Camp Gagnon Podcast | Episode: Did The CIA Protect Epstein?

Host: Mark Gagnon | Guest: Andrew Bustamante (former CIA operative)

Date: September 2, 2025

Main Theme

A deep-dive, from ex-CIA operative Andrew Bustamante, into the Jeffrey Epstein case: why the infamous files haven’t been released, the likelihood of government agencies’ involvement, the logic of intelligence operations that appear to ‘protect’ criminals, and the uncomfortable realities of power, justice, amnesty, and how the intelligence community uses, or is shaped by, sociopathic tendencies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Real Reason Epstein's Files Aren't Released

• Core Argument: Bustamante argues that the most logical (and least conspiratorial) explanation is that Epstein was a confidential informant (CI) for the FBI, granted amnesty in exchange for information about wealthy people committing financial crimes.
  • [03:50] "What's far more probable is that he was an FBI source granted immunity in exchange for collecting... criminal intelligence about the people who are offshore." — Bustamante
• National Security Exception: The only files withheld are those that contain matters of national security—not necessarily international conspiracies but because leaking CIs undermines FBI operations.
  • [04:25] “The fact that they're not being released suggests… there is some sort of national security implication.” — Bustamante
• Impact & Logic: Revealing these files would harm US trust and could damage the economy or public faith if major politicians or elites were exposed.
  • [06:35] "It's way easier to just not release them and make a few people angry at the injustice rather than make everybody recognize how fucked up our government is." — Bustamante

2. Blackmail in Intelligence: Myths vs. Reality

• Hollywood Fallacy: Blackmail isn’t a first action—real pros (spies, criminals) use it as insurance, not a lever for day-to-day control.
  • [09:50] "Blackmail is not a first action. Blackmail is an insurance policy." — Bustamante
  • [10:40] "Once you try to blackmail...you erase the shadow of doubt. So there's no way they ever think maybe it's going to change. They’re like, I can never trust that person again."
• Long-term Control: Coercive blackmail destroys workable relationships and makes things unpredictable.

3. How & Why the U.S. Government Protects Informants

• Operational Tolerance: The justice system and law enforcement accept continued criminal activity (even child exploitation, in rare, horrific cases) to build a larger case against more dangerous criminal rings.
  • [20:48] "If they arrest just the guy in Atlanta, they no longer have access to the rest of the ring because he was their access point." — Bustamante
• Ethical Double Edge: Discusses the gruesome “trolley problem” of whether it’s justifiable to let some crimes (even horrific ones) continue to catch bigger fish.
  • [21:17] "It's a massive ethical trolley problem... contains the worst possible violation of humanity you could imagine." — Gagnon
  • [23:10] "The call is made like four steps up... It's not the field agent who makes the call." — Bustamante

4. Is Epstein Mossad or a Double Agent?

• Possibility vs. Probability: It's possible, but not probable. Occam’s Razor: simplest answer is FBI CI, not Mossad IQ operation.
  • [16:32] “Don't mistake possibility with probability... The simplest solution is that he's a criminal that FBI got onto.” — Bustamante
• Israel as “an exception”: Legal and intelligence ties between the US and Israel mean extradition and intelligence sharing are very tightly managed—used as reasons why travel between the two wasn’t evidence of espionage.

5. Political Theater & File Releases

• Campaign Promises vs. Reality: Politicians (incl. Trump) who vowed to release the files knew they wouldn’t, or only carefully redacted versions would be allowed.
  • [37:40] “He knows full well these files will never get released in totality.” — Gagnon
• Coordinated Messaging: Nominees and political surrogates switch from “release the files” to silence after being briefed on the real implications.
  • [34:24] “Once they're in, they get a detailed classified briefing...and specific direction from the person they're loyal to.” — Bustamante
• Public Outrage Will Fade: Public always forgets the emotional feeling, if not the historical fact.
  • [38:28] “People will forget... We'll remember, but forget how it feels.” — Bustamante

6. Institutional Logic: Utility over Morality

• Government Sees People as Statistics: Decision-making weighs societal stability and national interest over individual justice.
  • [32:55] "That's how the government is thinking. What's better for...stability, what's better for predictability, what's better for global superiority...”
• Classified Cover-ups are Easy: If truly damning documents ever did exist, they’d be easily destroyed ("burn bags") and never reach the public—no “smoking gun” is likely to ever surface.
  • [42:30] “Really damning classified documents can easily be destroyed.” — Bustamante

