people what they, how they do it and what, what works for them, do you think?

Camilla Luddington (26:53)

I'm, I'm curious. I have a couple questions for you. Do you think that there is as much pressure on women, anybody our age to post the life is perfect in comparison to like the younger generations? Because there's a part of me that almost feels like there's more in a weird way.

Jessica Capshaw (27:17)

Well, I think that's also a generational difference. I think that we were sort of grown in the era of presentation. You know, presentation dictated whether you got the job. It dictated whether you, you know, how people saw you. I mean, what your, what your image was. And now I think it's that, that images can be so different and there's actually, there's actually value in it. But that was gonna go back to this, which is that I don't, I don't feel like everything has to be perfect that we put out or that I put out. And yet when we're shooting something and I'VE already been through, like, hair and makeup. And of course I'm in this altered reality, then that's when want to make it funny, you know? Like, I just don't. Maybe that was my. Even my push pull with that particular video. Like, I didn't want anyone to think that I thought, like, okay, I am at work. I've already worked this morning and I'm already in hair and makeup. And now it's like. And now we're going. We're strutting our stuff.

Camilla Luddington (28:11)

But I think that that's. I think that's where you and I lean into. We. We always lean into the comedy of it because we. It's the exact opposite. Like, we know that we're in full glam.

Jessica Capshaw (28:21)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (28:22)

And like, it's like we have to sort of make fun of it a little bit. Right?

Jessica Capshaw (28:26)

Yes.

Camilla Luddington (28:27)

I do think. I do think what's happening on social media for our generation. And I think. I don't know where it started. Maybe it started with like the Kardashian. I don't know where it started. But the decorating, right. I listen, I'm decorating for Halloween right now. I do love it. But then I. For me, it's not really like the yacht vacations or the diamonds that I'm like, jealous over. I'm like, what do they do to their house? How do they get that.

Jessica Capshaw (28:52)

How'd they get that spider up there?

Camilla Luddington (28:54)

Everything can just. It can just be more elevated. Always, whatever you're doing, there's a more elevated version that you're going to scroll through and you're going to want to do that. Right?

Jessica Capshaw (29:03)

Yeah. The dances. Oh, my gosh, I can't. The dances, all of it. Oh, my gosh.

Camilla Luddington (29:09)

Send on your post.

Jessica Capshaw (29:11)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (29:11)

And again, it's just a social media post, but this is why anxiety is so interesting.

Jessica Capshaw (29:16)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (29:16)

Did your anxiety lift? Were you able to let it go? Or did you need to, like, see the comments to, like, see if you felt okay about it?

Jessica Capshaw (29:25)

That's been the interesting thing about what I've been experiencing lately, is that. And I'm gonna grow. I'm gonna learn. I have faith in myself. I'm gonna bet on myself here. That's where the anxiety is getting me. I'm. Because it's also. It's. It's not. It's not just happening to me. It's reported from all over, from the front lines. It's that there's a component of avoidance. So when you. Part of the perseveration, part of the asking yourself, the what if. What if. What if. What if is actually avoiding making a decision. And once you. What I'm finding is once I do make the decision and I press send, and I've really considered it, clearly, because I've just almost had.

Camilla Luddington (30:03)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (30:03)

I've almost taken myself down in the process and I've leaned on. And I've gone to. I hope, you know, I. I think smartly and I. And this is what I'm really grateful for is the people in my life and the support systems in my life so that I can go to you and know that you're going to help me. And that's the relationship piece.

Camilla Luddington (30:24)

I also give you a very real answer. If there was anything about any video, I'd be like, cut that, dude.

Jessica Capshaw (30:29)

Yes. Well, that's also the. That's. That's the trust. Right. But the trust is in the relationship. And so once I had avoided making the decision and perseverated and worried, and then you had introduced this idea that I could also in. In instead of thinking, what if the worst happens? What if I flipped it and said, what if the best happens? What if. What if this thing is also. What if this is true? What if this other thing is what's.

Camilla Luddington (30:55)

Real in this moment? Like, what are the facts? Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (30:58)

What's bigger than my worry? Then I was able to see it. And once I press send, I actually didn't have anxiety. I did not have worry. I stopped worrying about it because I made the decision.

