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- [00:00]
A
This is Charlie Spillers, a former Marine federal prosecutor and one of the most legendary deep undercover FBI agents to ever live. He has infiltrated the most dangerous crime organizations in U.S. history. And today he tells us all the details. He went deep undercover working with the Marcelo crime family to arresting pilots of private aircraft carrying thousands of pounds of drugs across international waters. And he even explains the emotional toll of forming relationships undercover and staying in touch with mafia guys even after get busted. This episode is absolutely amazing and Charlie is truly a fantastic storyteller. He goes through every detail and even explains how you can apply undercover techniques to your own personal life, whether it's in jobs, talking to women. Everything you need to know is in this episode. So, ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, sit back, relax, and welcome to Ken. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info. And if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. Lifelock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply. Charlie Spillers. How are you, sir?
- [01:28]
B
Hey, great, Mark. Thanks for having me on your program.
- [01:31]
A
Of course, of course. I'm very excited to chat with you. You have a fascinating life story. Even more fascinating than I originally thought. When we sat down, I thought I was just speaking to an undercover agent, a justice attache to Iraq, and a federal prosecutor. But you have a deep history that goes all over the place.
- [01:54]
B
Well, let me interrupt there. As oftentimes tell people in your audience, let's lower expectations a little bit. Okay, thanks for that great intro.
- [02:02]
A
No, no, no, not at all. I mean, like I just said, it's not every day that we get to talk, you know, a smooth talking Southern lawyer, you know.
- [02:11]
B
Yeah, I bet. Now, I tell people that many times when I get introduced, people will refer to, you know, certain things that I've done in the past. And oftentimes they'll bring up that, you know, with my work in Iraq, when I worked in Iraq for the Department of Justice, my work in Iraq was commended by the FBI director, by the Deputy Attorney General, by the British ambassador, and by Britain's Minister of State for the Armed forces. They all commended my work in Iraq. And I used to think, and having been in law enforcement too, I really thought this. I used to think that commendations like that meant Something. But then one day, you know, I came home from work, and this is in Oxford, Mississippi, when I was a federal prosecutor. I came home from work and I picked up groceries at the grocery store, Kroger, for my wife. And I put them on the island in the kitchen and turned away, and she was going through them, and she said, the milk. I said, what? She said, the milk. Where's the milk? And I said, well, you know, it should be in one of the bags. I don't see the milk. I said, well, it's got to be in a bag. Well, I don't think you got the milk. I said, but isn't it a bag? No, you didn't get the milk. But. But you didn't get the milk. I said, but. But I've been commended by the British ambassador. Said, I don't care. You. You forgot the milk. So the. The lesson I learned from that is it doesn't matter how many commendations you've received, doesn't matter how many thousands of books your books, if so, you still have to remember what to pick up at the grocery store.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
And you still have to remember to put out the trash can on trash can on pickup day. And you still have to pay full price, or in my case, senior price, for a cup of coffee when you go out. So, you know, all that doesn't mean a whole lot, especially when you're at home.
- [04:15]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's a good lesson. Right. It doesn't matter how many men you help, there's always a woman you're going.
- [04:19]
B
To let down that's going to keep you straight. That's right.
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A
That's exactly right. So let's start at the beginning.
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B
All right.
- [04:26]
A
So there's a few things, and I don't want to deviate too far, but I do think I might contextualize some of our conversation.
- [04:32]
B
Right.
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A
So remind me, where did you grow up?
- [04:35]
B
I grew up in Mississippi and Louisiana. And my. My father worked in the oil field. And for those that are familiar with the oil field, that means you move about every three years, whether you want to or not. So we moved from town to town and state to state. And as I was growing up, I was always the new kid in the middle of the school year in a new town, walking into a classroom of complete strangers. So that was my life growing up.
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A
So you were used to being undercover?
- [05:10]
B
Well, in a way. I tell you, though, one thing I learned, I think that was real helpful, and that was body language. And I learned that from my grandparents. My grandfather was A trapper and a fisherman in Louisiana. He was a renowned hunter, too. And they spoke Cajun French, but they also spoke English. But when people would come over to visit, their friends would come over to visit, they would start speaking French. And when I would stay there in summers as a kid, I didn't know what they were saying, but I'd be looking at their body language, and of course, they were talking with their hands and bodies and all that, and I'd kind of get an idea of maybe how the conversation was going. So as a kid, I was picking up some tips on body language.
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A
You were learning all about Buku's fish. Oh, yeah, I can imagine.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So you're moving around from different high schools, and you kind of got to be the new kid. You got to fit in. You got to learn how to blend in on a bunch of different environments.
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B
Right.
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A
You graduate, join the Marines, and then immediately you go to Vietnam.
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B
Right.
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A
And then when you return from Vietnam, which I know this is a big deviation here, but I want to focus on some of the undercover work. But you do have a book on Vietnam coming out at some point, maybe.
- [06:24]
B
The next few years. Right. Working on that now, which I think.
- [06:27]
A
People should be acutely aware of. You were actually injured in Vietnam, which is, I mean, just a pretty remarkable and, I mean, tragic sort of, you know, delineation in American history. And the fact that you lived it is fascinating. But you return home and then immediately get involved in law enforcement.
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B
Right.
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A
And what is that first. That first introduction to law enforcement?
- [06:49]
B
Well, after I got back, I went to work for Southerndale Telephone Company for a year. But I got to missing the excitement and the feeling that I was doing something that, you know, had influence and important. So I. I left that job to go into law enforcement. Took a cut in pay and went into law enforcement. I joined the Baton Rouge Police Department. I was in uniform patrol for two months. And I used to think, gosh, on Friday and Saturday night, the radio's popping. You don't have time to stop and eat or get coffee. And at of the shift, you're still writing your reports. You know, the adrenaline's flowing. I used to think, gosh, this is so good, so good. In fact, I thought that was the best thing to do until the captain in charge of intelligence asked if he could come visit me and my wife at our apartment. So he came over and we had coffee, and he explained that they had a new intelligence unit. And he asked if I would volunteer to go undercover in intelligence. And I had no idea what that meant, I had no idea at all, except it sounded exciting. I said, yep, sign me up, coach. So basically, he said, this was Captain Watson. He said, all right, don't report for your next shift. Stay away from the police department. Don't come around the police department at all. And later on, whenever I'd write intelligence reports, I wouldn't put my name on the intelligence reports. Instead, I would put a number. I think my number was seven. I put a number so that no one would know that I was undercover officer. And if any of that information was shared with detectives for follow up, they would never know it came from an undercover officer. They would sanitize it. And so anyway, so I started out deep cover and intelligence. And one of the first things I was involved in was infiltrating rings of burglars and safecrackers. Career criminals, it turned out. Of course, I'm learning all this on the job. I mean, there wasn't any training. And basically I was Baton Rouge's first undercover officer. Like that. So I find out that they have a couple, two or three bars that the career criminals hang out at. It's almost like their headquarters. And by career criminals, I mean people who 247 prey on the public. They're committing burglaries, they're hidden businesses, they're peeling the safes, robbing people. That's all they do. That's how they make their living. So anyway, I infiltrated those groups, a couple of those groups, and