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CONFESSIONS Of An Undercover Agent

Camp Gagnon

Tue Aug 19 2025

Summary

Camp Gagnon Podcast Summary
Episode: CONFESSIONS Of An Undercover Agent
Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: Charlie Spillers (former Marine, federal prosecutor, legendary undercover agent)

Episode Overview

This episode of Camp Gagnon features Charlie Spillers, a renowned and seasoned undercover agent who has infiltrated some of the most dangerous criminal organizations in U.S. history. Charlie discusses his life as an undercover officer, sharing harrowing stories from ops with the Dixie Mafia and Marcello crime family, details of large-scale drug busts, and reflections on the emotional toll of deep cover work. The conversation is rich with firsthand anecdotes, practical psychology, and lessons applicable even outside law enforcement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life, Learning to Blend In

Charlie’s background in Mississippi and Louisiana: As the son of an oil field worker who moved around frequently, Charlie became the “new kid” in many schools.
- On learning how to read people:
  
  “I learned that from my grandparents… I’d be looking at their body language... as a kid, I was picking up some tips on body language.” (05:10)
His service in the Marines and time in Vietnam, where he was injured, before entering law enforcement (06:14).

2. Origins in Undercover Work

Joining Baton Rouge PD and being recruited for deep undercover intelligence:
- “I was Baton Rouge's first undercover officer like that.” (07:28)
- No training or backup; operated alone, even using a numbered system for anonymity in reports.
Initial operations: Infiltrating bars frequented by career criminals—burglars, safecrackers.
- Memorable gun story:
  
  “All of a sudden I feel something in my side…Candyman’s got his .38 pressed in my side… That three seconds was like a lifetime.” (13:08)

3. Lessons and Tactics From Deep Cover

The inherent danger of solo undercover work—no surveillance, no backup.
- “It was like being on that high wire, you know, without a net, and being out there all alone.” (21:48)
Key to survival and success:
- “I could always make myself think like the criminals so that...my mindset is the same as yours. But underlying all that is... you never have a question about what you can and can't do.” (22:45)
Building trust: Utilizing intermediaries, acting with sincere engagement, matching body language and attitudes.

4. Dixie Mafia and Establishing Underworld Credibility

Explanation of Dixie Mafia: Loose network of violent criminals and car theft rings.
- “They’d come together to pull jobs...commit contract murders...run stolen car rings and chop shops.” (24:00)
Gaining trust: Using criminal proxies (bail bondsmen, strippers) and faking criminal activity to be vouched for.
- “Your most powerful tool in fighting crime is your mind.” (27:00)

5. The Fragility of Undercover Identity

The ever-present risk of being “burned” due to loose lips among law enforcement or surveillance:
- “If somebody you trusted with the local police department...knew that you were [undercover]...you’d end up being burned...” (30:00)
Anecdote: After a car accident on the way to a planned safecracking, police involvement forced Charlie to reveal his cop status to avoid jail, ending that infiltration (36:54).
- “The police found some tools… they started becoming suspicious… when I was alone with the captain, I said... my name’s not really Mike...” (36:54)
Once ratted out, he returned to the bar and immediately sensed danger.

“One of the women said, Mike, maybe you better go... my undercover car... the back windshield was busted out.” (39:17)

6. Major Drug Investigations: The Air Smuggling Case

8–9 month operation against air smugglers and the Marcello crime family:
- “Southern United States especially was overwhelmed with air smuggling by private airplanes...” (43:55)
- Charlie posed as a wealthy Memphis businessman to negotiate multi-thousand-pound marijuana deals in Houston.
- Orchestrated intricate ruses involving U-Haul trucks and “flash rolls” (showing large sums of cash) to assuage criminal suspicion.
“I show him a half a million in cash… in today’s money about 2 million.” (54:09)
- A standoff lasted for days: “Two days or two and a half days and nights, non-stop negotiations…” (51:26)
- SWAT teams waited outside as the bust finally went down after Charlie’s team safely received the product.

