Kirk Martin (2:16)

We want to hear from your son.

Kirk Martin (2:18)

But always respect his privacy, whether he wants to do an Instagram video or.

Kirk Martin (2:22)

Not or be on the podcast. And so last fall, Joe Sanuk, he's.

Kirk Martin (2:27)

The host of the Practice of the Practice podcast.

Kirk Martin (2:29)

He's a therapist, he's got two daughters.

Kirk Martin (2:31)

He said, hey, I really want to interview you and Casey. I want to hear from him. And Joe asked great questions, right? Like, hey, do you remember when your.

Kirk Martin (2:40)

Dad Made that shift. How did that affect you?

Kirk Martin (2:43)

What did you learn from watching your father navigate fatherhood and masculinity? Casey's answers actually surprised me.

Kirk Martin (2:51)

I hadn't heard him say some of these things, so I said, man, I.

Kirk Martin (2:55)

Really want more people to hear that. So I asked Joe, hey, can I.

Kirk Martin (2:58)

Replay that podcast on our podcast feed.

Kirk Martin (3:02)

So our listeners can hear from Casey? So I hope you find this very enlightening and helpful. It's a good one to share with.

Kirk Martin (3:09)

Husbands because there's a lot about fatherhood in there. A couple quick notes.

Kirk Martin (3:13)

One, we have a live free event.

Kirk Martin (3:15)

In Frisco, Texas, north of Dallas on Monday, March 2nd from 6 to 8pm look it up on the website celebrate calm.com.

Kirk Martin (3:23)

We'Ve got a big winter sale going on.

Kirk Martin (3:25)

If you need help with that, email Casey.

Kirk Martin (3:27)

And we've got the ad free version.

Kirk Martin (3:30)

Of this that's available at the website as well. Okay.

Kirk Martin (3:33)

I hope you enjoy this podcast as.

Kirk Martin (3:35)

Much as we enjoyed recording it with Joe.

Joe Sanuk (3:39)

And so my 11 and 14 year old girls now, I now have stories and I'm so excited. Today I have Kirk and Casey Martin, who are the father and son duo behind Calm Parenting podcast, a show that's reached millions of parents looking for practical, empathetic strategies to manage behavior without yelling, shame or punishment. Together, they've built Celebrate Calm, a movement helping families rethink discipline, emotion regulation, and the parent child dynamic. What makes their story unique isn't just their expertise. It's their relationship as a father and son. They model a kind of emotional intelligence, humility and openness that's often missing in culture, cultural narratives about masculinity. Casey and Kirk, welcome to the practice of the practice podcast.

Kirk Martin (4:23)

Joe, it's awesome to be here.

Joe Sanuk (4:25)

Thanks. Yeah. Well, let's, let's start with you, Kirk. Tell us a little bit about your involvement with the podcast.

Kirk Martin (4:34)

So kind of started with my dad, who was that old school, authoritarian career, military kind of my way or the highway approach. And so like when you were teaching parenting? Well, I became a father for the first time to the young man next to me. And we always like to joke that Casey came out of the womb with boxing gloves on because he just loved to argue. And I thought, oh, I'll just do what my dad did with me, I'll shut that down. And the strong will kids just fight twice as hard. And so what I learned was it wasn't about changing Casey's behavior, it was learning how to control my own. And that's what ultimately changed our relationship and kind of launched us on this path was there's one person in life that I can control, that's myself. And that's the quickest way to change your child's behavior. So parenting for me became more about kind of coming face to face with my own immaturity and breaking some of those generational patterns. So hopefully when Casey becomes a dad, he's not as much of a jerk as I was.

Joe Sanuk (5:38)

Casey, do you remember when there was like a shift from kind of that old school approach to a more calm parenting or was it kind of slowly integrated in?

Casey Martin (5:46)

No, it was a very distinct shift. The first, I would say like the first eight to 10 years of my childhood. I mean, my dad was always a good involved dad, but he definitely had those harsher patterns from his dad for the first like eight to ten years. So we would butt heads a lot. And then around the time I was 8 to 10, he started to shift into controlling himself, being a little bit more, I don't know, conscious and taking interest in, in the way that my brain worked, which was very different from. From his. And so there was definitely a shift there around the time I was 8 to 10.

