BANNED Bible Books: Jesus' Twin, Simon Magus, and City of Canibals

Summary

Camp Gagnon: BANNED Bible Books – Jesus' Twin, Simon Magus, and City of Cannibals

Release Date: March 28, 2025

Hosts:

• Mark Gagnon
• Dr. Nathan Andrade

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves into the intriguing world of biblical apocrypha—the ancient texts excluded from the canonical Bible. Joined by Dr. Nathan Andrade, a scholar in early Christian literature, they explore the mysteries and controversies surrounding these banned books, focusing on the Gospel of Thomas, Acts of Thomas, Acts of Peter, and Acts of Andrew.

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2. Exploring Apocryphal Texts

Mark Gagnon opens the discussion by introducing the concept of apocryphal books, referring to them as "Banned books of the Bible" that might contain "secret knowledge yet to be uncovered" ([00:00]). The conversation sets the stage for examining why these texts were excluded and what insights they offer into early Christian beliefs and practices.

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3. The Gospel of Thomas

Dr. Nathan Andrade provides an analysis of the Gospel of Thomas, highlighting its discovery in Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in the 1940s. He explains that while the text purports to record Jesus' sayings as transcribed by Judas Thomas, most scholars doubt its authenticity and date it to the middle of the second century, making it unlikely to be a direct account of Jesus' words ([03:23]).

Notable Quote:

"It's hard to say a lot about that text... most scholars probably don't accept that."
— Dr. Nathan Andrade ([03:23])

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4. The Acts of Thomas: Journey to India

The conversation shifts to the Acts of Thomas, a text discovered in the 19th century, which narrates the apostle Thomas's mission to India. Dr. Andrade discusses how the text portrays Thomas being sold into slavery by a merchant in Jerusalem, leading him to preach in India and engage in building a palace that ultimately has no earthly form—symbolizing a heavenly construction ([15:32]).

Notable Quote:

"Jesus is resurrected and what's the first thing he does? Fraud."
— Dr. Nathan Andrade ([15:32])

The Acts of Thomas emphasizes themes of sexual abstinence, diverging from later Christian doctrines that encourage procreation and marriage. This theological stance contributed to its exclusion from the canon, as it conflicted with emerging orthodox beliefs ([25:04]).

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5. The Acts of Peter and Simon Magus

Mark and Dr. Andrade explore the Acts of Peter, which introduces Simon Magus, a sorcerer who competes with Peter in demonstrations of divine power. The text depicts a trial where Peter triumphs over Simon, reinforcing the apostle's authenticity and divine backing ([43:30]).

Notable Quote:

"Simon appears as a formidable sorcerer with the ability to levitate and fly at will."
— Dr. Nathan Andrade ([43:56])

This narrative serves to contrast true apostolic authority with malevolent magical practices, aligning with the Church's efforts to define orthodoxy against heretical movements like Manichaeism.

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6. The Acts of Andrew and the City of Cannibals

The Acts of Andrew is another apocryphal text discussed, portraying the apostle Andrew alongside Matthias as they encounter and combat cannibalistic tribes. This dramatic and gory storyline, deemed a romance by scholars like Heinz Hoffman, reflects early Christian attempts to mythologize their apostles' missions and martyrdoms ([51:43]).

Notable Quote:

"Matthias went among the cannibals and being cast into prison, was delivered by Andrew."
— Dr. Nathan Andrade ([51:49])

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7. Exclusion from the Canon

A central theme of the episode is understanding why these apocryphal texts were excluded from the Bible. Dr. Andrade attributes their exclusion to theological discrepancies, such as the Acts of Thomas' promotion of celibacy, which conflicted with the Church's evolving doctrines on marriage and procreation. Additionally, their association with heretical groups like the Manicheans raised suspicions among Church fathers, leading to their disfavor and omission from the canonical texts ([33:50]).

Notable Quote:

"If a text is very popular among Manicheans, it can sometimes elicit suspicion from church authorities."
— Dr. Nathan Andrade ([35:05])

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8. Historical Authenticity and Influence

The discussion delves into the historical authenticity of these texts. Dr. Andrade points out the challenges in verifying the accounts within apocryphal books due to their vague geographical and temporal details. For instance, the Acts of Thomas mentions real historical figures like King Gondō Fares, but lacks concrete evidence of his conversion ([17:54]).

He also highlights the significant impact these texts had on Christian traditions, particularly in regions like India, where the Acts of Thomas influenced the establishment of the Thomas Christians, who trace their origins to the apostle's mission ([09:35]).

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9. Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the enduring fascination with apocryphal texts and their role in shaping early Christian identity. Dr. Andrade emphasizes the importance of understanding these texts to gain a comprehensive view of early Christianity's diversity and the processes that led to the formation of the biblical canon.

Notable Quote:

"These texts are a way of explaining, like, a lot of what's happening with the rise of Christianity... understanding the apostolic era."
— Dr. Nathan Andrade ([35:36])

Mark Gagnon reinforces the significance of historical knowledge in appreciating the complex tapestry of religious traditions and their modern implications.

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Final Thoughts:

This episode of Camp Gagnon offers a deep dive into the lesser-known branches of early Christian literature, revealing the rich and sometimes contentious history behind the formation of the Bible. By exploring texts like the Gospel of Thomas, Acts of Thomas, Acts of Peter, and Acts of Andrew, listeners gain insight into the theological debates and cultural exchanges that shaped early Christian communities.

If you're fascinated by the intersections of history, theology, and literature, this episode provides a compelling exploration of the shadows behind the canonical scriptures.

Transcript

[Mark Gagnon]

Banned books of the Bible, or should I say the Apocrypha. These are the ancient texts that were not included in the original canon of the Bible. But perhaps within them there is a secret knowledge that is yet to be uncovered. So today I have invited Dr. Nathan Andrade to come down and speak to us.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

It's about the true history of these ancient books. He's going to tell us about the Acts of Thomas, the story that Thomas actually made it all the way to India and interacted with the kings of that land.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Jesus appears to him, I have someone I want to sell to you into slavery. And so they have this transaction and Thomas becomes enslaved.

[Mark Gagnon]

He's also going to tell us about the Acts of Peter and how he encountered a magical wizard that flew around the room named Simon Magus.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

There's sort of this trial where they're pitted against one another and they're trying to demonstrate, I guess, who really has, you know, divine backing.

[Mark Gagnon]

And he'll even tell us about the Acts of Andrew and how the Apostle Andrew came across a city of cannibals. He's going to tell us about all of these books and more. He'll explain everything that's in them and why they were not included in the original Bible. And maybe he'll even tell us about all the secret teachings that exist in the pages of these old books. Or maybe it's just going to be fun to just, you know, talk about ancient texts. Regardless, enjoy the episode with Nathan Andrade. Get cozy in the tent, pour yourself a cup of tea, and welcome to Camp Nate. How are you?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I'm well. How are you?

