Alana Levl (2:43)

Yeah, Kirk speaks to parents of what he calls strong willed, defiant kids. Kids who know just how to push our buttons. We all have one. But his point isn't to change who the kids are, because that's impossible. It's to control our own behavior so our buttons can't be pushed and we can lead our kids towards fewer power struggles and ideally a deeper connection.

Milano Buckley (3:04)

What's unique about Kirk's perspective is that it comes from his own struggles with his son Casey, and then after that, years of running camps with his wife for strong willed children.

Alana Levl (3:16)

Here we go. Our conversation about the calm parenting movement with Kirk Martin.

Milano Buckley (3:25)

Well, this is exciting for me. I mean, I, I feel like I'm, I get like a private one on one with my mentor, my parenting defiant children mentor. Yes. I'm one of your people. You don't know that.

Kirk Martin (3:39)

I didn't know that. That is awesome.

Milano Buckley (3:40)

I do listen to you all the time and I've done a lot of work outside of listening to you, and I have gotten a lot of great nuggets from you. And the one most recent thing that I was blown away by is this idea that these defiant children, I mean, the reason we lose our calm is because they push our buttons and they're testing us. And if you don't have buttons to push, buttons can't be pushed.

Kirk Martin (4:10)

Yeah.

Milano Buckley (4:10)

It's like, wow. And so I've literally. And if you do have buttons to push, then it's not about why are they pushing my buttons or how do I get them to stop pushing my buttons. It's like, what are those buttons?

Kirk Martin (4:24)

Okay, so we'll set the stage with. The kids we work with tend to be these really strong willed kids. Right. And they're, they're bright kids. They wake up in the morning, they have an agenda, and their agenda usually involves nothing you want them to do. So these are kids who are going to push your buttons. They're like little cops, judges, and attorneys all rolled into one. There are kids who don't respond to consequences that well. And so they are experts at pushing your buttons. And so early on in our, kind of, in my transformation with our strong willed son, it was, we just need to change that kid. Until I realized he's like my therapist at age four. Right. Like he's pushing all these buttons like that I didn't know existed. All of the immaturity, my immature responses coming out. And so when I finally flipped that script a little bit and was like, oh, it's not about me changing my son. He's kind of been given to me because now I have a chance to grow up because we have this illusion, like we're raising our kids, but in some ways they're kind of raising us in a sense. But when you can really embrace that and say, oh, where did that button come from? Why does that trigger me so much? What can I learn from it? Can I sit in that? And man, it changes you. And then this is weird, but your kids will end up watching you be transformed right in front of them. So rather than that old school approach of like, I'm the authority figure, I'm going to change these kids my way or the highway. Which just doesn't work with strong willed kids because they just fight you harder. It's like, no, I get to become a new person. And that kid, that child who is so challenging becomes a gift to me.

Milano Buckley (6:13)

And you're modeling change, you're modeling the plasticity of behavior and the brain and choice, right? Like, I choose to be different. And that's, that's an example right in front of their eyes that they can sponge up and manifest themselves.

Kirk Martin (6:32)

You're living out in front of them. I have triggers. So one of my, when I updated some of our programs recently, you know, we all do like schools do behavior charts and behavior charts never work with strong will kids because they just show up to school, they're already on yellow, right? They're never getting the green side. They're like, screw it, if I'm going to be on red today, I may as well double down and make it a bad day. And so the idea was instead of just having like a behavior chart measuring outward behavior, what if you had a trigger board in your home? So mom, dad, you list your triggers, and then the kids, you can list their triggers. What bugs you a lot? Well, I don't like transitions, changes in plans, being late. And the funny thing is, parents are always like, well, then aren't I like sharing too much with my kids? I'm like, they already know your triggers. Like when your parents are in a hurry, we rush our kids. Come on, gotta go, gotta go. Move, move, move. And our kids always move more slowly. So to be honest and say, hey, have you ever noticed when we're kind of in a rush, I start to kind of yell at you. I get this really anxious voice and I push you and then you go more slowly, oh, that's my trigger. Because when I was a kid, if I was late, I got yelled at by my dad. And so I wanna break that trigger. So from now on, instead of pushing you, I'm going to Lead you more. Well, it's not like they don't know that already. And now your family is now working on each person's triggers. Like with the kids, it's like, hey, do you know why changes and plans really mess you up? It's because you've got this really busy brain. And a lot of our ADHD kids and neurodivergent kids have these busy brains. Everything feels like it's out of their control. So they try to control people and situations and so to give them insight to know, hey, you're not a little jerk. You just have this really busy brain and things feel out of your control, which they are in your childhood. So you like to control other things. Here's a different way you can start handling that. And now the child knows. Oh, so there's nothing wrong with me? No, you're just a normal human. You just struggle in this area. And here are some practical ways that you can handle that so it doesn't sabotage your relationships in your life for like the next 60 years.

