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- [00:00]
John Fetterman
I got my graduate degree at Harvard. And then immediately, the shocking the day after the place, just like you had about 30 different groups and they had this letter and essentially it's like, well, Israel deserved this. And that thing like, wow, that's crazy, that kind of response. I'm like, some people in my party were calling for a ceasefire and all that stuff. I'm like, after what? After what? That's outrageous. I'm like, no, of course not. For me, I committed to. I'm willing to be the last man standing in my party that's ever going to be, with no conditions till the end, until Hamas is effectively neutralized.
- [00:53]
Dan Senor
It's 2:30pm on Monday, February 24, here in Washington, D.C. it is 9:30pm on Monday, February 24, in Israel. For much of his political career, Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman was a darling or champion of the left. Senator Fetterman, in his traditional sweatsuit, hoodie and shorts, became an instant icon of the Democratic Party and a stalwart of its resistance in some respects to President Trump's first term. All of that seems to have changed, or a lot of it. On the day that changed much of our lives and the world in which we once lived. October 7, 2023. Senator Fetterman has been one of the staunchest supporters of Israel in its defensive war against Hamas. In fact, he keeps posters of the Israeli hostages in his office since the earliest days of the war. Senator Fetterman, who is not Jewish, has been more supportive of Israel over the past 16 months than many of his Jewish colleagues on Capitol Hill. He has and continues to pay a price for his position on Israel, but he has not backed down. In fact, he has doubled down on his support for Israel, often criticizing his own party for using the kind of rhetoric and taking the kinds of political stances that he is called, and I quote here, toxic to voters. And so we were very excited to find out that Senator Fetterman was open to coming on. Call Me Back to discuss all of this. With us today from a studio in Washington, D.C. is Senator Fetterman, the former mayor of Braddock, Pennsylvania, just outside Pittsburgh from 2006 to 2019. Senator Fetterman served as Lieutenant Governor of Pennsylvania from 2019 to 2023. During that time, while running for the US Senate in 2022, he overcame a stroke and at the same time flipped a Republican held Senate seat for the Democrats. Senator Fetterman, welcome to the Call Me Back podcast. Thanks for doing this.
- [03:11]
John Fetterman
Hey, thank you for having me here.
- [03:14]
Dan Senor
We have a global audience and I'VE gotten to know you, and I think many of our listeners have gotten to know you or followed you. But we also have an audience, as I said, around the world, who don't know much about you other than what they've learned about you since October 7th. So we're going to get to October 7th, but I want to start at the beginning, so to speak. Can you talk a little bit about where you grew up and the kind of environment you grew up in and just get a sense of what shaped you?
- [03:42]
John Fetterman
Yeah, well, because of that kind of an audience, I would describe it as like, I'm a Pennsylvania guy and I was technically born in Reading, Pennsylvania, which is like an industrial city in the eastern part of Pennsylvania. And now probably that's fairly notable now because Taylor Swift and I were born in the same hospital and all of my family was from Berks county, which that's part of a very conservative part of Pennsyl, always has been and still is. And then I moved to York county, which is kind of south central Pennsylvania, another kind of a conservative part. And my family was all Republicans, to my knowledge. I think I'm essentially the only Democrat in my family. So I grew up and that was pretty regular to be around people and have some kinds of political views. And I never saw them as like the enemy or abhorrent or those kinds of things. People all just got along and we never had those big arguments on like Thanksgiving kind of things. So for me, I try to explain to people, especially during in elections, the three cycles that I've been in in Pennsylvania, how the intensity and the appeal that Trump has trying to explain and how that has landed with Republicans for some people that live and GRE in like deep blue kinds of things, might think that's weird. I can't explain that. Or I'm not really sure if that's true. And I'm like, it absolutely is. And if anything, you're probably wrong if you think if you're underestimating that kinds of intensity. I came up in that same cycle as Trump did. My first statewide race was in 2015, 16. And I ran for the Senate. And of course I didn't win, but I did.
- [05:41]
Dan Senor
So you ran in the Democratic primary, lost in the primary.
- [05:43]
John Fetterman
Yeah, I did. But the person that I was running against, Larry, largely, I always felt and believed that she was never going to be able to carry Pennsylvania. And it turns out she didn't. But I tried to warn and I became a surrogate for the Clinton campaign in western Pennsylvania, and I tried to warn I'm like, hey, Trump has connected in a way, and everybody assumed that it was going to be easy peasy. And then after that, that infamous grabbing the. And all that, that's supposed to be the end of him for sure. And I'm like. And I was actually in. I was in the audience for that first debate. And very clearly, by any kind of metrics, Clinton won. But that really didn't matter because he had that kind of a connection and that kind of intensity, and that's why he carried Pennsylvania. And I've been warning for those three cycles. So, like, growing up through a lot of that and witnessing and seeing it day in and day out, trying to kind of like a translation to a lot of blue audiences why that happened.
