Broken Vows (Rebroadcast)

Summary

---

20/20 Podcast: "Broken Vows" (Rebroadcast)

Original Air Date: August 8, 2026
Host/Producer: ABC News
Summary by: [Your Podcast Summarizer]

---

Episode Overview

This riveting episode of ABC's 20/20 revisits the Pamela Smart case, one of America’s first true-crime media frenzies. Through interviews with Pamela Smart, legal experts, journalists, and those connected to the investigation and trial, "Broken Vows" explores the murder of Gregg Smart, the sensational trial that ensued, and the media’s lasting impact on perceptions of guilt, justice, and redemption. The episode also discusses Smart's three-decade fight for clemency and new self-reflection after years of steadfast denials.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pamela Smart's Denial & Changing Narrative

• Initial Image: Pamela describes how she has been portrayed as a “black widow, ice princess, a killer,” firmly rejecting these labels ([00:35]).
• Current Reflection: After decades, Smart begins to acknowledge her own responsibility, stating, “I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind and my own heart how responsible I was because I had deflected blame all the time.” ([40:02], [80:29]).

2. The Murder of Gregg Smart & Aftermath

• Discovery: Pamela finds her husband dead in their home; the scene is made to look like a burglary ([14:46]-[19:15]).
• Investigation Stalls: Early leads (gambling debts, drugs) all reach dead ends ([19:22]-[19:45]).
• Community Reaction: The local community, family, and friends are overwhelmed by grief and confusion ([23:13]-[24:12]).

3. Break in the Case: The Teen Connection

• Key Evidence: Six weeks after the murder, a man turns in a gun, suspected to be the murder weapon ([27:00]-[28:14]).
• Teen Suspects: Ballistics tie the gun to three local teens—Billy Flynn, Pete Randall, and Vance Latamy—who confess (some via police interviews) to being involved, implicating Pamela as the mastermind who promised payment ([29:09]-[30:10]).
• Motivation: According to police and the teens, Pamela promised insurance money and/or $500 to each teen ([30:23]-[30:45]).

4. Pamela’s Affair & Manipulation Allegations

• Affair Unfolds: Pamela, then 22, admits to having a sexual affair with 16-year-old Billy Flynn, a student she mentored through school projects ([44:03]-[44:09]).
• Predatory Framing: The relationship is discussed as predatory due to the age gap and her authority ([44:03]-[44:09]).
• Manipulation Claims: Teens claim Pamela told them, “The only way we can be together is if you kill my husband” ([39:19]-[39:25], [64:36]).

5. Cecilia Pierce and the Secret Recordings

• Cecilia's Role: Pamela's student intern, Cecilia Pierce, agrees to wear a wire for police and records damaging conversations with Pamela ([45:07]-[47:47]).
• Wiretap Details: Key admissions are captured, including Pamela cautioning Cecilia about what to say and showing concern about being caught ([46:21]-[47:31]).

6. The Trial of Pamela Smart

• Historic Media Event: The trial is broadcast gavel-to-gavel for the first time, becoming a national obsession and a template for modern true crime coverage ([01:37]-[01:47], [55:43]-[57:07]).
• Sympathy for Flynn: Billy Flynn’s emotional testimony, including admitting he killed Gregg at Pamela’s urging, draws sympathy ([64:06]-[68:38]).
  • Flynn’s Quote: “I performed the act...but I never would have done it if Pam didn't tell me to. She was the first girl I ever loved.” ([68:41]-[68:56])
• Defense & Cross-Examination: Pamela takes the stand, admits the affair but denies ordering the murder; is criticized for perceived lack of emotion and “ice princess” demeanor ([69:03]-[71:10]).
  • Notable Quote (Pamela on the stand):
    • “Was killing your husband one of those mistakes?”
      — “No, it wasn't.” ([71:03]-[71:05])
• Verdict: Pamela is convicted and sentenced to life without parole ([73:44]-[74:04]).

7. Public Perception, Gender & Media Influence

• Media Impact: Filmed reenactments, movies (“To Die For”), and saturation coverage shape public perception, often blurring fact and fiction ([01:47], [80:51]).
• Gendered Lens: Feminist voices argue that Pamela’s gender, sexuality, and presence made her the focal “villain,” while her young male co-conspirators gained sympathy and were released earlier ([78:26]-[79:40]).
  • Quote on gendered justice: “Even if you believe she's guilty...the actual killers who said, yes, we murdered him, are walking around and having their lives, and she deserves better.” ([79:28])

8. Pamela Smart’s Life in Prison & Pursuit of Clemency

• Incarceration: Suffered physical assault in prison; later, became a model inmate and earned master’s degrees ([81:31]-[82:01]).
• Petitions & Admissions: Initial petitions for clemency lacked admission of guilt. In her most recent petition, Smart accepts more responsibility ([80:24]-[83:30]).
• Reflection on Redemption: “It means that we don’t define people by the very worst thing they’ve ever done in life.” ([84:45])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Pamela Smart (opening remark):
  “My name is Pamela Smart. I have been portrayed as black widow, ice princess, a killer, and none of those things could be further from the truth.” ([00:35])

• Billy Flynn (confession):
  “I never would have done it if Pam didn’t tell me to. She was the first girl I ever loved. I pulled the trigger. God forgive me.” ([01:24], [68:56])

• Diane Diamond (journalist):
  “Pamela was really the golden girl of true crime in the 90s...she was right up there with Tonya and Amy Fisher. This was the era of the bad girl, for sure.” ([03:10])

• Pamela Smart (on being widowed):
  “It seems like the whole world’s passing by, and, you know, I’m still here.” ([02:53])

• Trial Moment (Billy Flynn):
  “After you pointed the gun at his head, what’d you do?...I said, God forgive me.” ([67:38])

• Pamela Smart (on her sentencing):
  “I felt like the jury was either gonna be hung or they were gonna find me guilty. I thought there was no chance at that point that the jury was gonna say I was innocent.” ([71:18])

• Pamela Smart (recent statement of remorse):
  “I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind, in my own heart, how responsible I was, because the truth of being so responsible was very difficult for me.” ([80:29], [83:30])

• Pamela's Mother (on trial fairness):
  “The three things you’re supposed to do from the U.S. Supreme Court when you have publicity attendant to her, like as in her trial, 1,200 newspaper articles screaming her guilt...and [the judge] refused motion after motion.” ([77:32])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Pamela’s initial denial: [00:35–01:10]
• Discovery of Gregg’s body: [14:46–18:15]
• Break in case: The gun & confessions: [27:00–30:10]
• Cecilia Pierce's wire & key conversation: [45:07–47:47]
• Pamela Smart arrested: [51:10–51:54]
• Trial opens; media frenzy: [55:43–57:07]
• Billy Flynn’s testimony: [64:06–68:38]
• Pamela Smart’s defense: [69:03–71:10]
• Verdict and sentencing: [73:44–74:04]
• Reflections, appeals, and recent statements: [80:24–84:59]

---

Conclusion: The Legacy of the Smart Case

This episode frames the Pamela Smart case as a watershed moment in American true crime storytelling, both for its tabloid appeal and its deeper implications about gender, justice, and media influence. It traces the evolution of both Pamela’s self-understanding and public attitudes toward her, encapsulating themes that resonate in today’s ongoing dialogues about fairness, punishment, and redemption.

---

For listeners and true crime enthusiasts, “Broken Vows” offers a comprehensive, emotionally charged account of a case that still shapes conversations around crime, punishment, and the power of media.

Transcript

[Instacart Narrator]

Instacart understands that not all bananas are created equal. Some people want them green, some want them ripe. Some want them ready right now. With Instacart's Preference Picker, now available at most retailers, you can choose how you like certain items, like banana ripeness, deli thickness, even avocados before your shopper even starts. So instead of crossing your fingers and hoping for the best, you get groceries picked the way you would pick them. It's a small thing, but it makes a big difference. Download the app and get bananas just how you like with Instacart.

[Pamela Smart]

My name is Pamela Smart. I have been portrayed as black widow, ice princess, a killer, and none of those things could be further from the truth.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

And so, just to be clear, did you mastermind the murder against your husband?

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

I did not.

[Pamela Smart]

No, I did not.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That was then, this is now, and. And this is new.

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

Just this summer, I found myself responsible for something I desperately didn't want to be responsible for.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

This story had it all. A beautiful young woman, a seductress of

[True Crime Commentator]

a young teenage boy, and perhaps most importantly, murder.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Pam, did you have anything to do

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

with your husband's murder?

[True Crime Commentator]

People were asking why this happened and why Pam Smart could lure a young man into killing for her.

[Billy Flynn]

I never would have done it if Pam didn't tell me to. She was the first girl I ever loved. I pulled the trigger. God forgive me.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Your trial defined media frenzy.

[Narrator/Reporter]

This was the first trial to be broadcast live from start to finish. Before O.J. before the Menendez brothers, it was reality TV.

