Fortune Favors the Bold

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Ride at Dawn (ish) – "Fortune Favors the Bold"

Hosts: Jessica Capshaw & Camilla Luddington
Date: July 2, 2026
Theme: Unpacking the Difference Between Being Nice and Being Kind—In Friendship, Life, and Hollywood

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Episode Overview

In this candid and lively episode, Jessica Capshaw and Camilla Luddington dive deep into the nuanced difference between being "nice" and being "kind"—a topic sparked by real-life dilemmas and day-to-day interactions. Through relatable anecdotes and playful banter, they explore how these traits show up in friendships, professional settings, and personal boundaries, especially as women in the entertainment industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Great Bang Debate: Everyday Chaos & Humorous Updates

• Camilla’s Journey with Her Bangs:
  Camilla shares a comedic update about trimming her bangs, defying her hairdresser's advice not to try at home.

  “Cut to 12 hours later, I was in the bathroom and I found a pair of scissors that looked very sharp, actually.” (00:55, Camilla)

• Social Media Influence:
  The hosts joke about how internet “expertise” emboldened Camilla to try the twist-cut method she saw on TikTok.
  • Jessica: “Doesn't everyone know not to do this? Like, isn't the whole reason that you watch the real because it ends badly and you laugh?” (01:40)

2. Nice vs. Kind: An Unexpected Emotional Rabbit Hole

• A Real-Life Example:
  Jessica recounts saying yes to helping a friend two months in advance, only for everything to go wrong that day. She questions her own motives—was she being genuinely kind or just nice?

  “I was trying to be nice. And all of a sudden... people had been contemplating what the difference is between being nice and being kind.” (04:48, Jessica)

• Defining the Difference:
  • Being Nice: About social performance and managing self-perception.

    “Being nice is all about you... It benefits your idea of yourself. It is about an outward facing perception.” (06:28, Jessica)

  • Being Kind: Centered on the other person’s needs, often requiring uncomfortable honesty.

    “Kind is actually about the other person, what the other person might need in any given moment.” (07:07, Jessica)

3. Vulnerability & Courage: The Cost of Each Choice

• Comfort vs. Courage:
  • “Niceness looks comfortable and kindness takes courage.” (12:19, Jessica)
  • Kindness often means risking discomfort, both for yourself and in your relationships.
• Honesty in Friendship:
  Camilla and Jessica recognize that their deep friendship allows for blunt, kind honesty—something riskier or impossible in less established relationships.

  “Because sometimes, you're a real dick. And I'm like, all right... But I never put it in that bucket. I'm never like, oh, that's mean.” (09:26, Jessica)

4. Gender and Social Expectations

• Women & the Performative Nature of Niceness:
  The hosts ponder whether women are especially socialized to default to niceness, and whether men think about these distinctions.

  “I don't think guys are thinking fucking about this at all. So then... is this part of just, like, the thing that's been baked into us, as women, where we feel like we have to be nice?” (16:39, Camilla)

5. Work, Parenting, and “Fortune Favors the Bold”

• Professional Connections:
  • Camilla wonders whether CEOs and leaders are more “nice” or “kind,” and Jessica suggests answers may be generational.
• What We Teach Our Kids:
  Jessica is emphatic that she wants her children to be kind—even if it costs them friendships:

  “I want my kids to be kind... even if they lose friends over it, then they weren't the right friends.” (19:45, Jessica)

• Kindness, Politeness, and Packaging Honesty:
  They reflect on the value of being both kind and polite, and debate whether honesty must be softened for easier consumption.

  “Are you taking kind...and having to package it a little bit in politeness to make it more appealing to the other person to consume?” (21:02, Camilla)

6. Memorable Illustrations & Scenarios (Role Play Segment)

• Plane Seat Swap (31:07):
  Camilla struggles with deciding whether moving for a family on a plane is nice, kind, or both.
  • Jessica: “Being nice is a social performance… Kind… the primary beneficiary is someone else.” (33:18)
• Bachelorette Party Dilemma (34:02):
  What’s the kind thing to do—say yes to please the bride, or honestly decline?
• Friend’s Outfit Choice (37:08):
  Would you tell your friend an outfit looks terrible, or just be “nice” and say nothing?

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Jessica, on nice vs. kind:

  “Kind takes courage. And can we add to the courage it takes time.” (35:48)

• Camilla, observing the complexity:

  “I think actually think nice versus kind is super complicated.” (19:35)

• Jessica, reframing the social script for women:

  “It's the invitation now to reframe that. You're not being a diva by being kind or honest. You're being truthful in any—fill in the blank with the situation.” (24:02)

• On exhaustion and defaulting to nice:

  “I think it's more exhausting to be nice.” (22:29, Camilla)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:18 – Camilla’s bang update, TikTok hair advice
• 03:16 – Jessica’s story about overcommitting, the struggle to say no
• 05:11 – The nice vs. kind Instagram revelation
• 06:28 – Definitions: “Nice is about you, kind is about the other person”
• 12:19 – Courage it takes to be kind
• 14:27 – Jessica’s personal moment of receiving kindness from a friend
• 16:39 – Gender and socialization (“I don't think guys are thinking...about this at all”)
• 19:45 – Raising kids to be kind, not just nice
• 21:02 – Packaging kindness with politeness for easier delivery
• 31:07 – Role play: plane seat swap scenario
• 34:02 – Role play: declining a bachelorette party
• 37:08 – Role play: telling your friend her outfit is a disaster
• 38:08 – Friendship as earned safety for honest kindness

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Episode Tone & Style

• Language: Conversational, raw, self-deprecating, and infused with humor.
• The hosts readily admit their own confusion, laugh at their misadventures, and are open about not having all the answers—making the discussion feel intimate and relatable.

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Closing Thoughts

Jessica and Camilla invite listeners to examine their own lives for where they are being “nice” versus “kind,” and how this distinction may affect their friendships, work, and parenting. They challenge the instinct to people-please, especially for women, and encourage choosing kindness—even if it feels uncomfortable or bold.

“Fortune favors the bold. And what I'm seeing now is that kindness is the courageous choice, which would also equal the bold choice.” (24:19, Jessica)

Listeners are encouraged to share their own scenarios or realizations about niceness and kindness by reaching out in the podcast's DMs or comments.

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For further engagement:

• DM or comment with your “nice vs. kind” scenarios for the hosts to weigh in on future episodes.

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This summary recreates the spirit, depth, and humor of the conversation, echoing the hosts' openness and call for self-reflection—making it valuable for both new listeners and regular fans.

Transcript

[A]

I'm Jessica Capshaw.

[B]

And I'm Camilla Ludington. And welcome to another episode of We Ride at Dawnish. Jess, I just. I. I want to give the update that no one's asked for.

[A]

Oh, dear.

[B]

Just. I'm just gonna dive into something that's been on my mind.

[A]

Yeah, tell me.

[B]

And on my head.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

The bangs.

[A]

I was gonna say it's not your headphones.

[B]

It's not my headphones, it's the bangs. So I just want to tell you what has.

[A]

Can we just. Can we also just talk about the fact that if someone listen. If you haven't listened already, you definitely need to go back and listen to her bang on about her bangs in episode two in order to be fully ready for whatever update we're about to get. Okay, hit me.

[B]

I feel like they're gonna be multiple updates because this is like a new journey that I'm on.

[A]

Oh, my God. And because also, you need to know that they're non existent. The bangs. They're non existent bangs. And she's going to give us an update on them. Go.

[B]

Okay. So I talked to Justine, who cut my bangs, and she said to me, the reason that I think you're having a little trouble styling them right now is they're growing out a little bit. They've already grown out. And she said, when you see me next, I'm going to give you a little bang trim. Do not trim them yourself. And I said, I would never. Are you kidding me? I would never do that. Cut to 12 hours later, I was in the bathroom and I found a pair of scissors that looked very sharp, actually.

[A]

Hair cutting scissors, haircutting scissors.

[B]

And so what I have seen on social media that I thought would be the way to go is you. You. You kind of wet them and you bring them in the middle. And then. Have you seen this? You do a little twist.

[A]

I was gonna say, if any. Doesn't everyone know not to do this? Like, isn't the whole reason that you watch the real. Because it ends badly and you laugh?

[B]

The problem is, I feel like, though with TikTok, you sort of feel like you're maybe an expert.

[A]

And also, I've really only seen toddlers do it. So this is a grown up.

[B]

Exactly. I knew. Don't get me wrong, I know not to do like a boom across, right. But I have seen this new, fantastic way of doing it, which is just a twist. You hold them and then you take the scissors like this and you don't cut where you want the length to Be you cut a little bit longer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I.

[A]

By a lot. I would start a lot a lot.

[B]

By kind of a lot. But I'd already. But I already have bangs, right? So this wasn't like a new thing. So I did the little twist. She hasn't even, I haven't even told her yet. She's gonna be horrified. I, I did the twist and I did that and the length is not bad. The problem that I realized is, is that it's a, it's still a blunt cut across and you gotta like do one of these. I don't know how to get into the little. Feather it out or, or, or.

[A]

Because you're not a professional. Because she, she actually the professional only gave you one thing. She only gave you one assignment and you did not understand it or I

[B]

understood, but I was almost inspired. So anyway, the bangs are banging. I'm giving a bang date an update.

[A]

Again, if you're watching on YouTube, you can't see any bangs. So I don't know, you're going to not know what she's talking about.

[B]

It's.

[A]

You're listening, you can maybe imagine that you see bangs, a whisper of them. But we'll hop on over to the

[B]

YouTube and see what sort of expert tease I've done to this hair.

[A]

Okay, well, I'm going to tell you what's top of mind for me. I.

[B]

Very recently, it won't be as important, but it's fine.

