Stop Lying & Stealing. Help for Adopted Kids. Alternatives to Spanking? #465

Summary

Calm Parenting Podcast Episode Summary: "Stop Lying & Stealing. Help for Adopted Kids. Alternatives to Spanking? #465"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Calm Parenting Podcast
• Host: Kirk Martin
• Description: Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm, offers practical and life-changing strategies to help parents and teachers manage strong-willed children. With experience working with over 1,500 challenging kids, including those with ADHD, OCD, ODD, ASD, and more, Kirk provides honest and humorous insights to stop power struggles, yelling, and defiance.

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Introduction

In Episode #465, released on April 2, 2025, Kirk Martin delves into the complex issues of lying and stealing among children, with a special focus on adopted kids. He also explores effective alternatives to spanking, emphasizing trust-building and impulse control strategies.

Understanding Children's Behavior: Lying and Stealing

Case Study Discussion ([01:20] - [05:00]): Kirk begins by sharing a real-life scenario where a parent discovers missing $100 bills, leading to suspicion and the eventual spanking and confession of their son. He uses this example to highlight common parental frustrations when dealing with dishonest behavior.

• Key Points:

  • Human Nature and Impulse Control: Kirk asserts that children's desire to take attractive items like $100 bills is rooted in human nature's "forbidden fruit" allure. He emphasizes that such actions are often impulsive rather than malicious.
  • Normalizing Misbehavior: He reassures parents that misbehavior such as stealing, lying, and defiance are typical child behaviors and do not reflect poor parenting.

• Notable Quote:

  • “[...] it's an impulse control issue. It's a human nature issue.” ([03:45])

The Role of Trust in Parenting

Building Trust ([05:00] - [08:00]): Kirk discusses how children's dishonesty often stems from a lack of trust in their parents' reactions. When children fear harsh consequences, they are less likely to be truthful.

• Key Points:

  • Creating a Safe Environment: Encouraging honesty requires parents to create an environment where children feel safe to tell the truth without fear of excessive punishment or shame.
  • Parental Reactions: Overreacting can damage trust, making children defensive and less likely to open up in the future.

• Notable Quote:

  • “I want him to listen to me because he trusts me and he respects me.” ([06:30])

Strategies to Encourage Honesty

Practical Approaches ([08:00] - [11:00]): Kirk provides actionable strategies to foster honesty and reduce lying and stealing behaviors.

• Key Strategies:

  • Apologizing to Children: Kirk suggests parents openly apologize to their children for making honesty difficult, thereby encouraging openness.
  • Casual Conversations: Engaging in relaxed, non-confrontational discussions about honesty during activities like walking the dog or building with Legos.
  • Role-Playing: Practicing honesty through role-playing scenarios to build confidence in children to tell the truth.

• Notable Quote:

  • “I'm curious, why did you do it?” ([09:15])

Special Considerations for Adopted Children

Addressing Unique Challenges ([11:00] - [13:00]): Kirk addresses how adopted children may exhibit higher tendencies to steal or lie, often as manifestations of deeper emotional needs or compulsions.

• Key Points:

  • Emotional Compulsions: Stealing in adopted children can be a compulsive behavior stemming from internal emotional struggles rather than deliberate wrongdoing.
  • Retraining Impulses: Introducing alternative behaviors, such as providing a "treasure box" with acceptable items to divert stealing impulses.

• Notable Quote:

  • “It's something emotional deep down. And it's a compulsion.” ([12:00])

Alternatives to Spanking

Effective Discipline Methods ([13:00] - [14:34]): Kirk emphasizes the drawbacks of spanking and presents alternative, more effective disciplinary methods that focus on teaching rather than punishing.

• Key Points:

  • Ineffectiveness of Spanking: Spanking can damage trust and relationships, leading to increased defiance and shame.
  • Positive Reinforcement: Encouraging and praising children when they make honest and courageous choices reinforces good behavior.
  • Consistency and Calmness: Maintaining a calm demeanor, even when disappointed, helps children feel safe and understood.

• Notable Quote:

  • “That's a higher form of discipline because it shifts it away from about being, changing behavior to being based on a two way trusting relationship.” ([14:00])

Building Long-Term Trust and Respect

Fostering Lasting Relationships ([14:34] - [End]): Kirk concludes by highlighting the importance of building a trusting and respectful relationship with children, which extends beyond immediate disciplinary actions.

