The Re-occupation of Gaza - with Nadav Eyal and Amit Segal

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Reoccupation of Gaza - with Nadav Eyal and Amit Segal"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
• Host/Author: Ark Media
• Description: Presenting the challenges and dilemmas facing Israelis to a global audience.
• Episode: The Reoccupation of Gaza - with Nadav Eyal and Amit Segal
• Release Date: August 7, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode delves into the contentious proposal by the Israeli government to reoccupy the Gaza Strip, featuring insights from ARC Media contributors Nadav Eyal and Amit Segal. Hosted by Dan Senor, the discussion centers around the strategic, humanitarian, and political ramifications of this plan.

2. Overview of the Current Situation

At the outset, Nadav Eyal outlines the Israeli government's dilemma: the Cabinet, led by Prime Minister Netanyahu, advocates for the complete conquest of Gaza to ensure the defeat of Hamas and the safe return of hostages. Contrarily, IDF Chief of Staff Eyal Zamir warns that such an operation could result in the deaths of hostages, suggesting a siege instead of outright occupation.

Notable Quote:

• Nadav Eyal (00:09): "Here is the dilemma. The government, the Cabinet, Prime Minister Netanyahu want to conquer the rest of Gaza Strip because the argument is that if you don't do it because you wait for the hostages, you will get neither the hostages nor defeating Hamas."

3. Government's Plan to Occupy Gaza

The Israeli government's accelerated plan to reoccupy Gaza emerges after the collapse of ceasefire hostage release talks on July 24. The proposed strategy involves evacuating Gaza City, providing humanitarian aid through international funding, and constructing facilities for evacuees in southern Gaza. The plan also includes establishing multiple food distribution centers to mitigate the humanitarian crisis.

Notable Quote:

• Amit Segal (01:25): "I'm not going to mince words here, Dan. I have never heard such extreme negative reactions to any plan that I've ever covered... as to the plan to somehow take over the entire Gaza Strip in the near future and have a military rule of the entire Gaza Strip."

4. IDF's Position and Opposition

IDF Chief of Staff Eyal Zamir opposes the full-scale occupation, advocating for a siege that targets Hamas strongholds without displacing the civilian population. Zamir fears that occupying Gaza City, the symbolic and strategic hub, would lead to increased casualties and international backlash. The IDF is reportedly considering resignations and has sought legal advice to ensure compliance with Israeli law and international conventions.

Notable Quote:

• Dan Senor (07:39): "The IDF does not want to do this, thinks it's a strategic mistake, thinks it would be tactically extremely challenging."

5. Internal Confrontation and Debates

A significant conflict exists between the Israeli government's Cabinet and the IDF leadership. The Cabinet perceives the occupation as the only viable path to end the conflict and secure hostages, while the IDF warns of the operational and ethical complexities involved. This discord reflects the broader national debate on the best course of action.

Notable Quote:

• Dan Senor (12:01): "These are two distinct levels. One of them is an army level, a defense level, and the other one is a more political, international level."

6. International Implications

The proposed reoccupation has severe implications for Israel's international standing. Insiders warn that the operation could damage Israel's relationships with global allies, undermine its political leverage, and exacerbate humanitarian crises in Gaza. The U.S. and other international actors are closely monitoring the situation, with discussions around potential funding and humanitarian aid.

Notable Quote:

• Dan Senor (07:39): "The war is damaging Israel's position internationally, how Israel's friends are telling that whatever it's going to achieve, it's not worth it in terms of the damages made to Israel's position in the world and with its friends globally."

7. Public Opinion in Israel

Public sentiment in Israel appears divided on the issue. Recent polling by the Jewish-Palestinian Policy Institute (JPPI) indicates that 46% of the Jewish population supports ending the war with Hamas still in power, while 45% favor the operation to conquer Gaza City. This polarization highlights the societal tensions surrounding the government's military strategies.