[A]

Obviously not as important as bangs or bang situation or non existent bangs. But here's what's happening and it's top of mind for me. So a very dear friend of mine asked me if I would come and I would help her with something that was very off my beaten path. And it was a date way out in the future. Like she really was. Like, it was two months from when she asked me and it was a very virtuous cause. And I of course, immediately said yes. Like, of course I will help you. I can see that far into the future. My guy will clear the calendar, I will hold that date. All that. So the day comes and I'm still happy that I'm doing it. I know that it's, you know, it feels like the right thing to do, but everything has gone wrong on this date. Everyone else in my life needs me on this date, of course, in real ways. And I've protected this date to go do something that's, you know, like I said, it's still virtuous, but it's not like the end all be all. But I've done it because I know that it's the right thing to do. So then I get going, and it is one thing after another. I. I literally spill coffee all over the front of my white blouse. I miss the train. Like, everything that could go wrong goes wrong. And I am clearly at a depleted level. I am in the negative sector, and I am like, why did I say yes to this? I don't even want to go. I don't even.

[B]

I just.

[A]

I don't. I. Why did I say nice this. And. And I was talking to a friend, and she was like, well, why did you say I was like, because I was trying to be nice. And all of a sudden there'd been a seed planted. And. And I think it was an Instagram conversation, like one of those Instagram reels or trailers for something. I don't know, probably a podcast where people had been contemplating what the difference is between being nice and being kind.

[B]

Nice versus kind.

[A]

Yes. And I thought they were the same.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Yes.

[A]

It turns out they're radically different.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Okay, tell me more.

[A]

And it turns out that I talk to my children about. And I think that I hold in higher regard the idea of being kind, but that often I am nice. And I'm gonna. I would like to. I mean. Well, do you know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Or does that confuse you, too?

[A]

Did you think they were the same thing?

[B]

I would have. I would have grouped them together to be radically different. That's. I don't. Like. I think we need to dive in. Okay. First off, I have to say, I can't believe you committed to something two months out. Wild.

[A]

I understand. And I know better. By the way. Well, and also by the way, I'm just gonna say, for the record, if she's listening, it did turn out to be one of those things where it's like, it's really hard to get to the gym, but once you go to the gym, you're happy you went.

[B]

Yeah, I'm happy.

[A]

I did.

[B]

Events. Incredible.

[A]

And I. Yes, all that. But I. But my reason, like, my origin story of why I said yes was because I was trying to be nice. And now.

[B]

So can I.

[A]

Can I tell you what it turns out is the difference?

[B]

Please.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So in the most reduced form, the difference between being nice and kind is that being nice is all about you. This is very. Hang on.

[B]

So being nice is all about you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it benefits you.

[A]

Yes. Because it benefits your idea of yourself.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

It is about an outward facing perception of you. You've done the nice thing. You behaved in a nice way. Right.

[B]

Okay. So you saying yes was like, you know, you wanted to show that you were supportive. Right. All the things. Okay.

[A]

And kind is actually about the other

[B]

person,

[A]

what the other person might need in any given moment. So the reason why I think they sit so, so close to each other and we get them all so confused is because obviously you could come up with all the different points about how committing to something two months in advance and going to whatever it was I was thinking about the other person. I was being kind. But the reason why I didn't did it and said it wasn't a hundred percent kind. It was. It was that I was being. I was being nice. I was giving the easy answer. I was. I was not giving an uncomfortable answer,

[B]

which is like, what would the kind answer have been? Oh.

[A]

Oh, gosh. Okay. So I'm imagining that the kind answer in that instance would have been, I love you so much. I would love to show up for you in this way. It is two months in advance. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's so many variables in my life, and I really feel like I shouldn't be the person that you rely on for this thing. But I love you so much. And when I get to a different part of my life, when I can actually plan two months in advance and. And know that with certainty that I can show up in that way, I. I will do that in all day long.

[B]

So then I have a. I have

[A]

a question that would have been saying no to her, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. So I have a question, because I hear that there's a lot of honesty behind kind that maybe nice doesn't carry. And my. My question to you is, is, do you. Would you have felt comfortable. Would you feel comfortable being kind to anybody if you did not know this person very well? Do they immediately get the nice answer? Does the kind answer depend on how close you are? Because, like, are they gonna judge you for the, like, hey, I don't know what's going on tomorrow.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? Like, does it hinge on how close you are as yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

I think so. And I think that you. I think that being kind actually requires relationship. I think that being kind, because you have to be. You have to feel safe enough to know. Emotionally safe. I mean, in my instance, obviously, but I think you would have to feel like if that someone could handle your kindness.

[B]

That's.

[A]

Which came in the form of a

[B]

no, it's funny because I'm thinking of you and me and then we're always kind.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because sometimes we have to be dicks.

