Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
Episode: The Story of American Antizionism (Jan 29, 2026)
Host: Dan Senor
Guest: Shaul Kelner, Professor of Jewish Studies and Sociology at Vanderbilt University

In this episode, Dan Senor talks with Shaul Kelner about the history, evolution, and current expressions of anti-Zionism, particularly how these developments have unfolded in the U.S. in recent years. The conversation delves into the Soviet origins of anti-Zionist ideology, the distinctions (and conflations) with antisemitism, the role of academia and social movements, and Jewish communal responses—particularly among American Jews. The episode seeks to illuminate the complexities behind the seeming surge in anti-Zionist sentiment post-October 7, 2023, providing deeper historical context and examining contemporary cultural and institutional dynamics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Definitions of Anti-Zionism

• Soviet Roots:
  • Shaul Kelner: Anti-Zionism as we see it now originated as a Soviet tool for persecuting Jews in the 20th century. (08:03)
  • The Soviets didn’t want to justify their actions using Nazi-like racist language. They labeled their repression as anti-Zionism, differentiating it from antisemitism. (08:31)
  • Suppression included shutting down synagogues, banning Hebrew, restricting Jewish cultural life. (08:36)

"They needed another justification. One of them was they were fighting Zionist imperialism. Essentially this was the label under which Soviet Jews have been persecuted for decades."
— Shaul Kelner (08:03)

• Distinct from American Perceptions:
  • Most American Jews view antisemitism as right-wing hate rooted in Nazi ideology. The Soviet version was “anti-racist” but still deeply anti-Jewish, just under another label. (11:48)

2. Transmission to the West & Modern Manifestations

• Spread of Soviet Anti-Zionist Ideology:

  • The Soviets sought to undermine U.S.-Israel relations and exported anti-Zionist memes and language through the New Left into left-wing political spaces in the West. (14:59)
  • The Cold War association of anti-Zionism with the enemy kept it somewhat in check. After the Cold War, the ideas persisted and were repackaged domestically in left-leaning activist circles. (14:59)

• Recent Escalations:

  • The mainstreaming of anti-Zionism in U.S. politics and institutions post-October 7th, 2023, surprised many American Jews, even if the groundwork had been laid over decades. (16:19)
  • Outbreaks of violence against synagogues across the globe have been labeled anti-Zionism rather than antisemitism, leading to confusion and downplaying the severity of incidents. (18:43–20:02)

"Anti Zionism is about a treatment of Jews in the countries where anti Zionism is happening... torching of synagogues... graffiti on the synagogues... this is a synagogue in the States. It's affecting Jews here."
— Shaul Kelner (20:02)

3. Academic Monocultures and Institutionalization

• Academic Legitimacy:
  • Anti-Zionism in U.S. academia is not fringe; it’s institutionally and intellectually mainstreamed, especially on the left, under the guise of legitimate criticism of Israel. (21:20)
  • Right-wing antisemitism would be laughed out of academia, but left-wing anti-Zionist activism is accepted and builds institutional power. (21:20–23:30)

"They're opposed to Israel, they're anti Zionist for whatever reasons they will say that leads them... But it's not just a personal position that will then become a resolution at an academic association and it's going to get institutionalized."
— Shaul Kelner (23:38)

• How Did It Happen?
  • It stems from ideological monoculture—academia hires “in its own image,” leading to left-driven institutional takeovers and an environment where dissenting views cannot easily organize or resist. (23:30–25:46)

4. Ideological Coalitions: Marxist and Islamist Alliances

• Overlap & Alliances:
  • Marxist and Islamist rationales for anti-Zionism differ, but alliances form in opposition to Jewish self-determination.
  • Most academics are ideologically leftist (Marxist); Islamists then leverage that framework for their own political goals. (26:43–27:34)

“The Marxist antisemitism is quite useful to the Muslim Brotherhood worldview.”—Dan Senor (27:30)

5. American Jewish Responses—Ignorance and Privilege

• Lack of Education:
  • American Jews do not typically learn about Soviet or Islamist anti-Zionism/persecution, only Nazi antisemitism. This lack of knowledge leads some Jewish young people to embrace anti-Zionist rhetoric, not understanding its anti-Jewish historical baggage. (28:10)

“If we had taught even just a fraction of Soviet anti Zionism and Islamist anti Zionism that we taught about Nazi antisemitism, they might have that same reaction [against it].”
— Shaul Kelner (28:10)

• Nostalgia and Movement Culture:
  • Many young activists are “along for the ride”—they are caught up in the culture and sense of belonging, without understanding the depth or danger of the movement.
  • Encampments and protests provide an in-person community, which is appealing especially after pandemic-era isolation. (36:14–36:43)

6. The Problem of Labels and Definitions

• Debating Definitions Distracts from Realities:
  • Linguistic and label debates (antisemitism vs. anti-Zionism) serve to distract Jews from addressing the actual behaviors directed against them. (32:39)

“We're being baited into having linguistic debates about what should we label the way that we're being treated... I prefer to focus on what the actions are rather than trying to figure out what the labels are...”
— Shaul Kelner (32:39)

• On Criticism of Israel vs. Anti-Zionism:
  • Criticizing government policy is legitimate; denying Jewish rights to self-determination is fundamentally different and should not be conflated. (35:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On American ignorance:

  “What are they living under a rock? ... The Israeli Palestinian conflict has been in the news, thoroughly covered more than any other conflict in the world...”
  — Shaul Kelner (29:45)

• On American Jewish exceptionalism:

  “It's a function of American privilege... so secure in their position as Jews in America... they have not been able to empathize ... with Jews... anywhere else in the world.”
  — Shaul Kelner (30:13)

• On movement-building success:

  “You create a movement culture that will engage and make people feel good about what they're doing and then people turn out and that becomes then a community for people.”
  — Shaul Kelner (36:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Soviet Origins of Anti-Zionism – 08:03
• Suppression of Jewish Life in the USSR – 08:36
• Differences in American vs. Soviet Antisemitism – 11:48
• Anti-Zionist Libels Migrate West – 14:59
• 2000 Durban Conference as Warning Sign – 16:42
• Global Synagogue Attacks Since October 7 – 18:43
• Campus and Academic Institutionalization – 21:20; 23:30
• Marxist/Islamist Anti-Zionist Alliance – 26:43
• Jewish American Privilege and Ignorance – 28:10; 30:13
• Debates over Language and Labels – 32:39
• Criticism of Israel vs. Anti-Zionism – 35:27
• Movement Culture and Nostalgia – 36:14
• Should Jews Debate Labels? – 38:07

Conclusion

This episode presents a rich, historically grounded view of anti-Zionism’s roots, how its forms have shifted across time and continents, and why so many in the Jewish community—and especially academia—struggle to respond effectively today. Guest Shaul Kelner urges listeners to move beyond debates around labels and instead confront the behaviors and ideologies targeting Jews under whatever name. He calls for renewed education—especially about Soviet and Islamist anti-Zionism—and a sober reckoning with how American privilege and ignorance have left many Jews, particularly young ones, vulnerable to aligning with movements that carry a dark history for Jewish communities.

Recommended action for listeners:

• Learn and teach the forgotten histories of anti-Zionism
• Recognize and resist linguistic distractions—focus on actions, not just terms
• Understand the dangers of institutional monocultures and movement-building tactics
• Criticize Israeli government policy if needed, but do not mistakenly conflate it with denying Jewish self-determination