How the U.N. Weaponizes the Famine Narrative in Gaza - with Rich Goldberg

Summary

---

Podcast Summary

Call Me Back – with Dan Senor

Episode: How the U.N. Weaponizes the Famine Narrative in Gaza – with Rich Goldberg
Date: August 28, 2025
Guest: Rich Goldberg, Senior Advisor at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies; former U.S. National Security Council staffer; former congressional foreign policy advisor.

---

Overview

This episode explores how the United Nations (UN), particularly through UNRWA (the UN Relief and Works Agency), has shaped global narratives around famine and humanitarian aid in Gaza. Host Dan Senor and guest Rich Goldberg examine the effectiveness and motives of different humanitarian aid distribution models, the symbiotic relationship between the UN and Hamas, and the consequences for both policy and public perception. The core argument is that the UN, in Goldberg’s analysis, has “weaponized” the famine narrative to maintain its influence and funding model in Gaza—a model deeply intertwined with Hamas’s governance.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pre-October 7th: The UN-Hamas Aid Business Model

[05:55–10:34]

• Goldberg describes the last 20 years of Gaza as a tightly-woven business operation between the UN (via UNRWA) and Hamas:

  “Hamas and the UN are in bed together in a business model that keeps the Strip going. The business model keeps Hamas in power and allows international aid to flow and be distributed and ensure that they control where all the world’s money is going.” (Goldberg, 06:19)

• UNRWA became the flagship, employing many locals, running education, healthcare, and sanitation—serving the vast majority of Gazan “refugees,” which Goldberg notes is a concept kept alive for political leverage.

• Coordination across aid organizations: All aid, even from bodies like UNICEF, WHO, or the World Food Program, had to be run through UNRWA, further entrenching this model.

2. UNRWA’s Status and Criticisms

[09:31–12:23]

• From Israel and the U.S. perspective, UNRWA and Hamas were "interchangeable.” Goldberg points out the UN does not recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization, which affects aid neutrality.

  “Neutrality is a UN principle. They are saying in code: We don’t take sides against Hamas. Hamas is simply a political actor...” (Goldberg, 10:11)

3. Post-October 7th: Aid Distribution Shifts

[10:34–14:34]

• Revelations of UNRWA’s complicity with Hamas: Participation in October 7th attacks by employees, and UN facilities co-located with Hamas.

• Israeli response: Cut off UNRWA, designating them persona non grata; encouraged other NGOs and non-UN aid efforts.

• UN’s reaction: Institutional resistance; the Secretary General insisted no UN agency would participate in any model seeking to supplant UNRWA.

• Formation of Gaza Humanitarian Fund (GHF): Created as an alternate, non-UN, non-Hamas distribution model.

4. Evidence of Aid Model Effectiveness

[00:09–01:10], [14:34–17:02]

• Goldberg provides a striking contrast:

  “70% of the aid distribution in Gaza is non United Nations. 30% is United Nations. 100% of the GHF trucks reach their destination... According to the UN, 12% of their trucks reach their destination without being diverted.” (Goldberg, 00:09 and 14:34)

• Goldberg’s interpretation:

  “Which model is more effective? Obviously it’s the non-Hamas, UN business model. And let’s be even more cynical: The UN’s raising a lot of money claiming famine in Gaza. It’s a cash cow for the UN system.” (00:52, 16:31)

5. The Weaponization of the Famine Narrative

[20:53–26:31]

• Inflating the crisis:
  Goldberg accuses the UN of overstating famine conditions for institutional self-preservation and fundraising, manipulating Western media and policymakers:

  “Hamas and the UN want the media to paint Gaza like it’s Darfur... What is the reality? There’s clearly a lot of food in Gaza... I see ration-type hunger. I don’t see famine-level hunger, certainly not systemic, not widespread, and not an intentional policy of an Israeli government.” (Goldberg, 18:25)

• Information warfare:
  The UN’s refusal to cooperate with non-Hamas models and its propagation of “starvation” stories are, according to Goldberg, about collapsing GHF’s legitimacy and restoring UNRWA.

6. Data Wars and Information Vacuums

[26:31–29:07]

• Data credibility issues:
  With Israel lacking on-the-ground data, Hamas and its affiliated bodies fill the vacuum:

  “How do you fight bad data with no data?...The conveyor belt is Hamas’s health ministry... There needs to be some sort of alternative data collection program.” (Goldberg, 27:07)

• Media failure:
  Media quickly accepts and disseminates Gaza Ministry of Health claims without sufficient skepticism or independent verification.

7. “Neutrality” Doctrine—Flawed or Biased?

