← Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
Australia's Royal Commission on Antisemitism - with Alon Cassuto & Lisa Mittelman
00:40:56
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- [00:01]
Dan Senor
Before we continue, I want to take a moment to talk about daily life in Israel right now. One day can seem relatively calm, the next, sirens, rockets, everything changes. So the question isn't just what's happening at this moment, it's whether Israel is ready for what comes next. Hadassah hospitals in Jerusalem have built that readiness into the foundation of their work and their facilities. When a crisis hits it, entire departments move underground in minutes into fortified maternity wards, ICUs and cancer units. Doctors and nurses continue treating patients in real time, even under fire. But here's the reality, it's not enough. More advanced underground operating rooms are urgently needed so that even in the most extreme conditions, Hadassah's life changing care continues. Hadassah is working right now to expand these emergency zones because in Israel, preparedness isn't theoretical, it's essential. If you want to help, make sure Israel is ready. Go to hadassah.org and support this important work. That's H A-A S S A H.org because you never know what tomorrow will bring.
- [01:16]
Lisa Mittleman
You are listening to an art media podcast.
- [01:21]
Alon Kasuto
I was lying in bed sort of putting my 10 year old daughter to bed at the time and she says
- [01:25]
Jeremy Liebler
to me, she goes, dad, if Israel's not safe and we're not safe in
- [01:30]
Alon Kasuto
Australia, like where are we going to go?
- [01:32]
Jeremy Liebler
And I didn't have an answer.
- [01:34]
Alon Kasuto
I don't have an answer. One of our friends that was there, a non Jewish friend, he said, dean,
- [01:40]
Dan Senor
I need you to know that if
- [01:41]
Alon Kasuto
it comes down to that, we've got a farm and we'll take you and we'll hide you. We need to stop and think about that. That's how happening in Australia in 2025.
- [02:04]
Dan Senor
It's 8am on Sunday, May 10 here in New York City. It's 3pm on Sunday, May 10 in Israel and it's 10pm on Sunday, May 10 in Sydney. As Australian Jews closely follow testimonies like the one you heard in the cold open for from Australia's Royal Commission on Antisemitism. Five months ago, terrorists opened fire on a Hanukkah celebration at Bondi beach, killing 15 Australian Jews. The attack shocked a country that had spent two years telling itself it was different, that the anti Semitism was loud but not lethal, political but not a physical threat. In the weeks that followed the Bondi attack, the Australian government resisted calls for a Royal Commission, the highest form of public inquiry in the country. Then, under enormous, enormous public pressure, it reversed course. On January 9th of this year, the Royal Commission on Anti Semitism was formally established and began summoning witnesses, students, teachers, executives. And the picture emerging from those hearings is, by most accounts worse than anyone had expected. Nearly 5,000 written submissions, testimonies about neo Nazi language directed at children at sports matches. Jewish teachers were told to use, quote, less obviously Jewish names. Australia's Jewish community is experiencing a dissonance these days. On the one hand, they finally feel heard, but on the other, more than 80% of the community surveyed says they do not believe any of it will produce systemic change. A short housekeeping note if you haven't already, please make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can find that link in this episode's description below, or you can just go to arcmedia.com where you can find all our links and also subscribe to our newsletter. Today I'm joined by two people at the center of the dramatic week that unfolded in Australia. Alon Kasuto is the CEO of the Zionist Federation of Australia, who helped lead the campaign to establish the commission. And Lisa Mittleman, who is the Director of Public affairs at the Zionist Federation of Australia. They joined me both from Australia alone. Lisa, thank you for being here.
- [04:17]
Lisa Mittleman
Thanks for having us, Dan.
- [04:18]
Alon Kasuto
Thanks for having us.
- [04:19]
Dan Senor
Lisa, I'll start with you. The Royal Commission was established because the Jewish community knew anti Semitism had escalated dramatically since October 7, 2023. But knowledge of a problem and hearing testimony under oath are obviously different things. What have the testimonies revealed that you didn't already know?
