Camille Ludington (2:35)

Call it. It's a very special one.

Jessica Capshaw (2:38)

It's a super duper.

Camille Ludington (2:41)

Yeah, yeah, I feel like, I mean, I don't. I don't want to jinx stuff, but, you know, I feel like it's just one of those ones where you're like, slam dunk at the start.

Kim Raver (2:49)

Absolutely.

Jessica Capshaw (2:50)

Well, also, we should preface this as ask and we shall deliver. And this guest has been asked for since we. Since the beginning of the podcast.

Kim Raver (3:00)

Really?

Camille Ludington (3:01)

So we should start it with you're welcome.

Jessica Capshaw (3:03)

You're welcome, everybody.

Camille Ludington (3:04)

You're welcome, everyone. This is. You're welcome. Today on the podcast, we have none other than Kim.

Jessica Capshaw (3:12)

Kim Raver.

Camille Ludington (3:14)

I can rave about you for days.

Kim Raver (3:17)

Oh, my God. I'm so happy to be here, you guys. You're fucking rock stars. Am I allowed to. First of all, am I allowed to swear?

Jessica Capshaw (3:23)

Yes, you swear all the time.

Camille Ludington (3:24)

Yeah.

Kim Raver (3:24)

It's so impressive what you guys are doing, and I'm so excited to be here with the two of you. I mean, it's a great, It's a, It's a great. It's just really. It's a hard thing to do to sort of get yourself going with a second job while you're doing a full time job. And I think it's just a huge sort of advocation for women, which is very much who the two of you are. So.

Jessica Capshaw (3:45)

I love you.

Kim Raver (3:46)

I love you.

Camille Ludington (3:47)

Oh, my gosh. I have a. I have a permanent smile on my face right now. My face kind of hurts from smiling and goosebumps from you saying that. And that is so exactly what I think that you would say and who I know you to be and who I believe you to be. And I just. You started talking, and I got immediately transported to something I didn't know that was coming in my brain, which was that when you came to graze, I was so excited, like, I was so excited to have you as a friend. And, you know, when you start to work with people, you, you know you're gonna work. So you have that first layer of like, oh, my gosh, are we gonna work together? And is that gon. And then you have this total bonus layer, which is that you enjoy the person. And I just so immediately enjoyed you. And I just remember truly us finding ways to, like, could we go to an exercise class? Could we go on a walk together? Could we. And then we had kids around the same age. And I just remember having so many other parts of our lives that we would share with each other, which was so great outside of work, but then also at work and, and having a shorthand about when one of us speaking of, you know, being women and advocating for each other is that no matter what we do, whether we're, whether outside of work, we're partners or we're parents or whatever, we have other responsibilities while we're at work. So we're actually, we're wearing so many different hats. And it was so great to be in conversation and relationship with someone who was, you know, similarly going through things so that when you would be like, I don't even have words to say why I'm leaving this conversation for a second, it was like, you immediately give grace. You're like, go, go, go.

Kim Raver (5:23)

And it would be, you Were. You were amazing. I mean, that's also another. You are so welcoming and so just like, let's dive in together. And to be able to come to a huge show, you know, it was really. It was a. It was. I mean, now too, but at that time, it was this, you know, it was sort of this new phenomenon. And it's funny because I had come from 24, just sort of so male dominated and so to kind of walk on the set and be embraced by so many amazing women. And you were so just effusive and inclusive and straightforward and such an amazing, again, like, advocate. I'm just. I love the two of you so much because to be on set and to be in this business and know that there's. There's women who have your back and who also. What I love is you guys are just so like, here it is. Here is what's happening. Let's do this. Let's be friends. Let's. And we. And it's true, we were juggling our kids. I mean, things from, like, swim lessons. And you're such an amazing, knowledgeable. We always talk about. We're like, oh, if we don't know the answer to something, we're like, oh, well, Jessica. We're like, Jessica will know. And, you know, it sounds like a simple thing, but when you're juggling full time, you know, working mom and then you have another mom who is reaching out and saying, come, I've got you. Let's, you know, let's be friends on set. And I think that that's also a really beautiful thing because it's teaching. We are teaching. And I hope. And this is what I've been trying to sort of like, you know, learn, because you see sort of how women interact with one another and to be able to have. I hear a lot of my friends who have younger women, maybe like 14, and sort of the culture of that. And I have two boys, so it's a different culture, different sort of scenario. And you two are really great examples of supportive, inclusive, and how to sort of let the light shine on others around you. Cause you know that by lifting up others, it only brings light to just sort of the whole group. So when. When I first came on you, I remember specifically, you were like, okay, we're in. Let's go. Which was also really great because I felt like that also informed a really fun thing for us on set, which also, like, what's so great about. I think our thing is we have like, some really opposite stuff. Like just now when we were setting up and they handed me, like, the earbuds. And I was like, oh, thank you. Because then we kind of switched places. I was like. And I didn't want to say, am I. Are these someone else's? Am I putting them in my ears? And she's like, yeah, it's fine. I'm putting them in. And then luckily, one of the producers was like, oh, no, we cleaned them. And I was like, oh, okay. But I didn't want to, like, say anything. I didn't want to be a problem. And, well, she's like, I'm so type B. And I'm like, I'm so type A.

Jessica Capshaw (8:29)

I just shove those.

Kim Raver (8:30)

I give them a little lick and put them in.

Camille Ludington (8:32)

Yeah, yeah, of course you did. Well, now you're reminding me that also the listeners always know more than I do. Kim. I don't remember all the things. I just don't. I can't. I make room for what I.

Jessica Capshaw (8:42)

Wait, can I just interrupt real quick before you get into this? Because I've been sitting here listening to how welcoming Jessica was.

Camille Ludington (8:51)

Now, I knew you were going to do this started.