- [06:55]
Dan Senor
When you were growing up, who were the public figures you admired, who you looked up to, who you, as you would later choose a career in public service, thought to model yourself after?
- [07:05]
John Fetterman
I mean, for me personally, it's always been about my father, too, who's a Republican. Oh, yeah, the lifelong, lifelong. The running joke during the campaign, I'd say, I'm going to be the first Democrat that my parents are ever gonna vote for. And I'm like, I hope, I hope at least kind of thing. So for me, and my life started, I was an unplanned and in some sense, kind of an unwanted kind of pregnancy. And they were just a teenager. Teenagers. 19. And then my parents decided to get married. And after 55 years, actually, they just had their 56. They're still together. So he worked at a grocery store and helped get his college degree. And we started out in a very, very kind of like a lower rung. And that's how things evolved.
- [08:00]
Dan Senor
At what point did you start to think about career commitment to public service, to politics, to elected office?
- [08:09]
John Fetterman
I got lucky. My life could have turned into a different direction, but that really kind of changed. I was finishing up, coming up on that. That would have been 32 years ago, business school. And my. My best friend at the time was killed in a car accident on his way home to my house. And that really kind of rocked my world there. And for the first time, I had that kind of death where I'm like this idea that you could be living your last 15 minutes of your life and had no idea that was coming in. And then that really, I, I just, it just. I started to reflect on what I won. So I joined Big Brothers, Big Sisters, and I was paired with a young boy. He was an AIDS orphan. Well, his father had died from aids and his Mother was in full blown aids and that's when I met her. And that was in 1994. So that was a death sentence. And I'm embarrassed in retrospect to even almost wondering when I first met her, I mean, she was skeletal. And if you ever remember those Benetton ads, those kind of shocking ones, that's exactly what that was. And then I realized I'm like, my God, how can two people have such divergent kinds of. I was born into a situation and I ended up. And I was able to get education and I had that kind of security. And he, before his ninth birthday, both of his parents died from aids. And that really after those kinds of back to back, and I decided I wanted to go into my life maybe, hey, if I could make things a little better, a little different, rather than just pursuing more of a traditional path.
- [09:55]
Dan Senor
Was it ever a question for you when you were growing up or when you were choosing a career in public service, what political party you would join?
- [10:03]
John Fetterman
Actually, it really wasn't a thing. And I never fully expected I'd end up in politics, honestly. In fact, at first I became more of what I would describe as almost a social worker. And then I started a small program helping young people get their GED and getting their first job, even something simple like a driving license. People can't really realize some of those very kind of barriers. For some people, they grew up in opportunities that they liked that I had. And then in, wow, that's crazy. 20 years ago, literally, I decided, I'm like, hey, maybe if I could run for mayor. And that was kind of like, kind of strange that a young white guy in a overwhelmingly black community running for mayor, that I was able to kind of win by one vote, just one vote. And that was the start of my political career just because of that one vote. So it might be a cliche to say that, but it's true that every vote does matter because without one fewer vote, and I wouldn't be in this room right now today having that conversation.
- [11:09]
Dan Senor
In Braddock, Pennsylvania, what is it like a population of 1700 people?
- [11:12]
John Fetterman
Yeah, well, originally it was like a powerhouse for of people might be following the U.S. steel drama. Well, that's where Carnegie started his whole empire. And in my home, it's in a former abandoned car dealership. It's directly across the street from the plant. That's where it started. And I'd like to remind people that was part of, at the time of the original Silicon Valley and wealth and power and the kind of industrial mighty that Remade our entire society here. And then after all of that, that massive kinds of industrialization and suburbanizing and a lot of white flight, that whole issues. And it tore it apart and it lost 90% of its population. It went from an over 20,000 town. It had the kind of urban density similar to Brooklyn. And now it was loft with about 2,500 people. When I ran for mayor. So it's a small mayor one. And that was never a traditional path to higher office. And I never expect that it was for me, it was just, I was a social worker just helping people get their GED and those things.
- [12:27]
Dan Senor
So I want to fast forward to you're running for lieutenant governor in 2018. You're the Democratic nominee. It's your second run for statewide office. But now you've won the nomination. You've won the Democratic primary. And I'll remind our listeners and viewers, it was the same year that the mass killing at the Tree of Life synagogue in the Pittsburgh area in Squirrel Hill took place. The largest violent anti Semitic attack, I think, in American history.
- [13:00]
John Fetterman
Shocking.
- [13:01]
Dan Senor
11 people killed.
- [13:02]
John Fetterman
Oh, well, let me describe the circumstances. I was towards the end of the campaign and I was running with Tom Wolf, who's the governor. Yeah. Who is the lieutenant governor?