[Pamela Smart]

Before there was reality TV.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

So when will it happen?

[True Crime Commentator]

It gets made into a movie. To Die for, which starred Joaquin Phoenix and Nicole Hidman.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Did you get the gun?

[Billy Flynn]

No.

[Pamela Smart]

A lot of people felt like they knew everything about me because they saw the movie.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The boys who actually committed the murder already free.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

How is it fair that someone who pulled the trigger is home and somebody else remains in prison?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

What do you think is your best hope for getting out? So will she do it now after everything else has failed?

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

For me, that was really hard.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

We're going to sit here if that's okay. I know this is not your first rodeo.

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

No, it's not.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It was such a notorious crime that I was really intrigued when she agreed to a jailhouse interview she had been making maintaining her innocence for three decades. We're speeding. We all wondered what it would be like to meet this woman. A woman that a jury was convinced had masterminded her husband's murder.

[Pamela Smart]

It's been, you know, almost three decades, and it Hurts.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You talked about all that you've lost, including the potential to be a mom.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Yeah.

[Pamela Smart]

And that makes me sad because I love children. I wanted to be a mother. And now, you know, I've lost all my years. It seems like the whole world's passing by, and, you know, I'm still here.

[True Crime Commentator]

Pamela was really the golden girl of true crime in the 90s. It was a story we had never really heard before. In the 90s. She was right up there with Tonya and Amy Fisher. This was the era of the bad girl, for sure.

[Cultural Commentator]

And right around this time is when you've got Madonna doing erotica and doing the song. And the idea that women are not the victims of sexual relationships, but they can put notches in the bedpost, same as men can. The reasons why the crime had taken place, the motivations, the passions that resulted in what happened, seemed to fascinate people.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It all starts in Miami, Florida.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Mama said, don't worry about the weather.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

About the weather.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

My name is Diane Diamond. I am a veteran journalist reporter, and I've been covering the Pamela Smart case since the mid-90s. Pamela is one of three children. She has a sister and a brother. Her mother, a homemaker who took homemaking very seriously.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

She was always there, and when we had a problem, we didn't have to wait till she came home from work because she was. She was home.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

My husband was a pilot. Pam loved being with dad. She's very close to him. She was very happy. She was a sweet child. She had a lot of friends, kind of happy.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Go lucky.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

I think so, yes.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Then her family moved to New Hampshire.

[Narrator/Reporter]

This is the American dream. Low crime rate, beautiful parks, greenery. People are friendly. Then came time for college. Pam Smart decides to return to Florida, and she enrolls at FSU.

[Pamela Smart]

When I went to college, I worked three jobs, 52 hours a week, and graduated from college a year early.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Pamela Smart was an overachiever. She received a degree in communication arts, and her goal was to be a television news reporter.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

My aspiration was to be a journalist and to be in the media.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

She wanted to be another Barbara Walters.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Didn't we all? Don't touch that dial. You're listening to WBFS, Tallahassee, 89.7 FM.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She was a DJ on the college radio station, and she hosted not one, but two different radio shows.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I did the rock show at night.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

She loved Van Halen. She loved Motley Crue.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

She got a little top kill.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Her moniker was the Maiden of Metal.

[Pamela Smart]

I didn't go to college and go out Partying. I worked all the time.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

So you skipped adolescence?

[Pamela Smart]

I kind of skipped relationships. I had no boyfriend in college until I met my husband. And that was it.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

In 1994, everybody wanted to hear from Pamela Smart. Okay. She gave her friends first interview to my colleague, Diane Sawyer. Well, no beepers are going to go off. How did you meet Greg Smart?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I met Greg when I came home for Christmas during a break one year. Originally I wasn't attracted to him, but I then became attracted to him.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

What about him?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

He was very outgoing and always smiling. He seemed fun to be around.

[Narrator/Reporter]

He was a rocker. The long hair, the attitude. She loved him.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

She said, you know, mom, he's the one. We liked him too.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Greg of Ham Smart bonded over Van Halen songs like you really Got me,

[Narrator/Interviewer]

girl, you really Got me now.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Hot for teacher.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

I got it, man, so bad.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I'm hot for teacher. Greg seemed very glamorous to her. He had this magnificent head of hair.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

That's the guy Pam told me she fell in love with.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So what does he do? He leaves town and moves to Florida to be with Pam.

There's something very innocent and very normal and very sweet about it. They fell in love, they dated for a while. He came down to Florida to be with her.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

He wasn't interested in going to college. He was just interested in being with Pam.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It's a relationship that heats up lightning fast but fizzles out almost as quickly.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You would never know that in less than one year, Greg Smart would be murdered.

Welcome for the very first time, Mr.

[Pete Randall]

And Mrs. Greg Smart.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Greg and Pam got married on May 7, 1989.

[Narrator/Reporter]

We give them a very beautiful wedding.

[Billy Flynn]

We look forward to having grandchildren.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Pam Smart was decked out like Princess Diana. The big poofy white wedding dress. He was handsome in a steel gray tuxedo.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

When you look at the photographs and the video of that wedding, I don't know that I've seen a happier couple.

[Pamela Smart]

I was only 21 years old when I got married. I was very much in love with my husband.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I thought that Greg and I would have a fulfilling future, that we would have a family and children.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Do you still feel married to your husband?

[Pamela Smart]

I do. And you know, it's weird that you would ask me that because I was just filling out an application for something for in here yesterday and it says, are you married? And I put yes, you know, and date a marriage. Because I am still married. I'm widowed, but I'm still married.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

The couple moved back to New Hampshire.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

They move into a very well to do neighborhood in a beautiful condominium.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Derry, New Hampshire's nickname is the Space Town. It's named because it was the home of Alan Shepard, the astronaut. The poet. Robert Frost comes from there.

[Billy Flynn]

Something we were withholding made us weak.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Pamela got a job with the public school system and she became the media liaison among about a dozen public schools.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She's introducing students into television. She was able to write press releases, she was able to create content. This job by no means was what her career ambition was, but it was a stepping stone.

[Pamela Smart]

I had a very good job. I made a lot of money for myself. I was 22 years old. I had a 40 something year old secretary. I had a job where I had four weeks paid vacation, full medical, dental, all of that. I was my own boss. I really made my own money.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Greg sort of settled down a little bit. He cut off his long hair. He went into the respectable insurance business with his father.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

So years later, when Pam Smart's case is so infamous, there are TV movies being made about it. There's a scene in Murder in New Hampshire where Greg's haircut is made out to be the first sign of trouble.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

I remember exactly filming that scene on the doorstep.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

When Greg comes home, Pam looks at him and hardly recognizes him. He's sure, and he's cut everything off. And instead of being pleased, she's absolutely horrified.

[Instacart Narrator]

Hair? What happened to your hair?

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

No, the barber's still sweeping it up

[Narrator/Interviewer]

even as we speak.

[Cultural Commentator]

He's gotten a haircut because he's gotten a job. Horrified, she goes, you cut your hair?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

And he says, pam, I may look

[Narrator/Reporter]

like Donald Trump, but I still feel

[Billy Flynn]

like Jon Bon Jovi.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She may have dated a rocker, but she married an insurance agent.

Real life sets in. He became an insurance salesman. She got a good job. Pretty soon it was a routine.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

It seemed that this couple had everything going for them. Good jobs, a nice rented home, good furniture. They even had a little dog.

[True Crime Commentator]

So on the surface it looks great. It's just not going to turn out that way.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Greg was working a lot and he would work at night, go to people's homes, pitch insurance policies, and Pam was left alone.

[Psychologist/Expert]

When she first met her husband, he was kind of a rocker rebel, which is why she was drawn to him. And then after marriage, segued into this very traditional role.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Her mother later told me that during this period, it seemed like Pam finally stopped focusing on just work and became more social, but a little immaturely social. She started to hang around with the high school students. When she went to work every day,

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Greg's working all the time. Pamela's hanging out with teenagers. This marriage is getting bumpy.

[Psychologist/Expert]

They were very young, which probably helped their marriage to deteriorate. Clearly there was a dynamic that wasn't

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

working in her first year of marriage. Her husband had come home and talked to her about having an affair. And I think it crushed her deeply.

[Pamela Smart]

I was very much in love with my husband from the time he was my boyfriend through when he was my husband and he had an affair. And when that happened, I was devastated. I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought that I wasn't good enough.

[Psychologist/Expert]

So she was feeling like her husband had betrayed her.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

In that exclusive interview with Diane Sawyer, Pam Smart remembers the night her husband didn't come home from work.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

One night I went to bed and I was expecting him to come home. And when I woke the next morning, he wasn't there. He was out with a friend of his and he had been drinking. So he decided to stay at his house. And it turns out that that wasn't what happened.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

What did happen?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

He had met someone and he had stayed with her the night.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Was he sorry?