Camilla Luddington (31:08)

So for you, is your anxiety sitting in the in between?

Jessica Capshaw (31:12)

Yes. Okay. And the avoidance and the avoidance of doing the hard thing or doing the thing, sitting in the unknown, doing the thing that you're not sure what comes next because there could be a bunch of things that come next and you're not in control of them. And I, we all wrestle with control. That's human. I definitely have had waves of wanting or feeling like having more control would keep me in. More in control. I don't think it's been like the top note of my life. That's not been my experience of me. That being said, I don't know. Throw in there that we laugh about this all the time. Like if you open up my refrigerator, it's. I'm a very organized person. Is that control? Is it not? I don't know.

Camilla Luddington (32:04)

Yeah. This is so interesting for me because we talk. I'm type B, obviously, we all know. So what does a type A person that likes to be in control about? A lot of stuff. When they bump up against anxiety, it's Just interesting hearing that experience.

Jessica Capshaw (32:19)

Yeah. Yeah. And add in that you're. I think that that's maybe that that's why I got to the what did I, what I do wrong is that I actually know. I'm very aware of it not being helpful. I'm very aware that this is not good for me. Like, and it's not often that I will choose to do the thing that I know is not good for me. And yet in this moment, I can't control it. The thought is coming, the worry is coming, and then the worrying is coming.

Camilla Luddington (32:51)

Does your ma. Does your anxiety manifest as a separate voice to you? Almost like devil on your shoulder kind of thing? Or does it take over? Because sometimes I can literally have like, I can feel the pull of like Camilla grounded in the argument with anxiety almost.

Jessica Capshaw (33:09)

Yeah. Yeah. I think that I still have an understanding of what is not right, but what is, what is true. You know, going back to your point of bringing yourself back to what is true. I think I do. And yet the what if, the idea of the future what if is so real to me that it's, it's, it's a real match. Like, it's a real, it's a real force that's reckoning with what I think is true. So I become locked and as it's. And sometimes overpowered. And it's interesting because it's really unenjoyable. Hey, can we talk about plan B for a second? What exactly is it?

Camilla Luddington (34:06)

Okay. Plan B is emergency contraception you take after unprotected sex. Think of it as backup birth control. It works by temporarily delaying ovulation to help prevent pregnancy before it starts.

Jessica Capshaw (34:19)

And it's available right off the shelf?

Camilla Luddington (34:21)

Yep. It's at all major retailers in all 50 US states. No prescription ID or age requirement.

Jessica Capshaw (34:29)

Ah, together we've got this.

Camilla Luddington (34:32)

Follow Plan B on Insta at Plan B. One step. Use as directed time for a sofa upgrade.

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Josh Clark (36:09)

Hi there, this is Josh Clark from the Stuff you Should Know podcast. If you've been thinking and man alive, I could go for some good true crime podcast episodes, then have we got good news for you. Stuff youf Should Know just released a playlist of 12 of our best true crime episodes of all time. There's a shootout in broad daylight, people using axes in really terrible ways, disappearances, legendary heists, the whole nine yards. So check out the Stuff youf Should Know True Crime Playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jessica Capshaw (36:39)

You.

Kristen Davis (36:41)

I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast Are youe a Charlotte? I'm so excited to share that I got to sit down with incredible Bridget Moynihan who plays Natasha Biggs wife. She is telling stories from the very beginning, like why she almost left the audition.

Camilla Luddington (36:59)

I'm calling my agents.

Jessica Capshaw (37:00)

I'm like guys, I have to go.

Camilla Luddington (37:01)

To the other one.

Jessica Capshaw (37:02)

And they're like stay for this. You need to.

Camilla Luddington (37:05)

I'm like can't be late for the next one.

Kristen Davis (37:06)

She shares her thoughts on the Big and Carrie affair.

Camilla Luddington (37:09)

I think I actually said out loud sometimes like, no, she was having an affair with my husband.

Kristen Davis (37:15)

Let's break this down and what it was like coming back to the show when we did and just like that.

Camilla Luddington (37:21)

I love that it's Natasha who is caring for her. Yes. I mean there really is that bond between them.