7. The Organizational Web: Marcello Mafia

The Marcello organization’s hierarchy, operations connecting growers in Jamaica, complicit pilots, U.S. mafia brokers, and corrupt officials.
- “They controlled judges, politicians… Carlos Marcello and his mafia family controlled Louisiana…” (68:13)
- Example: Bribing Belize authorities $20k with a Learjet of attorneys and mob associates to free a jailed pilot (Mahaffey).
“Customs identified all eight people on board, including a couple attorneys… found $150,000 in cash…” (65:00)

8. Emotional Toll, Relationships, and Ethics

On the emotional complexity of undercover bonds:
- “There are bad people who do bad things, and there are good people who do bad things…there’s a lot of good people committing crimes, but they’re still doing the bad things.” (77:17)
- He often liked the people he investigated and prosecuted; some later recognized his professionalism, even greeting him warmly in court.
“When you’re dealing with career criminals, they know that it’s professional. Hey, this time you got me… you did a good job getting me." (76:27)
On maintaining composure when unexpectedly encountering old targets:

“What was bad is when you run into them and you’re still undercover…with your wife at a movie, and you say, keep walking, keep walking…” (84:31)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On field reality versus accolades:

“It doesn’t matter how many commendations you’ve received...you still have to put out the trash can on pickup day.” (03:58)
On criminal firearm safety:

“Criminals don’t practice firearm safety.” (15:21)
On the game of trust:

“Sincerity goes a long way… if my mindset is the same thing, I’m sincere because I’m talking to you as the same kind of career criminal you are.” (27:35)
On criminal professionalism:

“It’s professional. Hey, this time you got me, you did a good job…good luck to you, because you ain’t getting me next time.” (76:27)
On the criminal element’s charisma:

“Some of the biggest criminals I’ve ever dealt with…are some really personable people, people you like being around.” (78:35)
On burnout and the job’s grind:

“He made me get up at 5 in the morning to catch an airplane to New York to do an interview...he’s a slave driver, but he’s a great interviewer.” (58:31)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Charlie's childhood and learning body language (05:10)
First undercover job & gun incident (13:00–16:00)
Philosophy of undercover survival (20:00–24:00)
Dixie Mafia infiltration and methods (24:00–28:00)
Car accident ends infiltration with safecrackers (36:54)
Massive air smuggling op & 3,000 lbs marijuana deal (43:42–51:38)
Marcello crime family reach & power (67:21–70:00)
Emotional aftermath and relationships with criminals (76:27–81:00)

Episode Tone and Takeaways

Charlie Spillers weaves thrilling stories with dry Southern wit, humility, and an educator’s calm. His anecdotes highlight both the glamour and peril of undercover work, the psychological chess of building criminal trust, and the quirky, poignant human detail—even world-class lawmen still get chewed out for forgetting the milk.

For anyone fascinated by organized crime, psychological strategy, or real-world law enforcement, this episode delivers an authentic window onto both the criminal underworld and the agent’s unique mindset necessary to survive—and succeed—inside it.

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Transcript

A (0:00)

This is Charlie Spillers, a former Marine federal prosecutor and one of the most legendary deep undercover FBI agents to ever live. He has infiltrated the most dangerous crime organizations in U.S. history. And today he tells us all the details. He went deep undercover working with the Marcelo crime family to arresting pilots of private aircraft carrying thousands of pounds of drugs across international waters. And he even explains the emotional toll of forming relationships undercover and staying in touch with mafia guys even after get busted. This episode is absolutely amazing and Charlie is truly a fantastic storyteller. He goes through every detail and even explains how you can apply undercover techniques to your own personal life, whether it's in jobs, talking to women. Everything you need to know is in this episode. So, ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, sit back, relax, and welcome to Ken. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info. And if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. Lifelock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply. Charlie Spillers. How are you, sir?

B (1:28)

Hey, great, Mark. Thanks for having me on your program.

A (1:30)

Of course, of course. I'm very excited to chat with you. You have a fascinating life story. Even more fascinating than I originally thought. When we sat down, I thought I was just speaking to an undercover agent, a justice attache to Iraq, and a federal prosecutor. But you have a deep history that goes all over the place.

B (1:53)

Well, let me interrupt there. As oftentimes tell people in your audience, let's lower expectations a little bit. Okay, thanks for that great intro.