- [13:15]
Dan Senor
Democratic governor.
- [13:15]
John Fetterman
Yeah, the governor. And friends called me and they live really across the street of the Tree of Life. And they're like, hey, there's like a mass shooting and two people, someone are shooting and gunning down people in the synagogue. And the first thing I did was I called Jeff Bartos.
- [13:34]
Dan Senor
Okay, so let's spend a minute on. So Jeff Bardos, who's a friend of mine, who was the Republican nominee for governor. Exactly. You're running head to head against Jeff Bardos in a competitive race. That's correct. Yeah. And the Tree of Life shooting happens and he's one of, if not the first person you call, in addition to being the Republican nominee, he's a proud member of the Jewish community.
- [13:55]
John Fetterman
Yeah. And I said, jeff, I'm sorry, and maybe you're not aware, but it seems that there is a mass shooting situation and they are targeting Jews and they are mowing people down in a prominent synagogue in Squirrel Hill. And Squirrel Hill is the center of the Jewish community in Pittsburgh. I mean, it's incredibly vibrant. And I'm like, look, I'm not campaigning and I'm suspending my campaign. I'm not doing anything. I'm just getting back. And I did. And then it's almost four and a half hour drive. And then I attended that candlelight vigil there in the middle of Squirrel Hill. And this idea that somebody could show up with a rifle and start mowing people down, elderly people in the house of their worship. So that was really stark. And then that was kind of like the start of a real friendship with Jeff Bartos. And even though. So technically we're running against each other and we're in a different party, but I said to him, like, jeff, I'm so sorry for your community. I mean, I'm not a member of that community, so I can't imagine what that really feels like. But for me, that just was. It rocked my world. And that's kind of how it was. Start of that.
- [15:04]
Dan Senor
Was that the first time that the Jewish community, the threats against the Jewish community first kind of became obvious to you or got on your radar where.
- [15:13]
John Fetterman
You'Re like, well, I mean, of course I never spoke about antisemitism and those things because I'm like, that would be. If anything, that would be disrespectful. And I can't speak to that experience because I haven't lived that. But, I mean, I was aware of it and I've seen when it might happen, but it just was brought front and center. And then the whole thing got blown apart after 10, 7. And then when I was running for the second time, I ran for the Senate, I did 2022. Yeah, well, technically this would have been in 21. And I did an interview and I said, look, now I really have the kind of traditional kinds of Democratic opinions on the situation with Israel and Gaza and things. But I said, but I still say, when the shit hits the fan, I'm going to go in on Israel. I'm very clear.
- [16:06]
Dan Senor
Okay, so I want to get to October 7th in a moment. Before I do, I do want to talk about your run for the Senate in 2022, because I think most people following your race, most political journalists would have categorized you as like a liberal progressive type. I mean, whether you go by those terms or not, that's how you were characterized. So that was notable. Just your Senate run and how you ran. It was also quite noteworthy because you suffered a stroke.
- [16:36]
John Fetterman
Yeah, I did, yeah.
- [16:36]
Dan Senor
During your Senate run. So can you talk a little bit about that? And maybe you have this device here. I think it's important for our listeners and viewers to know not only did you suffer the stroke, but you still use this device that helps you.
- [16:50]
John Fetterman
So just.
- [16:50]
Dan Senor
Can you talk about what you went through in 2022 and how you cope now as a senator?
- [16:55]
John Fetterman
Yeah, sure. Let me unpack some of that. I really ran in that second cycle. I'm like, really? I haven't stopped. Been a progressive. A lot of the kind of the extreme things that emerged over it. And I'm like, hey, I really kind of view myself as more of like a traditional kind of Democrat. And now coming up, that would be three years ago in May that I had a stroke. And that was for the second time in my life where I was confronted with this idea. I had no time when I woke up that morning that I might. That I have 15 minutes left that I might live. And then when it hit, I wasn't even aware at that time, my wife pointed out, hey, you're having a stroke. And. And I denied. I'm like, no, I'm fine. Because I wanted to head to a campaign event in Lancaster. And they're like, no, no. They rushed me to the hospital. But I tried to maintain them like, I'm fine. I got to get there. And that stroke nearly took my life. And I'm so grateful at that time because I made an incredible kind of recovery. And the one lingering issue from that was sometimes processing language. When I'm doing very kind of precise conversations like this, I use. This is just captioning. And I wouldn't really, respectfully, I wouldn't describe it as a device, but this is just kind of like an Android bipod.
- [18:22]
Elon Benatar
It's an iPad. It's literally an iPad for those who are listening.
- [18:25]
John Fetterman
100 bucks thing. And it has the thing of captioning.
