Loading summary
Transcript367 lines
- [00:00]
Host
Take us all the way back to 4 BC. What does the Roman Empire look like at that point? What is this little place? Judea? What is about to happen?
- [00:08]
Dr. Andrade
He had some sort of relationship with John the Baptist. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. During tax season, your personal info travels.
- [00:17]
Host
To a lot of places between payroll.
- [00:19]
Dr. Andrade
Your tax consultant and the IRS. If your W2 gets exposed, that's just the ticket for identity thieves. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or you're much money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [00:42]
Host
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians.
- [00:51]
Dr. Andrade
These are things people say about drivers.
- [00:53]
Host
Who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [01:09]
Dr. Andrade
Wild guy, right? Charismatic. Very influential, you know, very holy. Right. And had a lot of respect. But at a certain point he starts his own movement and he has his own core following in Galilee, which is governed by the son of King Herod, her Antipas. He's responsible for having John the Baptist killed.
- [01:28]
Host
But then once Christ enters into Jerusalem, now he's entering into the jurisdiction of this prefect, Pontius Pilate.
- [01:34]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [01:34]
Host
So he's arrested, taken to the house of the high priest. What exactly are they assessing at that inquisition?
- [01:40]
Dr. Andrade
He sees himself as a messianic figure and that the day of judgment's near and by implication it's not going to work out. Well, I think at this point the charge is basically sedition. Right. And part of the accusation is that when Jesus is doing this stuff at the temple, he's claiming to be some sort of regal figure. Right. You know, he's a king.
- [01:59]
Host
Capital punishment. Why is that? I guess the punishment.
- [02:03]
Dr. Andrade
Why crucifixion? Because that is serious.
- [02:06]
Host
Why not banishment or long term imprisonment?
- [02:09]
Dr. Andrade
Pilate was convicting him of something more serious, maybe even some sort of seditionist behavior, however defined. And that explains the punishment and the publicity of the punishment.
- [02:18]
Host
So where is the actual site of Christ's crucifixion?
- [02:21]
Dr. Andrade
Its exact location in like Jerusalem, I think, has been debated in part because.
- [02:32]
Host
Nate. How are you, sir?
- [02:33]
Dr. Andrade
I'm doing well. How are you?
- [02:35]
Host
I'm doing excellent. Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it. I know you, you trekked a long way in the snow to have a very interesting conversation. You have a book that's coming out that basically details the trial of Jesus Christ killing the Messiah. I'm very excited to get into it. So tell me, take us all the way back to 4 B.C. all right. What does the Roman Empire look like at that point? What is this little place, Judea? And what is about to happen to this, you know, this little place of Nazareth and later Jerusalem. So tell me, tell me, where do we start?
- [03:11]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, so for starting around 4 BCE and I don't know whether we can pull up a map, but Christos, if you want to give it a try, let's do it. Yeah. First century Judea, something like that. But essentially what's happened is that a few decades earlier the Romans have showed up. And what they typically do when they show up is they make a decision about what places they have conquered or intervened in, whether they're going to be part of a province or whether they're basically going to make an alliance with some local dynast and promote them as a king. So by 4 BCE, that's essentially what has happened. There's been a king ruling over Judea, that part of the world, for many, many decades. Very powerful. Also in many ways, very controversial. That's, of course, Herod the first, who's very, you know, I won't say commemorated, but he was infamous, right, for chasing after the baby Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew. And he doesn't really come from a traditional priestly line or anything like that. There had been chief priests that there when the Romans arrived, but his father had been a very successful member of the court of the Hasmonean chief priest, who were the people on site when the Romans showed up. And because he's very effective politically, he gets a lot of support from the Romans and they think of him as sort of the Roman governor of Judea, and they give him a royal title. And it's basically his job to maintain that area in his interest, but also to make sure that the Romans interests are accommodated.
- [04:50]
Host
So he's there pre Roman occupation.
- [04:53]
Dr. Andrade
He's actually there after Roman occupation. So we typically would date Roman occupation to the 60s BCE you know, the famous Pompey who ends up getting killed by Julius Caesar, basically. So Pompeius Magnus, the person that fights a civil war with Caesar in the 40s, he's this serious general in the 60s, and he leads this massive expedition, which actually is the reason why a lot of the Middle east ends up under Roman control. And Judea happens to be One of those places, and he creates a province called Syria, and south of it is Judea. And that, he decides, should have, basically priest kings who are already there.
- [05:35]
Host
So we got a map here.
- [05:37]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [05:38]
Host
So this is Judea in 1st century BC you say BC I always just say BC I know you're an academic. You have to say that. Okay. But look, we're talking about Christ, okay? It's before Christ. Christ. All right? This whole Common Era stuff, we know, we're really talking about. You know what I mean?
- [05:53]
Dr. Andrade
But I'm happy to go with either.
- [05:54]
Host
As you wish.
- [05:55]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [05:56]
Host
Okay, so this is what's going on. You have Herod, who is brought up sort of as a. He's ethnically, I guess, Judean. Like, he's of the people of this land. He's not Roman.
- [06:08]
Dr. Andrade
Right. He's Idumayan and. Yeah, Judean.
- [06:10]
Host
Okay.
- [06:10]
Dr. Andrade
I mean, in terms of his ancestry. Yeah.
- [06:12]
Host
And so he's sort of brought up to be a king through this sort of dynasty.
- [06:17]
Dr. Andrade
He sort of displaces that dynasty. But his father was sort of like a main henchman of this dynasty of priest kings, the Hasmoneans. And so that's sort of why his reign, in part, is so controversial, because legitimacy is a real problem. He traditionally isn't a member of, like, you know, the clans or families that would have taken care of the temple at Jerusalem. His detractors can sometimes even critique how Jewish he really is, Right. Based on his ancestry being partly Edomite or Idumayan. And so when he consolidates power, he sort of has this problem, right. How do I manage? Right. This priestly lineage that I don't really belong to. And he does it in part by intermarrying with it, but also in part by deposing priests and in some cases, killing them or having them executed. And he appoints people, often from the Jewish Diaspora that presumably he thinks are more manageable to him. Right.
- [07:20]
Host
Was he well liked amongst his constituency? The Scotland Yard detective's hand trembled as he opened the letter. Dear Boss, it began on this day in 1888. Jack the Ripper's most infamous message arrived, taunting police with details that only the true killer could know. But what the letter revealed about the Ripper's true identity would remain hidden for decades. Now let's travel across The Atlantic, where 115 settlers vanished without a trace. The lost colony of Roanoke. Abandoned homes, untouched plates of food, and a single word carved into a tree. Croatoan. To this day, it remains America's oldest unsolved mystery. These aren't ghost stories. They're real historical events from Today in History, the newsletter that delivers history's most gripping mysteries straight to your inbox. From unsolved crimes to unexplained disappearances, from ancient enigmas to modern conspiracies. Ready to unlock history's greatest secrets? Scan the QR code now or click the link in the description to sign up for Today in History.
- [08:24]
Dr. Andrade
I would say he's probably liked by some, but, you know, hotly contested by others in terms of, you know, the narratives that we have about how he's remembered. Right. And so by the time we get to the first century AD or ce, what has happened is that there are people that are critical of the fact that Romans are in the area, that there's this, you know, dynasty of, you know, well, in Herod's case, a king, but his kids don't typically have that title. There's this dynasty that's been working with the Romans and it's governing on a basis that seems to be very much about the relationship of the Roman Empire and their own capacity for violence. And so there are people that are critical because Herod does intervene heavily at the temple. Right. He really expands it, he enlarges it, he makes it very massive. But he's also intervening in things like priestly succession.
- [09:16]
Host
And he's also still very much under the tutelage of the Roman Empire. He's still very much working closely with those rulers to do their bidding as well.
- [09:25]
Dr. Andrade
Yes, he has a great relationship with pretty much everyone who's governing Rome when he's alive. And at least in the early part of his career, that's actually quite a few people because there's a lot of civil wars and factionalism. He's very successful in that regard and politically that stabilizes his rule. But it also is not something that all of his subjects necessarily like.
- [09:49]
Host
I see. And he's referenced in the Gospels because as Jesus of Nazareth is born, he, according to the gospel records, he's basically trying to quell the birth of the Messiah. Is that fair to say?
- [10:02]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, precisely. That's how the Gospel of Matthew reports it. He doesn't like that there's someone else who apparently is more kingly than him. Right. And he sees that as a threat.
- [10:13]
Host
Now, does that account exist in non gospel records that he's aware that there's this bubbling of a, of a messiah or a new king that's born, or is that strictly known in the Gospels?
- [10:24]
Dr. Andrade
I would say the Gospel of Matthew is the earliest to report it there are other apocryphal gospels that expand on that aspect and I think that there's actually recently a movie about Mary actually that, you know, refers to one of those other gospels quite a lot for talking about other source material, like Josephus for example, who is basically our main source for what we know about Herod. He doesn't mention that at all, although he does talk about how at various points this message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place with Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk free@greenlight.com Spotify. Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly. And with award winning antivirus, you get top tier hacker protection. Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage, all for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply. Particularly after Herod's death, when things get shaken up a bit, there are other people that, you know, seem to be making messianic claims.
- [12:06]
Host
I see.
- [12:07]
Dr. Andrade
Or have an alternative vision for what it means to be king over Judea than what, you know, the Herodian dynasty represents. Okay, yeah.
- [12:15]
Host
So now Christ is born and there's, I guess, some type of murmuring within the land of Judea that there is a, you know, a messianic figure that exists. And as Christ is growing up, I know according to the Gospels, there's a little bit of a gap from what we know of him. I think there's early writings of him, maybe as young as seven or eight, and then there's a little bit of an unknown period. Some speculate that he's gone off to schools and learned under different rabbis and things like that. I'm curious, based off your scholarship, do you have any ideas to what Christ was doing kind of in that middle realm?
- [12:49]
Dr. Andrade
I mean, honestly, I don't. His early life is so complicated because, you know, technically the gospels say different things, right? You know, the Gospel of Luke's chronology seemed to suggest that Jesus is born After Herod dies. Right. Which makes it very hard to tell which to, you know, buy into the most. The Gospel of Mark, which for me and for many scholars is probably the most historical of all the gospels. It doesn't really talk about Jesus's early life. Right. Jesus's around 30 when that gospel begins. He's interacting with John the Baptist. It doesn't seem to have much of an interest in talking about that stage of Jesus's life. And so when I was writing the book, I just. I think I reconciled with not knowing. I'm really having no idea.
- [13:41]
Host
Yeah, that makes sense. If you had to speculate based off of what you know about Judea at that time. You know, hypothetically, broadly speaking, if you are the son of a carpenter and you're living in this area, what would life have been like, you know, for the average person?
- [13:56]
Dr. Andrade
Right. Well, there would have been a lot of poverty. And whenever Jesus is born, it's certainly the case that when he's growing up, right, he's living in Galilee, which is governed by the son of King Herod, Herod Antipas. And it's around that time that the Judea proper, right, not Greater Judea, which includes a lot of these other places like Galilee and Samaria, but the district around Jerusalem that's now being controlled by an equestrian prefect. So that Roman Herodian presence is very much there. Herodontopos is starting to engage in various building projects and, you know, enlarge in palace sites for himself in Galilee. That might create employment, but it also might draw people away from traditional households, you know, to various cities and things like that. Otherwise there probably is a lot of poverty because there always seems to be in the ancient world. And there's a lot of debates about how impoverished Galilee would be relative other places in antiquity. And it's. It's hard to make comparisons based on the information at our disposal. But typically in the ancient world, you know, there's a government, and that government consists of landed elites that's working for other landed elites. And those landed elites benefit from the labor of other people who might own small plots of land but are struggling to support themselves or who might have no land and no steady work. And so they, you know, they help harvest, but maybe they're not making a lot of money.
- [15:27]
Host
They go to Egypt at one point, according to the Gospels, the Holy Family, Jesus, Joseph and Mary. Do you know at what point in the chronology that that happens?
- [15:39]
Dr. Andrade
If I recall correctly, it's something mentioned by the Gospel of Matthew, in part to escape from Herod Right. While he's, you know, engaging in what Matthew purports to be. Right. This bloodbath.
- [15:52]
Host
It's infanticide.
- [15:53]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, yeah. So if you're, you know, if we're following Matthew here, pretty early childhood, it doesn't appear in other gospels, so it's really hard to tell.
- [16:05]
Host
Right.