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm doing excellent. I'm doing excellent. Okay. Today I would love to discuss some of the, you know, some of the apocryphal texts, some of the books and works that are found, not necessarily in the Bible, that have been found and discovered outside of sort of that traditional canon that many Christians accept. And last time we spoke, we spoke obviously about the, you know, the gospel records of the crucifixion of Christ and the Trial of Christ. But I think kind of looking at some of these other works as well as early Christianity, shortly after the death of Christ and kind of how it pervaded through Rome, therefore, I think, is really, really interesting. One of the ones we were just talking about was the Gospel of Thomas, which has sort of gripped the zeitgeist. Many people are fascinated by this text that claims to hold these bizarre, cryptic, you know, almost like idiomatic phrases and almost riddles that are said to have come from Christ himself. So I'm curious, as far as the Gospel of Thomas goes, what can you tell us about that specific text? Is it a hoax? Is it accurate to ascribe it to Christ? Or is that, you know, maybe not the case?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

What do you know about that?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to say a lot about that text in part because oftentimes when I read about it, I wasn't sure if I was persuaded by what other people have said. It's so hard to place because it, you know, it purports to be. Yeah. As you point out, the words of Jesus as recorded by an apostle, Judas, Thomas, also Didymos, who also, you know, I think is a fascinating figure in early Christianity.

[Mark Gagnon]

Where was the text discovered?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Nagmati in Egypt.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So relatively recently.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. And I think it has. It's preserved in Coptic. Yeah. And, you know, in the 1940s, discovered basically by accident, there are some Greek fragments of it that survive on papyrus, but very small. Right. And so there's all sorts of debates about what its original language is, how, how. How it dates, how is it related to, like, the New Testament Gospels. I haven't really seen any universal agreement, by and large, even though it purports to be the words of Jesus transcribed by Judas, Thomas, most scholars probably don't accept that. And from there, the question is, you know, does it represent a tradition that's earlier than the synoptic gospels, you know, that is Mark, Matthew and Luke, or is it even later? Might it be dependent on the Synoptic tradition and, you know, within the last 10 to 15 years, some scholars have argued that it should be dated, you know, to the middle second century or so. Right. Significantly later than what you would expect, like an oral transcription of the words of Jesus to be. So I can say that it's probably hard to say that those are like, the words of Jesus that weren't preserved Right. In the New Testament canon. It's hard to see much else. And in a very, you know, convincing Positive fashion. Different scholars are really, you know, hashing it out that way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Now, this same character, Thomas, has purportedly written another text that has been discovered relatively recently. The Acts of Thomas.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

What can you tell us? Where was that discovered? And what is in the. The Acts of Thomas?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's up, camp family? What's up, campers? Two big announcements. Don't skip this. Two massive announcements. The merch store is back open. That's right. Camp Goods is back in stock. We got these hats that I'm wearing right now. I've been rocking them both on here on flagrant. I've been wearing them on stage. We got a bunch more hats like the ones behind me. You can see them all here on the website. We also got some shirts. Oh, man. What is this one right here? Come on now. Come on now. Camp gear for all terrain. We got some other ones. What is this one right here? Oh, this one's beautiful. This one might be one of my favorites. The colors. The colors are absolutely crazy. This is Camp Gagnon. Vintage wisdom across the globe. Come on now. We got all that and more on the store. We also got these sick mugs right here. You might have seen me maybe sipping from one of these in some of the recent episodes. These are sick. They are all available on the website. Camp Goods Co. Check it out. Link is in the description. And by supporting the merchandise, you are obviously supporting the show. You're supporting me, and you're obviously, you know, supporting all the amazing people that make the show happen, like Christos, who is currently throwing me T shirts from underneath this desk here. So please check that out. Additionally, I'm on the road. That's right. I'm doing my one hour of standup comedy. Some of some of the the greatest jokes ever written. Okay, that's not true, but they are my jokes and I wrote them. And I'll be in Rochester, New York, March 26th. And I'll be in. In Portland, Maine on April 27th. And that one I'm I'm doing with Joey Avery. You know Joey Avery, a friend of the show. He sat across from me many times and I'm explaining some things to him. And he might be my dumb friend, but he is a brilliant standup comedian. And we will be there in Portland, Maine. If you are in these areas, please come out. And we're adding a ton of dates all through the summer. So check out my website, themarkgagnon.com for all tour dates and updated info. Come hang out with me. I talk to every single person after the Show. If you want to kick it with me, maybe have a drink, I'll be there and I will see you guys on the road. Let's get back to the show.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

In that case, it's about Thomas and not necessarily by him, but it purports to be someone who knew about, Right. This particular apostolic figure. And although it was generally known, we can extrapolate from early Christian literature generally, you know, people for a while knew that there was a Gospel attributed to Thomas and knew that there was an apostolic acts of some sort attributed to him. But, yeah, as you point out, those texts, for the most part, weren't really discovered until much more recently. Right. And what happened in the 19th century was that there was a lot of interest in Europe and various types of biblical manuscripts, naturally. And it was really amidst that interest that the Acts of Thomas first really surfaced in a more or less complete form, and that would be the Syriac version. But since then, Greek versions have also been detected, and in fact, that tradition has translated into a host of languages in antiquity, variations at least. So in Latin, Armenian, Georgian, Arabic. Right. Tradition represented by the Acts of Thomas was very, very popular. Not necessarily acceptable to everyone, but it was certainly very popular, as you can, you know, probably infer from all the translations. But, yeah, when it was discovered and people were able to actually read it in totality, you know, really for the first time, it really, you know, purported to be a text about how Thomas ended up preaching in India. Right. So going from, you know, Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection to, you know, preaching in the subcontinent, and it really attracted a lot of fascination because there are Christians that live in, you know, south India, you know, Thomas Christians that actually claim their origins right, from that apostle, like he founded their communities in the first century ce. And so there's been a lot of scholarship trying to figure that out, how, you know, how that all relates. Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Did reports of him going to India predate the discovery of the text?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

It does in the sense that once that text circulates, and I think I would date it to the third century, a lot of people dated to the early third eye. A little bit later, it becomes very popular and people cite it a lot. And so throughout late antiquity, there's a variety of authors with varying degrees of detail that mention Thomas in India or Thomas went to India or who sometimes, you know, you know, seem to be confused about where exactly Thomas went. In part because in late antiquity, Right. Say that if you're talking like the 36 centuries, when people refer to India, it Could refer to a lot of different places. Sometimes they, they use that term for like East Africa, Arabia, various parts of the Indian Ocean. So we have that in the sources. Right. People in the Roman Empire thinking of Thomas as having gone to India and preached there. But where they're getting that information is a little bit harder to establish. They could all be getting it from this one single textual tradition. Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do these proclaimed Christians in South India, these Tamisian, I don't know what you would necessarily call them. I guess the, the followers of, of Thomas's message, Right. Do they predate the discovery of the text?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

It's a little bit hard to tell because that gets us into questions about when we think Christianity arrives in India. Do we think that, you know, Thomas went there during what we would think of as the medieval period? There's certainly Christians in India, right. And there are various narratives from, say, like the Islamic world and so forth that talk about that. And you know, when the Portuguese show up, right, circa 1500, they're Christians there and they, they have that tradition. But how far back do they go? You know, that's, it's a little bit harder to tell just based on the nature of the documents at our disposal. Now one way to think about it is that, you know, the apostle gets there, establishes these communities, and from there you have their tradition. Another way to take it is that maybe, you know, at a certain point, as Christianity moves through Asia, right, There's this text, the Acts of Thomas, there's this narrative tradition that's about apostle who goes to India to preach. And as it circulates, people embrace that tradition.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

There are different ways to theorize it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

But certainly the Thomas Christians in India, they see this as going back to either him or a 4th century figure in their view that's also called Thomas. And yeah, so the relationship between those two Thomases is a little bit hard to configure.