Joe Sanuk (6:28)

Yeah, I know that it was probably six months ago. I was interviewing someone and that's, you know, when you're a podcast where you get to interview all these amazing people and have all sorts of self learning and they were talking about kind of the danger of matching a child's emotions, you know, the kid escalates, you escalate. And so I really started to just notice that in myself. And even just the other day, my 14 year old was having a really tough time. She had had, you know, an overnight from the weekend and was tired from that. They made a whole tube of cookies and ate them all. And so it was just like everything was set up for her to have a temper tantrum like a two year old on Sunday night. And she did. And it's like for me to just think through, I don't need to match that, I don't need to control. That was newer for me. Not that I would escalate to that full level, but definitely going to like Western Michigan University, which is a behavioral psychology program where it's like reinforcers, punishers, like very clear type of thing that was hard for me to shift away from as much of giving consequences in those moments. I'm wondering, as you guys have explored on the podcast, what have you seen shift in how you think about parenting? Kind of the typical view of parenting is often kid does negative behavior, kid gets Negative consequence. Is that still true? Has that shifted?

Kirk Martin (7:46)

I think, Joe, for me, like, the kids we work with are very strong willed kids and consequences don't work. They just don't care because they don't care about losing stuff. They care about losing their autonomy and their agency. So you'll see these kids and maybe one of your daughters is like this, where you say, hey, if you do this, this is a consequence and they'll.

Kirk Martin (8:07)

Like, think it through.

Kirk Martin (8:08)

Like, yeah, I think it's worth me continuing to do that. I'll take that consequence. And so I think the big shift that I've seen, especially when it comes to men, is from my generation, kind of that very authoritarian. I'm going to shut that down my way or the highway approach. It shifted now. I think it shifted a little bit too far the other way. And this is where men get left out is a lot of moms now talk really sweetly to their kids all the time like this, and men just won't do that. And so a lot of men are like, hey, if I can't yell and scream, I'm also not going to talk like this. So where we come in, I think where we resonate a lot with men is it's a podcast by a guy with a son. And we can model, hey, I can be the calm, authoritative leader. I can be tough, but I can also be patient and understanding. So for us, the shift we try to get is right in the middle between the two extremes, if that makes sense.

Joe Sanuk (9:13)

Yeah. Casey, I'm wondering, what did you learn kind of from watching your dad navigate fatherhood? Masculinity.

Casey Martin (9:21)

The biggest thing, honestly, is just humility. To be 8 or 10 years old and watch your dad go from a guy who yells and just barks out consequences all the time to a dad who kind of steps back, tries to understand your behavior, and give you tools to work through things rather than just barking out consequences was huge. So to watch that and realize, okay, you can step back, humble yourself, learn new skills, that was huge for me. And that's also what helped build the relationship very. I mean, it was kind of subtle, but, like, realizing that he cared enough to change the way he was doing something to make our relationship better. And now as an adult, I appreciate that a lot more because I realize how difficult it is to change patterns. You know, as an eight year old, you're kind of like, okay, cool, my dad's a lot nicer now, but as an adult, you're like, okay, he had, you know, 30 years of handling conflict this way. It's hard to shift that. So that was. That left a huge impression.

Joe Sanuk (10:40)

Kirk, how did you shift that?

Kirk Martin (10:43)

I think it was the first realization of, I shouldn't fix this kid, and it's not my job. It's my job to work on my own issues, because I just did a podcast or a video on this. Of basically what we end up saying as a man is, hey, child, you need to behave. Because I didn't do the hard work to work on my own triggers. So you need to behave so that I don't react right. It becomes kind of. I don't want to be harsh, but it becomes kind of selfish, right? Like, hey, child, because I can't control myself. You need to control yourself so I don't get angry. And so the other part, Joe, which is very liberating, is you can't really change the behavior of another human. I mean, if you try that with your two daughters or your wife, it's not going to end well for you. Everybody's going to be frustrated. But if I. So what I started to do is say, why don't I take all that energy that I've put into building my career and put that energy into just changing myself? And I began with simple things like, okay, I'll do the opposite of what I normally do. Instead of walking to a room like this, standing over my son, I'll walk into a room and sit down. Because it's really hard to yell at someone when you're sitting down. It just changes the dynamic. And then it became addictive because I was like, wait, I'm not even trying to change him anymore. And his response to me is changing. And I did that solely by controlling myself. That gave me a lot of power, and it was kind of a really cool insight.

Joe Sanuk (12:24)

Kind of reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George Costanza decides to do the opposite of everything, and he's, like, highly successful and gets promoted, and everything gets the girl.

