Kirk (2:44)

Oh, no. I'm super excited.

Kelly Burst (2:46)

So maybe just give the audience a quick chance to hear kind of like your background and kind of how you built this whole dynasty of calm parenting dynasty.

Kirk (2:55)

I love that it started with all my failures, Kelly, because I think it's common story, right? Like my dad was old school, authoritarian, kind of my way, or the highway fear and intimidation approach. So you kind of, you know, you grow up, we get married, have kids, and then I just did what my dad did because that's all I knew. But our firstborn son, Casey, came out of the womb with boxing gloves on. He's just a strong willed kid and you can't intimidate those kids. And so everything I tried backfired. And I spent so much time thinking we just need to change him, like what do we need to do to get through to him? Because, you know, the strong will kids, it's like they make everything harder. Consequences don't really work. They like to touch the hot stove. And so what I finally realized was the only person in life that I can control is myself. And when I started controlling my responses to him, my tone of voice, my body posture, his behavior started to change. So it changed our family. And it had nothing to do with our son. It was all about, you know, us learning as adults to change. And then we did something weird, which was I was always really good at working with the outcast kids, really different kids. So we decided to invite them into our home. So the idea was we'd have 8, 10, 15 strong willed kids on this, a lot of them on a spectrum, neurodivergent kids into our home. We called them Lego camps because we didn't want them to think they were being worked on. And so they come in and they play with Legos. And in the course of doing that, they would get disappointed and frustrated, they yell at each other. So we began teaching them how to control their emotions and impulses just in the course of everyday interactions. And then it grew. And we had about 1500 kids in our home over the course of a decade. And then we started traveling and Speaking. And now the podcast is the main thing because we want to be like you, Kelly, because you're an awesome podcaster.

Kelly Burst (4:57)

Yeah, no, your podcast, I love it because they're short episodes that it's just like so relatable and it's actionable content. You just jump right in and it's stuff that you can implement that day and you really. I feel like when I implement those things, I really see, like, quick results. Like, I really feel like when, like you mentioned some one one time before, like sitting down when you're trying to yell at them and it's like, it's so hard to do and it's like little things like that. So I just, I love all of the practical tips you have. So anyways, let's just jump right in. So I want to talk about how can we stop a power struggle before it escalates and we're out of control?

Kirk (5:34)

Okay. So I'd say let's do this. I'd say one is always control yourself. Right? And realize I believe 80% of power struggles come from our own anxiety and control issues. So our anxiety as parents, we love our kids, we want them to be successful, but many of us have strong will kids and they're going to do things differently than we would do it. Many of us have kids, especially, like for people who have older kids, like the middle school child who sits in a hoodie sweatshirt for 18 straight days and plays video games. You're like, who is ever going to marry this child? How is this child going to be successful? But it also, Kelly starts in preschool with like, well, we're already getting notes because our daughter won't sit still. She's in trouble. And your anxiety causes you to project into the future. And then you start lecturing. And lecturing isn't teaching, it's micromanaging and it's annoying. And people, nobody likes to be lectured. So so much of it is just realizing, oh, that's my anxiety talking right now and calming yourself and realizing kids are supposed to mess up. It's not an excuse to let your kids run all over the place. But you have younger kids, right? And so I had this dad once, he's like, when's, when's my 4 year old gonna learn self discipline? And I'm like, he's four. Like, what is the job description of a toddler? To make messes, ruin your agenda, get into things. So I think, you know, as I'm talking for younger parents, reset your expectations of yourself because you get judged a lot, especially with social media. It's like there's always like the mom with like six kids and they look great and they eat healthy and you're like, I can't even handle one right. Like, so they're supposed to mess up. They're just, you know, they're, they're doing things for the first time in their life. So recognizing you're not a bad mom or dad if your child misbehaves, if they're impulsive, and so you can control your anxiety a little bit. And then the other one, Kelly, is control your own control issues. Because we all. It's like you're like, you're really young. I don't know, you look like you're 28 or something. So. But you're young. And so it's. But still, you've been doing things the same way for, say, 30 years. And then you look at your child and you're like, well, this is the right way to do it. And the strong will child's going to be like, no, I don't think so. I don't want to do it your way. I want to figure it out myself, even if that's harder. So forgive me for talking so much, but the big concept, I think, to learn with strong will kids is giving them ownership of their choices within your boundaries. So you don't say, hey, do whatever you want. It's no, here's what I want accomplished. I'm very clear with that. But here's the difference. I relinquish control over how you get that done as long as you get it done. Like homework time. Well, it's got to get done. But if you want to do your homework sitting in a closet or laying upside down off the sofa in a way that absolutely irritates me, go for it. Ownership in the morning over morning routine. Kelly. I can tell we talked before Kelly was up like at 4 o'clock in the morning for this podcast. Not quite the close for this interview, because she's very, very organized, right?

Kelly Burst (9:04)

Yeah.

