Casey Martin (4:22)

Right.

Kirk Martin (4:23)

And so I'm not saying it's Right. I'm not saying that it's okay if you do that, honey. I didn't say that. I'm just saying this isn't that blatant kind. It's like, get it. It's kind of like when you as an adult have a bad day and you're a little short with your spouse. It's not blatant disrespect. It's just that you had a bad day. So I don't take it personally if it's after school, I come up with a new afternoon routine that doesn't involve asking them, how was school? Do you have homework? You want to get started on that right away? Right. I'm going to change up that afternoon a little bit. There's the other kind. This is what I would call like the sassy little kid, right? Who's kind of feeling his or herself out in the world and thought, like, yeah, I'll just be a little sassy with my parents. Well, you can shut that down right away and I'll go through that in a few minutes. But when I do that with a little kid, here's what I'm hearing. When it's a younger kid, these are usually really bright kids who are really frustrated. They feel confined. And so with that child, honestly, my first response is, I want to give them some challenges. I want to use their brain in different ways. I want to give them some ownership of their choices within my boundaries. Instead of always me being, you have to do this and this and this and this. I paint the big picture and say, hey, here's what I'm looking for. I don't care how you get it done. You want to do it in a weird way, in a fun way. You want to do it the hardest way possible. Go for it, honey. I don't care. The other thing I can do with a sassy little side is I can come alongside of them. Instead of saying, young lady, you're not going to use that tone in this house.

Casey Martin (6:00)

Right?

Kirk Martin (6:01)

Do that and tell me how that works. Right. It just escalates. And they're going to be like, you mean the tone you're using, Mom, Right? And it just goes back and forth. I tend to come alongside the first couple times and just say, hey, just so you know, it's not going to work around here. Right. It's kind of like I'm letting you in on a secret. But. But I hear that tone. I know what you're trying to do. I know you're kind of testing it out. What I want you to know is just not going to work.

Casey Martin (6:28)

Right.

Kirk Martin (6:29)

And so it's kind of at first a little coaching thing of like, I know where this is going. I did that too when I was young. Yeah, it didn't work for me either. Not going to work for you here. What I want to talk about on this episode is usually slightly older kids. Unfortunately, it's not as old as it used to be. Right. The stuff that 15 year olds used to say, now you're getting 8 year olds are pulling out words that I don't even know.

Casey Martin (6:55)

Right.

Kirk Martin (6:55)

And so this is more blatant. So I want to go through three or four different options here. So hang in with me. It might be a little bit longer podcast, but it's going to be worth it. So here's the first one and it's this. I'm going to, as I go through these, I'm going to escalate the defiance more and more. This was a very common one in our home. With Casey, I'd walk into a room or he'd walk into the room and he'd just have that tone. And you know what that tone is? Is it disrespectful? Yes. And so I used to, before I could control myself, I would react to it. You know what? You're not going to use that tone with me. When I was a kid, I never used that tone with my parents. If I would have done it, just let that go. Look, I understand where it's coming from. It's like, I want to teach them what it was like back. Well, there were a lot of things different in olden days. And let me address this again really quickly, especially for the guys who are like, well, at work when we were kids, a lot of things were different when we were kids. We were also outside like 16 hours a day when we were kids. We weren't even around our parents that much when we were kids. And we got all of this energy and angst out with our friends, playing, playing tackle football and running and jumping and playing and doing all kinds of things. And our parents usually weren't micromanaging our lives and other people, coaches and teams and extracurriculars, life was slower. So, yeah, it's a different era and you can't compare. If you want to compare that, then let's just go back to 1584 and see what it was like back then. Right. So it's different. So I get that. So after I started to learn how to control myself, what I most wanted to do with everything that we do Is teach discipline, disciple, teach. That's what it means. I just need to shut that down. I'm going to go through really tough discipline in just a minute. But with my son, when he was being a little bit mouthy, had that tone. I remember exactly where I was standing when I first did this because I was like, yay. I didn't get drawn into an argument, get drawn into the courtroom with a 12 year old kid who would usually win, right? Because I get too upset. So I stepped back because sometimes for me, when Casey had an attitude, I'd step toward him because I want to do the typical right, fear and intimidation. It doesn't work with the strong will kids. So I physically stepped back or took a step backwards and I said, casey, look, here's the deal. I've heard that tone before. The last 83 times I've heard that tone. What it's told me is you're anxious, you're frustrated, or you're hungry. Because those were his three triggers. And now I'm teaching him. You're not just being a defiant little snot. No. You're either anxious, you're frustrated or you're hungry. Something else is going on, son. So two options. One, you may continue to talk to me like the if you want, but I just want to let you know it's just not going to end well for you. See, that's that coaching coming alongside. I know where you're going with this. It's not going to end well. If I were you, kind of step back from that. Option two, if you want to grab some chips, I'll grab some salsa. I'll meet you out on the deck. I'll meet you on the basement. I'll help you with whatever you're struggling with. There was an invitation. There was movement, motion changes, emotion. So I gave him a little job to do. I gave him something to do besides standing there about and going with, we need to have a talk about your attitude, young man. And said, hey, why don't you grab that? I'll grab this. Sometimes, like, you know what, I've got to go run up to the store to grab a couple things. You want to ride with me? We'll grab a couple tacos along the way and there's an invitation to come with me to a new place. And then along the way it can be like, so I heard the tone, what's going on? I want to help you. It's not. What were you, what were you thinking using that tone with your father, with your mother? No, it's I'm curious, Case.