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Was it a fight?

[Narrator/Reporter]

What happened?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I was very angry and I was very hurt.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Did it change the marriage?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Well, I believe it made me less trustworthy. It had an effect on my self esteem. I had thought originally that it was just, you know, he and I. And now I realize that someone could come between that and I was scared of that.

[Narrator/Reporter]

When he cheated on her, it obviously broke her heart and changed her, changed the marriage. That's the turning point in this story. His affair.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Pam had no idea that a chance encounter was about to change her world forever.

[Billy Flynn]

I fell in love with her.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

On May 1, 1990, Pamela is at a school board meeting. She gets home about 10 o'.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Clock.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

She goes to the front door and she notices that the light is out. This is odd. And she opens the front door and in the vestibule is her husband.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

She had arrived at her home and began screaming that there was something wrong with her husband.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

She starts banging on doors. Somebody called 911. Hurry. Hurry. My husband. My husband.

[True Crime Commentator]

Emergency.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Yes, emergency in 4E missed Summerhill Condominium. There's someone passed out. I don't know. A girl is hysterical in here. She just ran over. Her husband is passed out.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

I was working as an investigative reporter in New Hampshire and the scanner radio goes off. And we understand that a young man has been murdered inside his condominium.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

The telephone calls that came to the Derry Police Department all came from neighbors who heard her screaming. And yelling.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

You know why he's passed out there, man. He's on the way. Do you know why he's passed out? No, we don't know.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Pamela is outside. She's sobbing. She wants to know what's going on. Is there a burglar in the house? Is Greg okay? Is he breathing? What's happening?

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Pam Smart found his body. He was in the entrance way to his condominium. He was sprawled out on the ground.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

The first thing that we noticed was the body of the victim, Gregory Smart. There appeared to be a blue towel wrapped around his head.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Let's get up. Bullet wound in the back of his head. This is. This looks like a mob hit. This is an execution.

Right away. Police had no idea who could be responsible.

In most cases, pretty quickly, the murders make sense. Somebody's involved in gangs or drugs or there's a history of domestic dispute in their lives. In this case, here's this young man at the beginning of his life and career in insurance. He's not married a year yet to a lovely young woman. And he's dead. The police were groping for leads at the time.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

He had apparently expired. They determined almost immediately.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

Pam called the house and she was hysterical and she screamed into the phone, mom, come quick, Greg's dead. And inside I was trembling and I thought, well, maybe there's been an accident.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

People in that house that night told me that she was a wreck. She was an inconsolable mess.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

She did seem extremely shaken at the time, extremely emotionally distraught.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

She was soaking wet, her clothing from sobbing. We were all a mess. Saying how. Why is it true?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

In that first interview with Diane Sawyer, Pam talks about the tragic night.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

What happened to Greg is the most horrible thing I've ever gone through in my life. And I'm still haunted every day by memories of what must have happened to him inside our house before he was killed. And although I wasn't there, I. I feel that because of that, I'll never know how Greg was feeling at the time. I keep thinking of how afraid he must have been and how senseless this whole tragedy was. A lot of times I still can't even believe that he's gone.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Greg Smart still has on the clothes from work.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

It looks like Greg must have walked into the middle of a botched, screwed up burglary.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

We noticed that several things were moved. The stereo system had been ransacked. CDs were laying on the floor. Pillowcases had been ripped open. The stuffing had been removed. We found that the upstairs as well had been ransacked the dressers had been gone through completely.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

However, police find that Greg still has his wallet. He still has a gold wedding band on his hand. Pamela reported nothing much was missing except a few little pieces of her jewelry.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

This is not a usual burglary. Usually, burglars in this region don't carry firearms or guns. They're not playing on any kind of confrontation at all.

[Narrator/Reporter]

There was no forced entry at the front door or the back door. No signs, no disturbances of someone breaking in.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Something just doesn't seem right here.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

Kitchen chef's knife is stuck into the ground.

[Narrator/Reporter]

He found a marijuana cigarette, a reefer in his car. So they think, well, maybe there's drugs involved. Dead end.

The next lead is that Greg might have had a gambling problem. They search phone records, and they find that he had been calling a gambling service to go to Atlantic City. Maybe he owed somebody money.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Again, dead end.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Nothing there.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

So every single lead that we got, all of them led to dead ends.

[Narrator/Reporter]

At that point, they really are searching and asking the public's help because they frankly don't have a break, and they need one.

A dead body killed execution style. That is a stunner for Derry, N.H.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

and then a few days after Greg Smart's murder, something strange happens at his wake. A group of unidentified teenage boys show up, and everyone's thinking, who are those guys? And what's their connection to Greg?

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

So after weeks of investigating by the police and nothing is happening, nothing is popping, no new information. Suddenly, out of the blue, a man

[Narrator/Interviewer]

walks into the police station with a.38 caliber revolver.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

And he says, this is my gun, and I think it was used in the Gregory Smart murder case.

[Wise App Advertiser]

Support comes from Wise. The smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Are you fed up with losing out the hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way. Wise. You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app now. T's and C's apply.

[Chime Advertiser]

This show is supported by Chime. Let's be honest. No one likes paying bank fees. For a long time, they felt inevitable because every bank charged them. But now there are other options. Now there's Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank. By eliminating fees. That's right. No monthly fees, no minimum balance fees, and no overdraft fees. Instead of fees you get Rewards. You get 5% cash back on Chime Card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries, all the while building credit through regular everyday spending. With no credit check, you can also grow your money faster at a savings rate that's nine times the national average. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spotme lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. Join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com 20 spelled out T W E N T Y. Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes. That's Chime.com 20Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's Bank Partnership Qualifying direct deposits. Required terms and limits apply. Go to Chime.com disclosures for details. Nightmare Next Door, a podcast from ID tells the real stories of murders that sent shockwaves through small town America. On every episode, investigators, witnesses and family members close to the victims discuss the disturbing details of each case and exactly what happened. Peel back the peaceful facade of small towns and find out what secrets your neighbor is hiding. Listen to Nightmare Next Door wherever you get your podcasts.

[True Crime Commentator]

Whenever news breaks, we are here in Israel, a nation at war.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

In Rolling Fork, this tornado tore through this town.

[True Crime Commentator]

From Lewiston, Maine, the scene of a horrific mass shooting.

[Narrator/Reporter]

From the scene of that deadly missile

[Narrator/Interviewer]

strike, ABC News Live everywhere in Iceland. Let's go on the 2024 campaign trail here at 10 Downing street wherever the story is, we're going to take you there. You're streaming ABC News live. ABC News Live.

[True Crime Commentator]

You're streaming ABC News Live.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

ABC News Live. Streaming free everywhere.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Part of me is missing, and that's Greg.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It's gone forever and he'll never be back.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

I remember it was a rather chilly day. It's always kind of very cool in New England. But this day seemed colder to you have all these young people and they're all crying. I didn't want to be covering this funeral. I didn't want to be anywhere near it. Throughout the day. I kept seeing he had this big, vibrant, beautiful smile.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

We can't sleep.

[Pete Randall]

I don't want to eat.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

I don't feel there's much left in my life.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Pamela Smart is struggling, it seemed to me, to even make it down the walkway she was crossing. It was a horrifically emotional moment.

[Pamela Smart]

There is footage of me coming out of the funeral crying so bad that my father's holding me on one side and my sister's holding Me on the other. And I did lose my husband that I did marry, and he did love me, and I loved him.

[Narrator/Reporter]

There's no answers, and the police can't give them any answers. And that made their grieving that much more difficult.

[Detective Pellets]

He didn't deserve this.