Jessica Capshaw (8:53)

Can you let it be? Instantly just loved you. And I just. But I just. All I'm saying is, is that would have been nice.

Camille Ludington (9:03)

You know what? Look at where we ended up.

Kim Raver (9:05)

Why are you focusing?

Jessica Capshaw (9:06)

I'm just saying.

Kim Raver (9:07)

Are you. Are you.

Jessica Capshaw (9:08)

I.

Kim Raver (9:08)

Are you pulling up our story or are pulling up, like, what's your. What's our. Our story or our story.

Jessica Capshaw (9:15)

No, our. I don't even know how we made.

Kim Raver (9:16)

I don't even.

Jessica Capshaw (9:17)

I don't either.

Camille Ludington (9:18)

Remember being friends forever.

Kim Raver (9:20)

How can. Me too.

Camille Ludington (9:21)

That's.

Kim Raver (9:21)

Well, maybe it was through this one. That one.

Jessica Capshaw (9:24)

No, it's not because she had left.

Kim Raver (9:26)

I think you guys have told me this story.

Camille Ludington (9:28)

We didn't like each other.

Jessica Capshaw (9:29)

We didn't like each other.

Kim Raver (9:29)

Yeah, but isn't that what's so incredible? Like, that's. No, but I'm just. No, I'm just laughing because of jazz. No, but I feel like that also speaks volumes to who you guys are and that I've learned from you guys. When I talk about, like, women culture and, like, seeing it with my. My kids friends, you know, in sixth, seventh, eighth grade or whatever that is. And then how that expands out into adult female culture. You guys have this incredible capacity to. If you hit a roadblock, to then address it and say, I wanna be better. I want that to be better. I want. And I don't know what your reasoning for getting through the Mortal Kombat or whatever the meeting you said it was. But, like, I mean, I think that that is really interesting for me. You know what I mean? For me, sometimes it's like, I get so. It's like a glitch happens to. And it's hard to voice the problem. And that's been another thing, I think, as I'm getting older, which I think is so. I'm so grateful for that. I'm like, such a gift. I'm not like, oh, it's out, right? It used to be kind of like, out just for a safety. Like, what's the. Pull the rip cord. Now I feel like, oh, there's a glitch. I respect you. I admire you. I might not see or do business the way you do, but let's talk about it. So that also is, like, kudos to you.

Jessica Capshaw (11:06)

No, but this is. This is actually why I have this friendship with both of you that I value so much, is that I think why this happened between Jess and I, why we are where we at. Where we're at, is because we're always so honest with each other. Like, if I piss her off or she pissed me off, it hasn't really happened. I mean, we've been. I don't think it's happened, really, honestly. But also.

Kim Raver (11:28)

Okay, if it does happen, she would say.

Jessica Capshaw (11:30)

But I know she.

Camille Ludington (11:31)

I feel like that's why we have. We're like, if it's. We see it coming. Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (11:34)

I just think that we would. You'd be like, shut up. You're being annoying.

Camille Ludington (11:38)

I just.

Jessica Capshaw (11:38)

We're walking over here, and I have the same relationship with you, and it makes friendship so much easier.

Kim Raver (11:44)

Yes. Because I don't have to sec.

Jessica Capshaw (11:46)

I. I don't have to second guess, like, what you're thinking. If you're mad at me, I know you're gonna be like, camilla, you're driving me nuts right now. Shut up.

Kim Raver (11:52)

I love that we have this deep friendship and we can be totally different in moments. And I learn from. I learn from that. And I think that that's also really cool that I. I don't have to either see the world or I don't know. And you're just so unbelievably, like, unabashedly straightforward, and sometimes I'm a little bit more private. And I love that you're like, ah, it's this or it's that or, oh.

Camille Ludington (12:22)

Like, are you also a recovering people pleaser? Oh, is that where it comes from?

Jessica Capshaw (12:26)

Oh, Jess has talked about this.

Kim Raver (12:27)

Oh, yeah.

Camille Ludington (12:29)

Sorry. I mean, I could Also said, are you people.

Kim Raver (12:31)

No, no, I'm better at it. I'm much better at it.

Camille Ludington (12:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kim Raver (12:36)

I'm much better at it because I.

Camille Ludington (12:38)

Remember I'm thinking about moments. I don't want to be obtuse because I actually think that when we have these conversations, it's almost better if we're specific. I remember a couple times on set, you know, like. Like I said earlier, we became fast friends. And then I remember there would be moments on set where, I mean, you. Everyone, you have to understand, we're working these jobs, we're raising these kids. We've got responsibilities much like all of you. Right?

Kim Raver (13:01)

It's.

Camille Ludington (13:01)

We're. We're all just doing all the best. That. And I remember there would be times where, because we became best friends, that we were in a world that was. That preceded us. And on some level, even though I had been. I got. I was there before you. I sort of. And I've talked about this before, I kind of. I always felt new. Like, even until I left, I felt new on some level because I wasn't the original cast. Right. And I remember having a shorthand with you where I would give you an eye and you would give me an eye, or one of our eyes would water up and the other one would see it and be like. Like, we would find ways to minister to each other in the covering of the people. Pleasing, like, yeah, of course I can do it.

Kim Raver (13:43)

Right.

Camille Ludington (13:43)

Yeah. I can take that forced call or I can do that scene that I am having a hard time with doing or that that person, that that actor can act like that, you know, in the middle of a scene, and we're just gonna keep going and, like, keep swimming. Keep swimming. Because we're like, can do people. And. And I remember having that being a big piece of our friendship was that I could. I could look at you and sort of see a due north and be like, is this right? Does this feel right? And you would look at me and be like, yeah, it's okay. We're going to keep going. Or I'd look at you and you'd be like, I don't think this is right. What do we need to do? Are we taking a hard left? Are we taking a hard right? Are we talking? Are there any parents in the room?