• Key Points:

  • Two-Way Trust: Establishing a relationship where children feel they can trust their parents fosters open communication and mutual respect.
  • Role of Consistent Practices: Implementing consistent strategies to handle misbehavior helps in maintaining trust and reducing future incidents.

• Notable Quote:

  • “You can always trust that I have your best interests at heart.” ([14:20])

Conclusion

In this episode, Kirk Martin provides valuable insights into handling lying and stealing in children, particularly adopted kids, by focusing on trust-building and effective disciplinary methods. By avoiding punitive measures like spanking and instead fostering open communication and understanding, parents can cultivate a trusting and respectful relationship with their children, leading to more honest and controlled behavior.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Celebrate Calm: www.celebratecalm.com
• Discipline That Works Program: An updated program by Kirk Martin focusing on effective discipline strategies.

Connect with Celebrate Calm: For more strategies and support, visit www.celebratecalm.com or email [e-mail].

Transcript

[Kirk Martin]

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[Kirk Martin]

So a couple approached me after one of our live events and asked me this. Dad said hey, we had four $100 bills in a cupboard and after selling something and then noticed that three of the bills were missing, our daughter informed us that she had seen the missing money in our son's room. Now I played like I didn't know. I got down at my son's eye level and I asked him if he had taken the money and he denied it. So I then placed him over my knee to give him a spanking and he confessed. And I admit that I was kind of irritated that he lied to my face and then that kind of breaks our trust so I gave him an extra spanking. What would you have done differently in this situation? That is what we're going to discuss on today's episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast. So welcome. This is Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm. You can find us and our big spring [e-mail] so a few thoughts to come to mind. One is I have a very distinct bias here. I expect the kid to grab the $100 bills. I I don't know if you've ever seen $100 bills, but they're really cool looking and it's a lot of money so I'd be shocked if a kid didn't go for that. Since the beginning of time, there have Been countless stories of people wanting the forbidden fruit. It's human nature. My only question is, why did the kid only take 3 of the bills and not all 4? So I want you to know you're not a bad parent if your child misbehaves, takes things, cuts in line, melts down, throws a tantrum, lies and covers things up. I get tired of people judging you as parents because your kids act like kids. That's what they do. So why would this surprise us that a kid stole some tantalizing looking $100 bills? Am I excusing it? Absolutely not. Was it right of him to do it? Absolutely not. I just don't get all that worked up and create all kinds of drama around this. Wringing my hands and talking late at night in hushed tones, kvetching over whether our child is a thief or a kleptomaniac or what did we do wrong? Number two, your child lied. That's normal. And I will just throw this in there. If you have kids who have been adopted, and even if you adopted them from birth, a lot of those kids, I would say a majority of those kids, are probably going to take things and lie about it. It is so very common. And I will tell you, in some ways it's actually a good sign. It means your child has a conscience and knows he did something wrong. He knew he shouldn't have taken the $100 bills because kids from a young age know you shouldn't steal, lie, hit, spit, throw things, say I hate you, mommy, and be mean to others. They already know that. So when they naturally and impulsively misbehave, which is what they're supposed to do. Kids are supposed to be impulsive. 35 year olds aren't. They know instinctively. Oops, I shouldn't have done that. Now I might get in trouble for that and lose my toys or my video games or my car keys. So what do they do? They lie. They to see if they can get away with it. Look, there's no moral ambiguity here. There's no lead for a long lecture about stealing. Please stop with those cringy lectures about. Well, we just need to talk about integrity issues. I hate those. It's not an integrity issue. It's an impulse control issue. It's a human nature issue. So the boy in this story knew when he first set his eyes and fingers on those crisp $100 bills that it was wrong. And that's why he hid them in his room. That's why he lied when asked about it, because he knew it was Wrong. But he didn't want the consequences. He didn't want to get caught disappointing his parents. And in some cases, and this was, I was telling the dad, he was probably afraid of your reaction, as he should have been given that your reaction was over the top. You got frustrated, went too far. He was afraid of your reaction. He was afraid of the consequence you give. So he lied right to your face. Just think about this. Parents often say, well, we have kids who make up stories and lie, and it's a trust issue. I know you do they. That is very true. But I like to look at it from a different perspective. It's often a trust issue because your kids can't trust you and your reaction. They