A (2:02)

No, no, no, not at all. I mean, like I just said, it's not every day that we get to talk, you know, a smooth talking Southern lawyer, you know.

B (2:10)

Yeah, I bet. Now, I tell people that many times when I get introduced, people will refer to, you know, certain things that I've done in the past. And oftentimes they'll bring up that, you know, with my work in Iraq, when I worked in Iraq for the Department of Justice, my work in Iraq was commended by the FBI director, by the Deputy Attorney General, by the British ambassador, and by Britain's Minister of State for the Armed forces. They all commended my work in Iraq. And I used to think, and having been in law enforcement too, I really thought this. I used to think that commendations like that meant Something. But then one day, you know, I came home from work, and this is in Oxford, Mississippi, when I was a federal prosecutor. I came home from work and I picked up groceries at the grocery store, Kroger, for my wife. And I put them on the island in the kitchen and turned away, and she was going through them, and she said, the milk. I said, what? She said, the milk. Where's the milk? And I said, well, you know, it should be in one of the bags. I don't see the milk. I said, well, it's got to be in a bag. Well, I don't think you got the milk. I said, but isn't it a bag? No, you didn't get the milk. But. But you didn't get the milk. I said, but. But I've been commended by the British ambassador. Said, I don't care. You. You forgot the milk. So the. The lesson I learned from that is it doesn't matter how many commendations you've received, doesn't matter how many thousands of books your books, if so, you still have to remember what to pick up at the grocery store.

B (6:49)

