← Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
EMERGENCY EPISODE: Deadly Attack in Sydney - with Jeremy Leibler, Nomi Kaltmann, and Nadav Eyal
01:01:10
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- [00:04]
Nomi Kaltman
You are listening to an art media podcast.
- [00:09]
Jeremy Liebler
I'm not sure I really believed that anything as bad as this could happen. You know, we have felt under siege like many Jews globally over the last two years. We felt isolated and we felt exposed. And I think this is now the culmination.
- [00:22]
Nadav Eyal
Officials that I've spoken with identified a global effort, meaning more engineered than organic, to intensify hostility and hatred towards Israelis and Zionist Jews. What they're saying is that only a power, and they specifically mention Russia, China, Turkey and Qatar can do that.
- [00:44]
Nomi Kaltman
Most Jews in this country feel this government doesn't have our back. And even if you're not inherently anti Semitic, you are responsible for leading the country and you're failing our community. If the Australian government doesn't wake up and do something drastic now and really put that zero tolerance approach that we are begging for and have been begging for for two full years, there is no future for Jewish people in this country.
- [01:08]
Dan Senor
Before today's conversation, a word from our sponsor. So many great Jewish camp experiences have something in common. Foundation for Jewish Camp foundation for Jewish Camp brings together over 300 Jewish day and overnight camps across all streams of belief, practice, affiliat and size to learn from each other, pilot and scale new initiatives, identify trends and national benchmarks and build a network of support for the field of Jewish Camp. Foundation for Jewish Camp is helping camps innovate, grow and thrive so they can provide exceptional Jewish experiences that become the foundation of a vibrant Jewish life. You can help too. Head to Jewishcamp.org CallMeBack that's Jewishcamp.org CallMeBack to keep this incredible work going. It's 4pm on Sunday, December 14th here in New York City as we approach the first night of Hanukkah. It is 11pm on Sunday, December 14th in Israel and it is 8am on Monday, December 15th in Sydney, Australia where a deadly attack has taken place against the city's Jewish community. On Sunday, over 1,000 Australian Jews gathered at a playground next to the iconic Bandai beach for a Chabad run event celebrating the first night of Hanukkah. At around 6:45pm local time, two gunmen opened fire on the crowd. As of now, there are at least 16 confirmed deaths and close to 40 wounded. The victims range from ages 10 to 87 years old and include a Chabad rabbi. The main organizer of the event, Ellie Schlanger. One of the gunmen has been identified as Navid Akram, a 24 year old Muslim man of Pakistani origin. He was shot and is in critical condition. The other is Believed to be his 50 year old father who was neutralized on scene. This tragedy comes amidst a dramatic rise in antisemitism in Australia, with many fearing anti Jewish violence of the sort we have just witnessed would occur. One community member told the Times of Israel, quote, I'm horrified and devastated that this happened, but not shocked. Close quote. Leaders around the world have joined in condemnation with President Trump calling the event a quote, purely anti Semitic attack. Before we dive into today's conversation, I do want to say a word about the Chabad family, the Chabad community. I'm sure many of our listeners have encountered Chabad rabbis and Rebbetzins in their own communities on their kids college campuses. And when they travel around the world, Chabad emissaries never say no, even when it means bringing Jewish life to the farthest flung place you can imagine. And too often, these Jewish lamplighters who don't hide their identity are the victims of terrorism. In 2008, we saw the senseless murder of Rabbi Gavriel in Rifky Holzberg in Mumbai, India. Just last year we mourned the loss of Rabbi Zvi Kogan, murdered by terrorists in Abu Dhabi. And now we mourn Rabbi Schlanger. My message to our call me back community is simple. First, hug your rabbi and Rebbett Zin this week and thank them for devoting themselves to Jewish flourishing and whenever you can stand with them as they build Jewish pride in the public square. Always, but especially now during the Hanukkah holiday to discuss the horror that unfolded in Sydney, we are joined by two members of the local Jewish community. Jeremy Liebler, president of the Zionist Federation of Australia, and Nomi Kaltman, Australian lawyer and journalist who writes for the Times of Israel Haaretz and is also the Australia correspondent for Tablet magazine. We're also joined by ARC media contributor Nadavael, who joins us from Israel. Jeremy Nomi, welcome to the podcast. For the first time, I am sorry these are the circumstances in which we are talking for the first time. I want to jump right into what we know. So Nomi, I'll start with you just to get a sense of what we know. As of now, can you tell us everything we know about what unfolded?
- [05:41]
Nomi Kaltman
So right now in Australia, it's summertime. Hanukkah actually comes in very late here and last Friday most of the Jewish schools finished up for the year because it's the summer, the long summer holidays. So perfect timing for Hanukkah. It's beautiful weather right now outside and Sunday evening being the first night of Hanukkah meant all across Australia, there were beautiful Hanukkah events. And it's very common to do an event. So in Sydney, almost every year, they run a beautiful public menorah lighting on Bondi beach, one of the most iconic and beautiful tourist locations in Australia. And there was about a thousand people, young people, old people, children, who came together for an event run by the Chabad of Bondi with a public Hanukkah menorah lighting. And at around 6.45pm, it appears that two men came with guns and started shooting and targeting the Jewish people who are at this Hanukkah event. And I want to be really clear. Gun violence of this nature in Australia is unheard of. In 1996, we had one of the worst massacres in Australia in history in Port Arthur in Tasmania. And after that there was bipartisan agreement that Australia should get rid of its guns. So people had to surrender their weapons. A national registry of firearms was set up. So to have gun violence of this nature is deeply shock, shocking to obviously the Jewish community, but to all Australians who have not seen a mass shooting of this nature in more than 30 years. As it stands this morning, there's 16 confirmed dead, including two rabbis from Sydney's Jewish community and a child, a 10 year old girl they're saying has been killed. And at least 29 people with bullet wounds in hospitals, including a brother of someone that I know. And one of the deceased is a friend of mine, her father was killed at this event. So extremely shocking and devastating events for our community in Australia, which are unprecedented not just for the Jewish community, but for the general Australian community as well.