Kirk (9:05)

Like, I can tell by her email, she's like, organized. Well, you, obviously, it served you well in life to be organized and on time and have things set up. And so you go to do that for your kids. And the compliant kids will love that. And they're gonn, of course, Mommy. But the strong will tells you to be like, I don't like your way. And then we as parents are like, well, you're just being defiant and rebellious. And they're like, no, I want to kind of figure it out myself. So do things Differently of like, especially because you live in a warm place. Like I start the morning with a treasure hunt of I hide some food, their breakfast outside. Why? Because it's weird and different and because they don't want to be that regimented all the time. But the idea of ownership is I'm actually giving, I'm actually teaching them how to be responsible for themselves. Because when I'm micromanaging, in a sense, I'm kind of saying to them, you can't really do this yourself and you need me to watch you everything you do and point out everything you do wrong. And they will eventually just reject that and they won't learn to be responsible for themselves. But it's, it's, it's hard because you have to know your control issues.

Kelly Burst (10:23)

Yeah, that I, gosh, that resonates with me so much because I'm going to put my mom on blast a little bit right now. Sorry, mom. But I mean it's, it's pretty well known she's a little bit of control freak. And unfortunately, I have taken after those tendencies and having children of my own has helped reveal that in myself. And it's been actually really helpful because I've been able to identify it and see that I don't want to continue that, that pattern. So, you know, intentionally, in those moments where there is a power struggle with my 3 year old stopping and saying, okay, maybe that's not the way I do it, but that's the way he's going to do it. Just let him do it. Like, that is really, really helpful and beneficial because I'm releasing control. And so that is such a great tactic that has actually really helped me.

Kirk (11:06)

That's awesome you just brought up, which is what I love about your generation is that you all are doing the hard work of breaking those generational patterns. Right. And it's, and it's hard because you can't afford homes or do anything else, so you may as well just work on it. No, it's a real, it's a real issue. But I noticed like on our Instagram page, the younger kind of millennial group of parents is very in tune with, hey, I kind of inherited this pattern from my mom and my dad and I want to break that. So I like what you said of I recognize it. And then I step back, I think even, like an even matter of fact tone, like with your little guy. Well, of course you would want to do it differently. I can't wait to see your creativity. And you can look, it doesn't mean you never Direct them. But it means you step. Our phrases. When we step back as parents, it gives them space to step up and to mess up and to. To use their creativity. And so you normalize. Well, of course, you don't want to do it like everybody else does it, and you're really creative. Let me know if you need some help with that. See, that's a lot different than. Oh, I can see you doing that. Here, let me show you how to do it more efficiently. And they're like, I'm out. Yeah, because. Right, you've noticed that. So I love that you're doing that. And I applaud the parents out there who are breaking these generational patterns, because the gift to your kids is your kids will not grow up and be. Have to struggle with being control freaks.

Kelly Burst (12:42)

Yeah, yeah, 1,000%. Which is kind of, you know, I want to segue a little bit into the idea of gentle parenting, because that's a huge thing right now. It's like, a trendy topic, I feel like. And there's two boats. There's either, like, absolutely not. Like, I'm not going to let my kids walk all over me, or yes, honey, like, let's just talk about it. And I think that there's a middle ground, and I think that a lot of people miss that, Mark. And so maybe you can talk a little bit on that and how you feel on the topic in general of gentle parenting.

Kirk (13:12)

Okay, you're just trying to get me in trouble now.

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Kirk (13:15)

You've noticed in our podcasts and our Instagram videos, I never use the word gentle parenting. I always talk about, like, too sweet, because. So here's the deal. I like. The overall goals and aims of gentle parenting and soft parenting are really good. So think about this. A lot of us grew up with that very authoritarian parenting. Right? And it's my way or the highway. Fear and intimidation. And if I step back, there's three things I think we want with our kids. We want connection with them. We want to be able to correct behavior that's detrimental to our kids and our family life. And ultimately, we want to teach our kids how to control themselves, because discipline means to teach. So the authoritarian approach was okay at changing outward behavior for a period of time, but we didn't. I didn't have a relationship with my dad, and I didn't trust him, and he didn't teach me anything. It was just based out of fear.

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Kirk (16:44)

