In this episode, we sit down with Johnny Ayers, founder and CEO of Socure, to uncover why government fraud rates remain stubbornly high compared to the private sector—and what it will take to fix them. Johnny shares lessons from working with 17 of the nation’s 20 largest banks, state and federal agencies, and over 600 fintechs. Together, we explore the flaws in identity infrastructure, the challenges of updating records like the Death Master File, and the cultural and incentive misalignments that allow billions in fraud to persist. The conversation dives into the realities of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and unemployment insurance fraud, the evolution of scams during the pandemic, and the urgent need for better data sharing, technology, and legislation. If you’re interested in the intersection of technology, policy, and the future of fraud prevention, this episode is for you.

Johnny Ayers: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnnyayers/

00:00:00 - Why Is Government Fraud So Persistent?

00:01:05 - Introducing Johnny Ayers & Socure’s Mission

00:01:20 - The Biggest Problems at Federal Agencies

00:02:15 - Death Master File: Flaws and Opportunities

00:04:43 - How Big Is Government Fraud? The Numbers

00:06:37 - Identity Is a State, Not Federal, Issue

00:08:19 - Data Sharing Gaps & The $5 Billion Problem

00:09:24 - Medicare & Medicaid: How Fraud Slips Through

00:10:09 - What AI Can Do for Fraud Detection

00:11:25 - SBA & PPP Loan Fraud During the Pandemic

00:12:24 - Why Did COVID Relief Lose 10% to Fraud?

00:14:32 - Incentive Alignment Problems in Government

00:16:02 - Getting Contractors Onboard with Fraud Prevention

00:17:11 - Why It’s Hard to Access Benefits You Deserve

00:18:21 - What’s a “Leakage Rate” in Unemployment?

00:19:04 - How Can 80% of Claims Be Improper?

00:20:00 - Why State Tech Gaps Make Fraud Easy

00:22:08 - Medicare Abuse vs. Classic Fraud

00:23:17 - Should the Public or Private Sector Own Identity?

00:24:00 - The Battle Over Digital Identity in the US

00:26:05 - Which States Are Leading on Digital ID?

00:27:13 - The Role of Motor Vehicle Associations

00:28:39 - Why US Identity Infrastructure Is Broken

00:30:33 - How the Private Sector Tackles Fraud

00:33:00 - Are We Making Progress? Lessons Learned

00:34:01 - Can AI and Data Fix Government Fraud?

00:36:35 - Measuring Success in Fraud Reduction

00:37:37 - Approving the Right People Faster

00:38:09 - Final Thoughts and What’s Next

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