Call It with Sophia Bush

Summary

Call It What It Is: Episode Summary – Featuring Hilarie Burton, Joy Lenz, and Camille Luddington

Introduction

In this episode of Call It What It Is, hosted by iHeartPodcasts, best friends and actresses Hilarie Burton, Joy Lenz, and Camille Luddington delve deep into their personal and professional lives. They explore the complexities of maintaining strong friendships amidst the highs and lows of the entertainment industry, the challenges they faced on set, and the empowering journey of creating their podcast during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Origins of the Podcast

The conversation begins with Camille Luddington sharing the heartfelt inspiration behind launching the podcast. As COVID-19 restrictions took hold, the trio found themselves isolated yet yearning for connection. Camille recounts, “[10:00] When we were all stuck at home and on FaceTime, we realized how much we missed hanging out together. Opening a bottle of wine virtually led to an hour of meaningful conversation, sparking the idea for our podcast.”

This spontaneous virtual gathering highlighted their desire to stay connected and support one another, ultimately leading to the creation of Call It What It Is. The podcast became a platform for them to share their experiences, offer advice, and extend their friendship circle to listeners.

Navigating Professional and Personal Boundaries

Joy Lenz opens up about the transition from acting to podcasting, emphasizing the shift from portraying characters to expressing their authentic selves. She reflects, “[12:30] ‘As actors, we're trained to speak in certain ways and represent projects a specific way. Podcasting allowed us to break free from that and speak our truth.’” This newfound freedom enabled them to discuss sensitive topics without the constraints of their on-screen personas.

Camille adds, “[12:27] ‘Podcasting requires us to own our narratives from start to finish. It's different from acting because everything we share is genuinely ours, from the ideas to the final edit.’” This authenticity fosters a deeper connection with their audience, allowing listeners to relate to their genuine experiences and emotions.

Addressing Harassment and Power Dynamics

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the harrowing experiences the actresses faced with abusive power dynamics on set. Camille shares her ordeal, stating, “[24:00] ‘We were the first cast to collectively author a statement about the use of power. It was our way to stand unified and protect each other from further trauma.’” This collective stance was crucial in creating a supportive environment for themselves and their colleagues.

Joy recounts her anxiety during a confrontation with Human Resources, “[32:07] ‘I remember being called into HR and feeling my heart race. It was pre-2017, and support systems were virtually non-existent. I felt isolated and unsure of how to proceed.’” These candid admissions highlight the importance of solidarity and the need for improved reporting mechanisms in the industry.

Evolving Friendships and Personal Growth

The trio discusses how their friendships have evolved alongside their professional lives. Camille reflects, “[22:14] ‘Through the podcast, we've revisited our most innocent selves and navigated our complexities as adults. It’s been a journey of making more space for each other and ourselves.’” This evolution has strengthened their bond, allowing them to support one another through personal and collective challenges.

Hilarie Burton adds, “[39:29] ‘The podcast allows us to be more vulnerable and authentic. We’re not constrained by a script, which lets us explore our stories honestly and supportively.’” This vulnerability has not only deepened their friendships but also resonated with their listeners, fostering a community of mutual support and understanding.

Balancing Vulnerability and Professionalism

Joy shares her struggle with balancing vulnerability and maintaining professionalism, “[21:05] ‘As actors, we're used to being the project we're representing. Podcasting flipped that dynamic, forcing us to represent ourselves authentically without the usual filters.’” This balance is challenging but vital for creating meaningful and impactful conversations on the podcast.

Camille echoes this sentiment, “[27:00] ‘We had to learn to set boundaries and decide what to share and what to keep private. It’s a delicate balance, but it’s essential for our mental well-being and the integrity of our friendships.’” Their ability to navigate these boundaries has been pivotal in sustaining the podcast’s success and their personal relationships.

Empowering Lessons and Future Directions

Throughout the episode, the friends emphasize the importance of vulnerability, mutual support, and standing up against injustices. Camille shares a powerful takeaway, “[35:15] ‘Not being afraid to be vulnerable and cherishing our relationships has been key. We’ve learned that it’s okay to be imperfect and to seek help when needed.’”

Looking ahead, the trio expresses their commitment to continuing the podcast as a safe space for discussing real-life issues, offering advice, and supporting their audience. They highlight the therapeutic and empowering aspects of their conversations, “[39:19] ‘The podcast has become a part of who we are. It’s a way for us to give back and help others navigate their own challenges.’”