So we rejected that. And I think in our society we have swung a little bit too far to being overly sweet. And I just realized this recently, Kelly, I think what happened is many of us weren't listened to as kids, so now we go as far as oh honey, do you want to talk about your emotions? But we kind of just stay there and it's almost like, well, at least I connected with my child, which is awesome, which is gentle. Parents are awesome at connecting with their kids. And you do change behavior sometimes, but with the strong willed child, and here's where I would draw the distinction, if you want to talk sweetly to compliant kids, do it all day long. Because you don't really have to do anything with compliant kids. They're just going to be like, of course mommy, I'll do whatever you want. But to the strong willed child, that really sweet tone sounds weak and condescending. And inside your four year old is like, look, I'm foregoing on 24. Why are you talking to me like that? And it at times sounds like the parent doesn't know what they want to do either, how to handle it. And an excessive amount of talking about emotions is frustrating. Would you want to talk about them? And sometimes what the child needs is, you know what? I already know what my emotions are. I wanted to do something, it didn't go the way I wanted it. I'm frustrated. You change plans on me. I didn't get what I want. I'm disappointed. I'm going to a new place, I'm anxious. What I need is an adult to come in and help me know what to do with those emotions, not just talk about them. And so I think the middle ground that we try to take is I'm calm, I'm authoritative and I'm a leader. So when my child, a child is struggling and I say, I'll give you an example, let's say a many of us have little kids who come home from school and they want to build like a paper airplane, right? And so they throw the paper airplane, it doesn't fly right. Well, the strong will child is going to be like, stupid airplane. I hate this airplane. Well, authoritarian parent will come and say, you know what, no more ruining all my paper. Suck it up and deal with it. Right? We don't want to dismiss it, but a too sweet parent will come and oh, honey, you must be really upset. Do you want to talk about your emotions? And they're like, no, not Evan. Really. Right. Like inside. And so what I would do is come in and this is really good for just calming upset people. Kids is I come in and say, oh man, if I were you, I'd be frustrated too. You spent a lot of time trying on that airplane didn't fly right. That's frustrating. See the intensity of the validation? Look, for moms out there, let's say that a friend or a sister in Law said something mean and hurt you and you go to your husband, you're like, I can't believe that she said that. And if your husband is like, oh, I'm sure she didn't mean it. You'd be like, you're sleeping in the extra bedroom, right? What you want to hear is, that was really mean. That would really hurt me too. Because now you're like, oh, good, I feel understood. But I'm not staying there and spending 15 minutes just talking about emotions. So now the next step is so I valid. Of course you're frustrated. You should be frustrated. What I didn't say is, so you should go hit your sister or punch a hole in the wall. Now I say, hey, I need to go get something to drink, go to the bathroom. Because I like giving kids space to process their emotions without staring at them. Like, Kelly, this probably doesn't happen to you, but if you ever been like really upset or your husband, nobody likes to be looked at when they're upset because you're processing this emotion. So I step out of the room and while I'm going, I say, hey, when I get back, why don't we problem solve? I bet we come up with a different way to build that airplane. So now I acknowledge the emotion, but now I'm giving space to process and then saying, hey, I'm here if you want to try it a different way. But notice that even matter of fact tone is very calming because it says, oh, I can help you with this. And I'm not thrown by it. Sometimes the authoritarian tone of like my dad's phrase was dried up. No emotions. Right. I just saw you flinch when I said that. But that was very common back then. Dry it up. When I just dismissed emotions and shut them down. But the really sweet approach sometimes sounds like you're really upset and it makes me really uncomfortable and I feel like I need to fix your emotions right now. And so I'm just going to talk to you. And when you talk to a strong willed child who's upset, it tends to make them more upset. But when I said, I know what's going on, I'm going to remove myself for 30 seconds or a minute and when I come back, I can help you. See, now it's like, oh, someone's here who actually has been through this before and can help me. I don't know if that helps.

Kelly Burst (22:10)

Yeah, and I really like what you said about stepping away because I'm just thinking about like anytime my toddlers had like a frustrating moment or a meltdown And I'm usually already overstimulated. So as soon as they start whining or crying or something, I need it to stop right then because I just, I can't take the crying or the whining. So, you know, acknowledging it and then walking away, giving them time to process, giving me a moment to process. I think that's a really great tactic for both sides.

Kirk (22:35)

That's great. The whole idea of like you walking away gives you a minute to like, I'm gonna go get a drink, I'm gonna go to the bathroom. And then you can process of like, all right, it's only 11 o'clock in the morning and I'm already done, right? Because it's hard. And so that was the whole idea too, of even sitting at times, of being able to sit. Like if I. If you want to practice this, pick a situation. Your kid's crying, a tantrum, siblings fighting, walk into the kitchen or living room and just sit in it without feeling the need to fix it and make it all better. Because that's a hard one. Because we're like, why is my child crying? Why are you fighting? If I'm going to be a good mom or dad, I need to fix that. But what happens when we try to fix things is we often just add our own emotion to it, right? Like two kids fighting is already amped up emotion. And then we come in. What are you guys arguing about? I already, I buy you all these toys and video games. You can't even play well for 20 minutes. What do I have to do? You go to your room. Now we have three people with drama. But if I walk in and if you have younger kids, as long as they don't like jump on your head, walk into the room sometime and actually lie down on the floor. And I try it with teenagers too. Because if a teenager is like having attitude with you and you lie down on the floor, they're going to be like, what are you doing? Doing? You're weird. And I'll be like, we're both weird because I'm old and you're a teenager. But the lying down part so throws them off. And they'd be like, why is my mommy or my mom. By the way, quick note, I'm not a big fan if you have a strong willed child of referring to yourself as mommy or daddy when you're trying to discipline strong willed kids. Because they hear that as weakness, right? Because there's a subtle manip, you know, mommy doesn't want you to do that. And it's almost like, I'm your mom, Mommy. Be good to your mom. And so strong will kids. I tend to talk them and I refer to myself as mom or dad. Now, when you're being sweet and cuddly, be all mommy as you want. But when you're disciplined, just watch. Watch a little bit of those subtle things with these kids. But anyway, I would lie down on the floor or sit. Read a book, even, but sit in it to break that pattern. Because what your mom did, and she was awesome because she raised a very conscientious daughter. Right. Like, you were ready for our interview, like, six hours before you needed to be. So you can text your mom later and say, thanks for making me a conscientious person. Because, look, it's early in the morning and you're all put together and you look awesome. I just woke up and threw on a hat. And so. So it's an important thing for breaking generational patterns. And I know I'm off topic here, but that served you well, right? Your ability to be in control of things serves you well because you're organized, your home, you have traditions and routines, and your home's not super chaotic. But then it tips over into. Now it begins to hurt my relationships because I'm a little bit too rigid with my kids or with my spouse. So you don't beat yourself up for those childhood wounds. You're able to say, hey, that served me well. Like, when I was a little kid, man, that was really good. My mom taught me how to be organized and on top of things, and that's really useful in life. But in my relationships now, I need to actively say, I'm letting my child own his or her choice right now without having to fix it.