Well, after I got back, I went to work for Southerndale Telephone Company for a year. But I got to missing the excitement and the feeling that I was doing something that, you know, had influence and important. So I. I left that job to go into law enforcement. Took a cut in pay and went into law enforcement. I joined the Baton Rouge Police Department. I was in uniform patrol for two months. And I used to think, gosh, on Friday and Saturday night, the radio's popping. You don't have time to stop and eat or get coffee. And at of the shift, you're still writing your reports. You know, the adrenaline's flowing. I used to think, gosh, this is so good, so good. In fact, I thought that was the best thing to do until the captain in charge of intelligence asked if he could come visit me and my wife at our apartment. So he came over and we had coffee, and he explained that they had a new intelligence unit. And he asked if I would volunteer to go undercover in intelligence. And I had no idea what that meant, I had no idea at all, except it sounded exciting. I said, yep, sign me up, coach. So basically, he said, this was Captain Watson. He said, all right, don't report for your next shift. Stay away from the police department. Don't come around the police department at all. And later on, whenever I'd write intelligence reports, I wouldn't put my name on the intelligence reports. Instead, I would put a number. I think my number was seven. I put a number so that no one would know that I was undercover officer. And if any of that information was shared with detectives for follow up, they would never know it came from an undercover officer. They would sanitize it. And so anyway, so I started out deep cover and intelligence. And one of the first things I was involved in was infiltrating rings of burglars and safecrackers. Career criminals, it turned out. Of course, I'm learning all this on the job. I mean, there wasn't any training. And basically I was Baton Rouge's first undercover officer. Like that. So I find out that they have a couple, two or three bars that the career criminals hang out at. It's almost like their headquarters. And by career criminals, I mean people who 247 prey on the public. They're committing burglaries, they're hidden businesses, they're peeling the safes, robbing people. That's all they do. That's how they make their living. So anyway, I infiltrated those groups, a couple of those groups, and I got in real good with a safecracker named Randy, who was famous in that underworld part. And in fact, I think in the book Confessions of an Undercover Agent, I tell about being in a bar with Randy and a sidekick, Candyman. It's the middle of the afternoon, and we're sitting on bar stews at the bar. And while we're there, Randy says, hey, let me show you. Let me show you something. Reaches on his shirt and he pulls out a.38. Blue Steel.38. He passes it under the counter to Candyman. Between us. Candyman looks it over. He passes it to me, and I look it over. Of course, as I'm looking it over in the bar, you know what I'm thinking? You know, I'm thinking for my intelligence report, I need to see what the serial number is and remember the serial number so that when I write my intelligence report tonight, I'll put that serial number in it and later on it can be traced and then, you know, whatever for whatever good. But the problem was, even though it was afternoon, it's dim in the bar. Blue steel revolver. And I couldn't make out the serial number. So I said, hey, Randy, I can use this. I said, I'll give it back to you tomorrow. And I go and I slip it in my pocket. And when I did that, wow, you would think it was a harness nest that somebody had poked him. Man, he got upset. Mike, Mike. I was using the name Mike. Mike. Give it. Give back. Give it, Give it back. And Candyman turned him. Give it back, Give it back. I said, hey, man, I give it back tomorrow. And I go take a sip of my beer and playing the tough guy and give it back, give it back. All of a sudden I feel something in my side and. And Candyman's got his.38 pressed in my side in the bar and his fingers on the trigger. He said, give it back. Give it back, Mike. And I'm thinking, of course, I'm not thinking slow. I'm thinking fast. I'm thinking real fast. That. Well, it's their headquarters. But it's. He won't shoot me in here, you know, so there's no big deal. I'll just play tough guy, you know, that goes like that. And I say, hey, man, I'll get back tomorrow. And I go to take a drink and I hear click. Yeah, that's right. Click. And I look down and he's pulled the hammer of the.38 all the way back. And his fingers on the trigger. And it stuck in my side. And he said, give it back. Now look at him. His eyes. I can see this in the light. His eyes are glazing over like dead fish. And I said, okay, okay, man. Okay, okay. I give it back. Of course, you know, a cock gun can go off so easy, you know, a revolver, for those who know, all it takes is a little pressure. Bam. That hammer slams home and bow. So I said, okay, okay. But I needed to be deliberate about it because if I all of a sudden reach for my pocket, you know, he might jerk the trigger. So I say, okay, okay, so. But I gotta go fast enough so he knows I'm complying. So I reached down, pull out the gun, and I hand it back past him to Randy. Candyman still has the gun in my side. Well, now here comes the real dangerous part. Candyman uncocks the gun in my side. For those of you know, guns, how do you uncock a revolver? You put your thumb on the hammer and you pull the trigger and you try to lower the hammer down slowly. But the problem with that is this. The hammer can Slip. And if the hammer slips, it goes down, and bam. Boy, my guts are blown out. And you try to lower it slowly. And I say try because those springs are real strong. And if it goes down too fast, bam. It blows my guts out. So he does that. He pulls the trigger. He starts lowering the hammer, and he starts lowering it down. And you know, that took him. And I've told this story many times because it's so vivid and so real to me. That probably took three seconds for him to lower that hammer all the way until it was safe. Maybe three seconds. Now, think about this relatively. If you're sitting on a park bench and you see a pretty woman pass by, well, three seconds can go pretty quickly. If you're in a dentist chair and has a drill on your sore tooth, how long is three seconds then? Well, that's what I'm saying. That three seconds was like a lifetime. And you know that as I tell people that three seconds, for me, that three seconds, the world was frozen. I wasn't part. Mark. I wasn't part of the world you're in. I wasn't part of this walking, talking, breathing world that your audience is in. That three seconds is gone forever. That lifetime of three seconds was gone forever, forever. Well, he finally lowered the hammer. And as I tell people, I learned an important lesson from that. That was early in my undercover career. And the lesson I learned from that, that helped me throughout my career, is that I learned that criminals don't practice firearm safety. And unfortunately, I don't know, thank goodness we can laugh about it now. But I cover in my book some other times when they did not practice firearm safety. Maybe we need to give some kind of safety course for career criminals where they come wear a ski mask and they take the course and.