- [18:27]
Dan Senor
It's just transcribing for you what we're talking about. And so you can read it while you're listening.
- [18:32]
John Fetterman
Exactly. So usually conversationally and things like I can process and hear things, so I can'ti wouldn't describe myself as deaf, but in some way it's some lingering issues of processing language and very more kinds of precise situations like this. I use captioning to make sure I'm able to respond it in a way no different than I'm doing right now.
- [18:53]
Dan Senor
And then you're in the Senate and then the Senate physician, I think diagnosed you as an after effect of the stroke with depression.
- [19:03]
John Fetterman
Well, yeah, that was the biggest race in that cycle and unlimited money and just unloaded in a way. I would describe that as the blowtorch just torn apart. Torn apart. And then I did the really dumb mistake of after I won, I did a post mortem, I looked online some of this stuff and it wasn't like the thing said, it was just the volume and Just where's this mass kind of venom? And like for a stranger, I've never done anything wrong. That was part of it. And at that point and that's depression. And I realized and I knew that I need help because. And that's why I've been having that public conversation about depression. I reached a point where I have to be really more honest about self harm because I thought, well of course depression is probably not going to be a big political winner. But then if I really have to be honest, it's like having that as well too because there is a lot of people that might be in that way. And over the course of the election I lost two of my friends after the depression and one had a stroke too, another one had a heart attack and they both had young children and it was overwhelming to me and it's not because they failed or I was stronger and I didn't succumb, but I just was able to find or got the appropriate help, whatever. And I think at that point I was really the first elected official to ever describe self harm. And then Joe Biden actually mentioned that in a conversation that he had a point in his life too, he considered that. So it's important to have that conversation because I want people, anyone that listens, hey, whatever your journey will be, but I promise you, you have to promise just I keep it simple because I'm not a professional in that way. But I'm saying just stay in that game, stay in the game because you will get better. Because two years later that's absolutely the truth. So that's been part of the journey and if it's not something I would have chosen, but since that happened I paying it forward that I survived and I was able to recover. And I just beg people like look, if you allow those kinds of conversations to continue with yourself with depression and that becomes very dangerous and then might end in a way that you can't come back from.
- [21:43]
Dan Senor
Let's now Fast forward to October 7th and I often ask many of our first time guests a question I will ask you which is do you remember where you were as you were learning about the catastrophe of October 7th?
- [21:59]
John Fetterman
Yeah. No.
- [22:00]
Dan Senor
What was going on?
- [22:01]
John Fetterman
I started getting these calls and hearing all this violence and the depravity and the things that were emerging from it. I mean anyone that's seen that video?
- [22:12]
Dan Senor
You mean the 47 minute video? Have you seen it?
- [22:14]
John Fetterman
Oh yeah, no, of course. And other things that were at the time might have been considered classified at the time. But my point and the fact that they filmed this and some of the transcriptions where some of those intercepted kinds of conversations and they're cheering it and they're calling up their family like, hey, look, we just killed three Jews or whatever. And what they've done. And just the kinds of, just the barbarism and the cruelty. And that was not just like, that wasn't terrorism. That was really, for me, I described that as a war on civilization. And that really kind of just shifted immediately for me. And that's like, hey, I'm going to be a committed voice for Israel and the Jewish community. Because after that, things aren't ever going to be the same. And for the largest kinds of an attack, and how personal and vicious that was since the Holocaust, for me, it's like, what if that was? What if they did that to my family? You know, like, if you had people barging into my home and raped my daughter and my wife and shot them in their heads or tortured it, or they made my children watch these kinds, like the kinds of, like, where does that come from? Where does that kinds of evil and depravity come from? And it's like, what if that was me? And I'm like, I would never negotiate with that kinds of evil and I would never want that for anyone else. And now at that point, you can never allow that kinds of a force and that kinds of evil survive. And absolutely, I made that statement, like, whatever they need, military, financial or intelligent wise, I'm always going to support that and vote for those things.
- [24:09]
Dan Senor
Okay, but that position that you just articulated just now, meaning you. And your reaction was unconditional support for Israel?
- [24:17]
John Fetterman
Oh, yeah, absolutely unconditional.
- [24:20]
Dan Senor
That position was not shared by some, not all, but some in your Democratic Party. And there was this progressive group, the Squad, whatever you want to call them, who in these.