- [04:38]
Lisa Mittleman
I think that's exactly right, Dan. There's been an explosion of antisemitism in this country since October 7th, and every Jew has felt that implicit. But I think there's a difference between knowing that sort of intellectually and then seeing witness after witness testimony in deeply painful and personal ways. For me, I think what's been most harrowing is to really understand the extent and prevalence of antisemitism in the country. And it hasn't necessarily been the big incidents that have been most moving, but the stories of personal impact. You know, a student who's too scared to go to school, or an employee who was asked to change her name to make it less Jewish. But I was also struck by the threads that we saw coming through people's testimonies. Many witnesses spoke of coming to this country in search of a safer and better life, falling in love with the country, and then having to grieve the country that they felt they'd lost after October 7th. And a lot of witnesses spoke of experiencing antisemitism as hostility towards Israel. But that targeted them as Jews in Australia. And whether they were progressive or conservative, religious or secular, whether they supported the government in Israel or opposed it, they all spoke of the importance of their connection to Israel. So those were the things that struck me most.
- [06:00]
Dan Senor
And the whole notion of a commission, a government mandated commission, which I think in U.S. terms, there's, I would say, like an uneven appreciation for the significance of it because there's all sorts of commissions that are in the US and some are important, some aren't. Some are at the state level, some are at the federal level, some are congressionally mandated. It's hard, I think, for Americans to understand how, whether or not commissions can actually carry weight. Like, oh, sure, another commission. So tell me why this one is different.
- [06:26]
Lisa Mittleman
This is the highest form of independent judicial inquiry in Australia. It's being headed by a former justice of our highest court. And it has extensive powers to compel witnesses and to explore all the drivers that have led to escalating anti Semitism in the country. And historically, royal commissions in Australia have led to meaningful legislative and policy changes.
- [06:50]
Dan Senor
So you say it's a big deal and the country pays attention when there's a commission of this nature. So who's in charge of the investigation? Who's the person who's leading this commission?
- [06:59]
Lisa Mittleman
So the commissioner is Virginia Bell. She was a former justice of the High Court of Australia. She is completely independent and can choose the direction of inquiry that she wants to follow.
- [07:09]
Dan Senor
And she's not Jewish.
- [07:10]
Lisa Mittleman
She's not Jewish. And ultimately she's been asked to make recommendations on how to address antisemitism by the anniversary of Bondi. So the 14th of December this year.
- [07:20]
Dan Senor
Okay, we heard a clip at the beginning in the cold open, as I mentioned, we'll be playing a few more of these clips. I want to play one clip from Natalie Levy, who is the mother of a young Jewish girl. So let's play that.
- [07:32]
Lisa Mittleman
She sees swastikas etched all around the school. Children saying Heil Hitler and putting up their arm in a salute. She's one of two Jewish children at that school. She's a very proud Jewish young lady, but she's scared.
- [07:50]
Dan Senor
There was also a school principal who reported on more than 50 incidents. Nazi salutes, Heil Hitler shouts, swastika graffiti on desks, lockers, bathroom walls, gun gestures, students being spat on alone. The testimonies have shown anti Semitism from both ends of the political spectrum. Neo Nazi language on one side, progressive spaces expelling Jewish members on the other. Before the hearings, from which end was this most dominant and what has the evidence since revealed?