Kim Raver (14:26)

No, completely. But I also think it's interesting also, even in the moments that you're sort of talking about, you know, when you're under stress and there's a lot going on and we don't know whether you've been up all night with the kids because one has the flu or, you know, and then you're coming in and you've got like, you know, two page monologue and the stress of that and just also where we've given one another and I think, you know, grace and communicated through it, like, oh, we just had a moment that was a really hard moment. If I am like wanting to people please, then I would keep my mouth shut. But I think we need to work through this in order to deepen a friendship. And I think that that's also okay. I don't think growing up, I felt that that was sort of a, an option. I mean, and I know. Also allowed. You know what I mean? It's not. Yeah, it's not allowed. Also, you know, just also speaking up. I mean, there's, it's interesting because. Right. I feel like there's a combination of like, people pleaser. But then also, like, I have my ideas and I'm like gonna, you know, I'm taking, I'm going with them and you know, stubborn and type A. And I don't even, it's funny. I've never even said I'm type A, but I guess I am, right? Am I? I feel like you're type A. I think. Yeah. She's someone's. The producers are laughing because I was like, can we clean these earbuds?

Jessica Capshaw (15:53)

Yeah.

Kim Raver (15:53)

Whose ears have these been in?

Camille Ludington (15:55)

Right.

Jessica Capshaw (15:56)

I think her. Type A. Yeah. I don't think you're type B.

Kim Raver (15:58)

No, you're type B.

Jessica Capshaw (16:01)

Are you kidding?

Camille Ludington (16:02)

Are you kidding? She's a slo.

Jessica Capshaw (16:05)

When do you pack for a flight?

Kim Raver (16:06)

That's how I know it all depends. Because I'm a super multitasker. Like, I, I, if I have to, I can. It's also my boarding school days where I could literally. You could tell me. No.

Jessica Capshaw (16:15)

What is your preference?

Kim Raver (16:17)

Oh, beforehand?

Jessica Capshaw (16:18)

Oh, no, I, I pack an hour before a flight.

Camille Ludington (16:22)

She's literally packing while in the car.

Jessica Capshaw (16:25)

Yeah, yeah, I'm packing.

Camille Ludington (16:26)

Making sure it all fits.

Kim Raver (16:27)

I love when she, when we had to go do breaths or something somewhere and I had like a carry on and you had literally it was like.

Camille Ludington (16:35)

Did Kim K's trunk.

Kim Raver (16:36)

Yes. Yeah, it was like you were wheeling behind you. Like.

Jessica Capshaw (16:39)

Because the problem is that when you, when you do pack last minute, you pack everything just in case.

Camille Ludington (16:44)

Right?

Kim Raver (16:44)

Just in case.

Camille Ludington (16:44)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (16:45)

That's because you're not thinking, by the way.

Kim Raver (16:46)

I like to scream. Kim.

Camille Ludington (16:47)

I was with her one time and when I went into her room, I was like, did you Bring your house slippers.

Kim Raver (16:54)

Yeah.

Camille Ludington (16:54)

On this three day trip.

Jessica Capshaw (16:55)

Yeah.

Camille Ludington (16:56)

She was like, yeah, everything. Your house slippers. Interesting. Okay.

Kim Raver (17:02)

First of all, who wait, house slippers? What are you guys from the 1950s?

Camille Ludington (17:06)

There were. Yes.

Jessica Capshaw (17:07)

Yeah.

Camille Ludington (17:07)

Well, they look like they were from the 1950s.

Jessica Capshaw (17:09)

I have cozy slippers that I like to wear and then.

Camille Ludington (17:13)

But I did bring what they look like to me.

Kim Raver (17:15)

How's Jessica? Just.

Jessica Capshaw (17:16)

You're winding me up.

Camille Ludington (17:26)

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Camille Ludington (17:40)

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Jessica Capshaw (17:54)

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Jessica Capshaw (18:57)

Okay. Plan B is emergency contraception you take after unprotected sex. Think of it as backup birth control. It works by temporarily delaying ovulation to help prevent pregnancy before it starts.

Camille Ludington (19:11)

And it's available right off the shelf?

Jessica Capshaw (19:13)

Yep. It's at all major retailers in all 50 US states. No prescription ID or age requirement.

Kim Raver (19:20)

Ah.

Camille Ludington (19:21)

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Jessica Capshaw (20:35)

Did you know when you were cast the character you were cast as, like, what you were being cast for and the love interest of it all and the complication of it all?

Kim Raver (20:45)

I remember meeting Shonda and Betsy. You know, it's interesting because when I was doing 24 and Grey's, this is, this is gonna sound like a. I'm dropping stuff, but it's just part of both shows were like for two years, were nominated for Emmys, Golden Globes, sag. And so our table, we were always sitting next to Grey's. So. And it was always kind of like this flip flop. So one day we crossed paths and we had a whole conversation and.

Jessica Capshaw (21:21)

You and Shonda and Betsy.

Kim Raver (21:23)

Yes.

Jessica Capshaw (21:23)

Okay.

Kim Raver (21:24)

It was like an amazing, you know, I was like, oh, you guys, you know, I hope you win. They were like, it was sort of like this wonderful, incredible. And I was a huge fan of the show. I just thought it was such an incredible show. But at the time I had a job and so I didn't imagine what that would be. But I just know that they called me in. There was this amazing role to be with again with Owen hunt, with Kevin McKidd. And I kind of came in for a meeting with Kevin and Betsy and Shonda and I remember sort of talking it through. Interesting.

Jessica Capshaw (22:04)

Oh, so Kevin was there?

Kim Raver (22:06)

Yeah, no, not. Not at the. Not at the awards in this meeting. And it was sort of like how it's how. So I knew that. I knew that it had to sort of do with that. I knew that my.

