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- [00:04]
A
You are listening to an art media podcast. Remember when Mordecai says to Esther, you gotta go save us? And she says, I'm too scared. He doesn't say, oh, my, whatever shall we do? He simply says to her, esti bubala, have you ever stopped to consider for this moment that you are now the queen of the most powerful empire on the planet for this exact purpose? And that is when her epiphany happens and she steps up to the plate and she saves us. And Purim teaches us that we all are going to have in our lives these Esther moments. We are all gonna have this. There is no coincidence, Dan. We are each in exactly the place that we should be for our ultimate purpose. And when we have these situations or missions that are presented to us, that are sometimes gonna be massive, but the issue is we're not always gonna unmasking it for us. We're not always gonna have a Mordechai saying, sweetheart, it is your time to shine. And the challenge is discovering and unwrapping these moments, especially when they're scary. And I think that what Purim reminds us is that the energy exists and is out there to recognize the hidden plans, the hidden plans for each of our unique paths. And what we have to do, all of us is open our eyes wide to find out what each of ours is.
- [01:52]
B
It's 5pm on Wednesday, February 25, in snowy New York City. It's midnight on Thursday, February 26, in Israel, where Israelis remain on high alert for a possible conflict with Iran. In his record breaking State of the Union address in terms of length, President Trump did address the issue of Iran. He emphasized that his priority remains diplomacy, but noted that while the regime wants a deal, they so far have failed to say, quote, the secret words that Iran will abandon its enrichment program. On this point, the President was unequivocal, saying that he will not allow the world's number one sponsor of terror to attain nuclear weapons. Perhaps the most interesting framing of the Iran threat was in very much America first terms, when the President said, they have already developed missiles that can threaten Europe and our bases overseas, and they are working to build missiles that will soon reach the United States. In that vein, he also talked about how much American blood the Iranian regime has on its hands. On Wednesday, Indian Prime Minister Modi landed in Israel to a warm welcome from Prime Minister Netanyahu, who embraced the Indian Prime Minister on the tarmac at Ben Gurion Airport. Prime Minister Modi spoke before Israel's Knesset later in the day, describing Israel as a powerhouse of innovation and expressed a commitment to strengthen geopolitical and economic ties between the two countries. It was reported earlier in the week that the two countries are officially in the process of negotiating a comprehensive trade agreement. In New Delhi, Knesset Speaker Amir Ohana also honored Prime Minister Modi with the Medal of the Knesset, citing the prime Minister's significant commitment to Israel and the Jewish world. Now onto today's episode. The Jewish holiday of Purim is almost upon us. It's the holiday we normally associate with frivolity, with children dressing up in costumes, the Jewish Halloween, and with adults getting the pious permission to get intoxicated. So of course, we're bringing friend of the pod, Rachel Goldberg Polin, who is Call Me Back's official holiday Mythbuster to bust all those misconceptions and show us why Purim is about much, much deeper questions about hiddenness, identity, and purpose. Rachel is our favorite teacher on all things Jewish holidays. So we hope you enjoy this discussion and lesson as much as we did. Rachel Goldberg Polin on Purim and Destiny. This is Call Me, And I'm pleased to welcome back to the podcast Rachel Goldberg Polin, who joins us from Jerusalem.
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A
Hi, Dan.
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B
I know we're here to discuss a holiday, Purim, but I feel like we are living through historic times. And I'm not talking about what is happening or may not be happening in the part of the world that you're in right now and what could or may or may not happen with Iran. I'm talking about this historic period in Jewish history in terms of the ascendancy of Jewish athleticism. All right, three names I want to mention to you. Denny Avja, who plays for the Portland Trailblazers, who just first Israeli to play for in the NBA All Star Game, Jack Hughes and Aaron Frankel, two Jewish hockey players who just crushed it in Team usa. Jack Hughes, by the way, there's a mad scramble right now on the Internet to try to figure out what his parsha was from his bar mitzvah. So we're also living through an age of like Jewish hockey dynasty. Years and years and years from now, the Rachel Goldberg Polands and Dan Senors could be doing a podcast looking back at this period. It's a big moment for the Jews.
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A
Well, wahoo.
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B
I know you're not following it at all, but it's exciting.
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A
I am not.
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B
But aren't you seeing all the buzz?
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A
I mean, I'm not because, you know, strangely, I'm on a newsfast.
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B
So you just completely unplugged.
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A
Yeah. Which is probably concerning. I Don't know that you should include that.
- [06:10]
B
Well, I will send you. You can count on me to send you sports updates, but these are just not sports updates. These is, like I said, a big moment for the Jewish people.
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A
Trust me, it's historical.
- [06:19]
B
It's historical. Every Jewish mother in America is spending their days right now sending messages to everybody they know, letting them know how well these Jewish athletes just did in the Olympics. It's epic. But we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about Purim, which I know is not your favorite holiday to celebrate, but it is, from what you've told me, your favorite holiday to teach. And a, I want to know why it's your favorite holiday to teach and we'll get before we get into it. And two, you do believe it's, like, the least understood holiday. You called it the jokester at the frat party holiday, which is like, you have these great summaries. What did you call it? Was it Shavuot? That was the Sabrina of Charlie's Angels.
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A
It's true. Shavuot is the Sabrina of Charlie's Angels. And I feel like Purim to me, always reminded me of that guy in your class growing up or the guy in college who was the total jokester, who was always standing next to the keg at the party, who was funny and smiling and telling hilarious stories. It was Dave. Dave. Who doesn't love Dave?
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B
We all have a Dave.
- [07:23]
A
Everyone has a Dave. Think back. And just like Purim, which is traditionally, we think like, oh, Purim. Fun, games, costumes, cookies, goodie bags. And yet, if you ever took the time to get to know Dave, there was a deeper, more philosophical, philosophical side to him. And so too with Purim. In fact, Daniel, I think that Purim's message, in my opinion, is one of the most profound and compelling in all of Jewish thought, actually. And that predates October 7th. You know, I divide my life in between the before and the after, and this way predates October 7th. And by the way, as we have had our tradition in the past, that we always try to learn together in the merit of something good happening. And for all the times that we've studied together, it was in the merit that all of the hostages would come home.