I got in real good with a safecracker named Randy, who was famous in that underworld part. And in fact, I think in the book Confessions of an Undercover Agent, I tell about being in a bar with Randy and a sidekick, Candyman. It's the middle of the afternoon, and we're sitting on bar stews at the bar. And while we're there, Randy says, hey, let me show you. Let me show you something. Reaches on his shirt and he pulls out a.38. Blue Steel.38. He passes it under the counter to Candyman. Between us. Candyman looks it over. He passes it to me, and I look it over. Of course, as I'm looking it over in the bar, you know what I'm thinking? You know, I'm thinking for my intelligence report, I need to see what the serial number is and remember the serial number so that when I write my intelligence report tonight, I'll put that serial number in it and later on it can be traced and then, you know, whatever for whatever good. But the problem was, even though it was afternoon, it's dim in the bar. Blue steel revolver. And I couldn't make out the serial number. So I said, hey, Randy, I can use this. I said, I'll give it back to you tomorrow. And I go and I slip it in my pocket. And when I did that, wow, you would think it was a harness nest that somebody had poked him. Man, he got upset. Mike, Mike. I was using the name Mike. Mike. Give it. Give back. Give it, Give it back. And Candyman turned him. Give it back, Give it back. I said, hey, man, I give it back tomorrow. And I go take a sip of my beer and playing the tough guy and give it back, give it back. All of a sudden I feel something in my side and. And Candyman's got his.38 pressed in my side in the bar and his fingers on the trigger. He said, give it back. Give it back, Mike. And I'm thinking, of course, I'm not thinking slow. I'm thinking fast. I'm thinking real fast. That. Well, it's their headquarters. But it's. He won't shoot me in here, you know, so there's no big deal. I'll just play tough guy, you know, that goes like that. And I say, hey, man, I'll get back tomorrow. And I go to take a drink and I hear click. Yeah, that's right. Click. And I look down and he's pulled the hammer of the.38 all the way back. And his fingers on the trigger. And it stuck in my side. And he said, give it back. Now look at him. His eyes. I can see this in the light. His eyes are glazing over like dead fish. And I said, okay, okay, man. Okay, okay. I give it back. Of course, you know, a cock gun can go off so easy, you know, a revolver, for those who know, all it takes is a little pressure. Bam. That hammer slams home and bow. So I said, okay, okay. But I needed to be deliberate about it because if I all of a sudden reach for my pocket, you know, he might jerk the trigger. So I say, okay, okay, so. But I gotta go fast enough so he knows I'm complying. So I reached down, pull out the gun, and I hand it back past him to Randy. Candyman still has the gun in my side. Well, now here comes the real dangerous part. Candyman uncocks the gun in my side. For those of you know, guns, how do you uncock a revolver? You put your thumb on the hammer and you pull the trigger and you try to lower the hammer down slowly. But the problem with that is this. The hammer can Slip. And if the hammer slips, it goes down, and bam. Boy, my guts are blown out. And you try to lower it slowly. And I say try because those springs are real strong. And if it goes down too fast, bam. It blows my guts out. So he does that. He pulls the trigger. He starts lowering the hammer, and he starts lowering it down. And you know, that took him. And I've told this story many times because it's so vivid and so real to me. That probably took three seconds for him to lower that hammer all the way until it was safe. Maybe three seconds. Now, think about this relatively. If you're sitting on a park bench and you see a pretty woman pass by, well, three seconds can go pretty quickly. If you're in a dentist chair and has a drill on your sore tooth, how long is three seconds then? Well, that's what I'm saying. That three seconds was like a lifetime. And you know that as I tell people that three seconds, for me, that three seconds, the world was frozen. I wasn't part. Mark. I wasn't part of the world you're in. I wasn't part of this walking, talking, breathing world that your audience is in. That three seconds is gone forever. That lifetime of three seconds was gone forever, forever. Well, he finally lowered the hammer. And as I tell people, I learned an important lesson from that. That was early in my undercover career. And the lesson I learned from that, that helped me throughout my career, is that I learned that criminals don't practice firearm safety. And unfortunately, I don't know, thank goodness we can laugh about it now. But I cover in my book some other times when they did not practice firearm safety. Maybe we need to give some kind of safety course for career criminals where they come wear a ski mask and they take the course and.
- [15:28]
A
Not a bad idea.
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B
Yeah. Proper handling of firearms. Yeah. So you don't endanger people.
- [15:32]
A
Trigger discipline.
- [15:33]
B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
Hold it straight up.
- [15:35]
B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
Oh, my goodness. I mean, that is such a stressful moment.
- [15:40]
B
But, you know, that brings up something else, too, about undercover. And I know you've interviewed FBI agents who worked undercover. I had looked at some of those interviews because when we talked about doing an interview, well, I wanted to see, you know, how you did your job. And I don't have to tell your audience this. I came away very impressed by how you do your interviews.
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A
I appreciate that.
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B
I mean, I mean, it was very impressive in depth.
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A
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- [20:03]
B
The thing is, when people think about an undercover, they sometimes think, oh, FBI undercover, man. They can, they can put on fake companies, fake bank accounts. They can do this, you know, for a cover. But when I worked undercover, most of the time I didn't even have surveillance. It was just me by Myself. And then later on, you know, I had surveillance later on. But when I. When I was in intelligence, it was just me.
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A
Yeah, especially. Nobody was around Baton Rouge at that time. You were the first guy.
- [20:34]
B
Yeah. No one was around, and. Yeah, and I'd get up and no one tells you, hey, you need to do this or do that or go here or go there or try this or that. You've got to think about it. So I didn't have this army or not army, but I didn't have all these resources backing me up. And when you're out there and you're by yourself and you don't have surveillance, and if all of a sudden something goes wrong, it can go wrong in a bad way. Because, you know, somebody can. Somebody can say as I, you know, I trained agents later on in undercover that I told them, look, if somebody becomes suspicious of you, think about this. You can even have surveillance. You can be in a motel room with a bad guy. You can have surveillance in the next room listening to everything that's heard, and a bad guy might turn to you and say, hey, I think you're the heat. Bam. And you're gone. So as I tell agents when I train them, I'm going to teach you how to keep the guy from ever having a suspicion in the first place. That's the key thing right there and the safest way of doing it. But the thing about it is, you know, the times that I worked undercover, it was like being on that high wire, you know, without a net. Without a net, and being out there all alone. And I don't say that in a way that I was a victim doing it. I just say that it's hard for people to understand how all of a sudden you're just by yourself. And if something goes wrong, if you say the wrong thing, if you say something with the wrong emphasis, if you look the wrong way, if you use the wrong kind of body language, all of a sudden, people start looking at you crazy, and things can go bad. So one of the reasons I loved undercover was not only because it was exciting. It was because you had to use every single ounce of your mental ability and your creativity to try to keep people from being suspicious. And at the same time, you had to do your job under legal constraints, under departmental policies, and under moral constraints. So you had these constraints, and you had to do your job under all those. And you had to always. And here's another thing, too. I was thinking about this the other day. One reason I think I was so successful undercover is I could always make myself think like the criminals so that if I'm with you, Mark, and you're a career criminal and you're a safecracker or you're a major drug dealer, I'm thinking the same way you are. And so whenever you and I are talking, I don't have to think what I need to say. I just say it. Because my mindset is the same as yours. But underlying all that is the fact that you're a law enforcement officer and you never have a question about what you can and can't do.
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A
Right. If someone hands you a gun and says, hey, take care of this guy, you all of a sudden have to get a little creative.
- [23:49]
B
Right? Exactly. So you have to use techniques like, you know, when I was infiltrating the Dixie Mafia auto theft rings.
- [23:58]
A
Well, and what is that for anyone?
