Podcast Summary: "Toga or Torah"

Podcast: Call Me Back – with Dan Senor
Guest: Rachel Goldberg-Polin
Date: December 8, 2025
Theme: Exploring Hanukkah’s historical and modern meaning, the dilemmas facing Jewish identity today, and what the holiday’s lessons mean for Israelis and Diaspora Jews.

Episode Overview

In this rich and timely conversation, Dan Senor and Jewish educator Rachel Goldberg-Polin dive into the Hanukkah story and draw parallels to contemporary Jewish identity, community dilemmas, and the urgent challenges facing Jews in Israel and the Diaspora. With Hanukkah approaching, they chart the festival’s deep historical roots, its evolving meaning, Jewish pride, and the complex balancing act of maintaining Jewish distinctiveness amid outside pressure—both in antiquity and today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hanukkah’s Historical Context: Hellenism and Jewish Response

• [08:43–24:40]
  Rachel takes listeners back to 332 BCE, recounting Alexander the Great’s arrival in the land of Israel. She describes the era’s Hellenization, when Greek culture swept through the region, influencing everything from language and architecture to philosophy and daily life.
  • The Jewish population responded in three ways:
    • Full Assimilation (Hellenists)
    • Full Rejection (Zealots/Maccabees)
    • The Vast In-Between: "Jews who have a foot in both worlds, they have Hellenized, they have modernized and they have Shabbat dinner and they keep a kosher home and they send their kids to Hebrew school. They need to finally take a stand..." (Rachel Goldberg-Polin, [00:09])
• Antiochus IV's crackdown in 167 BCE ushered in religious persecution, banning Jewish practice and forcing Jews to choose between assimilation (the “toga” and Greek culture) and holding fast to tradition (the “Torah”).

2. First Religious Persecution and Martyrdom

• [19:08–21:28] Rachel notes this was the first time in Jewish history that persecution was about religion itself, not just territory or sovereignty.
  • "We're not trying to eliminate you as people. No, just religion. We want to get rid of your religion. You can live. Just don't do those things you're doing that make you, you." (Rachel Goldberg-Polin, [20:08])
• The Maccabees emerge and, against overwhelming odds, lead an uprising against the Seleucid Greeks.

3. Miracle Narratives: Military Victory & Enduring Light

• [24:37–26:53] Hanukkah is twofold:

  • The improbable military victory ("the few against the many")
  • The miracle of the menorah oil: "One tiny little...cruise of oil with the seal on top...was enough to last for one day of lighting...And it takes eight days to purify and create new oil. And lo and behold, that one little cruise kept lit for the next eight." (Rachel Goldberg-Polin, [23:56])

• Liturgy emphasizes different miracles: Prayer books focus on the military salvation, while Talmudic sources highlight the endurance of the menorah's light.

4. Evolving Symbolism & Modern Relevance

• [27:58–35:22]

  • Hanukkah as "Jewish Pride Week":

    • Rambam (Maimonides) emphasized the commandment of pirsumei nisa—publicizing the Hanukkah miracle.
    • The act of displaying the menorah is a "public display of affection" for Jewishness, uniquely meant to be done publicly, not in private.
      • "We are trying to do a public display of affection. And therefore, the Rambam explains, you light them in the evening...either in a window or in a doorway...We're saying, we're here, we're Jews. Get used to it." (Rachel Goldberg-Polin, [29:15])

  • Contrast with Other Jewish Holidays:

    • Unlike most holidays, Hanukkah doesn't require synagogue attendance, fasting, or withdrawal from civic life. Instead, it commands Jews to be publicly visible as Jews.

5. The Struggle of Jewish Identity—Then and Now

• [36:00–44:13]
  • Rachel repeatedly bridges past and present:
    • Most Jews today, like then, are caught "in the middle," not extremists but balancing tradition and modernity.
    • "Struggling means you're grappling, you're thinking, you're digesting, you're being alive." (Rachel Goldberg-Polin, [41:07])
    • The essence of Hanukkah is being forced to answer: Where do I draw the line? What do I stand for?
  • Dan and Rachel reflect on growing anti-Semitism in the Diaspora, demanding Jews define themselves publicly and choose between assimilation and identity. Dating the urgency to recent years’ events, especially after October 7th, 2023 ([42:27–44:13])

6. Diaspora vs. Israeli Experience

• [44:13–46:27]
  • Israelis face existential threats; Diaspora Jews are being pressured to drop Jewish distinctiveness in the public sphere.
    • "For Jews in the Diaspora...they're fine for us to be around. They just don't want us being Jews... As long as we bring all that, they're like, no, no, no, that we don't want. But otherwise you can hang around." (Dan Senor, [44:49])
  • The past two years have linked all Jews—even those previously unengaged with Israel—into the broader Jewish story.