Conclusion

This episode of Call It What It Is is a testament to the strength of friendship, the courage to speak out against adversity, and the transformative power of authentic conversations. Hilarie Burton, Joy Lenz, and Camille Luddington not only share their personal stories but also provide invaluable insights and support to their listeners, reinforcing the podcast’s mission to navigate life’s complexities together.

Notable Quotes

• Camille Luddington [10:00]: “When we were all stuck at home and on FaceTime, we realized how much we missed hanging out together. Opening a bottle of wine virtually led to an hour of meaningful conversation, sparking the idea for our podcast.”

• Joy Lenz [12:30]: “As actors, we're trained to speak in certain ways and represent projects a specific way. Podcasting allowed us to break free from that and speak our truth.”

• Camille Luddington [24:00]: “We were the first cast to collectively author a statement about the use of power. It was our way to stand unified and protect each other from further trauma.”

• Joy Lenz [32:07]: “I remember being called into HR and feeling my heart race. It was pre-2017, and support systems were virtually non-existent. I felt isolated and unsure of how to proceed.”

• Camille Luddington [22:14]: “Through the podcast, we've revisited our most innocent selves and navigated our complexities as adults. It’s been a journey of making more space for each other and ourselves.”

• Hilarie Burton [39:29]: “The podcast allows us to be more vulnerable and authentic. We’re not constrained by a script, which lets us explore our stories honestly and supportively.”

• Camille Luddington [35:15]: “Not being afraid to be vulnerable and cherishing our relationships has been key. We’ve learned that it’s okay to be imperfect and to seek help when needed.”

Final Thoughts

Hilarie, Joy, and Camille’s candid dialogue offers listeners a profound look into the resilience of friendship and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations. Their journey underscores the significance of standing together, especially in challenging times, and serves as an inspiring guide for anyone navigating the complexities of personal and professional relationships.

Transcript

[Sophia Bush]

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[Hilarie Burton]

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[Joy Lenz]

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[Sophia Bush]

Is coming to Apple TV.

[Joy Lenz]

What you all did five months ago.

[Sophia Bush]

Was one of the most painful moments.

[Hilarie Burton]

In the history of this company. Our message got out.

[Camille Luddington]

We're famous.

[Sophia Bush]

All of us equally or one of.

[Camille Luddington]

Us is like the star. What did you see? My audi's wife was Ms. Casey.

[Sophia Bush]

If you want to find out what happened to her, I'll help.

[Camille Luddington]

She's still alive. I want to see my wife.

[Sophia Bush]

He should have left Severance new season streaming January 17th only on Apple TV.

[Joy Lenz]

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[Hilarie Burton]

Feeling good is so important and no matter what you do to be healthy or lose weight, now we get to utilize science and everyone wins. They give millions of people affordable access to weight loss meds for less than $3 a day. Just take their quick 3 minute survey from there. If approved by clinician, you'll get prescribed and get meds delivered to your door within 24 hours.

[Joy Lenz]

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[Hilarie Burton]

Call it what it is with Jessica.

[Joy Lenz]

Capshaw and Camille Ludington and iHeartRadio podcast. Hello, hello, hello, hello, Call it crew.

[Hilarie Burton]

And welcome to another episode of Call it what it is. But this, this time it's a crossover.

[Camille Luddington]

We're in the second part.

[Hilarie Burton]

We started with work in progress with Sophia Bush. I'm staring at her gorgeous face right now.

[Joy Lenz]

Hi, pollinating.

[Hilarie Burton]

Hi, pollinating. And. And the second half of this podcast is with us. She got to shimmy her.

[Joy Lenz]

So you're gonna need to go over to hers to get the first half because. Yes, a lot got said.

[Hilarie Burton]

A lot got said.

[Joy Lenz]

A lot that gets said here too.

[Hilarie Burton]

So we have to start by saying Sophia. When we started the podcast, we were looking for names you under, you know, when you find the name is a big deal. Right. And we just kept going back to how annoying it was.

[Joy Lenz]

I was so annoyed that you guys.

[Hilarie Burton]

Had taken drama Queens because it was just so good.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

I'm so sorry.

[Joy Lenz]

It is, it is so good.

[Hilarie Burton]

It's so good. Do you remember coming up with it? Did the three of you come up with it together?

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. And it's. It just sort of hit us. We were talking about all these things and. And it also felt fun, you know, when you do a version of a primetime soap. And especially in the early aughts when we were all getting made fun of for it, we were like, we're gonna own this.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Hilarie Burton]

Do you feel like you got made fun of? Because I remember wanting to be on your show so badly as one of the actresses coming. And yes.