- [24:31]
John Fetterman
Some people almost immediately, within the first couple of weeks. Well, and also, let me just speak to Ed. I mean, I got my graduate degree at Harvard. And then immediately, like the shocking. It was like the day after, you know the place, just like you had about 30 different groups and they had this letter and essentially it's like, well, Israel deserved this and that thing. Like, wow, that's crazy. That kinds of response. I'm like, oh, my God. And some people in my party were calling for a ceasefire and all that stuff. I'm like, after what? After what? That's outrageous. I'm like, no, of course not, of course not. And then for me, I committed to, like, I'm willing to be like the last man standing in My party that's ever going to be. With no conditions till the end, until Hamas is effectively neutralized. It was pretty kind of clear that the Democratic Party felt like they had to criticize or react in that. And for me, I guess some people decided, like, let's go after Netanyahu or the leader. And I'm like, absolutely, I'm never going to sign on for that. This is the Democratic leader of our ally. And now if you're going to criticize or go after any side, it should be against Hamas, whether you might think someone is a bad person or a terrible leader, whatever that is. Well, he is the leader that Israel decided on, and that's our ally. And when you consider what the alternative is in the war, Adam, like, there's absolutely. I'm ever going to go attack that Democratic leader of our ally in the middle of an existential war.
- [26:10]
Dan Senor
You were very outspoken. There was a vote. I can't remember the exact date, but there was a vote on funding, continued funding for various parts of Israel's defenses. There's funding for Iron Dome.
- [26:21]
John Fetterman
Yeah, Iron Dome. We actually, members of my party, voting against Iron Dome and those things like that whole BDS and the Iron Dome and all those kinds of voting. I'm like, what is wrong with you? These are defensive. And going after that, it's like. And that was like that emerging paradox where the people of the most progressive elements of my party, the only nation in that region that are projecting and those are the kinds of values. That's Israel. And it's like such a paradox. That's the kind of places that have the values that you espouse, and you live in our nation.
- [26:58]
Dan Senor
Were you ever pressured by leaders of the Democratic Party to just quiet down? You were very outspoken early on. I remember seeing you at the big, big demonstration on the Mall, you know, a month so after October 7, where you were standing there with the Israeli flag wrapped around you. It was quite moving, I must say. Hundreds of thousands of people, mostly Jews, and there you were standing there with the Israeli flag, very outspoken, very critical of critics of Israel, including critical of Democratic critics of Israel. Did anyone ever tell you, hey, Senator, pipe down.
- [27:34]
John Fetterman
Not expressly sitting down and say, but I've had protesters start showing up immediately at my office and then inevitably at my home. And I've said, look, I'm sorry, I realize I'm going to be an outlier. And I refuse to pander to that. I understand there's an election happening, and they try to run between the raindrops and Try to have it both ways. I'm like, I'm never going to pander to that dearborn kinds of audience. And if you are willing to vote for the other side, well, you're probably not going to enjoy that outcome. And then turns out that happened. So for me it's not about the election, it's about what's the right side. And I'm going to follow Israel through that. And I have disagreed publicly. Even the president at that time, I never supported this idea of holding back on the largest munitions of the 2000 pound bombs and those things. It's like whatever they need to eradicate Hamas and people forget or they try to ignore that this is and the misery and the civilian death was designed by Hamas. They've embedded themselves and they hide in the schools or the hospitals and I will never forget. And this was shortly after at that hospital and they claimed that a rocket hit and they all announced that 500 people were killed and that was an Israeli rocket. And Israel intercepted the radio where it was one of their own rockets. And I'm there's no way that was going to kill 500 people. That's impossible.
- [29:15]
Dan Senor
Meaning it was the Palestinian Islamic Jihad's rocket.
- [29:19]
John Fetterman
Exactly, that's the point. And it's like people started attacking Israel and they said that is not us, that was them. It's 1,000 people metaphorically reacted, but only one just was like, by the way, that wasn't true. And that was part of the recurring things that there was going to be a famine and they have cheapened words in our language. One of them is genocide. Genocide. Describing that Israel was engaging in genocide, I'm like, that is factually it's not true. But if you really are engaging in a genocide, why are you telling people you gotta evacuate? Here's where I'm gonna strike. How many societies that are engaging in a genocide are facilitating vaccination programs for their children? Israel was forced conduct a war through these civilians and also had to make sure that they got the kinds of food and other kinds of support through this, through constant criticism for what they've done and things that happened. Just whatever you describe that as blood libel, whatever. Just the kinds of lies that just got repeated in the media and it's just not true. And I've said this publicly, you are working against peace and teaching Hamas knowing that hey, this kinds of messaging on social media has and they use those kinds of words like colonizing or this. Well, there must be an oppressor and there must be the oppressed and created Those very kinds of false constructs.
- [31:05]
Dan Senor
You're saying all these things, and you were saying these things as events were unfolding. There were leaders of your own party that were pressuring you. You even had members of your own Senate staff who, according to public reports, resigned over the position you had taken. At any point, I'm just trying to get a sense, because at some point, does it start to hurt? These are people who are working for you. These are people who signed up to work for you and they felt so strongly that you were way out there on this issue. By the way, most Americans probably don't think you're way out there. They think your position is very reasonable. But I'm just saying, did at some point any of this give you pause?