- [08:17]
B
And by the way, this is the first time, I just want to acknowledge, this is the first time I think we've learned together. I'm just used to starting every one of our time sessions together, learning with studying in the merit of the hostages and the prayers and the hopes that the hostages would return. And I'm realizing as you're speaking, this is the first time we've done this, when we were not compelled to say that. But yet you still want us to learn in the merit of what I'd
- [08:41]
A
like us to learn in the merit of healing. There are so many people, not just in our neck of the woods or in this region, but in our world. There are so many people who are really in a lot of pain, different kinds of pain. Mental, spiritual, psychological, emotional pain. And I would like to study together in the merit of the easing of this pain that so many people are having. So when we talk about Purim, there are actually two aspects of Purim that speak to me every single day. But I'm gonna keep you a little bit in suspense until the end of our conversation to sort of illuminate what are those two facets. But as usual, before we begin, there are always a lot of questions begging to be answered before we even start our conversation.
- [09:30]
B
Can I hit one of those questions, please? Because in the lead up to this convers, I misunderstood something you said when we were talking about doing something together for Purim. I thought I heard you saying, purim is my favorite holiday. And actually, I was wrong. You were not saying Purim is my favorite holiday. You were saying, purim is my favorite holiday to teach.
- [09:52]
A
Yes.
- [09:53]
B
Which is, some could say, a distinction without a difference. But I think as you kind of yelled at me before we started recording, it is a distinction with a real difference. So don't blur the difference. So can you just tell me what the distinction is? We'll get into it. But what's the distinction between a holiday that you love and a holiday you love to teach?
- [10:09]
A
Well, I think the actual holiday of Purim, as on the surface, is a lot of festivities and food and fun and costumes. And I think I enjoyed it much more as a child than as an adult, for whatever reasons. And again, this way predates October 7th. So I don't know. But I do know that when I teach it, because I didn't necessarily love hanging out with Dave when he was being the jokester and telling all these punny stories, but I liked when I said to him, dave, I wanna hear about your childhood. Tell me what makes you cry. And that part of Dave I enjoyed. And so that part of Purim, that there's this other side, this hidden side of Purim, this very elusive secretness to Purim. And I think that once you get in on that secret, then it has this much more vibrant, textured appeal. And that's what I like. And I get to that through the teaching of it, not through the celebrating of it.
- [11:15]
B
Okay, so then let's jump into it. And I want to start with the basics. Beginning with the historical period. Tell us what's going on in the world and in Jewish history, when the Purim story takes place in Persia, which ironically is present day Iran. How symbolic. But tell us what's going on.
- [11:34]
A
Okay, so first of all, you know that I hate being lost on the street or in history. So I like to just very quickly say if we went all the way back to the beginning of the Torah of the Hebrew Bible, it starts with God saying, let there be light. We have Adam and Eve and the unfortunate fruit incident. We have Noah and the flood and the rainbow. We have Abraham, the first Jew who begets Isaac, who begets Jacob, who begets 12 sons. One of them is Joseph. He ends up being sold to people going down to Egypt by his brothers. Ultimately, all of them end up in Egypt. At first everything is great and then everything is very bad. And we become slaves. And we're slaves for hundreds of years. There's a debate how many years God ends up taking us out of Egypt with Moses doing most of the heavy lifting. And we wander for 40 years in the desert and the Jewish people enter the promised land with Joshua as their leader. And it's now around 12, 1200 BCE time passes and in 957 BCE, King Solomon builds the first temple. King Solomon is King David's son. I think it's hard for all of us to comprehend what was that temple. It was not simply the big Gulp of Jewish synagogues, although it was this very impressive giant structure. But the temple ultimately was this conduit for all humankind to relate to the idea of God for all humankind. When King Solomon first does the convocation, he actually says, this is for all humankind. So that's an interesting point. But for the Jewish people, the temple is the singular focal point for all spiritual and national life. Time passes, a lot happens. But Dan, we're on a mission, so we're moving. Buckle up if you have an insatiable need for more details. That's lovely. Go take a Jewish history class. Okay, people, we're moving.
- [13:43]
B
All right? And we'll provide supplementary materials for people to read.
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A
That's right, it's now 586 BCE. The Kingdom of Judah and the tribe of Benjamin are kind of like trudging along in and around Jerusalem. When the Babylonians, who are the modern day Iraq, led By Min, Nebuchadnezzar come in and conquer Jerusalem. He destroys the temple, he takes all of the holy vessels, steals them that were used for ritual purposes and takes those back to Babylon. And he exiles most of the remnants of the Jewish people who are living. Not all, not all, but most of them back to Babylonia, where this fascinating thing happens, which is the Jews acclimate to their new surroundings. They make good lives for themselves in Babylonia. They prosper economically, they build nice homes.
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B
This alone. This alone is a story that repeats itself.
- [14:40]
A
Correct? Many, many. This will sound familiar. They build nice places to live, they build nice day schools, they study houses, they build academies for the wisest of sages. They have nice JCCs. Everything is going well. And then 47 years pass and knock, knock. Who's there? It's me, Persia, your neighbor, modern day Iran. And I'm conquering you. That is in the year 537bce. And the Persian king who ends up taking over the whole entire empire is named Ahasuerush. And he throws a very big party. For six months, he uses all of his newly acquired plundered holy vessels that he stole from Nebuchadnezzar, who had taken from the temple. Because when you conquer someone, guess what? You get all their goodies. And this is the party. The lights go down and the show begins at this opulent gala. And that is the setting of the first chapter of the book of Esther that is in the Hebrew Bible. So we've gone through 3,000 years of Jewish history in four minutes.