Milano Buckley (8:50)

I love what you said about the trigger chart. I've never heard that before. And also just the, the anatomizing of the scene of the morning rush scene of getting out the door. Because by naming all these things, you take some of the charge away from them, the power, and you disrupt the dance of I'm gonna say this and then you're gonna do this and then I'm gonna raise my voice and that, you know, that whole dance that I think we all have in our households and our families. So you're disrupting those patterns. And then everything kind. The whole thing changes. Like you've changed the shape of the whole thing.

Kirk Martin (9:29)

Can I share a really cool one with that? With that whole idea? So relentless arguers, many of us have those kids, right? And so the scene is, I come home from work and my son's waiting. He's like, dad, you've got to take me to the store. And I was like, I don't do demanding. So I walk away. I go up to my bedroom, child follows. I double lock the bedroom door. My son goes out, climbs up through the second floor window, comes in. Because these kids are relentless and persistent. And so I have two options. Why can't you ever take no for an answer? Why do you always have to argue with me? And then it's this reactive, in a way, shaming. I'm shaming you for your very nature. Why do you have to be you? You're annoying. And I get it. Moms and dads like it's really hard. But instead, what if I said, you know what I admire about you and love about you? You are persistent when you want something. You are single minded, you are focused, you are determined. Harvard studies said the number one quality necessary for success in life is just pigheaded, obstinate, and just going for it. And you do that. So when you come into my room, the last 43 times you have done this, here's how it's played out. I say no, you keep going. You get frustrated, and then you call me names, you say disrespectful things. And not only do you not get to go to the store, but you lose many of your other privileges and, and you end up in tears. And I don't think you want it to end that way. So I want to give you an opportunity to rewrite the ending to this scene. And so I'm empowering them. I'm teaching them. I know why you're doing this, because you really want this. And I like that quality. How it's about to play out is not going to work in your favor. If you notice, the tone of voice to me was Strong will kids is incredibly important. I am not a big fan and I don't mean to offend anybody, but I'm not a big fan of the modern day. Well, honey, you know, you don't talk to your mommy like that because a strong will child is going to be like, just did, like, what are you going to do about it? And so I, I'm, I'm reading life to them. Hey, here's it's about to work. Now, here are two other things I know about you and I love doing this. You love money because a lot of our kids are entrepreneurial and you have a really big heart. Never toward us, but towards strangers. They love you. Because strong will kids are awful for their parents and great for everyone else. So leave out the sarcasm. But you've got a big heart and you love money. So I'm going to go downstairs and get started on dinner. I'm going to the garage. Why don't you think about a new ending to this story? Because if you want to come downstairs, I bet we could brainstorm five different ways to earn some money in this neighborhood. And with that money, you buy your own video games, your own toys. So now I've turned something that was me against you. You're annoying. Stop. Into. Oh, I know why you're doing that. Let me show you a different way to use that skill to get what you want.

Alana Levl (12:34)

Kirk, one of the things that I loved about what you just said is that there can be many. So strength in. In the voice that you're communicating with your kids, that it. That it's not all like, mommy thinks this. Because I want to talk a little bit about co parenting and the people that were parenting with, in my case, my husband. And one of his objections to everything we're talking about is that he thinks he. He does. He's a loving, awesome dad who sometimes gets loud, as you would say, he gets loud and yells. And he thinks that kids need that sometimes. So in other words, our three kids have two different energies coming at them. And I don't. I'm not. I don't want to misrepresent what's going on. It's not an abusive situation. But here I am trying all of these techniques that you're talking about, and he's. He's still yelling.

Kirk Martin (13:30)

Okay, so I'll give you three things. One is. Will validate him, right? Like, honey, like, his intentions are good, right? Like, he's a good guy. Because I don't want to come in with like, you know what? You're ruining the kids, which is what I say.

Milano Buckley (13:45)

You are doing so much damage. You think you are doing so much damage to these kids.