Jessica Capshaw (22:18)

We notoriously do not have chemistry reads on our show.

Camille Ludington (22:20)

Yeah. I was gonna say they kind of.

Jessica Capshaw (22:22)

Just sit and watch usually and see like if it's there or not. So this is so cool.

Kim Raver (22:26)

This was like, this was a meeting and we were just sort of talking and sort of, I guess it was a chemistry meeting.

Camille Ludington (22:34)

So did you like him right away? I mean. Cause we've been honest about the fact that obviously you like him now, but, like, did you like him right away?

Kim Raver (22:40)

Yeah, there was a real ease. It was just the whole room. The whole room was. It was. I just thought, oh, wow, this is really special. And then I knew because at the time, Sandra. Oh. And Kevin McKidd's characters were together, so I knew that I was kind of coming in that we had, you know, been in Iraq together, so I didn't know the complication of it. And then there was that hilarious storyline of the brilliant, you know, Shonda Rhimes of where Teddi was coming in as a gift because she was a cardiothoracic, you know, Isn't he.

Jessica Capshaw (23:22)

Christina for Christina?

Kim Raver (23:23)

So. No, no. Owen brings. I am the give for Christina. For Christina. But in my job. Right. So. Yeah. And my first scene was with Sara, Eric, Dane, and Kevin. Yeah, I think that was it. In the cafeteria. Yeah.

Camille Ludington (23:45)

I just remember being in one of the earlier scenes with you, and I do remember that you and I and Eric, Dane and Sara were together.

Kim Raver (23:52)

Yeah, that was another scene, I think, in the beginning. I think that was another scene. Yeah.

Camille Ludington (23:56)

But they put our characters together a bit because my character instantly was like. I think she was probably just like, really, really. I mean, really, really, really excited that you were there. And she was like, you're gonna be my friend. You're gonna be my person. We're gonna be people.

Kim Raver (24:09)

Which was so great. That was such a great, fun thing. And it. And what's funny about ours? We've talked about it. Our relationship on Grey's is. It's such, like, the odd couple.

Jessica Capshaw (24:22)

Oh, she's talking about me. Me and Kim. We're listeners right now. It's me.

Kim Raver (24:25)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. So. Which is a really.

Jessica Capshaw (24:30)

Yes.

Kim Raver (24:30)

Which is just a really fun dynamic, because I don't think you usually see that on, do you? I mean, I guess you do, but I was trying to think of what.

Jessica Capshaw (24:39)

Other friends I wish we could tease. What we're. We're thinking specifically of some of the stuff we've done this season that we can't tease right now. But we. You see more of, like, the Odd Couple dynamic of Joe and Kim, and it just, like, works. We're always. The truth is. Is you guys listening? We're always texting Meg, saying, our showrunner, we have a new pitch for, like, a storyline. It's always Joe and. And. And Teddy together for Something. Listen, it is happening this season.

Camille Ludington (25:07)

I love that.

Kim Raver (25:07)

It's really. Well, I. I wonder whether it's because we had this really great scene in Joe's bar and we. Oh, my God, stop laughing.

Jessica Capshaw (25:17)

We couldn't stop laughing.

Kim Raver (25:18)

It was. This happened.

Jessica Capshaw (25:19)

We got flagged.

Kim Raver (25:21)

We got flagged. They were like, no, never put these two together because we'll never get. And then we promise them. We're like. We swear we will get through this scene.

Jessica Capshaw (25:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did.

Kim Raver (25:31)

We did.

Jessica Capshaw (25:31)

I did laugh a little bit.

Kim Raver (25:33)

Scenes all together.

Jessica Capshaw (25:34)

But I was good. I was good.

Camille Ludington (25:37)

I remember that while you came in as a gift for. Well, you came in because you were friends with McKidd, so you had your chemistry read with McKidd. That makes sense to me. But I actually remember you having a very strong. I remember loving the story between you and Christina.

Kim Raver (25:53)

Oh, yeah, I loved that. It was almost like they had written it.

Camille Ludington (25:56)

Talk about badassery. I mean, that was next level. Show me. Don't tell me.

Kim Raver (26:03)

Awesomeness. Which also is incredible because a lot of times it's about sort of the sexual relationship. Right? Like, that's that in a lot of shows and our show. What was so incredible about this relationship and this dynamic was this amazing mentorship between two women and Christina's absolute commitment and passion towards being the most incredible surgeon at any expense, which I think is such a great storyline. And again, you know, Shonda Rhimes and Betsy Beers and Shonda Lynn. What a beautiful way to again, like, show and not tell a story of women's absolute passion for what they do and to be able to be at the top of their game and want to be the top of their game.

Camille Ludington (27:03)

And challenge each other. And you would. I remember you too. Like, you would be each other's red team. You were always the one who kind of knew more. So.

Kim Raver (27:13)

But.

Camille Ludington (27:13)

But she could take it from you and. And you could. I mean, that's the thing I think we keep going back to, right. Whether we're talking about our personal relationships or we're talking about these characters, is that it's really. It's. It's a great recipe for success. To understand. We were talking about this a couple episodes which we were talking at vis a vis radical acceptance. But we were saying pain is inevitable. The suffering part is optional. So you're going to be in friendship, you're going to get in arguments and it's going to be painful. But, like, suffering in it is optional. You can go to the person and say, I up. You know what I did this thing. I actually didn't mean to or you know what I did. This thing. I actually really meant to. I don't know what happened. I saw something. I saw red. I didn't. My thinking brain went offline. I don't know what to tell you, but it was a mistake, and I'm so sorry. And I'm sorry that it affected you, and I'm just. Sorry. Can we, like, start over? Or can we reset or can you please forgive me or. And the accountability and then. And then that's real relationship. And I saw that very much in the. I. I saw that in the Teddy and Christina friendship. I mean, it definitely was. I mean, you were. I always remember you being senior in it, but I. I loved that friction. I love.