are afraid of your harsh reaction. In this case, a spanking, out of frustration that they cannot trust you enough to tell you the truth. Does that make sense? See, it makes perfect sense to me. And please note this. It's not just that our kids fear the consequences of getting caught. They don't like disappointing us, and they often feel embarrassed and ashamed by their behavior and they want to hide it. Sometimes they fear the anger and they dread the long lectures that we give. Please know also, direct eye contact can be intimidating. Sometimes it's just too intense. And at the time of their greatest shame, we're staring right down into their souls. And that's why I prefer having hard talks while walking the dog together, riding in a car, building on the floor with Legos, coloring, playing catch, working on a project in the garage, cooking together side by side, next to each other. Not me against you. I've talked about this with our discipline becomes, I'm really frustrated at you. And it's me against you. You. And now the child is on the defensive. What were you thinking? How many times do I have to tell you that? And I'd rather come alongside of them and say, look, I'm curious. I know that you know that is wrong to do, and I'm curious, why did you do it? Because it just brings dire consequences upon you. See, most of their behavior, it doesn't offend me, doesn't hurt me. You're just hurting yourself. And so what I want to become is that I want to come alongside and become the trusted person that they can look to to help them stop doing these things. Not just the angry person who's going to punish them. And you've got to watch and see where you got those ideas from, that the authority figure just punishes you. Some of you, it was your parents. Some of you, it was your religious Upbringing. And that will seep right into your own parenting. One thing I had to be aware of is that I was more intimidating than I thought, even when I started becoming the calm dad. Because my dad ruled our home and his four boys through fear and intimidation. It's not my goal. I don't want my son to listen to me because he fears me. I don't want him to obey out of obligation or fear. I want him to listen to me because he trusts me and he respects me. And that respect isn't because I'm the authority figure. It's because I've earned it, because I'm trustworthy. I'm worthy of being trusted. I wanted him to listen to me because he knows that I have his best interests at heart, and I come alongside him to help him. And that might be a little mind shift for some of you. So this week, let's begin practicing this. Create an environment in which you make it easy for. For your child to tell you the truth without the shame and anger and reaction and drama. You want a weird. It's just kind of an odd but effective idea. And I encourage you. Practice this. You could tell your kids this. Hey, I want to apologize to you because I think I've made it hard for you to come and tell me the truth. Because when you do and just fill in the blank, I lecture. I talk too long. I make you feel 2 inches tall. I react and get angry. See, I think that's just good honesty. Because that's what does happen. And what happens with our kids is they get in the habit of lying. It just becomes a reflexive habit for many of your kids. So you could work on this together and tell your kids, I want to practice a couple things. I want you to practice telling me the truth, Things that are hard, things that might you be afraid to tell me. And I promise you, I will not lecture, react, or get angry. See, you're both physically practicing a new skill in your home. I love that. Point number three, this slight game of gotcha here by the dad, that was dishonest, right? You asked him if he had taken the dollar bills, but you already knew that he had. Unless your daughter is a psychopath who planted the dollar bills in his room to make him look bad. So in a way, what you did as the dad here was a form of entrapment. That didn't need to happen. And look, we all do these things. If you know that your child didn't wash her hands or brush her teeth or do her homework, stop asking her if she did when you already knew that she didn't. That is dishonest yourself. It's not a trustworthy way of handling these situations because you're basically kind of asking your child to lie and then you're going to ask, but why won't my child just tell me the truth? Well, do you ever tell your spouse or friends or own parents white lies or just flat out lie to spare an uncomfortable situation or drama? Probably. Look, it would be kind of surprising if at first the kid looked right into his parents eyes and said, hey, I took that money and then I hid it in my room. And then when you asked, I lied and deceived you. Look, I'm picturing the end of a Scooby Doo episode where the kid says, and my evil plot would have succeeded if not for that rat fink sister who ratted me out. And this is. Look, this is possible to do. It is possible to teach your kids to be honest. We got there with Casey by practicing it. A mom just emailed last week and said it worked by changing my reaction. Instead of my kids, they're now being upfront and I honest, I never thought this would work. I always thought they had integrity issues, but it was my reactions all along. You know, for a lot of kids, you know what they they really fear most? It's just our reaction. It's that disappointment, that shame. It's not so much taking things away. Okay, now what about the spanking issue? 