Kirk Martin (12:35)

My brother just sent us that clip because everything you ask my brother has a Seinfeld reference. And when he went up, like, hey, my name's George, I'm unemployed, and I live with my. My parents in the basement.

Joe Sanuk (12:46)

She's like, oh, the vulnerability is so attractive.

Kirk Martin (12:53)

I don't know what kind of masculinity. George Costanz. We'd have to explore that on a different episode.

Joe Sanuk (12:59)

Well, I'm wondering. So, you know, I think for a lot of guys, calm isn't just the absence of emotions. And maybe for a lot. A lot of men, it feels like that's what calm is. You just don't have any emotions and you're just like floating around all Nirvana style. What does healthy emotional expression look like for men and boys from your perspective?

Kirk Martin (13:18)

Okay, I have to admit I am geeking out on Hungry Root because we just realized that Hungry Root allows us to eat meals we wouldn't normally make at home without all the cost and hassle of dragging the family to dinner. The Thai Coconut Chicken bowl with baby broccoli. Oh, my new favorite. While Mrs. Kalm loves the Green Curry Salmon bowl with quinoa. Tonight we're having Garlic Honey chicken with green beans and I'm going to crush that recipe in less than 10 minutes with only 5 minutes of cleanup. We're saving so much money by eating delicious healthy meals and the ingredients are really clean and we're doing that at home instead of eating out. Plus, Hungryroot eliminates those trips to the grocery store when you're just exhausted. You're going to love Hungryroot as much as we do. Go to hungryroot.com calm and use code CALM to get 40% off your first box. Plus get a free item in every box for life. That's hungryroot.com calm code calm to get 40% off your first box. Hungryroot.com calm codecom.

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Kirk Martin (15:14)

Go have a Nilla at utter do this one. I'll do that. Okay. I think for me it like I always say that like you don't become like Gandhi or something like oh, nothing bothers me. Like I am still very intense. But I've learned how to channel that. And for me it's like you can feel frustrated, angry, anxious about your child's behavior. You just don't want to react out of that because it just sabotages every interaction. Because all that happens is I escalate. Like with your daughter the other night, like, if you would have reacted to her attitude, it just would have escalated and you would have had like a three hour meltdown. And so for me, it's part like.

Kirk Martin (15:57)

A lot of it.

Kirk Martin (15:58)

I was raised kind of with that like servant leadership thing of like, okay, I'm the guy, I'm confident. I always tell guys, like, don't take things personally. Like, you're. I wanted to use the F word there. But like you're a grown.

Joe Sanuk (16:11)

You can. We'll just put an explicit on there.

Kirk Martin (16:13)

I will. No, I don't need. But sometimes for emphasis, like you're grown up in men. Like, stop taking it personally that a 4 year old or a 14 year old was sassy or had a little attitude. It's like, what did you expect from your 14 year old daughter after she had been up all night and eating. So, Joe, I think, you know, one thing that helps men when I talk to them is almost treat your kids like they're your colleagues at work. At work, when things go wrong, we're not like, you know what, sales are down, everybody's fired. If you don't start selling stuff. No, we walk through and we're like, okay, let's problem solve. Why are sales down? What's going on? But when we come into our home, it's like, there are Legos on the floor. Why aren't you doing anything? And then we escalate. So I use the example sometimes of like an ER doctor, right? Like an ER doctor late at night brings in a patient that's bleeding. They're not like, what were you doing out this late? Why did you get shot? You're making my emergency room all bloody. Good job. That's what we do to our kids all the time. Like, what were you thinking? Instead, the ER doctor slows their world down inside, takes the vitals, stabilizes the patient and then problem solves and leads their team. So I found that analogy for guys is really helpful of like, treat your kids issues like you do at work or like a quarterback does. It'll go much better. So I don't know if that means.

Casey Martin (17:42)

I mean, for me it's not. I still get frustrated all the time. I still have anxiety all the time. We still get into little arguments, all like, I'm in a different, I'm in a different stage. I don't have kids, I just got married last year. But for me, a lot of it is learning how A it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to talk to older mentors or a therapist about, okay, I'm really struggling. I get angry in these situations and I end up taking it out on my wife and then just learning tools to, okay, I'm going to feel the anger. I know I need to take 15 minutes to go on a run or go do something that kind of relaxes me or before I like remove myself from the situation and then connect with my wife versus, you know, the initial blow up reaction.