Kirk Martin (13:49)

You pay for this. In all seriousness, at some point, right? If there is damage being done to the child, their confidence in that relationship, at some point down the line, you have to say that. Let me do that as number four. So number one, I want to validate because, look, I'm a guy. Our dads didn't teach us this. All we learned as boys was, you compete and win. Well, that doesn't work really well for relationships. So we're not naturally that awesome at it. And sometimes we feel like it's too big a lift. Like, you want me to change my entire parenting paradigm? It's like, I'm out. Like, at least he's engaged, right? Like, a lot of men just withdraw and go to the basement. So engage. Good. Two, I would use an analogy because men in every sphere of life respect other men who stay cool and calm under pressure. We don't want our platoon captain in war saying, oh, my gosh, they're shooting at us. What are we going to do? But the best one is a quarterback. In football, a good quarterback, when the team is losing, doesn't come into the huddle and yelling at his team. You don't know what route to run. You keep fumbling the ball. Let's go score. Nobody's following that quarterback you want the quarterback who walks into the huddle and says, guys, we're down by two touchdowns. We're going to march down the field, execute our play, score, get the ball back, and score again. And everybody follows that. And so in business, it's like at work. And here's a really good analogy for husbands. At work, do you walk around in yelling at all of your colleagues and subordinates? Because if you do, you're a jerk, right? But you don't, because with a colleague or a subordinate, you say, hey, that last project, not up to your standards, because you're capable of much more. Why don't you come with a walk with me? I'll give you some tools and show you how to do it differently. But as men, as soon as we walk through the door of our home and there are Legos on the floor or mess, we freak out and start yelling. So we use the analogy. And then I would just say, hey, look, your way has not been worked. It's not working. The kids aren't listening. They're pulling away from you. So for the next week, could we just try doing this? See, a defined time period.

Alana Levl (16:03)

I love a defined time.

Kirk Martin (16:05)

It's more than, honey, we need to listen to this guy's podcast and go through his programs and do everything. It's like, I'm done for the next week when our son, our daughter, pick one of them, a situation is doing X, walk into the room and talk to them almost like you're a colleague at work, where you want to problem solve. Because, hubby, you've got superpowers at problem solving. That's why the company pays you so much money. But at home, you don't problem solve. You're kind of creating problems like you're escalating. So kids are upset. Walk in, sit down, or for the next week, just affirm them for every good choice they're making. And I bet they start to work harder for you. That's where I would start. In the end, if a husband doesn't change and there is damage being done, I do prefer. As long as it is safe for you as a woman, emotionally and physically, I'm talking to the broader audience. As long as it's safe for you. I like talking to men like men, because sometimes we go, well, honey, I just feel like. And I'm not being jerky, but men tune out with that. I'd rather you say, hey, your way. It's not working. You have this track record at work. See, when things go well at work, you change strategies. But You've dug in, and our child is now nine. And this approach isn't working, so we need to do it differently. And you can threaten, so to speak. Say, like, if we don't, we're gonna have to go to therapy. Because men hate therapy. They really do as they should. You know why? Because we feel teamed up on. Like, we get in there, and now it's like, therapist and my wife against me because I don't have those. You guys are talking some language I don't know. And I'm not saying this to promote my podcast, but the one thing that's different about us is it's a guy hosting a parenting thing, and I talk like a guy. So a lot of guys really resonate with that. Hey, cut it out. The whole yelling thing, you're immature. You need to grow up. And they're like, good. I just needed someone to tell me that. Right.

Alana Levl (18:15)

This might be a stupid question, but. So it's not okay for kids to be receiving different energies from different parents?

Kirk Martin (18:23)

Well, you don't have to parent the same way. I want the male energy at times. So in a situation where our son would tell us this, there were times where it was really nice that mom was really understanding, and there were times when it was really nice when you said, yeah, I know you don't feel well, but we have to go to work today because I believe you're capable. Right. But that's a lot different than, you know what? When I was a kid, we did this, and you're just a slacker and you're lazy. So you could tell your husband, look, we really need some of that male energy. I don't know if that's. I don't mean that to be offensive. Right. Because I know there are women and men with different energies.

Alana Levl (19:01)

Yeah, no, I understand what you're saying.

