Podcast Summary
Call Me Back – with Dan Senor
Episode: Uncovered: Sinwar's 10/7 Masterplan – with Ronen Bergman
Date: October 23, 2025
Guests: Ronen Bergman (journalist, author, expert on intelligence and terrorism)
Hosts: Dan Senor, Ilan Benatar
Overview
This episode delivers an in-depth investigation into the masterminding of the October 7th Hamas attack against Israel, focusing on a recently discovered six-page handwritten memo attributed to Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. Veteran journalist Ronen Bergman joins to discuss the new findings, how Hamas meticulously planned its brutal assault, the psychological objectives behind the atrocities, and the way internal Hamas communications undermine the organization's claims of spontaneity. The conversation also explores the strategic failures and consequences of Sinwar's plan—and what these mean for Israel, the region, and international perceptions.
Listener advisory: Contains discussions of extreme violence and disturbing events as detailed in Hamas’s internal planning documents.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Sinwar Memo and Its Discovery
- Discovery: The most significant historical find—a six-page, handwritten memo by Yahya Sinwar, dated August 2022—was recovered by Israeli forces in a tunnel under the American hospital in Khan Younis (07:57).
- Found during a raid in which Sinwar's brother was killed.
- Memo identified via handwriting analysis by Israeli and forensic experts (12:45).
- Significance: First direct evidence tying supreme-level orders to specific atrocities on October 7th.
- “This document, the Sinwar written memo, is the first identification of the order itself coming from the supreme commander of Hamas…” – Ronen Bergman (08:18).
2. Hamas’s Organizational Professionalization
- Transformation: Since disengagement from Gaza, especially post-Sinwar's 2011 release, Hamas evolved from a ragtag militia to a highly organized, almost state-like military force (09:50).
- Obsessive Documentation: “I have never seen an organization that is so obsessive with writing documents, reports, memos, minutes, protocols… For everything, they produce an Excel sheet.” – Ronen Bergman (10:39).
- Intelligence Tactics: Israeli troops recovered 80 petabytes of Hamas documentation—far surpassing Al-Qaeda archives (11:25).
3. Content and Purpose of Sinwar’s Orders
- Directives: Sinwar instructed that operations must create “horrific images” designed to strike mortal fear into Israelis and specified burning entire neighborhoods and kibbutzim, with fuel and diesel, while broadcasting the images (14:09).
- “Five or even 10 images will instill mortal fear in them [Israelis].” – (14:09)
- Specifics included decapitation, mutilation, and video documentation for social media impact.
- Broadcasting Brutality: Orders included not only carrying out acts of extreme violence but ensuring these acts be recorded and disseminated (15:33).
4. Implementation on October 7th: Intercepted Communications
- Execution: Israeli intelligence intercepted Hamas commanders giving real-time orders to burn, kill, and film atrocities (15:38).
- “The commanders are telling them, burn this or behead civilians or soldiers and document, do this on video…” – Ronen Bergman (15:38)
- Not Improvisational: Contrary to perception of spontaneous savagery, intercepted commands and pre-written memos show systematic, premeditated actions (17:31).
- “Things are very, very clear, premeditated, preplanned and they are following the plan.” – Ronen Bergman (18:00)
5. Sinwar’s Strategic Objectives
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Intended Outcomes: Three main goals outlined (20:42):
- Instilling mass terror and breaking Israeli self-confidence: “To create some kind of a collective shell shock… even if their home is not by the Gaza Strip.”
- Inciting Israeli Arabs and West Bank Palestinians to rise up, as seen partially in 2021’s riots.
- Convincing Iran and Hezbollah (the “Axis of Resistance”) to enter the war and create a wide regional conflict.
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Quote: “Our goal is to eradicate the state of Israel… If we are able to convince the [Axis] to join us, we might be able to destroy the Jewish state or at least withdraw it decades to the past.” – Ronen Bergman paraphrasing Sinwar (23:00–24:00)
6. Failures and Miscalculations
- Failed Objectives: Attempts to trigger mass uprisings in Israel and the West Bank, or full Hezbollah/Iran engagement, failed (26:03).
- “He thought that Hezbollah would join… What he got totally wrong…” – Ronen Bergman (26:29)
- Arab-Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank largely rejected the call for insurrection.
- Hezbollah and Iran only engaged in limited, symbolic actions.
- Unexpected Success in the West: However, Sinwar unexpectedly succeeded in shifting segments of international opinion, bringing diplomatic and economic crises to Israel instead (28:53).
- “Sinwar basically shackled tens of thousands of Palestinians, civilians, to the train track and then fooled the world into blaming the train, which is Israel’s response.” – Ilan Benatar (28:53)
7. Sacrificial Logic and Anticipated Response
- Willing Sacrifice: Sinwar anticipated and accepted high Palestinian civilian casualties in pursuit of his goals, likening them to losses in a natural disaster (29:42).
- “He says, well, imagine that there is an earthquake in Gaza and 30,000 are dead because of the earthquake. What is this compared to the holy jihad?” – Ronen Bergman (29:42)
8. Planning, Deception, and International Dynamics
- Delays and Deception: The attack was postponed from 2022 to 2023 while Sinwar tried (and failed) to secure wider regional support (38:44ff).