- [16:05]
Dr. Andrade
And the way that people approach the Gospels is they have to make a decision about whether they harm, harmonize them or not. And that was actually a big decision I had to make when working on the trial in particular. So if Matthew's accurate in reporting that shift, it would have been happening when Jesus was infant toddler, I would say.
- [16:24]
Host
I see.
- [16:25]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [16:25]
Host
Okay. So now we have this gap. It's sort of unknown exactly what happens, but then Christ comes back online, late 20s, early 30s, as a teacher, a rabbi in this land, and is sort of gathering these followers, specifically these apostles. Could you just kind of take us through a little bit of the chronology of, like, his early teaching and ultimately what is happening with the governmental structure that ultimately leads to his arrest?
- [16:50]
Dr. Andrade
Okay. Well, in terms of his early teaching, the gospel seemed to be in agreement, right. That he had some sort of relationship with John the Baptist. A wild guy, this guy, John the Baptist, Right. Charismatic, very influential, you know, very holy. Right. And had a lot of respect. And in fact, you know, he's someone that actually gets targeted by Herod onto pause. Right. And that's something that the synoptic gospel tradition talks about. He's responsible for having John the Baptist killed. So at some point, right. In his 20s, let's say, right. Jesus may be interacting with the following of John the Baptist in a way that, you know, people have reconstructed variously. But at a certain point, he starts his own movement. Right. And he has his own core following in Galilee, whereas John the Baptist is concentrated farther south, Right. The district of Judea, as well as Transjordan. And at a certain point, Jesus movement seems to be thinking of him as a messianic figure as opposed to, say, John the Baptist, who. Whose father is maybe thinking the same thing. And the Gospels say nice things about John the Baptist and treat him as a holy person, but of course, synthesizing that Jesus is the. The true messianic figure and that even John sort of acknowledges this. So he's starting to put together that core following in Galilee, and it's governed by Antipas. And from there, people debate to what degree Ontipos is concerned with someone like Jesus.
- [18:24]
Host
And who is Antipas?
- [18:25]
Dr. Andrade
Herod onto pause. The Son. The son of Herod the First.
- [18:28]
Host
Okay.
- [18:29]
Dr. Andrade
So he has Galilee, he's part of this dynasty. He's Jewish, but he's also what the Romans would think of as their governor in Galilee. And it's his job to make sure that there's peace and stability. And he's also someone who's engaging in these big building projects. And he, you know, is supporting landowners where he's governing. And what Jesus is preaching according to the Gospels, and that most people accept is, you know, some sort of message that involves people parting way with their wealth or parting ways with their wealth. Right. And so as his message seems to have a relationship with wealth that you wouldn't associate with the Herodian dynasty or landowners, Right. That they, um, have propped up and things like that. And he's also apparently preaching some sort of day of judgment, right. In which there's going to be a reign of God that restores governance to people who deserve it. And by implication, that's not going to be Herod onto Pause. Right. And so that's why his message can be something that concerns figures of authority, whether they're Herodian or closer to Jerusalem, where we now have Roman prefects. Right. Roman prefects. So that's like the early movement. It seems to be concentrated on Galilee. Right. Where Jesus is from, naturally. It seems to be a message for the poor there. Right. Who in various ways are not benefiting necessarily from the social economic situation. It's a message that can be certainly deemed hostile to wealthy people, particularly if they're not. If they're doing things that are exploitative of the poor. And the message is, of course, ideally, wealthy people part with their wealth. Right. They have a different relationship with wealth than rich people do.
- [20:25]
Host
Right. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven, I think, as it's said in the Gospel. So I can see how you have these messages that are sort of contrary to the power structure of the wealthy people of the time and probably very empowering to the impoverished. Right. Like, oh, this guy understands he's speaking for us. I can see how that message is very palatable, especially depending on your faith tradition. If he's performing these miracles, all of a sudden, I think to the people around, they would say, oh, this is certainly the Messiah, and what he's saying is true. So I can see how he builds this devout following very, very quickly.
- [21:04]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. And he has that reputation for miracles, even though he seems to come from a humbler background than a lot of people that have, like, say, Scribal training or have reputations for being interpreters of the, say, the Hebrew Bible. He builds that reputation. Right. He's competitive in that environment. People trust his interpretations more than others. Certainly that's what the gospels, that's what they're portraying. And yeah, that message does resonate, and it probably would have resonated in a lot of places and in the ancient world, but it certainly seems to be resonating in greater Judea. Right.
- [21:38]
Host
So now the prefects of the area are aware of this guy Jesus. He's building this following, he's performing miracles. Does this get all the way back to the power structure in Rome? Like, are they aware of what he's doing or is it still sort of isolated to Galilee in these early days?
- [21:53]
Dr. Andrade
It's hard to tell. If I had to guess, I would say it's largely isolated to Galilee. In greater Judea, a prefect that Pilate might basically be aware. But what's intriguing about the gospels, they seem to depict a sort of, for lack of a better word, jurisdiction. Right. When Jesus is doing this stuff in Galilee, he's largely Herod Antipas problem. But if he goes to, say Jerusalem and starts doing it at the temple. Right. It becomes more of a problem of say, Pontius Pilate. Right. A prefect also, you know, the chief priest at the temple. And the degree to which they're sharing information and coordinating is sometimes hard to tell because although they're supposed to be doing that to, you know, curb threats. Right. To the ruling structure and so forth, they also are technically competitors.
- [22:43]
Host
Oh, interesting.
- [22:44]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [22:44]
Host
So, yeah, can you explain. So I understand how Herod's son, what was his name again?
- [22:49]
Dr. Andrade
Antipas.
- [22:50]
Host
Antipas. I can understand how Antipas and Croesus. Would you mind pulling the map up again? I think it's actually helpful to kind of get an idea. So Antipas is specifically sort of ruling over Galilee and some of the other areas surrounding that.
- [23:01]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [23:01]
Host
And where's Galilee here?
- [23:04]
Dr. Andrade
It's actually even farther north than that map.
- [23:06]
Host
I see. Okay.
- [23:07]
Dr. Andrade
He rules Perea. Right. That's actually where John the Baptist is arrested. And then farther north, there's Galilee. So he actually has these two almost non adjacent areas.
- [23:17]
Host
I see. So then once Christ enters into Jerusalem, now he's sort of entering into the jurisdiction of this prefect, Pontius Pilate.
- [23:25]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [23:25]
Host
Now can you just tell us a little bit about Pontius Pilate? How does he become the prefect of this area? He's Roman, I'm assuming. But what can you tell us about him at this point?
- [23:35]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, well, the Intriguing thing is that both are Herodians. Oh, nice. Yeah, I see.
- [23:42]
Host
Okay, this makes more sense here. Okay.
- [23:44]
Dr. Andrade
Both the Herodians and like Pontius Pilate, technically have Roman citizenship. And that's sort of how the Roman Empire sort of works. A lot of people not from Italy, especially if they're helping with governance, increasingly they have Roman juridical status. So in that sense, what's intriguing is that Antipas and Pontius Pilate have many of the same responsibilities and sort of the same. A similar legal status in the Roman Empire. But the difference is that Pontius Pilate is a Roman from Italy. Right. And the way that the Roman Empire works at this time is that typically the emperor is making a decision, ideally in conversation with the Senate. Although we're now no longer in the Republic as we traditionally define it. The emperor has to make a decision about who's going to represent Roman authority in an area if he decides that it's going to be province. Important provinces typically have governors that held the consulship in Rome, very senior senators. And for various reasons, by 6 CE, the emperor has decided that the area around Jerusalem, like lesser Judea, Samaria, that's going to be handled by a prefect. And a prefect is basically someone of equestrian rank from Rome, basically meaning wealthy, but not quite a senator. And his job is to go to Judea in this case, and he's a subordinate to a more senior governor. And that's the governor of Syria. Yeah. So the way to think about it, I suppose, is that there's the governor of Syria up here, Pontius Pilate's here, Herodonta pause is here. They have different backgrounds, but they have a lot of the same status and powers. And in instances in which the emperor decides not to make a place part of a province, they think of it as essentially a place that the Roman state has the right to intervene in, but they allow an ancestral member of the community there to govern.
- [25:47]
Host
I see.
- [25:48]
Dr. Andrade
Right. And so in many ways, Antipas and Pontius Pilate, they're sort of peers, but the way that they get Roman authority, in a sense, is totally, you know, different. And they have different backgrounds.
- [25:59]
Host
And I could see how they would be cooperating because they both have sort of the same boss, but also at odds with each other because they have sort of different ethnic backgrounds. I'm sure Pontius Pilate's like, look, I'm Roman. You know what I mean? I am of the higher lineage. I have a greater sort of bloodline. Whereas Antipas would say, no, no, I am of the people. I'm of this land, I'm Jewish. I understand who these people really are. So I'm actually the greater leader. So I can see them being, you know, cooperators, but also political opposition in some way.
- [26:28]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, precisely. There are tensions like that that, you know, that manifest themselves and that sort of relationship when we're dealing with like Roman governance, especially when people from Italy are interacting.
- [26:42]
Host
Right, that makes sense.
- [26:43]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [26:43]
Host
So then how does Christ go from. And again, I'll speak about Jesus as a historical figure because I think that's the nature that your book sort of takes.
- [26:52]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, that's more or less where I lean.
- [26:56]
Host
But so for the nature of our conversation, I think that'll be helpful.
- [26:58]
Dr. Andrade
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.
- [27:08]
Host
So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you.
- [27:12]
Dr. Andrade
To Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate, first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com so how does he.
- [27:29]
Host
Go from this, you know, early, sort of like rogue rabbi that's taking these people and sort of gathering these acolytes to then becoming a political threat?
- [27:41]
Dr. Andrade
Right. Well, in my opinion, and this is where I think a lot of people vary tremendously in how they write about the trial and the crucifixion. I think insofar as people like Pontius Pilate or Antipas are aware of Jesus, they're concerned about his message that he has this charismatic following. Right. That in various ways seems poised against the ruling structure. The way that I read the Gospel, Mark in particular, and there are other scholars that read it this way. When Jesus is moving about in Galilee, he typically isn't going to palace cities. He also is often leaving Galilee. Right. Particularly after John the Baptist is executed. And so his message, for one thing, does seem to be a concern for Antipas. And Antipas probably, in my view, has an interest in having him arrested and executed. And I think Jesus actually knows this and sometimes leaves Galilee, where Antipas himself doesn't really have direct jurisdiction. But I think in, in terms of what actually happens, the reason why Jesus ends up dying in the time and place that he does is because he has a message that's can Be pretty incendiary. But when he's preaching it, he's doing it at a place, and that is the Temple of Jerusalem that is known for outbreaks of serious violence, especially during holidays. It's a very sacred site, but it's also, in many ways, in 1st century Judea, a very politicized site. And it's not unusual for there to be riots, factional violence, moments when Roman troops engage in very repressive violence, even massacres, either at the Temple or in Jerusalem generally. And in my view, what happens is he's preaching this message and he's also engaging in behavior that could be considered confrontational that the gospels, right, point to what, like, you know, overturning money, changers, tables, that sort of thing. And I think what. I think the concern at this point is that, okay, he has this messianic message, right, this, this business about being a king that's not really sanctioned by Rome, but he's also preaching this in a place where people can have very, very, let's say, volatile emotions, a lot of social friction. And if you're someone like Pontius Pilate, one of your jobs is basically to ensure that social instability doesn't occur, right? That people don't incite violence, moments of intense factionalism. And I think Jesus is preaching, and particularly in Passover week at the temple, leaves him susceptible to being accused of doing something like that. And. And so when Pilate condemns him to crucifixion, he may be doing it for something different than from what Antipas might have been thinking about in Galilee, for example.
- [30:46]
Host
I see. And is there a specific moment that leads to the arrest?
- [30:51]
Dr. Andrade
I think in following, say, the Gospel of Mark and the way that it narrates the sequence of Jesus's final Passover, I think really what has happened is that, you know, for at least a couple of days, he's preaching at the Temple precinct. And as I mentioned, some of his behavior might actually be considered very intimidating and confrontational. He has a small following. You know, he has a lot of sympathizers according to the Gospels, but he has a small following at the Temple. They don't like certain things that are happening there. And so there are altercations. Right, I see. And. And I think one of the main jobs, say, of the chief priest, who, of course, are trying to make sure that these religious observances are happening the way that they should and that people are safe while doing it, is to, you know, neutralize problems of that nature. Right. If someone is doing things that could predictably lead to violence at the temple precinct. The chief priest and pilot, in one form of coordination or another, are supposed to. Right, I see.