[29:07–34:51]

• NGOs claim neutrality:
  Dan poses that UN bodies might just be technocrats seeking to “feed as many people as possible,” but Goldberg rebuts:

  “There is an actual sympathy on the Hamas side. There is not neutrality.” (Goldberg, 31:27)

• Historical contrasts:
  Goldberg notes that the UN has at times allowed forceful protection of aid convoys (e.g., against the Taliban), questioning why Hamas is treated differently.

• Policy recommendations:
  Goldberg calls for the U.S. to push for UN designation of Hamas as a terrorist group and sanctions against UNRWA; suggests U.S. apply leverage over World Food Program leadership.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the UN business model:

  “The UN’s raising a lot of money on claiming famine in Gaza. It’s a cash cow for the UN system.”
  (Goldberg, 01:00, repeated at 16:31)

• On neutrality:

  “Neutrality is a UN principle. They are saying in code: We don’t take sides against Hamas.”
  (Goldberg, 10:11)

• On aid effectiveness:

  "100% of the GHF trucks that are trucking aid reach their destination... According to the UN, 12% of their trucks reach their destination without being diverted. Which model is more effective? Obviously it’s the non-Hamas, UN business model."
  (Goldberg, 00:09, 14:34)

• On the weaponization of famine:

  “I call it the UN Hunger Games. People can be offended by that. It’s what I call it. I think it’s a scandal.”
  (Goldberg, 25:55)

• On data credibility:

  “One of the colossal failures of the press corps is to accept Gaza Ministry of Health information as fact and never to say, ‘We can’t verify this, it’s controlled by a terrorist organization.’”
  (Goldberg, 28:23)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:55] – UN-Hamas business model explained
• [10:34] – Post-October 7th exposure of UNRWA-Hamas relationship
• [14:34] – GHF model effectiveness; statistical data
• [18:25] – Credible assessment of hunger and famine conditions
• [21:18] – How the UN shaped and spread famine narrative
• [27:07] – Information/data warfare and the role of the Gaza Health Ministry
• [29:57] – Debate over “neutrality” of UN agencies
• [34:51] – Prescriptive policy recommendations

---

Tone and Language

The conversation is urgent, critical, and forthright, with the host and guest blending policy analysis, political skepticism, and some pointed cynicism—especially toward UN bodies and narratives presented in major Western media. Goldberg’s delivery is authoritative, fact-focused, and often challenges conventional wisdom.

---

Conclusion

The episode provides a bracing critique of the UN’s role in Gaza. Goldberg and Senor argue that the UN’s insistence on using its traditional business model not only perpetuates Hamas’s control over aid but also stokes an international narrative of famine for organizational gain. The GHF model is held up as a more effective, less corrupt alternative, though it faces institutional resistance. The conversation closes with actionable recommendations: cut off funding to UNRWA, designate Hamas as a terrorist entity in the UN system, and demand accountability from major UN agencies involved in aid.

---

This summary covers all substantive content discussed between Dan Senor and Rich Goldberg. Non-content sections such as advertisements, intros, outros, and promotions have been omitted.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

You are listening to an art Media podcast.

[A]

70% of the aid distribution in Gaza is non United Nations. 30% is United Nations. 100% of the GHF trucks that are trucking aid reach their destination and deliver directly to civilians. And According to the UN, 12% of their trucks reach their destination without being diverted. Which model is more effective? Obviously it's the non Hamas UN business model. This is the change in the business model and it directly threatens Hamas. It directly threatens the UN operations and way of doing business in Gaza. And let's be even more cynical and honest for one second. The UN's raising a lot of money on claiming famine in Gaza. It's a cash cow for the UN system.

[B]