- [15:51]
B
That was amazing. In three minutes, not even four minutes. Here's my question. So King Ahasuerus conquers what we would call today Iraq. The Persians that are living under King Ahasuerus in Persia, who are they? Do they have relations with the Jews? How do we connect the Persians of the Achashvarush era with the Jews at that time? Where did the Jews fit into life in Persia?
- [16:16]
A
Well, I'm not completely clear about that. I can tell you that later. Something that happens is that when Haman is describing the Jewish people to the king, he's saying, there's people who live among us, they have acculturated, they are assimilated, but they're not like us.
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B
Right.
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A
And so it sounds a lot like Nazi Germany when they're trying to say, like, they're in our midst, but they're not who we are.
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B
Right.
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A
So I'm not sure if that was the case, but. So don't quote me, Pat.
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B
Don't quote you? Okay. So here we are. Before we get into the Book of Esther, is there anything else on this historical period, on this moment that we need to know before we jump into the actual story?
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A
Well, I think that what's important to know is that this Book of Esther is one of the five scrolls that is included in the Hebrew Bible.
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B
But for people who aren't familiar with the holiday just want to do super remedial. The book of Esther is the Megillah, what we call the Megillah. I mean there's more than one Megillah. But the Book of Esther is the Purim story. It is the core text of Purim. I just want our listeners to understand what we're talking about now.
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A
Correct. It's the primary source.
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B
Right.
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A
The scroll of Esther is located in the Hebrew Bible. Toward the end there are five scrolls. You just referred to that there are five, Michelo. We read them at different times of the year. This one is included in the Jewish Hebrew canon. And what's interesting about the scroll of Esther is It's divided into 10 chapters. It's very readable. You could Google it right now, you could read it in 15 minutes. And what I love about it is that it is filled with drama, mystery, intrigue, literally. It's like better than the Sopranos. It's got everything you need to build the bones of the story of Purim. I like traveling through the Megillah itself, through the Book of Esther. I think there's no better way to really familiarize ourselves with the story than to go through Esther.
- [18:23]
B
Let's do it.
- [18:24]
A
Dan, I think you need to get some sort of hat or a handkerchief so your hair doesn't get wind blown. Because we are moving, my friend. All right? We're moving fast. Are you with me?
- [18:35]
B
I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm buckled up here.
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A
Do you need a defibrillator?
- [18:39]
B
Yes. Let's go.
- [18:40]
A
Because chapter one, what's so incredible is that it's describing the kingdom that stretched the way from India to Nubia. Nubia is in Egypt. And there are 127 provinces that are encapsulated in this massive empire that Ahashverosh is now running. And he has this six month party. And at the last week of those six months, he opens up the party to everyone. It's like an all you can eat buffet and all you can drink bar for everyone. It says the rule is there are no limits. Have as much as you like, take a doggy bag. And then at the end of the party Ahashveirosh says, I would like my queen, whose name was Vashti, to come so I could show her off, because she's lovely, she's beautiful, and I would like everyone to see her. And they send a message to Vashti saying, your husband would like you to come to the party. And she says, I don't wanna. That's the actual quote. I don't wanna. It's not true. It's not the quote, but I'm just. I'm summarizing.
- [19:45]
B
Yeah.
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A
And she's not in the mood. And now we're in a pickle. You know why? Because what happens when a person of authority and influence and power is defied? There has to be a consequence, right? And all the more so in this situation, this scenario, the defiance is by a woman.
- [20:03]
B
Ooh. Okay.
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A
The nerve, right? So the king's advisors all meet and they decide, we're gonna have a problem.
- [20:11]
B
They decide this is taking chutzpah to a new level.
- [20:14]
A
And they say, what are we gonna do about this? Because now word is spreading, and there are gonna be people all over the empire. When a man asks his wife to do something, she's gonna say, well, I don't wanna do your laundry. Why should I? The queen doesn't even come when the king asks her to come. So we have an issue. And the advisors say, we have to get rid of her. And she is banished. We don't know exactly what happened. There are different commentators. Some say that she was killed. Some say, I think she was just canceled. What? Gone? Time ticks. Time flies. By the way, the story begins in the third year of Ahasuerus's reign. And that's interesting to know because we kind of think of this story because it's such so few pages. We think that it happened very, very quickly. The span of the story takes place somewhere between nine and 11 years. There's a debate.
- [21:09]
B
But he has his queen executed.
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A
Well, we don't know if she was executed. Maybe she was just banished. Maybe she was just put in an apartment. Ok. You know, across town.
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B
But she's excised from the story.
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A
She exits, stage right. And we never see her or hear from her again.
- [21:25]
B
Which brings us to chapter two.
- [21:27]
A
Right? And time ticks. And what does a powerful man do when he's lonely and he needs a new wife? He has a mandatory beauty contest. And almost parenthetically at this point, we're introduced to Mordecai, who we are told is a Jewish who had come to that area from the exile of Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians when they exiled the people from Israel. And he has adopted his cousin, his cousin who has lost both her parents. She's an orphan, and her name is Esther. And he tells Esther, go to the casting call for the beauty contest, but zip it about who you are. Don't ask, don't tell. I don't know that he told her to lie, but he said, you know, like, be demure.
- [22:15]
B
And does that mean don't let them know you're a Jew?