Kim Raver (28:24)

I think I was senior because of just the dynamic I was in. Attending. She was. Yeah.

Camille Ludington (28:29)

No, that's what I'm saying. You were senior, but you would still fight. She would still.

Kim Raver (28:32)

Yes.

Camille Ludington (28:33)

Like, we talk a lot about. I never grew up with people who fought in a healthy way.

Kim Raver (28:37)

Right.

Camille Ludington (28:37)

I grew up with people who fought and they got mad, and then they left, or they got mad, and then they got silent, or they got mad and they fill in the blank. But it was never healthy. Anger. And it's so interesting because when I see my kids fight, I want to go, just make up. Just makeup. Just make up. And I've realized that I need to adjust. I need to adjust. I need to say, you know what? You're gonna fight, so fight. Well, right? Like, what do you really mean? What really hurt? How do you. How could you make it up to.

Kim Raver (29:12)

Her that there's not punishment in expressing yourself or that there's not punishment in. I think what I'm hearing you say, which I think is really an interesting thing, is that there is going to be friction throughout a long sort of existing, deep relationship or friendship. And it's. How are you in those moments? And who are you? And do you have grace also? I think sometimes when you can see that the other person is doing something that might be hurtful or this or that, but having grace because you've been through that, so you understand that and that you can then, you know, find forgiveness. I think that that's a really. Yeah. That is a really beautiful dynamic and an interesting growth thing.

Camille Ludington (30:16)

Forgiveness is really hard.

Kim Raver (30:18)

Mm.

Camille Ludington (30:19)

I think forgiveness is really, really, really, really hard. And I think that it's like true forgiveness. I think that you can say, I forgive you, and. And sometimes actually just saying it will get you there. But I think true, like, Deep forgiveness is really hard to get to. And I think that. And I think that it brings up actually something Camilla was starting to talk to you about, and I said, stop. Don't ask her the question.

Jessica Capshaw (30:40)

My first question for you is, when you look at Teddy's, your experience with Teddi, do you see it in two parts or right now, to you, is it one long Jo.

Kim Raver (30:49)

It's one long journey.

Jessica Capshaw (30:51)

Interesting. Okay.

Kim Raver (30:52)

That's, to me, what's so incredible and really an anomaly of this show. There is. I don't think there is very, very few shows where an actor or a creator has the opportunity to follow through on a life journey. Especially now, if you look at television, you know, there are seven episodes, 10 episodes, limited series, three years of a series, but that's only 10 episodes. I mean, in my experience of television, and when I was first starting, there was usually like, 24 episodes. But to get to a 24 episode for several years also was an anomaly. So to have a show that has gone on for 22 years and, you know, it's fluctuated between 24 episodes, 26 to, you know, 18 to whatever that is, but you're still telling the story over a period of that amount of time. So for me, like, Teddy's life was still continuous even when she wasn't present on the show.

Jessica Capshaw (32:12)

Yeah.

Kim Raver (32:12)

You know, she was having a full life in Germany.

Jessica Capshaw (32:15)

Right.

Kim Raver (32:15)

So that. That very much exists for me now. Was I off on my own playing Teddy? No, But. But I have a but when you're.

Jessica Capshaw (32:23)

In that character, you did monologues after.

Kim Raver (32:25)

Exactly. Did it take you.

Jessica Capshaw (32:30)

This is the other thing that we talked about. Because. Did it take any convincing to say yes to come back? Because there's like a little bit of sag, Camilla, that be like, you know what? You lost me. You know, access denied.

Kim Raver (32:44)

Time out. I love that part of you so much.

Jessica Capshaw (32:48)

But by the way, that's not the right thing to do. That's like a very immature thing. Like, you know, but there's a.

Kim Raver (32:54)

When you say sag, is that like Sagittarius or Sag like Sage?

Jessica Capshaw (32:58)

No, like Sagittarius.

Camille Ludington (32:59)

Sagittarius.

Jessica Capshaw (32:59)

Sagittarius. Like we're stubbornly defines herself.

Camille Ludington (33:03)

Wait, but just so I'm clear, you're. You're saying Camilla, you're. You're saying that when Kim got the phone call saying, hey, please, we need you back here at Seattle Grace, whatever it was called at that time, you are saying that you're imagining a world in which she was like, sorry, you already lost Me?

Jessica Capshaw (33:20)

Yes.

Camille Ludington (33:21)

Okay. So what did you actually do, Kim?

Kim Raver (33:25)

It's. Again, I think I've been. I've been doing this, I mean, sort of since I was 13. I mean, even before that. But I don't consider that sort of like child actors. That was a totally different thing. And I think, you know, it's like I can recognize an amazing gift when it's there.

Jessica Capshaw (33:49)

Yeah.

Kim Raver (33:52)

And that's not to say that I've made all the right. But in that moment, I'm like, yes, thank you very much. I'll be there. Tell me what time. Yes, it was. It was a. For me, it was a no brainer. And that's also what I'm talking about in sort of like maturity and like the amazing thing of, like, getting years under your belt because it's.

Camille Ludington (34:13)

Yeah. Miles on your tires.

Kim Raver (34:15)

Right. Because maybe before I'd be like, I think I'm so this. And I'm not saying that that's what you're, you know.

Jessica Capshaw (34:21)

No, no, I'm. But what I am saying is it is the immature thing to do, like to have the reaction of, like, I felt that way.

Camille Ludington (34:28)

I understand what you're saying. I mean, when I left Gray's, I was a little bit like, let's flip a table. I flip a table. If someone all of a sudden turned around, like the next season was like, hey, just kidding, can you come back? I'd be like, no.