- [08:23]
Alon Kasuto
So, Dan, the school principal you mentioned, Jeremy Stowe Lindena, who's the principal of the ALEC College, is a dear friend of ours and listening to his testimony and what that school has had to go through, what those school children have had to go through, is heartbreaking. And before the 7th of October, it wasn't like we didn't have any antisemitism in Australia. It did exist. We had neo Nazis. We've had our fair share of Islamists, extremists who were known to authorities, but these were always seen as being on the fringe. They weren't socially acceptable. And most Australians instinctively understood that these were radicals. And I think what's changed since October 7 isn't just the volume of anti Semitism which has exploded, but it's also where it sits culturally, because the average Australian knows that when they see a neo Nazi shouting he. These groups are abhorrent and they've emerged from the shadows. We've seen them protesting in the streets and even on the steps of Parliament. And in fact, even in the last two days in Melbourne, there's been some really disgraceful demonstrations of neo Nazis. But what I think is disturbing Jews a lot more is some of the antisemitism that has emerged masquerading as morality or progressivism or human rights. Because what we're seeing here is really a different, a much more opaque version of antisemitism, which is clear to many Jews, but not as clear to the average Australian. So the average Australian doesn't instinctively see a progressive doctor or lawyer or academic or teacher as potentially being anti Semitic. It's just a foreign concept. And so for a lot of the Jews, this lived effect is actually quite similar. Whether it's a neo Nazi or it's an extremist. Progressive Jews are getting excluded from places where we're seeing this kind of pressure to censor ourselves and to really distance our ourselves from core parts of who we are, our Jewish identity, our Zionist identity. And one of the things that really struck me listening to so many of the testimonies that have come out, but also the conversations that have emerged off the back of a lot of these testimonies with people in our community, is the number of deeply progressive Australian Jews who suddenly feel homeless. They feel like they've lost these lifelong friendships and professional relationships. And it's kind of this rupture that after very and successful and established careers, overnight after October 7th just got completely severed. And these are people who gave a lot. They gave a lot to Australia. They gave a lot in various human rights spaces and social justice spaces, and it wasn't supposed to happen here. Like, Australia was always known as the lucky country where Jews of all persuasions could thrive. And it's been really destabilizing for me personally. Before October 7th, I had a long career in professional services, both as a lawyer and as a management consultant. And I never thought twice about speaking about my Jewish identity or connection to Israel. I was regularly talking about the fact that I grew up in Israel, that my father lives there, that I just came back from Israel, and now, notwithstanding that I'm the CEO of a Zionist Federation, I find myself subconsciously thinking twice before talking about it openly. And it would be significantly harder for a lot of the people I know who are in those progressive spaces. And so I think for most Australians, that there's this kind of impossible ask where. On the one hand, we're being told, well, you can be here, but we're being asked to, in a sense, amputate that Zionist part of our identity. And that's an impossible ask for a community like ours that is deeply Zionist, that's made up of Holocaust survivors and their descendants, where Zionism is just part of who we are and who we have been for generations. And the idea that Jews should have to choose whether to be openly themselves or fit into Australian society and leave part of who they are behind is quite sad, really. And it's a relatively new reality.
- [12:33]
Dan Senor
Lisa, the government resisted this commission for weeks, and obviously it couldn't have happened without their ultimately supporting it or approving it. What actually moved them, what flipped them? Do you think it was a genuine shock to their conscience? Or was there a political calculation here? Or maybe both.
- [12:52]
Lisa Mittleman
Unfortunately, as Jews, we know all too well that hate left unchecked inevitably leads to violence. And so the Jewish community saw the warning signs early. So even though I would say that Bondi was the realisation of our worst nightmares, it wasn't entirely surprising to us. But that was definitely not the case for the broader Australian community. Gun violence in Australia is extremely rare, let alone a mass casualty event like this that took place at one of Australia's most iconic locations, at Bondi Beach. So I genuinely believe that the Government initially struggled to process what had happened and the immediate response missed the bar. They focused on things like gun law reform or, you know, security arrangements, but they weren't willing to talk about the root causes, the rise of Islamic radicalisation and antisemitism in the country. So ultimately, what moved them, you know, to create The Royal Commission was the unified and coherent calls, not only from the Jewish community, but from the broader Australian community. There were loud calls and petitions from current and former politicians, from business leaders, from sporting personalities. And I just think the pressure became too large for the government to ignore. And people recognised after Bondi that inaction on antisemitism was no longer morally or socially or politically feasible. And also I think one reason why the government delayed the decision a bit is, you know, you'll recall that Bondi occurred on the 14th of December. I think they thought the mounting pressure on government would subside over the Christmas New Year's holiday, which traditionally in Australia, you know, everyone's on holidays and there's no news. But the pressure really didn't go away. And so the Royal Commission was announced on the 9th of January, really in the middle of that holiday period.
- [14:42]
Dan Senor
Okay, Alon. The Commission had adopted the IHRA definition of antisemitism. That's the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. But the Commissioner, from what I understand, is still wrestling with where anti Israel rhetoric crosses the line, where anti Israel rhetoric becomes anti Semitism. How is that playing out with Commissioner Bell in the context of this whole Commission?