It's 11am on Wednesday, August 27th in New York City. It's 6pm on Wednesday, August 27th in Israel as Israelis wind down their day before we start is if you are a subscriber to our Members Only feed inside Call Me Back. Please make sure you listen to the episode that says Extended in the title. That's because every Thursday we release an extended version to our Inside Call Me Back subscribers. This week includes a Q and A with me. The Q and A is for members only, so if you are an Inside CallMeBack member, make sure you're listening on the Inside CallMeBack feed or go to arcmedia.org to learn how to become a member yesterday. On Tuesday, hundreds of thousands of Israelis took to the streets, urging the Israeli government to secure a hostage ceasefire deal rather than expand the war in Gaza. This comes over a week after Hamas announced it had approved a hostage ceasefire proposal. But Israeli officials continue to insist that the government will only agree to a comprehensive agreement that would see the return of all hostages rather than a partial phased deal. Also on Tuesday, Prime Minister Netanyahu held a cabinet meeting to approve operational plans for the takeover of Gaza City. On Monday, the prime minister's office announced that Israel is ready to support Lebanon's efforts to disarm Hezbollah and will implement a phased reduction of IDF troops in Lebanon as a, quote, reciprocal measure. This follows moves by Lebanese President Joseph Aoun, Prime Minister Nawaf Salam and other Lebanese leaders to establish a state military monopoly on arms by the end of the year. In other news, on Tuesday, Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese accused Iran of being behind two anti Semitic arson attacks in 2024, one that targeted a kosher deli and the other a Melbourne synagogue. Albanese announced that Australia is pulling its diplomats from Iran and will list the IRGC as a terror organization this comes just after Prime Minister Netanyahu sent a scathing letter to Albanese accusing him of abandoning Australia's Jews after the Australian Prime Minister announced country would recognize a Palestinian state. Now on to today's conversation. On Friday, August 22, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification IPC, which is a global hunger monitor which is organized by the UN and other NGOs, declared for the first time that famine had struck northern Gaza. The report estimated that roughly half a million people, a quarter of Gaza's population, are experiencing famine. Israel quickly denied the charge, accusing the IPC of biased and self interested sources originating from Hamas. Discerning between facts and disinformation about the food situation and the hunger situation in Gaza has proven difficult. But one aspect is already quite clear. The UN has played a pivotal role in weaponizing the famine narrative as part of its campaign to against the Israel and U S backed Gaza Humanitarian foundation, which you often hear referred to as the GHF. The GHF supplanted the UN's and UNRWA's role and influence in Gaza. To discuss this we are joined by Rich Goldberg. Rich is a Senior Advisor at the foundation for Defense of Democracies. He served in both Trump administrations, including on the White House National Security Council staff and as a Navy Reserve Intelligence officer, which with experience on the Joint Staff and in Afghanistan. He also, and most relevant to this conversation, served for a decade on Capitol Hill, both in the House and the Senate in congressional foreign policy roles, providing oversight of all humanitarian aid programs from the UN in the Middle East. Rich, welcome to the podcast.

[A]

Thanks for having me back.

[B]

As I said in the introduction, you are someone who has been so studying the UN, studying the UN's operations in the Middle east, specifically in Israel and Gaza, Gaza and the west bank for many, many years, especially when you were working in Congress. And there's so many ways to get at this whole issue of alleged famine or starvation in parts of Gaza. You know what led to it and what trying to better understand what the facts are. There's so many different angles, but with you today, I think the only way to do this in the podcast is to do piece by piece. And the piece I want to do today is on the un. So I just want to start by having you explain to us the UN aspect of the famine narrative. And can you do so by first describing what the UN's operations were in Gaza before the Gaza Humanitarian foundation took over aid distribution?

[A]

Dan, I think this is a fundamental missed point in all of this. For 20 years now, we're 20 years in to a new paradigm in Gaza post the Israeli disengagement when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and eventually Hamas very quickly took control of the Strip where the UN in Gaza is the Gaza based economy largely for Hamas. Hamas and the UN are in bed together in a business model that keeps the Strip going. The business model keeps Hamas in power and allows international aid to flow and be distributed and ensure that they control where all the world's money is going in with goods and services. And the UN just creates this infrastructure, this organization that's totally embedded with Hamas in control of the Strip to keep its own operations going. Now the hub, the flagship of this Hamas UN business model for the Strip's economy was always unrwa, right? The UN Relief and Works Agency. This is the aid agency that goes back to post independence war of Israel that is supposed to be established for quote unquote, refugees, Palestine refugees of the conflict. This is the political manifestation of the right of return. The Arab armies aren't done with Israel. Don't go anywhere. You know, Palestinian refugees don't come to Arab countries the way that Jews who fled Arab countries came to Israel or other places. And you stay in camps, you stay as refugees. And we're going to build a UN infrastructure around you to care for you. Until such time as the Arab armies come back and we liberate Palestine, this new Israel is gone. We drive the Jews into the sea and you all come back. Well, of course that didn't happen. 67, 73. You keep going on. UNRWA is still there. UNRWA gets built out, by the way, not just in Gaza, but it exists within the existing Palestinian authorities of the West Bank. It exists in Jordan, in Syria, if you can believe it, in Lebanon, where the Lebanese really hated the Palestinians and treat them terribly. But in Gaza, particularly after the Israelis withdraw, UNRWA is the game in town. UNRWA is considering almost the entire population of the Gaza Strip, nearly 2 million people, to be refugees, quote, unquote. They've only known Gaza as their home, but they're refugees because they're supposed to come back and kick the Jews out of Israel one day, put them into the sea. This is a larger, broader point on UNRWA and its problems which you've covered with other guests and I think your listeners know about, but understand from an economy perspective, you're talking about jobs, you're talking about the people running UNRWA schools and working there and clinics and sanitation and all these different aspects of international aid, all coordinated through UNRWA as the primary body there. Interestingly, the UN has all these other agencies that do aid work around the world. They also operate in Gaza to some extent, now more than ever. But they all have to coordinate through unrwa. UNRWA is the coordination body. These people are refugees, supposedly. They don't belong to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees like all other refugees. Just unrwa. You have food aid coming in. You coordinate the delivery through unrwa. The World Food Program is not actually in charge of it. They might coordinate. They'll contribute to it. They run it through unrwa. You have some medical assistance, either from UNICEF for Children or the who, the World Health Organization. Come on in. No problem. You coordinate it through unrwa. That is the business model for Gaza. And of course, because you're employed from the Strip, you're employed from the Hamas government, you're working with Hamas. It's completely linked together.