Kelly Burst (26:22)

Yeah, I think that's great. And I think there was some. I want to say it was in the 30 days to call, maybe it was like, I think you mentioned, like, intentionally, like, let something go wrong or do something the wrong way or something. And I love that. But it was so hard for me because it was like, like, make your coffee the wrong way, or, like, let someone do something the complete wrong way or something like that.

Kirk (26:41)

I can't remember now, but it's practice imperfection.

Kelly Burst (26:44)

Yes, Practice imperfection. And it was so hard for me because, you know, I'm sure you can imagine I like to do things my way, the right way every time. So that was like. But getting uncomfortable with doing things a different way and letting things go wrong is, like, something we probably would never think to do. But it is so useful as well.

Kirk (27:02)

Especially if you're practicing it, then it's in your control even. Right? Like, I, I make the joke of at Christmas time, how many people let your kids decorate the Christmas tree, but you can't wait for them to go to bed so you can make it all right, make it look nice. And one year we had a Christmas tree that was just slanted a little bit, like it was off to the side. And everybody's like, do you realize your tree isn't straight? And I was like, yeah, but it's bothering you, not me, because I'm practicing. But you do. You have to practice. Like, and being calm doesn't mean you're going to be like some Zen master. It's still going to frustrate you, but you just don't react to it because otherwise you will walk around correcting your kids 15, 20, 30 times a day. And so I'd rather you pick the things that are really important, not the fact that, yeah, I don't like the way my child, like, you know, talk about our son, Casey. He's a grown man now. I never liked the way he did things. I still don't like the way he does things. He's irritating. And half the time, even now, he does it because he knows it irritates me. And that's my issue. But when you can let go of that and be like, you know what, not the way I would have done it, but I like your creativity. And one final thing is I guarantee you over time, in time, your kids will follow your example. But strong willed kids often have to reject what you want first. And that's a huge insight before they can own it themselves. So they're probably not going to eat what you want to eat at first. If your faith is important, they're probably going to reject your faith first because they don't want to believe, they don't want to eat, they don't want to do things just because mommy and daddy want, want me to. They want to wrestle with themselves and then come to it on their own. But here's the cool thing. Once our son determined that putting healthy food into his body was good because it affected his body, he was done. Like, now he's done it for the rest of his life. And once he owns certain choices, it's like, well, now he owns it. So the sooner you give them some ownership, the sooner you have to stop lecturing and doing all of that, which is kind of cool.

Kelly Burst (29:19)

Okay, well, that gives me a lot of hope for my picky eater because my three year old, the very strong willed one, is so picky. And if you ask him to eat anything. Nope. It's got to be his choice. And usually he still won't do it. And praying at night, if I ask him to say his prayers before bed. Nope. But if he decides to say his prayers, yep. He'll say, I'm just fine. So it's so funny because that's so spot on.

Kirk (29:38)

I love that. So I would. So we did. I did this podcast once. It was called something like kids won't eat your ideas or your food. And so it was because they won't. They'll reject all of your. If you're, if you want it too badly and it's too important to you, they're going to be like, I'm not going down that path, mom or dad, because you are so intense about it. I'll never really believe the right way or do it the right way. And so with a picky kid it was let's make some protein balls or get some protein bars, right. That are reasonably healthy and we just leave them on the counter in the bathroom out by the kids tree house. And if you don't mention anything because they're busy all the time and they don't want to always stop to eat and they have sensory issues and they're very, very picky. It's like Mac and cheese, chicken nuggets, bagels, breads, you know, watch out. Anxiety. A lot of our kids struggle with anxiety. It lives in the stomach. So their stomachs are upset, so they seek salty stuff. Right. So, so we just left stuff. And then his parents were like, well, he started eating more but he left his wrappers everywhere. I was like, well, you have to expect that, right? Like at least you knew there's the trail of what where he ate. But there's often, I think, Kelly, that's that when I step back a little bit, I model it for them. And I if like with your son, if I just put like a new food out, I put like one carrot, not like a whole plate. And I wouldn't mention anything. And even if he eats the one carrot, I know his parents were like, oh buddy, you just ate a carrot. And they're like, I'm out. I'm never doing that again. Same with potty training, right? Like you just pooped. And they're like way too much attention. Chill. And so a lot of with strong will kids is I just even praise them at times in a matter of fact tone because there's no pressure Hey, I really like how you handle that. Hey, good job. And then change the subject because if you go on too long now, it's like, I'm never eating a carrot again because you made too big a deal out of it.

Kelly Burst (31:49)

That's such an interesting. Yeah, I kind of want to talk a little bit about that as far as sibling fights, because I do have two boys, three and a half and a one year old. And the three and a half year old loves to push the one year old down, try to choke him out, try to pull his hair, like, like literally wrestling moves. It's intense. And so, you know, we've tried kind of a lot of different methods, but the big reactions obviously don't work because he loves that attention. So I kind of want to hear your take on that. The best way to handle that when you know the siblings are picking on the other siblings, because I know that's a lot of parents out there.

