Podcast Summary: "A New Era? – with Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi"

Podcast: Call Me Back (with Dan Senor), Ark Media
Episode Date: October 3, 2025
Guests: Donniel Hartman, Yossi Klein Halevi (Shalom Hartman Institute)
Theme: Presenting the challenges and dilemmas facing Israelis to a global audience, in context of President Trump’s proposed Gaza peace plan.

Overview

This episode is a cross-post from the podcast "For Heaven's Sake" by the Shalom Hartman Institute, discussing the newly unveiled Trump Gaza Peace Plan. Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi reflect on its implications—not just for Israeli politics, but for the moral and psychological climate of Israeli society as it enters what could be a pivotal new phase after a long period of war, trauma, and political paralysis. The conversation explores whether this plan signals the dawn of a “new era” and how Israelis should (or could) respond, emotionally, politically, and spiritually.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Significance of the Trump Gaza Peace Plan

• Restoring Moral Clarity:

  • Yossi: “Trump has forced Netanyahu to commit to a credible, a morally credible vision of the morning after the war. First time.” [04:01]
  • The absence of far-right positions (e.g. reoccupation, settlements) in the 21 points is a notable departure.
  • The plan’s focus: Ending Hamas rule, allowing Gazans to leave and return, and inviting Arab—and possibly Turkish—support.

• Moral Legitimacy & Political Dimension:

  • Two moral imperatives:
    1. Protecting innocent lives (widely emphasized internationally).
    2. “Not to grant evil the last word” [05:26]—to actively defeat it, within humane constraints.
  • Yossi: “By committing to a morning after that gives the Palestinians some way out, it restores the legitimacy and the urgency of defeating evil.” [06:06]
  • Donniel: “This plan puts the focus again on Hamas’s evil and on the necessity to remove their ability to determine the future of Gaza.” [07:44]

2. Shift in Global and Domestic Discourse

• Refocusing on October 7
  • The plan is seen as shifting attention back from Israeli actions under scrutiny, to the original “evil” of the Hamas attack on October 7.
  • The co-hosts critique the “moral confusion” of treating Hamas as a valid negotiating partner.
    • Yossi, paraphrased: “Are we supposed to treat Hamas as we would a member of the EU?” [14:24]
• Arab World Alignment & Power of Narrative
  • The inclusion (even if by “bullying authority”) of a broad Arab coalition is seen as vital: “You need a narrative if you want to defeat terror.” [11:02]
  • Narrative and moral clarity are as important as force in shaping outcomes and legitimacy.

3. Cautious Optimism and Israeli Skepticism

• Emotional Impasse & Trauma
  • Donniel: “As a result of October 7th, the only language that we knew was the language of complete victory… This plan is giving us a day after.” [24:48–25:44]
  • Israelis appear collectively unable to trust in positive outcomes, expecting the plan to fail or be sabotaged.
  • Yossi: “October 7th restored a deep pessimism to the Israeli psyche.” [23:25]
  • The discourse is stuck in trauma, unable to dream of horizons beyond survival—settling for “diminishing options.” [26:44]
• Desire for Hope
  • Donniel: “Could you hope again?... Maybe it's not broken. Maybe in a period of three weeks, is there a possibility to hope for something else?” [21:36]
  • Education and leadership are seen as critical to break this impasse and open Israelis’ imaginations to new realities: “Our responsibility now is to teach Israeli society… this is a different vision about who we are and who we want to be.” [35:34]

4. If the Plan Fails: Moral and Practical Dilemmas

• Legitimacy vs. Effectiveness of Renewed Military Action
  • If Hamas refuses the plan, is Israel now morally—or even practically—justified in returning to war?
  • Yossi: “For me, we now have not just the moral legitimacy to resume the war, but the imperative, because now military pressure has a moral political goal.” [29:29]
  • Donniel: “Military operations just aren't going to be successful. So, okay, I now have the moral right, but I'm going to go back… It's better to hope and be disappointed than never to hope at all.” [32:54]
  • The plan may allow for incremental progress even if Hamas doesn’t agree universally, e.g., through handover of cleared areas to Arab/international administration.

5. Long-Term Horizons & Spiritual Challenge

• Revival of the two-state solution and regional normalization (e.g., Saudi Arabia in the Abraham Accords) are viewed as possible yet uncertain long-term gains.
• Both hosts emphasize a spiritual dimension:
  • Donniel: “If Yom Kippur means anything, it is the belief… that people aren’t stuck in who they were. The past doesn’t determine us… we have a moment.” [34:23]
  • Yossi: “You know, you've won me over to some extent. I really am feeling going into the New Year a real boost… bringing Israel and the Arab world on the same page.” [32:59]
• The “moment of hope” must be seized by educators—and society—so that the opportunity isn’t lost in cynicism or trauma.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Yossi Klein Halevi [04:01]:
  "Trump has forced Netanyahu to commit to a credible, a morally credible vision of the morning after the war. First time."
• Donniel Hartman [07:44]:
  "This plan puts the focus again on Hamas's evil and on the necessity to remove their ability to determine the future of Gaza."
• Donniel Hartman [24:48]:
  "Netanyahu shifted from being the prime minister of economic stability and strength to be the perfect prime minister for our nightmares..."
• Yossi Klein Halevi [23:25]:
  "October 7th restored a deep pessimism to the Israeli psyche. We were a very optimistic people… and October 7th brought back … not just vulnerability, because we've always lived with vulnerability. It gave us a glimpse of… into the end."
• Donniel Hartman [34:23]:
  “If Yom Kippur means anything, it is the belief of our tradition that people aren’t determined and aren’t stuck in who they were. The past doesn’t determine us. And right now, that’s perfect. We have a moment.”
• Yossi Klein Halevi [32:59]:
  “Going into the New Year a real boost… There are so many wins here. It’s bringing Israel and the Arab world on the same page… gratitude for America, gratitude for Israeli fortitude, gratitude to the political system in this country, which has put aside partisan politics for this moment.”

Key Timestamps

• [04:01] – On the moral shift enforced by Trump’s plan.
• [07:44] – The plan’s focus: Making Hamas’s removal paramount.
• [10:17] – Political strategy as a prerequisite for moral legitimacy.
• [13:31] – Liberal criticism: Is the plan an "ultimatum" rather than negotiation?
• [23:25-24:48] – Israeli psyche post-October 7th and leadership response.
• [32:59–34:23] – Expressions of hope, spiritual renewal, and the role of Yom Kippur.

Tone & Language

• The dialogue is intimate, reflective, occasionally humorous, and openly emotional.
• Professorial and rabbinic warmth, balancing skepticism, realism, and a sense of urgent responsibility as Jewish leaders and educators.
• Genuine gratitude (even for Trump, in this context), tempered by familiar Israeli cynicism.

Conclusion

The episode frames a rare moment of possibility for Israel—moral, political, and even spiritual—brought by the unexpected configuration of American-led diplomacy and regional alignment. Both hosts urge their audience to dare to hope, even in the shadow of trauma, and to recognize the responsibilities that accompany such moments: to teach, to dream, and to shape what comes “the day after.”