[Joy Lenz]

I thought it was One Tree Hill. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hilarie Burton]

Of course.

[Joy Lenz]

Because you auditioned for it, right?

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah. If you listen to how well that went in the. Yeah, go back to see how that went.

[Camille Luddington]

I. Yeah, we got made fun of a ton. It was, it was very like, ooh, teen dramas. Wah, wah. Like, we got, we got ripped apart on the soup every week for whatever reason, Joel McHale loved to talk about how ridiculous one was.

[Joy Lenz]

Jealous.

[Hilarie Burton]

Jealous.

[Camille Luddington]

Honestly, like, sometimes he was right. I mean, we had a dog that ate a heart on our show. Like, you guys do a medical show, and I don't think you've ever had an animal eat an organ.

[Hilarie Burton]

It doesn't sound that crazy, but I. These were the shows I wanted.

[Joy Lenz]

So sexy. I remember, like, the billboards. I remember them being very sexy.

[Hilarie Burton]

You guys on the COVID of magazine.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah. I felt like it was a smoke show. Yeah, it was 100%. And you. So, okay, so one of the people, one of the queens is speaking of smoke shows. Someone who I made out with a little bit.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah, she should.

[Joy Lenz]

On our show, the Grey's Anatomy. Hilarie Burton, if you don't already know, this is one of the loveliest humans on the planet.

[Camille Luddington]

The best.

[Joy Lenz]

She came over to graze, and she knew she was playing someone who was gonna, like, upset the apple cart. And most. I think in my mind, I was imagining most people would come in a little sort of like on Tenderhooks and be like, ooh, I'm gonna come in and play this part. And she was not. She was, like, bold and smart and sassy, and she just took over and.

[Hilarie Burton]

But you married chemistry. But you know what? Sophia's kind of. Does she give you any tips? Because you can't. You've just. If you guys haven't caught up on Grey's nanny, you really have to, because Sophia came in to mix some up.

[Camille Luddington]

I love stirrers.

[Hilarie Burton]

Does she give you any tips, or did she give you a heads up?

[Camille Luddington]

We. I mean, God, I remember us talking about it then because we were so excited for her to be on the show because it was a show we'd loved while we were making ours, and I texted her and was like, girl, what. What kind of, like, fun voodoo do we have going that, like, now I get to go and kiss a pretty woman on graze also.

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

And it feels right. It's like. It's very adjacent energy for us, and that feels great.

[Hilarie Burton]

What. What is something that you felt was unexpected when you started the show?

[Camille Luddington]

Your show?

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

Oh, my gosh.

[Hilarie Burton]

Got on Grace, like, what's something that surprised you?

[Camille Luddington]

So you know what? One of the things I really appreciate as a fan, not only of the show, but of Shonda as a writer and a world maker, is that I've interacted with her a bit in sort of, you know, groups of women, like, advocating for us to, you know, be whole people, shock her that we want that. And I know how brilliant she is and how lovely she is. What was very cool to me was to hear about the world y'all have built over these years and how, you know, professional and well oiled and respectful and smart and bold. It is. And I walked onto set and was like, damn, 21 seasons in, everyone is on time, everyone is excited, everybody cares about everybody. People are trading pictures of kids and making sure people have what they need. And everyone shows up to the table, read and gives it their absolute all. I was like, oh, sets that are, like, run by women are just different in the best way. And I'm having the most fun, so thank you for having me.

[Hilarie Burton]

Oh, stay. Please stay.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah, it's lovely. I love it.

[Hilarie Burton]

And of course, Joy was on the show, too.

[Camille Luddington]

I know.

[Joy Lenz]

Yes, that's right. So all three of you.

[Hilarie Burton]

All three.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Hilarie Burton]

So how did you guys decide to come up with the pod together? The drama Queens 1?