- [15:05]
Alon Kasuto
To the Commissioner's credit, she's been making a genuine effort to really understand how the Jewish community experiences the antisemitism, anti Semitism. And she asked our President, Jeremy Liebler, explicitly, where is the line to be drawn and is it a difficult line to draw? And what Jeremy Liebler responded is that it isn't a difficult distinction, but there are people with an agenda to try and make it seem difficult. And in simple terms, the Australian government adopted the AIRA definition of anti Semitism way back in 2021, so long before October 7th and long before the Royal Commission. And it's excellent definition that actually explicitly says what is antisemitism and what is not, and distinguishes between legitimate criticism of Israel and antisemitism. And it says that criticizing the Israeli government or its conduct of any particular conflict is completely legitimate. And in fact, as we all know, Israelis themselves do this more vigorously than anyone. So what crosses the line into antisemitism is when this becomes this obsessive delegitimization that we've been seeing and this demonization and really this double standard that isn't applied to any other country on earth. And for me, that shift in Australia was very personal and very tangible. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, before October 7th, I was openly speaking about Israel. And now you find yourself thinking twice before mentioning Israel. And, you know, one testimony in Particular that really stuck with me was the daughter of a very close friend of mine. Her name's Mia Klein. She's an incredibly courageous young Jewish university student who got up onto the witness stand and she was describing her very really heartbreaking experience to the commissioner where she was essentially pushed out of her share house at university because her housemates couldn't accept her as a Zionist and they couldn't come to terms with her Jewish identity. They said that it didn't align with their values. Now that's not a debate about Israeli policy. She happens to be someone who's very nuanced, comes from progressive circles and backgrounds. That's plain moral exclusion and anti Semitism and that kind of really simplistic binary view of you are a Zionist and therefore we cannot live with you anymore, we cannot associate with you. That's anti Semitism. And it was not supposed to happen here in Australia. You know, we have this incredible multicultural society here where Australians of all types have had these deep ties to their countries of origin. You know, we've got got Chinese Australians, Greek Australians, Lebanese Australians, and none of them in any way, shape or form expected to disown the countries they've come from. Now the issue is not whether Jews agree or disagree with Israel. I mean, we all know Jews disagree with Israel all the time, but the fact that Jews become socially unacceptable or suspicious because they have a connection to Israel. When others get to define what Zionism is in a way that is completely detached from our own lived experience of what Zionism is, the way we've expressed it and experienced it our whole lives, I mean, there's no other word for that other than anti Semitism and this, you know, the last two and a half years in Australia where there's been this aggressive campaign to delegitimize not only Israel, but every Jew that sees themselves as connected to Israel and dehumanize Zionists as if we are some form of modern day fascist Nazis, whatever you want to call it. And I don't think this is unique to the Australian experience, but it is, is deeply shocking that it's happened here in a country we really thought we were quite protected from that.
- [18:57]
Dan Senor
Well, I think anyone listening to this podcast alone in any diaspora community anywhere in the world on that particular point that will resonate. That is something that is going on everywhere where you have, particularly in pluralistic communities which are very diverse, with people who have some origin or connection to another place on the planet. This is certainly the case in America. And they feel deep ties and connections and have Family and friends and other parts of the world, somehow they're not discriminated against based on those very understandable and very natural connections. And yet that is the quintessence of the Jews being held to a double standard, to a different standard wherever they are. Okay, I want to play a clip from Jeremy Liebler, who's the president of your organization, who was on Call Me Back following the Bandai attack. Here's one of his clips.
- [19:44]
Jeremy Liebler
What has changed is not that there was no anti Semitism and suddenly that there is, but for my 13 year old son to have now normalised this situation, that Jewish schools, Jewish children need high fences and guards and security and to be protected but other children don't and other schools don't. And that is normal. That isn't something he learned from me. It's not how I grew up. It's painful not just as a father, it's painful as the an Australian because this impacts the very nature of this country. It's not how I grew up. That's not how I want anyone's children to grow up. Jewish or not Jewish.