Kirk (32:24)

Okay. I'll hit it from a couple different angles because it can be complex. One is to set the expectation that kids, siblings are supposed to fight. I know a lot of moms don't like that. Or if you grow up in a and you are an only child, you're like, I can't believe they're doing that. I mean, whether you take the religious part out of this, one of our most ancient texts that we have is of a family. And one of the first two kids murdered his brother. Right. Like, so even if it's not historically accurate, it reflects the culture thousands of years ago and that never changed. I mean, so I want you to know you're not doing something wrong if your kids are fighting. Like if you, I mean, you all have been on family vacation. If you stick enough humans together for a period of time, we irritate each other. And so that's part of it, I think for the three and a half year old. With the one year old, look, there can be a little bit of like, hey, I was king. And then all of a sudden this irritating little kid came along and Now I've got 50%, not even 50% of the energy because that child takes a lot more. And there's also a dynamic. And I'll expand this. With many of our kids, the strong willed child is usually in trouble a lot. And so. And then there's usually a strong willed and a compliant child. And everybody loves the compliant child because they're just easy. And so there's natural built in resentment toward that one. So a few things. One is for the three and a Half year old. I try to take him out of feeling like he's competing with the one year old. So it can sound kind of like this. Oh man, you know what? You're capable of so much more like your brother's only one. You can tie your shoes, you can do this. I could really use your help. And I'm saying this kind of in a fun way, but it's like your one year old brother is kind of useless, right? You can't do anything. So not quite that far. But, but drawing the three and a half year old so it's not like they're over here competing. It's like, no, let me, I need your help because I got a lot going on. He can't even like he can't do potty training, he can't do anything. And so give the three and a half year old maybe some adult type jobs because that makes them feel competent and do a lot of praising. Even matter of fact way with a three and a half year old of like, man, you're so good at that because that takes a little of the competition. There is also a sensory component of. It's kind of fun to. I hate to say this, but kind of like the physical pressure and pulling someone's hair, it feels kind of nice and I'm in control of that person. So you can blame your mom because your three and a half year old got control issues from your mother. So. But I would do a lot of sensory, physical, sensory exercise with a three and a half year old and especially with your husband. And I'm not being sexist at all, but there's a lot of research on rough housing that physical play is really helpful for actually bonding dads and their kids because that, like if you see a parent throwing a little child up in the air and catching him, it's never a mother, right? It's very right. It's always a dad. And so that's kind of hardwired in. But that sensory pressure, like I used to play when we had these kids at camp, we would play a game where I was on the floor and I would steamroll across the floor and the kids had to jump over me. But the sensory kids all let me catch their feet and I would steamroll over them. That sensory pressure and obstacle course stuff to crawl under, crawl over, pull on. Having your three and a half year old help outside with like, oh man, I don't know if you're strong enough, but could you move that bag of mulch for me? Could you dig a hole for Me, because part of what the fighting with siblings is, it's just very tactile. And it feels good, like to jump off the top rope like you're three and a half year old and come crashing down on his brother. So what you're able to say then is showing them, hey, moving mulch, wrestling with me. Perfect. Okay. Doing that to a one year old. Not happening in my home. So now they get to see. If you want some sensory pressure, bring it with me. As they get older, rock climbing, martial arts, swimming, sensory strong will. Kids tend not to be that great at team sports because they're so independent. So this will save you some money and frustration of your husband signing up. Why? Played baseball as a kid. And if you have an ADD kid, they're not even know what field they're on. So doing individual activities is usually. And very physical ones can be really helpful. And then I think, finally, I think when that's happening, try not to react too much. Just get the three and a half year old, call him off of the one year old and then give him a mission of some kind. So you can say no, obviously. Hey, we don't pick on one year olds like, come on, you're like, but here's what we can do. And I don't know if you stay home, Kelly, or whatever, whatever the dynamic is in, in your homes out there, like this one, I'd have your husband leave your three and a half year old like a little envelope every morning with a secret mission or a couple of them during the day of like, hey, your one year old brother, he can't do this. Your mom has way too much to do. Do you think you could move this from. And just create some little jobs for him to do? Probably organizing. If he's a little OCD like you, he'll probably. I'm kidding. But he'll probably like organize organizing things. So I, So let me wrap it up this way. You can always, you always say no, but whenever you say no, especially with little kids to something inappropriate, you have to say yes to something appropriate. Choke hold on one year old. No. But you like to be really physical. Can you open these jars for me? You get them. Can you move this out in the backyard? All those things. That's kind of where I go with that.

Kelly Burst (38:39)

I love all that so much. I feel like I'm gonna listen to that on repeat. Sometimes I need these reminders. And like you said, I have a little ocd. I'm not. You're not wrong. Because when I went through some of Your courses. I actually wrote down, like, little phrases of things I didn't want to forget. And then I typed them up, and then I printed out and. And I put it on my refrigerator so that every time I open the refrigerator, I'd read it like, okay, all right. We're gonna have a frustrating moment. I know it's coming. This is what I'm going to do. Because I need those actual reminders because it's so easy to just forget. So I need that.

Kirk (39:08)

No, that's. That's where that serves you really well, right? So now you've got, like, a nice typed list on your fridge, and it's like, okay, we're going to have meltdowns. I'm going to have sibling fights. Here are my three things to do. And it's a quick glance because we're busy parents, right? Like, you don't have time to just sit down and read, like, three chapters of a book. Meanwhile, your child's being like, you know, have a chokehold on them.