[Camille Luddington]

So, you know, we talked about this on my show a bit with the two of you, but sets are complicated. They're amazing and they're complicated. And for all the sort of wonderful stuff we got to have in our years together, our friendships, I think, got even more expansive and even more special in the years after because there wasn't the kind of like, put your life on the back burner to keep the ship of the set always moving at however many knots in the right direction. Like, we actually got to be more whole people, which meant our friendships were more. More, you know, whole friendships. And it was early days of COVID hitting, and we were all stuck at home and we were on a FaceTime and the girls, Hillary and Joy and I were out on the west coast, and Hillary was back in New York, and we were joking, like, is it too early to open a bottle of wine? And she was like, well, not in York. And we were like, well, it. Neither is it in California. And we all, like, opened a bottle of wine together. And then we were just kind of chatting and then suddenly, like, an hour had gone by and we started making dinner and we were just like, hanging out on a FaceTime. But it wasn't, you know, a short catch up or like a phone call in the car. We were on video because we had nowhere to go. And it kind of hit me and I was like, wait a second. I do this podcast. I do, which I love, and I get to ask fascinating people all the questions that I want to ask them. But this is kind of fun what we're doing, and none of us are Going to leave the house. Everyone keeps saying two weeks. We were like, that's not happening. We're not going to leave the house.

[Joy Lenz]

The longest two weeks.

[Camille Luddington]

The infamous two weeks. And so I had a call with one of my agents, and I was like, is this a crazy idea? And she was like, I think it's actually a really, really great idea. And then I called Hillary back and said, you know, because she'd left the show earlier, and I said, if you hate this idea, I'll never say I had it, but if you don't hate this idea, like, should we call Joy back? And she was like, let's call Joy. And that was it. We just decided to build a world. And, like, it's been so healing and confronting and special. And I was gonna say so.

[Joy Lenz]

So that's the piece I'm interested in. Because, you know, we're. This is a very nascent phase for us because we're only six months in.

[Camille Luddington]

Okay.

[Joy Lenz]

I mean, it's just like baby podcast. It's little babies. And I'm curious about your experience with. You know, actors are sort of. We're meant to say the words of other people and do the things on the set. And of course, we have opinions, and of course we have ideas, and it's a collaborative process, you know? Absolutely. Then you go do this other thing where it's from the beginning to the end, you. And the origins of all things are your ideas, then they're your thoughts, then they're your words, then you're editing them, and then what you put out into the world really is yours. But again, as actors, we're sort of trained to, when we go out, to have our own words, speak in a certain way and sort of like, not protect, but be judicious about how we speak about things or represent a project in a way that the project would like to be represented. And then all of a sudden, you find yourself in a podcasting space, and you're the project that you're representing now. And my experience is that I'm learning how to speak about myself in different ways, figure out where my boundaries are with regards to what it is that I talk about, what is it that I don't talk about? What was that like for you all in the beginning?

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah, I mean, it's all of that.

[Joy Lenz]

And do you see a big difference between when you started and now? Like, when you first picked up the microphone, were you like. And.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah, I think when we first started, we all got together to be together in person and watch a couple of episodes. And record. And we got to the end of our first block of watching together and we all just burst into tears. And none of us were expecting to have that reaction, but we, we were sort of being confronted with our youngest and most innocent selves who had, you know, bonded and loved each other and not yet been through the complexity and not yet been through the terrible behind the scenes stuff and not yet, you know, learned we could each open up about our boss and weird dynamics at work that women go through. And it, it was, it was like being on the precipice of something that looked perfect, but you knew how hard it was going to be and you never get to have that experience. And it was really unexpected and it was really special. And, and through the years, it has been all the things it has been really confronting. It has been really hard. It requires that you go through things together. And, you know, as, you know, winding up on a show together is kind of like experiencing not one arranged marriage, but like thirty or a hundred. Like suddenly you're just with all these people all the time and they're strangers, but you're supposed to know how to perfectly, intimately communicate and make space for each other and whatever. It's, it's hard and it's amazing. And it's been a revisiting of those things, but it's also been a revisiting of those things as more adult versions of ourselves, as wiser versions of ourselves. I think, you know, we've been able to make more space for each other. We've been able to make more space for ourselves. Sometimes we do episodes and it's like we're transported to a place. And there are some weeks where I know I'll come in so tired and think, I am so sick of talking, I have nothing left to say. The world is insane. I don't know what I'm going to do this week. And then something amazing happens. And yeah, it has this life of its own.

[Hilarie Burton]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Hilarie Burton]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Hilarie Burton]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Hilarie Burton]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Hilarie Burton]

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[Joy Lenz]

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[Hilarie Burton]

Feeling good is so important and no matter what you do to be healthy or lose weight, now we get to utilize science and and everyone wins. They give millions of people affordable access to weight loss meds for less than $3 a day. Just take their quick 3 minute survey from there. If approved by a clinician, you'll get prescribed and get meds delivered to your door within 24 hours.

