Podcast Summary: "The Tragic End of the Bibas Story - with Matti Friedman"

Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
Host: Ark Media
Episode Release Date: February 20, 2025
Guest: Mati Friedman
Duration: Approximately 34 minutes

Introduction

In this poignant episode of Call Me Back, host Dan Senor engages in a heartfelt and in-depth conversation with Mati Friedman, a regular contributor based in Jerusalem. The discussion centers around the tragic return of the bodies of the Bibas family—Sherry Bibas and her two young sons, Ariel and Kfir—a harrowing event that has left Israeli society reeling.

Background of the Bibas Family

Matti Friedman opens the discussion by providing a detailed account of the Bibas family, emphasizing their personal identities beyond being mere symbols in the conflict.

[00:00] Mati Friedman: "There was always this possibility that this was a trick of some kind. But I think more than anything else, it was an unwillingness to accept that this family had been killed because we were intimately familiar with their faces."

Friedman underscores that the Bibas family members were not intended to represent any political ideology but were ordinary individuals caught in extraordinary circumstances. Oded Lifshitz, Sherry Bibas, and their children Ariel (4 years old) and Kfir (9 months old) were residents of Kibbutz Ni Oz, one of the hardest-hit communities during the October 7, 2023 attacks. Oded, an 83-year-old former journalist and left-wing activist, had a long history of advocating for Palestinian rights, adding a layer of tragic irony to their fate.

The Ceremony of Returning Bodies

Dan Senor describes the harrowing ceremony in which the bodies of the Bibas family were returned, marking a dark day for Israel.

[04:47] Mati Friedman: "It's the first time that Hamas has returned bodies as part of a hostage exchange. So it's a new kind of image, and it's a very dark day here in Israel."

Unlike previous hostage releases that ended with reunions in hospitals, today’s ceremony involved the delivery of coffins to forensic centers, symbolizing the irrevocable loss and deepening grief within Israeli society.

Public Reaction and Symbolism

The episode delves into how the Bibas family has become a potent symbol both within Israel and among Jews in the Diaspora.

[10:36] Mati Friedman: "For many people, the faces or faces that they zoomed in on or that they focused on or that they tried to hold in their head were the faces of these kind of beautiful redheaded kids, Ariel and Kfir Bibas."

For Israelis, the image of Sherry Bibas and her children epitomizes the cruelty and barbarism of Hamas, while for Jews abroad, it resonates as a symbol of anti-Semitism and unfathomable hatred.

Impact on Diaspora Jewry

Dan Senor highlights the profound effect on Jews outside Israel, who struggle to reconcile their daily interactions with the hostile sentiments reflected in actions like the desecration of Bibas family posters.

[13:21] Dan Senor: "Seth Mandel... writes... Kfir became a symbol because he's the answer to every relevant question about this conflict."

The desecration of posters featuring Ariel and Kfir starkly contrasts with the values of assimilation and coexistence many Diaspora Jews uphold, creating a deep-seated fear and alienation.

Psychological and Societal Impact

Matti Friedman discusses the broader psychological ramifications for Israeli society, particularly for children who are increasingly exposed to such tragedies.

[22:36] Mati Friedman: "There's just no way to protect your children from it... And my kids knew personal victims... So being a kid in Israel is complicated."

The ongoing conflict has permeated the everyday lives of Israeli children, fostering an environment of fear, sorrow, and resilience.

Future Implications and Israeli Public Sentiment

The conversation shifts to the potential long-term effects of the Bibas tragedy on Israeli policy and public sentiment.

[25:32] Mati Friedman: "People tend to prefer the second option... People are willing to do a lot, almost anything, to get live hostages back... So I'm not sure that what happened today will have a dramatic impact on what was going to happen anyway."

Despite the heartbreak, the primary focus remains on securing the safe return of hostages, even at the cost of releasing individuals deemed adversaries.

The Role of Perception in Warfare

Friedman emphasizes the ongoing battle for public perception, noting how Hamas leverages media and imagery to project victories despite their actual weakening stance.

[30:48] Mati Friedman: "When you tune into the live feed... someone is very smart about image... if we keep our gaze fixed on reality, there's no question in this war... who's actually winning."

He argues that the true victories lie in Israel’s strategic successes, such as diminishing Hamas's capabilities and strengthening Israel's position in the Middle East, even as adversaries attempt to claim narrative victories through orchestrated images.

Concluding Remarks

In his final thoughts, Friedman reflects on the enduring impact of the Bibas family's tragedy on Israeli society and future generations.

[31:05] Mati Friedman: "This is going to have an effect on our children, and we have to hope that they get through it as best they can."

He underscores that the events of October 7th and the subsequent tragedies are not fleeting—they represent a seismic shift in Israeli consciousness and will irrevocably shape the nation's identity and outlook.

Notable Quotes

• Matti Friedman [00:00]: "There was always this possibility that this was a trick of some kind... we knew those two kids."

• Matti Friedman [04:47]: "It's the first time that Hamas has returned bodies as part of a hostage exchange... a very dark day here in Israel."

• Dan Senor [13:21]: "Kfir became a symbol because he's the answer to every relevant question about this conflict."

• Matti Friedman [22:36]: "There's just no way to protect your children from it... being a kid in Israel is complicated."

• Matti Friedman [30:48]: "There's no question who's actually winning."

• Matti Friedman [31:05]: "This is going to have an effect on our children... we have to hope that they get through it as best they can."

Conclusion

This episode of Call Me Back provides a deeply moving and comprehensive exploration of the Bibas family's tragic fate, situating it within the broader context of Israeli society and the ongoing conflict with Hamas. Through Mati Friedman's insightful commentary, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the personal and societal impacts of such events, as well as the enduring resilience and challenges faced by Israelis both at home and in the Diaspora.