7. Internal Jewish Polarization

• [46:27–48:02]
  • Hanukkah’s origins arose amid internal Jewish debate and polarization over how much to adapt or resist Hellenism—a dynamic still playing out in Jewish communities today.

8. Counting and Jewish Memory

• [48:02–51:55]
  • Rachel, who counts each day since October 7th for the remaining hostages, connects Hanukkah’s counting of nights with broader Jewish themes of accountability and memory:
    • “I’m wearing this [tape with a day number]...it also reminds me who I am and that the world’s not going to change...Judaism really is interesting in its obsession with counting.” ([49:21])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [00:09] – “You actually have to decide. Do you take a toga and a scoop of spanakopita or do you take a Torah and a scoop of schmaltz? You need to decide who you are.”
  – Rachel Goldberg-Polin (Reframing assimilation vs. tradition)

• [20:08] – “We're not trying to eliminate you as people. No, just religion. We want to get rid of your religion. You can live. Just don't do those things you're doing that make you you.”
  – Rachel Goldberg-Polin (Defining ancient religious persecution)

• [29:15] – “We're saying, we're here, we're Jews. Get used to it. That's what I think this holiday is about.”
  – Rachel Goldberg-Polin (On Hanukkah’s public nature)

• [41:07] – “Struggling means you're grappling, you're thinking, you're digesting, you're being alive.”
  – Rachel Goldberg-Polin (On grappling with Jewish identity)

• [44:49] – “For Jews in the Diaspora... they just don't want us being Jews... As long as we bring all that, they're like, no, no, no, that we don't want. But otherwise you can hang around.”
  – Dan Senor (On assimilationist pressure today)

• [49:21] – “I’m wearing this [tape with a day number]...it reminds me who I am and that the world’s not going to change...Judaism really is interesting in its obsession with counting.”
  – Rachel Goldberg-Polin (Accounting for the missing, the miracles, and Jewish continuity)

Segment Timestamps

• Introduction & Current Events: [00:56–04:38]
• The Hanukkah Backstory - Alexander the Great to Antiochus: [08:43–19:08]
• Religious Persecution and Maccabean Revolt: [19:08–24:37]
• The Two Miracles (Military and Oil): [24:37–26:53]
• Hanukkah’s Rituals and Evolving Meaning: [27:58–35:37]
• Jewish Identity Struggles—Historical Parallels: [36:00–44:13]
• Diaspora vs. Israeli Jewish Experience: [44:13–46:27]
• Internal Community Polarization: [46:27–48:02]
• Counting, Memory, and Remaining Hostages: [48:02–51:55]
• Modern Hanukkah: Luckiest and Most Watered Down Holiday: [51:55–54:42]
• Closing Blessings & Final Thoughts: [54:42–55:54]

Final Thoughts—Hope and Empowerment

• [54:51] – “The essential power of the tiny... The Hasidic masters always talk about this majestic idea of how a tiny light, a tiny group, one tiny soul, one tiny person even can actually affect the entire world. And we have seen it and we know it. And now go be it.”
  – Rachel Goldberg-Polin (A call for individual and communal action)

Takeaways for Those Who Haven’t Listened

• The Hanukkah story is fundamentally about identity, pride, and setting boundaries—forced repeatedly in history to answer: Will we stand up as Jews, publicly and privately, even when pressured to hide or assimilate?
• The ancient dilemmas mirror those today—Jews grappling with assimilation, external hostility, and internal division.
• Lighting Hanukkah candles is a ritual of public affirmation: "We are here, we belong, we are proud." This resonates with urgent conversations about Jewish community and security, whether in Israel or the Jewish Diaspora.
• Amid darkness—historical or present—the lesson is to become that "tiny light" with outsized impact.

Happy Hanukkah!
Chag Sameach from Dan, Rachel, and the Call Me Back podcast team.