[Mark Gagnon]

Are the Portuguese that that land in India that settled there, are they surprised that there's Christians there?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I think to a certain degree they are, because I don't know how much they knew. There were always. And this is getting us well beyond my expertise. But what I have been exposed to suggests that, you know, over the course of medieval Europe, there's an awareness that there are Christians in various hinterlands of Asia. Right. You know, there's traditions about, you know, a certain figure called, you know, Prester John, stuff like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

And there's an awareness, especially as Europeans, you know, start to make various pilgrimage to like, you know, Mongol colonates and stuff like that. You know, they're encountering Christians that, you know, originate from the Persian church, the east, and have a different theology, maybe a somewhat different Bible, but largely the same.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. So what's actually in the Acts of Thomas? Like, take us through the details of what is actually written.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. So what essentially happens is that it's almost in continuity with the Acts of the Apostles from the New Testament. Right. So, right. Jesus has recently been crucified. The Apostles are trying to figure out what to do. They decide that they're going to preach a message and they're all going to have like a different part of the world they preach in, and they're casting lots. And Thomas gets India. The author of the text is apparently aware of the way that Thomas is depicted in the Gospel of John, where he tends to be a bit doubtful, a bit non compliant, let's say, and he doesn't want to go. And what happens is that when he refuses, Jesus appears to him, you know, recently resurrected and says, you need to go to India. And he refuses. And from there it just so happens in the narrative that there's a merchant from India in Jerusalem who wants to take a craftsperson to India to build a palace for his king. And Jesus appears to him and he says, I have someone I want to sell to you into slavery. And so they have this transaction and Thomas becomes enslaved. And it's a fascinating sequence for a lot of reasons. In part because it's so strange that in some ways Jesus shows up to someone and seems to be like, I want to engage in a transaction with you. If you imagine maybe Jesus appearing and, you know, communicating a big cosmic message or something like that, that's not what happens to this merchant. Right. But the transaction, as far as I can reconstruct, is actually just, it breaks just about every Roman law you can think of, Right? Because it's illegal to sell free people into enslavement. And so, of course, for very, very justifiable reasons nowadays, you know, we would never find slavery humorous. Right? It's awful and it's despicable. But if you're thinking of like a Roman audience that's very desensitized to slavery, that might come across as Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this.

[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. Sort of funny, right? Jesus is resurrected and what's the first thing he does? Fraud. Right. Illegal transaction. And then he writes up a bill of sale which he has no authority to write. Yeah, he's doing all this stuff that technically is very sketchy from a Roman legal perspective, but that's the mechanism in the text that gets this apostle to India to preach. And from there there's a lot of debate about how historically accurate that is because the text is generally very vague. You don't get a lot of specific topographical features, you don't get police names, by and large, those types of details. But the king that he's supposed to build a palace for is actually the name of a real first century king in India. Yeah, Gondo Fares. Right. It's a sort of, it's a Parthian name, but that name is attested. And so how does the author of this text know this name is a big, big question. Right. And that king we know exists from inscriptions, coins, stuff like that. And so from there, right, there's a lot of working out, right? What is this in terms of like historical framing? What is it depicting? Is it an accurate interpretation of an apostle going to India or if you don't believe that the apostle went to India, could at least be a stand in for some phenomenon that got Christianity to India early.

[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, it does, actually. And so what he does is that he gets there and he starts working on this palace. And again, if we're talking about how apparently ancient Christians often had a sense of humor, there's like this funny sequence where he's supposed to be getting this palace built. And as we sometimes hear contractors doing, right, he's going way over budget and he's way over scheduled. And he keeps saying to the king, I need more money. But whenever he gets it, he distributes it to the poor. Because that's what good apostles do. Right. You know, part of that, that Message of Jesus and so forth.

[Mark Gagnon]

This sounds extremely accurate so far. The idea of a contractor, like, trying to hassle someone. Yeah, sounds about right.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. And sort of how he's depicted, right? He's, you know, he keeps saying, I need more money. Sorry, I'm not done. So finally, the king gets fed up and he goes to see the palace. And when he's there, at the site of the palace, there's no palace at all, not a trace. And Thomas is just like, oh, I'm sorry for the confusion. I'm not building you a palace on earth. I'm building you one in heaven.

[Mark Gagnon]

I've heard this before.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, you might have heard of it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Classic sales pitch. My mom's trying to get her pool deck fixed, and the guy's like, look, the pool deck is in. God is in heaven. All right, so. Oh, gosh. So what does the king do?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

He gets really, really angry. He doesn't, you know, he thinks he's been ripped off. And so he puts, you know, Thomas in prison, but then his brother dies. And while his brother, you know, I guess his spirit is departing from his body, you know, it goes up to the sky and it sees a bunch of angels in this luminous palace. And then his brother's revived and says, this heavenly palace is real. And at that moment, right, the king is won over, and if not explicitly, at least implicitly now believes, Right. Thomas message, right, About. About Jesus and, you know, salvation and so forth. But what the text does and what makes it somewhat fascinating is that it's very, very rigorously against all forms of sex, including sex and marriage. Right. Thomas's main message as he's going about various places in India and attracting followers, is that people should not ever have sex. And he's often targeting married people married to each other. And a lot of the plot kind of is driven by that message. And so very often what's happening is that he's convincing women in particular not to sleep with their husbands, and their husbands are furious. And that's actually kind of what gets him martyred in the textual sequence. He does this enough with powerful enough, you know, members of the political elite that they persuade a king to imprison him and have him executed, actually.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow. So there's like, a big underpinning of, like, sexual purity throughout the text.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, strange. I wonder if that carries on today because I'm married and, yeah, sex doesn't really seem to be a big priority, but. So it's interesting, maybe my wife has read the Acts of Thomas, but that's interesting that this pervades throughout the text that he's so concerned with sexual abstinence.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, it's intriguing because, I mean, that vein of thought certainly exists throughout early Christianity, but it doesn't. It's not what you would think of as dominant. Right. You know, as a church forms and gets established.

[Mark Gagnon]

Quite the opposite. I mean, nowadays, like, it's very common for Christians to have very many kids and that, you know, go forth and be fruitful and, like, that message seems, you know, very much ingrained in Christian dogma.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's interesting that that would be so antithetical to the point. And now, was this text, does it basically end there that the king is then, you know, converted and that his, you know, his kingdom is converted and that that is like a Christian. A Christian place?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

It doesn't say that explicitly. Intriguing, because what happens is that once his job is done, and the name of the king is actually a name that is the name of kings from North India, a very far, far distance from where Thomas Christians now live in South India. Right. Nowadays, we think of it from a modern vantage point. India, sort of a unified land mass. And, you know, European colonialism has treated it that way.

[Mark Gagnon]

In that time, it would have just been sort of like Warrington. Different tribal groups to some capacity, like different kingdoms, I imagine, controlling different. Different geographical areas.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, precisely. So different, you know, different polities, different states, different cities, different governments. Right. And so, you know, if Thomas is in one place, it means he's not necessarily doing work in another, arguably. But once he, you know, he does that whole palace business of his, he basically leaves that realm and he's just. He's traveling, he's very itinerant. And when he's executed, it's a different king.