- [07:49]
Dan Senor
And I understand one of the victims was a survivor of the Holocaust.
- [07:53]
Nomi Kaltman
Well, if you understand the migration patterns of how Jews came to this country, it's not entirely surprising that a Holocaust survivor was killed outside of Israel. Melbourne had the highest per capita, highest per capita number of Holocaust survivors who settled here. And in part, Australia was an attractive destination because A, it's very far away from Europe and B, this country has not historically had entrenched antisemitism or a situation which has made it unbearable for Jewish people to live here. So all of these developments and increased antisemitism are unprecedented in the history of Jews living in this country. But also it's very shocking for the Holocaust survivors who Dafka specifically chose this place because it was so far from Europe and they wanted their families not to have to deal with the horrors that they dealt with for millennia living in Europe, where there was entrenched anti Semitism.
- [08:47]
Dan Senor
What do we know about the perpetrators? Beyond what I said in the introduction?
- [08:51]
Nomi Kaltman
We don't actually know that much beyond that. It's a father and son and I'm sure the details will unfold slowly. But if these people are Australian citizens and you would assume that they are Australian citizen, it would be a massive tear to the fabric of our multicultural country, which has been founded on the understanding that people come from many places in many countries and they assimilate into a shared Australian identity. So if these people have come as immigrants or refugees, perhaps, and they have chosen to commit violence against the Jewish community, it will be a terrible rupture, but it will also signify a warring trend and perhaps shift. Shift in the way that Jews perceive their safety in this country. I guess the way that Australian Jews have always related to Australia is that this is an amazing country to be born in, a lucky country, one that has always allowed Jews to flourish and occupy the highest levels of government, business, philanthropy. Being Jewish has never historically been seen as any sort of barrier towards success. But if we're going to see other Australians targeting our communities and our Jewish way of life, I think it's going to cause a lot of Australians to really think twice about the future of our people in this country in a way that no one has really thought of before.
- [10:17]
Dan Senor
Nadav, I want to bring you in. You join us from Tel Aviv where you attracted a lot of attention in recent days, where you reported in your weekly column about an Israeli defense apparatus report that you had access to that laid out the possibility of a coordinated campaign to spike antisemitism globally. And the idea that this campaign was possibly orchestrated, architected by a nation state so that all this rise in anti Semitism that we're seeing around the world, including what we've been seeing in Australia, was not exactly organic. What can you tell us about the report and the likelihood that the Sydney attack may have been a logical case study in what happens when this kind of work suspected by the Israeli defense apparatus is advanced.
- [11:13]
Nadav Eyal
So, Dan, within the Israeli government officials that I've spoken with identified a broad, global and primarily artificial effort, meaning more engineered than organic, to intensify hostility and hatred towards Israelis and Zionist Jews or Jews that identify as Jews. And there is something new there. We know, Dan, since the beginning of the war about the bots in social networks. We know about TikTok. Nothing new there. But you probably noticed, Dan, and you have dealt with it and people of Australia have seen it, that there is a shift since the end of the war. So you would expect that with the end of the war there will be a slowly downgrading of these responses of this kind of extreme utterances of hatred. That's not the case. And there was a change, probably saw the change. They're focusing now on Jews. They're not focusing on what's happening too much in Gaza because there's a ceasefire in Gaza, but they're focusing on Jews. And you see this both in social networks and specifically the sources I've spoken with, officials are talking also about what they labeled employing human assets, which means that they suspect that they don't only mean terrorists, but also opinion shapers that are somehow being used either knowingly or unknowingly. And here's the big deal. What they're saying is that only a power, and they specifically mention Russia, China and Turkey or a nation state specifically mentioned Qatar, can do that. They say about the first states I mentioned that they can do this in house. Dan. They say about Qatar that they could do that through contractors abroad. But what they're saying is that this is an artificial attempt to basically enhance hatred towards Jews, towards Israelis, and specifically towards Jews who identify as Zionists.
- [13:25]
Dan Senor
Wait, Nadav, I just want to ask you, when you say in house, what you mean by in house is meaning some of these countries have the capacity within their own apparatus respectively to not have to outsource it. Is that what you mean?
- [13:37]
Nadav Eyal
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Okay, now I want to hedge a bit about this because they're also saying, look, a lot of what we're seeing around the world is of course organic and natural in the sense that people are seeing images. There are a lot of minority groups that are Muslim. They feel affinity to what's happening in Gaza. They hold the Jewish communities responsible because they see that the Jewish communities are associated with Israel or because they don't care because they are anti Semitic. So for them every Jew is guilty anyway and they're not denying this. So I don't want to go. Everything we're seeing is just a conspiracy in the dark. But what they're saying is if it looks like a state led actor operating and it acts like it, they have come to the conclusion. This is not an assessment. The people I spoke with are not like low grade analysts. And this is a huge issue. It has been brought into diplomatic channels between Israel and other countries. I cannot name these countries at this point. In trying to somehow calm down, Israelis are saying to other countries, we're seeing what's being done. And Israelis are trying to make it stop. That's one element. Another element, I just mention it and let Jeremy Onomi talk about that is of course, in Australia, you don't need to go conspiracy theory. You just need to listen even to this government in Australia that hasn't done enough that actually expelled the Iranian ambassador. And why was he expelled back in August? He was expelled because this Australian government found proof that the Iranians were responsible for trying to burn down a synagogue with people praying in that synagogue. So you don't need to go to an intelligence report. It's the Australian government which hasn't done enough. And I'm sure Jeremy can speak about this with much more detail than I can that is saying that. And they did something really out of the ordinary in international relations of expelling the ambassador.