Notable Quote:

• Nadav Eyal (17:57): "46% of 4 ending the war with Hamas still in office, and 45% are for an operation to actually conquer the rest of Gaza City."

8. Possible Outcomes and Future Steps

The discussion explores potential scenarios, including the feasibility of separating Hamas from the civilian population and the effectiveness of international humanitarian aid in undermining Hamas's influence. The contributors speculate that without a clear and humane plan, the operation could lead to prolonged conflict, increased hostilities, and further humanitarian disasters.

Notable Quote:

• Nadav Eyal (14:27): "I think that when this ends in a few weeks, eight weeks, ten weeks, Israel will have to go on the Zamir's solution, which is to actually have a siege on the areas left by Israel to the Hamas and the population."

9. Conclusion

The episode underscores the complexity and high stakes of Israel's decision to reoccupy Gaza. Balancing military objectives with humanitarian concerns and international diplomacy presents a formidable challenge. The divergent views within the Israeli leadership reflect the broader uncertainty and the potential for significant repercussions both domestically and globally.

Notable Quote:

• Dan Senor (21:37): "The way that the Cabinet is presenting this or the Prime Minister is presenting this is as though there isn't any other option because Hamas has walked away from a deal... Hamas still sees this as part of the negotiations."

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This summary encapsulates the multifaceted debate surrounding Israel's proposed reoccupation of Gaza, highlighting the strategic disagreements, public opinion, and international considerations. For listeners seeking an in-depth analysis, the extended discussions and listener questions are available through the "Inside Call Me Back" members-only feed.

Transcript

[Dan Senor]

Foreign.

[Amit Segal]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[Nadaviel]

Here is the dilemma. The government, the Cabinet, Prime Minister Netanyahu want to conquer the rest of Gaza Strip because the argument is that if you don't do it because you wait for the hostages, you will get neither the hostages nor defeating Hamas. Whereas Eyal Zamir, the IDF Chief of Staff, says the hostages are going to get killed in this operation. So what we should do is, rather than occupying the area, having a siege.

[Dan Senor]

I'm not going to mince words here, Dan. I have never heard such extreme negative reactions to any plan that I've ever covered, you know, since I've been a journalist, as to the plan to somehow take over the entire Gaza Strip in the near future and have a military rule of the entire Gaza Strip. And because of that, there is a mega confrontation between the Chiefs of Staff and this Cabinet. So you know, this is a very. It's a very radical moment. It's a very radical moment.

[Amit Segal]

It is 8:30am on Thursday, August 7th here in New York City. It is 3:30pm on Thursday, august 7th in Israel as Israelis are processing news that a, quote, total conquest of Gaza will be brought to Israel's Cabinet for a vote and is expected to pass. One quick housekeeping note this is the first Members Only Inside Call Me Back episode, so if you're listening to this on our regular feed you you'll be getting the conversation with Nadava Nmeet on the latest news. But if you're an Inside Call Me Back subscriber, you should listen on the Members Only feed because there you will get an extended version of our Thursday episodes which includes a longer discussion as well as questions from our listeners. To those of you who have yet to subscribe to Inside callmeback, you can follow the link in the show notes. Now on to the news. The plan to reoccupy Gaza was accelerated from following the July 24 collapse of the Ceasefire hostage release talks. Israel and the US as well as Arab League governments, blame Hamas for the collapse of a possible deal. As far as we know, the new military plan begins with the evacuation of Gaza City, which is believed to hold about half the Gazan population and will include the construction of hospitals and camps for evacuees in southern Gaza. It is also expected to include an announcement by President Trump of considerable funding from the US and other countries for Gaza. IDF Chief of Staff Eyel Zamir and other military officials have reportedly warned about their concerns surrounding the risks of the implementation of this plan. I'm here with ARC Media contributor Amit Segal and Nadavael, also an ARC Media contributor, will join us during the conversation. Amit will welcome back. And welcome to the first episode of the Inside Call Me Back edition.