- [31:52]
Host
So the religious power structure of the time, these high priests, they're not happy with this sort of confrontational nature of Christ. And then similarly, the power structure of Pontius Pilate is obviously not wanting some type of rebellion. So the two of them kind of both have their eyes on this guy. And so the 24 hours prior to his arrest. This is the Last Supper.
- [32:15]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:17]
Host
Is that the timeframe? It's roughly the day before.
- [32:20]
Dr. Andrade
Is that specifically stated in the synoptic tradition? Yeah. He's arrested on the night of Passover when it starts. Right. The Passover meal is being celebrated in the synoptic tradition after the lambs have been sacrificed in preparation for Passover. The Gospel of John dates it a little differently. He moves, I think. How do you put it, a day later. Right. Jesus dies on the day of preparation for Passover. So that's the synoptics dating. And I. I think what has happened, if you follow, like, Mark sequence, Jesus has done a lot of his activity at the temple that week. He doesn't actually appear to go back to the temple the couple of days before his final Passover meal, actually. And it's interesting to think about why that is. Right. Has something happened? Right. Is he detecting that if he goes back, there might be a problem of some sort? Because at the end. Right. In the Gospel of Mark in particular, the chief priests are portrayed as discussing whether they should arrest him in front of crowds. And the concern is that if they do that, violence, or some sort of major fight or some sort of social disturbance they can't really control. And so they opt to try to arrest Jesus away from a large crowd, which is actually, according to the Gospel of Mark and the other gospels, what they end up doing. Right. They're able to do this, you know, outside of the city in Gethsemane. Yep.
- [33:59]
Host
Okay, so take us to. To that scene. Okay, so he's in Gethsemane. And what is that place? And what is the significance, I guess, in the Gospels for why it happens here? It's obviously away from people. And who's there that witnesses the arrest? What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because you need more time. It is the most valuable commodity that exists. And Huel is going to help you do that. All right. If you're like me, you're constantly on the go. You're constantly running late. I mean, every time I'M leaving my house, I'm going out the door and I'm like, I forgot to eat today. And then I find myself just eating garbage, like throughout. I'm like going to the bodega corn to store, just grabbing like sugary nonsense or even if I'm trying to eat good, oftentimes it's packed with stuff that's terrible for me. And that's why I love Hu. All right. Hu is everything you need. It is a complete balanced meal, all in this convenient, beautiful little bottle. In this bottle, I'm telling you right now, you're going to get everything you need to power you through the day. 35 grams of protein, 25 vitamins and minerals, 7 grams of dietary fiber. I mean, omega 3, omega 6, everything that you need. I mean, it is a scientific process to put all the nutrients packed into this bottle. Not only is it extremely convenient and you can take it on the go with you anywhere you need. It's extremely healthy. It's going to give you all the energy and good vibes to get through the day in order to tackle everything, whether it's going to the gym, going to work, you know, going on a date with your girl, whatever you need. And most importantly, it's extremely affordable. That's right, it is. You know, you're going to see these in your corner store, in your bodega and your 711 gas station back home. Pick up a Huel, try it for yourself. It tastes great, it's easy, it's convenient, it's good for you, and it's very affordable. And it actually just got little bit more affordable for the people that listen to this show. That's right, because when you go to hu.com and use a promo code camp, that's hu h.com camp. Use the promo code camp. And the listeners of this program are going to be getting 15% off and a free gift. What is that gift? No one knows. But if you want to find out, check it out. Hu.com use the promo code camp. Get 50% off your order and try it for yourself. Get some time back. Stop eating garbage all day. Get something that actually nourishes your body, empowers you for all the tough things that life might throw at you.
- [36:13]
Dr. Andrade
Let's get back to the show, right? I mean, for me, if I'm talking about in terms of like, not say, theology, but in terms of historically, what it means, I, I think the significance is that when the chief priest or Pontius Pilate and people vary in terms of whether who they think Arrests Jesus. And sometimes they follow the Gospel narratives more closely, sometimes they don't. But I think the significance is that when a decision is made to do an arrest, the authorities in play, whether they're the chief priest, as the synoptic suggest, or maybe more Roman, as the Gospel of John indicates, they really want to arrest him, maybe in the presence of his core followers, but not where there are a lot of people, particularly people who might be, say, sympathetic to him, or maybe, you know, people who might be sympathetic or unsympathetic, who might, you know, enter into conflict of some sort. So I think the significance, and I think what's happening the days before Jesus's arrest is that he's not really at the temple, and. But people don't really know where he is either. And they need to find out. Right. They want to know where he's lodging.
- [37:24]
Host
And how do they find out?
- [37:25]
Dr. Andrade
Well, in the Gospels, right, He's betrayed by a supporter. Right. And that's, of course, the infamous Judas. One way or another, the chief priest or pilot are able to collect information about, you know, where he's lodging. And he does shift his locations noticeably during Passover week. He lodges in different places and so forth. And so I think what. What's happening there, even though the Gospels don't always make it explicit, is that Jesus is someone cognizant that there's going to be an interest in arresting him. He succeeded at preaching in the temple and not being arrested there just because it's sort of dangerous to do an arrest. But when he's away from large crowds and places like the temple precinct, he doesn't necessarily want people to know where he is unless they're trusted followers. And for an arrest to happen. Right, right. It happens when, you know, people who want to arrest him are able to collect information on where he is.
- [38:21]
Host
And it's reported in the Gospels that he's extremely stressed during this time, that he's sort of agonizing, that he's sweating blood. Yeah. And that he's more or less aware that the arrest is imminent. I'm curious. The arrest occurs according to the Gospel record. It is Roman soldiers that arrest him.
- [38:43]
Dr. Andrade
In John. There seems to be a Roman cohort and tribune present in the synoptics. Right. You know, Mark, Matthew, and Luke. It's actually the chief priest who are portrayed as exercising more agency, which strikes me as somewhat plausible because local municipal leaders in the Roman Empire in this period often organize posses if they're trying to confront someone who doesn't have a massive following or an army or something like that.
- [39:12]
Host
I see.
- [39:13]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [39:13]
Host
Now this actually might be a helpful time to kind of delineate the synoptics versus John. Yeah. You know, people will point to these as sort of being anachronistic from each other. Could you just kind of explain, I guess scholarly, like, what is the scholarship around the synoptic Gospels versus John and where do they differ insofar as the. The trial of Jesus? Like up until this point?
- [39:34]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, of course. Well, when I've been saying the synops, synoptics, as I'm sure you know. Right. It's referring to Mark, Matthew and Luke and they're called that because it's basically derived from a Greek word meaning that you can basically look at them together and see a lot of the same material. And if you've read the three Gospels and I'm sure that you have you noticed that there's a lot of material been a little. Yeah, yeah, precisely. And, and so it's clear that those three Gospels have some sort of relationship with one another. And that relationship has been debated. Right. Which comes first? Which is derived from the other? Is there, you know, a Q source that maybe Matthew and Luke are getting information from that isn't in Mark, but the way that scholars often think about it, Again, not with like universal consensus, you know, these high stakes debates about. Right. Biblical text. Mark's often thought of as being the earliest and whatever early Gospel tradition or traditions associated with Jesus. Right. Mark is closer in proximity chronologically. And then from there Matthew and Luke seem to be taking material from Mark but also doing some things of their own and also some things in common that aren't in Mark. And from there scholars debate about, you know, how historical this other stuff is that appears in Matthew and Luke, especially if it's not dependent on Mark. So that's basically those three texts. And then John is always been treated as something as an outlier because it's so different, so different theologically. It also changes a lot of the chronology of Jesus's activity. And there's a debate about whether whoever wrote John is actually aware of the other synoptics, particularly Mark. Right. Or common traditions and reworking them. And so for me, what I was doing when I was writing the book is that I was privileging Mark, which isn't too unusual. I often thought of that as maybe having the substrate that's closest to being historical where the other gospels doing things because, you know, there was a theological message or a cosmic message that they're communicating, but that might move Us a little bit more from the history of Jesus per se.
- [41:49]
Host
Yeah. I've heard that justification given for John that it's sort of written more with like, almost a romantic, symbolic and, you know, more literary lens that, you know, trying to draw more symbolism with Christ's sacrifice and sort of the tradition of the Jews and Passover and things like that to create a more robust literary message, whereas the others seem to be a bit more historical, which is why you have these sort of anachronistic disparities between those texts.
- [42:21]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [42:23]
Host
Do you feel like that's a fair assessment amongst broadly speaking, scholarship of these texts?
- [42:29]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, I would say that's generally accurate. John is typically dated the latest, and where it departs from the Synoptics, it's either doing a lot of resequencing or it's getting information from somewhere that we really can't, you know, defined very easily.
- [42:45]
Host
That makes sense.
- [42:46]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. And. And John, intriguingly, is the only Gospel to place Roman troops at Jesus's arrest. And so from there, what happens, the scholars say, okay, either John has access to some sort of early tradition that maybe the synoptics decided to veer away from. Right. Or maybe John, being a bit later, is writing in a period where maybe Roman troops would normally have done that sort of arrest instead of, say, a posse organized by municipal elites. Right. I see policing technically changes in the Roman Empire over the course of time, and maybe the gospels, depending on their dates, reflect those changes.
- [43:22]
Host
I see, yeah.
- [43:24]
Dr. Andrade
And it's an important question, though, because. Right. And I know that it's something that people have discussed quite a lot. Right. It's the issue of who exercises agency in killing, in killing Jesus. Right. There's been a lot of. Right. Anti Semitic views on the basis of that. And so when we're reading the Gospel of John and his Roman troops doing this. Right. You know, it can be very compelling because it's a moment where it's really, you know, according to that narrative, it's the Romans doing it. And that might be, you know, another reason why people privilege that text because. Yeah. You know, the discussion of who's responsible, who exercises agency, has a lot of high stakes in that regard.
- [44:05]
Host
Yeah, of course. And I. I get. We'll get to that and kind of discuss that as it comes to the actual trial itself.
- [44:10]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [44:11]
Host
From the arrest, when and where does the trial take place?
- [44:15]
Dr. Andrade
Right. Well, following the same mark, which I've been doing so far. Right. What basically happens is Jesus is arrested and he's taken to the house of the high Priest Mark doesn't give the name. It's commonly assumed to be Caiaphas, which is the name Matthew gives. Although what's intriguing is at this point, right in 1st century Judea, is that a lot of ex high priest also still get called a high priest. And Caiaphas, father in law, also can technically be labeled that. And that's actually what John says.
- [44:54]
Host
Oh, interesting.
- [44:55]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. So there's some variation there, but the text, in unison, indicate that he's basically brought to the house of a senior priestly figure to be questioned. And from there, scholars debate intensely about how accurate. Right. What is reported is or even whether this episode took place because there are these concerns. Are the Gospels maybe shifting authority or agency away from Romans to the chief priest?
- [45:23]
Host
Right.
- [45:24]
Dr. Andrade
In my view, I think that given what I know, or think I know about policing in the Roman Empire, it actually would have been pretty reasonable. Right. To assess Jesus's liability for a serious charge. Right. And to have a conversation of some sort, even if it's not necessarily verbatim. Right. What the. What the Gospels are reporting. Right. And so when the chief priest, they basically organize a council of other priestly elites and, you know, scribes and so forth. In my view, what's happening is they assess Jesus liability should he be liable for a capital charge. And when the answer is yes, that's when they bring him to Jesus. Sorry, to Pilate's headquarter for trial, which is, of course, by the next morning.
- [46:15]
Host
Okay, so he's arrested, taken to the house of the high priest. And that Inquisition, what exactly are they assessing at that inquisition?
- [46:24]
Dr. Andrade
I think they're basically trying to determine what his message is, for one thing. Right.
- [46:31]
Host
And what does he say his message is at that Inquisition?
- [46:34]
Dr. Andrade
Well, in the Gospel reports, he basically makes statements that clarify that he sees himself as a messianic figure and that the day of judgment is near. And by implication, it's not going to work out. Well, I see.
- [46:50]
Host
I've heard some scholars just dispute that Christ refers to himself as a God or a messianic figure.
- [46:58]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [46:59]
Host
Do you find, based off of your research in the Gospels, that it's clear that at this point in this inquisition that he accepts that title? Or do you understand where the dispute comes from in that regard?