[Mark Gagnon]

Now, you had mentioned that there's like a polymorphic element to Thomas in the text.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Essentially, what happens is that throughout the narrative, right, Thomas is portrayed as Jesus twin, visual twin, maybe even a brother. There's some ambiguity there. And when Jesus is normally appearing, he looks like Thomas. And Thomas's name is actually derived from the Aramaic word for twin. Right. And thus when his name is often translated into Greek, it says didymos, which is the Greek word for twin. So there's this notion of visual duplication. But when Jesus, right, you know, who's at this point, post resurrection, right. Much more spiritual and celestial than, you know, you know, human. Right. In formation, he can change his shapes a lot, and he's depicted as doing that. And part of. If you want to put it like, the humor of the text is that sometimes when Jesus looks just like Thomas, he will do things to offend people. And then when Thomas shows up a little bit later, there are all these people who really hate him. And it's not immediately clear why, but, like, his visual duplicate is doing stuff that gets him into, like, trouble and stuff.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's an example of this? I mean, this is a hilarious prank, and this is wild.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. You know. Well, basically, probably doing what Thomas would do. I'd have to go back for, like, a very specific example that brings in home, but, like, you know, basically preaching that, you know, people are sinful, you know, sex is dirty, so on and so forth.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then Thomas shows up and they're like, yo, what were you talking about? He's like, what do you mean?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And so the text says that it was Christ in sort of the visual apparition of Thomas that was saying these things.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

It's not really. And the text is a very complicated tradition behind it, at least in my view. It's not immediately evident from the beginning that they're visual duplicates, but as you read through the text, it becomes a bit more obvious. Right. And the text signposts that a lot better.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

And so what happens is that Thomas comes into a town and these people are like, how dare you do this to us? Right. And they're angry that he did something that he has no knowledge of doing.

[Mark Gagnon]

He probably saw the Kama Sutra and was like, yo, you guys going crazy? You guys are absolutely going wild over here. That is fascinating. And so his name in the text is Thomas Didymus, at least.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, at certain parts. At the beginning, when it's spelled out, for the most part, what happens is that you normally just call Judas, actually, and sometimes just called the apostle. But when the name is elaborated at its fullest, it's Judas Thomas, also Didymos or Judas Thomas.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. And obviously Judas Thomas being different than Judas of Iscariot.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And that was just a common name at the time.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, that's a very common name.

[Mark Gagnon]

Judas. I see.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's. I mean, what a fascinating text. Is there any other pieces of the text that you find particularly confusing or interesting?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Oh, I mean, I always just found that opening sequence. I tried to imagine how that trip would work because, you know, they board a ship in Jerusalem and sail directly to India. Right. And. And from there, it's a question of man.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

That's impressive.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's no direct line that they could have sailed to get there. Right. Like they would have had to go through the Mediterranean and around South Africa.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Is that there is in at least certain parts of the Roman Empire, at least with some probability, like an ancient version of the Suez Canal.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, it's possible that the Suez Canal was open at that point.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Basically something very similar to it. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Or that they transported through land at a certain point that got back on another ship.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I guess it would have had to be the case because, you know, Jerusalem is also not a port city per se. Right. And so you wonder, you, you wonder whether, like things are being alighted out. Right. You know, whether they went to the coast and got on in a ship and that just doesn't get narrated that way. Precisely.

[Mark Gagnon]

What a bizarre text.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating. And so I often found that to be, you know, one of the remarkable things about it. And you know, when I've done work in the past and trying to figure out how Christianity. Right. Is traveling across Asia and how Christian communities are being established, a big question is how does this text relate? What does it mean? Right. How do you do history with it? I mean, because of questions like this is very, very hard.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right. So was, would this text have been available to the early.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries, you wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

Offer valid through 4 2. Selection varies by location while supplies last. The church fathers, as they were sort of establishing the. The canon.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yes.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, really? So it's possible that they actually considered this like at Nicaea or a different council and discarded it from being a part of the canon.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, basically, in my view, the text might have been composed just late enough, depending on how it circulates, for people not really to be aware of it quite by like the early 4th century, but certainly over the course of the 4th century as they're still thinking about what that canon is. Yeah, they do know about it and there might have been a precursor to it, that's laws that focuses on Thomas and Parthia, basically like the Iranian world. And the reason why we say that is because when, you know, the patristic texts first start to talk about Thomas as having preached somewhere, being martyred somewhere and so forth, they often refer to Parthia. And so like Eusebius, I'm not sure if you're familiar, he wrote some very important, you know, he wrote an important church history at around the year 300. He mentions he's aware of a tradition that Thomas went to Parthia, for example, and things like that. And so there seems to be another tradition that's circulating that's equally apocryphal that we aren't able really to read. And as we've discussed in another episode, we talked about how much doesn't really survive from antiquity, and it's always hard to pin the logic as to why that is. But in the 4th century, what happens is that it gets marked as a text that really shouldn't be in the New Testament canon. Like Augustine of Hippo has a lot of disapproving things to say about it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

For example. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And what specifically does he highlight? Like the, the idea that Christ would sell into slavery, things like that?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I think the theology troubles people, for one thing. Right. Because at that point, a lot of the people who are running, like, you know, church institutions, they accept that, yes, asceticism is great, being celibate, being a monk is great, but it's not sinful per se, to get married and reproduce. The text becomes very popular among Manicheans. Right. So there's a very famous preacher in 3rd century Mesopotamia in the Iranian world named Mani, and he establishes a religion that's in many ways related to Christianity, but it interweaves other traditions, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism. And what's fascinating is that sometimes texts that are popular among Christians are also popular among Manicheans. And you know, Augustine was once a Manichean, actually, right before, you know, he left that particular movement and became, right, you know, a nicene Christian. And I think sometimes when a text is very popular among Manicheans, it can sometimes elicit Right. Suspicion from, you know, church authorities who don't want other people reading it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, but the theology is different, right? His moral message is different and, yeah, you know, it does, it gets a circulation among people that someone like Augustine would have defined as either heretical or not Christian. And I think these things factor in.

[Mark Gagnon]

Fascinating. What a bizarre text. What is the, the, the accepted church literature for what Thomas's actual proselytizing sort of path was like? What, what is generally accepted?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. What's generally accepted? I mean, I think what happens with these texts, you know, what is often called, you know, the apostolic apocrypha, I think, at least in my limited experience, and this is where my expertise will probably fail me a bit. But I think what happens is that, you know, it's helpful to have traditions that apostles did stuff early. Right. It's also a way of explaining, like, a lot of what's happening with, like, you know, the rise of Christianity and say, like, say the second century, you know, that's otherwise hard to explain, or even before that, understanding the apostolic era. I think what happens is that what can sometimes be formalized in teaching is stuff from those texts, even though the texts themselves are sort of disavowed. Because what happens is that, you know, some of the church fathers, they don't want people reading this text, but they also think Thomas went to India.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hmm.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. They accept that basic premise that seems to originate with the text, but then they just don't want other people reading it and getting maybe, like, you know, exposure to some of the other stuff.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. So there is a general acceptance that Thomas had gone to India, but this text is not the account of what happened.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I think in, like, you know. Yeah. In Christian tradition or traditions generally, that has been accepted. Right. You know, in terms of, like, you know, a historical faith standpoint. Right. Thomas is the one that went east, and if you didn't go to India, he might have went to places that could be construed as India, Ethiopia, stuff like that. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I think that tradition gets accepted in the same way that, you know, a lot of Christian traditions accept that, you know, Peter was the first pope, even though that's also, to some degree, something that's more espoused by apocrypha traditions. Right. Than what's strictly speaking, in the New Testament. There's certain. Yeah. Certain passages from the Gospels can be read to signify that, but the Elaboration comes from other texts.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. So this king, this Indian king who's corroborated throughout other texts, is there any other corroborating evidence that he actually converts or, you know, accepts this, the. The Gospel of Christ or anything that is outside of this text?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Unfortunately, no, not really. So the name is one that multiple kings use.