Kirk Martin (19:03)

Stereotypical one I don't want. Because, you know what's hurt us a little bit is. So we had that authoritarian parenting that a lot of us grew up with. My way or the highway fear and intimidation approach, well, that wasn't good. But our society swung a little bit too much to where we're really sweet and we talk in question marks with our kids. You know what happens for guys, we feel locked out of that. We're like, I'm not talking like that because that kid's walking all over me. So to say, hey, hubby, we don't have to go. I don't want to go Authoritarian. If it's true, you can say, hey, at times, I think I Am too accommodating of the kids. And at times you are harsh and you're out of control when you're modeling for them. Like, how are they supposed to be in control of themselves when the dad in the home loses it? So can we meet in the middle? And you can still be more. One can still be a little bit more understanding. And the other one can be, hey, yeah, I know that's hard, but I believe you're capable and I expect you to get it done.

Milano Buckley (20:08)

The program is the same. The styles can be different.

Alana Levl (20:11)

So helpful.

Kirk Martin (20:12)

Very good way.

Milano Buckley (20:13)

Awesome way to say, hey, can we get a little personal for a sec? Have you. And I didn't wait for you to respond. I know we're just gonna announce that was a rhetorical question. So you and Mrs. Calm, which is genius, by the way. Ever not on the same page with Casey?

Kirk Martin (20:35)

Well, I think she always knew. Because I'm a guy, I instinctively know how to do relationships. Right. So I'm kidding.

Alana Levl (20:42)

That my sarcasm.

Kirk Martin (20:43)

I was watching your face to see how you know what the hardest part was. Kayce, our strong willed son, we have the same energy. And so I could see him a mile away walking into a room. Because these strong willed kids have this look in their eyes. And I was like, I was like yelling in slow motion to my wife, like, don't react. He's coming for you. And she was like, why don't you stop him? And I'm like, because it's not my job to change the kid, right? I mean, we change behavior, right? But I'm like, you have to change how you interact with him. That part, my background with my dad, who is kind of abusive was not helpful for me. But what was helpful was I got early on our son's intensity. And so I was like, honey, he responds to intensities. A quick one. So he would come to the room, eyes on fire, wanting to argue. And so for years, I would respond to it. You can't talk to your father like that, all those things. So one day I apologized and I said, casey, I need to apologize to you. Because for years you've come into the room and done this, and I have given you my intense emotional engagement. Because that's what kids aren't looking for, for your attention. They want that intense engagement. Especially.

Milano Buckley (22:06)

It's a dopamine hit.

Kirk Martin (22:07)

Yeah, absolutely. And your adopted kids and kids with attachment disorders, this is really interesting and important. They don't distinguish between negative and positive intensity. All they know is if I do something wrong, my mom and dad Put their phones down. Look at me. Look at me. And what that registers as a lot of these kids is, I'm at least important enough for you to yell at me. So I apologized and I said, I know exactly what you're looking for. You're looking. In our terms, it would be brain stimulation. You want my intense, emotional. I'm not going to give it to you in the courtroom. I'm not arguing. I'm not going to yell anymore. If you want to go out to the garage and help me with X, if you want to go play, learn a new Zeppelin song on your guitar. Oh, let's go do that. I will give you my intensity in these three different ways. But I'm just. I'm just not doing the courtroom. I'm not going to argue with you.

Milano Buckley (23:05)

I love what you say. The you don't talk to me that way is about respect, right? And how you say, well, you don't have to respect me because I respect myself. I have so much respect for myself. So I don't need your respect. But the way the world works is, if you want me to take you to hockey practice, you're probably going to want to speak to me in a nicer way because I don't roll. That's not how I roll. I love when you say that. So I've been adopting a lot of that. And then there are these moments where I'm like, but actually, you really can't talk to me that way. You know, I do struggle with this sometimes, with applying your wisdom to these real life situations. At the end of the day, I'm still, still the captain steering this ship, and I'm still your guide in this world. And it's my job a, to keep you safe, to keep you healthy, but also to impart some wisdom that I have being alive for 45 years to you about how the world works and how you can't talk to grownups that way and you can't call people fat and you can't make fun of other cultures. And I mean, this is my job as your captain. So how do you square guiding versus control?