Jessica Capshaw (34:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's like a human. That's a human reaction to have. And I was just wondering if there was always.

Camille Ludington (34:45)

We.

Kim Raver (34:45)

I think we always want to feel wanted. I mean, that's just. That is just.

Camille Ludington (34:49)

Okay, hold on. But also, I think that I'm not just blowing smoke here. I really do think this is perhaps just what I'm imagining might have also been at play, was that when you came to the show, you are. I'm really not just saying it's like you're such a phenomenal actor and you bring so much to everything you do. You. You have had so many different storylines that went. They were such beautiful stories. And then there was this sort of moment where, you know, when Scott Foley's character passed, there was like this heaviness and there was this like. And you had become. It wasn't like a binary relationship, but it was just such an. A committed and important relationship. So then when you left after it, it wasn't so much like you got sent off. It was like that thing kind of like that story closed in such a sad way. But then when you came back, it was like you had never been gone. So it was just sort of like this picking up of another thread. Like there wasn't, it was almost like who could have, who could have ever known it was gonna go on for 22 plus years? But like it wasn't, it wasn't a thing. There wasn't a. There wasn't like this big departure moment or something.

Kim Raver (36:05)

But that also is the beauty of our show. It's almost like the old school theater company where people, you come and go and there's actors who have the highlighted role, whatever that play is. And then you know, then there's another, they use another actor and it's being malleable in that moment of when you're, when it's your moment story thing and trying to take the ego out of it and really being then supportive as the ensemble player. And I think that that also look, I think ego is a really an amazing thing. We need it when we. Especially as an actor, when you gotta walk in that room and you gotta, you know, a million auditions and then there's ego that gets in your way. In your way.

Jessica Capshaw (37:02)

Yeah.

Kim Raver (37:03)

And I think that that's where it's really having to do self checking of when is it, when is that ego standing in the way? Because maybe you're the sixth banana in the back during an or ER scene. It doesn't matter. It's what are you doing in that moment? And if you. I don't know, I just think it's really important and I think especially now there's just so many things in flux and just globally. So it's taking those moments that we get to create and really using and I don't know, for me there's a huge gratitude of it because you also. The life journey of actors, it's just sort of this ebb and flow and so when you're, when you're flowing, you better get on that surfboard, man. It's just sort of.

Camille Ludington (38:08)

I've been both by the way, when you said six banana in the back. I have been. I've, I've, I've played well. I guess what I'm saying is I've been human, but I've played with being in the sixth row and being like have. Having done my sense memory exercise before we started having bring props to work, even though they had them there. Like I've been so deep in it. And then I've had moments where I was like playing Candy Crush like underneath the table, like so present and then sometimes not. And I've actually, I'm. As much as I'm hard on myself for the moments that I played Candy Crush, because that's not what you're supposed to do at work. I'm like, well, okay, I did that because I was being human. And now I know. I actually know what I. What feels right at work. Right. Like, what the balance is. Because it is so particular to you. I was trying to tee up the moment, Camilla, that you and I were both in tears rewatching the episode.

Jessica Capshaw (39:01)

It was the episode that you left in, and you had this scene with us go in, and he comes in.

Camille Ludington (39:06)

And he fires you.

Kim Raver (39:07)

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (39:09)

You want to say Q, but I feel like you say something that's like. Yeah, like, it, like, packs a punch for our ABC show at whatever time it was on. And so we just re watched that episode, and I hadn't seen in 1 billion years.

Kim Raver (39:23)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (39:24)

And your acting is so phenomenal.

Camille Ludington (39:27)

I texted Kim after I saw it.

Jessica Capshaw (39:29)

Oh, you did?

Camille Ludington (39:29)

You did, Yes, I did. Yes. I'll look at my texts. I said, oh, my God.

Kim Raver (39:33)

We just.

Camille Ludington (39:33)

We did a rewatch. Oh, yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (39:35)

Season eight finale titled Flight. Oh, wait, it's the. It's the. It's the air. The plane episode.

Camille Ludington (39:41)

Yes. Because you. Because there's all this life happening in the woods on the plane crash, but then there's all this life happening at the hospital. And he comes in and he wants you to go, and so he fires you.

Kim Raver (39:52)

Yes. Yes.

Camille Ludington (39:53)

And you have to, like, your best friend.

Kim Raver (39:56)

And then you come back in.

Jessica Capshaw (39:57)

Yes.

Camille Ludington (39:58)

But it's almost like you forgive him. And like, for me, that's what I think I was trying to get to was that. For me, what I was imagining was that you are so hurt by him in this moment, and then you go, and somehow this transformative, almost incredibly graceful forgiveness happens, where you come back and you're able to do exactly what we were talking about, which is say, friend, I know that you're doing. It gives me goosebumps.

Jessica Capshaw (40:21)

Yeah. It was the writing of that.

Kim Raver (40:23)

I was gonna say the writing. That's, again, Shondaland. It's just incredible. They have this. They're the capability of. Of doing our up moments and our hero moments simultaneously. Right. And they are so aligned in life. Those things are so aligned. And what I love. One of the many things. But what I love is that the show highlights that, and I think that's why our fans lean into it still after this many years, because, you know, hopefully we do have our highlight moments and our, you know, our fallen moments. And I think that that's a really, it's like a, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing to get to play. It's a beautiful thing to watch and it's a beautiful thing to experience as an actor because it reminds you. Also, it's a very, it's the humanity of foreign.

Camille Ludington (41:27)

Hey, can we talk about Plan B for a second? What exactly is it?

Jessica Capshaw (41:31)

Okay, Plan B is emergency contraception you take after unprotected sex. Think of it as backup birth control. It works by temporarily delaying ovulation to help prevent pregnancy before it starts.

Camille Ludington (41:45)

And it's available right off the shelf.