Kelly Burst (39:33)

Yeah, no 5,000%. Yeah. That's so true. So I want to transition a little bit into. Another really common thing with parents is the tantrums that just won't stop. So they're in the. This cycle of just melting down. Whining, screaming, crying. And no matter what you're doing, all the tactics you're using, they just are melting down, and you can't get it to stop. What is your go to?

Kirk (39:54)

Okay, so do this quickly. I would have a distinction between a tantrum. So a tantrum is, mommy, I want fruit snacks. No, you can't have now. Well, and it's purely rational, right? They just want to wear you down. And they do this really well in stores and in public because they know you're embarrassed in front of family. Like, your mom of, like, you never melted down like this. So the tantrum, to me, for younger kids is very much. It's rational. So I sit in those, and I'm like, look, I've got two rules in my home for tantrums. Number one is, we do everything with excellence in our home. If you are going to have a tantrum, give me all you got. Roll on the floor, say you hate me, all those things. Because the second rule is tantrums don't work with me. Your mood does not change my mood. Your behavior does not determine my behavior. My no is my nose. And I don't lecture. So tantrums are pretty easy because you can tell. Usually tantrum, you can tell. That's a little bit of, like, I'm just trying to get this because if you turn away, they'll stop crying sometimes and as soon as you come back, they'll be so. But a meltdown is harder because now that's irrational. They're no longer in control of your emotions. So I'll give you five quick things. Number one is don't your. As parents, our first thing is like, well, we just need to get them to calm down. But you know this, Kelly, if your husband ever says, honey, I just think you need to calm down. And you're like, really? Did you just say that? Nobody in the history of the world has been like, I'm the calm guy. If you told me to calm down, I would probably swear at you so bad. I'm kidding. But so I don't try to calm them down. This is interesting. The first thing I do is try to give them something they're in control of. Because a melt in a meltdown, whether it's me as an adult or a 4 year old or 14 year old, is my world just changed. Everything feels like it's out of my control and so I'm just losing it. So I try to give them something they're in control of. And I'll give you an example when I put this together. Number two, control yourself, calm yourself down. And we've kind of been through that even matter of fact, tone, don't react, whatever it takes, sit down. Number three, motion changes emotion. I like movement. Talking to an upset child tends to make them more upset. It's too many words I can't process because I've got all this stuff going on. But a physical action step can be really helpful and I'll give you examples in a minute. Then that intensity we talked about before, right? Of like, yeah, of course you're frustrated right now. Of course you're upset because things didn't go your way. And then no eye contact. I know really sweet moms love like, well, I'm just going to get down on his level and look him in the eyes right? When my child is filled with shame, we look in their eyes and now it's like big headlights, lights on them while they're at their worst moment. So I don't do eye contact when people are in the midst of their shame and embarrassment because that spirals even more, right? Like, like when you mess up or your husband messes up. The worst thing is when your whole family stops and like looks at you like, why are you melting down mom or dad? So let me give you a couple examples. So Child's melting down. I'll do younger kids, some older kids, stuff of like, oh, man, if I were you, I'd be frustrated, too. You know what I just remembered? Could you go to the pantry and get that spaghetti sauce? Do you think you could get that top off for me? See, I just gave them a mission that they're in control of. I would have some go to's. Like, a lot of our kids like organizing things. Like in a classroom, it's always like, oh, I get why you're frustrated. Listen, I need some help. Could you go, there's a dish over there and it has paper clips with different colors. Could you organize them by color? Because what I'm doing is if you just say, you need to calm down. I don't know how to calm down. I don't even know why I'm this upset. But I do know how to organize things. I can twist that jar off. I can get down on the ground and say, oh, man. You know what I do when I'm frustrated? I do push ups. So I would do push ups when we had these kids at camp at a grocery store. I would just hit the floor in aisle three and start doing push ups. And I'd be like, come on. If you. If you did 10 push ups every time you were frustrated, you'd be jacked, right? I didn't really say that, but I would. I would invite them in and I would model that. Especially like your three and a half year old who sounds like a sensory kid. Oh, here's my favorite thing. Oh, you know what? I just remembered. It's a great phrase because it gives you like two seconds to make up something and be like, I just remembered there's something in the basement that needs to be moved. Could you help me with that? Because I've had older kids and I was on the phone once with this really good mom, and she's like, our daughter is destroying our home right now, and we can't get her to stop. And I said, do you have a. Do you have, like a sofa in the basement? She said, yeah. And I said, so say this. Hey, honey, listen, I've got to call grandma. Could you do me a favor? In the next couple of minutes, I don't know if you're strong enough, but could you move the sofa from one side of the room to the other? Because I've got a vacuum down there. And so instead of trying to calm this child down, the child now had a mission and a challenge. It was a hard challenge. She was on her own. And when the mom walked downstairs, the daughter was beaming because she had just been in control of something and accomplished something. I don't know how to calm down, but I do know how to move that sofa. And in this case the daughter actually said, mom, I'll vacuum for you. Which she would never vacuum if mom had asked her to vacuum. But now that it's an adult type thing. So I would encourage moms and dads have a go to on your refrigerator of three to five missions that your child could do or that you could do because sometimes with our son, I'll give a quick teenager one. Casey had a lot of attitude and I'd say, case, listen, I can tell last, you know, 43 times you use this attitude with me it was because you were angry, frustrated or hungry. Listen, if you want to get the chips, I'll grab the salsa, I'll meet you out on the deck. I'll help you with whatever you're struggling with. One more cool one. Coloring. Coloring is such a cool thing to do whether you have a 3 year old or a 13 year old daughter or when your kids are teens because if they're freaking out on you and you talk to them, it doesn't work. But if you just start coloring at the kitchen table and you hold up a crayon, they will come up. Now they're going to grab their crayon from you like this and you've got to watch saying, you know what, I was going to color with you but if you're not going to be respectful with how you stop. Now I've got two people, I've got a mom and a 13 year old daughter sitting at a table coloring together. And part of the reason I like these of like I'm going to go throw the football around when you're ready if you want to come play catch. I'm inviting my child to do something with me rather than sending them away from me. And I love that. That's part of the gentle parenting, part of the connection which we really want. So that connection, Case, I can tell you're frustrated. Listen, I'm going to go throw a ball around when you're ready. And the when you're ready phrase really important with strong willed kids because if you command them right now you need to do X, I will bet a thousand dollars they will do opposite. But if you say hey, when you're ready, it's like one more. I know I'm talking too much, Kelly. Sorry.