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So I don't feel the need to spend a lot of time on spanking because I can give you at least 10, 15, 20 more effective ways to discipline your child. To actually teach without any of the downsides. Because look, the dad in this case gave an extra spanking out of frustration. That's a no go. That is a relationship destroyer. It's humiliating and it's just unnecessary and ineffective. With strong willed kids, it just doesn't work. So do the other 20 things instead. Number five here is what I would rather do. Whether you do this face to face or while playing catch or building with Legos, I would say this kind of in a casual, direct way. Hey, I know you took those $300 bills from the cupboard. I'm not mad. I'm not angry. I get it. I know that you know that was wrong and that's why you hid the bills. Mom and I have to run to the store for about an hour. When we're gone, just put the dollar bills back, $100 bills back where you found them and we won't mention it again. Now that would be a simple, honest way to deal with it. No Gotcha. No big dance, no drama. You give him an opportunity to do what's right and make restitution without making it into some big complicated drama, without putting him in a position to lie again, without having to do the walk of shame in front of everyone. It's kind of a merciful way to handle It. And I know some of you are going to kind of chafe at that. But I guarantee you, you would not want to have your secret adult behaviors exposed because we'll have them. You wouldn't want to have things exposed in front of your family or friends or have to answer for it all the time. You'd be embarrassed and ashamed. We've all messed up. How many of you wish you could have a second chance to right some of your past wrongs? Consider what else we reinforce by handling it this way. I am telling my child, I know you know the right thing to do. I know you're a good kid who made an impulsive choice. I believe in you. That is way more powerful than what we'd usually do with our kids who frequently beat themselves up inside saying, I'm so stupid, I'm a bad kid. So let's consider the two outcomes. Look, I believe in 95% of the cases, the child will just be relieved to have an out and put back the stolen goods. But let's say you come home and the hundred dollar bills are not back in the cupboard. Now look, my initial response would be severe disappointment, anger. I'd be PO'd beyond belief that I went to all this trouble to be kind and patient and calm. And then the little lying thief doesn't even take advantage of my mercy. I would want to run upstairs to his bedroom and lay into him. That's normal. Being calm doesn't mean you don't feel angry, frustrated, disappointment, and have vengeful thoughts. It means you don't act on those feelings because that's what ends up causing pain, broken relationships and situations to escalate. So you take a minute to process this and then you slowly walk upstairs just to slow your confused, angry thoughts inside down. I would consider taking maybe a pencil, paper, crayon or some Legos or something else to my child's room. I'd sit on the floor and begin drawing or building. And I think in this case, I'd let the tension fill the room a little bit. There's nothing wrong with that. See if your child offers up anything. If not, you can start and say, I'm curious why the three $100 bills weren't put back yet. Now, there are 10 different ways this could go. But let's say your child just really digs in and insists I didn't take them. But you are positive that he did. I don't think I would try to reason with him right then. I think I just drop it and let him think about it overnight. I might say the offer still stands. At any point tonight, if you put the money back, this incident will be forgotten and not mentioned again. If you don't, then that is going to affect whether we can trust you from now on. And we will be disappointed. So give that some thought. And I love you. And under some circumstances, I could just leave him in his room to think about it. I also don't have a problem with inviting him to play catch, to watch a video together, to resume your life. In this case, I don't think it's necessary to hang this dark cloud over family life or just over this, though. It would eat me up inside. Like, why is he doing this? Why is he digging in? Eventually you will get the money returned or find it when he goes to school. I doubt you'll get this far. But I would have no problem withholding, buying things for him. Right? Like not talking about starving him, talking about until you get the money back. If you have a friend in the local police department, you could say, hey, if the money is not back in pie tomorrow, we're going to be forced to call the police to come investigate who stole money from our home. I don't really recommend that because it might traumatize your child and I'm not into traumatizing kids. Right, but what I'm saying is you could use an option like that, but I don't think you'll need to. Option two, what I think will happen is you come home from the grocery store and you see the money put back there. Here's what I want you to do and not want to do. Do not make a big deal out of it. No big praise. Look, this kid did what it was expected of him both times. He took the shiny dollar