- [24:00]
B
That Dixie Mafia is a loose network of career criminals, many of them violent career criminals, mostly across the southern states. And they would come together to pull jobs. They would sometimes go in and arm rob a high stakes poker game that other criminals were involved in, you know, wearing ski masks or they'd go in and where they found out somebody had a safe, go in and rob him, or they'd go commit contract murders. A bad bunch. But they're also involved in stolen car rings and in chop shops, especially in northeast Mississippi, which was notorious for that. And these cars would be stolen and chopped up for parts or stolen, sent to all over different parts of the US Anyway to infiltrate them. You know, I'm the new guy showing up. I can't just show up and say, hey, man, I'm. I'm one of y' all too. Yeah, yeah. Where do I sign up? So instead I have to find out, well, you know, who's part of this? Who do they trust? So I find out there's a bail bondsman that they trust who also has a pawn shop. So I show up his pawn shop, get introduced to him, and then I tell him, look, man, we took off a truckload of TVs, whole truckload. And don't worry, it wasn't around here. It's like over in Alabama. So there's no heat on around here. We've already gotten rid of it TVs, but we've got some left. Would you be interested in a brand new TV still in the box for like $30 or whatever? You know, that's back when they cost a lot more. And you guys say, yeah, well, yeah, I guess so. Well, all right, when you want me to bring it by, well, I'll close it, you know, such and such time or more. Bring it right after that. And so then I go to another town, to Walmart, and I buy a tv and I take the markings off to where it can be traced, and I go deliver it to him and get the $30. And then he starts vouching for me, you know, to the. To the career criminals. Well, yeah, yeah, he's involved in this. Or show up and open the trunk and show him. Dozen AR15 rifles. So, yeah, we got these out of an armory. I'm taking them up to a guy to unload them right now. But if you ever want some, I can get you some. Oh, man. So that's kind of thing makes. Makes them vouch for you. But here, here's the thing about it. When I do, when I did those, and I tell this to agents when I'm training them, no one came around and said, charlie, hey, why don't you try this? Or why don't you try that? You've got to think of it. And as I tell law enforcement officer and agent, you've got to think. You got to use your head and you've got to think of it. Because your most powerful tool and fighting crime is your mind. It's your brain. That's your most powerful tool.
- [27:05]
A
And so when you join the force, you're the only real one doing undercover, doing this type of intelligence work. So where do you learn this? Is this something you pick up from your childhood? How do you understand how trust it.
- [27:18]
B
Just ojt own the job. I mean, there's no one to show me. And I had not been to, you know, any type of training school for.
- [27:25]
A
Can you think of a moment when you were younger that you say, like, oh, you need to establish trust, but in order to get trust, you have to find. Find a sort of, you know, an intermediary or a conduit to getting trust.
- [27:36]
B
No, I never thought about it like that. But of course, oftentimes we would have somebody that perhaps somebody had turned and become an informant, would make an introduction and then drop out. If I could get an introduction, then I'd cut the informant completely out and I'd take it from there. And so that. That would help right there. The, the key thing, though, about trust, I think sincerity goes a long way. So if you and I are talking and you're a career criminal involved in certain types of crime, and my mindset is the same thing. When we're talking, I'm sincere because I'm talking to you. As the same kind of career criminal you are.
- [28:17]
A
Right. You're not Charlie.
- [28:19]
B
I don't have to think about what to say. I'm instinctively saying the same thing you are. So are responding to it the correct way. And that sincerity comes across. And oftentimes, too, my personality undercover would often be. It would be more dynamic. Now, you know, in real life, I'm pretty much of a wimp. You know, if I. If I go out to buy a car and. And salesman says, oh, this car is X amount of money, I might say, well, will you take less? No. Okay, all right, I'll pay you them, you know, but. But if I go out, you know, and I'm. I'm undercover and I'm on drugs or stolen cars or whatever, and the guy says, yeah, this would be 2,000 or 10,000, whatever. I'm saying, hey, man, I can't do that. Look, I can do this. Well, no, we argue back and forth, and I say, look, I like to do that, but I've got people backing me, and, you know, I mean, I'm playing hardball like that. So go ahead. I'm sorry, I'm curious.
- [29:21]
A
I want to circle back to the Randy store before we go to the Dixie.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:25]
A
Because Randy is an interesting character.
- [29:26]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [29:28]
A
So he is a part of this sort of career circle of burglars. And they make their whole living just breaking into stores and homes, taking all their stuff.
- [29:36]
B
Right.
- [29:37]
A
When you're assigned to this, I imagine that the case file you get is not very robust. You're basically told, like, hey, there's no.
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B
No, no, no, no.
- [29:45]
A
Like, how does it even come across?
- [29:47]
B
No, no, you're thinking of present day undercover. Of course, undercover. Then was. I'm working undercover, deep cover. And I write intelligence reports, and I write the intelligence reports at my home at night, late at night, and then later on, I'll slip into an office no one knows about and type them. And those intelligence reports are just intelligence reports. They're not. I wasn't supposed to be making cases. I was supposed to be gathering criminal intelligence on who's doing what and how they're doing it. And sometimes they would take that information if they could sanitize it, they would pass it on to the detectives to follow up and see if they could make a case, but do it without burning me. The way. The way an undercover agent gets burned, at least, is when other people that you trust and he trusts knows you're an agent. Especially, you know, we're talking about back in Baton Rouge and in Mississippi if somebody you trusted with the local police department or the sheriff's office or even the highway patrol knew that you were MBN agent, Mississippi Bureau of Narcotics agent, and you were working undercover and they were trustworthy and they knew you were working undercover in a certain area, you'd wind up being burned, and you'd wind up being burned because of the fact that they'll tell a friend who tells a friend who tells a friend. Next thing you know, sat on the street that there's undercover agent working in the area, and, hey, who's the new guy?
- [31:31]
A
Yep.
- [31:32]
B
Yeah, who's the new guy?
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A
Especially when there's so few, you know.
- [31:35]
B
If you're the only one. Yeah. So in Baton Rouge, in Baton Rouge, when I was undercover, gosh, I was undercover for six years in the same city. But after I was in intelligence for a while, it evolved into narcotics and then. So I was making infiltrating drug ranks and making undercover buys. And every now and then there'd be a roundup of drug dealers. Well, the problem is, it's roundup of drug dealers. Man, who busted you? Well, it says, says here on the warrant, officer Charlie Spillers was the one who did. Charlie Spillers. Oh, is that Rick? Is that Rick? That Rick driving that green car? Yeah, that's who he is. They spread the word, hey, look out for Rick driving that green car. Well, that's why sometimes I was working on different groups at the same time, using different names and different cars. So that if I'm working on a group and they say, hey, look out for Rick driving a green car, you know, you know, I'm. I'm John driving a different car, or somebody's telling me to watch out for me. Or sometimes I'm telling others, yeah, watch out for me. Hey, that reminds me. That reminds me. I like this. This didn't come about, but it would have been neat if it had. There was a roundup after roundup. Two of the guys got busted, wanted to put out a contract on me to kill me. And so they got up with two other guys to do it. And these two friends of theirs was going to put out the contract, hire a hitman to kill me. Well, I found out about it through an informant that they had told about it. So I told informant, we'll go to the two guys, they don't know me, and tell them, you know, a hitman, and then you introduce me to them as the hitman to kill me. How does that sound? Well, anyway, that was the plan. It only got so far. And then the bad guy. The guys decided not to pursue it anymore, which I think was good for everybody involved.
- [33:41]
A
Oh, boy.
- [33:42]
B
Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be how you going to hit yourself, commit?
- [33:46]
A
And then you go back to the guys, you're like, hey, I got him good. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, you're not going to see him around anymore.
- [33:51]
B
Yeah. I would have been saying Charles Phil. Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Yeah, he's tall and handsome. Yeah, that handsome, smart guy. Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:58]
A
Oh, that is wild. So how do you come across Randy?
- [34:01]
B
Oh, I was introduced. Let me think. I was introduced to some strippers, and the strippers ran with the career criminals. So they had the bars and the strippers and go go joints and go go girls, and they all ran together in a big group. So when you go into the bar. What's that movie? Good. Goodfellows. You go in a bar, it wouldn't be, you know, on the same level as Goodfellows, but you go into their bar and like in Goodfellas, there'd be one table or two tables over there, and everybody's around maybe a dozen at that table as the guys. And some of the dancers, when they come for their breaks. And it's the career criminals and the girls. So that's how I got into them. And, you know, just that's. That's how it developed. But anyway.
- [34:54]
A
But how does Rick or Mike. How does Mike just walk up to, you know, a bunch of tough guys that are career criminals with a bunch of dancers like, what is your. What is your cover?