- [47:12]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, yeah, that's a fascinating question. I think in the Gospel of Mark, Right. That's actually the moment in which he sort of owns that label very visibly. And I think that's one reason why people debate how historically accurate it is. It almost seems too convenient that at that Pivotal moment. Right. When before he seems to be suggesting. He doesn't really use the term for himself a lot, he's calling himself Son of Man, which I would say certainly has Messianic connotations. But he's also telling his disciples or apostles, right. You know, be careful who you tell about me. Right. And so there does seem to be, you know, traces in the synoptics of an unwillingness. Right. To basically label himself that. And that's why sometimes when scholars reconstruct Jesus's life, they even argue that he didn't even argue he was Messiah at all. Those arguments do exist, actually, because of stuff like that. I do think that in terms of his social performance, let's say, the way he presented himself to others, I think there were things that would have landed Messianic for audiences, both of people sympathetic to him and people not.
- [48:17]
Host
I see. Do you remember any specific text or, I guess, moments where he would say that, that you feel like for the audience, they would understand that he's saying that he's the Messiah.
- [48:30]
Dr. Andrade
Oh, for the audience, I guess the.
- [48:35]
Host
Audience of that time. Right. To say the Son of Man to us may not have the same connotation, but I'm assuming to the people of Judea at that time or of Jerusalem at that time, they would hear that and go, oh, we understand what you're saying. So what did he say specifically at the Inquisition with the high priest that you feel like is conclusive that he's accepting the role?
- [48:53]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. So what happens is, according to the synoptics, they have different. Somewhat different phrasing. You know, he's asked basically whether he thinks himself as the Son of God. And he basically says, yes. And then he does a quotation from the book of Daniel and I think connected to some Psalms, which is highly communicative of that Messianic stature. Right. That he's going to be seated at the right hand of the God. Right. So there's a statement that taps into a lot of parts of, say, the Hebrew biblical tradition that spell Messianic.
- [49:34]
Host
I see.
- [49:34]
Dr. Andrade
And he is interacting with those quotations.
- [49:38]
Host
I see. So for the priestly class of that time, they would be aware of that, you know, him referencing these other texts that they would have had an awareness. You know, he's referencing Psalms, he's referencing Daniel. And they would say, oh, okay, this is, you know, heresy to some. Some regards for you to claim that you're the Son of God.
- [49:57]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. And, you know, in Mark and the other synoptics or Matthew, anyway, that's actually what happens when he says that? They instantaneously get really upset. And the high priest, you know, basically says that he blasphemed, which seems to be a way of saying that he put himself on par with God or in too much proximity to God to be acceptable. And so there's a cosmic message there, but it's also very much a political message because. Right. If Jesus is the Messiah, you know, it implies that the chief priest, Their governance of the temple isn't legitimate.
- [50:37]
Host
Right, I see. Okay. So that's grounds for them to say, all right, capital punishment is acceptable, and they take them to Pilate the next morning.
- [50:45]
Dr. Andrade
In the Gospels, that certainly presented us something that motivates them. I see. I think the grounds for capital punishment from, like, a Roman vantage point would be something different, and it really would be what Jesus was doing at the temple that we discussed earlier. And scholars often notice the pivot. Right. In the account. So when the chief priest or the high priest is asking Jesus questions, there seems to be an interest in figuring out, right. Does he think he's the Messiah? Does he think that he's some sort of, you know, heavenly sin agent? Right. But when they, you know, bring him to pilot, Pilate's really interested in knowing whether he's king of the Jews, quote, unquote. And at that point, there does seem to be a reframing. Right. Is Jesus doing something that's seditionous in the eyes of Romans?
- [51:36]
Host
I see. Okay. So he's taken to Pilate's residence, like to his actual home, his headquarters, which.
- [51:42]
Dr. Andrade
Would be also his home, but it would be on the western part of the city and where Roman troops are present.
- [51:48]
Host
Okay.
- [51:48]
Dr. Andrade
And it used to be Herod's palace, actually, but after, you know, that part of Judea is taken away from the Herodians and put under the control of equestrian prefects. They actually live in that palace that Herod built on Jerusalem's western end. And so, yeah, the. The chief priest and their supporters take Jesus there. And outside of it, presumably, maybe inside of it. But I think outside of it is where Pilate would have often held court.
- [52:18]
Host
So what does that scene look like? Like, could you paint the picture? They. They take this man, Jesus Christ, and they say, this man is. Is, you know, deserving of capital punishment. The charge is, you know, blasphemy, saying that he's, you know, on par with God. And where. Where would Pilate be? Would he be sort of in his headquarters? Who would be around him? How many people would have gathered for this trial?
- [52:39]
Dr. Andrade
Right. So If Pilate's inside of his headquarters, there's basically like a Roman, you know, garrison there. And he would take quite a bit of troops with him whenever he went to Jerusalem. He normally is in a place called Caesarea on the coast. That's where the Roman troop presence at the time tends to be. There's a garrison at the temple and a tower called the Antonia. But for the most part, when he comes to Jerusalem during, say, festivals, he has probably at least as many as several thousand troops.
- [53:14]
Host
Oh, wow.
- [53:15]
Dr. Andrade
Because there is this concern of social instability. And one thing, how to prevent it from happening. But what do you do if it happens? Right.
- [53:23]
Host
And you had mentioned that around the holidays, there are typically, you know, moments of rebellion or there's. There's moments of violence. So they would have had probably many troops there around this time of Passover.
- [53:32]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, I see. Yeah.
- [53:34]
Host
Okay.
- [53:35]
Dr. Andrade
And from there, it's not unusual for trials just basically to be in public, actually outside, maybe, you know, if there's a colonnade or basilica or a place maybe that can, you know, hide from the shade, that's where, you know, a prefect would set up their tribunal. People theorize where exactly from there, say, the trial of Jesus would have happened inside the pri, you know, the headquarters, or just outside it. I tend to prefer just outside it. Although, intriguingly, John again departs from the other Gospels. And according to John, the chief priests don't want to go in the headquarters because they're concerned about pollution and what. How it might. In fact, how it might impact. They're having the Passover meal. So in John, what's happening is Pilate's sort of moving back and forth. He's questioning Jesus inside his headquarters, you know, that complex where the Romans are garrisoned. And then he goes outside to talk to the chief priest. Some people find that plausible, others don't. I tend to think that the trial would have happened in one another's presence.
- [54:44]
Host
I see.
- [54:45]
Dr. Andrade
And outside the praetorium and generally visible to passerbys. So there could conceivably be a fair amount of people watching, especially during Passover week, where there are a lot of pilgrims, a lot of people in Jerusalem.
- [54:58]
Host
I see. And they would want to. They would see this gathering of people and be curious as to what's going on.
- [55:02]
Dr. Andrade
They might be.
- [55:03]
Host
I see. And then were Christ's disciples present at the trial?
- [55:09]
Dr. Andrade
Well, according to the Gospels, they're not. Right. When Jesus is arrested, there's a brief moment of resistance, but for the most part, right. Jesus is detained, and at least in the Gospel narratives, that diffuses the situation. The people who did the arrest got what they came for. People debate how accurate that is. But I would certainly say that for the apostles, they are anticipating that they could be arrested too.
- [55:39]
Host
I think they. What, Peter is accosted and he's sort of interrogated in some capacity according to the Gospels.
- [55:47]
Dr. Andrade
Right. And he goes to the house where Jesus is being arrested. And you need to think of it as like a courtyard house, Mediterranean style, where, you know, there's a large central courtyard where people can be hanging out and it's almost a semi public place. And that's where people are saying, hey, are you one of the Galileans following Jesus? And he denies it. Yeah. In the Gospels, he's the one that comes the closest. Right. To that sort of danger. For the most part, what they portray is Jesus's core followers basically distancing himself. Right. Once to themselves, once he's arrested. And you know, subsequently that will often be commented on because, you know, early Christians will think of this as a moment where the apostles are relatively weak, but then they subsequently do great things and risk their lives and turn it around. Right.
- [56:33]
Host
Jesus arrest. What happens to Judas between like his arrest and the trial?
- [56:37]
Dr. Andrade
Is that clearly stated in some gospels? He commits suicide. Yeah. I can't remember which particular gospels or Gospel says that. That. Right, yeah.
- [56:48]
Host
Do other gospels say that he does something differently? I always, I forget my Sunday school is escaping me, but I believe Judas, like is involved in gambling away, like the belongings of Christ or in some capacity.
- [57:02]
Dr. Andrade
There are gambling among Roman soldiers. Right. In the Gospel traditions. Right. They gamble for whatever possessions he has, which of course, given his message, are not very ample. Right. I mean, in the Gospels he's paid money, right. You know, 30 shekels, something like that. Right. And I don't remember the gambling part, to be honest.
- [57:24]
Host
I see, okay.
- [57:25]
Dr. Andrade
His involvement in it.
- [57:25]
Host
But, but Judas is paid for the turnover of information.
- [57:29]
Dr. Andrade
That's what the Gospels. Yeah. Say. And from there people debate how accurate that is. Did they. You know, because the fascinating thing about the Gospels is that they're telling a story about Jesus's life, but they're, you know, they also have a sort of cosmic message which might affect how they tell the story. And some people, you know, think maybe they collected information from other means or maybe Pilate knew where, you know, arrested Jesus before Passover even really started. Right, I see.
- [57:54]
Host
Would that have been outside of the nature of Roman prefects to pay for information? Or do you think that's plausible?
- [58:02]
Dr. Andrade
I think they would try to get information wherever they can get it.
- [58:06]
Host
30 shekels would have been a pittance compared to the power and the wealth of the. The prefect.
- [58:12]
Dr. Andrade
Right, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure you could afford it.
- [58:14]
Host
Okay.
- [58:15]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, that's something that he really wants.
- [58:16]
Host
I see. So at his trial, how many other people would have. Would. Would have gathered, like, would enemies of. Of Christ and, you know, people of like that sort of priestly class, would many of them have gone to ensure that Pilate delivers a punishment, or would it have been just the sort of high priest that had arrested him?
- [58:34]
Dr. Andrade
Well, as the people that are technically bringing the prosecution. Right. The high priest would be there. Conceivably other people are there. And the Gospels, of course, indicate that some of them are people supportive of the chief priest of Jerusalem. There could potentially be sympathizers of Jesus there, although the Gospel suggests that there aren't many. And they may be keeping a distance, of course.
- [59:00]
Host
Right.
- [59:00]
Dr. Andrade
But there could just be curious bystanders. Sometimes trials could be entertaining enough for people to actually want to watch them. Right.
- [59:11]
Host
Does the trial begin? How does Pilate begin to assess the. The crime and therefore the punishment for Christ?
- [59:20]
Dr. Andrade
Right. I mean, what happens in Mark is that, you know, Pilate is basically just asking them, are you king of the Jews? And Jesus doesn't really respond to that. And I think what's happening here, assuming basic historicity of that sequence, is that Pilate is trying to find out what Jesus was saying at the temple precinct. Right. I think at this point the charge is basically sedition. Jesus is saying and doing things at the temple which could cause a social disturbance in which people could get hurt, including potentially even innocent people. Right. And part of the accusation is that when Jesus is doing this stuff at the temple, he's claiming to be some sort of regal figure. Right. You know, he's a king. You know, there's going to be a reign of God in a day of judgment. And he's, you know, the point person for all of that. That. I think that's what Pontius Pilate is trying to assess. And when Jesus isn't really denying it, I think he convicts. Right.
- [60:18]
Host
He says something to the effect of if you say that I am or something to that effect. He basically says, if you say I'm the king of the Jews, then. Or I guess something. He says, that's what you say, or something to that effect. Is that fair?
- [60:30]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, if I recall correctly.
- [60:33]
Host
And so now it seems like Pilate, according to the gospel tradition, is a little Bit, you know, like, hey, I don't know what's, you know, what this guy did. It seems like he's innocent. And there seems like there's a mounting pressure to, you know, go forth with punishment regardless. So can you kind of take us through the Gospel's rendition of, you know, highlight's kind of ambivalence to the actual, you know, punishment.