- [15:42]
Dan Senor
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- [17:11]
Jeremy Liebler
Sure. Well, I think that in order to understand how the community is feeling and this is very fresh still, of course, we need to go back a little while. So NAMI's explained that, you know, we have a, this is a post Holocaust Jewish community. And I think if we go back to the 7th of October, because I think how we are experiencing this attack is intimately connected to what's happened over the last two years. And so I grew up like many in Australia, as a second generation Holocaust survivor. I was surrounded by survivors at The Shabbat table, it was more common than uncommon for any elderly person to have a tattoo on their arm. And I think on the 7th of October, for those 24, 48, 72 hours before the IDF responded, when Israelis in the south were left to experience the barbarity of Hamas for Australian Jews, in addition to watching the horror that was unfolding in Israel, we got a sense as to what the world would be like for Jewish people without a state of Israel and without an idf. And part of that, because of the post Holocaust nature of the community, we are an incredibly Zionist community, fundamentally different to the United States. Polls show, you know, 80, 90% of the community identifies Zionist. Over 90% after the 7th of October said that when Israel was at risk, they felt like their lives were personally at risk. And we observe what's going on in Israel. Two days afterwards, on the 9th of October, we see people burning Israeli flags and chanting, where are the Jews? Or gas the Jews or f the Jews, whatever the words were outside the Sydney Opera House before Israel had even responded. We have had marches. We have had more people marching through the streets of Australia on a weekly basis than there are Jews in Australia. And I think observing this over two years, and in a sense, you know, I was quoted many times in the press over the last two years saying that our real fear is this is going to end in real, real violence. I wondered this last night as events were unfolding. I'm not sure I really believed that anything as bad as this could happen. I really never, ever believed the scenes that were unfolding last night in Bondi. And so I think from the community's perspective, it is, you know, we have felt under siege, like many Jews globally over the last two years. We felt isolated and we felt exposed. And I think this is now the culmination. And this is a. We're at a fork in the road now for Australia, for our government, for our leaders, not just across the government, but all of our institutions. Do we want to preserve the Australia in which we all grew up, or are we going to, you know, fundamentally see Australia change in a way that will not be welcoming to Jewish communities or frankly, other minorities?
- [20:06]
Dan Senor
Before I move to Naomi, actually, can you, Jeremy, respond to what Nadav was talking about, about the government's dealing with the Iranian. The threat of an Iranian conspiracy or Operation Orchestration inside Australia as an early sign to how bad actors from nation states may be trying to make otherwise orchestrated events look organic?
- [20:34]
Jeremy Liebler
Look, there is clear evidence and Azo, our intelligence authority, made it clear that they had hard evidence that Iran was behind these terror attacks, recent terror attacks against the Idas synagogue and some other attacks as well. So that's very clear. But look, I have no doubt in my mind that there is very significant foreign interference in this country within the pro Palestinian protest movement and elsewhere. These rallies that are done on a weekly basis cost a fortune across the whole country. Australia is a very big country. Just the coordination, the sophisticated coordination, the messaging, the bringing in an infiltration of parts, so many parts of civil society, particularly on the progressive side, it is just inconceivable that this has happened organically. Now, I can't prove these things, but there's no question in my mind that there is foreign interference. And is it government or state sponsored? I don't know. But this is not the Australia that I know. And I think it is important to remember that there is absolutely a silent majority, a sensible center here who are outraged and horrified. And the number of messages and calls that I've had from non Jewish colleagues and friends, people I know, people I don't know over the last 12 hours has been unbelievable.
- [21:55]
Dan Senor
Nomi, how are non Jewish Australians experiencing this moment?
- [21:59]
Nomi Kaltman
Well, I think that they're gonna be very shocked that we could have a shooting of this scale in Australia. Like I said, it's been decades since Australia's had a mass gun violence event. So most people are going to be horrified. Some of the early reports that are coming out suggest that one of the shooters at least held a firearm license. So some questions for our authorities about whether he was being monitored or whether he had any sort of red flags that should have stopped that from happening. And I think that based, like Jeremy said, based on the number of non Jewish Australians who have reached out to me from all areas of my life to say, this is not the Australia that we want to live in, this is not what we support and we stand with you and we're so sorry that this happened to your community, I think is an indication of where average Australians are holding in relation to a shooting on the most iconic beach in broad daylight at a Hanukkah party. Like, that's terrible.
- [22:59]
Dan Senor
Nadav, what has been the response in Israel, where you are now? And I guess one question is, what's the response been? And what can Israel do to help communities in the diaspora during a time like this?
- [23:11]
Nadav Eyal
So first of all, this is the major news in Israel. Absolutely. Throughout the day, this is covered all the time. It's opening every news bulletin, and it's been covered with a lot of pain with Speaking with many people in Australia. Israelis have a lot of connections. There is a Jewish Israeli community in Australia. Some of the Chabad people were, of course, Israelis. There were Israelis on the beach that were speaking. And this relates to the second part of your question, Dan. I think that the first thing Israelis should do is ask people like Germany, what do you want us to do? This is very important. And one of the things I wrote in my column tomorrow morning. I spent more than a week in Australia. Just three months ago, I came on the invitation of the JNF to interview Ali Sharabi. And what I discovered is such a warm, Zionist, encouraging, tightly knit community. It's very hard to explain to people that weren't in Australia. And it was my first time. It's a very different Jewish community than anywhere else that I've met. It has this Anglo Saxon, but it's Australia. It's very outgoing. People are extremely friendly in general, but specifically the Jewish community, everybody knows everyone. And the devotion to the state of Israel throughout the war, to the return of the hostages, the way that every ceremony I went through, schools there, the way that Elisha was accepted, it will always open not only with a prayer for the state of Israel, but also for the prayer for the hostages and the way that Australians work for that and the way that the Jewish organizations, Zionist organizations, are raising and have raised substantial amounts of money to help Israeli south and North. So what I wrote tomorrow morning.