- [22:18]
A
I think so. I think it means don't let them know you're a Jew. Don't let them know that you actually have no pedigree at all of which to speak. Which maybe that's a hint of that would have been something that would have precluded her from being a candidate. It's not clear. Okay, we know that what happens is she is chosen. She becomes queen, this young woman. And every day Mordechai kind of loiters by the royal gate, the royal courtyard, to kind of be at least somewhere nearby to understand what's happening to her. And the wild thing that happens is one day Mordechai is loitering in that area, and he overhears two people from the king's close circle planning an assassination attempt. So he writes a message and he gets it to Esther saying there's two guys and he names them Bigtan and Tarash who are planning to execute the king. You have to warn him. The king does an investigation. It's found to be true. They execute these two people, and it's all written down in the annals of the king's records. And now we have next scene. And the next scene is that there's a new minister that they king promotes, and his name is Haman. And Haman, we are told, is descended from Agag. Agag is the royal family of Amalek. Amalek is the Lex Luthor of the Jewish people. Amalek is the tribe that when we were talking a few minutes ago about the Jewish people wandering for 40 years through the desert, when we left Egypt, there were different tribes that we would sometimes come in contact with who we had conflict when we encountered them. But Amalek was specifically, specifically nefarious and evil and would come from behind and attack the women and children and elderly. And so Amalek holds a very dark place in sort of the Jewish thought. And we now are being told that this man Haman, who came to power, was descended from this stock. And Haman has some sort of psychological Challenges. We don't know if he had mother issues. We don't know if he had small body parts. We don't know what the problem is. But he demands that everyone bow down to him, which seems a little extreme. At some point, he runs into Mordechai. Mordechai does not bow down to him. And Haman is angry with like, lots of R's angry. And he says, who is this guy who is not bowing down to me? And he finds out that the guy's name is Mordechai and that he's a Jew. And very rationally, Haman says, well, then I want to kill all the Jews. Which seems a little over the top, but that's just me.
- [25:11]
B
You are right. I mean, you said compared it to the Sopranos. It is written like, there you go, you're holding it up. For those of you who are watching
- [25:17]
A
this, it's my favorite. This is my favorite translation because, you know, every translation is an interpretation, and it's beautiful.
- [25:25]
B
So you just went through chapter three. So now you're bringing Mordecai into this, which is chapter four. So tell us. Haman convinces the king to have all the Jews in his empire executed on a single day. Right. Adar 13.
- [25:38]
A
Correct. He makes it very sort of random. He creates a little like a bag of lots. And he puts all the months of the year and he pulls out one, and it's Adar. And he pulls out from the number bag 13. So Adar 13 becomes the date of national kill your neighbor day. And it's going to be in all 127 provinces. And he has to go sell the idea to the king, which he does in chapter three. And that's where that language is so fascinating that you're familiar with. You know, when he's saying, there's these people and they're blended in and they're acclimated and acculturated, and yet they're not us. And what's interesting for me also, when we jump ahead to different regimes that have not liked us, which is pretty much everybody, it's either they're trying to be like us or they're not being like us.
- [26:31]
B
That is so right.
- [26:33]
A
And either way, they don't like us. We could either try to become like them and then it's they're trying to become like us, or we could try to stay true to ourself. And they say, why aren't they being like us? So, you know, we're damned if we do we, damn it if we don't.
- [26:46]
B
You know what Rachel, you just summed up, like, basically three to 4,000 years of the history of antisemitism kind of in those two sentences. It's either this or it's that, but either way, we're screwed, correct?
- [26:59]
A
So everybody just have a little bit of a drink and do some deep breathing. But the king trusts his minister, so he says, sure, if you're saying these people are bad news, here's my ring. Make an edict, seal it with the king's ring, and distribute the edict. Now Mordechai is in the world, so he gets a copy of this edict that says, hear ye, hear ye, on day 13 of the month of Adar, in a few months, it's gonna be national kill your neighbor day in all 127 provinces of the biggest empire in the. And Mordechai. And all of the Jews go into complete panic, correctly? And mourning and crying and very nervous. And Mordechai is wearing sackcloth, which is something that people would do as a sign of mourning. And he had ash on his forehead. And the people near the royal gate see him, and they get a message to Esther, and they say, that guy who you're kind of friends with, he's wearing rags. He looks terrible. He's crying. Now. She didn't have Instagram. She didn't have Facebook. She didn't have any newspapers, so she has no idea what's going on. She sends a message with clothing to him. You know, she has no idea what happened. Like, what is going on. And this. We're in chapter four, and this is when Mordechai sends back to her a copy of the edict for her to read. And he sends her a very important message saying, you need to save us. You need to go. Now is the time. You've been quiet. The king does not know your background. You need to go say, there's someone who's trying to kill us. And she sends back a message to Mordechai saying, I am too scared. And this is such a monumental message that he sends back.
- [28:52]
B
She says, I'm too scared to do
- [28:53]
A
this because everybody knows you are not allowed to go to the king's court unless you have been summoned there. And the consequence of going to the king's court if you have not been summoned is death. The guy was not into Poppins, okay? And so she is scared. She doesn't want to go. And Mordechai says to her, have you ever once considered how insane and bananas it is that you, little Esther, are in this position? Have you ever once thought maybe you're in this position for this very reason. And basically, he's giving her this virtual wake up and smell the coffee slap. And she realizes in that moment, okay, it's my time. She realizes this is her why, this is her purpose. And she goes into preparation mode. She's very scared. She's proud, praying. She has all of the people with her who sort of attend to her praying.
- [29:56]
B
Rachel, I just want to. Just. Because I think there's this very specific language on this particular point where people use this line all the time. And the line is, for such a time as this, this is a line you hear referenced all the time in Judaism, but not only in Judaism, you hear it referenced in other religions, you hear referenced in popular culture for such a time as this. And this is where it comes from, where Mordechai's challenge to Esther, and I'm quoting here, and who knows whether you have attained royalty for such a time as this. You have been plucked and put in this moment where you are now a member of royalty. A Jew. A Jew is a member of royalty here in Persia. Like, you just think it happened randomly. Maybe you were put here for this particular moment. It's an iconic line.