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Kirk Martin (10:50)

I'm curious something else is going on and I want to know what that is so I can help you out with this. One, because I'm your dad and I've got wisdom and I want to help you. And two, I want to keep you from losing all your privileges because if you keep talking to me like that, it's just not going to end well. Does that make sense? I want to de escalate situations when it's like that, and I actually use that to bond.

Casey Martin (11:11)

Right.

Kirk Martin (11:11)

There were situations like that where I could bond with. With my son because he was frustrated and he wasn't mature enough to say, hey, mom, dad had a long day at school. I'm anxious. I'm a little bit frustrated with some things. Could we go for a walk and talk about. He didn't know to do that. Then I. Eventually we taught him how to do that. But again, that's teaching and I'm showing. And we bonded until he learned I can tell my dad anything because he's not going to freak out. That's huge. He's 29 and we still talk about stuff that's really, really hard. And that's what I wanted. Because anyway, number two option, this is a girl who's. I'm just going to use this as a girl. I use this a lot of times at live events when there's like a teenage daughter with her mom, and I'll be like, here's a common teenage daughter with mom kind of thing. And a teenage daughter gets a little bit sassy with her mother. And instead of mom reacting to it, mom can say, honey, listen, I don't need you to respect me. See, I have something called self respect. And here's what self respect is. I can't always tell you what you're going to do, but I can always tell you what I'm going to do. And so if you think that you're going to talk to me like that, if you're going to boss me around, right, and treat me with disrespect, if you think you're going to do that, and then I'm going to turn around and later tonight, get in a car, battle traffic, take you to an extracurricular activity that you're not even good at and it costs too much. I'm kidding. The last two parts were sarcasm. But if you think I'm going to take you and run you all over town after you talk, you just have another thing coming. See, I have too much self Respect. To allow people to talk to me like that and then get walked all over. It's just not how it works. Now, honey, the reason I want you to respect me, I don't need it. I have self respect. The reason I want you to respect me is because it tends to work better for you in life. When you respect your parents and when you respect authority, it just goes better for you. See, I'm teaching. I'm not getting all wrapped up. And I can't believe my teenage daughter would talk to me like that. I'm not talking about my childhood. I'm just demonstrating self respect and I'm drawing clear boundaries there. You can talk to me like that if you want. What I want you to know is there is going to be nothing coming from here. I'm not going to punish you emotionally. I'm not withdrawing my love from you. I'm just letting you know that me turning around and going all do all these things for you, it's just not going to happen.

Casey Martin (13:35)

Right?