- [35:05]
B
Yeah, well, that's my cover. I'm trying to remember what I was. My cover was back then seemed like I was pretending that I was involved in some. Some burglaries, minor things, you know, things that they wouldn't have known, known wasn't true. And because the girls, you know, accepted me, they started accepting me. And then, in fact, the way my career with Randy came to a halt is Randy got up with me and an informant, and he was going to pull a safe job, and he wanted us to go. And I think I was going to go in with him to pull the safe job. It was in a gas station, and it was supposed to have a lot of cash in it. And the gas station was closed at night, and it's isolated and outside the skirts of this small town. We'll go hit it and inform. It would be the lookout. And so we had gloves, we'd gotten. We had the car, we had two. We had everything ready. Randy was going to, you know, blow the safe or peel the safe. And then on the way to do the job, I was driving the car. Nighttime, in a town I wasn't familiar with. And I didn't see the stop sign.
- [36:28]
A
Oh, no.
- [36:29]
B
There were tree limbs over a stop sign. And as I went through this intersection, no cars around, except this van that T boned us.
- [36:37]
A
No.
- [36:37]
B
And so that ended that. Yeah, that totaled the car.
- [36:42]
A
Oh, wow.
- [36:43]
B
The only one who was all right was Randy. Informant was. Had a stiff neck. You got.
- [36:48]
A
You got banged up a little.
- [36:49]
B
Oh, just a little. Not much.
- [36:51]
A
So then what happens with Randy?
- [36:55]
B
He. Well, I had to drop out after that because words started circulating on me. The. The police investigating that, you know, we're investigating the accident. They found some tools and things in the car, you know, and they started becoming suspicious of everything. So finally, when they had all three of us, including the banged up informant, down at the police station late that night, and they were checking things out and making some calls, when I was alone with the police captain, I said, look, I need you to call somebody. You know, my name's not really Mike Thibodeau or whatever it is, and this car is not really such and such. And I need you to call Captain Watson with Baton Rouge PD Intelligence. And so he calls and said, yes, sir. I got. Yeah. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. He's right here. Yeah. Yes, sir. Here he is. You won't talk to him. So anyway, that kept us from all going to jail, but at the same time, just doing that around other people, they might not see what's going on, but they pick up the, hey, something suspicious going on. So the next time or two I went in the bar where we all hung out, I picked up those vibes real fast, you know, that hostility, that something was cold and something was going on. So I left early. I go out to my undercover car, and the back windshield is busted out of my undercover car. So that. That took care of me and me and Randy. I didn't go back after that.
- [38:29]
A
Wow.
- [38:30]
B
Just threw my hill. In fact, I wrote in the book about that. I remember. I remember not really wanting to do that. I didn't really want to test the waters. But I remember at home, I got my.38, Little Smith and Wesson.38, five shot made, pulled out the cylinder, made sure the shells were in it, and held it and held it in my hand. And as I wrote in the book, that it was just a comforting feeling knowing I had it. I was just comforting, calming myself down. And then I put it in the Back of my belt. Then I went to the joint, and then all of a sudden, I saw all this coldness. And before long, I made excuse and got out. And in fact, one of the women said, mike, you. Maybe you better go.
- [39:17]
A
Wow.
- [39:18]
B
So anyway, so that ended the thing with.
- [39:20]
A
Do you know what happened to Randy in the long run? Was there ever a case built around him?
- [39:24]
B
None. No. None that I know of from that back then. Gosh, we could have done so much good back then had we known about conspiracy law and investigating conspiracies and making conspiracy cases. Because I had enough evidence, you know, with Randy, from what I've seen, and I could have made recordings probably, too, to accumulate evidence for some criminal conspiracies, conspiracy to commit, you know, safe jobs and burglaries and things like that. And also, you know, their admissions to other crimes too. In fact, I remember at the bar, I remember one time Randy came in. It was at bar I was telling you about, and it was early afternoon, and I walked in and Randy was there. And as I walked, he was sitting at a table. As I walked up to Randy, I could tell something was wrong. And I immediately thought, oh, am I burned? You know, that's the first thing. Oh, am I burned, boy? I could tell something was wrong. I sat down at the table, and Randy says, damn it. Damn it. Son of a bitch. Can you believe it? I said, what, what? What? He said, believe it, man. They came to my house at 2 in the morning. Damn it. And so and so and so and so they had gone to do a safe job, but they couldn't get the safe open. So finally they got the safe, they pried it out, they put it in the trunk of car. They brought it over to Randy's house at 2 in the morning. They wanted Randy to open it for him. He said, I could have killed him. I could. I can't believe it. I could have killed him. So he said, I finally agreed to open it for half of what was in it, Adam. Take it off somewhere. Didn't take me any time to get it out of there. But he was furious. I mean, he was absolutely furious that they came to his house at 2 in the morning to open a safe. You know, that was just exposing him. I mean. Oh, man. And I was relieved. Thank God it's not me. Yeah, thank goodness.
- [41:24]
A
Especially, you know, with no surveillance, no cover for you. It's stressful.
- [41:29]
B
Yeah.
- [41:29]
A
What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because you need to rebrand your crotch. That's right. You need a full rebrand on your dong, and you're gonna do it with bluechew. Because bluechew, their tablets aren't just for better sex. No, they are. Like if Tony Robbins give a motivational speech rate to your race, your wiener, you know, I mean, you're gonna feel amazing. Look, I just took one of bluechew's tablets today, and suddenly, I mean, look at me, I'm glowing. This table, absolutely getting crushed underneath it, right? My penis is giving a press conference. Okay, Feeling great. Never been better. So whether you're trying to make, you know, a memorable moment with your. Your sweet love, or you're just trying to give, you know, a friend of yours or a girl, you know, like a, you know, some crazy group chat fodder, something for the girls to gossip about, bluechew is absolutely the chewable tablet delivery service that you need to thunder. And the best part is that we got a special deal for the listeners of this lovely program. Get your first month for free@bluechew.com. just use the promo code Gagnon at checkout. All you gotta do is pay five bucks for shipping. That's like a cup of coffee. All right, five bucks for shipping. You're gonna get free bluechew straight to your door. So upgrade your legacy. Let your name ring out for eons. And let's get back to the show. What's up, people? Quick announcement. If you are a fan of Camp Gagnon or religion Camp, I have great news because we are dropping History Camp. That's right. This is the channel. We're going to be exploring the most interesting, fascinating, controversial topics from all time throughout all history. Right. You probably know about Benjamin Franklin. I don't know, Thomas Jefferson, Nikola Tesla. Interesting figures from history and you probably learned about in school, and they were pretty boring, but not here. Now, as you know, I was raised by a conspiracy theorist. So I'm going to be diving deep into all of the interesting, strange, occult, and secretive societal relationships that all of these famous, influential men from our shared past have. So if you're interested, please go ahead and subscribe to the YouTube channel. It will be pinned in the description as well as the comments. And if you're on Spotify, this doesn't really apply to you, but these episodes will be dropping as well. Just go ahead and give us a high rating because it really helps the show. What was the. What was the longest case that you worked on?
- [43:39]
B
Longest? Gosh, I don't know what the longest would be like.
- [43:42]
A
Was there one that you were. You were Working on these guys for, you know, eight months a year.
- [43:46]
B
Yeah, that would be the smuggling case where they delivered 3,000 pounds of marijuana to me in houston, Texas.
- [43:56]
A
So take me to the beginning of that case.