- [31:47]
John Fetterman
Well, for me it came from a very simple commitment. It's like Israel and the Jewish community deserves at least one consistent voice through this, at least from the Democratic Party. But people forget that the Jewish community is largely a democratic part of our base. And now how can you have that party turn around, turn their back? But especially from the moral clarity. For me, when people ask me that question, I'm like, for me it was always easy because it's always been that moral clarity. Can you just imagine if Israel was pushed into a ceasefire in last May or June and think, can you imagine if people like Sinwar and Hamas would still be largely functional? And Hezbollah was described, all the so called experts described that as like they were kind of the ultimate badass. Think of the things that they did. And it was magnificent that Israel finally called bullshit on those kinds of organizations. And then after the beepers, and I'm like, I respond by saying, I'm like, oh, I love it. People would say, are you sure? Really? Whatever. I'm like, oh yeah, I love it 100%. Because for me that's the ultimate micro targeting. If you want to criticize Israel having to use those kinds of munitions. The only people that have beepers, well, they're terrorists. And the ones that, it's like if you have a beeper and that goes boom and you get taken out, that is in my description, that's the most effective way to get in their head and also to neutralize some of their people in ways that minimizes all the collateral damage as well too. And now Hezbollah was exposed as really kind of largely a paper tiger. And I support, I also loved for them systematically eliminating the leadership.
- [33:52]
Dan Senor
Can you talk? In January of 24, you had pressure all this time from October to through now you get pressure from the Democratic Party. You have staff members that resign because of your positions on this issue. And In January of 24, you had this protest. They showed up at your home right in Bradley. And can you describe that scene and how you responded?
- [34:16]
John Fetterman
Yeah, well, they could see it online and there was probably maybe 50 to 75 people and they were yelling and screaming, genocide, genocide, genocide. Our 10 year old was home at the time, and I live in a building where I was able to get up on the roof and I was kind of listening to it and I was waiting until it really got it ugly and whatever. And then I just held up the Israeli flag. And to me, I don't know why that's controversial, to just be like, hey, it's just the Israeli flag. But some people might have saw that as provocative or aggression. It's like, no, that's just saying you've made your statement, you have these kinds of things. That's my statement. I'm like, hey, I'm here for standing with Israel. I don't know why I don't show up at your house with flags and start yelling and accusing you of things. Things. But you have done that. You've made your statement, I'm making mine. And that's part of that ongoing dialogue where like, look, the death of innocent Palestinians and children, I mean, that's absolutely a tragedy. But I think perhaps the difference between you and I are, is that you might blame those things on Israel. But for me, I blame Hamas and I blame Iran. And that's kind of like a fundamental difference where, why can you deny the responsibility with the people that are doing these terrible things and the kind of nations that are financing all of it.
- [35:49]
Dan Senor
Do you ever try to just explain to. I mean, I don't know how much you can actually have a dialogue with these protesters, but colleagues of yours, friends on the left, it's hard to.
- [35:58]
John Fetterman
It's hard to, because it's immediately like, it's yelling and they show up and then there's always the phone. They start filming it. And they tried everything to get on these silly videos to go viral just for video online.
- [36:13]
Dan Senor
But many of these activists claim to support women's rights, gay rights, freedom of religion. If you actually want to be on the side of these liberal values, you should be for Israel.
- [36:23]
John Fetterman
I agree. We've all seen those signs where it's like, queers for Palestine. Can you just imagine? Yeah, I agree. It's almost like something out of like a Portlandia that show kind of a thing. And it's like if you were a member of that community and you show up in Gaza or in some of those nations, they're going to give you a choice. It's like you can pick the building that we're going to throw you on the top of. And then after I visited Israel, you could witness it that people that were gay, they could walk around and they could be free and just hold hands and they could be affectionate with members of the same sex. It's like that's where the values that you claim to really live by. And it's like that's where it's actually in Israel. And that's what's part of why I think Israel is miraculous in the middle of all of it. They produce the kind of a society that has the values that people, especially of the Democratic Party, we would define that as the most kind of important things.
- [37:26]
Dan Senor
Many have looked at you since the election of 2024 as potentially a model for how Democrats could reemerge and appeal to the center of the political spectrum.
- [37:40]
John Fetterman
There's some things that I think transcends party. And for me, a situation like what happened after 10, seven, anyone that has studied history, if you happen again and again and again nations and organizations attack Israel, they lose and then they lose more freedom, they lose lower quality of their lives and more land. And it's like, just when can you decide, understand, stop attacking Israel and build your own nation rather than trying to destroy theirs. And now I've done events in that election you referenced with Bill Clinton and now remember what they were offered, meaning.