[B]

And that business model was so corrupt and complicated because I just want to put a fine point on it, because from your standpoint, UNRWA and Hamas were basically interchangeable. And if one of the objectives of the war post October 7th is to dislodge Hamas from Gaza, which UNRWA cannot keep functioning.

[A]

Correct. And another fundamental point not to be missed. Hamas is not a terrorist organization in the eyes of the United Nations. It is not. It is a political organization. Might be an armed group. There's a political group, There's a healthcare group, there's an information group. Right. They're not terrorists. They're not a terrorist group. They're not on the UN sanctions list. Nor is Islamic Jihad, which obviously partners as well, and hold some of the hostages. Key facts to always remember when people talk about neutral neutrality in how they deliver aid. Neutrality is a UN principle. They are saying in code. We don't take sides against Hamas. Hamas is simply a political actor that we have to deal with in the place where we work.

[B]

Okay, so now get to post October 7th.

[A]

So post October 7th. I mean, we've now transitioned and to go back through it, but you start seeing that aid distribution is not working through the UN model. UNWRA is being exposed for all of its complicity with Hamas over the years. Its employees being exposed, employees who participated in October 7th. But more so as the Israeli military operations are underway, they're seeing the coordination going on between UNRWA and other UN agencies and Hamas itself with the aid deliveries, diverting aid, subjecting aid distribution to whatever Hamas wants to do in the areas where they control. They See facilities being co located with Hamas headquarters. Famously, you know, the power supply in a major UNRWA office literally tied down into the tunnels for Hamas in one area. Long dossiers on this. The Israelis realized we're not going to be able to win this war in the aid distribution and control of territory and governance if the aid is completely co opted and in coordination with Hamas, we're going to have to do something different now. First is to isolate unrwa. And that's where you saw the Israelis finally take a step against international pressure to basically declare UNRWA to be a terrorist group and say, you're out of business in Gaza. We will not work with you. You're on the sidelines. Welcome other UN agencies to step up. Welcome other international NGOs to step up. But UNRA, you are Persona non grata here. We can't work with you. Key important fact to remember of when this went down, the United nations said, no way, over our dead body. The UN Secretary General. And this is around the time that Congress is cutting off funding in 2024, as you recall. You know, while all this information's coming out.

[B]

Cutting off specifically for unrwa.

[A]

For unrwa, right. The Biden administration halted it because of the political pressure and backlash from various exposes that were coming out. Other countries remained in, they still have money coming in, but the Israelis held firm and said, we're not going to work with them. The Secretary General of the UN organized this mass UN agency letter, this declaration of principles where all the major organizations heads. You think of unicef, you think of World Food Program, you think of who, etc. UNRWA declared in unison, we will not participate in any activity, in any service that seeks to replace unrwa. UNWRA is here to stay. It will come back. We're not going to push UNRWA out of business. Remember this, it is the policy of the UN Secretary General to save unrwa, to save the UN Hamas business model. And there is direction given and commitment from the various heads of other organizations to not do anything that disrupts the business model long term. Okay? Donald Trump's in office. He has an executive order come out early on. He's not gonna fund unwra. Okay? It'll stay. It'll be back. We outlasted Donald Trump for four years last time and we can outlast him again. And UNRWA will return. And this is intrinsically tied because who's watching all of this? Hamas, they have an interest in maintaining this business model relationship. So the negotiating posture of Hamas. The terms that Hamas puts forward, their tactics are all interlinked to this UN fight over who distributes aid and whether it's a un, UNRWA led or other UN organization led model or a disruption of that model that will then disrupt Hamas's governance model as well. So this brings us into sort of modern day May the Gaza Humanitarian foundation emerges. There's going to be a plan to actually dislodge the United Nations Hamas business model in Gaza and do it outside the un. Potentially. UN should participate. A lot money coming in. The US taxpayer dollars continue to flow.