Kirk Martin (13:35)

And so you draw. And then with that, you could say, but, honey, what I've noticed sometimes is when you get sassy with me. Something happened at school. What's up? Was it with one of your friends? Is it someone that you're interested in? Is it school? Is it anxiety? Is it that you didn't make the basketball team or the volleyball team? What is it? I'm curious. I want to help. So those two with the teen girl, with my son, those aren't the ones that I really wanted to do, but I wanted to give you a full range. Here's kind of where what we're working with a lot of families on are hearing. This is when teenagers and even younger kids, preteens and even younger than that, are calling their moms a B word, right? They're dropping the F bomb, which is fu. I don't have to do that. And that is outright defiance of, like, I'm getting full of myself. And I think I can push you around because what are you going to do?

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Kirk Martin (17:03)

So two options here. The first I wanted to mention is this, which is really important. If I were working with you. My first question is, is there a serious breach in the relationship between this child and his or her mom and his or her dad?

Casey Martin (17:21)

Right?

Kirk Martin (17:22)

Because if there's a breach because the parents have always been on this child and I'm just going to use this because I'm a guy. This would have been if I would not have changed. This would have been Casey. Casey would have gone down this path because he would have been holding a lot of anger at me because I was all over him his entire childhood. Nothing he could do would please me. I always was negative toward him. Never saw the good things. In that case with Cayce, there would have been a very definite breach and a Deep seated anger. It doesn't mean that this language is justified. It just means that this isn't just pure disrespect. This has the flavor of disdain and, and a deep seated anger over a relationship issue. See, in that case, that's not really a defiance issue. That's a relationship issue. And that happens a lot. And if you're at that place, I encourage you, work on the relationship. If you want to work with me, I'll be blunt and honest and tell you how to do it. But you're going to have to humble yourself, right? And you're going to have to learn how to bond with this teenage child, even though they're very difficult. If you want to do it, by all means, do it on your own. Do it with another counselor. I don't care how you do it. I just want you to get the help. I would start with the NO BS program that we have, which is very much geared toward older kids. It's 25 concrete action steps. It is phenomenal. It is just such a good solid program with 25 action steps and it's so concrete. And I kind of created that one for dads sometimes, right? Because dads aren't going to go through like read a whole book or a whole. Go through 30 hours of information. But when it's concise like that, it's challenging, but it's really, really helpful. So ask yourself that. Is there a serious breach in the relationship? That is. And this defiance is just their immature way of saying, mom, dad, I'm angry at you, you've hurt me. I felt different my whole life. You've always been on me. I feel like I can never please you. So screw you, right? If that's the feeling, let's work on repairing the relationship. Because once the relationship is repaired, then a lot of that language will go away. I hope that makes sense. Here's another aspect of it, and this is where I want to go kind of hardcore is when the kids nowadays, there are some kids who must have picked it up from their friends, think it's cool to talk like that, that there are other parents who allow their kids to get away with using that language. Because let's say your kids are hanging out someone's house and they hear their friend speaking disrespectfully to their mom or their dad and they get away with it and they're like, huh, sounds pretty cool. Think I'll try that out at home, right? So here would be a response. It's not the only response, but I try to like to give you scripts to use and customize for yourself. But here is one that I would use in that situation. Hey, son, daughter. I apologize for leading you to believe it was ever acceptable to speak to me or to your mom, to your dad in that way. You could add this. I apologize for letting you get away with this the previous 20 times you talk like that. That may be necessary, that apology of like, look, I apologize. You've done this several times. You've been talking to us, and I apologize because I did lead you to believe that this was acceptable. But it's not. And I don't know where you got the idea that talking to me or your mom, your dad, or using that kind of language would ever be acceptable in this home. Maybe it's okay for your friends, maybe it's okay on your TikTok videos, but not in our home. And by the way, I don't mind if you say not in my home. I get pushback. Well, that's not egalitarian.

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Kirk Martin (21:31)

You're the parent. Right, I get it. It's our home. You know, from my podcast, I'm very, very much about understanding our kids, and most of these examples have been about understanding them. But please don't apologize for being the parent. Everything you're not. You don't have to do everything. Well, it's our home, too. No, sometimes you have to be direct and say, you know what? In my home, that's not happening. And there's nothing mean about that.

Casey Martin (21:59)

Right?