- [60:59]
Dr. Andrade
Right. So the way that the Gospels portray it is that, that they all do it in somewhat different ways. And the later the gospel typically the more elaborate. But what essentially happens is that Pilate's really portrayed as being well convinced of Jesus's fundamental innocence of, of any serious crime. Right. And he doesn't want to execute. He's aware that according to the Gospels, that the chief priests had their own motivations for bringing Jesus before him. Right. He's a rival for authority or he's popular and they don't like it. That's basically the, the motives that the Gospels are attributing. And so what Pilate does is he's basically trying not to get Jesus executed. And the card that he plays is essentially to honor what is in the Gospels presented as a tradition and which the prefect would release. Right. A prisoner during Passover if requested by a crowd. And so the way that the Gospel is portrayed is that Pilate, he feels a certain pressure to do this from the crowd, also from the, the chief priest to technically of the people that he has to coordinate with a lot for governance in Jerusalem. He's feeling that pressure. He also doesn't want to make a decision that might upset a crowd. Right. You know, because it's his job to deter, you know, social unrest and so forth. Forth. But at the same time, he doesn't want to kill Jesus because he thinks Jesus hasn't done anything. And so he's trying to come out with sort of a backdoor way to save Jesus. And it involves seeing if a crowd will, you know, request his release.
- [62:39]
Host
Yeah, the crowd does not request his release.
- [62:41]
Dr. Andrade
Nope. Not in the Gospel, certainly. Yeah. Right.
- [62:44]
Host
And I could see, I'm curious what you think, looking at not only the Gospels, but other literature, other historical literature of, of Pontius Pilate. I've kind of heard conflicting stories. It seems like, you know, some people suggest that in the Gospels that Pilate is a little bit wishy washy, that he's a little bit unsure. I've heard that there are other accounts of, you know, Pilate being like a very, you know, fierce and sort of authoritarian ruler. I'm curious, like, how does the Gospel's account of Pilate. You know, how does that line up with some of the other historical accounts of Pilate?
- [63:19]
Dr. Andrade
Right, right. That's a fascinating question because, you know, as far as ancient people go, we know a bit more about pilot than most, which isn't to say necessarily a lot, but you know, enough to I think, to make some inferences. So his career is narrated by the historian Josephus that may have already come up. Right. Who was writing at the end of the first century, but is really our main source. Right. For first century Judea and the Herodian dynasty and all the, all the people like that. And the pilot that is portrayed there is someone that doesn't shrink from violence for one thing, who in some cases actually at the end of his career even massacres an uprising of sorts of Samaritans, Josephus and Fo, who also writes about pilots, they sometimes depict him as being. And actually an overly violent governor, maybe too violent. And, and that's not unusual to see about a lot of Roman governors. Right. And it's hard to say how different he might have been from other governors in that respect, but he's certainly someone that from time to time did things that Jews deemed sacrilegious that caused some social friction. And in my assessment, what happens is that Pilate tends to be a little hesitant to inflict large scale violence among people in Jewish society if he's really not doing it to enforce Roman and chief priestly rule. Right. So he's more likely to do it if say, there's a charismatic who has a following and doing stuff that raises the suspicion of say, the chief priests who are municipal governors at Jerusalem or other Roman authorities. And the way that I think it connects to the trial is that, you know, if the chief priests are bringing charges, that does matter. Right. Their opinion about whether someone might be doing something subversive matters to Pilate. But I also don't think that he's just going to kill someone because other people want him to. I think he doesn't hesitate when he thinks someone has convicted a crime to convict them and execute them. And I think that's more or less what Josephus supports. And yeah, but certainly in Josephus and Father, he's not depicted as someone who gets pushed around. Right. At trials by other people or anything like that.
- [65:44]
Host
Right. Which to me seems, you know, fairly similar to the gospels. Like in my experience in reading the Gospels, I don't see Pilate as weak. I see him as a very savvy politician that he can sort of say, look I don't think this guy really did anything wrong and sort of placate the followers of Jesus. But at the same time, I want to support the people that are bringing him to me and the people that think that he's blasphemed or a heretic in some capacity. And I see him kind of playing both sides. So you're innocent, but I will kill you. And by doing that, you kind of are able to play both sides, because if you just release this guy, then now all of a sudden you have the high priests that are gonna be causing some type of rebellion. Jesus is not gonna go away, and his teaching will go on, and that could cause more strife, life. So it seems like he kind of does what is in the best interest for Pilate and, you know, the Roman Empire at that point. That's the way that I interpret it. Is that a fair interpretation, you think?
- [66:45]
Dr. Andrade
I think it's a fair interpretation. I interpret it differently, to be sure.
- [66:52]
Host
In what way?
- [66:53]
Dr. Andrade
But I think personally that he just. He thinks Jesus committed a crime and convicts him and that the Gospels are sort of resequencing it to make it appear that he thinks that Jesus is innocent. But having said that, you know, I'm just one opinion. And this has been written about a lot, and, you know, we're dealing with complicated texts where we're basically trying to come up with plausible scenarios and sort of hash them out. And so your interpretation is one that scholars do argue for quite a bit. Right. At some level, Pontius Pilate, you know, maybe doesn't think Jesus has committed a crime, but he is politically savvy and also sees that there's a window maybe to have him convicted of a crime, but also try to find a way to sort of exonerate him or have him released, and it just doesn't work out. Or maybe by having the crowd acclaim. Right. He can basically make himself appear populist and. And things like that. Right. And so there are those reconstructions where, you know, in essence, people argue that, you know, Pilate thinks that Jesus is innocent, but he's looking for a savvy way to get to the endpoint of execution. That's politically astute. I see. And, yeah, that is definitely one way to read the Gospels and try to, like, you know, make sense of all that's happening now.
- [68:15]
Host
Why? I guess capital punishment is the first question, and then the second question we can get to in a second is why crucifixion action, specifically. So capital punishment, why is that? The. The. I guess the Punishment, Why not banishment or, you know, long term imprisonment?
- [68:31]
Dr. Andrade
Right. That's a fascinating question, because people often ask, right, if Pilate executed a person just because, let's say, other people wanted him to, why crucifixion? Because that is serious. Right. And, you know, in terms of the arsenal of like capital punishments that Roman prefects dole out, that's really the top. You know, and later juridical texts, crucifixion is often thought of as like one of the top two worst ways to have someone executed. Burning alive is considered actually approximate. So it's really, really serious. So something that scholars ask is, you know, if pilots having someone killed, right. Not because he thinks that person's committed a crime, but because he's politically savvy. Right. Is under certain pressure. Why so gruesome and why so public? Right. Why does it have to be those things?
- [69:25]
Host
What other punishments were doled out by prefects of that time? Like, would lashings have been a punishment that someone could have, could have taken?
- [69:34]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, he could have theoretically lashed Jesus and let him go. And there are parallels for that in Josephus. Actually, to return to a similar example, I think an important similar example. So, you know, if he convicted Jesus of a crime, even one that might have been moderately serious, he could have actually decided to have a less harsh punishment. Governors in the first century have a lot of flexibility on this. There aren't necessarily like a lot of hard and fast rules governing how they make these sorts of decisions. Right. So a lot is really up to Pilate. I think he could have had Jesus lashed and released, even if officially convicting him of something. Right. Or if capital punishment, you know, beheading, something like that. Right. Which is gruesome and also an awful, but, you know, arguably quicker and, you know, not as much agonizing and suffering and.
- [70:25]
Host
And there is a precedent for that in first century Judea that, you know, beheading would have been an option. Picture this. 1945. As Nazi Germany falls, American agents race against Soviet spies to capture the Third Reich's top scientists. The mission, Operation Paperclip, a classified program that would bring rocket scientists, including Wernher von Braun, to American soil, forever changing the space race. Meanwhile, beneath the Vatican lies a labyrinth of shells stretching for 53 miles, holding secrets spanning two millennia, from Galileo's trial documents to letters from Michelangelo. In 1980, a researcher discovers a scroll that would challenge everything we know about medieval history. These aren't just made up fairy tales. They are documented history you'll explore in today, in history, a Newsletter that reveals the classified files and hidden archives that shaped our world. Experience history's greatest revelations. Scan the QR code or click the link below to join today in history.
- [71:30]
Dr. Andrade
I mean, I think Roman governors don't even necessarily need the precedent, to be honest, but. But I'm sure there was. I wouldn't be able to pull up a textual example, but what's been happening, you know, really for the. The previous 100 years or so as Roman governors go to different provinces, is that, you know, it's really largely up to them to identify what criminal behavior is and whether it warrants a certain form of punishment and whether it should be capital or not. And if. If capital, what sort of punishment. Right. So he could have done something more mild. Right. Than crucifixion, which is a lot harsher, at least according to the way that Roman jurists seem to think of it. But crucifixion is something that had been inflicted on, you know, people that often had engaged in notional conduct that was hostile to the political order. Right. It's not unusual to see, like, insurrectionists and seditionists crucified, which is something that a lot of scholars writing about Jesus emphasize. Right. If, you know, let's say we're following the gospel sequences, right. The chief priest seemed to think that he say. He said something blasphemous. That's the way it's couched there. They take him to Pilate, and Pilate is asking whether he called himself King of the Jews. Right. The question that comes up is, okay, would that in itself be something that would necessitate or warrant a crucifixion? Right. You know, that's just as really serious. And that's why I think sometimes when people are trying to make sense of it all, they think that maybe, you know, Pilot was convicting him of something more serious, maybe even some sort of seditionist behavior, however defined, and that explains the punishment and the publicity of the punishment. And that if he really was executing someone because he's, you know, he's just making his way. Right. And he's trying to, you know, you know, come up with the best solution in a volatile situation, you know, for himself included. Right. He could have opted for other forms of punishment that weren't that as serious, even if they were capital.
- [73:33]
Host
Was crucifixion called for by the people or by the high priests? Or was that doled out by Pilate himself?
- [73:41]
Dr. Andrade
In the Gospels, it's called for by people and watching the trial, but something that scholars emphasize often, and I Think correctly. So is that it's a distinctively romantic form of punishment. Right. That's actually the tradition in which we can most obviously locate it. It's not, at least in an obvious way, like a practice that would have been customary, you know, to say, Jews in Jerusalem. And so when people are reconstructing the trial and they're trying to sift through the Gospel narratives and assess which is more historical, which isn't. Right. What do we prioritize? The crucifixion, that mode of punishment is actually an important starting point because it spells Roman, and it spells a Roman punishment for a form of behavior that a Roman identified as somehow criminally subversive. I see, right. Yeah.
- [74:34]
Host
So how quickly after the trial is he then taken to be crucified?
- [74:38]
Dr. Andrade
Pretty much immediately. And I think that would have been pretty standard. Right. Once you're convicted of a capital crime or execution follows quickly.
- [74:48]
Host
So now. Now, as it's kind of told in the Gospels, there's lashings that Christ suffers. He has to carry the cross to the point of the crucifixion. Are these things common amongst the Romans at that time that you would have to sort of suffer this sort of humiliation aspect of the crucifixion? Or how do you understand that as it's written in the Gospels compared to other historical texts?
- [75:13]
Dr. Andrade
Right. I think that would have been everything that the Gospel says on that respect, or the Gospels say, strikes me as very plausible, given, I think, what we know about Roman imperialism and so forth.
- [75:26]
Host
Could you take us through just sort of the. The key moments in that sort of.
- [75:31]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [75:32]
Host
That crucifixion.
- [75:33]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. And so once Pilate makes that decision, however he makes it, and whether or not he formally convicts, which the Gospel sort of, you know, they make it unclear whether he does that. And. And Luke, he even says that Jesus is innocent but has him killed anyway. Right. And, you know, that is often, you know, to some degree, perplexed people. But once he makes that decision that crucifixion is happening and the crowd hasn't accepted Jesus and so forth, you know, what he essentially does is he has Jesus scourged. Right. Which involves, you know, whips and, you know, maybe metal barbs on them. And that form of punishment is serious. You know, I don't want to say as serious as the crucifixion that follows, but it's a very disfiguring punishment. And Roman governors, they have the discretionary power typically, to have people lashed with rods for disciplinary reasons, even if it's not clear that they committed a crime. But when you start to have whips, including whips with barbs on them, typically they're supposed to be a criminal conviction. Right. And for me, the scourging, as well as the crucifixion, is indicative that Pilate convicted Jesus of something and something that was at least supposedly serious. Whereas, you know, other accounts, sometimes even, you know, make the argument that there might not have even been a trial or anything like that. Right. Or Pilate may not have actually formally convicted them. I find that unlikely just because of the way that that punishment plays out. And if you're a governor and you do that to someone who's freeborn in the Roman Empire, even if not like a Roman citizen, that's really serious without a criminal conviction. So that actually strikes me as very plausible. Right. If the crime is serious enough, you have the scourging, the carrying of your own crossbeam, you know, things that humiliate, things that, you know, amplify suffering, things that send perhaps a message if they're public enough. Right. Yeah. When. When I read the Gospels, I've never really. Never doubted the plausibility of that basic element of it.