Kristen Davis (37:31)

You can't miss this. Listen to Are you a Charlotte on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever.

Jessica Capshaw (37:38)

You get your podcasts.

Camilla Luddington (37:43)

Do you think that you have anxiety later in Life. Because, you know, more.

Jessica Capshaw (37:49)

I also think I probably didn't completely represent. Like, when I say, like, I. I don't think that I walk around. I. There aren't a ton of things that worry me or make me, but absolutely. Like, when the kids were younger, like, did I run?

Camilla Luddington (38:02)

Yeah, of course. That's normal. I'm talking about what you're experiencing now.

Jessica Capshaw (38:06)

Yeah, yeah. No, I've had it before in my life. I've had it before in my life. Yeah, I have. I have. I mean, I think I just. I think that I figured out how.

Camilla Luddington (38:16)

To ride the wave of it. Yeah. Or.

Jessica Capshaw (38:19)

Or it was just not as strong. I think that it. I think it just. I think that it goes in waves. I think. I think it is your management of it. I think that it's something that we do have the ability. I want to hope that it's something that we do have the ability to work through.

Camilla Luddington (38:43)

I wonder if there's also an element of. You are part of a new show that's launching that's huge. That's so exciting. And there's an anticipation that comes with that that can sometimes manifest as anxiety.

Jessica Capshaw (38:57)

I think it's just. I mean, I think it's that whenever you're sitting in expectation.

Camilla Luddington (39:04)

Yes, yes. That's what I'm saying.

Jessica Capshaw (39:06)

When you're. I mean, whether you're. Insert the thing. Right. You're about to get married, you're about to host a big party, you're gonna have a big presentation. I mean, you have this conversation with yourself about your expectation. And I guess that's the thing is, like, there's a reasonable feeling of nervousness when you're about to.

Camilla Luddington (39:26)

Sure.

Jessica Capshaw (39:27)

Go into a scene like, how will I sound? How will this play out? Will my scene partner, you know, pick up on what I'm picking up? Will they give me something like, all the things. And that actually, I think, is fuel for perform, for doing well wherever you are, if you're in. If you're at a job, a desk job, if you're in a home job, if you're. Whatever. But again, there's this other thing that happens, and I think that recognizing what a reasonable amount of nerves looks like versus an unreasonable amount of nerves, and what I was experiencing when I called you, I actually did know was an unreasonable amount of nerves. So I could say to you, I'm having this unreasonable experience. And I just sort of. And you gave me exactly what I needed, which is what is true? Like, what is. What is true? What else is true? And also, it's you know, it's the whole name entertainment. I say it all the time because it really does help. Like, don't be afraid to say what it is. Whatever it is. Whatever. If you think it's ugly, if you think it's dark, it's just a word. Right? Like, I'm mad, I'm jealous. I'm this. I'm that name it. And it sort of does lose its umph.

Camilla Luddington (40:42)

It does. It does. I mean, I definitely do that with Matt. I definitely name it. Well, because it's there all the time. It's not there all the time. It's not there all the time. But it helps me to say, like, hey, I just need to say right now, this is how I'm feeling. It's unreasonable sometimes. I'll even. I've been doing this about health recently. I'm like, I just had a heart flutter. So in my head, I think I might be having a heart attack or an aneurysm. And I know that's crazy. And just saying it out loud and hearing the crazy helps me.

Jessica Capshaw (41:12)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (41:12)

I'm curious because obviously we don't have the same therapist. And so when you talk to your therapist about anxiety, what is something that. Is it?

Jessica Capshaw (41:24)

He.

Camilla Luddington (41:24)

She.

Jessica Capshaw (41:25)

She.

Camilla Luddington (41:26)

What is something that she tells you to do or some coping mechanism? Like, what. What is. What are your marching orders for that?

Jessica Capshaw (41:35)

It's not dissimilar. It's not dissimilar. It's wrapped in a different package, and it's a little bit more. It's very straightforward. It's the futurizing. When I futurize, when I go into the what if. When I go into the how it's going to roll out, and I start playing out a future that has not happened yet. I don't imagine I can go to a place where I don't imagine good results. And then I start to experience them as though they're true. And so the advice really is about stopping that.