[Nadaviel]

Excitement in the air. Thanks, Dan.

[Amit Segal]

I hear everyone's, everyone's buzzing about it. Okay, so Amit, I want to dive into this dramatic development of the last 24 hours. What can you tell us about the plan to occupy Gaza, which the government will bring to a cabinet vote later today.

[Nadaviel]

So here's the controversy. Israel has recently completed the occupation of 75% of the Gaza Strip, but there are still 75% of the population in the other 25% of the territory which is Gaza City, the Moasi, the humanitarian area. And the third part is the refugee camps in central Gaza. Now here is the dilemma. The government, the cabinet, Prime Minister Netanyahu want to conquer the rest of Gaza Strip because the argument is that if you don't do it because you wait for the hostages, you will get neither the hostages nor defeating Hamas. Whereas Eyal Zamir, the IDF chief of staff, says the hostages are going to get killed in this operation. So what we should do is rather than occupying the area, having a siege, we will actually encircle those three areas without having the day to day fights with Hamas terrorists. No more casualties. And we can attack them from the air or specific invasions when we have something that we want. But we will operate. Pressure. Now, rumors had it that Zamir threatened to resign. I'm not sure this is the case, but I do think that it would lead to something in between and I think the solution would be, it's going to take for me 30 seconds to explain it. Occupying Gaza City. Gaza City is the hub, the symbol where the headquarters are. Every 99% of the pictures from Gaza is Gaza City. So it's like taking Moscow from, from Russia.

[Amit Segal]

But let me just stay on that because you talked about that in your newsletter on your It's Noon in Israel newsletter this morning. The symbolism, even in the eyes of Palestinians as Gaza City being the heart of Gaza. But hasn't Israel been in and out of Gaza City already?

[Nadaviel]

Only once at the beginning of the war. And it was just like driving through, I mean, I visited the Gaza Strip last week, so you can see that all the area that you see in front of you is reduced to ruins. Then when you see the eastern neighborhoods of Gaza City, you see that they are half standing by the coast. Gaza City is still standing. So the 70% of the buildings are still standing. The idea is to move the population to, to Central Gaza, from Gaza City to central Gaza, give or take 1 million Palestinians building their hospitals there because half of the hospitals in Gaza are in Gaza City and then invading the city of Gaza simultaneously. The United States of America would actually organize to actually have 16 food distribution centers rather than four at the rest of Gaza. So you take from Hamas Gaza City, and you take from Hamas the entire funding from the humanitarian aid, because the entire humanitarian aid would be provided by the American foundation ghf.

[Amit Segal]

Okay. And Nadaviel, another ARC media contributor, has joined as well. He just, just sort of slid into the conversation. Nadav, welcome. I'm going to jump right into a question for you. There seems to me two main challenges to this plan that we're hearing about. The burden on the idf, which by all accounts is exhausted and feeling overstretched. Getting closer and closer to the two year anniversary of this war and also the lives of the hostages and what this means, what this operations means for them. The way Amit just described it is on the path Israel was on, there was no path to get the hostages back because Hamas did not appear to be willing to negotiate, at least not negotiate in good faith. So there was no getting back the hostages on the path they were on. That doesn't mean that this is a clear path to getting the hostages back. So I want to talk about each of these. So what does this plan mean for the idf? And also I would say the position of the chief of Staff of Eyal Zamir.