Kirk Martin (24:16)

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Kirk Martin (25:35)

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Kirk Martin (25:35)

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Kirk Martin (26:25)

okay, good. So guiding is good, right? I don't like controlling. I don't like lecturing because those lectures just sound condescending. You know, honey, if you talk to people like that, it's like eh. One of my favorite phrases, especially as kids get older is hey, here's something I found in life. When you talk to people in that way, probably going to reject you. You said imparting wisdom. I like planting a lot of seeds. Just talk to them just like you said it there. Hey, this is how it's going to work in the real world. If you talk to other people in that tone, you will get rejected, you will get fired, they will not do things for you. And that's it. Kind of short and sweet. I guess the balance for me is that most of the kids, strong will kids, they tend to know that they're really good for other people. They just tend to be horrible for us right now, some of our kids aren't, but some of it, they will learn from life experience. And so we're like, well, I didn't get to. I didn't get chosen. Okay, so what happened there? And I can take them through and say, well, it's because you were demanding. And people don't like when people are demanding. Can I show you a different way? See that the tone is still, I'm teaching, I'm imparting. I love the self respect thing of like, hey, you can talk to me like that way if you want. Just nothing's going to go well for you. Here's what I know. The last 43 times you use that tone, you are anxious, frustrated, or you're hungry. Because, see, that relates to that trigger board. And so helping them identify their triggers, not like, oh, well, do you want to talk about your feelings? I'm not opposed to talk about feelings, but I'd rather say, hey, that tone usually tells me you're anxious about something or something happened with you and your girlfriends at school. Today I'm going with older kids. I like that kind of takeaway. It's not like, oh, do you want to talk right now? I'd really like to talk right now. It's. Something's going on. I've got to go get started on dinner if you want to come grab me later. I've got a few thoughts that I'd like to share with you. They tend to receive it when they come to you, even if they say, okay, mom, what are your stupid thoughts? Right. And then you have to not be offended, but they're opening their heart rather than, I can't believe that you would talk to me like that. If you talk to other people in life like that, they're just going to, they tune out at that point. Does that make sense?

Alana Levl (28:52)

Yeah. Can you say a little bit more about areas where it's, it's, it's helpful to deliver wisdom to the kids. Like, I love what you say about, like, it doesn't have to be like you're sitting down at a conference table. It can be when you're driving in the car, you know, when you're recalling things from what's gone on during the day over the past few days. I think that's. I found that really helpful. Could you speak a little bit to that?

Kirk Martin (29:15)

Yeah. You guys asked such a good question.

Milano Buckley (29:18)

You're just building us up. Kirk, so nice of you.

Kirk Martin (29:21)

No, it's. That's not building you up. It's true. And that's important is that priority praise and an apology are the same thing. It's an acknowledgement of truth. You guys are very good at this and being curious and that's why people love your podcast. That's not flattery, that's just true. Now, if I say you are the most amazing women I have ever met, that's pretty untrue. But you are. But you are amazing. Just not the most amazing. But. So I forgot your question.

Alana Levl (29:46)

Oh, just yeah, like when to deliver this wisdom to kids.

Kirk Martin (29:51)

Okay. Everybody tells you when kids are upset, get down, look them in the eyes. There's way too much being processed right then. So that's why I like hey, if you want to come color, build with Legos. We have amazing talks with people while we're driving in the car. Precisely because we're not like, let's sit down, let's have a deep talk about your behavior. I like to do it on walks, on drives with older kids. Is a weird one with teenagers. Take them out on a school night some night like when it's dark, like 9 o', clock, go to a taco bell, go to ihop, go to a local wings place. The drive in the dark just helps them not feel like you're staring at me. Plus, teens already feel awkward enough and doing something later at night. The inhibitions are down. I had the best talks with our son late at night when we were out and about. It's worth missing a little sleep to do that. But with little kids, a toddler, I don't sit them down in time out and look at them in the eyes and say, you're going to sit here because they're going to be like, good luck keeping me in this seat. And it tends to escalate. So yeah, I do a lot of sit and color and talk. That works with a 4 year old, a 14 year old. I do a lot of building with Legos because I'm doing something with my hands. I'm not looking them in the eyes. But there's always an invitation. I like the invitation. When you're ready, I'm willing to discuss this. And I like doing stuff in the garage, cooking. Many of your kids, they're not going to clean up or follow a recipe, but many of your kids add kids love to cook. So hands and stuff, very sensory. Perfect time because now you're like, hey, pass me the flower. Grab that. And so you're having this discussion while you're doing other things and it helps them process with your spouse. Never talk to your husband and say Honey, we need to sit down and have a talk about our relationship, I will literally start a fire in the house. But if you were to say, hey, I'm going to go for a walk, will you come walk with me and talk about a couple things? You know what it is for us as guys? We already often feel like we're just not good at this relationship stuff, because we're not. And so when we're talking to you and I read your face, and I read the disappointment on your face, I just wanted to swear there. I just want to say, eff it.