Joe Sanuk (18:35)

Yeah, you know, with my daughters, you know, we often talk because I'm a single dad and have primary custody of talking through, just like you're a roommate to me. There's that side of it that like, if we look at that category, we've got to keep up with the dishes, we've got to keep up with food, we've got to go grocery shopping, we've got to get laundry put away. Like that's roommate type stuff. And there's an expectation of, for your age as 11 or 14, there's certain things that you do, you know, just to be a good roommate. So sometimes it'll even be right now you're not being a very good roommate. Like it's just tough to live with you, the way that you're acting over dishes. We all have to help with dishes. And then there's other things that are more, you know, family connections type of things. And there's other things that are more kind of training them or teaching them about the world. You know, we have this thing where since they were really little and I don't know if I made this up or picked it up from someone, but I always say, you know, you always have three options because when I was a kid there was just, you listen to the parents and. Or you get in trouble. There's no nuance to it. And I hated that because there were times that I got really far on a video game and I wasn't to a place that I could save it. And it was time for dinner. I just needed two minutes to get to that final spot where I knew I could save it. And so, you know, with the girls to say, you know, if I ask you to do something, you can say yes, you'll never get in trouble for that. You can just say no outright and you'll probably get in trouble for that. Or the third option is you can respectfully advocate for your position if you do that in a calm voice. If you advocate and say, hey, I'm two minutes away from the end of this Netflix show. I'll help set the table at that point for dinner. Yeah, if you do that in a calm way, it's a lot easier to then let you have that flexibility. And for me, then when I have those moments where I'm like, no, this is just a hard, like, no, you can't do that, or I need you to do that. I'm not using that card all the time. So then they know, no, we seriously need to get in the car now. Like, we can't be late to this thing. Drop everything. Like, we need to hustle. What are other things like that that maybe you guys are seeing as you explore these topics?

Casey Martin (20:39)

I would say, I mean, honestly, something that we used to do a lot and that I would talk to kids about is learning how to disagree, agree respectfully. So kind of what you were talking about with advocating is like, I had a curfew that I disagreed with wholeheartedly. And like, what teenager doesn't disagree with their curfew? But I disagreed with it. I wanted a later curfew. But eventually it came to, hey, mom and dad, like, I would like to earn a later curfew. What can I do to earn that? Something I started doing was coming home a couple of minutes early each time so that my parents learned that they could trust me to come home on time. And you could apply that to video games or screen time. It's like, if you have 45 minutes, get off after 42 minutes, come down, show your parents you can control yourselves, and then they're gonna trust you with maybe a little bit more freedom. And that's kind of. We did that a lot where it's advocating for yourself but also asking, okay, what do I have to sacrifice to get more time playing video games? Or so that you trust me. Going out with my friends, that was.

Kirk Martin (21:53)

Highly effective and manipulative. He knew what he was doing. He was smart about that.

Joe Sanuk (21:58)

What I love about that is that then it also makes the parent think, like, why do we have a 9:30 curfew? Why do we have a 27 minute limit on video games? To then say, like, what are the actual concerns here? For them to think through it on a deeper way that maybe they haven't.

Casey Martin (22:16)

It also gives your kids a chance to learn how to sacrifice for future gain. So, I mean, that was a huge lesson for me.

Kirk Martin (22:26)

The other one we would do a lot was, well, I mean, our ultimate goal, yours, like, for your two daughters, is for them to be independent and control themselves. Right. So it was always that thing of, like, I don't want to be the boss of you, like, I want you to be the boss of you. But oftentimes, like I was just thinking with your teenagers, if they, Sometimes when our kids open up to us, we do that initial, oh, let me give you lecture 43B on how to choose good friends. And then they shut down. So oftentimes I'd say, you know what, I appreciate you sharing that with me. I've got some ideas about that. I need to go get started on dinner. I'm going to be in the garage. If you want to hear my ideas sometime, come get me. Well, now, I'm not forcing my ideas on the child now. Later, if they do come to you, they may come and say, okay, what are your stupid ideas, dad? And then you have to not take it personally because they've just opened up and said, okay, what are your ideas? And I found sometimes that helps a lot better, especially with teenagers in that space. But all the things you're saying, it's like problem solving with your kids and treating them kind of with respect and like adults like you believe they're capable of having a rational conversation. I just think it works a lot better.