[B]

Like, you're never nice. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, because sometimes. Yeah, because sometimes you're a real dick. And I'm like, all right. But yeah, it's never. But I never put it in that bucket. I'm never like, oh, that's mean. I'm never thinking. She's not, she's not being. She's not being nice to me. You just might be saying something I don't, I don't want to hear. I'm not ready to hear.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I do always value it and I consider it. And ultimately ends. It ends up being. If you've said something to me that would, you know, if you just slash it on the COVID of a newspaper or got a sound clip, you'd be like, oh, that was mean. Because. Because that's the thing that that comes up, is that kindness can sound mean. It can sound harsh and direct. Which, by the way, interestingly enough, was pointed out recently is a little bit what people say about the difference in the coasts between LA and New York. Right? Like, New York is very, like, direct, harsh.

[B]

Okay, so like, lean into, kind.

[A]

Leans into kind of. Will tell you when you look shitty. Will tell you when you shouldn't wear that. We'll tell you when you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, we'll tell you when someone's not good at their job. But in la, the big joke is always like, when, when, like, what do people say when they don't like something? I love it, it's true.

[B]

But I'm listening to you and my question is, is that, like, I do feel like maybe certain people don't want kind, though, which is a diff. Which is a whole different part of this conversation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And in which case, if you know that person wants nice, do you still give them the kind answer or response?

[A]

That's a case by case basis. But again, if you were going for, if you went back to the performative part of Nice la, New York. Yeah, it's like, nice people want to hear that, you know, that's why, I mean, you hear so many people talk about people that are surrounded by people who say, yes, right. You want to hear that you look great, that you're going great, everything's going great. I mean, it's almost, you know, it's comedic on some level. Um, but that the kindness is really like, what does the other person need from me?

[B]

In this moment, now that you've thought about this conversation, now that you've thought about these things in two different ways. Right. Are you operating differently in your life?

[A]

I see it everywhere now, yes. Because nice is so much more comfortable. And quite frankly, it's a default setting for me. I'm noticing all the ways in which I just default to nice.

[B]

Well, I think it's a default setting for probably a lot of people.

[A]

No, I've met a couple of them.

[B]

Really. You know what's funny is because you're saying, like, the nice versus kind, like east and west coast. I think in England, we are more blunt, and I think that we're more kind. Although it's hard because, like, when does kindness lean into mean? When is the blunt.

[A]

Well, go back to the definition, which is that you're thinking about the other. So you're actually saying the thing that. That the. That you think the other person needs here. So it's like, so kindness. Sorry, Niceness looks comfortable, and kindness takes courage. So kindness. Kindnesses.

[B]

Wait. I love that I have the courage

[A]

to say, because I trust in this relationship, or you've asked me a question, I have the courage to give you my answer and know that it'll be okay. Do you notice when you pick niceness, or do you. I mean, you're very. But you're like. You're very direct. I find you.

[B]

I'm pretty direct. Yeah. I think that my. I think my default is honestly kind. But it's hard because it almost feels. And maybe this sounds weird, maybe this makes me sound awful, but, like, I'm not necessarily thinking about the other person.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, you don't have to. Like, I'm not. I don't feel like I'm necessarily servicing them. I feel like I'm just being, like, honest. Like, I'm sorry, I can't, because I don't know if it's. It. I think what's. What's really difficult and complicated about this conversation, actually, is that you're thinking about what the other person needs, but the answer may not be what they need.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? Like, she needed you to come to her event.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The kind answer is like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it. Like. Yeah. And yet you went anyway. So then it's just caught. It's more complicated.

[A]

It's complicated. I mean, but it's interesting because it's like. But nice can cost you more because.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, nice.

[A]

Another thing that's kind of come up. And I've been. I've been so. I've been so. What I've been noticing is I've been noticing when I feel that and asking myself those questions, like, is this nice or is this kind? And also like, is this true or am I making this up in my brain in a conversation with myself?

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, obviously.

[A]

But I've been. I've been pausing to notice the difference. And then I've also been noticing in other people, like, my love language is words of affirmation. How much do I prompt people to be nice to me instead of kind to me? Right. Because that looks like what I need from them as an actress, you know?

[B]

I know. Like, hello, give me a nice. All day long.

[A]

Yeah. But, you know, it's. It's funny. I also had another example, and I was so grateful for it and I was so uncomfortable while it was happening. That's not fair to me, actually. I wasn't uncomfortable. I was just like, I was on my heels. I was not. I was not center in the saddle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My feet got out of the stirrups and I was a little wobbly.

[B]

You're a little Camilla on the horse

[A]

that look him on the horse. I. I was in a situation with a friend where I was just. I. I had like, blinders on. I was like. I just. There was a blind spot where I was asking her a bunch of questions about, like, how I could show up in this way. And I'd completely just forgotten her in the equation. And she finally got to the point where she truly just, like, had a little bit of a. Like, it just. The dam broke and she went, you know what? Quite frankly, I don't actually even. Sounds like I have get invited to so many places, by the way, if you can't come, I don't want you to come. I want you to come because you want to come. I don't want to come because it's been made convenient for you to come. And quite frankly, I feel like, you know, there's a lot of ways in which I've been showing up for you in this way and you're not in this way. And. And I. And I listened and she was totally right. And it was kind of her to stop me in this moment of just not really recognizing what was happening and say it was like a little bit of, like, it was like a correction, but it wasn't condescending and it wasn't. She didn't have a shit fit. She didn't have. Wasn't Mean, it wasn't, it was kind. It was like, hey, check in.