Jessica Capshaw (41:47)

Yep. It's at all major retailers in all 50 US states. No prescription ID or age required requirement.

Kim Raver (41:54)

Ah.

Camille Ludington (41:56)

Together we've got this.

Jessica Capshaw (41:58)

Follow Plan B on Insta at Plan B One step Use as directed.

Kim Raver (42:05)

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, healthcare, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

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Jessica Capshaw (44:09)

Oh, man, it's so good. When I was watching it too, I remember thinking like, of course they brought her back.

Camille Ludington (44:16)

Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (44:16)

Like, it was like the story was not finished. Sometimes we have these exits on our show that feel like, okay, I get it. That. That feels like. Right, like goodbye. But that exit, I was like, oh.

Kim Raver (44:27)

No, there was more for Teddy.

Jessica Capshaw (44:28)

There was so much more.

Kim Raver (44:30)

That's cool.

Jessica Capshaw (44:31)

How much of filming that scene, since it was going to be the last episode and you didn't know you were coming back, was Kim and then how much of that was Teddy?

Camille Ludington (44:39)

God. I just have to interrupt. Do you remember the table read for the last episode?

Kim Raver (44:44)

Was I like, I. Could I not get it out? I think I blocked it out.

Jessica Capshaw (44:46)

Well, because we.

Camille Ludington (44:47)

I'm sure you did. I mean, I bought mine out of you.

Kim Raver (44:50)

Remember we were in the con.

Camille Ludington (44:51)

We were right off the commissary. Remember when we do. Yeah. Sometimes in the big room and sometimes right off the commissary.

Kim Raver (44:55)

Yeah.

Camille Ludington (44:56)

And I don't think really. I remember people not even really knowing what was going to happen. And so we were like. And we just got those scripts and. And I don't think any of us knew how it was all gonna go. And it was just like waterworks.

Kim Raver (45:08)

You know that scene, do you remember that scene in the OR where Teddy has to go and see him? It's almost like a morgue. Right. And she yells at the nurse who's in there to get out.

Jessica Capshaw (45:23)

Oh, God.

Kim Raver (45:24)

I remember. You know, as an actor, it's like you sort of need that moment to kind of like get into this heavy duty. And poor Scott Foley was like, under this sheet and he just. He had to hold his breath.

Camille Ludington (45:41)

Oh, no time.

Kim Raver (45:42)

And there's this whole moment where I have to fold back. I'd like. I sit down, I take off my skirt.

Jessica Capshaw (45:50)

Kim, I would not be able to do this scene with you.

Kim Raver (45:52)

We would not be able to do. We would not be able to take off my scrub cap. I like fold back the sheet slowly and it's. He's full on. And I am like, tears are stream. And he, at the end of it, he's like, oh, my God, Kim Raver. He's like, could you cry, cracker? He goes, I can't hold my breath. I don't even remember what he said. But being dead, it was just. It was such A moment. I mean, we had so many moments where I was not supposed to be. There was another scene. It is one of the funniest bloopers where he is. Cause, you know, his character was. And there is nothing funny about any of this. Right. But, you know, his.

Camille Ludington (46:34)

What do you think?

Kim Raver (46:35)

His character was, like, lying on the bed and he had all. You know, he was really sick, and he was, like, really, like, at the end. Right. And I had his water and, like, a straw, and I just. It was really late at night on a Friday night. We were shooting really long hours, and you guys. I got the giggles.

Jessica Capshaw (46:56)

Oh, no. It's terrifying.

Kim Raver (46:58)

It's terrifying. It really is. I don't know if people understand, but it's like, the place where you are. Absolutely not. And it was a. Like, Friday.

Camille Ludington (47:06)

It's during the SATs. You're, like, in the SAT room.

Kim Raver (47:09)

SATs. And you're like, every, like. And everyone is like, whole grade is counting on you, not it up.

Jessica Capshaw (47:16)

Yes.

Kim Raver (47:17)

And, like.

Jessica Capshaw (47:17)

Because everyone wants to go home.

Kim Raver (47:19)

And the more. And he was like, kim, it's Friday night. And I was like, I know.

Camille Ludington (47:22)

I'm sorry.

Kim Raver (47:23)

I mean, I just. It was like tears were streaming down my face. Cause I couldn't stop laughing.

Camille Ludington (47:28)

Yeah.

Kim Raver (47:29)

Scott's. There's been a couple of those.

Camille Ludington (47:31)

Oh, yeah. I can tell you that. I mean, just along those lines, that my last episode.

Jessica Capshaw (47:36)

Yeah.

Camille Ludington (47:37)

It was very hard to be Arizona.

Kim Raver (47:40)

Yeah. What was that like for you?

Camille Ludington (47:43)

I was just so sad. Yeah. I was just overtaken by sad. I was sad. I was confused. I was. I wanted. I wanted to do whatever I thought was, like, whatever going with Grace looked like. I wanted to. I wanted to. I wanted to go with Grace at the same time that I was so sad and confused. And so it was. I. I think I remember it being very hard to show up as my character because I also felt such a great responsibility to her. I felt like, such a great responsibility to have her be, like, the very best Arizona that she ever was. Because I knew it was gonna be the last.

Kim Raver (48:28)

Do you guys feel attached? Like, I feel very. Do you feel attached to your characters? Especially because it's different than doing a play and then you say goodbye or whatever. It's such a long. So you feel attached to them.

Jessica Capshaw (48:42)

I definitely do. One thing I've gotten really good at is in the early days when people were like, I hate Joe Wilson. I'd be like, yo, come at me, bro. I'm like, yeah, say it to my face on the street. You know, it's like, and now that's what. I was first on the show. And then I am so attached to her, and I'm so okay with people not liking her. And so that feels very freeing, actually. So I. I feel like I have a healthy. A healthy attachment.

Kim Raver (49:11)

How do you. How do you feel like you got.