A (16:10)

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B (20:33)

Yeah. No one was around, and. Yeah, and I'd get up and no one tells you, hey, you need to do this or do that or go here or go there or try this or that. You've got to think about it. So I didn't have this army or not army, but I didn't have all these resources backing me up. And when you're out there and you're by yourself and you don't have surveillance, and if all of a sudden something goes wrong, it can go wrong in a bad way. Because, you know, somebody can. Somebody can say as I, you know, I trained agents later on in undercover that I told them, look, if somebody becomes suspicious of you, think about this. You can even have surveillance. You can be in a motel room with a bad guy. You can have surveillance in the next room listening to everything that's heard, and a bad guy might turn to you and say, hey, I think you're the heat. Bam. And you're gone. So as I tell agents when I train them, I'm going to teach you how to keep the guy from ever having a suspicion in the first place. That's the key thing right there and the safest way of doing it. But the thing about it is, you know, the times that I worked undercover, it was like being on that high wire, you know, without a net. Without a net, and being out there all alone. And I don't say that in a way that I was a victim doing it. I just say that it's hard for people to understand how all of a sudden you're just by yourself. And if something goes wrong, if you say the wrong thing, if you say something with the wrong emphasis, if you look the wrong way, if you use the wrong kind of body language, all of a sudden, people start looking at you crazy, and things can go bad. So one of the reasons I loved undercover was not only because it was exciting. It was because you had to use every single ounce of your mental ability and your creativity to try to keep people from being suspicious. And at the same time, you had to do your job under legal constraints, under departmental policies, and under moral constraints. So you had these constraints, and you had to do your job under all those. And you had to always. And here's another thing, too. I was thinking about this the other day. One reason I think I was so successful undercover is I could always make myself think like the criminals so that if I'm with you, Mark, and you're a career criminal and you're a safecracker or you're a major drug dealer, I'm thinking the same way you are. And so whenever you and I are talking, I don't have to think what I need to say. I just say it. Because my mindset is the same as yours. But underlying all that is the fact that you're a law enforcement officer and you never have a question about what you can and can't do.

B (24:00)

That Dixie Mafia is a loose network of career criminals, many of them violent career criminals, mostly across the southern states. And they would come together to pull jobs. They would sometimes go in and arm rob a high stakes poker game that other criminals were involved in, you know, wearing ski masks or they'd go in and where they found out somebody had a safe, go in and rob him, or they'd go commit contract murders. A bad bunch. But they're also involved in stolen car rings and in chop shops, especially in northeast Mississippi, which was notorious for that. And these cars would be stolen and chopped up for parts or stolen, sent to all over different parts of the US Anyway to infiltrate them. You know, I'm the new guy showing up. I can't just show up and say, hey, man, I'm. I'm one of y' all too. Yeah, yeah. Where do I sign up? So instead I have to find out, well, you know, who's part of this? Who do they trust? So I find out there's a bail bondsman that they trust who also has a pawn shop. So I show up his pawn shop, get introduced to him, and then I tell him, look, man, we took off a truckload of TVs, whole truckload. And don't worry, it wasn't around here. It's like over in Alabama. So there's no heat on around here. We've already gotten rid of it TVs, but we've got some left. Would you be interested in a brand new TV still in the box for like $30 or whatever? You know, that's back when they cost a lot more. And you guys say, yeah, well, yeah, I guess so. Well, all right, when you want me to bring it by, well, I'll close it, you know, such and such time or more. Bring it right after that. And so then I go to another town, to Walmart, and I buy a tv and I take the markings off to where it can be traced, and I go deliver it to him and get the $30. And then he starts vouching for me, you know, to the. To the career criminals. Well, yeah, yeah, he's involved in this. Or show up and open the trunk and show him. Dozen AR15 rifles. So, yeah, we got these out of an armory. I'm taking them up to a guy to unload them right now. But if you ever want some, I can get you some. Oh, man. So that's kind of thing makes. Makes them vouch for you. But here, here's the thing about it. When I do, when I did those, and I tell this to agents when I'm training them, no one came around and said, charlie, hey, why don't you try this? Or why don't you try that? You've got to think of it. And as I tell law enforcement officer and agent, you've got to think. You got to use your head and you've got to think of it. Because your most powerful tool and fighting crime is your mind. It's your brain. That's your most powerful tool.