[Joy Lenz]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Joy Lenz]

Did you know that in the beginning, in that moment where you, you know, you. You went back to that place together and then you all ended in. In tears? Did you. Did you get the inkling that you were going to go forth and be doing some hard things, like doing the confronting. Did you know then, like, oh, my God, I think that we're gonna confront this tough boss, this situation that was not what people thought it was like. Did you know that?

[Camille Luddington]

I don't know. I think what we. What we knew is that it felt important. What we knew is that when the show first ended and we all ran as far away from it as we could and we never wanted to speak about it, it kept coming back and there was no getting away from it. And we had to figure out why, sort of spiritually, energetically, as a. As a version of a family. We were in this. And then it really has been so special. And there were certain things that just evolved, you know, as. As we started to talk about what was going on behind the scenes, we would check in with each other and be like, no, this really matters because nobody gave us advice. So what if we could give women advice? And then there was a day we realized we'd been sort of going through the sequence of events at one point with our boss, and one of us said his name and it was like, absolutely not. We will never speak his name. So we talk about our boss, but we do not speak his name. Because I will not honor him in that way. And neither will anyone else who comes on our show where, like, you are a man who is a creep like so many other men. And bye. And that was like a thing we didn't know we were gonna do, that we had no idea that no one would use his name. And we just don't. And it's been this kind of cool thing where you're like, oh, we can. We can make decisions for ourselves, big and small. You know, there are. There are things there are, you know, family bust ups we'll never talk about. Every once in a while I'm like, not everything needs to be on a thing. And I don't even just mean that for us. I mean that for other friends who have their own shows. I'm like, Some things just, just keep. But I think the overarching lessons, I think not being afraid to be vulnerable and say these are the most cherished relationships and they're also really complicated at times. Like we're human. This isn't actually a TV show. There's a whole bigger life with three dimensional people, you know, not two dimensional characters on a screen. And so I think it's been really special and it's been cool in our friendships outside of it and in the ways our families are growing and in the places we all live and the things we all do together. Even the conversations we have now with the fans who grew up with the show, who are re watching the show. I have this like deeper experience with everyone who ever loved One Tree Hill than I ever knew I could before. We started this and I already knew it was really special. And now it's like we're all in on something together. And I can't explain it. It's like it has reconnected me to why I love doing my job. It's reconnected me to strangers in ways that for a while like I was really turned off and scared out in the world cause of some things that were happening. And now I'm like, I think most people are pretty awesome. Wanna hang out?

[Joy Lenz]

Do you feel like in retalking about it you're able to or what is your relationship with being like, oh man, I would have, I could do that differently or.

[Camille Luddington]

Yes.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

Do you mean as a person or an actor or both?

[Joy Lenz]

I guess both.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Joy Lenz]

I just, I think that our history is obviously such an incredible place to learn from at the same time that again, it can sort of, you know, weigh you down and so it's like, what's the part that I, you know, I'm grateful for that moment. That was really hard.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Joy Lenz]

Because I'm here now and I know I can handle that. I talk about all the time. But I just, I love, I love Coach Kara. Which is like, is it going to get easier? It's not going to get easier. You're just going to get better at doing the hard.

[Camille Luddington]

Exactly.

[Joy Lenz]

I think that like that's how I, I, it makes a lot of sense to me. So the doing the hard, it's like the hard thing can happen and you, you're, you're the tiny baby, right? You just, you don't even, I mean, I go into, it's fight, fight or freeze. I freeze. I'm like, what's happening? And then I look. When I was younger I would just look for the grownups in the room. I remember saying that time and time again when people would misbehave and I would be like, where are the grownups? Like, where.

[Hilarie Burton]

But what's interesting is she's talking about the set being a family, a family dynamic. Right. There are moments where in all the years we've worked in all the different shows and stuff, if some. There. The, the. The adults are not in the room, you're looking to adults that don't exist.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Hilarie Burton]

Oh, wait, I'm curious. When you guys decided that you were gonna do the show and you were just gonna speak your truth, was there? Because we have this a lot in our industry. Did anyone advise you guys to sort of play it nice? Was there a push ever to be like, you guys, don't talk about the drama behind the scenes. Okay, that's.

[Joy Lenz]

I love that.

[Camille Luddington]

I think everybody knows us well enough and is like, if you tell those girls not to do something, they're gonna be like, watch this. Yeah, I think everybody knew probably not to do that. I will say what was really interesting to me, and this was prior to us obviously starting the show, but we all experienced what we experienced on our show. And we were actually the first cast to, as a group, author a statement about the use of power. Because it was a way for us to stand as a unified front and to not have any one person's story be like, exposed and re. Traumatizing for them, but sort of run the gamut. And when we were putting that together, which was then echoed and increased in number by the cast on our old boss's show, at the time, I had had a job in between that was for me as an individual, by far the worst thing I'd ever experienced. And I was told at the time, you're gonna have to pick what story.