[Pete Randall]

All I want is the people who

[Narrator/Interviewer]

did this sent to jail forever.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

All of these people are just shredded, just wracked with emotion over this horrendous thing. Never forget this. It's just a few days after Greg's murder, and my news director goes, I guess you'll be interviewing Pamela Smart today, right? We'll have a story with you and her. And I'm like, yeah, that's gonna happen. He's just joking with me. And honest to God, like, three minutes later, over the loudspeaker, I hear, bill Spencer, you have a phone call. It's Pamela Smart.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Pam gave her first media interview to a local television reporter six days after Greg was murdered.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

She said she wanted to talk to me about the kind of guy that Greg was. She wanted people to know the type of person he really was at that time.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

She appears perfectly together. She has on a prim little outfit. Her makeup is perfect.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I feel like in a whole condominium complex like ours, somebody must have seen or heard something. Everybody's saying they didn't hear or see anything. And I keep thinking that I'll see him, you know, walk in. But every day and every second that passes, I realize that that won't happen. And yesterday I went out to the cemetery. And that's kind of, you know, when it really hit me that he won't ever come back.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

She does appear introspective. She does appear to miss her husband.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

You know, it's awful to just think about what happened in there. You know, the only comfort I have is that, you know, it just seems to have been a situation where Greg didn't know what was happening, and he just never knew, you know, and it was really quick.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

We usually don't like to bring animals, dogs in your interview shot. But Pam invited Haylin to come over, this little fuzzy dog. And we did the whole interview with Haylen sitting right there next to us. She named her dog Haylen because she was a Van Halen maniac.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Sometimes I ask myself, I can't figure out where the strength is coming from, but it seems like it's coming from inside. Maybe, you know, maybe it's a part of Greg that's helping me go on with everything.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The interview kind of comes and goes with no fuss, no new witnesses. Coming forward until

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

the big break for police comes on June 10, 1990, about six weeks after the murder.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Out of the blue, a grown man walks into the police station.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

But it's not the Derry police station. It's the Seabrook police station. It's about 40 miles away, where in walks this man.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

He's carrying a handgun in his hand, and he says, this is my gun, and I think it was used in the Gregory Smart murder case.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They immediately call the investigators in, and this would turn out to be the major break in the story.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

And he proceeds to tell the investigators that he had this gun put away in his house. And when he went to retrieve it, it looked like it had been freshly cleaned, and he knew he had not cleaned it. So how did this happen?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The man tells police that his son's friend, a teenager by the name of Ralph Welch, told him that the gun may have been used to kill Greg Smart.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Police immediately get the gun. They do a ballistics comparison. The two bullets match up.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

The tests show that that gun is the weapon that killed Greg Smart. It is probably the most important physical piece of evidence they're going to find.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

This is big break for the police.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That very same day, June 10, 1990, the police haul in that teenager, Ralph Welch for a videotaped interview.

[Detective Pellets]

Okay, it's June 10th, and it's 15, 24 hours by my watch. I'm Detective Barry Cherowitz, and with me is Ralph Welch.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

So Ralph Welch tells Detective Barry Cherowitz about a secret conversation he had with the son of the man who turned in that.38 caliber revolver.

[Billy Flynn]

So then he told me the story, how it happened, who I was here.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So police get Ralph Welch talking, and remember, he's a teenager talking to cops. And he spills it all.

[Detective Pellets]

He told you the story about what? About how what happened. He told me how they did it,

[Billy Flynn]

how they did what killed Greg Smart.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Ralph Welch tells police about learning of three teenage boys who went to Greg Smart's house that night with the intent to murder him. These are the three boys that Welch names in that interview. Billy Flynn, Pete Randall, and Vance, AKA JR Latamy. It's especially startling because they're just high school kids. Latamy supposedly waited in the getaway car.

[Detective Pellets]

So I went there and they broke

[Billy Flynn]

into the place and they set it up to make it look like a burglar. And I guess a guy tried to run or something, and they grabbed him. They threw his dog in the cellar. Pete said he held the guy's head while Bill shot him.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

The juveniles that were involved in the murder, Beginning with Billy Flynn. All of them had specific problems in their lives or with the police, too. The seabrook police, they were familiar with these. The kids involved already.

[Detective Pellets]

So Peter was the one that shot him?

[Billy Flynn]

No, Pete said he held his head.

[Detective Pellets]

Did he say how he held his head?

[Billy Flynn]

No, he just said he held it

[Detective Pellets]

and Bill pulled the trigger.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

But why? What was the alleged motive? Welch seemed to know that, too.

[Detective Pellets]

Did they tell you anything else about it?

[Billy Flynn]

This was beginning. Some insurance money or something? This is just what they said from Pam. Like 500 or something.

[Detective Pellets]

And $500. Is that what Pam was paying them or.

[Billy Flynn]

That's what they said she was gonna pay.

[Detective Pellets]

And you're talking about Pam?

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Who's Pam?

[Detective Pellets]

The guy's house wife. Okay. Pam smart.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Ralph welch is the first one who mentions Pam smart's name.

[Detective Pellets]

Did Pam pay him? Anything else?

[Billy Flynn]

He just said something about insurance money or something. He mentioned like $500 a piece.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

This videotaped interview with Ralph Welch blows the lid off the case. As police begin to dig, A clue may lie in, of all places, an amateur orange juice commercial that Pam helped some of the high school students produce.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Since the beginning of time, man has enjoyed the taste of pure and natural Florida orange juice.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

The police have finally got a direction in which to to take this investigation.

[Detective Pellets]

This was beginning.

[Billy Flynn]

Some insurance money or something, Pam?

[Detective Pellets]

Like 500.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

This explosive videotaped interview gives police a clear motive and implicates Pamela smart in her husband's murder. Yet it comes as no surprise to police, who already think that Pam has been acting bizarrely from the moment they started talking to her.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

We met with her in an interview room, and she began immediately to tell us. When she opened up the door,

[Pete Randall]

she

[Police Officer/Investigator]

saw that this must have been a burglary because there were speakers off the stand. It seemed kind of strange that she had keyed in on speakers missing from a stand. It seemed at the time that her focus should have been on her husband, who was laying there.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Police noticed that Pam didn't seem to be very emotional when they finally got a chance to interview her Just hours after her husband had been murdered. You weren't emotive enough for people's taste.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Yes.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

What do you make of all that?

[Pamela Smart]

Well, I wasn't very emotional. I think I was in shock.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You know, you were the ice princess.

[Pamela Smart]

Right. And I think that people's perception is interesting because, like, I was watching something where it was jfk's funeral and Jackie Kennedy Onassis was standing there, and she never shed a tear. And everyone was like, she's so stoic. You know, nobody said she was an ice princess.

[Narrator/Reporter]

There was no proof that Pamela Smart had anything to do with this. But her actions really did make a lot of people, including investigators, step back and say, wait a minute. Does she have something to do with this?

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

My law enforcement friends told me that after I interviewed Pam Smart that she became even more of a prominent suspect in their eyes because of what she said in that interview. And they said specifically, she talked about things that she couldn't have known about.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

It just seems to have been a situation where Greg didn't know what was happening.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

She knew critical factors about what that crime scene looked like. How could she talk about what this apartment looked like when she wasn't allowed in there? And I expected that she would be breaking down. And yet that emotion never.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Sometimes I ask myself, I can't figure out where the strength is coming from.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

But the weirdest part of the interview was we were talking about Greg, and she said something to the effect of, if you think about it, this couldn't have happened at a better time.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

You know, there's no better time in his life for this to happen.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

And I said, what? This couldn't have happened at a better time, because if you think about it, had we been married for 20 years, I would have loved him that much more. I couldn't wrap my mind around that.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

When the murder first happened, you brought the media into your home and gave interviews?

[Pamela Smart]

Well, no, I talked to one person, Bill Spencer, and he was hounding every day, calling us, saying that he was running with the store, that Greg owed gambling debts in Atlantic City and he owed money to the mafia. And they were saying, are you gonna give us a comment? Cause if you're not gonna give us a comment, we're running with this story. And it was like, wait a minute. My husband's not even buried. Like, what do you mean you're running with the story? Cause we went to Atlantic City a lot, but he didn't owe anybody any money, and he wasn't killed because of that. I was pressured, basically, to try to defend him. So I did.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

I wouldn't say I pressured Pamela Smart into doing that interview at all. That call came to me. I didn't make the call to her that morning. She called me.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Pam has an answer for everything. The police called suspicious. So who do you believe?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The police definitely don't believe Pam Smart. There's a whole lot of smoke but no fire. Yet they have the videotaped interview from a high school kid. Who said she offered $500 for murder. They find her interview peculiar, but none of this adds up to murder until they make a stunning connection.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So these boys, it turns out, are students at the same school where Pam Smart works.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Not only do these kids go to Winnecundet High School where Pamela Smart works, she's close to them because she's working on a school project. Project with them.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Now there's a connection. There's a connection between the gun, the three boys and Pamela Smart.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Pam meets Billy Flynn through this project Esteem that she is running at Winnicunet High School where she talks to teenagers about their troubles and tries to help them with their issues. There's a gigantic dichotomy between Derry, New Hampshire, where Pamela Smartly lives, and Seabrook, where Billy Flynn and these boys lived. Seabrook is a gritty working class area

[Narrator/Reporter]

and in comes Pamela Smart. And she must have seemed like a fairy princess.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

So Billy Flynn is 16 years old. He's attending Winnicunet High School. He plays guitar, he wants to be a rock musician. There's nothing imposing about this guy. He's a skinny, guitar playing teenager.

[Pamela Smart]

I met Bill, who was kind of making me feel like I was the greatest thing on the earth.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

He was charming.

[Pamela Smart]

He was. And I guess at that point I was so low that I needed that boost.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You were vulnerable.

[Pamela Smart]

Yeah, I was.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Pam learned about a contest for high school kids in which they made a commercial about orange juice. So she got the kids together and said, hey, you can win a trip to Disneyland if you want to make this commercial.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Pam already knows Billy because she's in this project, self esteem with him and she asks him to be the cameraman.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

This put Pam and Billy in very close proximity. She directed it, he wrote the music for the commercial.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

We still need energy and vitamin C to keep in shape and stay healthy. My friends and I start out today the Florida orange.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Huge nutritional way.