Milano Buckley (32:29)

Yeah.

Alana Levl (32:30)

It's like, immediate shock.

Kirk Martin (32:31)

You met my dad. Yeah, I shut down.

Milano Buckley (32:34)

My best conversations with my husband. Most productive are when we are in the car, like, on a long drive to.

Alana Levl (32:40)

I'm just laughing at my shopping, dinner or whatever. I've been going about it all wrong because my instincts with my husband are like, we gotta talk. Like, I'm just. I'm going at it wrong. Like, exactly what you're saying not to do. I'm like, listen, we really have some stuff to get into. And he does. I can see his face.

Milano Buckley (32:56)

He's like, armor up, armor up. Okay. All systems. We're going into battle.

Kirk Martin (33:04)

It feels overwhelming. And the inherent feeling is, I'm in trouble. I did something wrong. And not just that. I don't know what the heck to do differently. This is the way I am. I did want to. Since you asked me a personal question and disregarded it because you were going to ask anyway, I'll mention something personally for you two. Now, Milano, you have a very strong personality.

Milano Buckley (33:26)

I do. To me, I do.

Kirk Martin (33:28)

I would want to talk to you while we were doing something else because you're kind of strong.

Milano Buckley (33:34)

My energy is so intense. Yeah.

Kirk Martin (33:36)

Now, Alana, you're, like, sweet you. I could probably hand. I'm, you know, I'm not kidding. Know your own personality. And, like, Alana, I could probably have a little bit more of, like, you could disarm me more with. Hey, I've been really thinking some things that I need to work on. And I was wondering. And I'd be like, okay, we can do that. And Milana, you'd be more like, hey, this isn't working. You need to go for a drive.

Alana Levl (34:04)

Yeah.

Kirk Martin (34:04)

And I'd be like, cool.

Alana Levl (34:06)

Just, like, embrace who we are as partners.

Kirk Martin (34:08)

Yeah.

Alana Levl (34:10)

Sibling relationships have fascinated me ever since became. I became a mom. I'm an only child who had three kids. And their conflicts when they were little are the whole reason that I started to venture into the parenting Self help world. I found a lot of your tips extremely helpful. I love the one of, you know, you hear them launching into a battle and just kind of rolling into the room with a light touch like hey guys, you need me to get involved here? You gonna handle it yourself? That, that's been effective for me. But in my particular setup, I have a strong willed child who is incredibly hard on one of the other kids and it stops me up on a regular basis. It's like it doesn't feel like typical sibling stuff. It feels like inter family bullying and cruelty. And I'm wondering if you could give me a few tips on dealing with that situation.

Kirk Martin (35:09)

Good. So two things and then two more. One is for all the moms and dads, siblings are supposed to fight. It's just since the beginning of time.

Alana Levl (35:17)

Yeah. My husband says that to me.

Kirk Martin (35:18)

I'm like, they're supposed to fight like put, put three people in a room for a period of time and we're going to get on each other's nerves. So I just want you to know as moms, like not doing something wrong. It's normal. I think in what you just described with, I think your strong willed son is, it's not even a sibling issue, it's a confidence issue. Right. Like I, and I'm not saying this is your son in general with a strong willed kids, it's. I'm the one who tends to be in trouble a little bit more. I'm the black sheep of the family. Everybody likes the other kid, the siblings more. Well, of course, because they're easier. And so there's this like defensive nature in there. Well, what am I going to do? I'm going to pick on the good, the good child. Right. I'm going to be like, I'm going to take out my resentment. So I don't even view that. Most sibling issues I think are either boredom. So boredom and brain stimulation. I'm bored. I poke my brother. So that's not a sibling issue. That's a stimulate the brain issue. And in this one I think it's a confidence issue. So I'd say two things if we build his confidence. Here's a weird one. I would see if you have this available in your neighborhood. Ask like an older couple. I like using older couples because they've got time and they're not usually creepy and weird and they're affirming and they're really good at handling strong willed kids. See if you can get an older couple or someone down the street to invite the strong willed child down and say, hey, I could really use your help. You've got a lot of energy. You're good at doing this. And have them make up a job. And even if you have to pay the old people like 10 or 20 bucks to pay your son, worth it. Now what happens? Your son goes down to this. Other couples. Or it could be someone at school in the community, a friend that you have that they go over and rake the leaves, whatever it is. Now another adult is saying, hey, wow, you're really helpful. You're really good at this. Do you think you could help me with X and Y? Well, strong willed kids tend not to get a lot of positive affirmation because they're not usually good at behavior or school. And those are the two things we want them to be good at. But now I've got this. Some other people saying, I'm really good at this and having some kind of job outside the home, even if they're like eight, it's their own space. And I know parents think this is weird, man, I would use that older couple, because you've got three kids and so to be able to say, hey, we did this with an older couple in Nashville when we lived there with our son. When your child goes down to their house, it's like, I don't have competition there. It's just this old couple and me. And they will dote on him. They also will not be afraid to say, hey, your mom said you've been mouthing off a little bit lately. You got to cut that out, kid, or you're not coming to our house. And that child, who will never say, yes, ma' am or yes, sir to you, as parents will say, yeah, I'll stop that. Because they like that time. I like space. It's like our morning routine thing with the strong willed child of, like, throw some food outside and have them forage for their food. They'll sit outside in the morning, eat their food alone, and then you and your two easy kids can, like, enjoy breakfast without all the noise and complaining of that child. There's nothing wrong, moms and dads with giving kids some space apart where they have their space in place. Like, this is where I'm good at doing the world. And then when they come back in, that will alleviate some of it, if that makes sense.