[Mark Gagnon]

I see.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

It's sort of like the name Augustus if you're into Roman history. Right. It's someone's personal name when he's emperor. But then afterwards, every emperor gets called that. And what it looks like is that in the first century ce Speaking roughly, because the chronology can actually be much Harder to work out than, say, you know, things that happen in Roman territory. Someone has that name, and then other subsequent kings adopt that same name.

[Mark Gagnon]

King Louis could be referring to many different kings. Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

But the one that people typically think that's representing in some ways is the one that technically has some of the better documentation. Like there's an inscription. Right. That he left certain coins with his name on it. I personally haven't seen anything that would suggest that, you know, he necessarily converted, though, you know, as things often happen. There are ways. Right. To make that argument, I suppose, if one wants to read into certain symbolism or things like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Are there many other books pertaining to this sort of Apolloistic apocrypha, as you described it? Obviously, this one being very interesting and bizarre. But are there many others that sort of have a alternative tale about what happens to the other apostles?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, there are actually quite a few. And then what happens is that by the time you get to, like, the 4th, 5th, 6th centuries, people even start to have lists of apostles. Right. And so technically, they're almost, for lack of a better way of describing it, almost cliff note versions of what the apocrypha say. So someone would write a text and they'll have like, where all the twelve apostles were born, preached and died. And then if they really are really trying to, you know, be informative, they might even talk about the apostles, certain prophets that literature really takes off in late antiquity, because people are interested. And a lot of these, you know, cliff notes, they're really derived from the apocrypha. Right. And so I think what happens in my experience is that, you know, people, early Christians, they largely take these traditions seriously, but they don't always like the text. Right. That is sort of the main source. And I think what they do is they sort of sometimes try to isolate one from the other.

[Mark Gagnon]

I see, Right. So they're accepted sort of in, like, oral tradition, but they're not a part of the canon. But they inform our view of history. But don't really read into it too closely.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And so, for example, you brought up the papacy of Peter, which I've heard throughout the Gospels. You know, like, Christ sort of says, like, you know, upon you I'll build my church. You are the rock. You know, Petros, you were gonna be the found traditional church father. But are there other apocryphal texts that reference Peter becoming the first pope, quote, unquote?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, there are apocryphal texts that basically they associate Peter much more closely with Rome preaching there, being martyred There. And that's in the, you know, the texts that are typically called apocryphal because people don't know what else to call them.

[Mark Gagnon]

And what are the names of those texts?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Acts of Peter, stuff like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

So the Acts of Peter, similar to the Acts of Thomas.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. And do you know much about the Acts of Peter and what's in there? Is there anything that's bizarre or unusual in the way that the Acts of Thomas.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, I know a little bit. I would say less just because my scholarship hasn't gone in that direction, but I can certainly say a few things. Right. There's one text called the Gospel of Peter. It survives partially, although we know that people were reading it in north Syria around 200, because that author I mentioned earlier, Eusebius, talks about it, and he knows someone or he knows of someone who discovered this gospel and that people were taking it seriously, and a part of it survives. And it actually has a narration of Jesus's crucifixion. Right. The topic of, you know, another one of our conversations that actually, you know, really shifts the agency from people from Roman authority to people in Jewish society. Like, they play much more prominent role. And if I recall correctly, even Herod Antipas is involved more heavily, too. Right. And I think in the Acts of Thomas, one of the main things that happens is that he's debating, oftentimes someone, if I recall correctly, someone named Simon Magus, who sort of is the Acts of Peter.

[Mark Gagnon]

Acts of Thomas.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I'm sorry, Acts of Peter.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay. I should have said no, all good. I just want to make sure I'm tracking. Okay. So he references who.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. There's a tradition that Peter had this debate with someone called Simon, who, I recall correctly, maybe traces in the Acts of the Apostles or something, and that person's depicted as, like, a conjurer.

[Mark Gagnon]

I was just reading about this guy. His name's Simon Magus.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And he was able to levitate and do all sorts of miraculous things. He was like a witch, basically. Like a warlock or something like that.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And this is written about in the Acts of Peter, if I go out.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Correctly, certainly in one of the texts. Right. Associated with Peter's, you know, apocryphal tradition, so to speak.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. And what does he say about Croesus? Would you actually mind pulling up the Wikipedia for Simon Magus? This guy is fascinating. I was just reading his Wikipedia the other day. I was like, this is wild. And so what is there to say about that? In the Acts of Peter?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. I mean, I don't remember anything too vividly, to be honest. They have a debate. There's sort of this trial where they're pitted against one another and they're trying to demonstrate, I guess, who really has, you know, divine backing. Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

And Peter predictably wins because he can do everything Simon does or undo everything Simon does.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, interesting. Okay, let's. Let's take a look. It means magician. Simon the Magician.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

He's a religious figure who confronts Peter in the Acts of the Apostles. The act of simony, or paying for position, is named after Simon.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

No, that's right, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, wow, that's fascinating. Okay, this is fascinating. So, Justin, he's a native of Samaria. The apocryphal works, including the Acts of Peter. Simon appears as a formidable sorcerer with the ability to levitate and fly at will. He is sometimes referred to as the Bad Samaritan. Huh, that's funny.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I heard that.

[Mark Gagnon]

I like that. The Bad Samaritan due to his malevolent character. Wow, this is fascinating. And this is a part of, I guess, like a Gnostic tradition, as it says here.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. A lot of the, like, apostolic apocrypha, they often are thought of as having Gnostic leanings for various reasons. Scholars, you know, debate this and what it means for something to be Gnostic. I'm no expert necessarily on ancient Gnosticism, but sometimes it can be ascribed to all sorts of different texts and worldviews, and it's sometimes hard to spell out. Right. You know, whether a text is really Gnostic or not. But. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

But that concept is often associated with a lot of, like, you know, apocryphal gospels.

[Mark Gagnon]

And I guess a Gnostic text would be something that kind of reinterprets or undermines perhaps like the divinity of Christ or God, but still sort of accepts some of the. The. The existence of these. Of these characters. Is that fair to say?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, along those lines, you know, for me, I think usually when there's like that emphasis on something being Gnostic, it reflects a certain worldview that, like, to really know the cosmos. Right. It's from the Greek word for knowing gnosis. Certain people have this knowledge that other people don't have. Right. It may be even be somewhat predestined to have it. Right. And I. And I think very often my people are classifying texts if they fall within that spectrum. Right. They might, you know, talk about as being Gnostic, but if they don't. Right, they don't.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow. I mean, these are fascinating. These other Apocryphal texts. It says here, in the Acts of Peter, the hostile crowd then stoned him. He's great. Oh, wow. I mean, this is fascinating. If you don't mind, I'll read this.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

No, by all means. I have to go back to myself.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's been a while.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

This is great.

[Mark Gagnon]

The apostle Peter prays to God to okay, this. Okay, this is fascinating. Okay, so Simon's performing magic in the forum, and in order to prove himself to be God, he levitates into air above the forum. Peter prays to God to stop his flying, and he stops midair and falls into a place, meaning the holy way, the sacravia, breaking his legs in three parts. And the hostile crowd, or the previously non hostile crowd, stones him. Now, gravely injured, he has some people carry him on a bed at night from Rhone to Aricia or Aricia, and is brought from there to a different place to a person named Castor, who has been banished from Rome on accounts of sorcery. The acts then continue to say that he died while being sorely cut by two physicians. I mean, what.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, there's like all this material in there and where it comes from. Yeah, you know, what's up, guys?