- [43:58]
B
It was. It was air smugglers back in the mid-70s and back in the 80s, the Southern United States especially was overwhelmed with air smuggling by private airplanes, especially twin and twin engine airplanes that would fly down to central America, south America, to the Caribbean, and they would fly back with a full plane load of drugs. Well, in Mississippi, nearly every single county in Mississippi had some connection linked to air smuggling. They were either landing planes there and offloading the drugs, or they were landing planes and getting refueled to fly further north with the drugs, those sort of thing. Every place had a connection, and it was like that across the south. And there were some highly organized groups doing it. Some very highly organized groups. In fact, some. There are some books written about some of them. One of them called the company. Anyway, we had an informant go to one of our agents and say, this was when I was with the Mississippi bureau of narcotics that I think so and so is interested in selling some plane load of drugs. Single engine plane load of drugs. And so I had that informant introduce me to the pilot. And when he introduced me, it was at the door of a motel. And the informant introduced me and immediately sent the informative way. And he was. He got to introduce me. And he was out from then on. And that investigation lasted probably eight or nine months. And so, as it turned out, that pilot was friends with very close friends with another pilot. And the other pilot was working for the Marcelo organization, the mafia organization down new Orleans. And he was one of about a half a dozen or more pilots that were flying drugs from Jamaica, primarily Jamaica at the time. Plane loads of drugs into the u. S. They would be offloaded in Louisiana or mississippi and usually like 15, 1700 pounds at a time. Anyway, I got in with him and.
- [46:18]
A
It was being grown in Jamaica.
- [46:20]
B
Yeah, right, right, I see. And in fact, when I met the other pilot, he. He would, you know, he thought I was a wealthy businessman in Memphis.
- [46:33]
A
That was your cover?
- [46:34]
B
Yeah, I was a wealthy business. I wore a three piece suit. I was a wealthy businessman in Memphis and that I was backed by some other businessmen and some lawyers who invest money, invest money in big drug loads. So what he was going to do is he was going to sell one of those planeloads to me. And he was trying to get the marcelo people to allow him to do that, but they had all their loads promised that were coming up. So, you know, I didn't get to buy one of those loads. But he, when I meet with him various times, and I usually had a tape recorder going with, you know, a couple hours of real, real tape, he would tell me so much about the fields they were using to land and about the ministers in different countries and government officials in different countries who were helping them, you know, part of the operation and what kind of planes they were using. He was telling me so much that we wound up being able to rip off, I think, two plane loads of drugs. One in Belize and another plane load that landed in Franklinton, Louisiana, An Arrow commander with about 1700 pounds. And I kept US Customs and DEA from seizing that. When it landed, he landed it and he offloaded it into these vans and the vans, they followed. The vans and vans went to this warehouse deep in the woods that they had built where they were storing drugs. Meanwhile, after he unloaded, which only took a few minutes, he flew that Aero commander to the coast airstrip on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. And I had him stay away from busting him and seizing that plane because I wanted to maintain my cover with him. So what happened was later that night, late that night, the agents got search warrants for that warehouse. They hit the warehouse, and when they hit the warehouse, there were, I think, £750 left there. They had already moved the rest of it out. But. But what happened was the pilot then after he took the plane to the Gulf coast, they cleaned it out there. He drove back up to North Mississippi where he had a restaurant or he had a restaurant. And then when he met with me after that, he was telling me all about it, and he was saying, yeah, he said. He was telling me about it being seized at the warehouse. And I said, man, we don't have heat on. There's no heat on you, is there? He said, no, no, no. He don't me said, we think what's happened is there was a shrimp boat load full of drugs, about 10 or 20,000 pounds that came in, and they went to the warehouse. And what happened is, we think that was tracked to the warehouse, and when they hit that, and it was already gone by the time they hit it. And so when they hit that and they got what was left of my load. So we don't think there's any heat on me. Don't worry. Don't worry. Well, what happened was, think about it. If you're in the Marcelo organization, you've got a pilot and he's lost two plane loads of drugs. They did what I figured they were going to do. They put him on the back burner for a while and that's when he got back up with me. And he said, hey, look, I've got this other group. They're down on the border, Texas, Mexican border. And if you're interested, I can get you 1500 pounds. I said, what price? He told me, I said, well, look, I can get it at such and such price. I'll take £3,000. So we negotiated, agreed to £3,000 for that amount of money. But the problem is, I was telling him, but I need it delivered to North Mississippi. They wouldn't do that. All right, well, how about if we meet in Shreveport? They delivered to Shreveport and they delivered to me tonight. Wouldn't do that. You've got to go down to the vet, what they call the valley down around McAllen, Texas and all that. The problem with that is that's kind of like enemy territory. If you go down to the border area, that's where they have too much control, they've got too many eyes. They know what's going on. So if you go down there, I mean, you're walking into a trap. So eventually we agreed to do the deal in Houston, Texas, because they have a ranch about 50 miles outside Houston that they use for transshipment point. So I agreed to meet them in Houston, do the deal there. I wrote about that in the book. That was, gosh, I flew to Houston and for about two days or two and a half days and nights, non stop negotiations with them.
- [51:26]
A
Now, do you work, do you have to work with the FBI for something like this?
- [51:29]
B
Dea.
- [51:31]
A
Because Mississippi.
- [51:32]
B
Yeah, he was DEA in. And so anyway, we got up with dea, and of course, DEA was. Boy, they were very enthusiastic about doing something. Big deal. Of course, nowadays, £3,000, not such a big deal. But back then, this is 1980, it's a big deal. So Dea was very enthusiastic about doing it. And so I drive down to Houston and the bad guys that I'm dealing with, they're down at the border and they're flying up to Houston and we're supposed to meet at the airport. And I'm flying in the airport, they're flying in. And then their plan is from the Houston airport, we're going to go to Hobby Airfield and get a helicopter and then they're going to fly me in a helicopter to the ranch. You know, that's about 50 or 60 miles outside of town.
- [52:21]
A
Are you with the liaison for the whole deal as well? Is he going with you?
- [52:26]
B
I'm not sure who was going to be in the helicopter, but he was one of those that I'm dealing with. And. And what happened was some others that were the suppliers. That's right. He dropped out after we got to. I met him at the airport, and they wanted to go get the helicopter and fly me out there. And I had one of my men with me, and I said, you know, take him. And they said, yeah, he can come out there and you can leave him out there with the drugs, and then we come back here and do the money, and then, you know, then you get the drugs and all that. Well, the problem is they would have taken him hostage, basically. If I'd gone out to the ranch, either me or whoever went out there would be hostage for a deal going down. And. And no matter how you try to play it, somebody would have gotten hurt. So DEA was all for that. Oh, go ahead and fly with him. Fly with them. You fly with them. And said, no, no, look, it's just. It's too dangerous on their territory. Oh, they're pushing and pushing. And finally I said, well, look, I tell you what, give me one of your men, and I'll pretend that's one of my men, and I'll have him fly out there.
- [53:48]
A
Have the DA guy go.
- [53:49]
B
Yeah, DEA guy go. He said, okay, we'll do it your way. And you know what? From then on, I mean, he couldn't have been better. Anything I wanted, he did. But that was the only time we. We had any kind of disagreement. And after that, he was great. He was fantastic. At the airport, you know, you need to show a flash row.
- [54:10]
A
What's a flash row?
- [54:12]
B
Money. Show them that you have the money. Flash row.
- [54:15]
A
Because they're landing, you're landing, and they need to see cash before they go off.
- [54:18]
B
Yeah.
- [54:19]
A
So why do they want to do the cash off site?
- [54:23]
B
Well, oftentimes you separate the cash from the drugs and do delivery in one place and exchange the cash and in the other place.
- [54:31]
A
And that gives them protection.
- [54:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the problem is, when you have a lot of money involved, even sometimes when they don't plan to rip you off just by that much money, being involved might make them start thinking about ripping you off. So at the airport, when I met him at the airport, they came off the airplane. I told him, look, I'm ready to do the deal, but I don't want to take the helicopter and said, I'm going to go get a motel room here, and I want to do it this way. And that way. Come on down here. I want to show I've got some money down here. I won't show one of you the money. So I take one of them down. We go to a van. In the van or some other agents in an undercover row, I show him a half a million in cash. Supposed to be 550,000, but it's half a million, which in today's money would be about 2 million, maybe a little more than 2, 2 and a half million.
- [55:25]
A
And that's what the whole deal is worth?