- [30:42]
A
It's even stronger, I think, because I don't think he says. I mean, if he says, maybe, maybe it's tongue in cheek to him. It's obvious that she has been put there for this exact second in the history of the Jewish people to save us. And she goes. She prepares herself, and she has all the people around her preparing themselves in every way. So, right. We know that she's fasting, which is something that a lot of people do when they're getting ready to do something spiritual or religious that has serious consequences. And she also is, you know, going to the spa. She's preparing herself because she's gonna go see the guy who generally kills people if they show up without an invitation. And she's really trying to figure out from all different angles, how can I succeed at getting in there? And she goes. And the king sees her standing in the doorway, and he says, oh, my gosh. Hi. What are you doing here? Come on in. What do you need? Your wish is my command. Even if you want half the kingdom, I'll give it to you. What is it? And she's so overwhelmed that that was his reaction, that she does something very human. I really feel for her in this moment because she gets stage fright and she says, I'll come back tomorrow. And I'll tell you, she gets verklempt. I mean, we also have to Remember, I think when doing the math, there are debates of how old she is, but she's basically 18, 19, 20 years old. If. So, she's a young woman and it's scary. And. And meanwhile, what's crazy is she's walking out. She says, okay, I'll be back tomorrow. And Haman is with the king. And so he's excited. Cause he's like, great, I'll also come back tomorrow and I'll have coffee with you and the queen. And Haman is walking out, and who does he bump into? What a coincidence. Boom. He runs into Mordechai. I mean, the guy who always makes him feel. Even when he's feeling like a million, he makes him feel like a million ducks. So he is cranky and he goes home and he's complaining to his family, saying, I ran into that Jew again. And he never bows down to me. And he's a real thorn in his side. And his family says, I have a great idea, dad, or honey, if it was his wife, why don't you build a really tall stake and we'll impale him on it? You'll convince the king to impale him on this stake. Cause he's such a terrible guy. Now, that very night, we're now moving along in the next chapter. That very night, it says, the king, suddenly, for the first time ever, has insomnia. So what do you do when you have insomnia? You say to your servant, can you please read me a story?
- [33:34]
B
You don't take Ambien.
- [33:36]
A
You read. Even my father taught me that. Get out of bed and read. Okay. So the servant brings the history book of Ahasuerus, and he opens up this book that has thousands of pages in it. And the king says, start reading me that page. And it's the page that just so happened to describe Mordecai warning the king years before about the assassination attempt of those two men, Bigtash and Teresh. And he says, what did I ever do for that guy who saved my life from Beqtan and Teresh? And the servant says, nothing. Reading in the book, we did nothing for him. So the king says, well, that's crazy. Who's in the courtyard right now? Go out. Even though it's, you know, the middle of the night. Well, guess who's in the courtyard? It's Haman, coming to tell the king, I would like to impale that guy, who's very annoying, on the huge stakes that I'm creating in my garden at home. And the king says to Haman, what do you think I should do for someone who I think is awesome? That's the exact words in the text. What should I do for someone I think is awesome? So, of course Haman thinks he's gotta be talking about me. So he said, I think you should have them wear royal clothing that you've worn and a hat that you've worn, and one of your fanciest horses that you have. And then have one of your courtiers who works for you lead the horse, saying, this is what the king does for someone he wants to show honor to. And the king says, that sounds amazing. Please go do everything you just said for Mordecai. And again, I mean, Haman cannot catch a break with this. So Haman has to go do this for Mordechai. And he does. And it's the middle of the night, but that's the way things roll in Persia. And there's like, everybody sees this exciting thing happen. And then Haman goes home to get ready for the. He has to go shower and get ready because remember, the next day he's having this little get together with the king and the queen, because that's when Esther's finally gonna get her courage to bid to save her people. So the next morning he shows up. And the next scene is Mordecai and Esther and Haman. And the king says, okay, sweetie, what is it? What is it that you wanted from me? And she says, there's someone who is trying to kill me, and there's someone who's trying to kill my people. And the king is furious and said, what are you talking about? Who is trying to kill my queen? And she says, it's him. And Haemon is horrified.
- [36:20]
B
This is a very dramatic scene.
- [36:22]
A
It is super dramatic. It's like, better call Saul. The king storms out and Haman throws himself onto Esther to beg for mercy and beg for forgiveness for this. And the king walks back in right as Haman has thrust himself upon Esther. And the king loses his mind, saying, and now you're ravaging my wife in my house. And a servant standing there says, oh. And he in his garden has a huge stake that he has erected to impale Mordechai, who saved your life a few years ago. And the king says, holy cow, take him and impale him on that stake. And that happens. And Haman is killed.
- [37:12]
B
And by the way, this is just like halfway through the story.
- [37:15]
A
Oh yeah, there's so much more.
- [37:17]
B
So it's massive plot twist. Haman is now killed, or the king of Hashvarosh has Haman killed. And wow, okay, so then what, right?
- [37:26]
A
I mean, we can't keep up with the excitement. Somebody get me a tranquilizer. And the problem is that we still have national kill your Jewish neighbor day coming down the track. Because once an edict has been issued, you cannot rescind it. So Mordechai and Esther go and plead with Ahasuerus, what can we do? And he says, take my ring and write an edict allowing the Jews to defend themselves. Because then at least they have some sort of way to prevent this real tragedy from happening. And that is what they do. And they. Again, I really encourage people to read the book of Esther. And you'll see what happens at the end is we end up turning this day from what could have been disaster into being okay. And then Mordechai says, we should really try to be more united as a people. And here's how we do that. And that's where he comes up with this idea of we should send food, papers, packages to each other. We should feast together. We should take care of people who have less. We should send either packages, actual money, or food to lesser fortunate people in the community. And it's all very exciting. And that is sort of the end of the story.
- [38:48]
B
But wait a minute. And they want the story sent far and wide, correct? They want this story to be. Actually, we talk about a scroll, a megillah, like it is, is very deliberate by Mordechai. We gotta get this story written and we've gotta get it sent far and wide. Why?