[Dan Senor]

I'm not going to mince words here, Dan. I have never heard such extreme negative reactions to any plan that I've ever covered since I've been a journalist, as to the plan to somehow take over the entire Gaza Strip in the near future and have a military rule of the entire Gaza Strip. The type of negative responses that I'm getting, and I'm not talking about opposition figures, I'm not calling on Yair Lapid to ask what he thinks about this. Obviously he's against it. I'm talking within the Israeli defense apparatus. It's very obvious that the IDF does not want to do this, thinks it's a strategic mistake, thinks it would be tactically extremely challenging. And on a different level, that isn't a defense apparatus. I just had a conversation with a senior official very much involved in the negotiations right now as to this decision. And he talked about how the war is damaging Israel's position internationally, how Israel's friends are telling that whatever it's going to achieve, it's not worth it in terms of the damages made to Israel's position in the world and with its friends globally. I'm again not talking about those who criticize Israel anyhow. So these are two distinct levels. One of them is an army level, a defense level, and the other one is a more political, international level. And the people I'm speaking with are insiders. I've had a series of meetings with these kind of officials. They're extremely negative. Now, the idf, as Amit probably mentioned, is gonna present two plans. One of them is according to the command that it got from the Israeli cabinet to occupy the entire Gaza Strip. And the other one is another plan to actually lay a sort of a siege to Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip without really occupying population centers of Palestinians. Of course, the IDF is aiming for the second option, Dan, because they think it would be a gross mistake to go for a full time occupation. And they also think that that would probably lead to the deaths of hostages. This is the assessment within the IDF right now. And because of that, there's a mega confrontation between the chiefs of staff and this cabinet, specifically the chief of Staff, Eyal Zamir. You know, we're like dialogues in which the chief of staff tells the Prime Minister, why is your son attacking me? Online? These kind of conversations are being made in the cabinet room and the IDF is getting some legal advice saying what you can and cannot do as an army, just maintaining with Israeli law and the law of conflict what you can and cannot do. And I'll give you one example. Israel can definitely say to a local population, we're going to fight in this, in the street or town, and we want to make sure that you don't get hurt. So this is a temporary evacuation and you'll be able to return. But if the evacuation has a political reasoning behind it, the type that Smartrich and Benvir are pushing for, if the evacuation is supposed to lead to an immigration, even voluntary, quote, unquote, from the Gaza Strip, this would be a war crime. And the IDF has told the political level in Israel that it's not going to be part of any plan like that. And the IDF chiefs have ordered the IDF not to support and not to be part of any plan like that because it's against the Israeli law and against conventions that Israel is signed on. So, you know, this is a very, it's a very radical moment for Israel in the type of conversation that we're having. And you know, I'm bearing no good news in that regard. It's a solemn moment and it's an extremely conflicted Moment in which many of the insiders I'm speaking with are extremely hesitant as to what Netanyahu is trying to push the cabinet to decide. Now, I have to say, whether or not it's actually gonna happen, that's a different story.

[Amit Segal]

Well, that was gonna be my next question, because as we've talked about on this podcast, and I've heard many experts say, what Hamas cares about most is who is in control of Gaza. It completely subordinates other issues, like when there are prisoner exchanges, prisoner releases, negotiations over getting Palestinian prisoners out of Israeli prisons. That's always something that's done at the end of the negotiations. It's not the priority. Or what Hamas most values and most prioritizes is getting the IDF out of Gaza and not having Israel in control of the land of Gaza and of Gazan Palestinians. So could it be that this plan, whether it goes through its full scope as it's been laid out or not, is sending a message to Hamas that unless there's a deal, unless hostages start getting released, the direction of travel is only going in one direction, and that's the direction that you most fear.

[Nadaviel]

So I must say that at this phase of the war, I'm quite wary of trying to convince Hamas to do something. I think that Hamas, as I was told by a very senior officer in the army last week in Gaza, it's not that it's a body that looks to do something positive for itself, but only to damage you. And it doesn't have. It's not an entity. So even if you kill each and every commander in Hamas, which you, give or take, did over the last 22 months, at the end of the day, there is no one to actually surrender because they don't have this feature in the system. And that's why, in my opinion, the only way to defeat Hamas is to actually separate Hamas from the population. Now, there has been various attempts to do it. Now the effort focuses on relying heavily on American humanitarian aid. $1 billion. And then the assumption is that it would actually cut Hamas's lifeline, which was the Unitarian aid. And if you take Gaza City, it might actually break Hamas as an entity. To be honest, I think that when this ends in a few weeks, eight weeks, ten weeks, Israel will have to go on the Zamir's solution, which is to actually have a siege on the areas left by Israel to the. To the Hamas and the. To Hamas and the population.