- [20:28]
Dan Senor
So Lisa, after the Bandai attack we saw a wave of solidarity among non Jews inside Australia. Business leaders, sports professional athletes, former prime ministers, they all joined the campaign for this commission. Have these testimonies been meaningful enough for more and more non Jews within Australia to act or speak up?
- [20:51]
Lisa Mittleman
I know for me personally, Dan, when a non Jew has reached out to me to show support or stood unequivocally with the Jewish community is deeply moving. I think Jewish people make up less than 0.5% of the Australian population and they're concentrated in Melbourne and Sydney. So most Australians would never have knowingly interacted with a Jewish person before. And I think most have no idea that Jewish students go to school behind high fences and armed guards. That Jewish place of worship and Jewish aged care, you know, have round the clock security. And I think that's one of the most important opportunities of the Royal Commission to give broader Australian society a window into what it's like to be Jewish in Australia over the last two years. And I think for there to be a meaningful shift in the trajectory of antisemitism in this country, we're gonna need more than just the recommendations of the Royal. It's going to require ordinary Australians to take a stand and push antisemitism back to the fringes where it belongs. Yesterday in Sydney at an under 12s girls netball match, there was a Jewish team playing and a parent from the other team yelled some anti Semitic obscenities f the Jews, you know, you should have all been eradicated. And the Jewish people who were there who witnessed it responded immediately. They confronted her. They called the police, they offered their support to the players. But the one thing was that was missing was that the other non Jewish parents who witnessed it didn't stand up and say unequivocally that that behaviour is unacceptable and has no place in Australia. And so as long as people feel emboldened to say those things in public in Australia, we have a really serious problem. Anti Semitism doesn't become normalised because of extremists. It becomes normalised because ordinary people fail to speak up.
- [22:46]
Dan Senor
Hi, it's Dan. Over the past couple of years, Call Me Back has grown into something much bigger than we ever expected. A place for clarity, context and honest conversations at a time when those things can seem hard to find. That's what ARC Media is all about. Building a truly independent voice, which means no one shaping what we say or how we say it. To help support our rapidly expanding operations, we created Inside Call Me Back, our members only fee, where we answer your questions and bring you into the conversations that typically happen after the cameras stop rolling. If Call Me Back has been meaningful to you and you want to be part of what we're building, I hope you'll join us. Right now we're offering an annual subscription for $60. That's just $5 a month. Your contribution goes a long way in helping us show up when it matters most. You can subscribe@arcmedia.org or through the link in the show notes and to our insiders. Thank you. I want to play another clip from Jeremy Alon. Let's play that.
- [23:52]
Jeremy Liebler
We see fellow Australians chanting calls for our demise. Before Israel had responded, before Israel had done anything. The police instructed the Jewish community not to attend the Opera House. It wouldn't be safe. We saw this pattern. We saw it when Jewish students were fearful to attend campus and sit their exams. They were told, it's okay, you can sit your exams at home. When they were intimidating on campuses and Jewish students did not feel safe going to lectures, they were told, it's okay, we'll create a safe room for you. Well intentioned. But the message that was received by those students and by the Jewish community is that we either can't or we are not prepared to take the necessary steps to keep you safe and protect you.
- [24:36]
Dan Senor
So Alon surveys show that many Australian Jews do not believe the Royal Commission will produce meaningful systemic change. On the other hand, for the first time in two and a half years. It seems like Jews in Australia are being heard. Based on your experience. I know it's very anecdotal. How are Jews experiencing this moment?
