Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
Episode: Did Israel Fall into Sinwar's Trap? - with Ari Shavit
Release Date: July 31, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Call Me Back, host Dan Senor engages in a profound conversation with renowned Israeli journalist and author, Ari Shavit. The discussion delves into the complex dynamics of the recent conflict involving Israel and Hamas, examining both the immediate and long-term ramifications for Israeli society and its standing on the global stage.

Tragic Loss and Community Resilience

Dan Senor opens the episode with a heartfelt tribute to Wesley Lapatner, an American victim of the recent mass shooting in Midtown Manhattan. Wesley's unwavering support for Israel and her dedication to Jewish causes are highlighted, emphasizing the deep personal losses felt within the community. Senor shares notable memories and quotes, such as:

"Wesley used her voice to champion Jewish causes, advocate for Israel, and show up fully and passionately for her family and friends."
— Caroline Tell, Substack (00:47)

This segment sets a somber tone, underscoring the personal stakes and emotional weight carried by those affected by the conflict.

International Responses and Political Dynamics

The conversation shifts to recent international developments, including the Arab League's condemnation of Hamas and the declarations by Canada, the UK, and France regarding the recognition of a Palestinian state contingent on Israel's actions. Shavit critiques these moves, arguing they inadvertently bolster Hamas's position. He states:

"These countries are making a huge mistake. This is the wrong approach to what's happening in Gaza. This is to play into the hands of Hamas and other extremists."
— Ari Shavit (07:53)

Shavit further explains how Western nations' conditional support for a Palestinian state imposes unrealistic expectations on Israel while offering no corresponding pressure on Hamas, thereby creating "perverse incentives."

Hamas's Strategic Maneuvering

A significant portion of the dialogue focuses on Hamas's strategies under the leadership of Yahya Sinwar. Shavit contends that Hamas never genuinely sought a ceasefire, aiming instead to isolate Israel politically and militarily. He emphasizes:

"Yahya Sinwar wanted not was willing, he wanted to sacrifice the Palestinian civilian population in order to break the spirit of Israeli civilian population and turn Western civilian population against Israel."
— Ari Shavit (08:35)

Shavit warns that Israel has fallen into what he refers to as "Sinwar's trap," leading to increased international isolation and complicating prospects for regional peace.

Impact on Israeli Society and Strategic Missteps

The discussion then delves into the internal state of Israeli society amidst the ongoing conflict. Shavit observes a growing realization among Israelis of their country's precarious position:

"We fulfilled Yikya Sinwar's dream. These are the pictures he wanted. People with strategic understanding should have understood that you don't come close to anything like that."
— Ari Shavit (19:41)

He critiques strategic decisions made by Israeli leadership, particularly the mishandling of food distribution in Gaza, which has exacerbated humanitarian crises and undermined Israel's moral standing.

Moral High Ground and Warfare Ethics

Senor raises concerns about Israel's ability to maintain its moral high ground amid strategic blunders. He discusses soldiers' experiences, highlighting their ethical dilemmas in combat scenarios. Shavit acknowledges the IDF's efforts to minimize unnecessary casualties but criticizes critical strategic errors:

"There was a kind of strategic logic here because Hamas maintained its control by controlling the food. So there was kind of logic in trying to take away the control of distributing food from Hamas, but you don't. If there is a 10% risk that your alternative solution will create, indirectly, unintentionally, hunger, you don't do it."
— Ari Shavit (24:42)

Shavit emphasizes the importance of balancing military action with humanitarian considerations to preserve Israel's democratic values and international legitimacy.

Historical Context and Identity

Shavit reflects on Israel's historical resilience and commitment to maintaining its identity as a moral and democratic state. He draws parallels between past Zionist successes and current challenges, asserting:

"We did not want to destroy Germany and the Germans, and we did not want to murder Arabs. We built the Weizmann Institute and the best health service you can think of."
— Ari Shavit (35:02)

This perspective highlights the tension between Israel's enduring commitment to democratic principles and the strategic necessities imposed by ongoing conflicts.

Paths Forward and Recommendations

In concluding the discussion, Shavit offers a two-pronged approach to address the current crisis:

1. Empathy and Responsibility: He urges Israeli leadership, particularly Prime Minister Netanyahu, to deliver an empathy-driven speech acknowledging strategic mistakes and committing to rectifying them.

2. Humanitarian Ceasefire: Shavit advocates for a unilateral humanitarian ceasefire to alleviate the suffering in Gaza, enabling the distribution of essential aid without empowering Hamas.

He warns against simplistic military solutions and emphasizes the need for a multifaceted strategy that includes political and humanitarian efforts to avoid further entrenching Hamas's influence.

"What you described now was exactly the argument three, four months ago, it didn't release one hostage. It weakened Israel, it played into the hands of Hamas. It's time to think in a multidimensional way."
— Dan Senor (42:27)
"We should kill them. We should haunt them, we should destroy them. Hamas, not the Palestinian people. And not hungry Palestinian children."
— Ari Shavit (43:56)

Conclusion

The episode encapsulates a critical analysis of Israel's current predicament, juxtaposing strategic missteps with ethical imperatives. Ari Shavit's insights provide a nuanced understanding of the interplay between military actions, international diplomacy, and societal resilience. The conversation underscores the urgent need for strategic recalibration to navigate the intricate landscape of Middle Eastern geopolitics while upholding Israel's democratic and moral foundations.

Notable Highlights:

• Ari Shavit on Hamas's Strategy:
  "Yahya Sinwar wanted not was willing, he wanted to sacrifice the Palestinian civilian population in order to break the spirit of Israeli civilian population and turn Western civilian population against Israel."
  (00:08)

• On Israel's Strategic Mistakes:
  "We walked into Sinwar's trap and now we're faced with the consequences."
  (00:47)

• Shavit on Maintaining Moral High Ground:
  "We cannot close our eyes to human catastrophe when human catastrophe happens."
  (25:45)

• Vision for Moving Forward:
  "We should have had a very clear horizon, that while we do cruel things, it leads to peace and that we are absolutely determined to destroy Hamas."
  (29:29)

This episode serves as a profound exploration of the challenges facing Israel, offering listeners a deep dive into the strategic, moral, and societal complexities that define the current conflict landscape.