Kelly Burst (47:33)

No you're not. This is fantastic. I'm loving It.

Kirk (47:35)

But like, if your three and a half year old does something mean to his brother, if you're like, you need to apologize to Eli. I just made that name up. Eli. Right now he's gonna be like, no. And you're gonna be like, if you don't apologize right now, you don't get any fun toys. I don't care. You're stupid, right? And now it's blown up. But if you went to him and said, hey, I know that when you're ready, you know the right thing to do, and then you walk away and drink a little bit by that, I'm kidding. We don't want you to drink, but you're going to feel like it. I'm kidding. But it's frustrating, right? Like, I always wanted to do live events. Kelly. We used to speak a lot at PTA events. I always want to do like, bring your own wine. We'll relax, we'll talk about these kids. Don't drink. But when I do that and say, hey, when you're ready, I know you know the right thing to, like, your kids know the right thing to do. You have to apologize. Or a dad saying, hey, when you're ready, I know you know the right thing to do with your mom. But if you're trying to force an apology, you always get, fine, sorry, and now you've got a forced apology. But if you create that space, let them do it in their own timing. Well, now I got contrition. And it's usually going to be when you're not bugging them to do it. I'm just going to stand here until you apologize. You're going to be standing there for three days. They're not going to do it because you can say, I'm going to take away everything you own. That's okay. I'll box up my stuff and walk it to Goodwill myself. Right. They want the ownership and agency, so you walk away. It's just really cool how it works, but it is hard.

Kelly Burst (49:12)

You know, one thing I really want to circle back to is kind of what we started with was the parents involvement and all of this and how their emotions and their baggage and how everything they bring to the table affects the parenting. And it's like you mentioned, kind of when we started, it's not so much about controlling how they're reacting, it's about controlling what you know, how we're reacting to the situation. So maybe you can just leave us with a few thoughts on how parents can be more aware or start working on what they're bringing to the table and how they can, you know, use that to leverage to work on their discipline with their kids and not necessarily focusing so much on what their kids are doing in the situation.

Kirk (49:52)