[B]

That conversation with someone other than you is tricky. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, because you are hearing it and you're like, okay, great. And I know that you can do that as a friend. I know I can be real with you in the same way too.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I don't think it's true for other people. And then that. And then. So is being kind potentially jeopardizing your friendship? Yes.

[A]

And then bigger juicier question would be if you take, if you take friend inventory. Like, yeah, I hope that everyone comes back with, oh, I'm kind with all my best friends. Because that's what you would want.

[B]

Yes. Yes. Can I say something?

[A]

You can say all the things.

[B]

I don't think guys are thinking fucking about this at all. So then my, so that I'm thinking right now, is this part of just like the thing that has been baked in to us, One of the many fucking things has been baked into us as like women where we feel like we have to be nice and now we're struggling with like, hey, actually, like blunt honesty.

[A]

Yes. Because, because again, the blunt honesty and like the, the, the feels very authoritative. Right. It feels like someone who's in someone, someone who's being boss. Like they, they know what's up and so they say what's up. They give the direction and they kind of, they, they say, they, they tell it like it, you know, they tell it like it is. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I would be curious. I would actually be curious if like, if you took people that are like CEOs of companies, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you, and you took like a litmus test of like their, the way they got to, where they got to whether overall they gave nice or kind. Like which one are they giving out?

[A]

Well, okay, so now I'm gonna throw, I'm gonna throw in there. I actually think that this answer probably would be generational. It, it kind of pinged me when you said like, do guys think about this? I think that different generations think different ways. I think if you pulled a 15 year old young male, a 25 year old, a 35 year old, a 45 and so on. I think they would have different answers because I actually do think there's conversations being had in the 15 and 25, maybe even 35 year old category that are what, that are like mindful of what kindness looks like in work. And like there's books being written that are called things like, you know, leaders eat last and, like, you know, I don't know. I feel like there are CEOs that are at least trying to sell that the ethos behind their. Their brand is, like, you know, is goodness. I mean, I don't know. Maybe I'm being just nice, so.

[B]

No, no, but see, it's like, this is why I could have this conversation for a really long time, because I feel like, where does goodness lie, though? Because sometimes the kindness might feel selfish.

[A]

Right. Wait, in what way?

[B]

Okay, say I was invited to an event, and I'm like, oh, it's two months out. Like, I don't know. I'm so stressed. But technically, like, I can go, right? Is if I. I give the nice answer of, like, I can make that event. I'm gonna make that event.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

The kind answer is I don't really want to go. Like, I'm so busy. I'm so overwhelmed. That, to me, feels like the selfish answer, even though it's the real one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even though I'm. I'm telling you, like, I don't want to go. I don't want to get dressed up. I don't want to do the thing. I don't feel like socializing. I'll have a panic attack. Like, all the things.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I think it's so comp. I think actually think nice versus kind is super complicated. I. I do, too.

[A]

And I think that it lives in the ish. I mean, I think it truly sits squarely in the ish.

[B]

So I think, what are we teaching our kids? Like, if we go, I want my kids to be patient.

[A]

I want my kids to be kind. I want my kids, even if they lose. I'm adding it. I'm adding, in a word, even if

[B]

they lose friends over it, then they

[A]

weren't the right friends. Okay. I'm being bold in this direction because I have been bold in the direction of kindness recently and been a little, like, I'm. I'm working on seeing where that is and. And. And being okay. Being uncomfortable by saying no or by saying, like, I don't love how that sounded, like, I don't love what you just said to me. Or do you want to. Like, am I. I'm hearing this. Is this what you meant to say? And then getting clear, because I do want to give the benefit of the doubt, but if the person says, like, yeah, I did mean to say go yourself, then I'm like, I'm not gonna be nice about it, or whatever that is. Right. So I think that for my kids, I would want Them to be kind, and I would want them. And I would want for them to be polite. So that's where the other thing comes in, because I'm a very. You spend a lot of time with me. I'm polite.

[B]

Yeah, you are. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, everyone's got their days, but I'm polite. I have. I. I think manners are very important, and I think that people who understand how to say please and thank you and truly appreciate what's going on around them, I mean, I think it should be a given, but I. I definitely know that I find it very charming.

[B]

My question now is, are you taking kind, though, and having to package it a little bit in politeness to make it more appealing to the other person to consume? Do you know what I mean? Like, are you.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that would go back to, like, who in your life do you feel safe around? And who can you be your. Your. Your real self? Like, your. Your messy real self? Because, by the way, in this case that I started with, I mean, there also is the part where I say, you know, I really don't plan something two months in advance. I love you so much. Really want to show up, really can't. But how does that make you feel? And then she says, really fucking bad. I want you to be there, and I need you to be there.

[B]

Yeah. So what. How does that shake out?