- [25:09]
Dan Senor
You mean for tomorrow morning's paper?
- [25:11]
Nadav Eyal
Yeah. That's the main message that I have in that regard is that we Jewish Australians and American Jews, of course, have been at our side in times of difficulty. And it's our time to ask them what can we do, to hope. And first of all, we need not to interrupt, not to do any damage. They know how to deal with their government even better than Israel. If they need Israel to pressure their government, Israel needs to do that. If they need Israel to sanction their government to get the ambassador back, Israel needs to do that. If they need Israel to send security coordinated with the Jewish community and with the Australian government, Israel needs to do that. And maybe everything I just said is pure nonsense. Jeremy will know better. We need to be very humble about this. Definitely not use it for politics in Israel, because we use everything for politics in Israel. Right. And try and assist this community in time of need. But I have to tell you a story about my time in Australia, which I think gives you an idea already. When I was there, it was in August, many people spoke to me about their sense of security in Australia and whether or not they want to maybe buy a house in Israel, they don't know. Many of the Jewish community in Australia came from South Africa in the last 40 years. And of course to South Africa, they came from another place before that. So there was a fluidity there in terms of security and people were asking questions. And let me just tell you one story. We were staying in Melbourne in a very central place and I was staying with Elie Sharabi and his brother Sharon. Sharon wears a kippah, Eli doesn't wear a kippah. And we were leaving the hotel and then the security guard that was assigned to Elishehabi asked to speak to me by the side and he asked me if I'm friends with them and I said I am. And he said, I want to request something. Yesterday they went to the mall and Sharon was wearing his kippah and he was alone and he didn't see. But because I was there shadowing them, I saw that people were making remarks and that it caused a stir. And I was worried about that, said the security guy. So I want you to ask them to make sure that if they leave the hotel to the mall or anywhere else, they let me know because it's very important. And I said, you can talk with them directly with me. And we spoke all together. Right, but it gives you an example. I was very surprised. It gave me an example of what's happening if someone with the kipa is suddenly causing some sort of even a little stir in Melbourne's main shopping mall. Okay, so that's just one example. But I'll be really happy to hear from Jeremy and from Nomi. What do they think that Israel can do? Or even if Israel shouldn't do anything right now, I think it's a really important message.
- [28:11]
Dan Senor
So Jeremy, I'll go to you. What would you ask of Israel at this time?
- [28:16]
Jeremy Liebler
So, Nadab, I think you really hit on all of the right notes. You know, I just said goodbye to my twin 13 year old boys who had their bar mitzvah a few months ago. They went off to a football clinic and they work your pot. And I did pause and hesitate after last night. For a moment I thought to myself, I'm not going to send them that signal that they need to be worried about that. And I'm not prepared to submit to this atmosphere of legitimate fear, especially after last night, and change the way we live. Last night I had calls from so many friends, family, but also from leaders in Israel, which was really heartwarming. I had Yairi Lapid. I had the President, I had Naftali Bennett, I had Yair Golan, I had almost every political leader reach out to convey their love and their care. And that means a lot for the Jewish community here. It means a lot. And this explosion of Jewish Peoplehood since 7 October, one of the very few positives that have emerged from this trauma. The fact that it is reciprocal means a lot. But I will say this. In the aftermath of a terror attack like this, I believe that the only blame that should be ascribed to anyone is to the perpetrators and those who commissioned them. And I think even in a moral sense, it's incredibly dangerous to start blaming leaders and governments for a terrorist attack now. The perpetrators are responsible for the attack. Governments and leaders are responsible for the environment that was allowed to exist beforehand. That, yes, did facilitate or contribute to it, but they are very two very different things. And so what I would say to our, you know, our friends in Israel and the Israeli government is we appreciate your support. It means a lot. We need that embrace as a family and I think leave it to the Jewish community here to engage with and advocate with our government and with the opposition and with the other leaders in our institutions. That support is incredibly important to have you there. But ultimately, like in any situation, things are a lot more nuanced and complex than perhaps they sometimes appear from afar. And we have to call out where there have been failures in leadership in this country. And there have been very real failures of the leadership. A failure to recognise how serious this problem is. But we don't have a government that is hostile to the Jewish community. We do not have an anti Semitic government. But mistakes have been made and now is the moment, this is the moment now for our government. Are they going to recognize the significance of the events of the last 12 hours, but also to be able to draw the link between the demonization of the Jewish community that has followed the 7th of October and the fact that we are a passionately Zionist community and this stain of genocide, right, that we've seen all around this world, this modern day blood libel has been used against us as a Jewish community here. I don't believe that our leaders have adequately called it out and come to our defense. And now is their opportunity to do so.
- [31:35]
Dan Senor
So, Nomi, I want to ask you about that, I want to have you respond to that because my sense is talking to leaders from Australia, they say, we know what it looks like when our government imposes zero tolerance for something they're trying to disincentivize. Discourage or deter. And the reality is the rhetoric and the demonization and then even some of the violence and vandalism against Jews and Jewish institutions since October 7, 2023, it was not treated with like, the government's priority is zero tolerance. It was treated as, we'd rather not have it than have it. But it was like they had, like downshifted the urgency of shutting it down. Can you talk a little about that.