[B]

Well, hold on, when you say the UN should participate, what do you mean by that?

[A]

There can be a model where private goods are coming in. Maybe the IDF is providing security, coordination and coordinate with the non UN entities that are also working with local Palestinians who want to find non Hamas aid distribution efforts and set up non Hamas governance in Gaza so you can transition to a post war governance situation. And Hamas really finally gets put out of business financially, economically and from extorting the population through aid. Okay, so GHF is set up here, Dan. One distribution in central Gaza, three in the south. And you already see other NGOs coming, aligned NGOs that do support GHF or let's call them GHF interested and a lot of them from the evangelical Christian community which does incredible work around the world. And they're saying, wow, we're going to send more aid, we're going to be helpful statistic. Okay, I got this just this week from the Israelis. An incredible statistic. As of this week, Dan, 70% of the aid distribution in Gaza is non United Nations, 30% is United Nations. Totally upside down in how things used to be a total threat to the business model. And amazingly which we can also talk about, 100% of the GHF trucks that are trucking aid reach their destination and deliver directly to civilians. And According to the UN, 12% of their trucks reach their destination without being diverted. Which model is Hamas free? Which model is more effective? Obviously it's the non Hamas UN business model and there's a lot of food that's being wasted. You've seen the videos of trucks just sitting around trucks being raided because they refuse security coordination with the IDF or private security from the un. Could you imagine if the World Food Program put more of its aid into GHF and had additional distribution times? Lines would be shorter, more people would have access to food. This is the change in the business model and it directly threatens homage Hamas. It directly threatens the UN operations and way of doing business in Gaza. And let's be even more cynical and honest for one second. The UN's raising a lot of money on claiming famine in Gaza. It's a cash cow for the UN system.

[B]

So let's just. I just want to break this down. Israel and the US have a problem with unrwa. The US and Israel are not saying, I just want to be clear that the UN is therefore barred from playing any role. They just think that UNRWA has been seriously compromised. And I think what you're saying is the UN is saying we and UNRWA are either in charge of all of it or we're basically going to participate in none of it.

[A]

That is effectively how things are playing out. But if you look at certain other elements of the UN and Gaza that have bases in Gaza, the Office of the Coordination of Humanitarian affairs called ocha, which is supposed to be like, you know, sort of what UNRWA was in Gaza, this is what they do elsewhere where they're like the chief coordinator of all the organizations. And they've had to fill that role. Now, increasingly, as UNRWA's pulled back those OCHA folks in Gaza, look at what they've said since October 7th. These people are pro Hamas. They're in bed with Hamas, who individuals in Gaza. Not good. Not good. Okay, so these are traditionally organizations where we think well of them. Even unicef, wfp, we trust in the WFP all around the world. And that has broken on us in Gaza as well.

[B]

Okay, what would you say is a credible, you're, you know, you're following this closely. What is a credible assessment of the actual conditions in Gaza as it relates to food and food security?

[A]

The way that I describe this, in my view is it's not Sudan, it's not paradise. Okay. Hamas and the UN want the media to paint Gaza like it's Darfur. Okay. Which is why I think you see the recycling of horrifying photos of certain children on front page stories. They're horrifying photos. And that's what people want you to think of every child in Gaza, every person in Gaza. This is what's going on the face of Gaza are these horrifying photos. What is the reality? Well, nobody's going to sit around and say things are great. Right? There's clearly a lot of food in Gaza. We know that from international aid, know that from the reports as of last week. The Israelis will tell you 8,000 trucks carrying food have entered Gaza since May. Okay. By the way, that's two and a half times higher than what the UN data shows. Because the UN wants the media to report only UN connected trucks. This is a lot of food being distributed. Gaza Humanitarian foundation will say we've distributed more than 139 million meals since May. On a daily basis. They're saying a million meals delivered just to two distribution sites. That's a lot. Okay. But what the critics will say is, okay, well that's mostly in the south, a little bit in central Gaza. What's happening in northern Gaza where that's really sort of where the UN and its aid mechanism is failing? Are there pockets of people who are not getting enough food? Yes, I think it's crazy to deny that. Of course that's true. Is it famine? I don't see evidence of that. Is it starvation policy? Quite the opposite. People would probably look at this in a warfare strategy manual and say, this is nuts. You're feeding the enemy quite clearly. So of course, fundamentally you're fighting an information machine, an infrastructure that is Gaza based. Hamas controlled. Hamas information conveyor belt. The UN doesn't really have independent data. It's a battlefield, of course, one of the most unique wars where you're not allowed to move people out of the battlefield. You have to keep them in the center of fighting as you're doing aid distribution. They're not allowed to be refugees from this war. Like the only war. You're not allowed to be a refugee. Why? Of course? Because you have to keep them in their current refugee status so that they can be ready one day to destroy Israel. Right. But yes, I mean, I've talked to credible people who say they walked around. They're people who have been in Bosnia, they've been in Sudan, and they say, I think there could be more food here. I see ration type hunger. I don't see famine level hunger, certainly not systemic, not widespread, and not an intentional policy of an Israeli government.

