Podcast Summary: "Defining Victory - with Micah Goodman"
Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
Release Date: August 11, 2025
Host/Author: Ark Media
Introduction and Context
In this episode of Call Me Back, host Dan Senor engages in a profound conversation with Micah Goodman, a research fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute and co-host of the Israeli podcast MIF Leget Hamach Shavot. The discussion centers on Israel's ongoing conflict in Gaza and its broader implications for regional geopolitics, particularly in relation to Iran.
Goodman opens the dialogue by highlighting the internal divisions within Israeli politics and the challenges of defining victory in the context of both the Gaza war and the looming threat from Iran. He asserts, “[...] the only way to create a new architecture for the region is to create a new architecture for Israeli politics” ([00:44]).
Netanyahu's Strategy and Israeli Political Landscape
The episode delves into recent developments, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's press conferences where he outlined Israel's five principles for concluding the Gaza war:
- Disarm Hamas
- Release all hostages
- Demilitarize Gaza
- Establish overriding security control of the Gaza Strip
- Govern Gaza with a non-Israeli peaceful administration
Goodman explains Netanyahu's stance that the IDF's takeover of Gaza City is a tactical move aimed at ending the war swiftly, countering international accusations by placing responsibility on Hamas for Gaza's humanitarian situation.
Impact on Israeli Society and the Military
Protests erupted across Israel advocating for a hostage deal and a ceasefire, reflecting a significant shift in public opinion. Goodman notes, “[...] the army is very, very tired,” ([28:38]) underscoring concerns about the strain on IDF reservists who have been engaged intermittently for nearly two years.
Defining Victory: Gaza vs. Regional Stability
A central theme of the conversation is whether Israel can modify its definition of victory in Gaza to achieve broader regional stability. Goodman emphasizes that the conflict with Iran remains unresolved, stating, “[...] we're in the middle of something very big in Iran” ([06:07]). He posits that while Israel has weakened Iran's capabilities, Iran's determination to harm Israel has only intensified.
Goodman introduces a dichotomy in Israeli reputations: deterring threats in the Middle East through fear while seeking love and legitimacy in the West. He explains, “There is a zero sum game between fear and love” ([07:19]). This duality has led to a fragile moment where Israel's actions in Gaza have damaged its standing in Western countries even as it maintains strength in deterring Middle Eastern adversaries.
American-Israeli Political Dynamics
The discussion shifts to the relationship between Israeli and American politics, particularly within the American right. Dan Senor challenges Goodman's initial assertion about a divide within the American right regarding support for military action against Iran. Senor argues that the mainstream American Republican stance is overwhelmingly supportive, countering voices like Tucker Carlson and Steve Bannon as merely "noise" ([10:41]).
Goodman responds by explaining that any potential normalization with Saudi Arabia would not only affect international relations but also cause internal political realignments within Israel. He suggests that Netanyahu's leadership is pivotal in navigating these complex dynamics, stating, “[...] only Bibi could lead to normalization because only he could split the right and reorganize Israeli architecture” ([22:59]).
Normalization and Its Political Ramifications
Normalization with Arab states, especially Saudi Arabia, is portrayed as a strategic victory that could reshape Middle Eastern geopolitics by isolating Iran. Goodman argues, “Normalization is the return of legitimacy” ([24:47]). However, he warns that this process could divide the Israeli right into pragmatic and ideological factions, potentially leading to a significant political realignment.
He elaborates on the internal split within the Israeli right: the ideological right focuses on biblical and messianic narratives, opposing any concessions to Palestinians, while the pragmatic right is more open to strategic normalization if it serves broader security interests.
Goodman envisions that Netanyahu’s leadership could potentially bridge these divides by fostering new coalitions that support normalization, thereby creating a unified front necessary for regional stability.
Future Prospects and Strategic Flips
Addressing the future, Goodman outlines a vision where normalization serves as a strategic flip against Iran, mirroring Iran’s original strategy to encircle and weaken Israel. He states, “Normalization will do to Iran what Iran did to us” ([24:47]). This strategic reorientation aims to dismantle the network of proxies surrounding Israel and establish a new geopolitical order favorable to Israeli security.
Challenges and the Path Forward
Goodman acknowledges the immense challenges Israel faces: balancing military objectives with international legitimacy, managing internal political divisions, and addressing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. He underscores the complexity of achieving a “victory” that encompasses both immediate security needs and long-term regional stability.
He concludes with a philosophical reflection inspired by Talmudic thought: “The future defines the past” ([29:08]). Goodman suggests that the true measure of victory will be determined by the outcomes post-conflict, particularly through normalization and the eventual dismantling of Hamas.
Hostile Hostage Situations and Moral Responsibilities
The issue of hostages remains a contentious point. Goodman conveys the moral imperative to recover hostages but recognizes the limited incentives for Hamas to comply fully. He states, “Hamas probably won't give us all the hostages back” ([31:25]), highlighting the precarious balance Israel must maintain in seeking to end the war without appearing to capitulate to Hamas.
Conclusion: Navigating a Tragic Dilemma
In wrapping up, Goodman encapsulates the Israeli predicament as a tragic situation with no good options—only choosing the lesser of two evils. He emphasizes the necessity of integrating short-term losses into a broader narrative of long-term victory over larger threats like Iran, asserting, “We have bad options. But our best way is to locate the loss inside a larger narrative of victory” ([37:05]).
Dan Senor closes the conversation by acknowledging the depth of the issues discussed and the ongoing complexities faced by Israel.
Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps
- Micah Goodman [00:44]: “The only way to create a new architecture for the region is to create a new architecture for Israeli politics.”
- Micah Goodman [07:19]: “There is a zero sum game between fear and love.”
- Dan Senor [10:41]: “It's like separating the signal from the noise.”
- Micah Goodman [22:59]: “Only Bibi could lead to normalization because only he could split the right and reorganize Israeli architecture.”
- Micah Goodman [24:47]: “Normalization is the return of legitimacy.”
- Micah Goodman [29:08]: “The future defines the past.”
- Micah Goodman [31:25]: “Hamas probably won't give us all the hostages back.”
- Micah Goodman [37:05]: “We have bad options. But our best way is to locate the loss inside a larger narrative of victory.”
Conclusion
This episode of Call Me Back offers a nuanced exploration of Israel's strategic challenges amid ongoing conflicts and the pursuit of regional normalization. Through insightful dialogue, Micah Goodman and Dan Senor dissect the interplay between military objectives, political realignments, and international legitimacy, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the intricate dynamics shaping Israel's present and future.