[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. I think what happens is that, you know, as Christian communities are taking shape and they're forming, right. I think people are just curious to know, right. About their own past. Presumably the various types of stories or tales are circulating with different people believing them more than others, at least how I would imagine it. And. But there are, you know, internal debates, right? And which, you know, people of different interpretations of Christianity. Right. Are producing texts to espouse that perspective. You know, if we go back to the Acts of Thomas, as we mentioned, whoever is responsible for producing that clearly believed in a version of Christianity where people don't have sex. Right? And so I think, to some degree, as Christians are working out, like, who they are, what are our practices, what are our beliefs, they also are looking to something of an historical past. And this inspires, like, these narratives that start to take shape about, you know, what were. Who were the apostles, what were they doing, what were they arguing? Who were the frauds, right? And with different traditions prioritizing some apostles more than others. And when we talk about, like, the New Testament, as you point out, like, in the fourth century, that's when, you know, like, the canon as we know it, it starts to become a bit more consolidated, and church authorities are increasingly in some agreement, but not universal. What's happening throughout this period is that different Christians have a different perspective on which texts are authoritative. And how. So maybe sometimes the Apocrypha, you don't believe the entire message, but you do believe that maybe, yeah, an apostle went here and preached. Or maybe you actually do see this as. As authoritative as another gospel that ends up in the New Testament. Right, Fascinating.

[Mark Gagnon]

Are there any other apocryphal texts that you find strange? Again, I know this is a little bit outside of your purview, but are there any others that you find particularly interesting in this sort of early Christian period, as prior to the church actually having a council to agree what things should be? Is there anything else that sticks out?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, one thing that would leap to mind is that if I recall correctly, there are traditions for apostles. I think Andrew, if I remember correctly, going to, like, northern regions and dealing with, like, cannibal people who eat people, basically. Right. Stuff like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Pull it up. What's it called? The Axe of Andrew.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Is that Acts of Andrew? Don't quote me on that because I might be dipping deep into my memory.

[Mark Gagnon]

But we're gonna. We're gonna get. This is great. Acts of Andrew. This is fascinating. Okay, yeah. And so basically, Andrew then goes and. To the northern regions of. Of where exactly?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, Okay. I guess maybe I was right. Among the people who eat people, the.

[Mark Gagnon]

Acts of Andrew and Matthias, amongst the Anthropo. Anthrop. Anthropophy. Anthropophagy.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

That's Greek for people eaters.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I like that. I like that. You made me try to figure that out. You knew the word and you're like, I'll let him try.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I was mostly relieved that I remembered that someone correctly.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, this is fascinating. So it exists in several Latin manuscripts. You scroll down just a touch there. Christos. It is the dramatic romance featuring the apostles Andrew and Matthias among cannibals. Wow. Okay. So they go amongst these cannibals in a thriller featuring gory details. Was written for a Christian audience in the second century. Oh, wow. Okay, so what does it say here? Belonging in the middle of the second century, the apocryphal text relates that Matthias went among the cannibals and being cast into prison, was delivered by Andrew. It is considered to be a romance and is understood to have no historical value. Heinz Hoffman classes it as secondary apocrypha and is derived from other apocryphal sources. Ghoulish man eaters remind Hoffman of the killing of Socrates by the witch Mero in metamorphosis. I mean, fascinating. I'm just, again, constantly just so interested in these texts and why they arise and. And what they mean for the people of the time. I guess they read this almost as like a fan fiction, like this one specifically, or do you think any of them read this as proper historical text in that time?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I honestly do not know. I think all of these are possibilities, though, if I recall correctly, in some of those Cliff Note versions I've told you about, Andrew's, I think, described as going to some northerly region consistent with that textual tradition.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

And. Yeah. And so there's just a lot of material like that. I mean, and how it's supposed to be read is a fascinating question. And. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

What northerly region could this be? Is this like in Western Europe?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. What happens is that in ancient literature, the farther north you go, the more that people are portrayed as doing almost the opposite of what people like in say, Mediterranean society do. And there's like a stereotype in, like, Greek and Roman literature that people living in, like, you know, the hinterland of Europe farther north. Yeah. Engaged in practices in which, you know. Yeah. They. They ate people or was considered an act of piety to murder their own parents.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. You get these. These tales and. Right. The Christian literature, you know, a lot of it being written by people living Right. In, you know, Roman areas or places with like, you know, long standing Greek populations. You know, they're filtering, stuff like that, I think, and it makes their way into, you know, how they're either. Yeah. Historicizing or romanticizing apostolic figures.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. Okay, so let's ground ourselves in some actual history.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

How would you. How would you describe, if there is such a thing as actual history, how would you describe, you know, the story of Christianity sort of spreading through the Roman Empire after the death of Christ, but also through the East.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. I mean, the way that I've often tried to historicize it moving eastward and the narratives that I've accepted, say moving westward.

[Mark Gagnon]

Paul.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. Is that, you know, a lot of the narratives and these include, like, the text that we're talking about. What they typically do is they depict an apostle who shows up in some place where they're total strangers very often and they preach a message, and it's instantaneously compelling to at least some people, and other people are offended or they're defended, that it's compelling to some people, and the text seemed to intimate that that outcome is inevitable. Right. A stranger comes to you, tells you that what you're doing is wrong, like you're not the way to live. You should do something else. You're going to accept that instantaneously. And that's sort of, you know, the way that the, the, these narratives often present, right. Conversion to Christianity and so forth. And so when people are trying to figure out, like, the historical aspects, they certainly look at the text as ways that people might be thinking about their past or maybe not if they, if they just see this as a story. Right. But I think the type of historical work that I often find compelling, it almost humanizes actually early preachers or apostles. Right. They're living in another city, they're working there, they're making friends. When there's a certain level of trust, they communicate about this sort of thing. Right. And some people read certain letters of Paul that way. When I was working on Christianity's eastward movement, that's how largely, in my view, I was thinking about it. You have go further with the American.

[Mark Gagnon]

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[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

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[Mark Gagnon]

Sure. Yeah. That's interesting. Do you know which apostle, according to historical record, went the farthest?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Oh, the farthest, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'd be curious to know. I mean, if we accept, you know, that Thomas went to India or a place known as India, perhaps that would be the farthest in that lifetime.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. And there are traditions that even build on that and that have them going as far east as China.