- [77:39]
Host
Now, the specific humiliation of, like, the crown of thorns and things like that, Would that have been plausible, given the Roman punishment structure? Like, would they have singled out a specific person to humiliate them further? Like this idea of the crown of thorns, obviously, to mock that he's claiming to be the king of the Jews. How does that fit within your historical research?
- [78:00]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. And so in the Gospels, it's the soldiers who do that, and whether they do it, Pilate's orders, in my recollection, somewhat ambiguous. Right. But they. Yeah, they start to mock him as a. As a royal figure. Right. I think they. They dress him with, like, a purple robe, and there's that, you know, a mock crown that's, you know, also harmful. And I think the way to think about it is that once Jesus or anyone really is convicted of a crime, particularly a serious criminal offense, sedition, something like that, I. I think the way that it's thought of is that they basically don't have, for lack of a better term, what you would think of as any civil rights anymore. So whether Pontius Pilate orders it is unclear. But I think once he convicts Jesus, the soldiers, more or less, they have to follow through with the crucifixion. But otherwise they're sort of just doing what they want in mockery, which is what the. The Gospels are portraying. And, yeah, I think that whether we call that A structure, I guess, is another thing. But I certainly think at that point what's happening is that, you know, Jesus has been handed over to soldiers. They have a lot of discretion over how they humiliate. Humiliate and hurt him.
- [79:05]
Host
And is there a historical record of humiliation of other crucifixion victims? Is there any other record that to say someone else that got crucified was humiliated in some other similar fashion?
- [79:17]
Dr. Andrade
I wouldn't be able to pull up a quotation off the top of my head. I'd have to do more research on that. That's a great question, though, and it's helpful to find those types of parallels.
- [79:25]
Host
Yeah. And the religious structure for Pilate and these Roman soldiers, they would have likely been of the, I guess, faith of maybe like the Roman pantheon of gods. Is that fair? They wouldn't have been Jews. They would have been religious in some other type of polytheistic fashion.
- [79:47]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, quite probably.
- [79:48]
Host
Okay. Is that ever mentioned in the Gospels, like their faith traditions or their belief in divinity?
- [79:53]
Dr. Andrade
I don't think that there's a huge emphasis put on that.
- [79:56]
Host
Do you think they're strongly pious, like, you know, Pontius Pilate and these other. Other Roman soldiers, Like, do they have a strong faith in their Roman gods? Do they see Christ's claim to be divine also blasphemous to their faith?
- [80:14]
Dr. Andrade
I think that they do believe in many gods. And I think what happens with the Romans is that their cosmic understanding of what divine is is quite pliable, and it can always have more divinities involved. Right. You know, if Jesus is claiming, right, to be somehow, let's say, a figure of divinity or a heavenly sin agent, I think they might have thought that was maybe in their own minds, perhaps unlikely.
- [80:48]
Host
I see.
- [80:48]
Dr. Andrade
Or something like that. Whether they would have been offended, I think is a little bit harder to pin down because, you know, they're in a tradition where, like, Roman emperors, they sort of receive, you know, divine recognition of some sort. Right, interesting.
- [81:04]
Host
I could also see just Roman soldiers in general looking down likely on the population that they were governing, that I could see them saying, like, oh, this poor Jewish guy thinks he's God. You know what I mean? Like, we're from Rome. We know what gods are. We've seen, you know, our religious temples in Rome. We understand divinity. And this. This guy thinks he's. He's God or the son of God.
- [81:25]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [81:26]
Host
So I could almost see, like, an air of pompousness from them to say, like, ah, this guy. And which I. What part of me Kind of can rationalize that would kind of increase the desire for humiliation or the cruelty that they took out against him specifically.
- [81:41]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, I can see that, definitely. And in fact, related to your point, you know, Josephus records a moment where Roman soldiers at the temple, sometimes they would be on top of the colonnades because they were, you know, attached to a fortress there. One of them actually exposes himself to the crowd while they're, you know, there to worship. Right. And so there are examples of people in the Roman army in Judea just doing, you know, very, very disrespectful things and. Yeah, that might impact. Be their part of their motivation. Right, interesting. Yeah.
- [82:17]
Host
So where is the actual site of Christ's crucifixion? I've heard some, like, conflicting kind of things, but what is it? The Golgotha.
- [82:27]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [82:29]
Host
If I'm recalling that correctly, is that accepted amongst historians?
- [82:33]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, I mean, that name is accepted. Its exact location in, like, Jerusalem, I think, has been debated in part because I think where scholars typically place it as different from where pilgrimage traditions place it. Right. So people will, you know, for obvious reasons, will often go to Jerusalem on pilgrimage and want to, you know, be in places where Jesus spent. Right. His final time. Right in Jerusalem. And so I think most people would have just placed it right outside the city walls. And that's typically a normal place to have executions. And, you know, near the. Near the headquarters of Pilot. Right. Not very far away.
- [83:09]
Host
And crowds would have gathered to see these crucifixions.
- [83:12]
Dr. Andrade
There's nothing that would prevent them. Yeah. So conceivably, if that person's famous enough or, you know, if, you know, the scene of people suffering that way was something that. Right. They wanted to see.
- [83:27]
Host
Yeah, that makes sense. And so now when Christ is crucified, there's two other people that are crucified with him.
- [83:33]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [83:33]
Host
According to the. The gospel records.
- [83:35]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [83:35]
Host
One is a thief, if I'm recalling correctly. I forget who the other guy is. Do you know anything about these other two people that were crucified with Christ?
- [83:43]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, they're portrayed basically as both being the word that in Greek that appears is basically brigands, which sometimes gets translated as thief, like a bandit. So people who steal. But, you know, sometimes I think a harsher connotation of the word thief might be because sometimes we think thieves are pickpockets or something, as opposed to people who do like, you know, armed robbery. Right. They're more sort of on the armed robbery side of that spectrum. According to the wording of the Gospels.
- [84:13]
Host
Interesting. And I mean, it also seems stark that this type of cruel capital punishment would be taken out against these men as well.
- [84:21]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [84:22]
Host
I'm curious if that comes up in historical debates. You have this Christ who's potentially a threat to the power and political structure. It seems that I can rationalize and say, oh, I understand why the power structure would want to take him out in a very public way to send a message to anyone else that's interested in causing some type of rebellion. But these guys that are armed robbers, it's interesting that they also have received the same capital punishment, not just lashings or something like that. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on their punishment.
- [84:53]
Dr. Andrade
In a lot of scholarly reconstructions, that detail is actually quite important. It suggests that Jesus's criminal conviction is on par with whatever they were doing. Right. And for some scholars, that's a reason why they think that Jesus was convicted of some sort of seditionist behavior or even outright insurrection. There's been a recent revival of arguments that, you know, Jesus and his followers were armed insurrectionist, for example, I don't think that they had to go that far to be convicted of sedition because I think inciting a social disturbance, if they seem to be doing that in the minds of Roman authorities, that would be enough. But that detail is oftentimes very important. Right. For, for reconstructions and sometimes even when people challenge the Gospel narratives that Jesus was arrested of his purse, of his followers. Right. And. And executed by himself. Some people even hypothesize that they may have even affiliated with Jesus in some way. That's, you know, obviously, you know, one way to construe it. I'm not sure if I entirely agree with that, but yeah, the, the presence of brigands, bandits. Right. When he's executed is. Is often an important detail that people hone in on, and especially that Jesus was reportedly executed between them, which suggests that he did something worse, maybe. Or is some more important to be executed. Right.
- [86:19]
Host
Interesting.
- [86:20]
Dr. Andrade
And would.
- [86:21]
Host
Would bandits have been crucified, like in the, in the Roman Empire, in Judea? Like, would that, does that strike you as strange, or you think that's on par with, you know, the punishment of the time?
- [86:30]
Dr. Andrade
That's definitely strikes me as something that a Roman governor would do if apprehending. Yeah. Brigands or bandits.
- [86:36]
Host
Interesting.
- [86:36]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [86:37]
Host
Okay. Yeah. I'm curious what other crimes would have been like, is there historical literature on what other crimes would have been justified for crucifixion? Called for crucifixion, rather?
- [86:48]
Dr. Andrade
There are, in Some juridical texts, and they typically come a bit later. And if you also read Josephus, who was earlier, you know, sometimes his narratives, I think of a good indication of what people are doing that might end up getting crucified. Almost invariably in the source traditions, it's associated with civil disturbance of some sort.
- [87:10]
Host
So I guess if there's large scale banditry or armed robbery, that would be a social disturbance worthy of capital punishment.
- [87:17]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, in part because the way that the Roman authorities often thought about it is that, you know, if people are saying the countryside engaging in banditry or brigandage or however they want to classify it. Now, pertinent to your point or your earlier question about Galilee. Right. There are a lot of poor people and maybe they don't have other options, but that's not the way that the Romans, Roman authorities typically thought of it. They didn't really care why necessarily people were doing that, that they just actually thought about that sort of activity as, you know, one of the most debased forms of criminal behavior and warranting a very severe punishment, especially if it pacified things. Right. And so if, yeah, if you're involved in say brigandage, which, you know, in some interpretations might be a way to, you know, reallocate wealth. Right. In a society that's poor. Right. You know, Romans are just not thinking of it according to that perspective.
- [88:14]
Host
Oh, that's interesting. Now, which of Jesus followers have seen or saw the crucifixion? According to the gospel record?
- [88:23]
Dr. Andrade
Basically none of his immediate core followers. There are women. Right. Attached to his following that witness it. And intriguingly, they are depicted as, you know, more proximate to his execution and also his burial, intriguingly.
- [88:41]
Host
So do we know how long a victim of crucifixion would have been on the cross or would have been on display? Like, is that a matter of hours, is a matter of days? Is that sort of historically disputed?
- [88:55]
Dr. Andrade
I don't think that there's so much of a dispute as, you know, just variation in the decisions that governors can make. It could be a few hours, it could be longer. The councils indicate that pilot wasn't in a real hurry. Right. To have Jesus taken down. But you know, people wanted him buried before the Sabbath and, and, and made.
- [89:15]
Host
A formal request which was adhered to, that was accepted.
- [89:19]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. And, and in the gospels he honors it. And so they are able to take Jesus down later that day and have him buried or interred. I think what's happening here is that first century governors, they have a lot of, of person, say personal Discretion on how they handle things like this. And although there are certain rules that they sort of have to follow, if they don't want to expose themselves to being recalled or put on, like, crim charges for corruption or something like that, which for me would include, you know, acquitting someone publicly and then killing them, by and large, what's basically happening is that they have to make a lot of ad hoc decisions and, you know, they have their own council and they're interacting with people locally that have, you know, political and legal expertise in the region. You know, for pilot, that would have been the chief priest to probably a considerable extent. But what's happening is that they're confronted with the situation and relatively quickly they have to decide, okay, is this criminal or not? And they may not have clear statutes. Right. They have to kind of.
- [90:25]
Host
Yeah. Figure it out.
- [90:27]
Dr. Andrade
And then from there they have to figure out what is the appropriate punishment. And again, there probably is a lack of clarity there. Sometimes I think when people are engaging in something like armed insurrection, it probably makes it easier for them because they sort of know generally what kind of response that's supposed to elicit from Roman authorities. I think in grayer areas, there could be more variation.
- [90:49]
Host
When you say armed insurrection, as you had mentioned that a couple times, is there parts of the gospel that indicate that it was armed in some capacity?
- [90:58]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. In the Gospel of Luke. Right. Some of Jesus fathers appear to have swords when he's arrested. There's a, you know, the enslaved person of the chief priest getting his ear chopped off.
- [91:09]
Host
Oh, that's right.
- [91:10]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. And so what some people do there is they say, oh, Jesus's followers were armed. Maybe they weren't as peaceful as the gospels let on. And that's something that's, you know, you know, layered by, you know, the gospel authors at a later time.
- [91:26]
Host
Oh, that's right. Yeah. Who. Who got their. Their ear cut? Who was that?
- [91:31]
Dr. Andrade
The. An enslaved person of the chief priest.
- [91:34]
Host
And who had.
- [91:34]
Dr. Andrade
Who did it by the time you get to John? I think it's actually Peter. I don't remember if the followers named in, like, the earlier Synoptics.
- [91:43]
Host
So during the resistance of Christ's arrest.
- [91:45]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [91:46]
Host
That one of the actual people that are arresting him gets attacked.
