Calm Parenting Podcast

Episode #563: When PDA Kids Resist | What My Son Taught Me About Anxiety

Host: Kirk Martin
Date: February 15, 2026

Episode Overview

In this candid and deeply personal episode, Kirk Martin tackles the misunderstood behavior patterns of children (and adults) with Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA). Drawing from his own experiences as both a PDA child and a parent of a PDA kid, Kirk unpacks the nature of demand avoidance, the roots of anxiety, and strategies for guiding—not pushing—kids through difficult emotional terrain. Using stories from his own life and a moving listener letter, Kirk illustrates practical, compassionate ways parents can help their children build resilience, confidence, and deeper connection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What is PDA? Breaking the Stereotypes

• PDA is not about willful rebellion, laziness, or defiance.
  • "Kids with PDA are not rebellious, defiant, lazy, selfish kids who just need tough discipline or more consequences." (11:53)
• External demands, especially when perceived as unnecessary or arbitrary, trigger anxiety and resistance.
• Internally, kids with PDA often place immense demands on themselves, leading to perfectionism and emotional outbursts.
  • "They often place tremendous demands on themselves internally. And that's why you'll see explosive reactions and perfectionism when their projects don't turn out perfectly." (13:03)
• Kids with PDA have big, sensitive hearts and are often misunderstood. Parental and community misunderstanding can be painful and isolating for families.

Kirk's Personal Journey with PDA

• Kirk recounts his lifelong history with anxiety and demand avoidance:
  • As a child: school avoidance, stomach issues, social masking.
  • As a young adult: missing graduation ceremonies, lying to avoid workplace events due to panic attacks.
• Realization of PDA came later in life, after years of self-reflection and professional assessment.
• PDA can be a double-edged sword—its challenges are real, but Kirk reframes it as having advantages when well-understood and managed.

Lessons from Raising a PDA Son (Casey)

• Kirk’s son Casey shares many PDA traits and similar experiences, including burnout at school.
• Without the label of PDA, Kirk and his wife instinctively adapted: balancing the rejection of arbitrary demands with empowering choices and support.
• "We're not outsiders. We've lived this." (10:22)

The Hiking Story: Facing Anxiety Together

[15:30–22:30] Key Segment

• Casey invites Kirk on a challenging hike—steep drop-offs, chains, and all.
• Kirk’s pre-hike anxiety spirals after watching daunting videos, triggering a physiological response.
• The night before, Casey reassures Kirk:
  • "Dad, I've researched it extensively. I know you can do this. Just let me know what time you want to start." (17:54)
  • Notable insight: Casey gives his anxious father control over the start time—demonstrating a sensitive strategy parents can use with PDA kids.
• On the hike, Kirk internalizes his anxiety, gets very quiet—a mirrored behavior in many anxious kids.
  • "You don't have to break this silence, and it's better if you don't." (19:48)
• Unexpectedly, Kirk rushes ahead, creating physical space from Casey. He realizes he needs space to process without the pressure of being watched or comforted.
  • "That sweet voice that we use as parents is also like those early chains. It triggers something that says, oh you should be anxious. And that makes it worse." (23:33)

Lessons Drawn:

• Space and Independence: Both child and adult with anxiety/PDA often need room to process without others’ anxious attention.
• Bond through Shared Challenge: Successfully facing the hike, both father and son gain confidence—the experience euphoria and pride, not from being “pushed,” but supported.

The Power of Leading vs. Pushing

[23:45–31:00] Key Segment

• After conquering part of the mountain, Kirk practices listening to his own limits—stopping at a hut while Casey continues.
• Kirk ties in the importance of honoring both achievement and a child’s (or parent’s) need to rest.

Listener Story: Applying the Tools

• A mother shares how Kirk’s approach helped her navigate her daughter’s PDA resistance to an after-school equine camp.
• She resists the urge to use a sweet, cajoling tone (which triggers her daughter), shifts from accommodating to gently leading, and gives her daughter the gift of independence.
  • She waits in the car instead of accompanying her daughter inside, and both survive—and thrive—through the discomfort.
  • "I could feel my nervous system on high alert. And then it slowly dawned on me that she had done it and I had done it. And an hour later she came walking to the car as if it had been a breeze." (33:11)
• The mom celebrates with her daughter at Steak n Shake, quietly acknowledging their joint achievement.
  • "All I said was we both had done something hard tonight and I was proud of us." (34:55)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Integrity was a distant second to a nervous system on high alert, facing panic attacks. So lie it was.” (09:08)
• “If you dig down deep, what you’ll discover is that they are not actually demand avoidant. No, they don’t avoid demands. They reject external demands that are largely arbitrary and unnecessary.” (12:30)
• “Whenever I’m about to fly or do a hard hike or face my anxiety, I get quiet... We are internalizing this. We are working through it in our heads and hearts.” (19:23)
• “No one likes to be watched when they’re struggling. It’s too much attention. It sometimes sounds like pity. And that’s infuriating because now I would be internalizing and your child is internalizing. I already think I’m weak and not as good as others for being afraid when other people aren’t.” (23:40)
• “Our minds usually project things to be way worse than they actually are.” (26:11)
• “When we give our kids tools to overcome some of these challenges, we’re building muscle memory and experiences… Now you both have that sense of accomplishment and pride and confidence knowing I’m capable of this.” (27:07)
• “This is really hard...But that is how you lead your child through discomfort. And now you both have that sense of accomplishment and pride and confidence knowing I’m capable of this.” (36:32)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – [Ad reads, skip]
• 03:24 – 13:32 – Kirk’s personal PDA story & overview of PDA
• 13:33 – 17:54 – What PDA looks like, debunking misconceptions
• 17:55 – 22:30 – The hiking story: Anxiety, roles reversed, subtle support strategies
• 22:31 – 27:04 – Processing anxiety, impact of parental attention, space
• 27:05 – 31:10 – Post-hike reflections; knowing when to stop; building confidence
• 31:11 – 36:30 – Listener letter: Applying the tools; celebrating small wins

Takeaways & Parenting Tips

• Reject the Deficiency Lens: PDA is not about being disobedient; these are kids with big hearts struggling with anxiety and external pressure.
• Acknowledge Internal Work: A child’s “silence” or apparent avoidance is often deep internal processing and not laziness.
• Lead, Don’t Push: Give PDA children choices, honor their autonomy, and know when to pull back so they can experience their own victories.
• Celebrate Effort Quietly: Sometimes the best support is minimal commentary and honoring accomplishments with small, understated celebrations.
• Model Self-Kindness: Recognize and respect your own (and your child’s) limits—growth happens when we feel safe and understood.

Final Words

Kirk closes with heartfelt empathy for parents on this journey:
“Thanks for working so hard at this. Moms and dads. Let’s work on making some of these small shifts this week. And I bet you’ll see better results with your PDA kids and with all of your kids, because this is just human nature.” (36:00)

For resources and further episodes:
Visit celebratecalm.com, and subscribe to the PDA Parent Podcast for deeper dives into specific topics.