- [32:19]
Nomi Kaltman
So I can be a little bit less restrained than Jeremy? Because I agree with Jeremy that it's not a hostile government in the sense they're not inherently anti Semitic. But I would disagree on the fact that there isn't causation between what we saw last night, 16 people murdered at a Hanukkah party, and two years of a very weak, a ineffective government that has been wishy washy on anti Semitism. Who's rewarded? They just recognized Palestine. Something that decades of Australian foreign policy had refrained from doing so on the basis that it was a two state solution, negotiated outcome, but it seemed to be a sort of punishing of Israel more than a reward of Palestine to recognize it throughout.
- [33:03]
Dan Senor
Well, they did it while Hamas was still in control of Gaza and while they were still Israeli hostages in the tunnels of Gaza. They recognize the Palestinian state.
- [33:11]
Nomi Kaltman
The entire methodology and how this comes about shows that this is a government whose priorities are wrong, who have contributed to the suffering of Jews in this country. Because it doesn't take a lot to realize that the reason why Jews keep getting targeted is because of rising pressure and tension around this war that's thousands of kilometers from where we live. And so, like all diaspora communities, we're copying the brunt of this negative anti Semitic reaction. And when you have a tepid government, yes, it's not inherently anti Semitic and they're not passing anti Jewish edicts, but they're paralyzed. I spoke with a former Olympian, Nova Peris, and she drew on a really great analogy. She said, when you're the driver of a bus, you have to steer it, otherwise everybody gets injured when it crashes. And that's what it feels like with an inept prime minister, an inept Labor Party, and a lack of resolve to clamp down. And I've, I've spoken about this before in different contexts. If you were in Australia during the COVID 19 pandemic, you found out what it means when Australia says, we are not going to tolerate anything in any form. It was some of the most intense lockdowns. Americans, you think you got locked down, you didn't get Locked down, we were. We couldn't leave our homes more than about 2.2 miles, 5 kilometers. The borders were shut for two and a half years. Even to citizens there was.
- [34:36]
Dan Senor
And if you did leave, you got hit with, like, massive fin. It was very punitive.
- [34:40]
Nomi Kaltman
If I drove beyond my zone, I got a $5,000 fine. So when Australia wants to be tough, Australia can be ruthless and tough. If you look at some of our, you know, refugee policies and boat people policies where we put people in offshore detention, Australia has a zero tolerance approach to people arriving through immigration that, you know, is copied throughout the world because of the zero tolerance approach. And when you're a Jew in this country and you are probably the child or grandchild of Holocaust survivors, or at least people who have come here seeking safety, whether it's from South Africa or another community, and you know, that life has always been good here. And then a massive war breaks out thousands of kilometers away, and you're getting hit in your bakeries, your children's schools, they're setting fire to shuls in the neighborhood. And you have a sort of, in effect, prime minister who seems to be like, oh, yeah, it's not good that that happens. But, you know, a preacher can then incite against us in a mosque and nothing happens to him. Or you have legislation on the books. You know, on October 9th, when people were shouting fuck the Jews or where are the Jews? Why wasn't anybody arrested? Why wasn't anybody charged? Legislation like this already exists on our books. So what's the message you're sending? As the bus driver, as the prime minister, you could take a zero tolerance approach, but you haven't. And when there's protests every week, like Jeremy said, and they're inciting against our community, and yet they're allowed to suspect for week on week on week, and obviously you want people to have the right to protest, and it has to be a fine balance, but it often crosses that red line and nothing happens. You can vilify Jews and get away with it, but what does that tell people? And as Jews, we see ourselves often as a canary in the coal mine. It goes wrong for us, but it doesn't mean that it stays good for everybody else. When you're hitting our community and our community is getting targeted and things are happening that are resulting in very concerning behavior, to me, it's a causation. You allow this permissive, and it's boiling, boiling, boiling, and the temperature's getting higher and higher and higher. I disagree with Jeremy. I thought there would be a Terrorist attack in Australia. I never anticipated it would be a shooting attack, which is very rare. And I never thought we'd be talking about at least 16 people killed. How tragic is that? That's way bigger than I would have thought. But I knew it would escalate and I felt that I was like most Jews in this country feel this government doesn't have our back. And even if you're not inherently anti Semitic, you are responsible for leading the country and you're failing our community. And I wouldn't be surprised if in the next, you know, little while we see a bump in aliyah Jews leaving to Israel and obviously not everybody's going to go and people will still stay. But who wants to live in a country where all Jewish institutions are fortresses, but that's not how other average Australians live.
- [37:28]
Dan Senor
Do you think that you will see a change in behavior from the government now? Do you think this is like an inflection point where the government realizes. Wait a minute. If your characterization is accurate, which is what you just said, which is the government has created a very permissive, let's just say a very permissive environment for hate mongering and demonization against Jews. So it's inevitable that something like this would happen. A version of what we've just seen. Do you think this is now like a wake up call and the government's gonna say, okay, we have allowed for too, too permissive of an environment of hating on Jews?
- [38:01]
Nomi Kaltman
If the Australian government doesn't wake up and do something drastic now and really put that zero tolerance approach that we are begging for and have been begging for for two full years, there is no future for Jewish people in this country. So if this incident isn't the one that forces this ineffective and weak government to do something to protect us, I can't tell you what it is, what, what a future for Jews in this country looks like. So my fervent hope and prayer is that yes, it does cause some drastic action, but am I confident that it will? No, I'm not. Because I don't trust the Prime Minister and I don't trust the Labor Party in charge.