[Billy Flynn]

I meet Pam Smart and she's beautiful, she's intelligent, you know, she's an adult and she likes me.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

As the police begin to dig, they can't help but wonder about the strange hold that Pamela Smart has on these teenage boys, Especially the long haired kid, Billy Flynn.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

The cops soon discover that Pamela Smart has been having an ongoing illicit affair with her teenage student, Billy Flynn.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

But another student from that very same high school is about to betray Pam with a secret recording.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

I'm afraid one day you're going to come in here, you're going to be quiet type of.

[Pamela Smart]

Black widow jailed for squalid murder it seems like the whole world's passing by and you know, I'm still here.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

They have a 22 year old woman who's having an affair with a 16 year old boy. And that boy is tied to the murder weapon.

[True Crime Commentator]

This young boy who was having an affair with her believes that she has told him that the only way we can be together is if you kill my husband.

[Pamela Smart]

Well, act like I just used him. Went lurking through the school looking for, for somebody to manipulate and it was just really wasn't even like that.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Decades of denials, but now new just this summer, a last ditch effort to change the narrative.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

It really boils down to this. Pam Smart is asking for the opportunity, the chance to express remorse and to discuss her transformation over 34 years from a 22 year old to a thoughtful, accomplished, mature 56 year old woman.

[Pamela Smart]

A lot of people felt like they knew everything about me because they saw the movie.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Did you get the gun?

[Billy Flynn]

No.

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind and my own heart how responsible I was because I had deflected blame all the time.

[Narrator/Reporter]

It makes the headlines when three teens are arrested in the murder of Greg Smart, Billy Flynn, Vance Latame and Pete Randall.

The police have now identified the murder weapon and they trace it back to those three boys. This is what enabled them basically to get these arrest warrants.

There is a fourth suspect. Raymond Fowler was in the getaway car. Fowler ended up being charged, but other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, he seemingly did not have much to do with the murder itself.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Remember, police had been told that these boys were mere pawns and that Pam Smart had put them all up to it. But what was the motive? Why would they kill Smart?

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

I'm gonna go straight to Pam's condominium and get her reaction.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I'm totally devastated by this. I can't comment.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

I was boggled by her reaction. Wait a minute. They've solved your husband's murder and you're, you're distraught?

[Pamela Smart]

I thought, oh my God, they have the wrong person.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You thought Billy was innocent?

[Pamela Smart]

I thought there was no way.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

These three teenagers are in custody, but they are not talking to the police.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Normally you get three teens that are arrested for something this serious. One or all of them are going to sing. They're going to tell exactly what happened because they're teenagers.

And then out of the blue, a break in the case. Police actually get an anonymous phone call.

[Detective Pellets]

This is Detective Pellets here.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

There was a young man killed a couple weeks ago right in his home. From what I have heard, the wife had planned it.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

She said the woman had planned it. And there was someone that knows all about this and her name is Cecilia Pierce.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Cecilia Pierce is a teenager who goes to Winnicott High School. She is the intern of Pamela Smart.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

They had worked together on that OJ video.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

We still need energy and vitamin C to keep in shape and stay healthy.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Police interviewed Cecilia and that recording appeared in a documentary for Discovery ID called Pamela An American Murder Mystery.

[Detective Pellets]

What kind of a relationship do you have with Pam?

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Close. She was kind of like a big sister.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The revelations she makes are stunning.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

They were friends and they were having an affair.

[Detective Pellets]

How did you find out about the affair?

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Pam told me that she was in the bill and I didn't say anything about the text because I worked in on him.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Bill Flynn was a juvenile, just 16 years old. Cecilia tells police that one night she, Billy Flynn and Pam Smart are watching a movie, Nine and a Half Weeks. During the movie, Pam Smart and Billy Flynn go upstairs. Cecilia follows and actually walks in on the two having sex.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

This is a bombshell. Imagine what the police are thinking at this point. They have a 22 year old woman who's having an affair with a 16 year old boy. And that boy is tied to the murder weapon that was used to kill the woman's husband. These are big pieces of a puzzle they're putting together here.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You were technically an adult and he was underage.

[Pamela Smart]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That relationship seems predatory.

[Pamela Smart]

It was totally wrong. It was actually very difficult because I had feelings for my husband. I was, and I also had developed feelings for Bill and I knew that I couldn't continue like this. It wasn't, you know, gonna work like this forever. It was only a short relationship.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

You've had several bombshells in this case, but another one is about to explode. Cecilia reveals that she has heard the whole story, the conversations between Billy Flynn and Pam, and that she has heard that Pam wanted to get rid of Greg.

[Narrator/Reporter]

According to Cecilia Pierce, Pamela Smart planned the entire murder. She's the mastermind.

[Police Officer/Investigator]

We're going to conduct an audio surveillance

[Narrator/Interviewer]

of one Pamless Mott using a confidential informant.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They decide to ask Cecilia to get wired up, wear a taping device under

her clothes, and she goes to visit Pam at her office.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The trap is set. Will Pam fall in?

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Hi, how are you? Good.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Cecilia tells Pam that the cops have called her in for questioning about the murder.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Pretty much. They established that, yeah, you've had great killers. Why though? Like, you know, because they can't think of any other reason why Bill and them would do it. Yeah, but even if I ask somebody to kill somebody, you have to be deranged to say, okay, I will. You know what I mean? Whether someone asks you to or not, as far as I can see it, Bill did it because he loved you.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She doesn't break into tears. She doesn't deny it.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Nothing.

[Narrator/Reporter]

That's very telling.

[Pamela Smart]

Let me tell you how out of whack I was, okay? The day before this, I had a lawyer, and he calls me up and he says, whatever you do, don't talk to her because she's coming in and she's going to be wired.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That's an astonishing admission. She says her lawyer warned her. Cecilia's dangerous. She could be wearing a wire if you talk to her. And yet she still does.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

I'm afraid you're going to come in here and you're going to be quiet, type of give me some signals that if you have ever come down to being wired, that you're going to get me.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Why would you need that if, in fact, you did have nothing to do with it and you weren't part of all of this?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Now, remember, Cecilia acknowledges that she knew in advance about the murder. And that's when Pam issues what seems like an ominous warning.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

I'm the sick of lying. You know, I'm just telling you that if you tell the truth right now, you know, you're going to be on the way to Sam, and I'm just going to put you on there, and I'm going to say, do you know, did Pam do this? Now, if you tell the truth, you are probably going to be arrested.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Pam is really concerned about Cecilia now, so she's telling Cecilia to basically lie.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

And if you're not arrested, you're going to have to go and you're going to have to. You're going to have to send Junior and you're going to have to send me to the playlist for the rest of our entire life. And unfortunately, that's the situation you're in.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Sounds like you're admitting something.

[Pamela Smart]

My great, brilliant idea that I had was that I was going to go in and have these conversations with her to make her feel, like, more comfortable so she could tell me whatever she was going to tell me. All I wanted to know was, did this guy really kill my husband? Because I so like, more than anything, I wanted this not to be true because I felt responsible.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Ultimately, the wire that Cecilia Pierce wore became the reason the police were able to go and arrest Pamela Smart.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The good news is we've got the person that murdered your husband. The bad news is it's you. You're under arrest.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Hey moms. Looking for some lighthearted guidance on this crazy journey we call parenting? Join me, Sabrina Kohlberg, and me, Andy Mitchell, for Pop Culture Moms, where each week we talk about what we're watching and examine our favorite pop culture moms up close to try to pick up some parenting hacks along the way. Come laugh, learn and grow with us as we look for the best tips and maybe a few what not to do's from our favorite fictional moms from

[Instacart Narrator]

Good Morning America and ABC Audio.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Pop Culture Moms Find it wherever you get your podcasts.

[Shannon Maldonado (Shopify User)]

My name is Shannon Maldonado. I'm the founder of Yaoi, a gift shop. From the lens of artists and handmade objects, I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your sales, like planning inventory, they're just right there on your dashboard. And for anyone starting a small business, the biggest thing I can tell you, it doesn't have to be perfect. Shopify can help you build upon it. Start your free trial on shopify.com hey,

[Narrator/Reporter]

Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? May I suggest your big wireless build? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately though, Mint Story is better. Every plan $15 a month, even unlimited.

[Wise App Advertiser]

That's it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Narrator/Interviewer]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.

[Instacart Narrator]

See Terms.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Date is August 1, 1990.