- [38:22]
Dan Senor
What they were offered in 2000 when President Clinton was president and the Israeli government and the leader of the Palestinians, Yasser Arafat, went to Camp David and.
- [38:31]
John Fetterman
They were offered a Palestinian state, 96%, and you can pick which 4% you get the capital of East Jerusalem and all this. And they're like, no, no, no, no. And now it's like you have a pension if you end up in prison or killed while we were arrested or killed killing Jews and creating that kind of terror and trying to pretend that this is not the same, this is not the same.
- [39:02]
Dan Senor
You know, there are many people who, as I said, they look at you as potentially a model of how the Democrats could re emerge. And at the same time, the issues we're talking about today right now are treated as, quote, unquote, a issue of concern to the Jewish community. And I think something you've pointed out to me in a previous conversation we've had where you said you'll take your position, position on Israel and you'll let Your opponents and critics take their position on Israel and you say, then let's both go debate it in the center of Scranton, Pennsylvania, which is, let's just say, not a big Jewish community. You'll go in the heart of Scranton, Pennsylvania, we'll stand in the middle and we'll debate and we'll see where regular voters from Scranton, Pennsylvania stand. Meaning. I think what you're saying is this is not just a Jewish community issue. This is a proxy for something more, much bigger.
- [39:55]
John Fetterman
I agree, it is. It's just kind of like, whose side are you on? People that rape and torture young girls and women who. That tie families together and they set them on fire and they filmed that terrible things. They are proud of those things and the history when they don't want peace. If you look at their whole charter, the front and center, it's like we have to destroy Israel. The rampant anti Semitism that flood the campuses too. Saying things like from the river to the sea thing. Everyone understands what that is. I mean, that's Hamas jingle and they say, well, no, that's about universal human rights or whatever. It's like, oh, that's bullshit. You and I know what that means. And it's like at least have the character to stand by that kinds of eradicating Israel. And that's kind of like the rot that I described in my party and definitely in some of the elite kinds of institutions similar, just like the one I graduated from. And I did not recognize the campus that I graduated at that time a quarter of a century ago. And I had Republican members of the faculty, even people like Mickey Edwards and Alan Simpson and David Gergen and all of them. And that wasn't controversial in that. But now I can't even imagine one of the co founder of the Heritage foundation, you know, we got to run that guy out of a town with a rail in those things. And I can't imagine what kind of real dialogue's happening if you turn it into like a bubble. You know, that whole, the monoculture and that really kind of fomented all of this. Intensely anti Israel.
- [41:46]
Dan Senor
I want to talk about a couple of issues just before we wrap up that have been in the news that you have been an outspoken on or an outlier on. One of them is the effort in the Senate to sanction the International Criminal Court.
- [42:00]
John Fetterman
It turned out I was the only Democrat to vote.
- [42:02]
Dan Senor
You were the only Democrat to vote with the Republicans on that bill. Why did you think taking that position was so important? Because I'm sure you took a lot.
- [42:11]
John Fetterman
Of heat from for it because I've always like, hey, I'm going to follow Israel. It's like Israel fully understands the stakes and that's about their own survival. And like when you have an organization that has equivocated, you know, the leaders of Hamas and the democratic leader in a just war that's repugnant and now even IDF soldiers have to be concerned or they're going to get arrested in some of these, these member nations. It's absolutely, I reject that in the strongest way. And for me we had the opportunity when we were in the majority to do it right and they were unwilling to do that. I hope that it wasn't just the kind of pander afraid of like from an election. So now we have the opportunity and I'm going to sign, I'm going to vote for that, I'm going to sign on. And I did that and it was disappointing being the only member in my party. For me that's right or wrong and there isn't a lot of nuance when you are torturing and murdering innocent civilians and the way and the kind of conditions, let's not ever forget that has happened and why we've arrived at this place right now.
- [43:26]
Dan Senor
So there was a resolution addressing the two state solution. You were one of two Democrats to vote opposite the rest of your party on it. And then you've been supportive of some of the things President Trump has been saying about Gaza and what to do with Gaza going forward. So what's that about?