- [39:03]
A
I mean, I think it's really interesting because I think it even says at the end, I'm in chapter nine. And chapter 10 is like just a few lines, but it says Mordechai recorded these events. So he's actually writing in the third person. Mordechai recorded these events and he sent dispatches to all the Jews throughout the provinces of King Achashveros, near and far, charging them to observe the 14th and 15th days of Adar every year. The same days that the Jews enjoyed relief from their foes. And they were to observe them as feasting and merrymaking, and on this occasion, sending food, gifts to one another and presents to the poor. And the Jews started to take this on from that time until now. And in theory, it creates more unity in our communities. And it's just this fascinating tale. Because the thing that's fascinating to me is who is not in this story? Like who? We meet a lot of characters here, right? Who are some of the characters that we meet? Who was your favorite character? Dan?
- [40:12]
B
Who do you love the best, Obviously, Esther.
- [40:15]
A
Of course. She's so cool.
- [40:17]
B
Yes. Esther is the star of the show, but Mordecai is so intrigued as a character because he drives the plot.
- [40:24]
A
Yes. And there's Ahashverosh, and there's Haman, and there's Vashti, and there's.
- [40:29]
B
But there's no God, which is weird, right?
- [40:33]
A
Because this is the Bible. This is the Hebrew Bible, and we have 24 books of the Hebrew Bible. And in every other book there's a question about Song of Songs, but we're gonna put that on the side for now. In every other book, there are basically,
- [40:47]
B
God is everywhere in all these stories, except for this one.
- [40:50]
A
God is a character in the stories. And seemingly. It feels like. It feels like God is not in this story. Right. Because if you look on the surface.
- [41:01]
B
But Rich, I do. In the spirit of underlining key points, this is one I want to double, triple underline for our listeners. Nowhere in this story, Rachel, you just went through the story and you never mentioned God because God is nowhere in the story. You're hard pressed to find any other major holiday. We study, study throughout the Jewish calendar, the Hebrew calendar, that that is the case. God is usually everywhere, and yet in this story, he's nowhere. So, A, why? And B, is he actually nowhere?
- [41:30]
A
Right. I was going to say. Well, you know, the key word is seemingly. Seemingly God is not in this story. And, you know, the reality is that it's also often like life, sometimes life. We find ourselves feeling like this place is very random, without mooring, without rhyme or reason. And it feels very coincidental our whole lives. And if you look back at the Purim story, right, it seems coincidental. If you start going through it, it is interesting that Vashti says, I don't want to come to your party. It is interesting that out of all the women in Shushan, in the city of Shushan, who go out to apply for this position of queen that Esther has chosen. It is interesting that Mordechai is hanging out to try to make sure that she's okay and happens to overhear an assassination plot. It is interesting that Haman coincidentally just bumps into Mordechai and goes home to build a stake to impale him on. It's interesting that Achashverosh has insomnia and opens up the book. And the page that he falls upon is something that happened years prior that illuminate what Mordechai had done to save him. Basically, in the end, what happens is it seems like there are events happening one after the other, after the other, after the other. And then it hits us and we start to comprehend this theme of masks and hiddenness and costumes of Purim, because the truth is, it had already been told to us. This is fascinating to me that when Moses was preparing the children of Israel to go into the land after wandering in the desert for 40 years, in chapter 31 of the book of Devarim, of the Book of Deuteronomy, he describes for the children of Israel that there is going to come a time in the future where there will be a perceived absence of God. There will be a perceived absence of God in life for different reasons, by the way, and there are all these different reasons. The one that speaks the most to me is that people will not have the humility to understand that all the goodness that we have in our lives actually comes from something bigger than us. We like to believe I have this fancy car or this wonderful home or this gorgeous necklace or whatever it is, because I've worked really hard, because I have earned it. And people forget that there's something else that gives the blessings in our lives, and that is considered a lack of humility. And that lack of humility will lead to a lack of perceived godliness in our lives. And things will be extremely hidden. The idea of God will be extremely hidden. In fact, Rabbi Nachman, who is the Hasidic master, the Hasidic mystic from 200 years ago, talks about there will be a concealment within a concealment within a concealment. When we drift from humility, when we drift from being humble and understanding, where does all the goodness in life come from?
- [44:55]
B
From?
- [44:55]
A
But what I think is fascinating, and I know it's getting, like, very philosophical, but what I like about the inclusion of the Book of Esther in the Hebrew Bible in the Jewish canon is that what it's saying is that there is absolutely a place in our tradition for anyone who struggles to find God or grapples with this idea of holiness, godliness, sacredness in our lives. There is a place that is very real. It's very understandable. We live in a confusing world. And I think what sometimes also gets lost is that the name of this holiday is actually completely sarcastic. This holiday could have been called the holiday of Esther. The Jews beat the national kill your Jewish neighbor day edict. I mean, there could be a lot of different names. And the fact that we called this random, you know, Purim means in Persian. It's the Persian word for lots or lottery that we call this whole entire story Random lottery is sort of like Tongue in cheek, Jewish humor of. You know, like when you have a massive dog and you name him Tiny.
- [46:10]
B
Right?
- [46:11]
A
That's what this is. And it's saying, yeah, you think this life or this holiday is a lottery. It's anything but. It is anything but. And so that message of Purim, to find the sacred in our lives and meaning and reason for being here, to me, is a huge message of this whole entire holiday.
- [46:32]
B
I want to come back to that, but before I do, one thing I've always been struck about Purim is the specificity of the Mitzvot. We are called upon to perform or to participate in the actions, the rituals on this holiday. It's very specific. There are these four meets foot. Now, you have been. I've been struck by this during this conversation and in our conversations offline, including yesterday, you've been adamant that you want people to read the Megillah. You're more adamant about that point, about actually reading the text than I have heard you, Rachel, in any of our conversations. Looking at any of these, studying any of these other hagim, any of these other holidays. On this one, you can. You were like, read the text. It'll take you 15 minutes. People read the text. I never hear you that adamant. And that is really one of the very specific acts that we were called upon. What is it about? Why. Why are you so adamant? And I wanna go through all four, and I know you're more adamant about this one than you are about the other mitzvot, which we'll get to in a second. But why? You just did a very good job of telling the story. So why is it so important to read the story?