[A]

I don't know. Didn't happen. I just went like I said it was good.

[B]

I know you did. But then do you regret in not being kind? Because I would imagine that you don't regret.

[A]

No, that's what. Is what I said. I regret the coffee on my shirt and the miss Train and the frustration. And I think that's what I'm also looking for is like, the shortcut, I think in understanding nice versus kind, it might actually present a shortcut to a clearer and better path. Knowing that it's going to be okay, even if you give someone an answer that they're not hoping for, I think is a better way to live. Aspiring to be kind, I think, is a better way to live than aspiring to be nice.

[B]

I think it's more exhausting to be nice.

[A]

Yes. I think.

[B]

I think it's more draining.

[A]

Really hit for me. I think it's. I think it is exhausting to be nice.

[B]

Yeah. And.

[A]

And I'm. I'm a little recovering people pleaser slash perfectionist. I just went to. But I'm gonna brush it off. I'm gonna br. Feeling right now because it's not real. I'm a little Like, I went straight to being, like, disappointed in myself for not knowing the difference. Like, not knowing that this existed and that not knowing that I was engaging and being nice. By the way, nothing is ever all one thing, right? Like, there was lots of cases where I was nice and I could have been kind. There's plenty of ways in which I was kind. It's just that, I don't know, like I said, putting attention on it has sort of illuminated all these different things, and now I just sort of see things differently.

[B]

I'm seeing it in different places.

[A]

And I guess it's a question for, like, you know, the people listening, too. Like, where does this show up in your life?

[B]

Yeah, I want to know that. I. I'm gonna throw us a bone here, though, because. And I 100% believe it probably happens in every single industry. I just have not been part of any other industry.

[A]

Right.

[B]

As actresses in our industry, 100%, we have been sold that we need to be nice. And I think that is something that is really hard to course correct in a way that doesn't feel like you're being a diva or going to be. Or be afraid that you're going to be something.

[A]

But that's. And that's exactly right, is that it's the invitation now to reframe

[B]

that.

[A]

Like, you're not being a diva by being kind or honest. You're. You're being truthful in any. And I mean, you know, fill in the blank with the situation. But I think that it's also. It made me think that. I remember I was, like, coming up in jobs, and honestly, from, like, you know, my first job as a hostess at a restaurant to a bunch of different jobs in between, to acting, to podcasting, to all the things, mothering all the things. I. I feel like there's a. A learning curve where you're checking in with yourself about all the things, but you are looking around because comparison is human. And didn't you always see people, women or men, that were just, like, bold in a way that somehow didn't look so nice, but they were currying favor with everyone around them, or they were doing well, or they were climbing the ranks or whatever? Because I did. And I remember being like, well, she's not being nice, or he's not being nice, and isn't it nice that gets rewarded? And no, I don't fucking think so. I think that fortune favors the bold. And what I'm seeing now is that kindness is the courageous choice, which would also equal the bold choice. So I guess What I'm trying to say at the end of the day is look around yourself and see where you're being nice and where you're being kind. And even just with this tidbit of, like, unwinding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And maybe like, you know, pop in the hood and looking at your own wiring. I know. I mean, I can. I mean, I know as an oldest daughter, as all the things I just said before, I've certainly been pointed in a certain direction, but I think it's been kind of wild to, like, look at that and challenge myself to look at it differently, trust myself to feel a little differently, give myself permission to feel a little differently, and. And then trust that it's gonna be okay.

[B]

Well, I think that, like, part of that. Part of that piece that then makes it more comfortable to be offering up kindness is the polite aspect of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Like, you can. You can be honest and actually be a dick. Right. And that's. And be. And that's not. That doesn't land as kind to me. You still have to be. I. I don't know if polite's the word, though. Like, I'm trying to figure out, like, what.

[A]

I know the word I actually like feel. I think it is. I think, because, you know what it actually kind of reminds me of. It also reminds me of what I remember when I, like, I remember moving back to New York. I was. I was doing something where I was interviewing and I called someone for references on someone, and I said, you know, is this person good at, you know, whatever? I went through all the things that you asked when you're hiring someone, and the answers were all lovely, the person was so great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And at the very end, which I. I thought was like a solid reference, and this person was saying, yes, go hire this person. I said, would you hire her to do the job? And she said, no, oh, no, I wouldn't. And I was like, wait, what?

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

And she said, she's a really nice person. And all the questions you asked me, I answered honestly. But I don't think she's good at the things that you're saying the job requires. And I have to tell you, I was shook because I couldn't, because I. I don't know. I mean, I going to have to ask myself questions on my drive home tonight. But what I feel long game is I felt really thankful. I was really grateful. She said, I don't think she'd be good at the job because I didn't hire her. And I guess we'll never know. But I appreciated that she said that. She didn't glad hand me that. She didn't. She didn't say the nice thing. She didn't just, like, pass on the referral and say, yeah, that's great to hire her. She was. She was. She was kind to me. She was kind to a stranger.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. Definitely need more of that. Yes, definitely need more.