A (41:29)

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B (46:34)

Yeah, I was a wealthy business. I wore a three piece suit. I was a wealthy businessman in Memphis and that I was backed by some other businessmen and some lawyers who invest money, invest money in big drug loads. So what he was going to do is he was going to sell one of those planeloads to me. And he was trying to get the marcelo people to allow him to do that, but they had all their loads promised that were coming up. So, you know, I didn't get to buy one of those loads. But he, when I meet with him various times, and I usually had a tape recorder going with, you know, a couple hours of real, real tape, he would tell me so much about the fields they were using to land and about the ministers in different countries and government officials in different countries who were helping them, you know, part of the operation and what kind of planes they were using. He was telling me so much that we wound up being able to rip off, I think, two plane loads of drugs. One in Belize and another plane load that landed in Franklinton, Louisiana, An Arrow commander with about 1700 pounds. And I kept US Customs and DEA from seizing that. When it landed, he landed it and he offloaded it into these vans and the vans, they followed. The vans and vans went to this warehouse deep in the woods that they had built where they were storing drugs. Meanwhile, after he unloaded, which only took a few minutes, he flew that Aero commander to the coast airstrip on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. And I had him stay away from busting him and seizing that plane because I wanted to maintain my cover with him. So what happened was later that night, late that night, the agents got search warrants for that warehouse. They hit the warehouse, and when they hit the warehouse, there were, I think, £750 left there. They had already moved the rest of it out. But. But what happened was the pilot then after he took the plane to the Gulf coast, they cleaned it out there. He drove back up to North Mississippi where he had a restaurant or he had a restaurant. And then when he met with me after that, he was telling me all about it, and he was saying, yeah, he said. He was telling me about it being seized at the warehouse. And I said, man, we don't have heat on. There's no heat on you, is there? He said, no, no, no. He don't me said, we think what's happened is there was a shrimp boat load full of drugs, about 10 or 20,000 pounds that came in, and they went to the warehouse. And what happened is, we think that was tracked to the warehouse, and when they hit that, and it was already gone by the time they hit it. And so when they hit that and they got what was left of my load. So we don't think there's any heat on me. Don't worry. Don't worry. Well, what happened was, think about it. If you're in the Marcelo organization, you've got a pilot and he's lost two plane loads of drugs. They did what I figured they were going to do. They put him on the back burner for a while and that's when he got back up with me. And he said, hey, look, I've got this other group. They're down on the border, Texas, Mexican border. And if you're interested, I can get you 1500 pounds. I said, what price? He told me, I said, well, look, I can get it at such and such price. I'll take £3,000. So we negotiated, agreed to £3,000 for that amount of money. But the problem is, I was telling him, but I need it delivered to North Mississippi. They wouldn't do that. All right, well, how about if we meet in Shreveport? They delivered to Shreveport and they delivered to me tonight. Wouldn't do that. You've got to go down to the vet, what they call the valley down around McAllen, Texas and all that. The problem with that is that's kind of like enemy territory. If you go down to the border area, that's where they have too much control, they've got too many eyes. They know what's going on. So if you go down there, I mean, you're walking into a trap. So eventually we agreed to do the deal in Houston, Texas, because they have a ranch about 50 miles outside Houston that they use for transshipment point. So I agreed to meet them in Houston, do the deal there. I wrote about that in the book. That was, gosh, I flew to Houston and for about two days or two and a half days and nights, non stop negotiations with them.

A (58:58)

I appreciate it. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to keep you up. What's up, guys? I'm on the road. That's right. I'm going to Burlington, Vermont, Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, and a bunch of other dates that I will be adding to my website. Markagnon live.com. i would love to see you guys there. Obviously, if you don't know, I'm a stand up comedian and stand up comedy is my passion. The thing I love to do, and seeing you guys all come out to the shows truly makes my life. I hang out after the show and say, what's up? To everybody. So if you want to come through, check out the show say what's up to me, it would mean the world. You can see me at all these dates and more on my website, markagnon live.com and I'll see you guys on the road. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because we got merch, if you don't know. We got camp research and development merchandise. You can see it right here. Also, my buddy Andrew Schultz was actually just out hang with his fam, having a good old time. All of a sudden, a dude walks up to me, goes, yo, what's up, Schultze? And guess what? He was wearing this shirt right here. So shout out to that legend, whoever you are. You're the man. I appreciate that. And if you want to cop your very own camp threads, go to camp-rd.com we're dropping all sorts of new gear. You can see some of the images here of some of the products that we got. And anytime you buy a T shirt, you help this show directly operate. It is a huge, huge lift. And I'm very grateful for everyone that reps the gear, especially at the live shows. Seeing you guys wearing the T shirts at the shows truly makes my life. It's the coolest thing ever. I cannot believe people are actually wearing clothes that me and my friends are designing and sending imessage chats like, yo, you think this is cool? It's the craziest thing in the world. And I'm so grateful for everyone that does it. Check it out. We got the link in the description. Now let's get back to the show. So I'm curious, in that case, can you explain a little how the criminal organization works? Right. You have these growers in Jamaica that are growing weed, right? They're growing marijuana. And then you have, you know, in just for example, the Marcelo family that's in New Orleans, right? Are they the ones that are organizing the grow and are they the ones with the power that is making the deal all happen? Are they like contracting the pilots? Like, what is the sort of hierarchy of how these things operate?