Perfect. By the way, tell your mom that she raised a very bright daughter who asks amazing questions. And like, you process and you come back to things, like, you're organized in your interviewing. It makes it so much easier for me. So that's another gift that you have. Okay, so I think, you know, you've been through our program and you don't have to go through our program, but that 30 days to calm. The idea is, hey, for the next 30 days, let's not focus. Let's make it shorter. Moms and dads for the next week or two, watch. Start to kind of even write down the interactions that you struggle with. Common ones. Okay, My son or daughter resists. When they resist and say no to me right away, what do you feel? Well, I feel guilty because I never said that to my parents. My parents think that I'm letting my kids get away with things. That creates resentment in me because I do way too much for my kids. And all I ask them to do is one simple thing. So almost like journaling it or for the engineer people out there, diagram it. So I get resistance from my child that triggers all these different feelings inside of me. Then I react out of those feelings and I lecture, I yell, I repeat myself 15 times. Well, then diagram how does my child react to that? They shut down. They dig in more. And so my. I hate using the word hack, but kind of my hack for this is, then do try doing the opposite of what you normally are doing for the next week, because what you're doing right now isn't working. You're getting the exact opposite response that you want. So then you can expect it the next time. My son or daughter resists says no. Instead of feeling guilty and doing process all of that. Right? That's all normal. You're going to wrestle with these things inside. Like, I mean, I think our latest podcast is on that of wrestle with those things. Are we being too soft? My family has said if we were just harsh with our child, they would behave. Should we try that? And inside you're like, no, we already did that. Like, we did the consequences and spanking and everything else, and it made it worse. So. So then you do the opposite and you're like, okay, so now I'm going to plant a seed because I like that with kids, instead of just telling them what to do all the Time, hey, I found in life tends to work a lot better when you do X or Y and you walk out of the room. Because now they can process it without you standing there. I'm going to stand here until you make a different choice. And your child's just going to be like, okay, let's have a standoff. Because I don't sleep, I don't eat, I don't pee. Like, I'll go, I'll outlast you. Right? So I begin to do that. And I would start. This is a really good question. I would begin with one area, right? Like, especially the moms, don't tell your husbands, like, honey, we need to completely redo our entire parenting paradigm. Because he's gonna be like, I'm out. Yeah, but how about like, and this is, Men are very mission oriented. So I will say, hey, hubby, when you come home from work. This is how it usually works in the home. And then we all end up tense and I don't sleep with you and I don't think you want that response. I'm kidding, but not really, right? That's what happens. Like, I don't want to sleep with a guy who's out of control and undoes everything that I have spent my day doing. So could we try doing this instead? When you come home from work, and especially little kids, sit and instead of correcting your child first connect with them. Point out one good thing they have done or one thing you like them like about them and let's just see how they respond to that. So I start with small things. Hey, next time our child is melting down, why don't you hit the ground and start doing some push ups. Let's just see if it works. I mean, if this calm guy stuff doesn't work, then we won't do it. Let's go back to your rigid, authoritarian way and we'll be divorced in 10 years. And I'll take half of I'm just kidding, but I'm not kidding. That's what happens, right? That is absolutely what happens. But break it down. Pick one or two areas and then just practice it because your kids also are practicing a new response because they're used to mom or dad talk, talk, talk, talk, talk or yell or take things away. So the first time that you don't freak out, they're going to miss your intensity a little bit. Like, why aren't you yelling at me? And instead, that's why I like the positive intensity of like, yeah, of course you're frustrated. Your one year old Brother just came in and stole your favorite toy. Like, of course you want to. Do you want to choke him? Right? Like, I'm not encouraging it, but that's what he's feeling. You just know that doesn't work in our home. So why don't we do X instead and start working on a couple of those situations and then it will build your confidence and their confidence. And then when you praise, you can say fist bump. Like, hey, I love how you handle that. Like, can you imagine, I'm not being sexist here, but like a dad coming home from work with your three and a half year old and just saying, like, hey, we need to talk. And then you're three and a half years, oh, am I in trouble with dad? And dad gets down. He's like, mom texted me today. She said you were a rock star, man, the way you helped her today, that will. That will make that three and a half year old want to work even harder and do things well, because he got the fist bump. And now every time. And this can be both. Either gender, right? But every time now dad needs to correct his son or your son. Now it's sandwiched in between fist bump, man, that shows me you're growing up. That was awesome. Then when he corrects him, he'd be like, hey, you're doing an awesome job. This one area you're struggling with, probably because you learned it from me, right? So why don't we work on that? And now, what's the right way? Philosophically, conceptually, I'm walking alongside my child and teaching. See, there's a little bit of gentle parenting in there, right? You can hear that of. I'm going to come alongside. So I use. I try to use the good parts. Like the. Our. Our parents were really good at not getting emotionally entangled with us. They're like, oh, you're bored today. Yeah, that's your issue. I'm not your circus clown. Whereas, like, a modern parent might be like, well, we could try this and we could try that. Well, that's not good either. So there are good things from there. And then gentle parenting, that connectedness, that understanding emotions and being. That is fantastic. I think we just merge it a little bit and then we get the best of both worlds. So I hope, hopefully that was helpful.

Kelly Burst (56:35)

Gosh, that's great. I just want to talk for three hours, but instead I'm going to direct people to your podcast because you have so many. I'm thinking of, like, all the episodes I've listened to and all the things I Would love to touch on, but we obviously just don't have three hours to talk. So maybe you can just tell people where they can find you a little bit. Just like a quick snippet of like what you have to offer. So they kind of have an idea.

Kirk (56:53)

I would just. Just look up the Calm Parenting podcast. You'll find it. It's on Every platform. Celebrate calm.com. i'm really active, reluctantly dragged into Instagram. I told our son last year, I will never do Instagram. And then I started doing it and it has opened up like a whole new world. We're closing in on 900,000 people. And so I joke all the time, like, I am a 58 year old influencer, but nobody's giving me free clothes. So. But. But I'm very. But what I wanted you to know is I'm not that active on TikTok and Facebook anymore because it's just limited time. But on Instagram, when we post, I pretty much answer questions in there and I engage in there quite a bit. But I. Hopefully you find the podcast. I try to make it like 22 minutes long, so it's quick bite. Try that this week and. Yeah. And if we can help in any way, just let us know. Parenting is hard.

Kelly Burst (57:49)

It is, yes.

Kirk (57:50)

And.

Kelly Burst (57:50)

But you're making it easier, so. Thanks, Ellie.

Kirk (57:53)

You're awesome. I want to talk to your mom sometime. You raised an awesome daughter and you need to work on your control issues.

Kelly Burst (58:03)

Oh, gosh, she's gonna love this episod.

Kirk (58:06)

Does she listen?

Kelly Burst (58:07)

Oh, yeah, she does.

Kirk (58:08)

She's proud of her girl.

Kelly Burst (58:10)

Yep, she's good.

Kirk (58:11)

Yeah. Hi, mom.

Kelly Burst (58:13)

Kirk, thank you so much for chatting today. I really appreciate it.

Kirk (58:16)

Thanks, Kelly.