[A]

But why does that make us uncomfortable? Like, would you have done that? If someone called you for a reference of someone that you thought was really great and you wanted good things for them, would you say, like, no, I don't think you should hire her?

[B]

I think if it came down, I mean, I guess I kind of would because I feel like kind. That's what I would want.

[A]

See again.

[B]

Right. That's why it would be, you know, working on this, what a reference sort of is. It's hard because I understand. I don't know. I think it's important to probably be honest about your experience. And if I heard someone say, like, I need this, then maybe I would say, like, well, they would be perfect if this was your scenario, but for this, maybe a better fit for somebody else.

[A]

Yeah, I think I could do that. Look at me. It's tough. I'm like, I need. I need, like, a warmup. I need someone to, like, you know, pump me up for the event in which I say no or say that.

[B]

Yeah, I definitely think that it's. This is so interesting because I really didn't think there was much of a difference.

[A]

There's a huge difference. Huge.

[B]

I know.

[A]

No, I'm telling you. Start to look at it this week. Just look around you. Look at the ways in which you accept something, answer something, whatever. Whatever. Whatever. It's. It'll start blowing your mind. And now, because you know it or you're listening to it, it'll activate that part of your brain that a doctor would give a technical name to. That is the thing that starts to reckon. Like, you know how, like, whenever you're looking for a new. If you're thinking about getting a new car and you're, like, thinking about whatever it is, and then you're out in the world and you start to. They're everywhere.

[B]

See that? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Now.

[A]

Now it's that part of your brain that just got activated. Now the rest of the week, you're gonna be like, was that nice or was that kind of.

[B]

I'm interested. To actually, like, take a little inventory on what my default really is. Because I. I think it's kindness I think you're right.

[A]

I think you're right.

[B]

But that's because you're used to me being bluntly honest with you all the time.

[A]

Yes, but I also like.

[B]

But I think my world, though.

[A]

Yes. And I think that my deep. My default with you is kind. Yeah, I, I noticed that I have different defaults with different people, which is why I was saying, I do think a lot of this has to do with the kind of relationship you're in. So again, if you are looking for different cars and you start seeing them everywhere, look around you at the people that you find yourself being nice to and the people who you find yourself being kind to. And what is the key difference?

[B]

Guys, dive into our. Slip into our dms. Let us know. Let us know if you guys have. I have never. I have never heard the difference between nice and kind. I'm curious if I'm one of the only people.

[A]

Well, it's a hot topic and. Or my Instagram algorithm knows that I'm, you know, I'm doing deep dives on nice versus kind because now I'm getting it served everywhere. I think, I think it's a conversation.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

For those of you who heard it. Well, you heard it here first, so you heard it here first. And for any of the other ones, then, please, yes, slide it to our DMs, slide into our comments and let us know what you think.

[B]

Okay. Give me some scenarios and I'm going to tell you. Nice. Be kind. We'll do a little.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right. Okay. So you're, you're traveling and you're not traveling for work. So you likely did not spring for any fancy seat. You're in row 35 and you've got a, You've got an aisle. You got an aisle seat and.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you got.

[B]

I don't mind an aisle. You know, I like to get up, use the bathroom, not have to crawl.

[A]

I actually, I actually prefer it. Anyways, so a family comes in and they ask you to reorient yourself and it lands you with a middle seat and it's a six hour flight. What's your answer? Well. What's your answer?

[B]

It's so hard because if it's like, young, I have such a weight. This is a tr. This is a very tricky one for me because I know that everyone's like, don't ever move for the family. But, like, I understand how like, I've gotten on a flight and they've literally flipped my seats.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They've separated my family and I haven't known about it. It's not being me, being lazy. They're like, oh, whoopsie daisy. Just ask the person. I'm sure they'll move for you. And then, you know, next thing you know, you're going viral because. Because someone's like, this bitch. I think it was a family with young kids and they really needed it. I would move, which is not. Well, this is hot. This is really hard for you.

[A]

I know. This is actually hard thing to do because you're doing it for others, but

[B]

I'm doing it for others. So it's the nice thing to do, but the kind thing for myself. This is where kindness feels maybe a little bit selfish to me. The kind thing from me, the honest thing, is like, hold on.

[A]

You know, I brought notes because I felt like we were gonna have a little bit of a moment. Hold on. Do you remember what happens when the glasses get on?

[B]

Oh, God. Okay. The glasses just means business.

[A]

She means business. Because here's the thing in the real difference between nice versus kind, remember, we have to go back to the fact that being nice is a social performance, and it's about managing how you are perceived. And the primary beneficiary of that is you. Kind. Well, it is other faces.

[B]

If I'm moving seats for the outward appearance of, like, eyeballs are on me on the plane, and everyone's like, is she gonna do it? You know, phones are out.

[A]

So really, it's just. Maybe I just teed up a hard choice because. Because it's actually kind to move. It's not just being nice because it's about other. Right. The primary beneficiary.