B (60:59)

Yeah, normally people like the Marcelos weren't getting involved in actual growing. You know, you've got the growers down in Jamaica and in other countries who are producing it, and they're looking to sell their product. And then they have protection from some of the officials and the ministers in government. And then when you get the Marcelo's involved in picking up these big loads, all they're interested in is getting that load and getting it back to us and getting it Distributed. I can't remember if I covered this in a book or not. They lost two or three airplanes. One crashed in Jamaica. At least one more crash, maybe in Florida with dope in the plane or the guys on the way to pick up the dope. So it was pretty risky for the pilots. And what they were, what the Marcellus were doing. They were playing paying the pilots a set fee, as I recall. I think the pilot I was dealing with was telling me they were getting 60,000 per load. Something interesting happened with Marcellus, though, is trying to remember when all this came about. When. When the pilot I was dealing with, his name was Billy Wayne Mahaffey from Mississippi. When he flew up in the Aero Commander with about 1700 pounds, he dropped it off in Louisiana and then he flew over to Diamond Head and they cleaned out the plane. Then he drove back up to North Mississippi. Well, what happened was the Marcelo organization decided that they needed to get another plane, replace that plane, and. Wait, wait, wait. I'm getting my facts confused. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This is from not getting much sleep after the first plane got busted. He was in Belize and it was with this pilot. It was 1500 pounds. The police, the authorities in police arrested the pilot, Mahaffy and his co pilot, and they seized the plane, seized the dope. So Mahaffey's in jail in Belize. This had just happened. But what happened after that? And I know this because Mahaffey eventually got out, came back, met with me and told me all about it. What happened was after the bus happened, right after that, a Lear jet, private Learjet, left New Orleans and flew down to Belize. And people in that Lear jet took money to bribe Mahaffey's way out of jail. I think it was going to be $20,000. So what happened was Mahaffy had a hearing. And in that hearing, he and his co pilot were sentenced to like 90 days in jail or in prison. And the bribe was paid. And instead of serving time, the authorities drove him to the Mexican border, turned them loose, and then they made their way back to the US and that's when my happy got up with me. And while the tape recorder is going, he's telling me all about it. Yeah. And they flew down Learjet. And here's what happened. Independently, customs was watching that Lear jet, and when it landed back in New Orleans, from police, customs identified all eight people on board, including a couple attorneys who. Couple attorneys and a couple other figures who were linked, who linked into this. And they also found $150,000 in cash in an envelope. Nobody on the plane would claim it. So finally, one of the attorneys claimed 150,000. Then I think it was about two weeks or three weeks later, that Arrow commander that Mahaffey later used, two men went to Oklahoma and they bought that used arrow commander for 182,000 in cash. So you see, see where all this is going? And, and the. The money and the people that were linked to the Arrow Commander included two of the men who were on that Lear jet coming back. And either one or two of those men were. Had been previously identified as mafia members down in New Orleans. So you see what happened. All of a sudden they send people down, take care of my Happy, get him out. Then they come back, they've got this money, they want to get a plane and keep on running. That's when they get the Aero Commander half. He takes another trip, but he's telling me too much about when he's leaving. So custom goes out with our people, they put a transponder on it, and when he flies back in, they track him on the transponder, and that's how they know he landed it. I think it was Franklin or Franklin in Louisiana. And they actually saw a. The vans, different vans pick up the drugs and drive off. And then he flew over to Diamond Head. So that's how Happy wound up losing two different planes and put on the back burner.