Camilla Luddington (42:12)

So I'm wondering, like, what technique she gives you. Because for me, I'm someone that, like, needs a technique. So, like, the. What else is true makes me spit out the facts of the situation. I'm wondering if there's something. Because I know that I'm futurizing. I know that I'm doing that.

Jessica Capshaw (42:26)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (42:27)

But I need, like, the interrupter, the.

Jessica Capshaw (42:29)

Like, the technique out of it. The way that you need the door on the handle that get me out of here.

Camilla Luddington (42:34)

And that really helps me. Right, right. Because then I'm forced to say the things.

Jessica Capshaw (42:38)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (42:38)

I'm wondering if she has.

Jessica Capshaw (42:40)

I mean, I. I've done. It's been a bunch of different things, and I think it's been very much like, you know, trial by error. And again, this is sort of a newish. Yeah. Moment. So I actually thank you for helping me put something on my to do list for this week's therapy. But it's, you know, so far it's been. I guess it started off as. And now it sits in. What do I do when I go to the what ifs and go to the future and how. How do I interrupt that cycle and what is. And I think that it's. It's. It's. It helps to have, like, a little bit of a mantra. I also am very curious. I've. I have never felt successful at meditation. Have you ever tried it?

Camilla Luddington (43:22)

No.

Jessica Capshaw (43:23)

I feel like. I feel not good at it. And I.

Camilla Luddington (43:25)

You know what? I can't say that I've tried it. I can't say that I really. I think I probably tried it twice in my life. But, like, I. I truly don't know how. You silence your mind.

Jessica Capshaw (43:36)

Yes, that's.

Camilla Luddington (43:36)

I don't know how it happens because I'm thinking of all the things.

Jessica Capshaw (43:40)

Yes.

Camilla Luddington (43:41)

So there's no meditating. I'm just sitting still.

Jessica Capshaw (43:44)

Well, but I think that's part of it. I was asking Chad about it last night, actually.

Camilla Luddington (43:48)

Tell me, tell me.

Jessica Capshaw (43:49)

Yeah, well, I mean, you're picking, you know. Well, you also have to pick your. Which. Which kind of meditation are you going to focus on? And then there are teachers. But yes, it is the. It's. Your mind gets busy. And there are ways of thinking about meditating where you. You acknowledge that. I don't think that anyone who meditates says yes. And I sit on my pillow and I instantly fall into my meditative state. At least not in the beginning, is my understanding. So I think you have to work on it. And I do think, you know, the numbers can't be wrong.

Camilla Luddington (44:25)

I. I would find it very hard to meditate my way out of anxiety. I'm.

Jessica Capshaw (44:32)

I'm telling myself that story, too. I'm not sure how that works. I believe. I believe people when they say it does.

Camilla Luddington (44:38)

I believe it can work. I just. I'm not sure the voice is so loud for me.

Jessica Capshaw (44:44)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (44:44)

Yeah, the voice is so loud for me.

Jessica Capshaw (44:46)

Wait. I wanted to not take a U turn, but just take a little side route because I want to go back to social for a second. So you. So Instagram would be kind of where the only One that I've let into my real, like, rotation. You love Tick Tock.

Camilla Luddington (45:00)

I. Here's why I like TikTok. And I, and I rarely really scroll Instagram. I'm very rarely on Instagram. I love posting on there, but it's just TikTok feels like all the things that I watch have absolutely nothing to do with me. They're not remotely in my world. So I love it. Well, I love like the ones where it's like, hey, I'm a mom of five kids and here's what I'm making for dinner real quick.

Jessica Capshaw (45:29)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (45:29)

And it's like, you know, I'm just like, so fascinated with like, okay, five ingredients. She's gonna put together this thing because I can't cook. So what is that? So I actually love it because I feel like it's less of a slice of like Los Angeles or the entertainment industry or our world and more just maybe people living their lives and putting it off. There's something, I'm just. I don't know what it is. I can't describe it, but I, I like it better. I'm sure that's what the algorithm feeds me. Obviously your experience would be totally different, but I feel like Instagram feels a little more shiny and curated than Tick Tock.

Jessica Capshaw (46:09)

Yes. Yes, for sure.