[B]

Maybe there are situations where, like, you're. It. They're. They're. It's all mixed in there. It's okay.

[A]

Maybe I have a better one. You have a good one for you. You have one for me?

[B]

Yeah, I do.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Because I think this happens all the time.

[A]

I just. As soon as I said, bring it on, I got nervous. Go ahead. Sweaty armpits.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He's getting a little sweaty.

[A]

Go, go.

[B]

Okay, ready for this? Because I hear this all the time.

[A]

Go.

[B]

You have been invited to a bachelorette party with a bunch of girls that you don't really know because you were like, old high school friend, or you're like the new college friend, or like, it's. You know that it's going to be a social situation. Maybe it's a trip for two days and you're like, I'm going to be so uncomfortable. I don't Like, I just. It's. It's not me. We're going to Vegas and I don't drink or I. We're going here, and I. That's not my vibe. And I don't really like this one girl. Duh, duh, duh is saying yes. Saying yes is clearly according to this definition. The nice thing to do, the kind thing to do, is to say, hey, this is not my vibe for all these reasons. And I don't feel like going yes. However, it's super disappointing to the bride. Right. Like, you're one of the bridesmaids, so.

[A]

Right. But I think kind takes courage. And can we add to the courage it. Add. It takes time. Because I think that in that. First of all, you asked me the question during every single description, like, every single descriptor of the trip for me in my life, the answer would be no. It would actually not be hard for me to say no. That being said, for me, the courage plus time. The time part would be, I feel strongly that the next step is not immediately saying no, but saying to. To my friend, I love you. I want to celebrate you. I really don't love that kind of celebration. And I don't. I. So far, I love being with you one on one. Or I would love to. How does it feel for us to celebrate you in a. In a different way that, like, that. That I would also be really excited about. Like, how does that feel for you? And if they were like, hard. Stop. No, you have to. Whatever. I think I would probably reevaluate that friendship. But my guess is that she would say, I get it because she knows me and understands me and I'm.

[B]

And yeah, this is where, like, trying

[A]

to not go and have a shitty time and have everyone else. I mean.

[B]

Yes. But I guess, like, the nice thing to do is you go and you put up the front of like, you're having a blast, and then you go home, you talk to whoever is in your house. You're like, no. If you go and use.

[A]

If you go and fake it, that's performative. That's nice.

[B]

Yes, it is nice. But I'm saying, like, do I think. But is the. This is why I'm like, this is tripping me up. This is where I'm like, is it? But it's not. It's less selfish just to go and suck it up for two days for your friend that you love and be like, listen, this sucks, but I'm gonna do it for her.

[A]

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I, I, if I, I

[B]

have to tell you, though, in my opinion, if I'm the bride and they don't want to go, I don't. I have no problem with being like, it's totally fine. We'll do something else.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, to my friend's point, I know

[B]

girls would not be okay with.

[A]

Yeah. What?

[B]

I know girls. That would not be.

[A]

It would be, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, suck it up for like a couple of days. I, I see, I see. Sort of like the different.

[A]

Okay, let me give you, Let me give you, like, the most. This is like the most baseline nice versus kind question. I think that you could probably go for it.

[B]

Hit me. I'm ready.

[A]

You come over, we're gonna get ready for something together.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then we're gonna go somewhere together and you come over in your regular clothes and you bring the outfit you're gonna wear that night and you're like, you know, one outfit. You have one outfit that you brought, and we're gonna get ready together, and we're getting ready. And then you go to put on your outfit and you come out and it's awful. It's a terrible, terrible. Oh, fuck.

[B]

It's me and you. You would say, like, that's a fucking disaster, Ludington, but this is.

[A]

You two. We have to order it. I think most people wouldn't. They'd be like, great. And they'd be like, that's not a friend.

[B]

We've probably literally had this scenario. It's hard to use us because I always know that a. It's not going to sabotage our friendship in any way. There's going to be no, like, you know, passive aggressive, like, ignoring each other, punishment after for being honest, which is a real consequence in some friendships, which, by the way, those friendships suck. Right?

[A]

I was gonna say, but you're also talking about. We're talking about our friendship, which is like, it's such a privilege because it's earned. Right? I mean, how long have we known each other? We choose each other.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

We've been through the ups with the downs, centuries and centuries, and again, we just keep it going.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. This is. I'm gonna have to think about this because case by case basis, I might have to be nice.

[A]

Wait, you're going back to nice now?

[B]

I don't know, Jess.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I'm gonna be. I'm gonna try and be kind, but I might have to fake it till I make it.

[A]

Well, I think that's what everybody's doing. Don't worry. I think you're in good company.

[B]

Listen, I represent the West Coast.

[A]

I'm over here. I know I'm gonna get so many LA haters. I don't get my green cheese a thing. It's a joke because it's true.

[B]

All right, if you guys have an opinion on nice versus kind, please leave us a message in the comments. And join us next week for another episode of We Ride at

[A]

Ish Ish. Please and thank you. I'm going to be polite about it,

[B]

Sam.