B (77:17)

I wrote in. I think in the book Confessions of an Undercover Agent, and I wrote in the epilogue of that, if you want to really read the gist of that, read the epilogues, maybe three or four pages. Read that, read that. I believe in the epilogue, I pointed out that there are bad people who do bad things, and there are good people who do bad things. And that when I was a. Later, when I was a federal prosecutor, when I could, I would try to keep. Treat them differently when I could. But, yeah, there's a lot of good people who are committing crimes and doing bad things, but they're still doing the bad things. And if you're. If you're a prosecutor, and, of course, if you're a judge, too, and you recognize that, you try to treat them differently, because those are the people that can probably be rehabilitated. They're the folks who appear before the judge and are sincerely sorry when they say they are, whereas, you know, the others, you know, it's just a game just to do that. But, yeah, yeah, I've liked a lot of people I've dealt with. They had good personalities. In fact, criminals, criminal leaders, often have charisma they're often likable. And see, TV gives us this image of this crazy, obnoxious guy in a dark alley. You know, that, oh my God, he's so evil, you don't want to be around him. Well, some of the biggest criminals I've ever dealt with, whether it be drugs, stolen car rings, white collar criminals, or some really personable people, people you like being around, and there are people that you know, their friends who know him said, no, no, I'll be a character witness. He's a nice guy. He couldn't do that. He's a nice guy. Well, the problem is people who are nice guys and sometimes nice women do sometimes commit major crimes. Major crimes where maybe it's something like medical health care fraud, where they're defrauding people of millions of dollars and they're a nice guy and they go to church and everybody loves them, but they're committing this terrible crime. So, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of good people out there doing bad things.

B (80:53)

Ah, I'm trying to think. Yeah, yeah. One of. One of the. Gosh. Dean Hill, he was head of one of those DC Mafia car rings in northeast Mississippi. Big bruiser of a guy, big bully guy. And one of the first times I dealt with him, he drove me around and I've got the recorder going. He said, you see that car? He said, I've got eight people that work for me. I've been doing this more than five years. You tell me what you want. You see that car? It'll be gone. I put it wherever you want. You do. You know, we drive around. He's saying this and that. Anyway, later on. Later on, you know, he gets busted out when we bust out the people who were involved in the stolen car. Wrangler, who. And some of those people tried to harm these two women who had helped us, too. And thank goodness the women weren't hurt badly, but they tried to harm them. Dean Hill went to prison. Dean Hill went to prison over stolen cars. And while he was in prison, I became a federal prosecutor. And while I was a federal prosecutor, his case came up. And I said, dean Hill, what's this case on? They said, well, he got released from prison. You know, he's on parole, but he's got. They. He had a gun on him, which is violation of pro. Yeah, one night he was in a nightclub, and he stuck a gun in somebody's mouth and threatened to kill him. So now, you know, we're going to revoke him and we're charging with being a, you know, convicted felon with a firearm. And another prosecutor was trying the case, and he had me go with him to try the case. And so here's Dean Hill, who had sold me stolen cars. And then he walks into court, and I'm sitting there as a federal prosecutor prosecute him on a different crime. I think he wound up pleading guilty, and we didn't have to go to trial on that. Well, jump ahead. And years later, Dean Hill got out of prison. When he got out next, he went into methamphetamine and went into it big time. And I think he's the one that had a picture of a bed full of cash and guns and a little baby on the bed. Anyway, he got busted on that. Another prosecutor was handling the case. And I went and stood in for the prosecutor, for the citizen on Dean Hill. And when I walked in, Hill saw me and said, charlie. Charlie, man, I'm so glad to see you. How you doing? I'm doing fine. He's good. He said, look, man, on this, you know, my lawyer told me to go ahead and. And do this plea. Guilty and everything. He said, you think it's all right? If you think so, I'll do it. I said, look, I can't. I can't give you advice like that.