- [55:27]
B
Yeah, the whole deal is worth seeing. I'll show him that money. And then I go to the motel. And then. Then a little bit later, they show up at the motel, the bad guys. And there's about a half a dozen of them. Them. And so they get a room. There's a group. And then I've got my room. And then DEA's got a room. And meanwhile, DEA's amassed their SWAT team. Houston PD is amassed their SWAT team. And altogether we have about 40 or 50 agents in the field a couple miles away, all on standby in case something goes down. And meanwhile, the bad guys want me or my man to go out to the ranch. When they came to, I know this is disjointed. The reason is I hadn't had much sleep lately. But at the motel, what I did was I had an agent go get a U Haul truck, you know, in another name. And then when the bad guy showed up, I said, look, I told y', all, here's what I want. Here's a. Here's the U Haul truck, here's the keys. Go fill it up. I don't even need to go to the ranch. Y' all go fill it up, bring it back here. I've got the money. We'll do the deal. They kept insisting, though, that one of us go out to the ranch. They kept insisting that. So that's where two days of negotiations went on with non stop with hardly any sleep at all. When I'd leave them, I'd have to go get up with DA and others and say, this just happened. That just happened. Oh, they want to see the half a million again. Okay, call him. Y' all send one man down to the lobby. Have him will come out the lobby and we pick him up and ride him around. We go to another car and we show him a half a million again. And then we go back and. I mean, this is just non stop, two days.
- [57:13]
A
And then what's the point of the U haul?
- [57:16]
B
Well, the U Haul makes it simple. See, I tried to simplify it. Look, y' all just fill up the U haul with my £3,000, bring it back here and I'll meet you. You know, I'll get the U haul from you. I've got the money here. You've already seen it. You've seen it twice. No big deal. Makes it simple, right? But they still want somebody to go to the ranch in the U haul with them, that one of their men.
- [57:39]
A
Put the product in one of their.
- [57:40]
B
One of their men, and one of my men will go to the ranch in U haul. So I finally arranged for my man to go to a truck stop with their man in the U haul near the ranch. And they drop off my man and they go on to the ranch in the U haul and my man waits. And then they come back with the U haul filled with the £3,000. And when they did, my man called me at the motel room where I'm with all the bad guys, said, yeah, I've got now everything's okay. Mike, or whatever name I was using. I said, okay, all right, it's all cool. I'll go get your money. Be right back up. I come back up to the room. Instead of coming in with money, we come in and arrest him. Wow. So anyway, that's how that deal went down. I made it disjointed and.
- [58:31]
A
No, not at all. I was trying.
- [58:33]
B
Well, that's because my mind's disjointed from not getting much sleep. Hey, I've got to tell your audience, your man Mark is. Is a slave driver. He did. He. He made, he made me get up at 5 in the morning to catch an airplane to fly to New York to do an interview today. And just as I thought I could get in bed, he called me and said, where are you? So he's a slave driver, but, but he's a great interviewer.
- [58:59]
A
I appreciate it. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to keep you up. What's up, guys? I'm on the road. That's right. I'm going to Burlington, Vermont, Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, and a bunch of other dates that I will be adding to my website. Markagnon live.com. i would love to see you guys there. Obviously, if you don't know, I'm a stand up comedian and stand up comedy is my passion. The thing I love to do, and seeing you guys all come out to the shows truly makes my life. I hang out after the show and say, what's up? To everybody. So if you want to come through, check out the show say what's up to me, it would mean the world. You can see me at all these dates and more on my website, markagnon live.com and I'll see you guys on the road. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because we got merch, if you don't know. We got camp research and development merchandise. You can see it right here. Also, my buddy Andrew Schultz was actually just out hang with his fam, having a good old time. All of a sudden, a dude walks up to me, goes, yo, what's up, Schultze? And guess what? He was wearing this shirt right here. So shout out to that legend, whoever you are. You're the man. I appreciate that. And if you want to cop your very own camp threads, go to camp-rd.com we're dropping all sorts of new gear. You can see some of the images here of some of the products that we got. And anytime you buy a T shirt, you help this show directly operate. It is a huge, huge lift. And I'm very grateful for everyone that reps the gear, especially at the live shows. Seeing you guys wearing the T shirts at the shows truly makes my life. It's the coolest thing ever. I cannot believe people are actually wearing clothes that me and my friends are designing and sending imessage chats like, yo, you think this is cool? It's the craziest thing in the world. And I'm so grateful for everyone that does it. Check it out. We got the link in the description. Now let's get back to the show. So I'm curious, in that case, can you explain a little how the criminal organization works? Right. You have these growers in Jamaica that are growing weed, right? They're growing marijuana. And then you have, you know, in just for example, the Marcelo family that's in New Orleans, right? Are they the ones that are organizing the grow and are they the ones with the power that is making the deal all happen? Are they like contracting the pilots? Like, what is the sort of hierarchy of how these things operate?
- [61:00]
B
Yeah, normally people like the Marcelos weren't getting involved in actual growing. You know, you've got the growers down in Jamaica and in other countries who are producing it, and they're looking to sell their product. And then they have protection from some of the officials and the ministers in government. And then when you get the Marcelo's involved in picking up these big loads, all they're interested in is getting that load and getting it back to us and getting it Distributed. I can't remember if I covered this in a book or not. They lost two or three airplanes. One crashed in Jamaica. At least one more crash, maybe in Florida with dope in the plane or the guys on the way to pick up the dope. So it was pretty risky for the pilots. And what they were, what the Marcellus were doing. They were playing paying the pilots a set fee, as I recall. I think the pilot I was dealing with was telling me they were getting 60,000 per load. Something interesting happened with Marcellus, though, is trying to remember when all this came about. When. When the pilot I was dealing with, his name was Billy Wayne Mahaffey from Mississippi. When he flew up in the Aero Commander with about 1700 pounds, he dropped it off in Louisiana and then he flew over to Diamond Head and they cleaned out the plane. Then he drove back up to North Mississippi. Well, what happened was the Marcelo organization decided that they needed to get another plane, replace that plane, and. Wait, wait, wait. I'm getting my facts confused. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This is from not getting much sleep after the first plane got busted. He was in Belize and it was with this pilot. It was 1500 pounds. The police, the authorities in police arrested the pilot, Mahaffy and his co pilot, and they seized the plane, seized the dope. So Mahaffey's in jail in Belize. This had just happened. But what happened after that? And I know this because Mahaffey eventually got out, came back, met with me and told me all about it. What happened was after the bus happened, right after that, a Lear jet, private Learjet, left New Orleans and flew down to Belize. And people in that Lear jet took money to bribe Mahaffey's way out of jail. I think it was going to be $20,000. So what happened was Mahaffy had a hearing. And in that hearing, he and his co pilot were sentenced to like 90 days in jail or in prison. And the bribe was paid. And instead of serving time, the authorities drove him to the Mexican border, turned them loose, and then they made their way back to the US and that's when my happy got up with me. And while the tape recorder is going, he's telling me all about it. Yeah. And they flew down Learjet. And here's what happened. Independently, customs was watching that Lear jet, and when it landed back in New Orleans, from police, customs identified all eight people on board, including a couple attorneys who. Couple attorneys and a couple other figures who were linked, who linked into this. And they also found $150,000 in cash in an envelope. Nobody on the plane would claim it. So finally, one of the attorneys claimed 150,000. Then I think it was about two weeks or three weeks later, that Arrow commander that Mahaffey later used, two men went to Oklahoma and they bought that used arrow commander for 182,000 in cash. So you see, see where all this is going? And, and the. The money and the people that were linked to the Arrow Commander included two of the men who were on that Lear jet coming back. And either one or two of those men were. Had been previously identified as mafia members down in New Orleans. So you see what happened. All of a sudden they send people down, take care of my Happy, get him out. Then they come back, they've got this money, they want to get a plane and keep on running. That's when they get the Aero Commander half. He takes another trip, but he's telling me too much about when he's leaving. So custom goes out with our people, they put a transponder on it, and when he flies back in, they track him on the transponder, and that's how they know he landed it. I think it was Franklin or Franklin in Louisiana. And they actually saw a. The vans, different vans pick up the drugs and drive off. And then he flew over to Diamond Head. So that's how Happy wound up losing two different planes and put on the back burner.