Camilla Luddington (46:11)

I do think it's worse though, because I think I can, I can spend way more time on Tick Tock.

Jessica Capshaw (46:16)

Well, that's what they're trying to do, aren't they? I don't know who they are, but it's them.

Camilla Luddington (46:20)

It does not give me anxiety, though. Instagram. Instagram is the. I've gone on vacation and I'm in Paris, France. Wherever I'm in can. You know, it's like. And then all the actors and their makeups and I'm like, well, why isn't my. Maybe do I need to go blonde? Do I need bangs? It's like, you know, I'm. Although I feel like there's a more superficial element to it when I'm scrolling through that makes me think like, I don't know, it just. I prefer the TikToks.

Jessica Capshaw (46:49)

All right, well, this is one where I really do. I'm, I'm, I'm committed to it. I want to know how social media is living in all of your all's lives. If you're, if you're interested in sharing.

Camilla Luddington (47:02)

Yeah, I, I would. I, I feel like I want to do a follow up episode with everybody because we, we are always hearing about what it does to the youth. But like what is it doing to the moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas and everybody else?

Jessica Capshaw (47:16)

Yes. And what are the answers to these questions? What are you interested in trying? Are you interested in, you know, quitting cold turkey and do you wish you didn't have it and do you delete it often? I know people who do that all the time. That, that will delete it for a month and then they kind of come back to it.

Camilla Luddington (47:31)

I've taken it off my phone. I took X off my phone and I never put it back on. Yeah, that's why I'm not on there. X X X really gave me a lot of anxiety. It was way too.

Jessica Capshaw (47:41)

Do you have mostly news outlets?

Camilla Luddington (47:43)

Yeah, it was just a lot of. It was just a lot. I think I felt like there was a lot of aggression on there and I'm sure you can find it on any app, but it just felt like a lot to me. I will say what's tricky for us a little bit as people in the entertainment industry is it feels like you have to be on there.

Jessica Capshaw (48:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Camilla Luddington (48:04)

And it's, it's really a non negotiable for part of your job.

Jessica Capshaw (48:09)

Yes. Well, I mean I feel that way about launching this show next week, 9:00pm on ABC.

Camilla Luddington (48:16)

Yeah, yeah, you do.

Jessica Capshaw (48:17)

911 Nashville. But it feels like. Yeah, it feels like part of the job.

Camilla Luddington (48:21)

Of course it's. And I think it started off with ABC tgit. You know, Scandal was, they were the ones that really.

Jessica Capshaw (48:28)

Kerry Washington, she was so great at it. She made it feel joyous. It was smart, it was tight.

Camilla Luddington (48:35)

It was also a different time that where it feel joyous and now it feels, it's, it's.

Jessica Capshaw (48:40)

I think that that might have been part of my, the, my existential crisis. It was. I really actually only want to, I can say this with total authority. I only want to put, put things on social media that feel like are either are on some level a pathway to joy. Like whether you're laughing at me or yeah, you're laughing with me, I want.

Camilla Luddington (49:04)

It to be joyous.

Jessica Capshaw (49:05)

I want it to be, hey, come look at this other thing. That's, that's the only way that I see it. So I sort of definitely, I don't sort of definitely I reject the idea that you. That one should use social media for aggression or any kind of unkindness.

Camilla Luddington (49:24)

No, but I think back in like the TGIT time it was more like, hey, for the first time ever, we can not like, you know, get stopped on the street. By fans. Like, we can just, like, we can interact with fans as the show's airing. Like, how amazing, right?

Jessica Capshaw (49:39)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (49:39)

With the live tweeting. And then I think all the other things have sort of taken over. Right. And muddied the walls.

Jessica Capshaw (49:46)

I loved live tweeting. I actually really did.

Camilla Luddington (49:49)

I loved live tweeting.

Jessica Capshaw (49:50)

What would be the Instagram version of life watching live?

Camilla Luddington (49:54)

Well, I get. I mean, there probably is some version threads, I guess, but I. I don't have X though. I can't do it. You guys can't do it.