[Hilarie Burton]

You'Re gonna tell because then you look difficult potentially. Like, oh, you've had an issue with one show and now you have an issue with another.

[Camille Luddington]

Exactly. It was like, men that are old enough to be your father, who break the law are the problem. But you've had two, two men old enough to be your father do this to you and you run the risk of looking like you're asking for it. And I was like. I was like, I'm pretty sure anybody who knows me knows I'm like a fire breathing dragon. So that's not it. But that was a really interesting experience and it still is. And I was very clear. I was like, I'm just, I'm not just not going to say anything about it. But I'll say, I'll say as little as I can and be clear about this circumstance because what I won't do is not stand with my family.

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah, right.

[Camille Luddington]

Like, I'm not gonna bow out of this conversation. Even though my experience in Wilmington was actually one of the earliest and the fastest and then never happened to me again, it was like, no, I'm standing with my family. Yeah, of course.

[Hilarie Burton]

Right.

[Camille Luddington]

And that's an interesting thing. And I think that's a, I think that's kind of a symptom of the disease of power that.

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

In 2017, we were only just taking the lid off in our industry and nobody really knew what, what the ramifications were going to be. So it was like, well, you're going to get out. You're essentially going to go stand on the highway and hope not to get run over.

[Joy Lenz]

Hmm.

[Sophia Bush]

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[Hilarie Burton]

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[Joy Lenz]

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[Hilarie Burton]

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[Joy Lenz]

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[Hilarie Burton]

I hate that like the feedback that you've got and it's something that I think that we've all sort of wrestled with that if you've had a bad experience and most likely had more than one, you're allowed to talk at some point about just one. Pick your battle.

[Joy Lenz]

Right.

[Hilarie Burton]

Otherwise it's not their reputation. You can't say. I've worked with a bunch of people that have. It's been tough. I've had terrible experiences. You're only then that makes you look bad. Like well the problem is you and I hate that we are just given the one allowance to maybe talk about. I'm curious also if anyone's apologized to you, your boss. Has there ever been a moment? No. Okay. No apologies. Not that you guys need it. But I'm just curious. Or would you like, it. Would you. Would it. Would it do something if you heard from that person?

[Camille Luddington]

The gamut of experience I've had is total silence and denial to, this is how I'm gonna get away with it. And it's like, wow, y'all are wild. But I. What I find is helpful because every woman I know has a story, whether you're in our industry or not. By the way, like, every friend of mine.

[Hilarie Burton]

I'm talking about everybody.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. Like, every friend of mine who went to nursing school has a story. Every friend of mine in academia has a story. Like, every friend of mine in real estate, like, you know.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Camille Luddington]

So what I think has been really helpful for me, and I think for all of us, is, like, when you've been through something horrible, especially at work, for me, it's been helpful to be, like, mathematical, because math helps me process emotions. So I'm like, yeah, I had two people who were absolutely grotesque to me. And I've been a working actor for 20 years, and every set I've been on has been populated by, like, a minimum of 200 people. So I actually think my ratio is pretty good. It's just really unfortunate when the two people are the ones most in control of your life. Like, that's not great. And how are we going to shift those things? And how are the behaviors around those things going to change? And, you know, how are the reporting procedures going to be made safer for women and all these things? Because we did it all right, and it didn't matter.

[Joy Lenz]

The reporting is maybe even the most complex because.

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah.

[Joy Lenz]

I mean. Yeah. I mean, again, when I was asking, like, what you would do differently, I. I mean, when I think about it, there's so many things, right, where I'm like, oh, gosh, like, I would have done that differently. But, yeah, I mean, I remember being in a situation where what someone was doing was so bad that someone else called hr.

[Camille Luddington]

Yep, I had that, too.

[Joy Lenz]

By the way. I remember getting. I remember getting. Someone came on set and said, jessica, someone needs to talk to you. Being like, like, what I do? Yeah, what I do. And they were like, hr needs to talk to you. And I got taken to a room, and I remember my heart, like, beating out of my chest. And I remember all the sweat. The sweat and the heartbeat. And I was at work, by the way. It's not like it was like, you know, I don't. Respectfully, like, I'll grab you on a day off. Right. Like, I'm, like, gonna do another scene after this. And the HR person asked all the, like, perfunctory HR questions about this person. And I remember playing such a chess game in my head because it was think my thinking then, which was not brave and not courageous and not supported or held by my own self. Firstly, what can I say that will, like, be the wink to you're not wrong. Yeah, please leave me and yeah, please don't do anything. Or I still would like my job. Yeah, I'd still like. I still want my job and I.