Kirk Martin (21:59)

We've gotten a little bit too soft with certain things, like, well, you're just talking kind of harsh. I'm not being harsh. I'm being direct. I'm being concise. I'm being decisive, and I'm drawing very clear boundaries that in my home. And if you prefer, in our home, that's perfectly fine, too. In our home, that is not happening. That stops now. I like that kind of decisive language. It is way better than, you know, it's really disrespectful to talk to your parents like that. And if you grow up and talk, well, look, your kids usually don't talk to other people like that. Just you, right? And you go down this path of like, they're going to be like, let me give you a long lecture and try to reason with you and let me. So that you get it into your head that it's not. It doesn't work.

Casey Martin (22:46)

Right?

Kirk Martin (22:46)

And you don't need to do that. That makes you sound weak at times. I want you to be decisive look, let's take it out of this. It's not about like, I'm the authority figure at home, so I'm going to lay down the law. It's not that at all. It's this. I'm the leader in the home and my child, for his or her own good, needs to know that there are distinct boundaries. Because sometimes we've gotten so soft with things and so explaining everything to our children that they don't know where the boundaries are. So it's a compassionate thing to do. Let me make this point too. Here's what I didn't say. You know what, you disrespectful little snot. You've been difficult since, since you came out of the womb. You never did your schoolwork. You leave your stuff all over the place. I don't know how you're ever going to be successful in life. Now, that's wounding, that's personal, and that's mean. That would actually be a cruel statement. You're a loser in life. See, I also, if I were talking to parents, I would also say, I don't know where you got the idea that yelling, screaming, personally belittling your children is ever acceptable. Now I know where you got that idea. Because some of you were raised like that. You're like, well, we weren't defiant like this. It's because my dad didn't put up with that. And I like old school discipline. What I don't like about it was when it was personally demeaning, when it was mean like that, and when it was just plain cruel.

Casey Martin (24:23)

Right?

Kirk Martin (24:24)

I don't have to be cruel. I don't have to be mean. I don't have to make it personal. I'm telling the child, look, in our home, that's not going to work. And that stops now.

Casey Martin (24:37)

Right?

Kirk Martin (24:37)

Does that make sense? I want that distinction to be clear because parents now think it's either or. Well, either I have to be like this and get walked on all over, or I've got to go 1883 and pull out that right. It doesn't have to be either of those. In between is clear, concise, decisive, Right? No pleading. I'm not asking you, please, to respect me. I'm letting you know that's working. So, and let's continue with this. I will give you an opportunity now to calm down, to think, to reflect, and at some point to apologize. If you do that, I will let this go this one time. But if it ever happens again, you will immediately lose your phone, your screens, and you will be Grounded for two weeks. Two weeks. I'm not putting up with this. This is not happening in our home.

Casey Martin (25:36)

Right.

Kirk Martin (25:36)

Does that make sense? I'm not making it personal. I'm not saying you're an ingrate. You're a terrible kid. I hate you. I'm aggravated. I'm drawing a very clear boundary between what is acceptable in my home and what is not acceptable. And I am using very direct language and a very direct tone because it doesn't work to say, you know, that really makes me feel bad and it scares me for your future. No, no, no, no, that's not. I, I don't know where you got the idea that that would ever work in this home. It's not working in this home. Friends may use it. TikTok video people may use it. Not in this home. Because there's consequences will be swift. And we're not doing that now. I can always add to it if I want. Look, I'm okay if you disagree with me. So I We told Casey from an early age, you are welcome and free to disagree with us as long as you do it respectfully. So many times Casey would come and say, dad, Mom, I disagree with your decision on X matter. I'm okay with that. So let me give you a quick one. So he came one time because we gave him a curfew. 9:00, I think it was 9:00 when he was. I forget how old he came. He said, dad, I disagree because I was kind of like the tougher one. Shocker. But, but I wasn't personal, right. It's just 9:00 is your curfew, right? He said, I disagree with your curfew. And I say, well, of course you do.

Casey Martin (27:09)

Right?