- [91:50]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [91:51]
Host
Oh, wow. Yeah. I guess when I was reading about this and, you know, when I was younger, I never really put that together. Like, oh, yeah, he's getting arrested and his followers are, you know, attack the people arresting them.
- [92:00]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [92:00]
Host
Oh, wow.
- [92:01]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [92:02]
Host
That resistance is interesting. So I guess it's very easy for Them to say, oh, this is a political rebel who has an armed militia that's working, you know, together, basically.
- [92:11]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [92:12]
Host
Ah, that's interesting. Now, we talked a little bit earlier off air, the Holy Lance, the Roman soldier that actually stabs Christ in the side. This is a focal point of the Gospel. Water kind of comes out of the wound. I'm curious, how does that fit in with the story of crucifixion in the Roman Empire? Is that done as an act of pittance to sort of speed up or expedite the execution process? Or is that done to ensure that the job is carried through, that this is done to make sure that the person that is set to be killed is actually dead.
- [92:50]
Dr. Andrade
Right. I think it's done to make sure that before burial, the person who's been subjected to capital punishment. Yeah. Is deceased.
- [92:59]
Host
Interesting.
- [93:00]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [93:00]
Host
And now he's taken off the cross and received by Mary Magdalene, who is the actual people that receive Christ's body as he's sort of taken off the cross.
- [93:12]
Dr. Andrade
Right. There might be some variation in the Gospels that I'm not remembering very vividly, but Mary Magdalene is involved, I think, in the dominant traditions, maybe even his mother and someone called Joseph of Arimathea, who is one of the people that really ask. Right. For the body.
- [93:35]
Host
Now, some people have tried to sort of maybe revise the historical tradition and say that Christ never actually died. That the only way to have some trying to basically create some type of logical conclusion between the resurrected Christ and people reporting to see him alive. But also this crucifixion, that perhaps he didn't actually die, that his body was taken while he was still partially alive, he was revived and given medical aid, and then he was able to. To seem as though he resurrected.
- [94:08]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [94:09]
Host
Do you think there's any historical credence to that, or do you think the Romans satisfactorily executed him?
- [94:17]
Dr. Andrade
It's hard for me to imagine that sequence that you just shared, but I think it sometimes goes to show how often things happen, either in the Gospels or other ancient texts that are just so hard to explain in historical terms. I would never have a good answer for that, I don't think.
- [94:34]
Host
Right. But you do, I guess, from a historical perspective, suppose that the Roman soldiers would have carried out the crucifixion fully, that he would have actually died.
- [94:44]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [94:45]
Host
Right.
- [94:45]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [94:46]
Host
And then as far as a burial for someone charged with political insurrection or someone given the punishment of crucifixion, would being buried in a tomb be on par with other crucifixions of the time. Does that seem historically accurate to you or does that seem anomalous in some capacity?
- [95:04]
Dr. Andrade
I think that's in general accurate. And your question is one that actually has been asked quite a bit. Right. Is it plausible that someone convicted and, you know, killed in such an awful fashion, you know, but would have been restored to people who wanted to put them in a tomb? I think it depends on the judge and what they allow. But the basic narrative sequence in which people ask for Jesus's body and they bury it as they see fit, that's something that a governor can grant or a judge can grant. Right.
- [95:41]
Host
Now, I imagine that the Roman, I guess, stenographers of the time, the Roman courts, would have had a fairly. Again, I'm just assuming, I don't necessarily know, but based off what I understand of Roman history, that they would have had some type of record of the people that they had punished and for what reason, and that this would have gone into some type of library or filing system that then would probably be discussed with the Syrian governor or so forth. So I'm curious, are there any surviving non biblical accounts of a person named Christ that got crucified or were those lost? What do you make of that?
- [96:22]
Dr. Andrade
Right. Your instinct is definitely right that there's usually some sort of transcript at a trial. Intriguingly, in Egypt, sometimes those are unearthed because papyrus preserves much better. And from that we might extrapolate that there's a similar mechanism and even some effort to capture verbatim how people communicate. Unfortunately for us. Right. We don't have any of that material should it had been used. Right. Or produced at Jesus's trial. A big challenge, I think, in terms of other accounts of the crucifixion is that they typically are later derived from the Gospel. There's a very controversial passage from Josephus that seems to mention Jesus and how he died. But there's a big debate about whether that's a later Christian interpolation of some sort. Right. So in terms of finding that sort of corroboration for Jesus's trial and crucifixion specifically, it's a bit hard. Right. It's hard to find a separate tradition, you know, that isn't influenced by the Gospels or something like that.
- [97:31]
Host
I see, yeah. Now, after Christ's death, obviously he's buried according to Christian theology. He's then resurrected. Appears to very many people, appears to the disciples as well as to a crowd of, you know, four or five hundred people. Obviously this is difficult to, you know, historically corroborate this type of miraculous event. But I'm curious, curious, after that moment, the rest of the apostles, how quickly do they go on to spread Christianity? And when do the gospels of this event actually get written?
- [98:02]
Dr. Andrade
Right. Well, according to, you know, what we can reconstruct from, say, like, the letters of Paul and the Acts of the apostles, you know, pretty rapidly in my view. There's probably maybe some hiatus while Pilate's still governor, the weeds that we don't necessarily have to dive into. My thinking is that whose governor might matter. Right. But. But certainly shortly after Jesus's crucifixion, right, Some sort of movement starts and it's at least preaching locally or regionally in Judea before people start to, you know, preach elsewhere. You know, if we're thinking of, like, Paul, his earliest letter typically dated to around 50 his time in Damascus, you know, very famous, probably, you know, late 30s or so. That gives us a general chronology, I think, about, you know, when, you know, the word starts to spread, so to speak. So I think we can think of them as, yeah, starting a movement in the 30s and one that starts to work outside of. Of Judea by the late 30s and even the 40s.
- [99:18]
Host
Now, I think some people point to this and they say, oh, like these letters appearing many years or even decades after Christ's death kind of add sort of like an incredulity to the writings or they challenge the historicity of the event.
- [99:34]
Dr. Andrade
Right.
- [99:35]
Host
I've always kind of saw it as logical in some capacity that it, if Christ is killed as an insurrectionist or some type of political rebel against the Roman authorities as well as the high priests of the area, that many of his apostles would probably lay low and not necessarily want to have their name on anything directly acclaiming the words of Christ or what his message was, because they would likely befall a similar fate, which many of them later did. But. But I could see that as being a logical reason why you would kind of, you know, work in the fray a little bit. Is that reasonable?
- [100:16]
Dr. Andrade
I think especially during that initial moment, right. When Pilate's still governor, because if he's executed, right, Jesus, right. You could do the same to the other apostles. And there are hints that they're sort of lying low initially, but otherwise, I think what happens, in my view is that, that, you know, so many documents are produced in the ancient world that don't survive. And, you know, I know that there's long been a debate, and one that's been revived about the historicity of Jesus and, you know, what the Documents support. But when you think of most people from antiquity, even pretty famous ones, they often aren't really supported by the type of robust type of documentation that we might associate with, like, modern people. So the way I imagine it is that, you know, Paul's doing his thing, There are other followers doing their thing. They're exchanging letters to some degree, they're communicating. But how much of it can be expected to survive? Right. Or to be deemed important enough by, like, subsequent generations for it to be transmitted and copied? You know, so much of what survives to modern times from antiquity in terms of textual material, you know, it almost seems like it's luck. I mean, there's a logic to it. And there are certain texts that are prioritized and thus copied, but there are also many texts that were important in antiquity that barely survive at all.
- [101:45]
Host
Right. I could imagine many of, like, the banal tribunal records that may not have been seen as important to the early church, to the early apostles. Those things might not have been preserved in the same capacity. And that, you know, as we've seen from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library, like, these are texts that are seen as very important. So therefore, they're sort of kept away. And their discovery is, I mean, purely chance, it seems like, right, you have a shepherd boy that throws a rock and discovers thousands of fragments of ancient texts. So it's possible that there's texts that have not been discovered yet, and it's equally possible that many of those texts just sort of weathered away to time. Yeah, that's really interesting. Now, as far as the rest of Pilate's reign, do you think, or do you know if there's any historical record to support that? He sort of felt like, all right, I doled out the judgment, I appeased the high priests. You know, this rebellion that this guy was leading has sort of been quelled, and job well done. Or did he face any blowback in his lifetime for this act specifically?
- [102:48]
Dr. Andrade
Right. What happens to Pilate, intriguingly, is that, you know, in Josephus, there are different moments where he gets into confrontations with people in Jewish society and in one instance, actually even inflicts violence on people at Jerusalem that leads to people dying. I don't think there's ever any blowback in Jerusalem because I think typically when Pilate engages in repressive violence, it's against basically charismatic leaders whose following is confrontational of Roman authority or of the authority of chief priests. And I think that largely guides. Right. His decision making when it comes to violence. There are moments in which things couldn't. Gotten violent. Right. Where Pilate did something that Jews deemed sacrilegious and there's like a mass demonstration against what he's doing where he backs down. And I think to some degree, it's a matter of whether. Right. People who are engaging in that sort of confrontational behavior, whether they're like, aligned with the chief priest and are protesting something. Right. Wrong. That a Roman governor did, or whether they're led by a charismatic who operates outside of that hierarchy and is technically opposing. Right. The. The political, economic order. I think for the most part, when Pilate makes these decisions, they're decisions that don't really blow back on him until the end of his tenure, where he does end up massacring. Samaritans were doing some sort of march, and some apparently had weapons to mount Gerizim. And that's where Samaritans traditionally had their temple. They don't really worship at Jerusalem. They worship there, although their temple at that point had been destroyed.
- [104:38]
Host
What was the faith tradition of the Samaritans at that point?
- [104:40]
Dr. Andrade
They basically are Israelites. They think of themselves as Israelites, and to a considerable degree, they share a lot of the scriptural text with the Jews, and they thought of themselves as the descendants of the Northern kingdom of Israel. Real. But by that point, despite some of their many similarities with Jews. Right. Their sacred site is in a different place.
- [105:01]
Host
I see.
- [105:02]
Dr. Andrade
Right. And that's why when you read, like, the Gospels, there seems to be a sense of difference there. But yeah, they. They basically have their own religious elite, and they also have charismatic preachers, kind of like Jesus. And Pilate seems to have massacred someone who organized. Right. A following. And. And what happens after that is the leadership in Samaritan society, they don't really protest his violence in that instance, but they claim that that movement had happened because of something he had done. Either he had been too harsh in his policies, too repressive, too disrespectful.
- [105:42]
Host
There was a reactionary political force that he started. Yeah, interesting.
- [105:47]
Dr. Andrade
And because of that, they petitioned the governor in Syria, his superior barrier. And that governor sends him back to Rome.
- [105:54]
Host
Oh, wow.
- [105:55]
Dr. Andrade
And that's really the last we hear of him. Like, he's apparently about to be brought up on charges. There probably. There is probably some disruption because when he's heading back, the emperor Tiberius dies, as far as we can tell. But in, like, the sources we have for, like, the first century, that's really the last we hear of him. They're like later traditions Right. That he converts to Christianity. And there are various texts that might purport to be like either his testimony or his notes or, you know, lots about him. Yeah. In the apocryphal literature are typically deemed not to be very historical, but to fulfill a certain spiritual purpose.
- [106:30]
Host
What texts are those that have his conversion?
- [106:34]
Dr. Andrade
I wouldn't remember the titles offhand. I seem to recall that there's sort of an Acts of Pilate, for example, various things like that. Yeah. Because the apocryphal literature and Christianity is huge when you get to late antiquity. Right.
- [106:47]
Host
Oh, that's fascinating. So there's some. I've never heard that before, but there's some literature that suggests that he converted.
- [106:55]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah. Oh, that's fascinating for the book. I didn't really research it that closely because I just didn't think it would help for that particular book, what it was trying to do.
- [107:04]
Host
Sure.
- [107:05]
Dr. Andrade
So I wish I could say more with any great depth, but yeah, that literature does exist.
- [107:09]
Host
Oh, that's interesting. And would it likely have been the case that a Roman prefect, after their tenure would just kind of go and live in some coastal city in Italy and kind of retire, or would they try to strive for some other type of political position? Or is that case by case?
- [107:22]
Dr. Andrade
You know, it's probably to some degree case by case, but normally you would expect them to try to get another appointment. And intriguingly, Pilot and is non recorded.
- [107:28]
Host
Interesting.