[Detective Pellets]

Time is 10:00am Your New Hampshire. We're about to do a one party consent via telephone between Cecilia Pierce and Pamela Smart.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Police are now ready to arrest Pam Smart. But first they have Cecilia call her at her office one last time.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

Celia? Yeah, what's going on? I was just thinking of you this morning.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

On that call, Pam does confess to feeling guilty about something. She says she's feeling real remorse, but it doesn't have anything to do with her husband.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

She should have seen me when I hit all habit. I couldn't avoid it. It Came totally bouncing out of the road. I felt like overkill and aware of it. Yeah, well, it's roadkill. I can't believe that you felt bad about what I know, but not about Greg. I do feel bad about Greg, but I feel bad about the rabbit, too.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That afternoon, the police arrive at Pam's office. And she has a lot more to answer for than running over a rabbit.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Exactly three months from the day that her husband was murdered. On August 1, 1990, the police finally arrest Pamela Smart.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Pam, did you have anything to do

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

with your husband's murder?

[Pamela Smart]

I was really not worried about it because I knew that I hadn't done anything wrong. I'm thinking this is gonna get straightened out.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

She was charged with accomplice to first degree murder.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

But at this point, the case against Pam is entirely circumstantial. The boys are in custody, but they are refusing to speak.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

They have convinced themselves that they will go free once they turn 18 if they just keep their mouth shut.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

They suddenly learn the prosecutors are telling them, that doesn't matter that you're teenagers. We are going to try you as adults.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They were looking at a lifetime in the penitentiary. Suddenly, they got very chatty.

[Feminist Commentator]

They changed, and they became her accuser and she became the person who planned it all. And then they were able to make a deal with the prosecution for lighter sentences.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Sometimes to put the devil in jail, you gotta go to hell to get your witnesses.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

My name is Paul Manciado.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

I'm assistant Attorney general.

[Detective Pellets]

That him to get a device. A device that Van would get nothing and that he cared. Treated her lousy. Just. There's no way that Bill and Pam could continue their relationship with Gregory.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

You know, my recollection of Vance Latamy was. Wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. You know, you had to sit there and wonder how did you let yourself get involved in this? But he was extremely loyal to Bill.

[Detective Pellets]

Did you ever go Antonio's office with Dip Flynn? Yeah, I went in and raised new issues on the telephone. She put the phone on speakerphone so everybody could hear. She was in a fight with my husband Greg. And they were streaming back and forth, and they hung up because she says it felt nice. You. I had to have it done.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You listen to those interrogations and you're struck by how they say Pam was just determined to get this done.

[Detective Pellets]

How often would you talk to Pam about doing this?

[Billy Flynn]

She made it up almost every day.

[Detective Pellets]

She said she gave.

[Billy Flynn]

She started yelling at me. She's saying, well, if you're never gonna do this.

[Detective Pellets]

I want to know right now so I can.

[Billy Flynn]

So we can emancipate now, because I don't want to.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Billy Flynn comes across as a kid trying to act like a man because he's in a man's relationship with Pam Smart. And I think he wants to stand up and prove to her that he's that guy.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

But finally, police get down to the deed itself in the interrogation room.

[Detective Pellets]

What did you expect? I installed the naked 500 mile. Did the bill tell you where the 500 bucks was going to come from? He said it was coming from. Do you know how much insurance money paid is supposed to be $140,000.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

So a lot was made of this $140,000 insurance policy that this was about sex and greed.

[Pamela Smart]

Right. Which makes no sense whatsoever because I had a very good job. I made a lot of money for myself at that age that I was. I mean, I guess everybody needs money, but I really made my own money.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The teens lay it all out. They say Pam told them to ransack the house and make it look like a robbery.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Was there any conversation about the gun?

[Detective Pellets]

Yes. Yes, we had it. And Bill said yes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The teens interior segregation tapes were textbook classic. They revealed every detail.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

So did they concoct this as teenagers frequently do to protect each other? Yeah. It wasn't us. It was Pam. Or did Pam really help them? Was she the mastermind of this whole conspiracy to murder plot?

[Narrator/Reporter]

So now, since the boys have turned, they have enough to take at the trial.

The trial was a sensation.

[True Crime Commentator]

The local station WMUR starts to preempt soap operas to cover this trial because what they have is a soap opera taking place in the courtroom.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Spectators have been arriving shortly after midnight

[True Crime Commentator]

just to get a seat.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

What were you doing with your right hand?

[Pete Randall]

I had a knife in it.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

What happened next?

[Pete Randall]

I was supposed to kind of scope.

[Cultural Commentator]

1990, you know, that means got the hair bands beginning to give way to grunge out of Seattle. Bands like Nirvana,

[True Crime Commentator]

shows like Cheers were popular.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It's a dog eat dog world, Sammy. And I'm wearing milk bone underwear in New Hampshire.

[True Crime Commentator]

The local station WMUR started to preempt soap operas to cover this trial.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I dreamt I spent the entire evening with my sexy, gorgeous husband.

[Pete Randall]

The testimony you're about to be today

[Detective Pellets]

will be truth, the whole truth and nothing but truth.

[True Crime Commentator]

I do because what they have is a soap opera taking place in a courtroom. The case had all of those elements. Sex and betrayal and murder.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The trial was a sensation in part because it was at end the. The dawn of cameras being in the

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

courtroom

[Narrator/Reporter]

and so people could tune into their local station in New Hampshire, watch wall to wall coverage.

It ushered in a whole new era, a whole new genre for TV court trials.

[True Crime Commentator]

And before you know it, it becomes kind of nationwide news.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The media coverage was intense.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

In New Hampshire, Pamela Smart is on trial in what seems like the plot to a very bad movie.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It was a tsunami of tension. Most of it was negative.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Many people very likely had already formed an opinion of Pam Smart before the trial ever started.

We did not have a jury that was sequestered, so naturally we were concerned that they were going to be affected.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Ladies and gentlemen, it was that woman who initiated, orchestrated and directed William Flynn

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

to kill her husband.

[Narrator/Reporter]

According to the state, Billy Flynn committed murder because Pam Smart put him up to it, luring him with money and sex. But according to the defense, Billy Flynn committed murder out of a jealous rage.

What will be coming before you from

[Narrator/Interviewer]

prosecution witnesses will probably be one of the most vile concoctions ever assembled in one courtroom in the state of New Hampshire. The main takeaway that we wanted the jury to get is that the state

[Narrator/Reporter]

of New Hampshire made a deal with the devil.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

The prosecutor made a plea deal agreement with Pete Randall and Billy Flynn, the two who had actually committed the murder.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

J.R. latamy, who was the the getaway driver, also cut a deal by pleading

[Narrator/Reporter]

guilty and agreeing to testify. They had a chance at getting out of jail someday, and they took it.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Nice, clear voice. Would you please state your name so that everyone in the jury box can hear it?

[Pete Randall]

Patrick Allen Randall.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Randall came across as a little more matter of fact. Some people describe it as cold.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

I would like to call your attention to May 1, 1990. Can you tell me what you did after school?

[Pete Randall]

I went to Haverhill to pick up Jaz's grandmother's car in order to go to Derry to kill Gregory Smart.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The goal is to show that Pamela Smart, with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, masterminded this murder.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Can you tell us what you said to the defendant and what she said to you?

[Pete Randall]

She told me they should leave the back doors unlocked, not to hurt a dog. And that we could ransack the apartment, the condo, take what we wanted and wait for Greg to come home. And when Greg came home, we would kill him.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

What else was said at that time?

[Pete Randall]

I felt that stabbing Greg would be a lot easier than shooting him and told me that if I was to stab him, it'd get blood everywhere and not to get blood on a sofa.

[Narrator/Reporter]

It was downright strange to listen to him describe so matter of factly, so unemotionally, him participating in the killing of Greg Smarty.

[Pete Randall]

When Greg came into the door, he opened up the door and called to his daughter and to pulled him in the house and he was screaming and trying to run out. He switched and started asking about his

[Detective Pellets]

dog and

[Pete Randall]

just told him his dog was okay. Don't worry, your dog won't hurt your dog.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Randall says he then holds a knife to Greg's throat and orders him to hand over the wedding ring he's wearing.

[Pete Randall]

Told me he couldn't give it to me.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Why?

[Pete Randall]

He said his wife would kill him.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

He just looked sinister, you know how a shark, his eyes don't look like they're living. Looks like he's dead.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

What happened next?

[Pete Randall]

I was supposed to cut a skull.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Did you at that time?

[Pete Randall]

No, I did not.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Why not?

[Pete Randall]

I couldn't do it.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Why couldn't you do it?

[Pete Randall]

Because of some of the things he said and because I couldn't do it.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

What happened after Bill took the gun

[Pete Randall]

out and shot him?

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

He certainly came across as someone who didn't seem as bothered as you might think he would be for having been involved in this crime.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

What was your motivation for taking car for this murder?

[Pete Randall]

Bill was my friend and I didn't want to see him get caught for committing murder. And there were financial gains, but your

[Psychologist/Expert]

peers have a huge influence on what you do and don't do. But Billie was probably admired. The power of teen friendships is very strong. You get a bunch of misguided kids who feel like they've shown up for one another, that they're helping one another. They may not truly understand that committing homicide crosses a line that should never be crossed.