- [24:55]
Alon Kasuto
Dan, that's an excellent question, a complex question. I think Jews experiencing a number of things simultaneously. On the one hand, there is relief. Relief that finally someone is listening to us. It's quite cathartic. On the other hand, there's a huge amount of exhaustion and there is a healthy dose of skepticism, which I think is very natural when a process like this is underway. And, you know, for two and a half years, many Jews have felt like they're being gaslit. Their experiences have been minimized, they've been explained away. So there's something quite powerful about ordinary people, mothers, children, school teachers, everyday Australian Jews, and also non Jews, importantly, who have had a connection to the antisemitism that has exploded standing up and sharing their stories and saying, this is what happened to me. This is how our lives have changed. But there's also something exhausting about it. I mean, it's been emotionally draining listening to these stories day after day. The hearing has really been played by a lot of Jews, and they're kind of following it very closely. And you hear stories about schools, about hospitals, universities, workplaces, sporting organizations. Yeah. You have to wonder, when you zoom out, what is all of this repeated exposure to so much collective darkness and trauma? What does this do psychologically to our community? At what point does vigilance become anxiety in an unhealthy way? At what point do we start to clash with this deep resolve that we've had as a community to not lean into this victimhood, but rather to push back on it? You know, one witness used the phrase which really stuck with me, which is around open hiding, kind of described.
- [26:45]
Dan Senor
That's a powerful image.
- [26:46]
Alon Kasuto
As a Jewish community, we don't want to retreat. We don't want to live in hiding. We don't want our Jewish identity to become defined by threat or anti Semitism. And so, you know, in this respect, I think we've got a job to do as a community. I agree with Brett Stevens, who's been on the podcast many times, who said that we cannot define ourselves or have our organizing principle of Jewish life focused on combating anti Semitism. We have to help young Jews feel proud and confident to express their Judaism. And in fact, just earlier tonight, I came from an event that filled my bucket and inspired me. We were promoting gap years in Israel that we run through the Zionist Federation, and we held it At a local synagogue. There were over 300 people there, standing room only, hundreds of young people and their parents who are thinking about spending a year in Israel. And the energy, there was a buzz there. The energy was excited. And. And for me, that's where our community needs to invest in getting every one of those young people to confidently build their Jewish identity. And that should be what we obsess over. Not combating anti Semitism, but building a proud next generation of Jews. And I think that security matters. It has to matter. I mean, we saw that in Bandai. We saw that with the Adas synagogue that's just down the road from where I am now in my home that was burnt to the ground in Melbourne. Security has to matter. But we cannot not possibly have a healthy community or healthy children when our young Jewish children, as Jeremy spoke about with his 13 year olds, internalize the idea that it's normal, that we have fences and guards and fear. Being Jewish has to be so much more than that. It has to be about joy and purpose and pride alone.
- [28:31]
Dan Senor
That point about focusing on Jewish flourishing and not just responding to anti Semitism. Well, you're speaking my Torah. I'm totally with you and I'm thrilled that just that example you cited that there was this event you were at tonight, Australia time to support gap years. And I just want to say to the Australian community, I strongly endorse gap years. The three areas that I have been emphasizing the most for Jewish continuity are Jewish day schools, Jewish summer camps and Jewish gap years. My own son is going on a gap year program beginning this September. So I strongly encourage it. And I really, it's so important that in the midst of all this darkness to keep. I'm so glad you put a spotlight on where people are investing and growing in Jewish life and not just kind of responding to the hate.
- [29:12]
Alon Kasuto
Dan, I think you just doubled the number of young Australian Jews going on gap years. And we're going to clip that and we're going to use it on repeat to make sure that our gap year programs are filled to the brink.
- [29:22]
Dan Senor
I'm telling you, few things bring me more joy. But since this episode is largely about the darkness, I don't, I don't want to deviate too much from the commission as much as I could do an entire episode talking about the gap year projects. First, I want to ask about the critics of the Royal Commission. Who are the. Before we get into how they've responded so far, who are there critics of this? Like, is there anyone who said this is a really Bad idea. This shouldn't happen.