[Mark Gagnon]

Really? Thomas specifically?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

It's not spelled out in the Acts of Thomas per se, but what happens is that once that narrative becomes popular, you can build on it. Right. And people do. And so by the 4th, 5th centuries, and then certainly subsequently, you start to hear about him in places like Shir, which would more or less be the place where the Seres live, the series being the Silk producers, which seems to be a way that Greeks talk about, like, northwestern China and so on and so forth. And so, yeah, not having an intimate knowledge of all the traditions of all the apostles, I'd lean towards Thomas, you know, I'm biased in that respect. You know, someone who has long been fascinated by that particular apostle. Right. And the narratives about him.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, that's interesting. And now, as far as Christianity spread through the Roman Empire.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

The like, shortly after Christ's death, I imagine, you know, based off what I've heard, that there was a lot of persecution of Christians.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

How does that. That, you know, come to be? What does that look like? Like, what do early Christians, what are they doing that leads them to be persecuted in that way?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. Well, I think what happens, in my view, and this actually relates to a different episode we did on the trial of Jesus. I think what happens is that as they're settling in different places and, you know, over the course of time. Right. Eventually they're going to create what becomes Christianity. A lot of scholarship still thinks of them as a specific movement in, you know, Judaism. So to Speak in the first century. But I think what's happening is that, right, they sort of have a high threshold for group membership. They typically are meeting. Right. I don't want to say in secret, but that might be how it gets perceived. Right. You know, they have small congregations that, you know, are kind of inclusive in the sense that, you know, people who have met the threshold for memberships are embraced. But, you know, outsiders don't just, you know, participate in these rights necessarily unless, like, you know, they have gone through and have met that threshold. You know, they. They don't worship the gods that their neighbors worship, or for that matter, the Roman emperor, which is also something that's becoming increasingly common. And I think what starts to happen is that certain Roman authorities and maybe sometimes certain municipal leaders, wherever they're settling, they think of what they're doing as somehow seditious, seditionist in a certain way. Right. There's something antithetical to the rest of society about what they're doing. Something that's inimical to maybe the political order. What's intriguing, though, is that, and this relates, I think, to that other conversation about the trial of Jesus, different governors seem to have different opinions about this. Right. Some really think that this is something that's prosecutable, but others don't seem to think so. They're not as bothered by it. Or maybe if, you know, someone accuses someone else of being a Christian, they're not as inclined to get involved. Right. So there's also that element of, like, okay, what are the. What's the world view of the. The judge, Right. What, what is their sort of, you know, subjectivity in terms of how they. They understand things and how they understand Christians, Some of them might think of them as different, but maybe not doing anything that's actually criminal. And that's what, you know, Christians are always arguing. You're treating us like criminals, but what is our crime? Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Was freedom of religion accepted in the Roman Empire up until this point in.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

In the sense that there was certainly a very high tolerance for pluralism and little expectation of universal, like, conformity to much of anything. Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

And except the emperor, there had to be reverence for the emperor.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

But even then there were exceptions. Like, you know, Jews weren't expected necessarily to worship the emperor per se. They might, you know, when the temple was active, do sacrifices on behalf of the emperor. If you, if there's like, say a city is celebrating, like, I don't know, a municipal festival, like, to the city's gods and the emperor. Right. If you just don't go as a polytheist. No one's necessarily going to care. And I've had some fascinating conversations with them, with some, you know, wonderful scholars, really, about this issue. Right. It's intriguing that when Christians don't do this, it becomes somewhat more important because to some degree, if you don't show up and participate, you're not necessarily being, you know, put on a blacklist or something like that. Right. Maybe it's different if you go out in public and say these gods are not real or something like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

And maybe to some degree, that's what Christians are associated with. But, yeah, what happens is that, you know, there are these moments where Christians are prosecuted and executed and their crime is, by all appearances, on being Christian, although sometimes that might be folded into other things, like, you know, a very notorious episode under Nero, you know, whose historicity has been recently debated. But most still think that something happened to believers in, you know, Jesus Christ at that moment. Right. And what essentially happens is that I think, or as many scholars, I think, agree, as the Roman Empire moves forward, you know, there are moments of what Christians certainly are experiencing as persecution, and they certainly are prosecutions and executions. And, you know, their crime, so to speak, is sort of ill defined because it's about who they are, not necessarily an act they've done. Right. Right. Can you be a murderer without committing a murder? It's an interesting philosophical question, the Christmas lyric of what? Of our crime. You're saying we're criminals, but you haven't defined a crime unnecessarily. But what happens in the third century? For various reasons, there is an effort to get people to participate in common rituals. And when Christians don't do it, they stand out a lot more. And that's when you start to see more moments that are more uniformly hostile on the part of the Roman state.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. Yeah. I wonder if there's anything about the sort of Christian tradition at that time that caused any issues like the teachings of Christ or communion or anything like this. The early church was doing that Romans kind of balked at that they thought was bizarre.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, I think. Right. I think there are certainly misinterpretations, Right. By the second century of what Christians are doing. And you sometimes get that in Christian apologetic literature in which they're explaining why, you know, they're not guilty of anything criminal and, you know, they get accused of things like incest and, you know, of eating people. And, you know, that could be either a sincere or very unsincere misinterpretation of, you know, a feeling of fraternity, calling people as your brothers and sisters. Right. Eucharist. Right. Yeah. So they get accused of doing things that Romans, or at least some Romans think of as basically very antisocial behavior. And of course, doing it right where people necessarily can't see them doing it right. And there seems to be something subversive about that. And you know, when you combine that with a tendency not to see the Roman emperor or other gods that protect a community in the minds of a lot of polytheists. Right. As gods or as, you know, needing worship or needing to be, you know, appeased or placated or won over or however you want to frame that, I think it does expose them to like a lot of suspicions. And as a result. Right. You know, we start to see these situations where identifying as a Christian somehow becomes a prosecutable offense if you're accused of it and acknowledge it and they're.

[Mark Gagnon]

Put to death in sometimes remarkable fashion. So I've been told that there'll be public executions and gladiatorial type death rituals. Is that true?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, I mean, insofar as we're able to historicize the vanilla uncertainly, people can debate whether any sea martyr act actually happened or not. And they do. But there is a strong weight of textual tradition indicating that the executions of Christians happen in, you know, Roman bloodsport because that's actually a place where Romans did execute convicts. Right. And Right. If, see, Christians are being convicted of a serious criminal offense in the minds of a Roman judge. Right. If they're willing to take at that level. And again, not all of them do it, but if they're willing to take it that level, that would be one place where a very visible public punishment would happen.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow. Now who is the. I know Constantine, obviously, much later, kind of, you know, after an infamous battle, he and purportedly some of his soldiers, you know, see this apparition, some suggest it's a cross in the sky and, you know, has this, you know, powerful conversion. But prior to Constantine, were there any high ranking or powerful Roman leadership that convert? Or is it really with Constantine that you see like a full fledged conversion of the Roman Empire?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

I think if we're talking about the history, it really is Constantine that we're talking about. Now over the course of late antiquity, Christians do sometimes talk about other emperors who allegedly converted, though that's not commonly accepted. And they're, you know, and again, that might be just things invented in Christian apologetic literature. Right. And so when we're talking about Christianity and like an emperor who converts. Yeah. Constantine's who we think of, especially if we're talking about public acknowledgement. Right, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then as far as apostles and sort of proselytizing outside of the Roman Empire, you know, going east, did they have an easier time, like. Or were they subject to the same type of punishments and, you know, death.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