Joe Sanuk (23:40)

Well, even recently, so this school year, my 11 year old really wanted her own alarm clock. And it's like, great. Like, I, I don't want to be having these fights to get you out of bed in the morning either. So got, she got her own alarm clock. She's been awesome with it. And then I had a early morning stomach scope. I had to be at like 5:45am or something super early. And I just, my parents were out of town, you know, it just didn't work where I could have someone come over. And I think, no, I think we had to leave like 6:30. So it was like an hour before she had to be out of bed. And so we talked through it with her alarm clock and then having her iPad as a backup and then having another alarm that went off when she's supposed to leave to walk to school. And literally she did the entire thing on her own. Flawless. And this was a thing that I just thought, oh man. Like, I didn't, I didn't know how it was going to go. But since then, since that kind of brave independence that she had every morning, she started waking up earlier so that she just has more time. She's realized she likes that autonomy. She's doing her own breakfast, she's getting herself ready. Literally she just knocks on my door and is like, dad, I'M headed downstairs and it's gone just in like a week from me getting out cereal and things to her just doing it all. And I think a lot of times parents, especially in this generation, I mean, I see so many parents carrying their kids backpack to school and which sometimes are really heavy and should happen, you know, because these kids are carrying a lot of books sometimes. But it's like, you know, to just see how accommodating to kids. Oftentimes this generation of parents are that independence point. I think oftentimes this generation of parents is often missing. I'm wondering when you specifically, when the two of you look at kind of redefining masculinity and virtues for this generation of parents, like, what would you want to include? What would you want to leave behind? And even knowing Casey, you're recently married, to know what do we hope would be the virtues that are passed on and things that maybe we can say that served that last generation, but it maybe doesn't serve us as well anymore.

Casey Martin (25:44)

A few things from me, I mean, the willingness to admit that you're wrong, that's a huge one. I strongly feel like your generation, no offense, I don't want to lump you all in, but there wasn't a lot of like, yeah, I'm wrong about this. Let's talk about a different way forward. So just being able to humble yourself and admit that you're wrong.

Kirk Martin (26:08)

Are you thinking of your uncle?

Progressive Insurance Announcer (26:09)

Yeah.

Joe Sanuk (26:10)

Yeah. Never You? Probably not. You actually.

Casey Martin (26:13)

Actually, you were right.

Kirk Martin (26:14)

Yeah.

Casey Martin (26:15)

He can never admit that he's wrong. He won't. Don't send him this episode. Maybe we should being willing, willing to ask for help. I think leaving, I mean, jumping into.

Kirk Martin (26:28)

No, go.

Casey Martin (26:28)

Okay, yeah, yeah, let it fly. I kind of want like masculinity in a sense. Like, personally, I want that to be measured by like, what are the relationships that I have? How are my friendships? How's my relationship with my wife? I want a relationship with my kids when that happens. So kind of all of that I would probably leave behind everything I did, everything that. No, no, no. You know what?

Kirk Martin (27:02)

I have seen that, Joe, because people get on like the millennials and younger generations, but they're very self aware in ways that like we weren't until like I was like 45 or 50. Like, they have good, honest discussions. Casey has like deep talks with his friends.

Casey Martin (27:18)

Like vulnerable, like my guy friends. We, I mean, most of us go to therapy, we tell each other that we love them. I don't know that that was a thing in your generation. If you ever said that to your friends? But, like, no, they just did a.

Joe Sanuk (27:32)

Good golf shot, which really meant, I love you, man.

Kirk Martin (27:36)

I gave him a fist bump. I was vulnerable, honey.

Casey Martin (27:38)

But it's like. And we're pretty intentional about keeping in touch and talking regularly. Friends that I had in college, that we all live in different places now, and we'll talk every week, and we're very open about our issues in our relationships, ask each other for advice and thank each other for the support. And, yeah, every call ends with, I love you. Like, thanks, man.

Kirk Martin (28:04)

It's really cool, Joe. You know what? It's so different from, like, what you see online with, like, the toxic masculinity. I watch Casey and his friends, and they're awesome. Like, and I hang out with a lot of the younger people. They're so much more in tune with stuff, and they work hard, they're responsible. It's like they took the good parts of my generation, and then they've added to it, like, emotional intelligence. And so I think it's a really good balance that they have. And they have life balance, which I used to get upset. Like, you don't get work life balance till you're 50 and you're bitter.

Joe Sanuk (28:39)

Right?

Kirk Martin (28:39)

Like, that was our thing. And I think they're making good choices with it. So I kind of have a more positive view of where men are going with that. And I've seen a shift in our work, and I've had to address that on the podcast, because my generation, it's like, hey, don't be such a hard. You know what? Like, you gotta humble yourself a little bit. And then his generation, our younger parents, it's kind of teaching them sometimes to even be a little bit tougher. So it's swung. But I think they're getting a really nice balance with it.