[Hilarie Burton]

Still want to be liked and I still want to be thought of as someone that's easy to work with.

[Joy Lenz]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

Because I am.

[Joy Lenz]

Because I am.

[Hilarie Burton]

We're not. We're made to feel like if we say this is difficult, we're not. And then, guess what, it's us who get rid. It's not that you get fired, it's that you get written off.

[Joy Lenz]

Yep.

[Hilarie Burton]

And you can't argue that's the reason why. But you know, deep down, that's why you're gone.

[Joy Lenz]

I know. Yes. Yes. And I crafted that answer in my head, I think enough to be to then, you know, all right, thank you very much. And I left. And I remember going into my trailer and weeping.

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joy Lenz]

And then calling someone who I trusted. This was pre 2017. This was pre people saying, you can do this and still have your job.

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah. Pre July 2017 was the wild West.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hilarie Burton]

No, it really was. Yeah.

[Joy Lenz]

But I called and I said this just happened. And this was my answer. And what do you think? And they absolutely said that was a. They condoned my avoidance. It was, you know, you said what you needed to say to keep your job and keep going on. And affirmed, yes, you would be. And by the way, it wasn't dishonest what this person said. They weren't say they weren't.

[Camille Luddington]

They were.

[Joy Lenz]

They were furthering the shit. It's like they were furthering what we all thought was what we were supposed to do. But. Yeah, and they thought they were being protective, but they. At the messaging was absolutely. You should say nothing and handle it yourself and do what you need to do.

[Hilarie Burton]

Sophia, we have to. We only have a few minutes left, but we. I have a. I have a question for you. So we got asked in an interview what we would love to ask Taylor Swift. And I thought about what is some sort of misconception about her that she would like to clear up. So I want to offer you the same question.

[Camille Luddington]

I don't know, because I. I try not to pay attention to what I think are misconceptions. What I will say is, I think what's really unfortunate is when the most base parts of our industry make a lot of money really being reductive about women. And then no matter who you become or, or the complexity that, that you are or the service you live in, anytime they can reduce you to like a cartoon version of yourself or a trope or stereotype, they'll do that because they make money on it, not even because it's true. And that's something I find really hard to watch. And I think there's a version of that. I talked to some of my girlfriends about this recently. I think there's especially a version of that with anyone who's come from a teen drama. Like, they want to keep you in high school drama forever. And I thought about that a lot because I spent a long weekend with a girlfriend of mine from my first show. And we're family. We don't always agree, but like, we're family. And we really sat and just like unpacked. I mean, we spent six and a half hours, like on the couch drinking coffees on Sunday just like digging into some stuff. And she was like, God, we've been family for 20 years. And even I, if we're just texting, can forget the way you talk to me and the space you make for me, rather than the way I hear the things I read because I read them as my insecure 21 year old self. And I forget the women we are when we're not in the room together. And I was like, this can be with your closest people. Like, of course, like, we were joking earlier. Of course, the Internet is a cesspool. Like, what we're expecting people to be like their best selves from therapy with strangers online. I wish we were, but we're not. And it's like, I just wish, particularly for us, we were given a little more space. We were given space to be brilliant and imperfect. And yeah, we didn't feel like we always had to get it right just to exist at zero. Like when you were asking me about things, when I look back at the show, I think about scenes I wish I'd played differently, been like, ugh, I love that we disrupted this and I love that we screwed up the blocking. And I remember and we did this really cool thing and it's great. And then I'll watch another scene and be like, oh my God, I wish I'd played it again exactly against how it was written so that it communicated like, what was coming next. But I, I didn't have the wherewithal at 22 to do that. And now, you know, there's episodes where I watch it, and I'm like, who told me I could wear my hair like that?

[Joy Lenz]

Oh, it happens so often.

[Camille Luddington]

You know, I'll look at the girls and be like, you weren't my real.

[Joy Lenz]

Friends and worked so many hairstyles.