- [66:16]
A
Wow.
- [66:17]
B
The thing about this is, in one of the interesting things about it was during that investigation, we had state and local agents, officers in Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi and Florida. And we had federal agents too, all cooperating with each other. There wasn't one big task force control room. It was just, look, we're dealing with a guy, you know, and there's going to be a plane coming and they're going to refuel down in Florida. Can you have somebody check and see if that plane's there? Yeah. Well, what about in Louisiana? They're going to do that too. Yeah, we'll rush out and do that. Customs. This is going to happen. Can you put a transponder? Yeah, we'll do that. So it wasn't, you know, like one big central control. Is everybody jumping in to get things done, Which I thought. Thought was pretty amazing.
- [67:10]
A
Yeah, Especially nowadays it seems like there's much more organization when it comes to all these different things.
- [67:15]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. Now. Yeah, now you'd have. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So anyway, that's how that.
- [67:21]
A
That deal and now this Marcelo organization. I've never heard of them.
- [67:24]
B
Them. Really?
- [67:25]
A
No, I've never. I've never heard of them.
- [67:27]
B
You must be from New York. You must be from New York.
- [67:33]
A
Are they. Are they still operating in New Orleans?
- [67:36]
B
Hey, Mark. I went. I had not eaten since yesterday or slept. Like I say, he's a slave driver. So after I finally got to my room today, I went and found a pizza place and I went in, I got a slice of pizza, you know, first time eating and since yesterday. And I'm sitting there eating the pizza and these red and white checkered tablecloths, and it's this certain atmosphere. And I'm thinking, hey, is one of the Coralones going to come in here with a gun and make a hit on me?
- [68:06]
A
I've heard of them. I've heard of Corleone.
- [68:08]
B
Never. The Marcelos are notorious in Louisiana.
- [68:12]
A
Okay.
- [68:14]
B
Carlos Marcelo and his mafia family controlled Louisiana and everything that went on Louisiana. And they controlled politicians. And at one point, the Marcelo family and the Traffic Canoe family, they were.
- [68:29]
A
Out of Florida, so I've heard the traffic.
- [68:31]
B
Yeah. As I understand it, they came to an agreement to share the Mississippi Gulf coast between them, you know, rather than fight over. So, yeah, boy, talk about powerful. Super powerful. But that's not surprising. Yeah.
- [68:45]
A
So they controlled. I mean, the fact that they had attorneys and really high powered people on these Learjets going down to, you know, Belize is pretty remarkable.
- [68:54]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [68:54]
A
And how long did they operate for?
- [68:56]
B
Oh, gosh, I don't know. I'd have to. I have to look through the history books.
- [69:00]
A
But I mean, do they still have a presence today? I can't. I can't imagine it's the same as it was.
- [69:05]
B
You know, I. I don't know the answer to that.
- [69:08]
A
That's fair.
- [69:09]
B
I don't know the answer to that. But, you know, Marcelo, he came up in the, what, 20s and 30s, and they finally made a case on him where he assaulted, when he got off a plane, he assaulted a FBI agent or something. So they deport him out of the country, and then later he came back into the country legally, and of course, he's passed away since then. But they control judges, state politicians. In fact, in the case I'm telling you about, about the Lear jet and all that, when they, when the officers hit that warehouse deep in the woods in Louisiana, arrested, I think about eight guys. Eight, Eight. Eight of the bad guys. And one of the bad guys was the grown son, like, you know, I guess late 20s or 30s, the grown son of the state insurance commissioner. The state insurance commissioner was married to one of Marcelo's capos. And later, later, trying to remember what happened? There were some, there were some different things that happened in that. Oh, I know what. Later, either the state insurance commissioner, she was busted or one of her associates was busted. They were trying to bribe the district attorney to drop the case against the son, you know, of her and the capo.
- [70:47]
A
Right.
- [70:48]
B
And instead the DA was honest and made the case on whoever was trying that. Then the son became a fugitive. He didn't show up for trial. And years later, years later he was captured in England. And he had opened a bar in England and had been operating under the name of a name John Wayne used in one of his movies. He'd been operating under that name and he was found out when he applied to get a legal permit for a shotgun. And I guess through his fingerprints or whatever, they found out who he was and arrested him and extradited him back to us. In fact, I think I mentioned in the book there was a newspaper article in the US that probably wins the headline or wins the prize for best headline. It was grogs. You know, you get grogs at the pub. Grogs, father arrested him. Anyway, there were a lot of tentacles in that case. It, it gets confused in trying to remember who's on first.
- [71:50]
A
No, of course. Now the pilot you were working with, that was the guy you were dealing with for the longest time, right. And what was his name again?
- [71:57]
B
That's Billy Wayne Mahaffit.
- [71:59]
A
That's Mahaffey.
- [72:00]
B
He, he, he had. Whenever I was dealing with the, the bad guys in Houston, Billy was there like at the airport. But after that he dropped out. And the reason he dropped out is he started getting suspicious and so he disappeared and dropped out. And the reason he dropped out. Right, the reason he got suspicious is when I went down to Houston instead of flying down, like we were telling the bad guys, instead, myself and one of my agents drove down and it was about a 12 hour drive and we drove down after having very little sleep like today, and, and when we got down there to the airport and we met Billy Wayne at the airport and two or two or three of the other guys, you know, I was wearing my three piece suit and everything, but I was so tired, I wasn't my usual self. And because of that he was kind of picking up that maybe he was thinking something was wrong because, because of that. So anyway, he dropped out. Then later on, I think trying to remember what happened, I can't remember if he pled guilty to charges. I remember going to an administrative hearing in Shreveport, Louisiana where they were had revoked his pilot's License. And it seems like later on, I might have heard from his son. Mahaffey may have passed away by now, but.
- [73:33]
A
But anyway, was there a moment where you revealed to him that you were actually an undercover?
- [73:41]
B
Well, indirectly, because, see, after. I didn't see him after that first night on the deal in Texas, then on that third night is when we arrested everybody. And of course, when we arrested everybody, everybody knows, hey, I'm not Mike. I'm Charlie Spillers. So he knows that, too, instantly. Later on. Later on, he met with us in Oxford, Mississippi, and he was contemplating telling everything he knew. And he gave us a few little tidbits about things he knew, like, you know, somebody tipping them off about transponders being on a plane by customs, things like that. So we had a meeting with him about him possibly cooperating, but then after that, he never followed through. I never heard from him after that.
- [74:39]
A
When you met with him, was there a feeling that he was betrayed by you, or was he kind of like he recognized the game and he goes.
- [74:46]
B
Ah, yeah, you got me. Yeah, it's professional, interesting.
- [74:50]
A
Honor amongst thieves.
- [74:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, there's a guy, his name is Billy. I forget his last name. His career criminal in northeast Mississippi. He had been in the pen a number of times. And I remember when I was with nbn, I was the NBN captain. I was over there in Tupelo one night, and I think he'd gotten caught with a bunch of stolen goods, maybe a stolen car. And I was over there just assisting, and I was booking him, and I was talking with him. I said, well, are you going to? I said, how you been? He said, oh, I've been fine. I said, everything going to be all right? He said, charlie. He said, charlie, man, things have changed. He said, they ain't like they used to be. And I said, what? He said, man, you know, in prison, man, you know, when we were doing time, we all stuck together. He said, but now TV ruined it. I said, what? He said, TV ruined. He said, now they've got tv, a TV room in prison. He said, you know, an inmate, he'll sell his soul to get TV privileges, man. You can't trust any. I mean, it's ruined. He was being serious. He wasn't being funny. He's roaring. He said, damn, it's ruin. It's not like it was in the old days.