- [29:47]
Lisa Mittleman
Yes, there has been detractors for the Royal Commission from the very beginning and they range, you know, they come from the pro Palestinian side, they come from the free speech side who are worried that new hate lawyers might encroach on their rights to speech and freedom of protest. And just the first day of the Commission or the second day of the Commission, there was a man arrested for wearing a T shirt with a swastika and proudly proclaiming that he's a anti Semite. The Commission has always had its detractors and we know that there's a coordinated and well funded campaign to try and minimise and universalise antisemitism. They're attempting to argue that anti Zionism has nothing to do with antisemitism or that antisemitism only exists because of Israel's conduct in Gaza. The Commission has already made clear that she's not here to litigate the conflict in the Middle east, that she's here to examine the prevalence of antisemitism in Australia. But I think what the Commission does need to appreciate is that modern antisemitism often uses Israel as a pretense for hostility towards Jews. For centuries, antisemitism has projected whatever the evil of the day is onto the Jewish people and today we see them project that in language of humanitarianism and human rights rights. And Israel is the colonizer, it's an apartheid, it's committing genocide and, you know, that's used in ways to implicate and vilify Jewish people more broadly. So I think the Royal Commission fails to grapple with anti Zionism as a contemporary manifestation of antisemitism. It's gonna struggle to move the dial and have any meaningful impact on the nature, the prevalence of anti Semitism here in Australia. And I think, you know, that's why the testimony this week's been so important, because it's given Jewish Australians the opportunity to describe their lived experience in their own words. And that is our story to tell. Every other minority is afforded the opportunity to describe how hatred impacts them. And Jewish Australians deserve the ability to describe and define the hatred that they are experiencing and not be told by other people whether or whether it's not antisemitism.
- [32:00]
Dan Senor
One last clip I want to play. This one is from Vic Aladesh.
- [32:05]
Alon Kasuto
We live in fear that God there
- [32:07]
Lisa Mittleman
would be another Bandai.
- [32:09]
Alon Kasuto
And that is our truth, that is our normal, that is our new reality. We ask, are our children safe?
- [32:16]
Lisa Mittleman
Do we have a long term future in this country?
- [32:18]
Alon Kasuto
Should we be Packing our bags and looking elsewhere.
- [32:22]
Dan Senor
Okay, coming off of that clip, a question for you both. The commission is due to report before the end of this year. As we discussed earlier, there are many in the Australian Jewish community who are skeptical of the Royal Commission and whether or not it'll actually have any real impact, whether or not anyone's really paying attention. Suppose, let's just assume for a moment that they are right, their skepticism is well grounded and no meaningful change takes place. Going back to that clip from the Cold open about the non Jewish friend offering to hide Jews in their barn, what do you actually say to a 22 year old Australian Jew who asks you, should I stay? You know, I'm a young adult. I'm making decisions about where to build a life as a young Australian Jew. Is this where I should build my life? Lisa, I'll start with you.
- [33:09]
Lisa Mittleman
So, Dan, Australia is home to the biggest Holocaust survivor community outside of Israel. And many of us, myself included, are only here because our families saw the warning signs early and made the painful decision to leave. So what you're talking about, these are very real discussions happening around tables, Jewish tables all over Australia, and people are wondering where their red line is. I've spent a lot of time the last couple of weeks speaking to Jewish Australians about their experience of antisemitism and encouraging them to make submissions to the Royal Commission. And one thing that's crystal clear to me is that the community is invested in this process. They see it as the best and maybe the only tool at our disposal to try and arrest the trajectory of antisemitism in this country, to ensure that, you know, Australia is once again a safe place for Jews as well as for all Australians. So what I would tell the 22 year old is that I still believe in this country. I believe there's a future for Australian Jews here. I believe the majority of Australians are fundamentally good. And I believe we have to do everything in our power to fight for the Australia that our grandparents and parents valued so much and to fight to make sure that those same opportunities, that same belonging, is available to our children and grandchildren. Dan, I know you like to finish on a bit more of a positive note. I was at a bar mitzvah earlier this evening and there was amazing ruach and energy on the dance floor. And it struck me, you know, even though it's been a really emotionally draining week off the back of a very difficult two and a half years, this community still proudly celebrates its Jewish and Zionist identity. And I think that's the best antidote to antisemitism and those who seek to intimidate us and push us out of this country.
- [35:06]
Dan Senor
Beautiful. Alon, your reaction?