[Camille Luddington]

And it's like, there's these big lessons about artistry, and there's big lessons about how. How much courage you have. Like you said, to say the hard thing, even though you're terrified it might disrupt the ship. You know, what does it mean to ask for help even when you feel like you've been somewhere long enough that you're not supposed to need it? Like, I feel like I've learned so much about myself in terms of my intellect, in terms of my humor, in terms of being a really good human, in terms of being absolutely ridiculous. Like, I wish we got to be more of our full selves out in the world.

[Hilarie Burton]

Yeah.

[Joy Lenz]

Yes.

[Camille Luddington]

But that's probably, like a hard.

[Hilarie Burton]

I feel like. I feel like the podcast allows us a little bit to be more us because we're not on a talk show. Promote, you know?

[Camille Luddington]

Yeah.

[Hilarie Burton]

I feel like this allows us to be a little bit more loose and messy and vulnerable. But I, I, I, I agree with you. It's, it's, it's difficult. I hear you.

[Joy Lenz]

Yeah. I feel completely myself in these moments, you know, and even just like, I know it's over. Zoom. But we're looking at your beautiful face and just the heart that you bring to, you know, the stories that you tell. And I mean, again, I have. I mean, I've seen you on screen. I have eyeballs and ears and a telephone. Right. So I. Telephone is what I just said.

[Hilarie Burton]

Wow. Telephone.

[Joy Lenz]

You know, it rings sometimes, and I'm like, hello, banana phone. I have a smartphone.

[Camille Luddington]

I have a road.

[Joy Lenz]

In fact, at the landline, I see headlines and. Yeah, no, it's just. It is. That thing is a replacement for being in these kinds of conversations. So thank you for bringing your whole.

[Hilarie Burton]

Story and for calling it what it is over and over and over. I love it.

[Joy Lenz]

Yes. Well, to many more, and hopefully I'll see. Maybe I'll see you in the halls.

[Hilarie Burton]

Of, Of Grace Hill Memorial. Yes.

[Camille Luddington]

Please come play. Okay.

[Joy Lenz]

Stay away from the. What is it? Supply closets.

[Hilarie Burton]

Or go in or go all the way in.

[Camille Luddington]

I mean, I don't know, guys.

[Joy Lenz]

In a supply closet or was it a call room? I'd like to know. Please answer the question.

[Hilarie Burton]

All right. I know we have to.

[Joy Lenz]

Okay, thank you, thank you and let's call it the end of the episode.

[Sophia Bush]

Homes.com knows having the right agent can make or break your home search. That's why they provide home shoppers with an agent directory that gives you a detailed look at each agent's experience, like the number of closed sales in a specific neighborhood, average price range, and more. It lets you easily connect with all the agents in the area you're searching so you can find the right agent with the right experience and ultimately the right home for you. Homes.com we've done your homework.

[Hilarie Burton]

Cheap Caribbean is celebrating more than just the new year in 2025. Cheap Caribbean Vacations is celebrating its 25th birthday too. You're invited to join in on the birthday fun and book a beach vacay with more savings.

[Joy Lenz]

Now through February 3rd, you can unlock up to $250 off site wide vacation packages. Celebrate these awesome savings at your favorite beach and book your next all inclusive [e-mail] your $250 off is waiting. Did you know that future health can help make weight loss resolutions come true? When it's about biology and not willpower, it's not your fault that the dieting just doesn't work. Find out if weight loss meds are right for you in just three minutes and for less than $3 a day. Eight out of 10 users say that using the Future Health program is more effective than anything they have ever tried.

[Hilarie Burton]

Feeling good is so important and no matter what you do to be healthy or lose weight, now we get to utilize science and everyone wins. They give millions of people affordable access to weight loss meds for less than $3 a day. Just take their quick 3 minute survey from there. If approved by a clinician, you'll get prescribed and get meds delivered to your door within 24 hours.

[Joy Lenz]

Find out if weight loss meds are right for you in just 3 minutes at try FH.com try FH.com try Fh.com futurehealth is not a health care services provider. Meds are prescribed at providers discretion. Results may vary. Sponsored by FutureHealth Thursdays on ABC.

[Camille Luddington]

Get ready to move that bus. The beloved series Extreme Makeover Home Edition is making a triumphant return to kick off the new year. Join the makeover mavens Joanna Teplin and Clee Shearer as they hit the road on a mission to transform lives of deserving families. They have just four days to rally communities, demolish old homes and rebuild not.

[Hilarie Burton]

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[Camille Luddington]

Extreme Makeover Home edition Thursdays at 8.7central on ABC and stream next day on Hulu.

[Hilarie Burton]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Joy Lenz]

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