- [107:29]
Dr. Andrade
Right. Which is strange because in spite of how things ended, he had apparently been prefect a long time, which usually means that at least for a duration of time, his activity was acceptable to, you know, people in Roman leadership positions. The Roman Emperor, governor of Syria, and also, presumably at the local level, you know, not so awful that he's generating more problems than he's resolving. So, you know, what happened with that final episode of the Samaritans must have been at least, you know, in my imagination, serious enough that he just never gets another appointment. Maybe he's convicted of something exiled. I can only speculate. Just we just don't really hear more.
- [108:11]
Host
Interesting is, is it likely that the Roman Emperor Tiberius or the Syrian governor would have ever heard about the crucifixion of Jesus?
- [108:19]
Dr. Andrade
They very well might not have. At least not the contemporary ones. Maybe later on as that movement takes shape and people are trying to figure.
- [108:26]
Host
Out who these, ostensibly Constantine heard about it, of course, but the ones at the time of the crucifixion, they probably didn't, I imagine.
- [108:36]
Dr. Andrade
No, just because, I mean, there were probably a lot of these, you know, sorts of executions done by various people of that authority. And so it's not really clear. And if they did hear about it, it's hard to say how much it would have really been right on. On their radar. So.
- [108:57]
Host
Interesting. Now, I'm curious about how Christianity spreads through, you know, from this point, spreads through the Roman Empire, then even into the East. And there's obviously a lot of historical literature about sort of that movement, but that might be a topic for a different episode. So I'm curious, is there anything from this specific moment, the crucifixion and trial of Christ, that we didn't touch on, that you found particularly interesting in your research?
- [109:25]
Dr. Andrade
I mean, I actually found it very challenging to trace that early movement in certain respects. And I found myself, while doing that research, thinking a lot about Paul and Damascus and. Right. How were there followers of Jesus there or people who believed he was Messiah or son of God. Right. And what that means.
- [109:43]
Host
I'm sorry, was there anything from the actual trial, though, that we didn't touch on so far that in your research you found particularly interesting or that you really tried to score in the book that you feel like more people should pay attention to?
- [109:56]
Dr. Andrade
Well, I think the main thing to pay attention to is really the agency of the Romans that can be reconstructed variously. But as we touched upon earlier. Right. Been a tradition of thinking of Pilate as someone who just really didn't want to kill Jesus at all, and the people who exercise their agency or people in Jewish society. I think that there are justifiable epistemological reasons to challenge that narrative. But I also think that when we're thinking about the trial, we have to think about that dimension of it, because I think it is plausible anyway, that identified Jesus as guilty of some sort of criminal behavior, rightly or wrongfully, that governed his decision making, and that for various reasons, the Gospels are shifting the agency to people other than Roman authority. And that decision has, you know, reverberated. Right. And, of course, world history, I think.
- [110:51]
Host
Interesting.
- [110:52]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [110:53]
Host
Now, just purely as like a thought experiment, if I could grant you a piece of historical documentation that doesn't exist, ostensibly, that you as a historian would love to get your hands on, specifically from the crucifixion of Christ, is there any one document that you would be like, oh, this would be the most amazing thing to look at from your perspective, what would be that one document that you would love to see?
- [111:21]
Dr. Andrade
Right. I think you actually asked about that document earlier. It really is a stenographer taking down what different people are Saying at that trial situation, I mean, a big challenge of the Gospels is, you know, we have a narrative from the perspective of the people that wrote the Gospels and of that particular movement that Jesus was so pivotal in starting. You know, and they ascribe motives to Pilate and they ascribe motives to the chief priests, but we don't get their own voices. Right. Maybe they thought of themselves as having totally different rationales from what the Gospels say. And maybe if we actually saw them, had a document in which they're actually talking to one another. Right. That's something I often wish that I had access to. I think when I was writing the book and always felt like there was probably so many serious things I'm missing or not getting access to just by not having it.
- [112:15]
Host
Right. Yeah. That's really interesting. And of the Gospels, I know you had mentioned Mark as being typically accepted by scholars as the most historically accurate. Accurate, but just broadly speaking, specifically the synoptic Gospels, do you find that those. Outside of obviously, the symbolic and sort of theological messages, do you find them, from a historical perspective, to be having great historical truth? Like, I know many people have disputed the truth of the Gospels. Many people think that these oral traditions get written down many years later, not even by the observers themselves. Do you find that challenging as a historian, or do you accept that these Synoptic Gospels are just generally telling a correct historical account?
- [112:58]
Dr. Andrade
I think from the Synoptics, I think you can get a good sense of speaking in generality, what Jesus was like. Right. What his message was, where, in a sense, he was kind of situating himself within Second Temple Judaic society and maybe in a sort of cosmic order, and how he was situating himself in relation to prior scriptural traditions. I think it's more challenging when we're talking about the specificity of an episode, did it happen or not? I think that just gets so, so hard. And I think, you know, that's evidenced by the fact that very often, just about any sequence from the Gospels, people have accepted their historicity or have dismissed it or have been agnostic about it. And. But I think that's also part of the fascination of the work. Right. You know, it is so challenging. Um, so in that sense, my approach has been to say, okay, there. There are certain things that are. That the Gospels capture about Jesus. There are also perhaps some anachronistic material, some interpretations that people will think of as maybe, like, more Christian than maybe accurate to, like, you know, Jesus's particular lifetime in Judea. But how you differentiate one from the other. Right. You know, that's why people debate, and I think that's why there's so much biblical scholarship. And, you know, it's part of the allure, but it's also, you know, part of that sort of aporia, the sense that there's such a lack of closure from a strictly historical perspective.
- [114:33]
Host
Right, right. Absolutely. Now, I love historical what ifs.
- [114:36]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [114:37]
Host
So just purely as Nate. Okay. Just a student of history, someone that loves to research this stuff, and, you know, I'm going to pull you outside of your historical scholarship here. This is not. Dr. Andrade, this is just n. Okay. Of course, if Christ had not been crucified, let's say he had gone to this trial and Pilate said, he's done no crime, release him. Or even if he said, all right, let's. He'll get some lashings, but then he'll be released, what do you think would have happened?
- [115:06]
Dr. Andrade
Oh, gosh.
- [115:09]
Host
If we had to speculate.
- [115:11]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah, if I had to speculate. I imagine him as. And this is just. Yeah. Nate's guesswork.
- [115:18]
Host
Yeah.
- [115:19]
Dr. Andrade
Maybe having something of a similar career arc as, well, John the Baptist, up to the point of his death, you know, maybe having that. That regional following, a popularity among certain, you know, people in Galilean society or Judea. Yeah. But maybe it doesn't become the same, you know, you know, religion that Christianity becomes. Right. You know, maybe he's another, you know, important voice in Second Temple Judaism and yeah, you know, he has a following in that context. But maybe. Yeah, maybe, you know, there aren't people around like, just as there are to my knowledge, many, many people who follow John the Baptist. Right. These days.
- [116:06]
Host
Do you think his death was inevitable, that based off of his message and the power structure of Judea, that he would have gone and continued to preach this message, and it potentially could have gotten more rebellious and that he would have then brought to a tribunal.
- [116:22]
Dr. Andrade
Again, that's a fascinating question. I think both scenarios are possible. Right. The way that I think about it, particularly in terms of his preaching in Judea as opposed to Galileo. Right. I really think that it's the message that raises concerns, but it's also where he is preaching it. Right, Right. The thing that, you know, puts him in the clutches of Pontius Pilate, is that he's saying the things that he's saying at the temple precinct at a time where there are tons of pilgrims, a place where. And at a time when historically. Right. Social disturbances occurred. If he's out somewhere, say, in the Judean desert and Doing this, does Pilate care? Does he pay attention? It's sort of an open question. Right. And that's why I don't really know the answer. Sometimes when I think of like, you know, the Qumran text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, in certain ways the message is somewhat similar. Right. There's a reign of God or a day of judgment that's being envisioned. There's a message that's actually know that pits the people at Qumran against like the chief priest against the relationship with the wealth that dominates in. In Judea, but they're not actually receiving, I think. Right. That same repression by Pontius Pilate in particular. And I think sometimes it's worth asking why. Right. If you're living in like your own community and you have this belief, but by and large, you know, you're not doing anything visibly destabilizing, maybe Pontius Pilate doesn't pay attention to you, but if you do it at the temple, he wants to pay a lot more attention.
- [118:04]
Host
Interesting.
- [118:04]
Dr. Andrade
Yeah.
- [118:05]
Host
Now, was there any word from Herod's son? What was his name again? Antipas Ontipas? Was there any word from him after the crucifixion of Christ? Was there any historical underpinnings to how he felt? Was he happy with this?
- [118:20]
Dr. Andrade
Right. Well, what's intriguing is that the Gospel of Luke, and only Luke has a moment where when Pilate's trying to get Jesus off his hands, he sends him to. Onto pause, who according to Luke, is actually in Jerusalem for Passover, which would make sense. And according to Luke, he doesn't see Jesus as guilty of anything and sends him back to. To Pilate. And Pilate then says, this man really is innocent. We, you know, not just Pilate, but onto Paul, see nothing wrong with him. And that's what makes Luke so interesting because Pilate is going on at length about Jesus's innocence in the eyes of Roman authorities other than him, but then him executed anyway, and in a way that doesn't always make sense. Right. You know, you don't usually acquit and then execute. That's not the pattern. So Luke has that tradition and people debate how, you know, whether that represents a separate tradition that Luke knew about that maybe is accurate or whether that tradition, you know, was inserted into the gospel narratives later doesn't appear in Mark Matthew, you know, for example. But we do know a bit about him otherwise from the 30s, because Josephus actually talks about how he has John the Baptist executed.
- [119:31]
Host
And what was his charge? John the Baptist?
- [119:35]
Dr. Andrade
Well, in the gospels or at Least Mark and Matthew. Right. John the Baptist had criticized Antipas marriage. And Josephus, he had been stoking some sort of seditionist activity that was the framing. And whether you harmonize them or whether you see them as saying different things is sort of, you know, in the eye of the beholder and that respect.
- [119:57]
Host
And how was John the Baptist killed again?
- [120:00]
Dr. Andrade
Antipas had him arrested and then had him executed. And Matthew and Mark, he's, you know, beheaded and, you know, because of a dance. Right, and what do you mean? Antipas had promised his stepdaughter that if she danced at a banquet, he would confer a request. And since John the Baptist, according to that gospel tradition, had criticized Antipas Mary marriage to his steps, his stepdaughter's mother, the mother was able to get the stepdaughter to request John's head on a platter.
- [120:36]
Host
Right.
- [120:36]
Dr. Andrade
And what's intriguing about that sequence is that, you know, that appears in Mark and Matthew. Luke doesn't say that. And, you know, Josephus doesn't say that either. And people have a hard time working it out, because in Josephus, if we had the map up and we don't have to pull it up again, but in Josephus, it's clear that when John is detained and executed, that it's basically in that area called Peria. Right. In Transjordan, not in Galilee. But Mark suggests that it happened in Galilee. So, you know, and from there, it's a big question, right? Do these details matter? Do they not? Do we reconcile them? Do we trust one right version more than the other? Yeah, but Antipause is around in the 30s, and then what happens is that he kind of fights in a legal war against another client of Rome and loses big time. And that seems to set him up for falling out of Rome's, you know, good graces, and he gets deposed and so on and so forth. But that's actually the context and more or less in which Paul is in Damascus and trying to evade Nabataean ethnarchs, according to his own testimony. It's actually in that political sequence.
- [121:46]
Host
Interesting. Well, that seems fascinating. I would love to talk about Paul and Thomas and a lot of these early disciples and how they go on to spread the message of Christ and what ends up happening to them. But we'll pick that up in another conversation. Dr. Andrade, thank you so much for sharing your work with us. This has been fascinating.
- [122:06]
Dr. Andrade
Thanks so much. This is a blast. I really appreciate it.
- [122:08]
Host
Absolutely. Let's do this again soon.
- [122:10]
Dr. Andrade
Excellent.
- [122:11]
Host
If you've made it to the end of this episode. You are clearly someone someone who understands that beneath every historical event lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered. You're the type of person who knows that real history is more fascinating than any fiction, and we deeply appreciate that about you. I'll be honest, that's exactly why I personally invite you to sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter that goes beyond the surface of historical events. We dive into the stories that textbooks never told you, the secrets that change, challenge the course of nations, and the forgotten tales that deserve to be remembered. Let's continue this journey of discovery together. Take the conversation from your headphones into your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History. Because every day holds a secret waiting to be revealed. Thank you for being part of our historical journey. We'll see you next time.