Joe Sanuk (29:14)

Yeah, I'm glad you bring up kind of that toxic discussion and kind of the culture wars of it. It feels like there's this binary choice. You're either, like, this traditional male that's toxic, and on that side of it, you have a trad wife. And then on the other side, you never stand up for yourself, and you just let your feminist girlfriend or wife just steamroll you. And you don't. But you try to be emotionally intelligent and. But you know that, like, you understand your power and your privilege and all that. And it's like, neither of those are in and of themselves. Right? Like, how do you guys think through kind of those binary choices of what manhood means?

Casey Martin (29:54)

I mean, I think they miss A lot of things, like you can be strong without being closed off. You can be secure, you can be assertive without being like creative cruel to other people. It's kind of a blend in it. It definitely like it feels like it forces you to choose between two extreme ideas that don't really work instead of integrating it.

Kirk Martin (30:20)

If I'm being honest, we just don't experience those. I mean you see it online but like in our daily life, in our work. I'll tell you to the one, the one that gets me more upset. It's an email we got this morning from a mom. So son is stealing, taking money, lying about it. And then in the middle of the email it's like, oh, well, my husband thinks that our son is just rude, spoiled, disrespectful and lazy. And I'm like, I'm not going to address the lying issue because this is not a behavior issue, it's a relationship issue. Like the problem isn't the kid here, it's that you have a husband who's not willing to humble himself and admit until the husband, until that dad starts to view his son in a different way, we could stop the lying, but then he'll probably start vaping or using drugs. Like so that's the more common thing we get is that like if I had one thing I could change in our country or society, it would be the dads who probably didn't have good dads, who have dug in and are like, well it's the kids fault if they will just change themselves. They will radically change their families. So that's what I see more than I'm kind of curious to meet like a total toxic male alpha. Because you know what, I did a video on that once of the guy who like gets up at like 4:30 in the morning and is out at his like deer blind and hunts, which I think is cool. But I'm like, you're not doing anything hard. You're getting up in the morning, you're being alone, you're not talking to anybody, which is what you're really good at as a guy. And then you're killing an animal. Like that's not pushing you out of your comfort zone. What I really want to see, alpha male is you come in after a long day at work and their Legos on the floor and your kids are screaming and your wife is at that time of month and you handle that well. That's way more impressive than like killing a deer. Way harder than doing it. So that's kind of where it's really.

Joe Sanuk (32:29)

Interesting that you talk about kind of that difference between what you see online and the actual reality that you see. Literally the last episode that I recorded, last hour that, you know, for the listeners was, you know, late Last Week with Dr. William Brady. He's one of the foremost researchers on outrage, and he's a psychologist that was basically saying the same thing, that what we see online, we just can't believe anymore that we're getting all amped up over these things that really aren't true and that the outrage algorithm is just amplifying things. And I mean, that idea of, you know, when I think about the alpha males in my world, you know, they're the guys that are really involved at school. They also, every Monday and Friday go cold plunge in Lake Michigan after school, drop off. And they, you know, all are like lifting weights more than I like. They're the warrior class, but they're also the ones that do pick up most of the times at like 4 o' clock and are there, you know, on field trips and are volunteering. And it's not that. Just like, they're a cold plunge, bro. They're nuanced. And I think that it seems like oftentimes when we just lump men into those categories, it's this shortcut that's just not accurate.

Kirk Martin (33:41)

Yeah.

Casey Martin (33:42)

And then when you're just critiquing it, there's no positive template for what to do. Like, what should, what should masculinity look like? And I would be curious of your opinions on that. As a father of two daughters who are coming into their teen years, like, what are you wanting to teach them about men? Like, what, what do you want them to, like, what's, what's your kind of view on that?