- [47:37]
A
Well, I think it's just doable. It's easy. And when things are doable and easy, and it's not religious per se, because I'm always hesitant. I feel like I wanna be descriptive when you and I have our conversations and not perscriptive. I think that. And in order to just learn more about this holiday, it's so easy. Just read this really short book. It's 10 extremely short chapters. The 10th chapter is five lines. I mean, so that's why I am encouraging people, because I kind of feel like it's interesting. And it's also rare that we have a primary text that's so accessible. It's very readable. It's not complicated language. That's something that I just think holds a lot of weight. And the tradition is that we hear the Megillah both in the evening of Purim and in the morning. And there's a tradition which I think is interesting. When the name Haman is said, we're supposed to blot out the name. So there are noisemakers that in English we call them Gregors. In Hebrew they're called gregors. And we make noise every time we hear Haman's name. Of course, I think that's kind of ironic because what it means is that children really learn this name and remember this name when we're trying, in theory, to blot out the name. So there's that, which is interesting. I like the idea that we give gifts of. Per Mordechai's recommendation, we give gifts of either food or money to at least two people in need in the community.
- [49:15]
B
Okay, so there's the telling the story, which is one of the mitzvot. There's this sending the gifts. Mishloch manot. Sending a gift we're prescribed to do to at least two different. Okay, no, no, tell me.
- [49:26]
A
The gifts to money. The gifts, excuse me, of money or food is called in Hebrew matanot le evion, which is presence to the poor or presence to the needy. It's probably nicer. And that you're supposed to give to at least two people in the community. Packages to our neighbors to create like a more warm feeling within the community are called mishloach manot packages that we send to each other. And in theory, the most bare bones is send one package to one person with two ready to eat foods. Yeah, any foods. Right. It doesn't have to be sweet treats, although sometimes it is. And that we have a feast. There are extra prayers that we say in the daily prayers. We add a few different extra prayers. We also have a Torah reading. The piece of the Torah that we read on Purim is the section about Amalek.
- [50:21]
B
But in other words, why sending the gifts? Why to community members? Why giving gifts to. To the needy? Like, why is this holiday so specific about those things? You can make the argument we should be doing during every holiday.
- [50:34]
A
That's really true. I think there's a desperate need. The underlying current is unity, which is something that when that is missing in a community, in a nation, it makes them very vulnerable and it makes them not feel like a people.
- [50:52]
B
Well, it's interesting cause Rabbi Jonathan Sacks wrote that. He says it's like the corollary to Haman saying the Jews are scattered and destroy, dispersed. He tells King Achashvarosh, these Jews, they're scattered, they're dispersed. And so this is saying, no, we're united and connected. We're so communally focused. We're not scattered and dispersed.
- [51:08]
A
And we're trying really hard. We're trying hard. And I like the idea that you don't just do things for people who are needy and you don't just do things for people who you know, but you do it for both. So we have the matanotia le evyonim, the gift for people who are needy. And we have these food packages which sometimes people go completely bonkers. I mean, I know families, you know, John grew up in a family where they would make hundreds and hundreds and they spent the entire day going all over Chicago with him, running in and out of the car, delivering food packages to every single person that the Poland family knew in Chicago.
- [51:47]
B
I can just see that image.
- [51:49]
A
Yes, completely. And there is something really lovely, really, that we're saying we're going to do both, right. And that everyone should be able to feast, everyone should be able to celebrate. And there is a real feeling of merriment. And look, there's also a lot of people say that you should drink and really enjoy drinking. And there's a famous quote of you should drink until you don't even know the difference between Mordecai and Haman. And so of course, it's somewhat controversial depending on what community you're in. But a lot of people take this as a very merry filled holiday in terms of enjoying, imbibing.
- [52:31]
B
Yeah.
- [52:32]
A
Partying and enjoying in that way. But I think that those are the things that are the sort of the framework of if you're thinking, if you're playing Family Feud and you have to figure out like what are the top five things that, that Jews actually traditionally do on the holiday of Purim. So now people know what those are.
- [52:49]
B
Well, but we didn't really get into one, which is the meal, the festive meal, the suda.
- [52:53]
A
The feast.
- [52:54]
B
Yes, the feast. So can you say something about that?
- [52:58]
A
So we are supposed to gather for a feast and we are supposed to sit with friends. Shouldn't be that I'm eating a hamentaschen by myself, which is one of the foods that Ashkenazi people especially really enjoy making, which is it makes means Haman's ears. And they're triangular cookies that are usually filled with something yummy, depending on who you are. Yummy is relative. So John really loves poppy seed hamantaschen. I would rather continue fasting, but sometimes people have apricot or chocolate hamantaschen, these little cookies with a yummy filling. And there is special grace after meals that you say at that feast where we include a paragraph about the miracle that happened, really, with the Jews not being wiped out and what Mordechai and Esther managed to do.
- [53:53]
B
How do you respond to the following characterization? Purim is our people's. The Jewish people's Halloween, because everyone gets dressed up in costumes, both for the Megillah reading and, you know, my kids go to the Jewish day school that they've been at for much of their lives. Every kid comes to school, the faculty comes. Everyone, including the woman who runs the entire school, everyone gets dressed up.
- [54:17]
A
Well, first of all, there is this. On the one hand, we could say, it's fun, it's exciting. When I was growing up, you dressed up as someone from the Purim story. So we had 105 esters and we had another 110 Mordechais. And, you know, there were always the cool people who felt that they had to dress up as, hey, men. I did that in seventh grade. I thought I was awesome. But then, as time passed. This is what I think you're talking about, is that people. Suddenly there's like a lot of spider mans and a lot of ballerinas. I was a ballerina one year, too, I must say.
- [54:56]
B
My sons used to dress up as NFL quarterbacks. But, you know, not really in the Purim story.
- [55:01]
A
No, in chapter five, I believe that, you know, there were definitely. I saw the Green Bay packers run
- [55:08]
B
by in the background, Patrick Mahomes.