7. Talking about Informants, Power, and the Psychology of Clandestine Work

• FBI’s Incentive vs. CIA’s: CIA focuses on foreign intelligence; only FBI is incentivized to touch messy, politically embedded domestic cases.
• Sociopathy as a Useful Tool: Many intelligence professionals have antisocial personality traits; those who can survive and succeed long-term often have the ability to separate emotion from action, and the system is structured to benefit those who can keep that cold distance.
  • [116:46] "The official psychological term is...Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)... but we're on a spectrum." — Bustamante

8. Bustamante’s Book ‘Shadow Cell’ — A Fight with CIA for Truth

• Content & Controversy: The book, written with his wife (also ex-CIA), covers a modern intelligence operation involving a CIA mole, operational techniques never publicly described, and how terrorist tactics were reverse-engineered by the agency.
  • [57:46] “Three things CIA didn’t want disclosed: story of a CIA mole, detailed operation revealing surveillance and counter-surveillance, and we borrowed terrorist tactics.” — Bustamante
• Approval Battle: Full manuscript was initially classified; only after threatening a First Amendment lawsuit did the CIA relent.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [06:35] Bustamante:
  “It's way easier to just not release them and make a few people angry at the injustice rather than make everybody recognize how fucked up our government is.”

• [10:40] Bustamante:
  "Once you try to blackmail...you erase the shadow of doubt. So there's no way they ever think maybe it's going to change. They're like, I can never trust that person again."

• [23:10] Bustamante:
  "It's not the field agent who makes the call...That’s the real differentiator between someone who stays less than 10 years in a federal job and someone who gets the fuck out.”

• [32:55] Bustamante: "At the end of the day, I want to know what's best for the country moving forward... that's how the government is thinking."

• [38:28] Bustamante:
  "People will forget... We'll remember, but we'll forget how it feels. And the feeling is the part you have to be worried about."

• [42:30] Bustamante:
  "Really damning classified documents can easily be destroyed. When they're destroyed, they're dropped into a vat of liquid that dissolves paper so they can never be reconstructed ... they're gone forever.”

• [69:32] Bustamante:
  (on CIA memoirs) "I'm not popular and there's a reason I wasn't super successful there. The book is not about just how awesome my wife and I are. It's about the incredible people who came to support us through this operation, who did amazing things..."

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:10] Epstein files and political promises
• [03:50] FBI confidential informant explanation
• [09:50] Blackmail explained (myth vs. reality)
• [16:32] Mossad/double agent rumors
• [23:10] Federal agent ethical "trolley problems"
• [32:55] Why the president/White House may suppress explosive info
• [37:40] Trump’s campaign promises vs. operational reality
• [42:30] How classified documents are truly erased
• [44:53] Will Ghislaine Maxwell be pardoned?
• [57:46] What CIA wanted to censor from 'Shadow Cell'
• [69:32] Memoir purpose / real heroes of intelligence
• [116:46] Personality and psychological traits in CIA officers

Style, Tone, and Takeaways

• Tone: Rational, blunt, and sometimes callous—Bustamante provides a realpolitik view, unapologetically logical and emotionally detached, but not unsympathetic to public outrage or moral discomfort. Mark Gagnon offers the audience perspective: frustration, moral questioning, occasionally comic relief, and an earnest curiosity.
• Takeaways:
  • The Epstein files’ suppression is best explained not by grand foreign conspiracies, but by intelligence agencies protecting high-value informants and the national interest, however ugly that calculus may be.
  • The intelligence world values pragmatism over morality; justice for individual victims is subordinate to perceived stability and state power.
  • The highest echelons of intelligence and governance are shaped by, and serve, people who can handle those ethical gray areas—and those with sociopathic traits may thrive in such environments.
  • The public's attention and outrage, even over the worst scandals, will eventually fade—often managed by careful government messaging and procedural inertia.
  • Real transparency is difficult; explosive secrets can simply be destroyed. The fight for public truth (like Bustamante’s with 'Shadow Cell') is rare, protracted, and risky.

For more:

• Andrew Bustamante's book, Shadow Cell, releases Sept. 9, 2025.
• Listen to the full episode for further stories on cognitive psychology, intelligence tradecraft, and personal anecdotes on sociopathy, emotional memory, and government bureaucracy.

[End of Summary] If you want links to particular segments or key quotes, see timestamps above.