[B]

Okay, so what role did the UN play in taking the conditions that you described? Conceding where there are problems, it may not be a famine, but there are definitely problems and there's hunger. We can go through all the reasons why it exists, but then you're saying that the UN played a role in taking those conditions and blowing them way out of proportion. So how did the UN do that?

[A]

Okay, what is the UN doing here? How has it played a disinformation role? Okay, remember this edict that has gone out from the Secretary General. Do not do anything that dislodges our business model. I have spoken to several high Placed officials who are connected inside the United nations, people who have served in the highest levels of some of these international aid organizations in the past, who are, let's say, more aligned with the United States policy at the moment. And they all say the same thing. The Secretary General has consolidated his power around all these major aid organizations and has continued to keep that policy going. Do not do anything that lets GHF succeed, that renders UNRA unable to come back. Keep the business model intact. We have, in fact, seen them try to deny that their trucks aren't moving, that there's just not enough aid. The Israelis are the reason why aid's not getting to the people. IDF restrictions, border crossing, customs things. They won't allow the trucks in. They won't allow the trucks to move. Multiple times this has been disproven either by showing how many trucks get in, more than the UN numbers, actually having to put a drone over a parking lot of all of their trucks sitting there letting food waste and refusing to move. And then, by the way, their agents, you know, the UN folks, who are all sort of wanting to keep the pressure on Israel, planted a story several weeks ago that Reuters took, CNN took, had a little bit of coverage in New York Times. They did a similar play with the Israeli side, saying that USAID Agency for International Development, which, yes, still technically exists under the State Department, had done an inspector general report and had disproven and briefed to many policymakers that in fact, Hamas doesn't divert the aid. If aid's not getting to the people the way that statistics show, it's because of Israel, it's not because of Hamas. This is why GHF has failed. And so that was a massive story that sort of kicked off the narrative, the. The messaging arc of the last few weeks into famine declaration. And I think it was really intended to be contributing to the starvation narrative. Well, the Free Press reported a couple weeks ago, they actually talked to the officials involved. They found the documents. That's not what the USAID investigation found at all. Completely false. They, in fact, simply couldn't establish the evidence to prove where Hamas was diverting the aid at all times. They didn't say Hamas doesn't divert the aid. In fact, we know Hamas diverts the aid. We've seen the pictures. We know that is happening. Okay, that was an untrue story. We have a whistleblower that has come forward to the inspector general at USAID in the last couple of weeks. You can find an exclusive report and Fox News. This has shaken the earth beneath the U.N. there is a reason why Cindy McCain, the late Senator John McCain's former wife, who heads the World Food Program and in my view has become a real disinformation partner with Hamas. Very sadly and tragically, there's a reason why she is in Israel for the first time since October 7th. Right now. The reason is she is under a massive pressure from the US Government. The US Taxpayer financed organization that she leads is now standing accused by a very credible aid organization and aid worker witnesses that her people in Gaza have sat in rooms with the IDF and with the UN and when offered repeatedly, security coordination. What do you need? What can we provide? How can we ensure that crowds don't come and take your food off of trucks? How can we help you make sure that you get safely to aid distribution? The World Food Program crosses its arm and says we are not prepared to discuss that with you today. Okay, this is under investigation. And this whistleblower alleges that having surveyed it all and talked to all other sources, he also believes in this sort of coming from New York Secretary General view that this is all a scheme to collapse the ghf, not allow food aid distribution to work separate from GHF and put pressure on a famine narrative. And by the way, we have other things. Michael Oren, okay, you could see Michael Oren, Foreign Ambassador. He's pointing to the fact that the truckers union historically has been controlled by Hamas and Gaza. You can look that up. They've won the elections for truckers union in the past. Who are the drivers that the UN might be putting in their trucks? Who's selecting them? Who do they report to? Or who are they under duress from? Okay, another little factoid here. So there's all of these pieces that put together and it's horrific, okay, because you're playing with people's lives. You're playing with the hostages lives. You're playing with an entire war that's going out, creating an entire world turning on Israel, making Israel the villain, when this terrorist organization is the one that keeps hostages, keeps fighting, keeps trying to control aid distribution to the people. And you're doing it to save your business model and to save unrwa. I call it the UN Hunger Games. People can be offended by that. It's what I call it. I think it's a scandal. I think it's as big as oil.