Joe Sanuk (34:10)

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, and I always love when podcasters flip the script. That's awesome. You just can't not ask questions even if we're being interviewed. So I think for me, I think through it from a few different angles. One is definitely a safety angle. And so, you know, my daughter, my 14 year old, she right now is working on like an after school thing in the evenings where she's helping with the set design for the High School Musical. And that gets done at like 9 o' clock in Michigan. It's dark, the school is walking distance, but, you know, it's a few blocks away. And so talking through, like, can she be on the phone with someone that she trusts? Can she have a flashlight? Just knowing, you know, what to do in unsafe situations, you know, my Youngest daughter is really into taekwondo, so hopefully at some point she'll be able to fend off, you know, whatever may happen and recognizing that, teaching them more about just having a good sense of the people around them, you know, having good friends, having red flags for guys that don't respect you early on, it's probably not going to just be some random person that pulls up and does something negative to them. So I think there's the safety side of teaching. I think that also as parents, when you think about, you know, Casey, what you took away from your dad, there's probably like two or three big life lessons or big kind of types of things you took away from childhood. And so for me, both my parents are firstborn. I was the firstborn of firstborns, the oldest cousin. You connect the dots. It's all true. So one of my big life lessons from childhood was that the achievement equals love. My parents would be mortified if they said that, if they heard that I said that. But it's one of those things that I internalize, that I've had to deconstruct it. All sorts of different things. I want my kids to take away. Things that I intentionally say I want you to take out of childhood. So one thing is I want them to be able to talk to anybody. With the rise of AI and the rise of technology, I want them to be able to talk to anybody. So that then defines my behavior. If we're going to say my partner Claire over to her parents house and maybe there's going to be some friends there of her parents, girls, what can you do to engage with these people? What can you ask them? They're brand new strangers, they're, you know, in their 70s. On the surface it seems like you don't have a lot in common. But what can we talk about? Where do you live? What kind of things are attractions in that town that people like to come to? What do you spend time doing on the weekends or throughout the week? Do you have any travel plans coming up? We have some travel plans. Let me tell you about spring break. So kind of having that back and forth in the car right there to just constantly be saying you should be able to talk to anybody, you should be able to carry on a conversation with anybody. Because AI is probably going to take away the job that you think you're going to have in 10 years anyway. So if you can talk to people though, like to me that's one of the best things that they can do. So I think, I think through things that way in Regards to like, what values do I want them to take out of. Out of childhood?

Kirk Martin (37:10)

Okay, that's awesome. That was a big one with Casey of teaching what you were saying, being curious about other people, which is why he turned it around on you and asked you a question.

Casey Martin (37:19)

Yeah, but it's like go into any situation and like my goal is to find out three interesting things about this person I'm talking to.

Kirk Martin (37:28)

Yeah, that's cool. You're a good dad, Joe.

Joe Sanuk (37:31)

Oh, thank you, Kirk. You do.

Kirk Martin (37:34)

You're a good dad. I mean, it's awesome. So.

Joe Sanuk (37:38)

Well, I want to ask. So let's talk about dads that have their kids still in the house. But I also want to drill into a little bit of like adult relationships and that shift. But thinking about dads who have their son in the house, you know, so they're under 18. I'm not talking about the 34 year old still living with you. Nothing against that if that's the world. But like, you know, for young kids, what are things that fathers can do to start to reconnect more with their sons?

Kirk Martin (38:05)

Do you want to do or you want me to.

Casey Martin (38:07)

You go for that one.

Kirk Martin (38:07)

I'd say one is take an interest in what your kids are interested in. We always had. So Casey struggled in school with behavior because he was a jerk. And so. I'm kidding. No, he just struggled because he didn't want to be in class. He's got too much energy. And so rather than the weekend being like, let's talk about your misbehavior and what you need to do. We'd have agenda free time. And so when he was little, he was big into like cars. So we would go to car dealerships and test drive cars. And I hated it. But it was a way to bond with him and we have a lot of great memories from it. So I think that two from men I give are. Be interested in what they're interested in. Just know that you're going to hate their interests for the most part because they're going to be some. They're going to like music that you don't like. Except I got lucky. Casey liked good music.

Casey Martin (38:57)

Notice that the definition of good is what the parent likes. Of course.

Kirk Martin (39:02)

I mean, come on. Classic rock and blues music. I mean, come on.

Joe Sanuk (39:05)

And I mean, I gotta, I gotta say, there is something about my daughter being into Rage against the Machine in Eminem right now that is very like oh my gosh and Radiohead. It's like I am very happy that she's not just into, like, kind of the bubblegum pop.

Casey Martin (39:19)

You're blast.

Kirk Martin (39:20)

Yeah, that's a good. Huge. Yeah. Casey took. When he was 10, I took him to a Metallica concert. And I wasn't even into Metallica, but I wanted to fight against my own, like, upbringing of, like, he's gonna go to hell and worship the devil if you listen to Metallica. So I took him. So. And it was awesome. And then 20 years later this last year, he treated me and took me to see Metallica.