[Dan Senor]

I don't think that you can separate the population from Hamas simply because Hamas is so entrenched within the population.

[Nadaviel]

Hamas is a government as a regime.

[Dan Senor]

I mean, well, it doesn't really. It exists as a guerrilla organization. I can see the logic in what Amit presented. I think that we're way past that. And let me explain why. For instance, in a plan, which is the basis for the thinking in the Prime Minister's office, and I published details of that plan, I saw the document itself. The document itself is saying that after Israel takes the Gaza City, it will need to clear the humanitarian city, quote, unquote, humanitarian camp that Israel intends to build. Of who? Of Hamas. Because it was obvious to the people who were writing the program to the Prime Minister's office, the program that the military secretary of the Prime Minister, Roman Goffman, is handling, that at a certain point, Hamas will infiltrate also the humanitarian areas, because it's everywhere, because it's part of the population. It's supported by the population. Now, in terms of government, how much of a government does it exist? I think that we're trying to rationalize here something that, to me, is very hard to rationalize. And let me explain why Israel is. And I'm hearing what Amit is saying on tv, I'm seeing what we're writing. I think there is a consensus about this. Israel is in such a difficult condition globally that the very idea that at a certain point, it will start occupying the center of the Gaza Strip and the population centers there. With the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip, you don't want to call it famine. You want to call it hunger. You don't want to call it hunger. You want to call it something else. There is a humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip. The thinking that Israel has enough political leverage internationally, has enough, you know, stamina in its defense forces to actually go through this plan. Right now, there isn't a plan. As far as I know right now, there is no plan to take the entire Gaza Strip, to take care of the population. What the US Administration is speaking about. It will take time until these things will actually happen. And the GHF isn't such a bright success to begin with. My guess is that the IDF will say, look, you're ordering us to do something we don't want to do. But you're the government. We're the army. Okay? Now give us some time to plan it. We need to plan ahead. And this will buy some time before implementing something that no one that I know thinks is a good idea, to say the least. And the expressions people are using with me is a catastrophe if Israel goes through this plan now. But they might be Wrong. Okay. I don't know. But they're talking about a catastrophe in terms of defense, in terms of Israel's standing in the world, and of course, the deaths of hostages, which are the reason, or at least one reason of two to this war.

[Amit Segal]

Okay, Amit, I know you've got to go. In a moment. Just real quick, before you go, what kind of support does this plan have in Israeli society right now? I know there's not immediate polling on it, but obviously you can get a sense for what's going on.

[Nadaviel]

Well, actually, there is a fresh one, especially for you.

[Amit Segal]

Oh.

[Nadaviel]

It was conducted by the jppi, an independent institution, and it says exactly this within the Jewish population. Israel is a democracy with Arab voters as well. But I think when it comes to questions of peace and war, it's mainly about the Jewish population. It's exactly tied. 46% of 4 ending the war with Hamas still in office, and 45% are for an operation to actually conquer the rest of Gaza City. So I would say the right wing is for it and the center left is against it. This is, in my opinion, the way to depict it. Now, here is the crucial question, and I fully agree with Nadav that Hamas is here to stay. But what is the conclusion out of it? One conclusion might be, let's end the war, take the hostages, and then we will defeat Hamas. Let's fight another day. I'm not sure this is the case, and we talked about it various times. The other option is to try and weaken Hamas as time passes. Taking Gaza, providing humanitarian aid without those infamous UN trucks robbed by Hamas and then sold in a high price for the population, hoping that this process would lead in a few months for the fate of Hamas.