Jessica Capshaw (49:13)

To that place, being on the show for 500 years and understanding that a lot of our storylines. Well, the truth is, when you're on the show for that long, your character's gonna up, they're gonna do stuff that the audience hates, and you're gonna get people with very strong opinions. And.

Kim Raver (49:30)

And.

Jessica Capshaw (49:31)

And we've talked about how you end up having to be sort of like your number one fan.

Kim Raver (49:36)

Right.

Jessica Capshaw (49:36)

For your own character. So whatever she does, if she does something that the audience don't like, I'm still rooting for whatever she's doing, you know, and if. So, I think it came from. What do you. Okay, if you read stuff online and it's like, teddy, do you have that, like, feeling?

Kim Raver (49:54)

I. I mean, look, I have. I have a rule from theater days where I just. I. I really try not to read anything.

Jessica Capshaw (50:04)

Yeah.

Camille Ludington (50:04)

Don't read the reviews.

Kim Raver (50:05)

Don't, don't.

Jessica Capshaw (50:06)

Oh, I don't read reviews. But once in a while on Instagram, it's like someone's commenting, like.

Kim Raver (50:10)

Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting because I also have that distance now from it because playing so long. And I think, also, I think it's, you know, it's. I love hearing from the fans of why they're angry at Ted, especially. How about when Teddi was. She had that terrible cheat. I mean, I was upset with Teddi. Right. But that also is so fascinating to me, and that is what is an interesting character. I mean, a do gooder all the time. Okay. But not as interesting. Not as interesting to play, not as interesting to watch. But again, I think what's cool about the show is the moments where the character is falling from grace and people are really upset. And I think that that's actually a good thing. So now I try to lean into it, and when I read it, I'm.

Camille Ludington (50:55)

Like, what was that number one moment for you? Was it the people being upset with Teddi, or have there been more than one?

Kim Raver (51:03)

No, I think that that was the. That was. People were really upset, really angry. And you know what? I think I was like, yes, I agree with you. I agree with you. And so. But I. But it's having enough trust in the writers that I mean, like, first I have to Ask myself, well, what is my role facilitating? What does it need to facilitate? Not whether I like what she's doing or not doing. Right. I've gotten to the place, I think, where maybe that's not the most important thing. Again, like, where are you fitting in in the community of telling the stories? And how is that? How. What does the story need to be to facilitate that? Now, am I human and, you know, you want people to root for you. Yes, but also I found it really, for me, then that's the interesting journey. That's the storytelling. That's the thing of like, okay, well, how do we dig her out of this hole? How does. You know what I mean? How does she earn back trust and forgiveness? And does that. Can that help someone out there who's going through the exact same thing, who, when they're watching it, feel really in an awful, terrible place because they made a terrible mistake and are also trying to navigate their way back into a better relationship, a better understanding of who they are. And so, yeah, when you see it, you're like, oh, no, please, you know, I don't want to see it. But then I try to think of like, oh, okay, well, what stories can we tell that will then be interesting and relatable and juicy and deep and, you know, full. What will be a good, full meal to tell now? And that is something that this show does a really good job of, is not. I feel that all the characters don't have to play the same note. And that used to be. And I don't know whether you guys feel this way in sort of like years ago. And maybe it's because these women roles are much more dynamic and diverse and richer and they're not just a girlfriend or like, they're much more just fuller and well written characters. And when I say before, I'm not talking about our show, I'm talking about.

Jessica Capshaw (53:34)

Like back in the day.

Camille Ludington (53:36)

Yeah, in olden days, is what you're talking about.

Jessica Capshaw (53:39)

I know. I knew that you weren't saying that because Shonda, I feel like, is one of the people that spearheaded.

Kim Raver (53:43)

Yes. Yeah.

Jessica Capshaw (53:44)

Women being so. I mean, like the fact that Meredith Gray, you know, and the whole like, that slut storyline and like the first season when she gets called a slut, you know, and she's. I think I, like, I hadn't seen that on TV yet. No, Kim, we're going to stop you right there because we're going to make this a very special two parter because.

Camille Ludington (54:02)

It'S too good sometimes when it's this nice you have to do it twice.

Jessica Capshaw (54:07)

Exactly right. So tune in Wednesday for part two. Just let's call it the end of this episode.

Camille Ludington (54:27)

Hey, can we talk about Plan B for a second? What exactly is it?

Jessica Capshaw (54:30)

Okay, Plan B is emergency contraception you take after unprotected sex. Think of it as backup birth control. It works by temporarily delaying ovulation to help prevent pregnancy before it starts.

Camille Ludington (54:44)

And it's available right off the shelf?

Jessica Capshaw (54:46)

Yep. It's at all major retailers in all 50 US states. No prescription ID or age requirement.

Camille Ludington (54:54)

Ah, together we've got this.

Jessica Capshaw (54:57)

Follow Plan B on Insta at Plan B one step Use as directed.

Ryan Seacrest (55:03)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Spooky season is quickly approaching, so time to stock up on all your favorite treats now through October 7th, you can get early savings on your Halloween candy favorites when you shop in store and online. Save on items like Hershey's, Reese's Pumpkins, Snickers Miniatures, Tootsie Rolls, Raw Sugar, Milk Chocolate, Caramel, Jack O Lanterns, Brock's Candy Corn Charms, Mini Pops and more. Offer ends October 7th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

Annabe Sofas Advertiser (55:34)

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. At WashablesOfAs.com, discover Anabe Sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flex Flexibility Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions. Options may apply.

Jessica Capshaw (56:33)

This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, Automate allowance, and keep an eye on what your.

Camille Ludington (56:52)

Kids are spending with real time notifications.

Jessica Capshaw (56:55)

Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started. Risk free at greenlight.com iheart. This is an iheart podcast.