- [76:05]
A
Oh, back in the old days, it was cards, you know, guys playing spades the way it's supposed to be.
- [76:09]
B
Oh, man, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. That's so true. So, you know, when you're dealing with the career criminals, they know that, you know, it's professional. Hey, this time you got me. And. And, yeah, you did a good job getting me. Well, you know, good luck to you, because you ain't gonna get me next time, you know, that sort of thing.
- [76:27]
A
I'm always so curious with undercovers that you build these relationships with so many different people, and the relationships are, like you said, genuine. And they're. And they're sincere, and they're deep. And I'm sure, you know, they tell you about their kids, and they tell you about their wives, and, you know, they share intimate details about their life. And you, in turn, you know, you share details about your cover, which I imagine many details of the COVID are probably related to your real life. So you guys are forming this actual intimate bond, right? Is there ever.
- [76:55]
B
I wouldn't say an intimate bond. Criminal bond.
- [76:58]
A
So I'm curious. This is the part that I'm interested in. Like, you're building a case over nine months. Is there ever a moment while you're building the case that you go, man, this is. You know, this guy's actually a good guy, and he's gotten into some bad stuff, and he's doing the wrong thing. He's a criminal, of course, but, you know, I like him, and I feel for him. How do you deal with that?
- [77:18]
B
I wrote in. I think in the book Confessions of an Undercover Agent, and I wrote in the epilogue of that, if you want to really read the gist of that, read the epilogues, maybe three or four pages. Read that, read that. I believe in the epilogue, I pointed out that there are bad people who do bad things, and there are good people who do bad things. And that when I was a. Later, when I was a federal prosecutor, when I could, I would try to keep. Treat them differently when I could. But, yeah, there's a lot of good people who are committing crimes and doing bad things, but they're still doing the bad things. And if you're. If you're a prosecutor, and, of course, if you're a judge, too, and you recognize that, you try to treat them differently, because those are the people that can probably be rehabilitated. They're the folks who appear before the judge and are sincerely sorry when they say they are, whereas, you know, the others, you know, it's just a game just to do that. But, yeah, yeah, I've liked a lot of people I've dealt with. They had good personalities. In fact, criminals, criminal leaders, often have charisma they're often likable. And see, TV gives us this image of this crazy, obnoxious guy in a dark alley. You know, that, oh my God, he's so evil, you don't want to be around him. Well, some of the biggest criminals I've ever dealt with, whether it be drugs, stolen car rings, white collar criminals, or some really personable people, people you like being around, and there are people that you know, their friends who know him said, no, no, I'll be a character witness. He's a nice guy. He couldn't do that. He's a nice guy. Well, the problem is people who are nice guys and sometimes nice women do sometimes commit major crimes. Major crimes where maybe it's something like medical health care fraud, where they're defrauding people of millions of dollars and they're a nice guy and they go to church and everybody loves them, but they're committing this terrible crime. So, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of good people out there doing bad things.
- [79:50]
A
Could you tell me an example of a criminal that you had to sort of work on and work with, that you sort of formed a relationship that you were like, I like this guy.
- [80:02]
B
I'd have to think about that. I can't think of anyone offhand. I like most of the people I dealt with. I like people. I like people. Same word. You. You're a comedian. You can't be a comedian and be good at it if you don't like people. That's right. Isn't that right?
- [80:19]
A
I agree.
- [80:20]
B
And your audience would agree with that. Everybody would agree. You've got to like people. I like people. And that comes across. I've liked a lot of people I've worked on and I mean, I liked him and I felt sorry for him, but it wouldn't change the way I operated or treat them or whatever. And later on, when I could, if somebody was deserving, I'd try to help them when I could with the prosecution or whatever charges, whatever. But, yeah, I like folks.
- [80:49]
A
Did you ever keep in touch with anyone after they got busted?
- [80:54]
B
Ah, I'm trying to think. Yeah, yeah. One of. One of the. Gosh. Dean Hill, he was head of one of those DC Mafia car rings in northeast Mississippi. Big bruiser of a guy, big bully guy. And one of the first times I dealt with him, he drove me around and I've got the recorder going. He said, you see that car? He said, I've got eight people that work for me. I've been doing this more than five years. You tell me what you want. You see that car? It'll be gone. I put it wherever you want. You do. You know, we drive around. He's saying this and that. Anyway, later on. Later on, you know, he gets busted out when we bust out the people who were involved in the stolen car. Wrangler, who. And some of those people tried to harm these two women who had helped us, too. And thank goodness the women weren't hurt badly, but they tried to harm them. Dean Hill went to prison. Dean Hill went to prison over stolen cars. And while he was in prison, I became a federal prosecutor. And while I was a federal prosecutor, his case came up. And I said, dean Hill, what's this case on? They said, well, he got released from prison. You know, he's on parole, but he's got. They. He had a gun on him, which is violation of pro. Yeah, one night he was in a nightclub, and he stuck a gun in somebody's mouth and threatened to kill him. So now, you know, we're going to revoke him and we're charging with being a, you know, convicted felon with a firearm. And another prosecutor was trying the case, and he had me go with him to try the case. And so here's Dean Hill, who had sold me stolen cars. And then he walks into court, and I'm sitting there as a federal prosecutor prosecute him on a different crime. I think he wound up pleading guilty, and we didn't have to go to trial on that. Well, jump ahead. And years later, Dean Hill got out of prison. When he got out next, he went into methamphetamine and went into it big time. And I think he's the one that had a picture of a bed full of cash and guns and a little baby on the bed. Anyway, he got busted on that. Another prosecutor was handling the case. And I went and stood in for the prosecutor, for the citizen on Dean Hill. And when I walked in, Hill saw me and said, charlie. Charlie, man, I'm so glad to see you. How you doing? I'm doing fine. He's good. He said, look, man, on this, you know, my lawyer told me to go ahead and. And do this plea. Guilty and everything. He said, you think it's all right? If you think so, I'll do it. I said, look, I can't. I can't give you advice like that.
- [83:51]
A
The conflict of interest.
- [83:52]
B
I can't give you advice like that. But. So anyway, he goes in. He. He's pleading guilty, and he's pleading guilty, and the judge is asking him questions. Do you understand? This. Do you understand that? Then the judge asked me questions. Has he been told this and been told that? And at some point, I say on the record said, judge, myself and Mr. Hill go way back with his crimes. And he and I were just talking in there. It's time for him and me to both retire. And both of us did. Not long after that.
- [84:25]
A
Wow.
- [84:26]
B
But, yeah, every now and then I'll run into, you know, somebody body that I made a case on.
- [84:31]
A
Oh, fascinating.
- [84:32]
B
Yeah. Well, what was bad is when you run into them and you're still undercover, you know, and you I wrote about in the book, and you're out with your wife, you know, to go to a movie, and all of a sudden, as you're walking toward the movie theater, you're saying, keep walking. Keep walking to your veer all four. Or you're somewhere and something happens. Anyway, I'm sorry. I'm. I've run my mouth here now, Mark, this is what you get for dragging me in here. Sleepy.
- [84:58]
A
I know.
- [84:59]
B
Sleepy.
- [84:59]
A
I know. Charlie. I know.
- [85:00]
B
Shame on you.
- [85:01]
A
This is my fault.
- [85:02]
B
Shame on you.
- [85:03]
A
Shame. Shame has been felt. I. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it.
- [85:08]
B
Good. Super. And can I go sleep now?
- [85:10]
A
I think you should go to sleep. And then tomorrow, if you have some energy, I would love to. I would love to maybe do a part two.
- [85:15]
B
All right, well, check with me, and I might crawl on hands and knees down. Check with me. Okay.
- [85:20]
A
Don't worry, I'm going to pull you out of there. Thank you so much.
- [85:23]
B
All right. Thank you. I appreciate it.
- [85:24]
A
Of course, brother. Thank you.