- [38:38]
Dan Senor
Jeremy, I want to give you a moment to respond.
- [38:41]
Jeremy Liebler
Sure. Look, there's no question that the incitement that we've seen on the streets has played a role in the pathway to the culmination in this attack that we saw last night. It's interesting. I've been on a little journey myself. When I think about how do we solve for this? And early on after the 7th of October, we advocate a lot for stronger hate speech laws which have been introduced to both federal and state levels. We have some of the strongest hate speech laws in the world at the moment. In the United States, you couldn't dream of having this level of sort of hate speech restrictions. We've had $120 million of security funding from the government to the Jewish community, and yet it hasn't really touched sides. And I think there are two reasons for that. The first is that ultimately this is really about leadership. It's less about what was said and it's more about what has not been said. And that's where I do. I absolutely agree with Naomi that the government bears enormous responsibility for what they haven't said, for not coming to the defence of the Jewish community when, you know, a few weeks ago, one of the branches of the Labor Party. This is not the government policy. But within Queensland, in one state conference, like sort of one of the branches, a resolution was passed that effectively called for there to be a presumption of, some sort of presumption of guilt of dual Australian Israeli citizens who have served in the idf. I'm very proud to have many cousins and nephews and nieces who are serving and have served in the IDF effectively, that they should be investigated for war crimes. And we don't hear anything from the government notwithstanding. That is not the government's policy. But then why not say so when we see a resolution that effectively calls for BDS and we hear silence, where are they? Why aren't they coming to our defence? And so I think those are the criticisms that endure. And, you know, one of the things we know from history is when antisemitism comes out of the box, it's very, very difficult to put back in. You know, it is tempting to sort of hope and dream that, you know, there is a. There is a fix to this, that if only we had a prime minister or a government that would come out and have a zero tolerance policy, antisemitism would disappear and domestic terrorism would disappear and foreign interference would disappear. But that's wishful thinking. I do think it's important at times like this to take a very, very deep breath. We have seen Naptik in aliyah. Is it connected to. To the rise in antisemitism? I believe in part, but what I think it's really connected to is the fact that we have a passionately Zionist Jewish community that, unlike other Jewish communities, have always maintained aliyah as the ultimate expression of Zionism. Fundamentally, ideologically, that's what we believe and that's something I'm very proud of for this community. And I think we need to remember that for everyone, members of the Jewish community, for Jewish leaders, for our political leaders, the Jewish community here is going to decide how to respond to this. And fear is reasonable. It's understandable. But I'm not prepared to hide behind brick walls in this country. I'm not prepared to hide our Jewish identity, which inherently is our Zionism, in our relationship with the State of Israel. If we refuse to be intimidated, we will overcome this very challenging period. We will not eradicate anti Semitism, no society ever has. But I think we need to focus now, yes, on calling on our leaders to stand up, but we also need to focus on ourselves, on ourselves inwardly within the Jewish community to ensure that our children are not defined by both the trauma of the 7th of October. They're not defined by this explosion of anti Semitism. I grew up in a generation of. As Normie did, she's a little bit younger than me, but I grew up as a generation of post Holocaust Jews whose all, many, many of my contemporaries, their entire Jewish identity was off the back of Holocaust guilt. I was lucky enough to have a very full bucket next to it of Jewish values and all of the positive things associated with being a proud Jew. Now, I can tell you Jewish guilt doesn't survive more than one generation. So if we want to maintain a thriving Jewish Diaspora in this country, it has to be off the back of Jewish pride, Jewish literacy, Jewish knowledge, right? And not to fall into this trap of obsessing about our enemies. And we have enemies. We always have, we always will. We need to fight it. We need to make sure we're secure. We need our government to protect us. But we as a community need to focus on the power of being a proud Jew and what that means for us and for society as a whole, including the broader Australian society.
- [43:19]
Dan Senor
But, Jeremy, if this could be a turning point for how the government deals with fights anti Semitism, while at the same time Jews are expressing more pride and more communal commitment in the way you're describing. And at the same time, there's still an increase in Australians making the decision to leave Australia. I mean, all three of those things could happen simultaneously. And in a recent episode of Inside Call Me Back, where we take questions from our subscribers, one asked me one what should Jews. This is. A subscriber from Australia asked me, what should Jews, Australian Jews do who want to make aliyah feel a sense of urgency about making aliyah for the environment that existed before the last 24 hours and you can imagine there'll be all the more a sense of urgency. But this Australian asked me, but what if we don't have the means to make aliyah? What do we do? And you're at the nerve center of the community. Is this something the community's thinking about? About for those Australian Jews who want to make aliyah, how to make it easier, more doable, more feasible, more seamless?
- [44:22]
Jeremy Liebler
Well, look, we just had a couple of months ago, the first aliyah fair where we had the aliyah minister, we had a whole delegation from the aliyah ministry come out. There was enormous attendance. The Israeli government, to their credit, is conscious of this. They've just announced, you know, further tax breaks and benefits for those making aliyah for the first two years, effectively not paying income tax. There are already existing tax breaks for many or lim. So this is absolutely something that is at the forefront of our thinking and we've increased resources around supporting and marketing aliyah. But I have to tell you, maybe this is just the old school ideologue in me. I believe there are far more reasons to make aliyah that are connected to being able to live a full Jewish meaningful life right in the third Jewish Commonwealth than there are push factors connected to anti Semitism. Because, you know, let's be clear here. If we, if we really want to look at this from a purely security perspective, there are dangers living in Israel too, okay? So I think looking at things simply through the prism of anti Semitism, it's tempting, but it doesn't really give us the full picture. And ultimately, you know, one can make aliyah today. The joke used to be, when I was growing up, if you want to make a, a small fortune in Israel, go there with a large fortune. That is not the case today. Right. We have, notwithstanding the war, we have, you know, Israel has, you know, a thriving economy, a high tech sector that is booming, and there are many, many other reasons to go and live in Israel beyond the anti Semitism that we're experiencing here in this country.