Jessica Capshaw (50:05)

Well, I think this is a conversation to be continued. I. I think that it affects us all differently. I do think that we can all. I mean, you did, you helped me, so I hope that we can all help each other in it. And, you know, I don't know. You don't all have to look at it the way that I do, but I do think that we're living in a time where the path to joy seems like. Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (50:27)

One of the reasons why I wanted to do this episode today is because I do think the impression always is, is that like, you're in the industry, you're an actor. Like, obviously you're like, bam. Posted like, you know, and you're not.

Jessica Capshaw (50:41)

Not.

Camilla Luddington (50:41)

You're not ever second guessing and you're not ever really, like, you know, oh my God. You're not getting anxiety from like hitting send or on something. And it happens to all of us. Yeah, Champagne problems. But like, these things are really honestly causing people anxiety. I mean, there are studies on it. So, yeah, I do want to hear more from everybody.

Jessica Capshaw (51:03)

And again, as you pointed out, if it's happening to adults, imagine what it's happening.

Camilla Luddington (51:07)

No, I know.

Jessica Capshaw (51:08)

You know, adolescent brains that really don't have the tools to phone the friend, to self talk, to look for support. I mean, and these are oftentimes adolescents that are living in homes that are full of love and in communities that are full of love. But then they can go on and have this like split second, full body, full mind response to this tiny little post that it makes them feel like that post means more than all the love and all the support in their.

Camilla Luddington (51:46)

Lives or the reality of what's around them. The little thing that you're holding in your hand.

Jessica Capshaw (51:51)

Yes.

Camilla Luddington (51:51)

Takes over too much from, like the actual reality around you that you're living. Yeah. This is one of those episodes where we just really wanted to be like, hey, this is sort of what's been going on this week with us.

Jessica Capshaw (52:02)

Yeah, it has.

Camilla Luddington (52:03)

This is where we're at. This is. These are the conversations we're having.

Jessica Capshaw (52:05)

No joke. I. You. You really helped a sister out of a jam.

Camilla Luddington (52:10)

Listen, if you got anxiety, you know.

Jessica Capshaw (52:13)

Who to call, but you did not to minimize. And I understand it is not. It's. But. Yes. And by the way, of course, so do I. These are not. These are not grave problems. These are. These are the.

Camilla Luddington (52:27)

But I think these are the things that are triggering people all the time, is the point.

Jessica Capshaw (52:31)

They're the things that happen in between our ears that we.

Camilla Luddington (52:33)

And that's what's shocking because you're like, they're.

Jessica Capshaw (52:35)

There's.

Camilla Luddington (52:35)

There's not an earthquake. But my body feels like there's an earthquake.

Jessica Capshaw (52:39)

It feels like there's an earthquake. And then think about. This is where I think you do get into how the domino effect, you know, or what happens in the domino effect, is that that state of mind goes out into the world and it's contagious. Right. Like, that person has been made worried and worrying, and they're no longer in their state of path to joy, and they're going out and they're the person that's, like, cutting you off on the highway. They're the person that's stepping on your foot and not saying sorry. They're the person that's not holding the door. I'm obviously making all this up, but I just. I think there's a connection.

Camilla Luddington (53:14)

No, I think you're absolutely right.

Jessica Capshaw (53:17)

Yeah.

Camilla Luddington (53:17)

It manifests into, like, the energy of your day, and then that affects the next person. That affects the next person. And there's a cumulative effect for sure.

Jessica Capshaw (53:25)

Yes.

Camilla Luddington (53:26)

All right, we want to hear from you. This is a to be continued tbc.

Jessica Capshaw (53:30)

All right, well, let's call it the end of the episode. Hey, can we talk about plan B for a second? What exactly is it?

Camilla Luddington (53:49)

Okay. Plan B is emergency contraception you take after unprotected sex. Think of it as backup birth control. It works by temporarily delaying ovulation to help prevent pregnancy before it starts.

Jessica Capshaw (54:02)

And it's available right off the shelf.

Camilla Luddington (54:05)

Yep. It's at all major retailers in all 50 US states. No prescription ID or age requirement.

Jessica Capshaw (54:12)

Ah. Together we've got this.

Camilla Luddington (54:15)

Follow Plan B on Insta at Plan B. One step. Use as directed.

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Jessica Capshaw (55:05)

Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us.

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Camilla Luddington (55:52)

This is an I Heart podcast.