[Amit Segal]

Nadav had some Internet connection problems, so he had to drop. But I wanted to ask him the same question that I asked Amit about support for this plan within Israeli society. So I'll send him this question and he'll send us the answer. Nadav.

[Dan Senor]

So as to the support of the Israeli public in such an operation, right now the majority of the Israeli public, and by majority, I mean over 70%, are saying they would rather have an end to the war and getting the hostages back home than continuing the fight against Hamas. If you even narrow it down and you ask them, you tell them that would mean that Hamas would control the Gaza Strip. You still get more than 50% of Israelis saying the same. And this is before the warnings of the Israeli defense apparatus. This is without taking into account the assessment of the IDF that hostages will get hurt. And probably some of them or more will die as a result of an IDF operation to occupy the entire Gaza Strip. But we need to say another something that's important. The way that the Cabinet is presenting this or the Prime Minister is presenting this is as though there isn't any other option because Hamas has walked away from a deal. And the answer that the mediators are giving is that Hamas did drift away from a deal, seeing Israel's weakness in the international stage, trying to use that weakness. On the other hand, they were saying there is still a deal to be made. It's just not the deal that Israel is willing to make. That means that Hamas says it will never disarmed. It said that in response to Steve Witkoff's statements last week. I'm not saying this in order to pitch for such a deal specifically, but to present it as though Hamas has decided that there will be no deal to end the war, no ceasefire. That's not the case. Hamas still sees this as part of the negotiations. And probably they see Israel's decisions or the Cabinet suggestion as sort of an attempt by the Israelis to threaten them back to the negotiating table in better terms.

[Amit Segal]

Okay, Amit, I want to ask you one operational question before you have to drop. Between 1967 and 2005, when Gaza was a normal functioning territory, Gaza lies today in complete ruins. As I've said here on the podcast, the place looks like Stalingrad. What would it mean for Israel to become the governing force under such circumstances? Like Israel comes in there and it just takes this place that is more or less flattened and does what Israel.

[Nadaviel]

Has no intention in the, even under the Netanyahu Smotish Ben Gavriel government to actually take over Gaza Strip. The idea that I hear is to annex the perimeter, the areas that are near the kibbutz and the villages that were attacked on October 7th for security reasons. And the rest of the areas are going to be handed over to an international sort of government, but you know, like a mandate. A mandate would be a more accurate term by the Americans, the Emirates, Egypt, etc. This is the main idea. And then Israel doesn't have the power or the will to actually conquer this area. One of the interesting idea that I heard was to lease, to actually lease the strip to the US So Israel would annex it and immediately would lease it to 99 years like in the in Hong Kong to say. I'm not sure it's quite feasible, but the main idea is that Israel is not going to control the lives of 2 million Palestinians.

[Amit Segal]

And this is an idea coming out of Jerusalem or coming out of Washington.

[Nadaviel]

You know that in those two administrations you never know who invented the idea and who adopted it. For instance, who made the idea of B2S bombing Iran's nuclear facilities? What is Ron Dermer or Marco Rubio?

[Amit Segal]

Okay, Amit, we'll let you go. I know you've got a heart out. We will. We will see you soon.

[Nadaviel]

Thank you so much.

[Amit Segal]

That's all for our regular Call Me Back feed, but the rest of the episode continues on Inside Call Me Back, where I also answer your questions. One listener, for example, asked how alarmed should we be about the rise of right wing anti Semitism Foreign if you value the Call Me Back podcast and you want to support our mission, please subscribe to our weekly members only show, Inside Call Me Back. Inside Call Me Back is where Nadavayal, Amit, Segal and I respond to challenging questions from listeners and have the conversations that typically happen at after the cameras stop rolling. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Ilan Benatar. ARC Media's executive producer is Adam James Levin Aretti sound and video editing by Martin Huergo and Mariangulis Burgos. Our director of operations is Maya Rockoff, research by Gabe Silverstein. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.