- [45:57]
Nomi Kaltman
If I can jump in, I would say I'm 33 years of age and about. I graduated from Jeremy's family school, libly Avner College 15 years ago. And out of the 60 kids in my year, at least a third 20 live in Israel. So they're the smartest, most talented. The people that would have been the leaders of our Australian Jewish community are in high tech, are working, you know, as doctors, as lawyers, super high achievers. So Israel is already skimming the best and the most brightest of Australian Jewry. And to that Australian, that young Australian who's worried about how to start Israel, the Israeli government will get you a lot of a bunch of benefits. Two of my siblings live in Israel. In my current stage, with five kids, a mortgage, a day job, I can't pick up and go. But if you want to go, go young and start your life there. And you'll be successful there, but equally so you can live in Australia and hopefully this government is going to get it right and protect our community. Because you may not have as rich a Jewish life in Australia, but you can still have a very meaningful and good life. Or at least historically you could have. Up until October 7, 2023. I always loved being an Australian Jew, albeit I was sometimes jealous of my classmates living and breathing the Zionist dream of living in Israel.
- [47:17]
Dan Senor
I want to end with a quote from my friend Tal Becker, who's originally from Australia, spent his formative years in Australia. He's a regular on the Call Me Back podcast. Our listeners are, I'm sure, very familiar with him. He sent me this message on WhatsApp this morning describing what he thinks are the factors that culminated in this horror of the last 24 hours. And I'm reading here from Tal quote It seems to emerge from a mixture of unchecked immigration of really radical elements, an epidemic of woke politics that is almost inevitably suicidal for Australian society, and a system that doesn't know what evil is or is too afraid to act decisively against it. A deadly combination that is a breeding ground for hate and terror. In the pain of this moment, the country that raised me and I love so much feels lost to me in my imagination and through my childhood. It was the freest place I know on the earth. It was called the lucky country for a reason. It feels like its luck has run out for Jews and as a direct consequence for everyone. Close Quotes that's from Tal Becker. Nomi, I'll go to you first and then to Jeremy. Just any reaction to that? On this tension that is sort of undergirding this entire conversation and the Tal speaks to it's this place you love, this community you love, and yet this place that has been lost to the Jews. And whether or not one can live with both that tension of loving this community and yet this community being lost to the country in which it resides.
- [48:57]
Nomi Kaltman
I would agree with Tal that this is the lucky country and historically has been the lucky country. And I might be, I guess, hopefully slightly more optimistic. We're speaking to you the morning after one of the worst Terrorist attacks in Australian history and the targeting of Jewish people. And I might be naive, but I hope it goes back to the lucky country that Jews have always loved and lived. And Jeremy's right, it's, it's impossible to get rid of antisemitism. But I think that if we have the right leadership, we might be able to at least reduce the tension that Jews are living with. And I would hate to see this as the end of the road for Australian Jews. 1788 was the first convict, the penal convict boat that arrived from England with 1,400 prisoners amongst convicts, amongst them six Jews. So we've been here since the establishment of modern Australia and we've enriched the fabric of this country so much through our contribution to medicine, arts, politics, every area of life Jews have contributed to. So if this was to be the end of the road for Jews, I think you'll see that Australia will also struggle. And hopefully people can come to their senses and realize it doesn't just stay with us if it's going downhill. Their lives are not going to be the lives of the luckiest people in the luckiest country on earth anymore.
- [50:23]
Dan Senor
Jeremy.
- [50:24]
Jeremy Liebler
Well, look, I think Tull, as usual and you know, Tull was my madruch in Pinakiva growing up, so I learned a lot from Tull and he's one of our most favorite and we're very proud of having him as an export, but he nails it. And I think hearing you read out Tull's thoughts, it really clarified for me if I had to describe where the government fundamentally went wrong at a high level. It was within only a couple of months initially they got it, but within a couple of months, as we started to see humanitarian suffering on our TVs in Gaza, it didn't take very long and there was moral confusion fundamentally as to who was on the right side of history, who was the barbaric terrorist organization and who was the liberal democracy and the moral confusion. They were unable to express dismay and concern for innocent people who are suffering without understanding and very clearly demonstrating where the moral blame lies for that suffering. And after that, that is when things started to go downhill, fundamentally being unable to tell the difference between good and bad and right and wrong. And I don't think we're going back NAMI. I'm sorry, we're not going back to the 6th of October. We're not going back anywhere in the world to the 6th of October. The Jewish world, the state of Israel has changed forever. I think our collective mission is to ensure that the Future isn't simply living in the misery of that trauma, but actually builds on, uses the trauma. And we use our resilience and our strength to build a proud, strong future for the next generation, for all of our children. And I believe we can do so.
- [52:06]
Dan Senor
Nadav, I want to give you the last word. So I'm just curious how you're processing all of this. And by the way, I just want to put an exclamation point on something you said earlier. And Nomi and Jeremy, you should know this. When Nadav went to Australia and he came back, it was at the end of the summer or September. He called me right away and he's like, he was so moved by the experience of being with the Australian Jewish community. So everything he said, I just want to like triple, quadruple, underline it. He was just struck what an incredible impact it had on you.