They are exposed to prosecution and execution to a certain degree, the scale gets debated. But what happens is basically there are moments in the third century where as the Sassanian Persian monarchy is sort of, in a sense, organizing or Zoroastrian priestly hierarchy, there are moments in which there's an interest in at least Christians recognizing a certain subordination. Right. To Zoroastrianism. And by the 4th century, what happens is that there are some executions under a king named Shapur ii, and those executions are portrayed as being very widespread and about trying to eliminate Christians or Christian communities. A debate, though, is like to what degree these are based on what's happening to Christians under the tetrarchs. Right. Because once the tetrarchs really engage in large scalecutions of Christians, at least in certain parts of the Roman Empire, Christians produce a literature in which they depict members of the tetrarchy as doing awful, awful, awful things. And that circulates. And so there's a tendency after that for Christians when they historicize being persecuted. Right. They return to that template. But there are moments in which at least Christian clergy, people are being executed in the 4th century. Why is somewhat debated. Is it an effort? Is it because, you know, the prison monarchy doesn't think people should be Christian, or is it for a specific offense other than that? Right. You know, disrupting tax collection being one thing that, you know, people explore. But the, the short answer is yes and no. So what happens in, like, you know, Persian territories is that the Christians by and large are patronized as one of the communities of that empire. And the imperial model there is that there are different peoples or their own traditions. They're embedded in a very, you know, diverse hierarchy, and they have to do certain things to be good subjects. But largely your traditions are your traditions and you practice your traditions. Right. And that seems to be the way that the Persians approach it. But there are moments where, yeah, Christians do get executed, and you're definitely not supposed to convert a Zoroastrian to Christianity. That's often deemed to be something that's very prohibited.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, I've heard about Zoroastrianism. I know it to be one of the oldest faith traditions that's, I guess, known. You know, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism typically are dated to be some of the oldest. And it's interesting that it was so widespread throughout that part of Persia at that time. Did Christianity ultimately change that or was it Islam that came in later that kind of took out Zoroastrianism in that area?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. I mean, essentially, Zoroastrianism is sort of the. Amongst the. Like, the political elite is sort of the dominant religion. Although what happens is that, you know, Christians and Jews and Sassanian Persia also become very prominent. And as they increasingly get state patronage. Right. There's a lot of coordination among those different faiths. And Christianity seems to, especially since it does proselytize and stuff. Right. It seems to get a lot more momentum in numbers. And something that happens in Sassanian Persia is that if they're really hostile to any particular sort of religious life, it's polytheism. Right. So, you know, ceasing to be a polytheist and, you know, being Jewish or being a Christian actually in many ways puts you in a better position probably over the course of Sassanian Persian history.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

And so if Christianity, for example, is displacing polytheism, that's not necessarily something that Persian kings or aristocrats or government officials would necessarily have objected to, generally. That's my understanding. And I think, yeah. Once the Sassanian Persian Empire is conquered, you know, and that system collapses, that's when, in many ways, you know, Zoroastrianism goes through a different phase. Right. And seems to regress.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then as Christianity spreads through the Roman Empire, Constantine takes the sort of a role as being this, you know, Christian Roman king or Roman Emperor. Is there hostility between the Jews of the Roman Empire and these. This newfound sort of like, theocracy, or I guess not really theocracy, but it's, you know, this religiously governed, you know, power structure.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Right. I would say yes, but in a certain sense. Right. I think it's largely, at least in my experience of the text that I've had exposure to. It's not the hostility of Christians operating government, you know, towards Jews, if anything, because they're in a very disempowered position. Right. For one thing, and what's happening, especially with Constantine, is that increasingly there's a tendency for people running the Roman state, especially as they become more and more Christian, to think of Judea. Right. As a Christian space. Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

The birth of Christianity, the birth of Christ. Interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. And so that's a period where, like, you know, a lot of landmarks in Jerusalem, pilgrimage landmarks.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

They're being identified by Christians. Right. You know, there's an interest on Constantine getting various, you know, things associated with the lifetime of Jesus or the apostolic era from Jerusalem and things like that. And so I think what is happening in many respects over the course of, like, the fourth century and thereafter is that there's a sort of an isolating of Jews, you know, from that topography where they're disempowered within it. Right. You know, the Romans had destroyed the temple before, but, you know, Roman Christians, by and large, don't really want it to be revived, for example. Right. And it doesn't even look like that Jews, by and large, can really live in Jerusalem. There's at least some sources that indicate that they're not supposed to be there except for certain, you know, festivals where they can come and pray or something.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, interesting.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. So there is a sort of imperial hierarchy in place and the balance of power, you know, it works largely in one direction and. Right. And as, you know, Judaism transforms. Right. As rabbis in particular, you know, they're starting to define what it means to be Jewish. Right. You know, cognitively, Jerusalem has a very special space, but it's not like a space that. Right. Observant Jews control and the way that, say, Roman Christians control.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting. And then roughly around the same time, I guess, Islam becomes a cultural force in that same region. What is it, 6th century?

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah. I think when, like, you know, Judea, Jerusalem becomes, you know, integrated into, say, the Umaya Caliphate, seventh century. We're getting a little later than where I can speak with a lot of confidence, but. Yes. Right. And, of course. Yeah. Right. And so. Yeah. And so there's another, like, layer of religious, you know, belief and valuing of Jerusalem as a sacred site at that point as well.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around, like, this one spot, obviously, you know, in modern politics is extremely contested, and there's a ton of, you know, you know, battles and wars and things that are happening in this space throughout, you know, all of, you know, it seems like modern history.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

But just seeing how it all stems really from these pivotal moments is just really fascinating. As much as things change, things sort of stay the same. And this one pocket of the birthplace of all the Abrahamic religions continues to be this hotbed of religious activity I just find remarkable.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, I do, too. I mean, I think sometimes that's why oftentimes ancient history doesn't get the same attention as modern history for various reasons, but in part because people see it as so remote and so disconnected. But in some ways. Right. It actually has had. Things that have happened in the ancient past have had a really, a big impact. Right. Globally. Right. And really, the history of Jerusalem, you know, exemplifies that because it means different things and has different value for different people. And that valuing, you know, goes back far for all of them. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, that's fascinating. I'm curious, are there any other pieces of Roman history as the interplays with early Christianity that you find particularly interesting as we just wrap up here? If there's anything else that you find that you think more people should pay more attention to that you want to underscore? I'm curious if there's anything that's on your mind.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Oh. That people can pay attention to. I actually do think it really. I think knowing the history of the ancient Middle east, including the periods that we've been thinking about, actually can be very important and helpful. And I think it's actually a very important part of, like, a civil dialogue. Right. About, you know, human rights and avoiding awful acts of mass atrocity and finding shared spaces in which people can live. Right. I do think that actually factors in which is, you know. Yeah. I mean, especially in the last year and a half, I've been thinking a lot more about how I teach. Right. The Middle east and antiquity. Right. Because I do think it's important to think about, and I think its entire history is important to understand. And I think that it's a collaborative enterprise that people have to engage in earnestly. Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Well, as someone that's fascinated by history specifically, you know, this time period, I would love to one day go to Jerusalem and see the site and see where so much of the way we understand the modern world was sort of birthed. Right. Like this one tiny little plot of land that has had such a massive global impact, and hopefully, as things become more peaceful in the region, that'll become more available. But, yeah, it's a fascinating little place where so much has happened, and Rome certainly plays a big part in how all that went down.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah, yeah. Rome did have that impact. Right. It does reverberate in its own way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, this has been fascinating, Dr. Andrade, I really appreciate you sitting with me and going through all of this. This has been wonderful.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much. I really enjoyed the conversation.

[Mark Gagnon]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Nathan Andrade]

And I've learned a lot today, too, actually.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm shocked genuinely. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Let's do it again soon. If you've made it to the end of this episode, that's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you. You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest, true communication. A highbrowed type of person that understands this. History is not just dates and names. It is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy, from the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revere took his midnight ride from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for Today and History. Our free newsletter, Today in History brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything, and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History because history's stories shape tomorrow's world. Thank you for watching the episode. We'll see you next time.