[B]

For food, which was the scandal between the UN and Iraq after the first Gulf War through the second Gulf War. Okay, let me hit you with two last questions, Rich, before we wrap the first is the availability of data. And I think one issue that Israel keeps running into is that since data isn't collected by its own bodies and it's not collected by credible reporters, Hamas or Hamas affiliated survey bodies step into the vacuum with corrupt data, some of which you're citing here. And Israel doesn't have data. So how do you fight bad data with no data?

[A]

This is a critical question, okay? I sort of wake up every day asking myself and people, who is the Gaza Ministry of Health? Where are they? Who are these guys? What office are they sitting in? Where's the server? How is it possible after almost two years, that either the United States, Israel, some, you know, whatever, has not taken control of at least the backend IT system to monitor all of this, to validate some of this, to understand what is happening? There's complications in that because it's in the hospitals and you're not going to go into the hospital. Israel doesn't want to take control of the actual hospital system. Right. That could be part of the problem here. But yes, the conveyor belt is Hamas's health ministry. Still to this day, it is lunacy. And there needs to be some sort of alternative data collection program, some sort of alternative way of assessing some of these things. If GHF is able to do certain assessments at its sites, if it can expand to certain outpatient sites where you have reliable measurements going on, perhaps that report in to the US, to the Israelis, that we know is free of Hamas, at least we will have factual information and data to some extent. Even though there's an argument that you're not really getting an accurate sample size of just people who come to outpatient clinics, they're already sick. You're trying to extrapolate statistical data of what's happening in that apartment building over there that you can't get to, that you're not going to, you're not knocking on the door of. You're in a war. In the end, one of the colossal failures of the press corps is to accept Gaza Ministry of Health information as fact and never to say, we can't verify this, it's controlled by a terrorist organization. We can't. The minute you say, oh, but we'll at least put a comma connected or controlled by Hamas. You know, that's what an editor will say. Well, we're being fair. We've at least said ministry of Health controlled by Hamas. Come on, we know what's going on here, okay?

[B]

If we want to assume that the UN is operating in good faith here, and again, I don't think they are, but if you wanted to, I just want to, like, put this out there because I've heard from international aid experts that, including Israeli international aid experts who say that the way the UN or other NGOs do aid distribution in a war zone is they don't distinguish between bad actors that are participants parties to the war, in this case Hamas. They don't sit there saying, look, we can't deal with them or we won't deal with them. Our job is to distribute food. Everyone get out of the way. Hamas, get out of the way. Israel, get out of the way. We got to do what we got to do. And as long as you don't give us a hard time, and as long as you're not an obstacle, we'll sort of work with you, kind of work around you, but we're not going to be hostile to you. Again, I'm not defending that approach, but I've heard this.

[A]

That does. The doctrine of neutrality. That's correct.

[B]

Total neutrality. Right. And so if you assume that these international bodies are acting good faith and they just want to be technocratic experts in the neutral distribution of aid in which they don't take sides in a war and their job is just to feed as many people as possible, then they could argue that Israel's approach is an approach they can't work with. Because Israel is saying, we are not neutral. We are a party. And we are a party that is trying to strike a balance between making sure that Palestinian civilians don't, you know, aren't starving and not strengthening the enemy they're fighting, which is Hamas. And if you just allow this UN body to roam around Gaza doing it the way it's always been doing, they may or may not be feeding Gazans, who knows? But one thing they are doing is strengthening Hamas, even if you're not doing it in bad faith, even if you're not trying to strengthen Hamas, even if you're not trying to hurt Israel. Again, all the obvious caveats, because I think they are trying to do those things. But let's just assume that you're not, by virtue of you doing it the way you're doing it, the way Hamas manipulates you, you are strengthening Hamas. And that is unacceptable to us, Israel. So we are forced to find another way to do this. And that is the core disagreement between Israel, slash the US and those actors in the humanitarian aid ecosystem that are operating in good faith. Would you agree with that?