[Narrator/Reporter]

State calls Vance Latamy.

Latamy was a bit different in that he wasn't there for the actual murder. He was in the car outside.

[Detective Pellets]

Dan had asked how should she react if she comes home and finds Greg dead. She had asked whether she should scream, run house to house or just run in and call the police. You know how she should react.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You get a sense of just how amateurish these teens were. Latamy made fun of Randall and Flynn for buying latex gloves that were too thin to even hide their fingerprints.

[Pamela Smart]

And why was that funny?

[Detective Pellets]

Because I figured all this plan that he was supposedly doing for this murder that he wanted so bad, he'd have a better set of gloves than them. He decided to stop at a store and put Scott's teeth around each of their fingers and then put the gloves on over the tape. To prevent fingerprints.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You know, in every big trial, there's that one aha moment. The moment everybody remembers. With Simpson, it was the glove. In this case, it was Pam Smart in a white strapless bikini posing suggestively on a bed.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

While Pamela Smart was the big draw

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

today, the case against her was built

[Narrator/Interviewer]

on the testimony of several teenagers.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Would you please state your name?

[Pete Randall]

William Flynn.

[Wise App Advertiser]

How old?

[Billy Flynn]

16.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Groupies of the Pamela Smart trial camp out for hours.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

If this story were a made for TV movie, and it surely will be, you might not believe it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Nobody really understands that these guys were not angels.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Bear in mind Billy Flynn's sidekick, Pete Randall was involved in several thefts and Billy himself admitted to burglary.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

When Billy Flynn took the stand, he seemed to be every bit the innocent virgin that the prosecution painted him. In the opening statements, he tells the

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

first time it was ever visited, she

[Billy Flynn]

was saying, well, are you gonna kiss me? I said, yeah. She said, well, do I have to call that rapier?

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

I said, yeah, basically, if you believed Billy Flynn, you didn't need anything else.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Now can you go take us back to her driving you home that night? What happened?

[Billy Flynn]

She started crying and that got me upset. She was saying that the only way that we'd be able to be together is. Is it fine if we kill Greg?

[Pamela Smart]

Bill Flynn is supposed to be so innocent that he was manipulated by me, Right? But at the same time, he was smart enough to manipulate his friends to go kill a person they've never even met.

[Billy Flynn]

She said, anybody that helped me can have anything in the house because he's insured. She came to share this thing

[Detective Pellets]

and

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

where did the defendant say she'd be?

[Billy Flynn]

Kind of meeting. That's what she'd have.

[Pamela Smart]

Now, rather than having, I wanted to get up and say, stop lying.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You think he lied to get a lesser sentence?

[Pamela Smart]

Absolutely. Yeah, I know he lied.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You know, in every big trial, there's that one aha moment. The moment everybody remembers. With Simpson, it was the glove. In this case, it was Pam Smart in a white strapless bikini posing suggestively on a bed.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

As if this super sensational trial isn't crazy enough already. My God.

[Feminist Commentator]

They were made between her and a friend, a girlfriend, for a modeling contest. They took photos of each other.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Those photographs made it into court, and the prosecution claimed that she had deliberately taken those to be seductive to get Billy Flynn to do her bidding to kill her husband.

[Billy Flynn]

She said she didn't want them, she was just gonna throw him out. If I wanted him, I could have him.

[Narrator/Reporter]

When those photographs come in, you can see it kind of was overwhelming for a teenage boy. This was a lot of sex for a 16 year old to have. You can get that sense that it had a lot of influence on him, a lot of power over. Over him.

[Feminist Commentator]

Enough to make him kill, the prosecution said. See, here's more examples of Pam using her wiles to keep this boy besotted by her. Not at all.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Pam's side of the story is that she denies ever letting Flynn see those

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

photos of all the people that took the witness stand. I think people were more moved by Billy Flynn than anyone else.

[Billy Flynn]

I heard Greg walking up towards the door.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

How was it that you overpowered?

[Billy Flynn]

Um, well, he wasn't struggling very much. He was just asking what was going on.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

What'd you tell him?

[Billy Flynn]

Um, I just told him to shut up. I took the gun. Out of my pocket, I cocked the hammer back and I pointed the gun at his head.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

After you pointed the gun at his head, what'd you do?

[Billy Flynn]

I just stood there all at one. A hundred years, it seemed like. I said, God forgive me.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

After you said, God forgive me, what happened?

[Billy Flynn]

I pulled the trigger.

[Pamela Smart]

He started crying. And I'm looking at the jury and I'm seeing that they. It looks like they feel sorry for him. I wanted to scream.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I mean, he killed somebody. A defenseless man, on his knees, execution style. Yet he became sympathetic on that stand because he was so young, so emotional. And Pam Smart is sitting over at that defense table. She is the orchestrator. This was just a the of part.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Okay, so you're saying that Pam made you kill Greg?

[Billy Flynn]

I performed the act, yes. But I never would have done it if Pam didn't tell me to. You were just like a machine or something like that. She was the first girl I ever loved.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Now it's the defense's turn to make their case. And in a bold move, they put Pamela Smart herself on the stand.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

The courtroom was hushed. She was again dressed in her prim, proper little outfit with her hair done perfectly with a big bow.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She was insistent upon taking the stand,

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Pamela Ann Smart, to make sure the

[Narrator/Reporter]

jury know that she did not kill her husband.

[Detective Pellets]

Why did you marry Greg Smart?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Because I loved him. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Did you have any problems?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Greg didn't come home one night. He told me that he had been. He had been with someone else.

[Billy Flynn]

How did you react to that?

[Feminist Commentator]

Mad because she had no expression. Was immediately convicted as an ice princess and a cold blooded killer. Maybe if Pam had cried, things would be different.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

The defense Argument was that Pamela Smart fully admitted she'd had an affair with a teenage boy.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Well, I didn't set out to have an affair with him, but I did.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Pamela Smart had broken the affair off, and he got mad, and that was his retribution to kill her husband in cold blood.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

And told him that I didn't. That I didn't want to have a relationship with him anymore. And he started crying, and he said that he couldn't live without me.

[Narrator/Reporter]

It's a huge risk in any trial for the defendant to take the witness stand because you're then subject to cross examination by people who do it for a living.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

You said when you heard Bill Flynn was arrested, you say, oh, my God, they heard about the affair, they arrested the wrong person. Of course, you went right to the police to straighten that out, didn't you?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

No, because I thought if the police knew that I had an affair with Bill, then they would automatically conclude that I was involved in the murder. And also, the police never asked me.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Oh, they didn't ask you.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Oh. I believe it was a huge mistake to put Pam Smart on the stand. She was destroyed. She was torpedoed on cross examination.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Made a lot of mistakes so far in this case.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I sure have. Yes, I have.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Was killing your husband one of those mistakes?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

No, it wasn't.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

Guy getting a divorce, maybe that was one of the mistakes. You should have gotten divorced, but you didn't.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

No, I didn't want to get divorced.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Would the defendant please rise and face the jury?

[Pamela Smart]

I felt like the jury was either gonna be hung or they were gonna find me guilty. I thought there was no chance at that point that the jury was gonna say I was innocent.

[Pete Randall]

Juror number one, is the defendant guilty or not guilty?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The verdict that's about to be handed down would be swift, the punishment severe. And yet, three years later, it was still must see TV when Diane Sawyer landed the only interview with the trigger man himself, Billy Flynn.

[Feminist Commentator]

Bill Flynn.

[Narrator/Reporter]

We asked him if there were one

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

question he could ask you.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I think I know what it's gonna be.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Wait, what do you think it's gonna be?

[Narrator/Reporter]

There's a headline every 30 minutes for our show.

[Detective Barry Cherowitz]

I'm pretty sure.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Welcome to Get Real. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch. This is the show for the reality TV about.

[True Crime Commentator]

You thought the show was crazy Living. It was crazy.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

I was dripping sweat before I even started.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

For the stars and stans of the hula reality verse. Do we think she's stirring the pot to secure a place on the show? Find and listen to get real wherever you get your podcasts and stream new episodes Thursdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney terms apply.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet, but drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

Miss Mendon, please rise. Adam Fourlady, please stand. Has the jury reached a verdict on each of the three offenses charged?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Yes, we have.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

The adrenaline starts running through your body and your heart's pumping.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

After 13 hours of deliberation, it all came down to this.

[Narrator/Reporter]

That's not that long. Usually quick verdicts mean a jury's gonna quit.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

I'll say it. Was the defendant guilty or not guilty of the offense charged?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Guilty.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Greg Smart's family let out a howl on Pam's side of the courtroom. Her parents just sat in deathly silence.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Crushed, she went from finding out whether she was guilty or innocent to being sentenced within a matter of minutes.