bills. I kind of expect that. Look, do I really expect it? No. But I'm not shocked by it. Right. And then he put them back. And that's what was expected, too, because it was the right thing to do. And you're not raising a sociopath. You're just raising a little impulsive kid. Or maybe a tall impulsive kid. So maybe just a little fist bump in passing and then move on with your day. See, that promotes trust. Because now he can trust that you're not going to freak out when he does tell you the truth and you don't escalate something normal into some major issue and wring your hands and lecture endlessly about integrity and trust. And we can none of that separately from this incident, really begin practicing new skills. We did this in our Home. And it's dorky and uncomfortable at times, but we would role play. Why? Because role play is practicing new behavior. So your kids need to practice verbally saying, hey, Mom, Dad, I didn't do my assignment. I didn't do my chores. Have them practice it. And then you practice not overreacting, not grimacing, not lecturing. And you get to say, hey, that's cool. That takes courage, and I'm proud of you. I like how you handle that. Now, here's something I hadn't planned to do, but we have time. Many of you have those kids who do steal things, and I mentioned adopted kids. I'll give you an example, and you can take this kind of run with it. So we're working with this family and had a daughter, and she would take things from her mom's bedroom. Little jewelry and shoes and trinkets and little things. And so the parents did everything you're supposed to do. Honey, you can't do that. If you keep doing that, you're going to lose X and Y. All those things, they didn't matter. What we have to do is retrain her. Because in a lot of these kids, it is something where they feel a certain lack inside. It's something emotional deep down. And it's a compulsion. It's not like it's a rational choice all the time. And so what we did is we got this little box and we created this cool little treasure box, and we put in it some little trinkets, little cheap stuff from the dollar store. And here's what we said. Honey, I know this is hard. Every time you get that impulse to go up to my room and take something inappropriate, instead, come in, grab two things from the treasure box, and then come and show me what you got. And so what I'm trying to retrain is that impulse that you have is going to be there. I want to grab something. It's physical, it's tactile. I have it now in my hands. And instead of going there, because one of the principles is whenever you tell kids, whenever you say no to something inappropriate, always give them something appropriate to do. And then when the daughter comes and shows, mom, look, with the pretty things that I got, you can say, you know what, honey, that was a really cool choice because I know you really, really wanted to come up here and take something from my room, but instead you went to the little treasure chest. Fist bump, hug. See, we're starting to give intensity and positive affirmation to making the good choices now when the daughter inevitably messes up, because they will. Your kids are going to mess up. Plan for that and take something from mom's jewelry box or some of her clothes. She can go in and say, I get it. That was tough. So what's the appropriate thing to do? And now the daughter goes back and puts it back and the mom, the dad can reinforce and say, I love how you did that. That's the appropriate response. We're not always perfect, but then we make things right. And what you're slowly starting to teach and show your child is you get all of my intensity. You get my intense emotional engagement when you do things well, when you make a courageous choice. And here's one other thing I would add to this. When the child messes up, I would like to teach what we've been talking about here. For her to come and say, hey, Mom, I just took this from your room. And now you get to say, that was courageous because you knew you did something you weren't supposed to, but you were honest about it. Man, that shows me you're really growing up. See how that works? That's how I want to do the discipline stuff. We have all kinds of stuff on this, on that updated Discipline that Works program. But the whole point of that is I want to start teaching kids. And then the main point becomes this. It's not really just about changing the child's behavior, although we did that. It's about building the trusting, the relationship that says, you can always trust that I have your best interests at heart. You can tell me anything, and I'm here to come alongside you and help you. And that is critical when your kids are little and critical when they're teens. And I can tell you it's really cool when your kids are in their late 20s, when they come to you and they're like, mom, Dad, I could really use your help with this. See, that's a higher form of discipline because it shifts it away from about being, changing behavior to being based on a two way trusting relationship. And that's what I am after. So this week, let's practice being the trustworthy parent, the calm, authoritative leader that comes alongside and helps moms and dads keep crushing it. You're such good moms and dads. We appreciate you breaking these generational patterns, working so hard at this. If we can help in any way, just let us know. Okay? Love you all. Talk to you next time. Bye.