Alana Levl (38:42)

That's helpful.

Milano Buckley (38:48)

All right, are you ready for, like, an intense lightning round?

Alana Levl (38:51)

And then we're gonna let you go.

Kirk Martin (38:52)

This whole interview has felt like an intense lightning round.

Milano Buckley (38:56)

When you said that, well, then you're so Conditioned. You're gonna be awesome at this.

Kirk Martin (39:01)

I'm gonna take a nap after this. Go for it.

Alana Levl (39:03)

All right. The thing from your own childhood that you project onto Casey.

Kirk Martin (39:08)

Oh, just purely my dad. My dad's response, Just always never happy with him. Always kind of disappointed and angry. What I did before I changed for sure.

Milano Buckley (39:19)

The thing that you were or still are laziest about as a parent,

Kirk Martin (39:26)

I'd say thing I don't care about so much would be music. Because I was raised kind of fundamentalist in a way. And so can I tell you this quickly? I took Casey proudest moment. He's 10, starts playing ice hockey, comes home with Metallica. I was raised like, you're gonna worship the devil and go to hell. And so I bought him tickets to see Metallica at age 10. He just bought me tickets and took me to see Metallica two night show 20 years later. Coolest bonding.

Alana Levl (39:55)

Wow, that's awesome.

Milano Buckley (39:56)

When you were talking about that, I just had the image of Kevin Bacon in Footloose. Have you ever seen that movie where his dad is a minister and it's

Alana Levl (40:03)

like, no, music is a mystate.

Kirk Martin (40:05)

When I was 16.

Milano Buckley (40:06)

Oh, you did?

Kirk Martin (40:07)

Oh, it didn't go well. No.

Alana Levl (40:10)

The last parenting battle you had with

Kirk Martin (40:12)

Mrs. Kahm, I would say it was over allowing a teenage boy to be a teenage boy. I pulled my man card. He's a teenage boy. If he's not vaping and doing all these other things, I'm pretty happy.

Alana Levl (40:31)

Yeah.

Milano Buckley (40:33)

The parenting thing you knew was bad, but did it anyway. Let's talk about post change. Kirk 2.0.

Kirk Martin (40:40)

Oh, post change. I think the thing that took the longest was the lecturing. The life lesson, going on and on and on. Dad, I got it. Got it, dad. Got it. I was like, apparently you don't got it because you're not changing. Right?

Alana Levl (40:53)

Right.

Milano Buckley (40:54)

So you just need to keep talking. It's like, well, I'm just gonna keep talking until you change.

Kirk Martin (40:58)

Yeah.

Alana Levl (40:59)

Your most annoying parent chore.

Milano Buckley (41:02)

Do you remember? Probably don't have any parenting chores anymore.

Kirk Martin (41:05)

Yeah. You know, it was probably at first, it was just the endless waiting of doing. Oh, you know what it was? Mindless, stupid stuff. Like when Casey was little, like, daddy, you want to play cars? I don't know. Is there a purpose to this? Like, it's really hard as a dad. I had a hard time with that one.