- [43:44]
John Fetterman
Yeah, no, no, I said that it's like for me that wasn't serious. That was just kind of like if for lack of a better term, that's almost kind of like a shock or a bluff to the system. Basically it's daring them. It's like either either you and these region, these nations take responsibility. It's like you do your job and. But you better figure out a better option because nobody actually wants to own this. We just want them to just figure out on building their own nation and not stop attacking Israel and we can all move on after that. And I think you've noticed after that, kind of a shock people now all of these nations are meeting together and saying, well hey, where's the better idea? Like hey, I'm all about that. So I would never ever support having American soldiers or that kinds of thing. I don't think anyone honestly wants to own Gaza. That's absurd, actually is truly absurd is that these so called experts have been absolutely wrong about the whole region throughout all these years. And all this generation, and after what Israel pushed through, after all of the constant ceasefire, ceasefire and all that pressure, you know, now look at that. Hamas was severely damaged and degraded. And then Hezbollah begging for a ceasefire. And now in Iran, Iran sent their best and now they essentially were now begging, kind of like, oh, no, no, please, no, no. How about that? So now you have an opportunity for the first, who knows when, where there could be possible peace. And aren't they ever hold themselves accountable for being absolutely wrong about all of the underlying dynamics? And that's all been shattered and blown away. So for me, it was easy to follow Israel understood. And I promise you that beepers and the walkie talkies and that kinds of intelligence will be the kind of a triumph, will be studied for the next 30 years. And now I might disagree with Joe Biden and I am going to disagree with maybe Donald Trump, but for me it's because I'm following Israel, because they are going to have what's closest to their true alignment.
- [46:00]
Dan Senor
Just in wrapping up here, a friend of yours who we know in common said to me that you recently met with A group of October 7th orphans of the war. And he said, ask him about it. So I'm asking you about it. Can you tell me who you met with?
- [46:19]
John Fetterman
My, well, I have two, well, I have three children, but two sons. And before they arrived, I spoke to my son and he got his, he just turned 16 and he just got his partner permit.
- [46:30]
Dan Senor
To drive.
- [46:30]
John Fetterman
Yeah, to drive. And the first orphan that I spoke to was 16 years old. And he described the circumstances, how his father saved, saved people and his father was killed. And I'm like, I talked to my son, a 16 year old, and just then talked to a 16 year old who became an orphan. And all of the, all of these children were able to describe those, I don't know how they do it. And they were grateful for my support. I'm like, no, you guys are heroes. You guys inspire me. And I couldn't function if I had to witness or if I've lost my parents throughout all that. Barbara. So like, that's the kind of thing that makes it easy. And now, yes, it costs money and I have dented my base and I know I've lost some kind of democratic support in certain quarters. But for me, following the right side and that moral clarity, I think for me personally, what defines your character are the things that you're willing to do that might even move against your own political interests.
- [47:53]
Dan Senor
You in your office have posters, hung up photos of the hostages yeah, well.
- [47:58]
John Fetterman
I've met with countless hostage families. Each one is an honor. And that started immediately, right after as a father and his son was taken as a hostage. And he had that iconic poster. And I said, would you sign this up? And we. We actually, we put it up. We put it up right outside my office, and then we were forced to move it inside. And then I was like, hey, they're all going to come up in my front room of my office. Because people have stopped talking about it and it receded into the public conversation. Well, not here it won't. And now, as they were released or they were rescued or they were murdered by Hamas, they were migrated from one side to the other, and it's closely monitored, and they're all going to stay up until everyone is brought home. And now look at today, what's happening. And they are terrorizing these hostages, and they are cheering when they are marching out with caskets of children that they've killed. And it's like, where does this sickness come from? And, like, what kind of a society puts up the kinds of organization that has normalized the kinds of depravity? And where have you lost the humanity to cheering the death of children and marched out like if it was like a Mardi Gras parade.
- [49:34]
Dan Senor
Senator Fetterman, thank you for your courage, for your leadership, and for.
- [49:38]
John Fetterman
It's not courage. It really isn't. What's courage is being living and forced to live in a tunnel or in the dark for 500 days, or being a soldier and fighting for the survival of your nation and being in those families, or they're living under the risk of rocket attacks, that's courage. Being a senator, that's small compared to that. I never expected if that voice would penetrate, but if it did, I'm just grateful to proudly stand with that community, witnessing at a very, very hyperlocal way, like after the Tree of Life. But now, if people have sought out after my voice, that's an incredible honor. But for me, that's been easy.
- [50:28]
Dan Senor
Well, then I'll thank you for your clarity. How about that? Thank you for your clarity and thank you for your time today and hope to have you back on and continue this conversation.
- [50:38]
John Fetterman
Well, I do hope, if that happens, and I do look forward to it, that there's even more and more better outcomes right now. And we don't have no more cheering over caskets or terrorizing a poor woman in the middle of a crowd. But what won't change if I am back on Nexus? My vote and voice is not going to change if I see you and speak again.
- [51:01]
Dan Senor
Thank you.
- [51:14]
Elon Benatar
That's our show for today. You can head to our website, ark media.org that's ark arkmedia.org to sign up for updates. Get in touch with us, access our transcripts, all of which have been hyperlinked to resources that we hope will enrich your understanding of the topics covered in the episodes on this podcast. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Elon Benatar, additional editing by Martin Huro, research by Stav Slama and Gabe Silverstein, and our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.