- [55:11]
A
But I think that maybe it was an opportunity at some point for children who may not celebrate Halloween, for them to also have a holiday where they get to dress up as someone that they want and there's candy involved or treats involved. I mean, I wonder, you know, there's a little bit of a give and take and borrowing from within different cultures. And I don't necessarily think that that's at all. There's no judgment there. I think great, if Jewish kids and anyone who wants to celebrate Purim and embrace this idea of this costume idea, go for it. What I take from the costumes is there's a hiddenness, there's a maskedness to Purim.
- [55:57]
B
But say that. What's the hidden hiddenness?
- [55:59]
A
I'm glad you asked for me. Well, there's two issues. Remember at the beginning I said there's gonna be two secret, exciting things that are gonna happen that we're gonna take off the mask together. So for me, the first most powerful takeaway from Purim is this idea of stop dragging our feet, stop procrastinating. It's time to fulfill our potential. Because, remember, when When Mordechai says to Esther, here's the edict. You gotta go save us. And she says, I'm too scared. He doesn't say, oh, my. Whatever shall we do? He simply says to her, esti bubala, have you ever stopped to consider for this moment that maybe, just maybe, as you and I were talking about, that you are in this moment, for this very moment, that you are now the queen of the most powerful empire on the planet Royal for this exact purpose? And that is when her epiphany happens and she steps up to the plate and she saves us. And Purim teaches us that we all are going to have in our lives these Esther moments. We are all gonna have this. There is no coincidence, Dan, that you were born into your exact family, that you have had in your life the exact dynamics, whether challenging, complicated, or small, that have led you to exactly what you're doing right now, that you started doing this podcast and doing it in a different way starting on October 7th, that you started with partners like Elon Benatar. These are not coincidences. We are each in exactly the place that we should be for our ultimate purpose. And when we have these situations or missions that are presented to us, that are sometimes given to be massive, and sometimes they're going to feel entirely too big for us. But the issue is, we're not always going to have someone there unmasking it for us. We're not always going to have a Mordechai saying, bubele, sweetheart, it is your time to shine. And the challenge is discovering and unwrapping these moments, even if they're scary, especially when they're scared. And I think that what Purim reminds us is that the energy exists and is out there to recognize the hidden plans, the hidden plans for each of our unique paths. And what we have to do, all of us, is open our eyes wide to find out what each of ours is. And that is the unmasking. And that is not looking at Link as being Purim. Not looking at. Oh, no. There's no rhyme or reason to this. And what is my Esther moment? And your Esther moment can also change over time, but we need to discover that. And it's okay. I like when she gets scared because I think it's incredibly human. And I know that all of us, we feel like we missed the opportunity, but we didn't. It's okay. Hey, you could do it tomorrow, but do it well.
- [59:07]
B
There's also. Because God is not mentioned in this story, and yet you say God is there, but he's not there. He's explicitly not there, but he's sort of there in the background. We can get into a whole debate about that. But there is this enormous emphasis on human agency. Like it's on you. Yes, maybe you were put in this moment for this moment, but you've got to figure this out. Out. You can't look up and say, God, tell me what to do. Because guess what? In this, unlike the 23 other books, God's not in this one. So it's on you. Figure it out.
- [59:41]
A
Right. I mean, I think that that happens again. You know, I hesitate because I think a lot of us, all of us, struggle with the idea of God. I think that each of us has our own idea of what this idea of God is. Even when saying that can be disenfranchising to people who don't see the world that way. And I don't mean to do that. I think that how we walk through this universe of confusion, everyone has a different way of making that happen. But I think that the whole point of being here in this world, in this life, is figuring out how to create purpose with what we have been given. And sometimes you don't have exactly what you're saying, whether you don't have God or you don't have Mordechai. You don't have someone just giving you that virtual wake up slap that you need. We have to do it to ourselves. We have to actually say, what are my abilities and what am I gonna do with them and can I do it even though I'm scared?
- [60:42]
B
All right, Rachel, we will leave it there. That was, as always, a tour de force. And I know you're very, very, very busy these days.
- [60:50]
A
You too, Dan. I feel like you're. You're a busy guy.
- [60:54]
B
Well, I am busy. In fact, your standard for describing how busy you are these days, you said to me the other day, you're like, daniella, Daniela.
- [61:06]
A
I am. Dan. What are you going to dress up as for Purim?
- [61:10]
B
I don't have a costume yet, but I feel like the most popular costume this year. Coming back to what I talked about at the beginning is for boys and men across the Jewish diaspora is Jack Hughes, the star Jewish hockey player of the men's USA team. I think that is, like the coolest, gonna be the coolest Purim costume this year for boys. For Jewish boys is my prediction.
- [61:34]
A
Fair enough.
- [61:35]
B
So, Rachel, do I wish you a chag sameach?
- [61:37]
A
Of course. We all want that. What I really wish for everyone is that we all figure out how to open our eyes as wide as we can can and go find out what it is we're supposed to be doing with our unique plan.
- [61:49]
B
All right. And we will be together, Rachel. We'll be together in a few weeks in New York City at the Stryker center in April for a conversation. So I look forward to seeing you then. And we'll obviously speak, I'm sure many times between now and then.
- [62:03]
A
I look forward to it. And thank you for having me.
- [62:07]
B
Thanks. Foreign. That's our show for today. If you value the Call Me Back podcast and you want to support our mission, please subscribe to our weekly members only show, Inside Call Me Back. Inside, Call Me Back is where Nadavael, Amit Segal and I respond to challenging questions from listeners and have the conversations that typically occur after after the cameras stop rolling. To subscribe, please follow the link in the show notes or you can go to arc media.org that's arkmedia.org call me back is produced and edited by Lon Benatar. Arc Media's Executive producer is Adam James Levin Aretti. Our production manager is Brittany Cohn. Our community manager is Ava Wiener. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo Sound and video editing by Liquid Art Audio. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.