Alana Levl (41:25)

Yeah, I'm not so great at like, on the floor playtime.

Kirk Martin (41:27)

Now I realize I was just a jerk.

Milano Buckley (41:29)

Kirk, you've been amazing. Thank you so Much for your generosity of time and candor and for indulging my intensity.

Kirk Martin (41:40)

There's no indulging. I like that. You guys are awesome. Thank you for doing. I listened to your podcast. You were so good and so helpful for parents, and I just appreciate what you're doing. So keep doing that with intensity and sweetness.

Alana Levl (41:52)

Thanks so much, Kirk.

Milano Buckley (41:53)

I loved meeting you. Right back at you, Kirk. Thank you.

Kirk Martin (41:55)

All right, thanks, guys. Bye.

Alana Levl (42:00)

Well, that was. That was pretty big for you. Kirk is, like, your parenting world guru, right?

Milano Buckley (42:05)

He is, yes. He is like a celebrity for me. It's like, you know, you hear someone's voice. Like, I don't know, like, if you listen to a news program every day and you, like, see that person off the. It's like, what? Oh, my gosh. I'm actually talking to you.

Alana Levl (42:17)

It's you.

Milano Buckley (42:17)

It's you. It's me, and it's you, and we're talking. Yeah, it was very cool.

Alana Levl (42:21)

Yeah.

Milano Buckley (42:22)

And he was so cool and gracious and. And, like, a total pro.

Alana Levl (42:26)

He was lovely.

Milano Buckley (42:27)

Yeah.

Alana Levl (42:28)

This is kind of a basic observation, but I have to say that while I'm all about girl power, it's very refreshing to hear a guy hosting a parenting podcast, you know, just talking like a guy.

Milano Buckley (42:40)

I totally agree. I think that, you know, I think most of these experts Today, you know, Dr. Becky, Dr. Eliza, like, I think a lot of them are saying different versions, slightly different versions of the same, like, truths and concepts, and I think that it's all about delivery and packaging. And I think the way that Kirk delivers in packages just really resonates because he's such a straight shooter, and it's so practical, and it's like, I've been there. Like, I'm not actually a shrink. I'm not actually, you know, I don't have, like, a PhD in early childhood development. Like, I'm not coming from textbooks. I'm not coming from academic training or even clinical training. Like, I am coming to you as a parent who figured this out and wants to share what I figured out. And I'm just going to talk to you straight because I've been exactly where you are. Exactly. And so that, like, that empathy and that compassion and that. That sense that he's literally been, like, walked in our shoes. And the way that he's able to communicate that, I think is so, like, comforting. Reassuring and connecting and empowering.

Alana Levl (43:57)

It's. It's. I don't think you can overemphasize how practical it is. It's like, here are the words you should say in that moment, do not

Milano Buckley (44:04)

say this, say this instead.

Alana Levl (44:05)

And that's really helpful. Yeah.

Milano Buckley (44:07)

Yeah.

Alana Levl (44:08)

We also always talk about how there's a lot of parenting advice out there, but then there are those bare and naked moments when everything you can think of isn't working. And it's like, what now? And he gives such clear direction for those exact moments without any judgment.

Milano Buckley (44:21)

Like, without any charge. No judgment.

Alana Levl (44:23)

No.

Milano Buckley (44:24)

I mean, I don't know. No one outwardly judges, but it's like he's like, just so committed to, like, making it good and right, you know?

Alana Levl (44:36)

Yeah.

Milano Buckley (44:37)

I love that. It's like that he. I mean, talk about bare naked. He's like, so on brand. I mean, he. This whole professional existence for him came, you know, was born of this incredibly bare and naked transformation that he had when his son was nine.

Alana Levl (44:52)

Yeah.

Milano Buckley (44:53)

Which he doesn't totally. He talks a lot about in his podcast, but didn't. We didn't really get into it here. But yeah, basically he was, you know, of the. The former. He was in the former category of, like, you don't talk to me that way. You respect me. You know, like the old school, like, authority, authoritarian parent. Because he was raised in this military household and that's what he was getting. And his whole thing is like, breaking patterns, reparenting yourself. And he did that. And I just. Anyone who's doing that work and bleeding and sweating it out has my utmost respect.

Alana Levl (45:26)

Agreed. All right, everybody, thanks so much for joining us.

Milano Buckley (45:30)

As always, we love you, we thank you, and we'll see you next week.

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