[Pete Randall]

I am required and do hereby sentence you to the New Hampshire State Prison for Women for the remainder of your life without the possibility of parole. Mr. Smart, you're in the custody of the sheriff. This hearing is adjourned.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Our feelings were overjoyed. I just don't know how to explain it. I just. I wanted to scream and holler and jump and everything.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

The entire Smart family went to Greg's grave and they knelt by the grave and they formed a circle and they told them it was finally over, that Pam had been convicted and she was

[Narrator/Reporter]

going to go to prison.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

I remember Diane Sawyer interviewed Pamela Smart and I was riveted. Tonight, Pamela Smart, her first interview since the arrest.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Even four years after the murder, the country was still transfixed.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I didn't really consider built be a kid. I guess age wise he was. But at the time I just felt that he was more mature.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

She also got the only interview ever with Billy Flynn.

[Billy Flynn]

I was still in love with Pam. That trial was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Ever I guess it's hard for a lot of people to think that you could do something like that for love.

[Billy Flynn]

That was the whole world to me back then. I fell in love with her then. She was really all I had.

[Psychologist/Expert]

You know, if you're in the hands of somebody who's older, they're going to have power to manipulate and to guide, and you can't always trust that they're just not old enough to make that decision. The frontal cortex is not fully developed yet, so their ability to really think through consequences for their choices is not in place.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Perhaps the most memorable moment in the Diane Sawyer Special is when she tells Pam Smart about a revealing question she asked Billy Flynn.

[Narrator/Reporter]

We asked him if there were one

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

question he could ask you what it would be. And here's what he said.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I think I know what it's going to be.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

Wait, what do you think it's going to be?

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Did you really love me?

[Pete Randall]

No.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

If you could ask her one question,

[Narrator/Interviewer]

what would it be?

[Billy Flynn]

Whether or not she really ever loved me. That, you know, in hindsight that might not seem like a very big deal to most people, but. Knowing that she had me do this and that I did go through it and that she never really loved me would probably kill me.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Yes, I did. I think I did really love him.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

If I were to ask you that question again now, is there a more nuanced answer? Did you love him?

[Pamela Smart]

I feel like I loved him. I cared for him. I had feelings. You know, people act like I just used him, you know, and went lurking through the school looking for somebody to manipulate. And it was just really wasn't even like that.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

For this broadcast, her mother, Linda Wojis, traveled to New York as part of her never ending quest to win her daughter's freedom. You've been a tireless advocate.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

You would be too, I would hope.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Do you think your daughter had a fair trial?

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

No.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Why?

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

The three things you're supposed to do from the U.S. supreme Court when you have publicity attendant to her, like as in her trial, 1,200 newspaper articles screaming her guilt, that you'll put in safeguards, stay the trial while the publicity abates, you change the venue and you sequester the jury. Judge Gray refused motion after motion to do any of that.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

I don't think it was necessary. I don't know about everybody else, but I got the sense that 12 good people told not to watch TV can pull that feed off without much difficulty.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The reality is, however, that no matter where you try Pam Smart, a jury will likely convict Her. Based on the evidence she tried, the appeals process, she exhausted every appeal.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Remember Pamela Smart? Today, the US Supreme Court turned down her final appeal.

[Feminist Commentator]

What happened with Pam is that people see her as having committed a sin more than a crime. Her sin was the affair with a young boy.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Pam's advocates and a growing chorus of feminists believe that Pam Smart got a raw deal because she's a woman.

[Feminist Commentator]

It's an old, old sin, and it's the same one, you know, that goes back to. To Adam and Eve, where Adam plea bargains with God and gets a reduced sentence, and Eve gets the book thrown at her.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Pamela Smart has now been in jail for nearly three decades, but the boys finished serving their time.

[Prosecutor/Attorney]

It sort of made me sick knowing that these kids were gonna get out of jail long before Pam Smart ever would. In my mind, they were more guilty than she was. I mean, these. These are some bad people.

[Feminist Commentator]

Even if you believe she's guilty, which I don't, the actual killers who said, yes, we murdered him are walking around and having their lives, and she deserves better.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

Pam said to Mimi, you know, mom, El Chapo has the same sentence I do.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It's one thing for Pam's mom to rail against the sentence, but you might be surprised what the prosecutor who put her in prison thinks.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Now, I'm not making a personal statement about Pam. What I'm saying is I don't know if it's fair for anybody who's been sentenced to life without parole to be in jail for the rest of their life. I don't know if that's fair.

[Shannon Maldonado (Shopify User)]

Fair.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Okay.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

There's a petition online.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Clearly, you're never going to give up.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

No.

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

No, I won't. I just hope God lets me live long enough to see her free.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

But now it seems Pam Smart walking free just might happen sooner than later after all.

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

My name is Pamela Smart. I've been incarcerated since 1990.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Thanks to this stunning change of heart,

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own, you know, mind and my own heart, how responsible I was.

[Cultural Commentator]

Pamela Smart is sent to prison and winds up in Bedford Hills. Guess what movie they'd play for the inmates one night.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

Did you get the gun?

[Narrator/Reporter]

No, not yet.

[Cultural Commentator]

To die for. And this fictionalized version of her life would now be taken as gospel.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I just want to know when.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It's just this.

[Pamela Smart (Interview)]

I don't know.

[Detective Pellets]

Whenever.

[Psychologist/Expert]

Jesus. Oh,

[Linda Wojis (Pamela's Mother)]

look, if you don't know, I

[Narrator/Interviewer]

guess I have to find somebody who does.

[Psychologist/Expert]

She felt that she got a lot of attention and a lot of abuse in Prison. As a result of that movie and people thinking they knew who she was,

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

she was attacked by two inmates who thought she was a snitch.

[Feminist Commentator]

They beat her and really harmed her permanently. They fractured a orbital lobe in her eye. She's got a plate on the side of her face.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

It's been much easier for her in later years.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

She has been a model prisoner in every way. She's tutored other prisoners. She's been part of the ministry behind bars.

[Diane Diamond (Journalist)]

She's gotten two master's degrees.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

And in 2021, saying that she'd been fully rehabilitated, Smart petitioned the governor of New Hampshire seeking a commutation of her sentence.

[Pamela Smart]

Dear Governor Sununu, without executive intervention, I will die in prison.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

I was struck by the letters of support, and then I got to the

[Narrator/Interviewer]

memo that she personally wrote.

[Pamela Smart]

Although I never wanted nor asked Mr. Flynn to murder Greg, she claimed she

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

had no involvement with his death. How do I trust someone who hasn't

[Police Officer/Investigator]

even come to terms with her own

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

responsibility for the death of her husband?

[Feminist Commentator]

The vote was for, against giving her any kind of sentence relief.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Which brings us to Pam Smart's most recent effort, this video released to the media earlier this summer. A new approach after 33 years.

[Pamela Smart]

My name is Pamela Smart.

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

I've been incarcerated since 1990. Taking responsibility where I found myself was responsible for something I desperately didn't want to be responsible for my husband's murder.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Pam, inside prison, began to undertake the really serious and hard work about, you know, taking stock of what led her to prison and also coming to grips with, you know, her own culpability, acknowledging her responsibility and saying, look, my husband's death, it's my fault.

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own, you know, mind, in my own heart, how responsible I was, because the truth of being so responsible was very difficult for me.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

Where is Pam Smart today? What has she changed? What has she improved? How has she made the case for her own commutation? And one of the things is her more public acknowledgement of responsibility, and I think that's important.

[Pamela Smart (Later Interview)]

I'm respectfully asking for the opportunity to come before you, the New Hampshire executive Council, and have an honest conversation.

[Legal Expert/Commentator]

There's a question of someone's remorse. There's a question of someone's responsibility, but there's also the question of who the person is today. It's a testament to her character. And she becomes a prime case for a sentence commutation. This is not someone who should perish in prison.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Reacting to Smart's latest appeal, New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu telling ABC News New Hampshire's process for commutation or pardon requests is fair and thorough. Pamela Smart will be given the same opportunity to petition the council for a hearing as any other individual. What does redemption mean to you?

[Pamela Smart]

It means that we don't define people by the very worst thing they've ever done in life. It means that people change, people grow, and they evolve over time.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Debra Roberts.

[Bill Spencer (Reporter)]

And I'm David Muir.

[True Crime Commentator]

From all of us here at 2020 and ABC News, good night. Mysteries unravel and stunning truths are revealed when 2020 investigates.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Follow the clues, the evidence, the breaking new details. ABC's 2020 means true murder mystery Shocking.

[True Crime Commentator]

If you follow true crime in 2020,

[Narrator/Interviewer]

then you've got to listen to this. Subscribe now to 2020 True Crime plus ad free exclusive true crime content search 2020 True Crime plus on Apple Podcasts and start your free trial terms apply.