- [35:09]
Alon Kasuto
The question of what would I say to young Jews? It actually breaks my heart a little bit because I never imagined that young Australian Jews would actually be asking this question. But as Lisa said, it is the conversation that is happening in Shabbat dinner tables. It is the conversation that's happening behind closed doors, and it's heartbreaking. And the Jews being hidden in the barn, I mean, that was the story that my grandfather told me about, about him and his siblings escaping in Italy from SS officers who were rounding up Jews and sending them to concentration camps and they hid in a barn from the Nazis. So to me, I mean, when I hear of that language, that is my one grandfather on my Italian side and my other grandfather in Australia around that same time was, or a decade later was a Judge Advocate General of the Royal Australian Navy. He was one of the highest Jewish officers at the time. So I have that contrast. And Australia's been one of the greatest success stories of Jewish diaspora life. I mean, the last two and a half years have been difficult. They've been shocking, they've caught us off guard and by surprise. But I still deeply believe in this country. I still deeply believe that Australia is better than this darkness that we've seen emerge. And we have to put everything we've got into this Royal commission, and we have to back it to do something significant. My answer to young Jews is, is not to leave because Australia is beyond repair. I don't believe it is. My answer is to stay proud as Jews remain connected to who they are, but also to Australian society and to help shape the kind of Australia that we want to live in. Because if Jews retreat and go behind closed doors, and if anti Semites move further into the center, then, yes, this country will become beyond repair. But at the moment, there is a very real and very live fight going on. And I believe that this community and its allies and the majority of Australians want to repair this damage that's been done over the past two and a half years. And on the other hand, if Israel speaks your name and you are a proud Zionist Jew, then answer that call. Because Australian Jews have been making aliyah for generations. My mother was one of them. And that's not because Australia failed those Olim, but it's because Zionism for so many Jews was the highest expression of peoplehood, and aliyah is the most the highest expression of that. And so there are many impressive Israelis today who began their lives as Australian Jews. People like Talbeka, who you have on the podcast regularly, people like Mark Regev, who was, you know, spokesperson for the government brilliantly for so many years. And so I believe that there are Australian Jews who will make a wonderful life for themselves in Australia, and Australian Jews who will make a wonderful life for themselves in Israel. And both of those countries have a deep bond that is working, worth fighting for.
- [38:08]
Dan Senor
Lisa Alon, I want to thank you for doing this. It's an understatement to say it's an incredibly complicated time in Australia. It's a complicated time, I think, in all diaspora communities around the world versions of what we're talking about today. We're hearing from Canada, the uk, France, even parts of the United States. But I think in Australia, because it's so much farther geographically than these other places, I think we actually hear less about it. Oddly, even in this incredible, incredible ease with which information travels, we hear less about what's going on. We at Call Me Back are paying attention and it's understandable that you all just feel farther away. So we obviously care deeply about the Australian Jewish community and we're going to make sure to put an extra spotlight on it. We're going to continue to cover this commission on ARK News Daily. So we encourage our listeners to be subscribing to ARC News Daily because we will be covering what is going on with the commission relentlessly. And to the extent extent that we at the Call Me Back and the Call Me Back community can be helpful to you all in any way, you know how to find us and we'll stay close. So thank you for doing this, Dan.
- [39:13]
Alon Kasuto
I, I want to thank you because it's difficult to overstate the role that you and the Call Me Back team have played in the lifting the morale and connecting the Australian Jewish community to Jews around the world and to Israel. And you are, as you know, played regularly by nearly everyone we know. And the last few years have been extremely difficult. But one of the shining lights has been the emergence of the Call Me Back community. And in Australia that's been deeply, deeply valued. So thank you.
- [39:44]
Dan Senor
It's a real community and we are, it's what keeps us going. In all seriousness, it's why we, a lot of people said to us after October 2025, when the Hamas, the Gaza war ended, you know, people said, oh, is this, what are you guys going to do now? And, you know, there was a set, there would have been these inflection points for Ilan and me along the way. Like, should we wind it down, down? Should we pause? And for the reasons you're saying and others, we're not winding down, we're winding up. So we'll keep doing our part and you keep doing yours.
- [40:13]
Alon Kasuto
Thanks so much.
- [40:14]
Lisa Mittleman
Thanks, Dan.
- [40:15]
Dan Senor
Thank you. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Lon Benatar. Our production manager is Brittany Cone. Our community manager is Ava Wilson Weiner. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Sound and video editing by Liquid Audio. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.