Joe Sanuk (39:42)

But anyway, it's funny you say back in 2021, 2022, my dad and I went to see Guns N Roses together. And it wasn't even, like, a band that the two of us knew the other person really liked. We weren't like, oh, we're all like Guns N Roses people. Like, I. I liked a lot of their hits, but it wasn't like I loved. Loved them, but it was just, like, a fun thing to do together.

Kirk Martin (40:06)

It's a bond. So I'd say bond over that and then ask your kids to teach you something. Because when you're a parent, it's all about, got to do this, do this, and you're teaching them. But when you allow your kids to teach you something, there's some measure of, like, bonding that happens. It's really, really cool. And once you have that bond, then you can be tough with your kids. They'll listen to you because they respect you, but I think it's because you first kind of respected them, if that makes sense.

Joe Sanuk (40:35)

Love that as adults. On Friday, my dad and I are getting breakfast together, and he and my mom both help out a ton with the girls. So I see them several times a week. But what are things, you know, maybe Casey, that you think sons, adult sons can do better to understand their fathers, even if they see the world differently?

Casey Martin (40:56)

Coming to the table with a little bit more humility and curiosity. I think we have a tendency to be young and idealistic and think that we know everything. And there's a whole generation of wisdom out there. So kind of the same thing. Like, what. What are your thoughts on this. This situation that I'm experiencing? Or what was your experience growing up? Our parents have vastly different experiences than from us. Like, my dad and I went on a hike last week and spent an hour and a half talking about how his. The relationship between his dad and your. You and your three brothers. So. And it's something that I can barely comprehend because.

Kirk Martin (41:44)

Because he has a perfect father now.

Casey Martin (41:48)

No, but it's. The experience is completely different. So I mean, asking more questions. And I mean, kind of as an extension of the golden rule here. Like, we all want our parents generation to understand our beliefs and our views on things. And maybe we're a bit more, like, progressive and, like, liberal as a cult, as a younger culture. Culture and feel like you guys don't understand that. But we also don't really make a huge. I'm generalizing, but my friends and I don't always make the greatest effort to understand why older people believe what they believe and even just acknowledge and respect it and say, you know, we disagree on that, but that makes sense.

Kirk Martin (42:33)

Like, given your history, given your upbringing, it makes sense. Like, we talk about it, like, with a couple of his uncles, like, I'll explain our childhood. And it's like, oh, given what they experienced with my dad, it makes sense that my brother would respond in that way. And so. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Your friends need to do a little bit more. Asking me questions, like, I could actually help them. Yeah, but he's got good friends.

Joe Sanuk (43:00)

Well, the last question I always ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Kirk Martin (43:07)

Oh, you want me to go first?

Joe Sanuk (43:08)

Oh, yeah.

Kirk Martin (43:09)

I'd say trust your instincts. Just trust your instincts and. And go with that. And don't overthink your answers to things. Trust. Trust what you know and share that. And I think that authenticity is what people relate to more.

Joe Sanuk (43:27)

It's a good one.

Kirk Martin (43:28)

Yeah. Okay. Come up with your house.

Casey Martin (43:29)

Come up with mine. One. Jeez.

Kirk Martin (43:34)

I. Sorry.

Casey Martin (43:36)

Spit something out. Keep it. Just my.

Kirk Martin (43:41)

When you went to see a therapist, what was it that you liked about that one lady that you saw?

Casey Martin (43:49)

Honestly, that she was just extremely open and made me feel comfortable just acknowledging what I was going through. The number one thing.

Joe Sanuk (43:58)

Normal. Thank you.

Casey Martin (44:00)

That was helpful. The most helpful thing, the first time I went to a therapist was just realizing that, oh, you're struggling with these things, and that's like, totally normal. So it's very basic. But just starting out the relationship that way makes especially men who may be coming from a more critical background feel safer opening up about things and realizing that other men also struggle with.

Kirk Martin (44:32)

Good answer, Casey. Good answer.

Casey Martin (44:33)

Thanks for prompting it. Sorry.

Joe Sanuk (44:36)

So awesome. If people want to follow the podcast, follow your work. Where should we send them?

Kirk Martin (44:40)

Just look up the Calm Parenting podcast or we're@celebratecalm.com so awesome.

Joe Sanuk (44:46)

Thanks so much for being on the show today.

Kirk Martin (44:48)

Hey, enjoyed it, Joe. Thanks.

Casey Martin (44:49)

Thank you, Joe.