Kirk Martin (27:09)

Because you're 12, you're 13, of course you want to stay out later. Right? I'm not shocked that they're not like, dad, you have so much wisdom. I think, I think maybe we should do 8:30, right? Of course they're going to push limits. So I said, case, makes sense to me that you would want a later curfew. So here's how you can earn a later curfew. What I want is this. I don't want to talk about this for at least three days. We had a policy. There's a rule in our home. We do not discuss volatile things like this. If we have a disagreement, we take two days, at least two days to think through it, because I'm not. That's another way to teach impulse control. If he would have come back a day Later, Dad, I want to talk to you about curfew. Not happening. No, but seriously, I want to talk about it. Nope. Rule in our home. Two days to think about things because we don't want to make rash decisions because that hurts people. See, again, that's a drawing, a boundary.

Casey Martin (28:07)

Right?

Kirk Martin (28:07)

Well, that's lame. I'm good with you thinking it's lame. I'm not offended by you. All I know is I'm a grown adult. What I found in life is when I take time to think and process through things, I tend to make better decisions and I don't hurt other people.

Casey Martin (28:22)

Right.

Kirk Martin (28:23)

See, you're not saying, you know what, you're impulsive and you shoot your little mouth off when you shoot your little mouth. See, that's dripping with disdain. And that's your own bitterness. And you've got to deal with that. I'm not dripping with bitterness. Geese. I get it. You want to talk about it now. Not happening. You can talk all you want. I will sit here, stone face. I'll even take notes on what you're talking about. But I will not discuss with you. Because in our home we have a rule that we wait two days. So guess what happens? So this is my question to him. I said, casey, here's what I want to know. What can you do? What can you do to earn a later curfew? And you know, he didn't come back to me two days later. But I noticed the next weekend, started coming home early. 8:53. 8:57.

Casey Martin (29:08)

Right.

Kirk Martin (29:08)

8:54. And after a few times I said, hey, Case, curious, what's this whole coming home early thing? And here's what he told me. And this was probably 17 or 18 years ago. And it's brilliant. He said, dad, I didn't want you to have to wonder if I was going to make it home on curfew on time because all of my friends come home late and make up excuses for why they're late, and then they end up getting in trouble. But I wanted to prove to you that I could control myself so you don't have to. And I said either. You are the most manipulative young man I have ever met. That was part of it or. That's brilliant, Case. You know what? I'm going to honor that. Your new curfew. 9:15. And you know what he said? Seriously, Dad, I came home early a lot of nights in a row. I was hoping you go to 10 o'clock. And I said, casey, my gut tells me you're going to get to 10 o'clock. You keep doing what you're doing, you keep proving. And that was brilliant, the whole focus. He has a program, if you get the everything package or the calm parenting package, there's a CD series, a download for your kids called Casey's Straight Talk for Kids. And he teaches your kids this principle, which is, if you learn how to control your own impulses and emotions, your parents won't have to control you.

Casey Martin (30:39)

Right.

Kirk Martin (30:40)

If you want freedom in your life, demonstrate that you can handle that freedom. And he was brilliant at that. And so that became the basis of that program and all of his school assemblies. And so he eventually, guess what? The more he came home on time and early, the more we trusted him, the later his curfew got. So we ended up turning that into something positive. So I need to wrap this up. Thank you for listening. We covered a lot of ground in 27 minutes and 23 seconds as of this moment. If we can help you in any way, because I know this stuff is hard. Some of you are breaking generational patterns, some of you are overreactive, right? And so in those early examples, you're like, oh, my kids aren't happy doing their chores. And I just get triggered. We need to deal with your triggers. Let's go through that 30 days to calm program. Deal with your triggers. I promise you will be happier the rest of your life, because then other people for the rest of your life will not trigger you every day because you'll be able to control yourself. Some of you are going to have to work on your relationship with that child because that amount of defiance and disdain tells me there's something else going on. I want you to be able, at times step back and say, you know what? This is just a tired kid. This is a frustrated kid. I'm not going to take it personally. I'm going to come alongside that child and I'm going to help them and show them how to deal with their frustration life. And then there's the blatant kind where they just think that they're going to get away with something and pull out that kind of language. I want you to learn how to be decisive, concise, and do that in a very direct tone without making it personal, without being mean. If you have questions, reach out to us. Email Casey C A S E Y at celebratecolm. Com. If we can help you in any way, let us know. It's what we exist to do. Thank you for listening to the podcast. Thank you for sharing this podcast. Love you all. Bye.