[A]

I mean, I don't buy that narrative. No. I think it's actually fundamentally different than that because there is an actual sympathy on the Hamas side. There is not neutrality.

[B]

Sympathy for Hamas.

[A]

Yes, for that narrative, for that side, and viewing Israel as the bad actor. If you weigh public statements, if you weigh demands, if you weigh reports of the United nations, all the content that is put forward, I agree with you.

[B]

What I'm simply saying is if a, the NGO affiliated with the UN came to Israel and said, we're not sympathetic to Hamas, we're not hostile to Israel, if one came forward and said that, Israel would still have to say to that body, I hear you. I don't think you are actively trying to hurt us. You're saying you're not actively trying to hurt us, but it's still a problem because you're still, in the spirit of neutrality, are willing to work with Hamas and we cannot have anybody work with Hamas.

[A]

Well, that's absolutely true. Now, let me take you to Afghanistan, right? And there's an interesting policy path in here which reminds us that the UN doesn't always do what they're saying they do. Right now in Gaza, there are many, many, many times throughout history where they will either ask UN peacekeepers to come in and be the armed force to help aid get through around armed actors who are interfering with aid, or in some cases they even let the U.S. military. And that happened with ISAF in Afghanistan. The Taliban would be raiding aid convoys and they needed to get aid to the people and they would cooperate and allow that. Now the Taliban and Al Qaeda are terrorist organizations for the United Nations. Post nine, eleven, certainly. And so you do have a different policy for the United nations there where, okay, it's not neutral to work with the Taliban. At the time when we were delivering aid in like that, there was this understanding that, okay, we can't allow convoys to be raided by the Taliban. That's happened in other areas as well. And so there is a question here. Why has the United States never put forward a resolution at the Security Council to declare Hamas a terrorist organization and add them to the UN sanctions list since October 7th or before that. That's crazy to me. Let the Russians and Chinese veto that. I would love to see that. What a great first thing for Mike Waltz to do when he's confirmed as UN Ambassador. We should do it today, even before he gets there. Now, I don't understand that. Oh, by the way, if I'm right, if our theory is right, this is all about waiting for UNRWA to come back. And by the way, they keep raising tons of Money at unrwa. They're there. They're ready. You need to kill that organization off for good in Gaza. How do you do that? You designate the organization as a terrorist group. You put terrorism sanctions to the United States on it. Nobody can contribute a dime to it unless we say so in certain circumstances and in certain areas. You figure out what the timelines are and you say, they're dead, they're on the sanctions list. Get over it, move on. And then you say to Cindy McCain, this is our taxpayer money going into WFP. This is supposed to be the US led flagship aid organization. Either you're going to get on a US Policy playbook here that does not align with Hamas, that puts more aid into ghf, that makes your aid gets to the people that accept security coordination to get your trucks through, that makes sure the truck drivers aren't Hamas. Nix. Or we're gonna do something different with WFP going forward. We're gonna go shopping for a new executive director. That's something else we need to do very quickly.

[B]

Well, that's a very prescriptive note to end on. I like that. We're coming up with a to do list.

[A]

And of course, Dan, you know, the White House is having a sit down. The president's meeting with Steve Wyckoff, they're having a strategy session. Everything I just said could be, who knows, out the window in 24 hours. But in the world that I see in all the sources and everything I saw being inside everything I see now, really taking a dive in back into this portfolio, talking to every source, been up, you know, throughout the various bodily cavities of UNRA for many, many years in Gaza and elsewhere and the other organizations and seeing how they divert, how they can abuse. This is what I believe is going on.

[B]

All right, Rich, thank you for this. Welcome back to the podcast and I look forward to having you back on soon.

[A]

I.

[B]

We're going to need some more of these primers. And this was a very important explainer on an extremely, if not the most central part of this story that's gotten completely out of control. So thank you for providing a tutorial here for us.

[A]

My phone's back on. Call me back.

[B]

All right, there we go. This is it for our regular call me back episode. For those of you listening on the members Only inside Call Me Back feed, I'm about to answer some pretty interesting and provocative listener questions. We will discuss Israel's progress, performance in the information war, how Gaza will be rebuilt, and more. If you are not yet subscribed to Inside. Call Me Back. You can do so using the link in the show notes or by going to arc media.org that's ark media.org to sign up. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Ilan Benatar. Arc Media's executive producer is Adam James Levin Aretti. Sound and video editing by Martin Huergo and Marian Khalis Burgos. Our director of operations, Maya Rockoff. Research by Gabe Silverstein. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Sienna SA.