- [52:30]
Nadav Eyal
So I have two main messages here that I think are important. First of all, and this is something that we discussed in Insider Call Me Back, but not only on Insider Call Me back then, Jews living in the Diastra were always important for Zionism because they were the pool from which new Olim will come to Israel or people will support the Zionist endeavor. And I think that we need to reform that approach. There's an intrinsic meaning to life not only in Eretz Yisrael. We need to acknowledge that. And I acknowledge that as a fifth generation Zionist, my family is. Its blood has been spilt and it has spilled blood in order to maintain our existence in Eretz Yisrael. And I can definitely consider myself a Zionist. But I can also appreciate the importance of these diasporas surviving and thriving and thriving and growing not only as an instrumental thing for the state of Israel. And the second thing is something that I told the Jewish community and that is that we Israelis should be extremely, extremely thankful. And we should practice two words we don't say too much, and that is thank you or even thank you very much for what these communities have been doing. And it's not about the resources. It's not even traveling to Israel during war, although that's a lot. And coming from Australia, you know, it's much more pricey, it takes much more time. But it's about how people very far away, in the case of Australia, the furthest away from Eretz Israel possibly will, kept thinking about us. And I think this is really crucial to remember. And I'm listening to this conversation. And of course, as an Israeli, you know, the truth is that I would want everyone to pack up and find themselves. It's my interest as an Israeli to live in Israel, but also my psyche as a Jew, as a Jew is telling me these diaspora communities are important for our identity, for our meaning, even for our survival. We need them to prosper and we need to start giving back. Israel is strong enough to give back, to give back to these communities whatever they need. They might not need anything, they might even need then something that Israeli politicians will find really hard and a hard sacrifice, which is basically sometimes to shut up. Maybe that's what they need at a certain point, I don't know. But this is my main message in that regard and of course sharing with the grief of my friends in Australia in this very terrible moment. My experience with the politics when something like this happens, and I hope I won't be wrong, is that people will convene around the Jewish community. Now that's my experience. I think that's the, by the way, the political thing to do. I want to read you on a different note, the announcement made by Qatar. Did you see that, Dan? The Ministry of Foreign affairs in Qatar had a note, a response, a comment to what happened. And this was published hours, many hours, when we already knew the type of the event here. And I want to read that to you. The State of Qatar expresses its condemnation in denunciation of the attack that took place in Bondi beach near Sydney, Australia, which resulted in deaths and injuries. The Ministry of Foreign affairs deteriorates the State of Qatar's firm stance against violence, terrorism and criminal acts, regardless of the motives or reasons, so forth and so forth. No Jews, no Hanukkah, no anti. Semitism. You know, this goes much beyond an oversight. This message is cynicism because the Qataris know exactly what they did here. They know what they did here and they did it on purpose. And this is the Qataris saying to Israel and saying to the Jewish communities abroad, basically, screw you. This is what they're saying in this announcement. And if the Qataris think, and this is what they're trying to do, so re legitimizing themselves, if they think that Israelis are going to forget, and I think Jewish communities are going to forget, they have no idea who they're messing with. We are people with a very long memory. And I think that they're doing a terrible, terrible mistake in the way that they are addressing this because this country definitely intends to be around, but it cannot escape probably the ideology that is hidden behind all of these forums and all of the way that it wants to give itself an air of an international or regional leader.
- [57:38]
Dan Senor
All right, we will leave it there. Nadav. No, me. Jeremy, thank you for being here. Thank you for scrambling to come on on such short notice and coordinating across crazy time zones all around. The fact that we had a New York, Tel Aviv and Australia time zone on every all intersecting at a moment that we could spend this hour together was no small feat. So I, I really want to thank you. And we're thinking about this community. We stand with the Australian community. They are, they are very close to our call me back community and to the Jewish community here in the US and obviously as Nadav spoke to in Israel and I, I hope to have you back on, but I want it to be on not during these emergency crisis, rather demoralizing events. So until then. And it's weird for me to say this, but I'll say it. Chag Hanukkah Sameach, I hope you gain some kind of inspiration and expression of pride during this hag, even against the backdrop and maybe especially against the backdrop of this horrific time.
- [58:43]
Nomi Kaltman
Thank you, Dan. And hopefully we'll come on to do a feature on our vibrant, amazing community. Not in a crisis like this.
- [58:50]
Dan Senor
From your lips to God's ears. That's our show for today. If you value the Call Me Back podcast and you want to support our mission, please subscribe to our weekly members only show, Inside Call Me Back. Inside Call Me Back is where Nadavayal Amit Segal and I respond to challenging questions from listeners and have the conversations that typically occur after the cameras stop rolling. To subscribe, please follow the link in the show notes or you can go to arkmedia.org that's ark media.org call me back is produced and edited by Ilan Benatar. ARC Media's executive producer is Adam James Levin Aretti. Our production manager is Brittany Cohn. Sound and video editing by Liquid Audio. Our associate producer is Maya Rockoff. Community management by Gabe Silverstein. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor. Right now, tens of thousands of Israeli veterans are battling ptsd. But only some of these men and women are able to recover through conventional treatment. Because often what veterans need is not a therapist, but a friend who can truly relate to their experiences on the battlefield. That's where BuddyLine comes in. A program of American Friends of Israel Navy Seals, Buddyline pairs Israeli Navy SEAL veterans with IDF combat veterans struggling with severe ptsd. The pair spend a year rebuilding trust, confidence and connection. It's warrior to warrior care and for more than 500 struggling veterans to date, it has been a lifeline back to society. For a brief video on Buddyline and to support the program, click the link in our show notes and visit American Friends of Israel Navy seals or search afins US Forward Slash Warrior Care. Your gift, big or small, can help someone find their way back.