- Hamas feigned calm, luring Israel into a false sense of security.
- Involvement of Hamas Leadership in Doha: The claim that military plans were unknown to political leaders in Qatar is false; encrypted communications show they were fully briefed and gave tacit approval to “the big plan” (42:58).
- “This whole claim that there is a political bureau Doha that is not aware…It’s all false.” – Ronen Bergman (42:58)
9. Explicit Aim to Disrupt Israel-Saudi Normalization
- Hamas perceived Israeli-Saudi rapprochement as a threat to the Palestinian cause, seeking to reignite attention to their struggle and “not let anyone sleep peacefully at night until this is done” (47:00).
10. Hostage Strategy
- Sinwar’s longstanding promise to free Palestinian prisoners and his manipulation of Israeli hostages as bargaining chips played a key role in planning (47:06).
11. Impact, Aftermath, and What’s Next
- Physical and Psychological Trauma: Sinwar’s “success” was in inflicting mass psychological harm on Israel (49:17). The enduring impact on Israelis is a central concern.
- “Every Israeli who was here, he knows what I’m talking about… People who saw the video, some of them, you cannot do an undo to a video that you saw...” – Ronen Bergman (49:17)
- Regional War: While Sinwar instigated a broader conflict, he failed to anticipate Israel’s military response and inability of the Axis to alter the outcome (45:22).
- Historical Watershed: The events of October 7 and after will be seen as a pivotal moment in regional history—but conclusions have yet to be written.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Sinwar’s written orders:
“Events must be planned in advance from which horrific images will emerge… Two or three operations must be organized whose purpose is the burning of an entire neighborhood or a kibbutz. …burn the place and broadcast the images.” – Ronen Bergman reading Sinwar’s memo (00:09, 14:09) -
On methodology:
“I have never seen an organization that is so obsessive with writing documents, reports, memos, minutes, protocols. Really never seen anything like that.” – Ronen Bergman (10:39) -
On video documentation:
“…the commanders are telling them, burn this or behead civilians or soldiers and document, do this on video… there’s even like a sort of a pocket guide to the Nukhba, how to take a video and then inject that into social media as soon as possible.” – Ronen Bergman (15:38) -
On objectives:
“Sinwar and his lieutenants devoted so much to was to convince Iran and Hezbollah to go to war with them. This is the main thing…his hope is that, once his partners the Axis…see the images that he is successful, they would like to join in.” – Ronen Bergman (24:00) -
On miscalculation and international response:
“Sinwar basically shackled tens of thousands of Palestinians, civilians, to the train track and then fooled the world into blaming the train, which is Israel.” – Ilan Benatar (28:53) -
On trauma in Israel:
“It’s a collective post traumatic situation. People went to sleep hundreds of kilometers from Gaza, went to sleep with knives because they dreamt that the Nukhba is coming to slaughter them.” – Ronen Bergman (26:29) -
On belief in regional war:
“His goal is to eradicate the state of Israel…and if we are able to convince the front, the Axis, to join us, we might be able to destroy the Jewish state or at least withdraw it decades to the past.” – (24:00) -
On failure to prepare for aftermath:
“He ignited a regional war which he was successful in, but it was a war that Israel won. Which was not part of his plan.” – Ilan Benatar (45:22)
Key Timestamps
- 00:09 / 14:09: Reading from Sinwar memo – explicit instructions to create and broadcast horrific images
- 07:57: Memo’s discovery in Khan Younis tunnel
- 10:39: On Hamas's obsessive documentation
- 15:38: Intercepts reveal real-time execution of atrocities per orders
- 20:42 – 24:00: Sinwar’s three objectives for the attack and the logic of brutality
- 26:29: Analysis of Sinwar’s successes and failures
- 28:53: Sinwar’s inadvertent success in activating Western pro-Palestinian reactions
- 29:42: Sinwar’s willingness to accept massive Palestinian casualties
- 34:33: Description of Sinwar’s daily habit of watching Israeli news while in tunnels
- 38:44: Hamas’s strategic deception and delay tactics
- 42:58: Direct involvement of Hamas’s Doha-based leadership in the October 7 plan
- 45:22: Sinwar’s success and failure in triggering regional war
- 47:00: Intent to disrupt Israel-Saudi normalization; importance of prisoner exchange
- 49:17: Enduring psychological impact on Israeli society
Final Reflections
Ronen Bergman’s reporting reveals October 7th was no spontaneous outburst but a meticulously planned and documented operation, aiming not just for infamy but for regional transformation. Sinwar’s expectations—internally and externally—were only partially fulfilled. While he failed to spark widespread regional war or Palestinian uprisings within Israel, his psychological and propaganda strategies left a lasting mark, both in Israeli trauma and a shifted global discourse. The episode ends on a note of cautious optimism with hostages returning, but with the acknowledgment that the story—and its repercussions—are far from over.
“There will not be a page turner to a better future for this region before they are released. …And there’s some happy note that they came back.” – Ronen Bergman, on the return of Israeli hostages (52:47)