How Julian Dorey SURVIVED a CIA Torture Program

Summary

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Camp Gagnon Podcast Summary

Episode: How Julian Dorey SURVIVED a CIA Torture Program
Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: Julian Dorey
Release Date: November 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this gripping and darkly comedic episode, Mark Gagnon welcomes friend and podcaster Julian Dorey to recount his harrowing participation in a simulated CIA-style enhanced interrogation. Julian allowed himself to be waterboarded, hooded, and stress-tested by former CIA officer Andrew Bustamante and a team of military specialists, all for a documentary experiment. The conversation dives deep into the psychology of torture, the process of “breaking” someone, ethical questions around enhanced interrogation, and the surprisingly strong bonds formed through shared suffering.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Did This Happen? (02:17–08:11)

• The idea originated from a content brainstorm with documentarian Tommy G, inspired after the attempted Trump assassination. They wanted to simulate a military SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) school training where American POWs learn to survive enemy torture.
• Julian: “I’m just, like, walking through Hoboken... like, yeah, why not? Don’t think anything of it.” (11:02)
• Tommy G asked Julian to join partly due to nerves about “giving the keys to the kingdom” to a former CIA guy excited about the task.
• They pulled together a team including ex-CIA agent Andrew Bustamante and ex-Navy diver Trevor Fortner.

2. Setting the Scene: Preparation & Mind Games (14:30–26:33)

• Julian arrives in Milwaukee feeling sick from a gym bug, gets picked up in a nondescript van with “buckets and towels and masks” in the back—already unsettling.
• They rehearse the scenario, including a simulated abduction and interrogation in an “absolutely ominous” abandoned warehouse.
  • Julian: “You see an abandoned church pew, a chandelier that hasn’t had electricity since Vietnam, and a cross...” (24:41)
• The realism is ramped up by intentional psychological tricks: keeping the participants isolated and guessing with long meetings and ambiguous talk from the crew.
  • Julian: "After like 20 minutes, you’re like, what are they talking about back there? ...This is bad. Like, in my head, I was actually... I don’t know. You name the feeling, I probably had it." (28:20)
• Both begin to psych themselves out before anything starts.

3. The Simulated Abduction (31:28–38:46)

• Julian and Tommy are “kidnapped” on the street, physically subdued, hooded, and zip-tied.
• The reality of the situation sets in: “They slam your knees into the metal floor...That’s not a good first impression.” (33:07)
• The psychological tricks start early: “With a hood, you lose your sense of place—even if your feet aren’t tied, you feel like they are.” (38:44)

4. Interrogation Begins: Breaking Down the Mind (44:12–54:04)

• First round: stress positions, random slaps, unpredictable manhandling.
• Julian highlights the “helpless” feeling: “You don’t know what’s coming next. You are helpless the whole time.” (59:05)
• Notably, there are safe words (“cupcake” and “blueberry muffin”)—nothing like real torture scenarios, but egos and a sense of competition keep them from using them prematurely.
• Memorable Moment: The environment becomes deeply immersive—the sound of a freight train rattling through the building “like a horror movie.” (48:20)

5. Pushing Limits: Ice, Water, and the Science of Suffering (66:04–76:55)

• The interrogators use ice water, a fan, and soaked hoods to simulate extreme cold and waterboarding effects.
• Tommy is forced onto the ground, repeatedly doused, and left gasping: “His entire hood is soaked...Every breath you take, no matter or doesn’t matter, it comes back into your mouth and nose and it creates a sensation of you cannot breathe.” (71:01)
• The questions are trivial by design—“What’s 1 plus 2?”—but the point is to keep answering incorrectly to prolong the ordeal.
  • “The psychological trick: now you’re suffering, AND you’re inflicting suffering on your friend.” (72:42, Mark)

6. Julian’s Turn: From Ice Bath to Waterboarding (83:06–99:25)

• Julian is flipped onto a mat and subjected to ice, water, and a fan—as water pools beneath him, he experiences simulated drowning.
• Julian: “If I breathe, I’m drowning...All the ice tucked in...the fan is right on you...I had to hold my head up a quarter inch to breathe.” (85:31)
• Real panic sets in with the waterboarding simulation. The mask is soaked and tightened; water is poured over his face until, desperate for air, he gives up the answer.
  • “The more you fight, the harder you breathe—the more you demand, the more you want...guess what never changes? Your access.” (96:59, Andy/Andrew Bustamante)
• Julian describes giving the correct answer as “not dying for content.” (100:36)

7. Aftermath, Reflection & Ethics (102:16–134:10)

• Both guests experience “an insane rush”—adrenaline, competitiveness, and shared trauma.
• Julian: “11 out of 10 wouldn’t recommend, man. I’m retired.” (132:14)
• They discuss the real stakes: nothing can simulate what it means to have actual secrets worth dying for, or to experience threats to family.
  • “Everybody breaks. It’s just a matter of if you really have information, and you give it.” (124:32)
• Mark and Julian debate whether waterboarding is torture (“I would say waterboarding is a form of torture”—Julian, 111:53) and the utility—or lack thereof—of torture for reliable intelligence.
• Enhanced interrogation, they agree, is far more brutal and insidious than any simulation for content could be.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• Andrew Bustamante (in-character): “Gentlemen, you’re going to be in pain today. That pain is entirely up to you. It can stop at any time. All you have to do is answer the questions we give you and we’ll let you go.” (00:00)
• Julian Dorey: “You don’t know what’s coming next. You are helpless the whole time... Right now it’s fine, what’s in a minute?” (59:05)
• Mark Gagnon (on psychological tricks): “Hey, everything you do, someone else is now gonna suffer... Psychologically, it’s fucking with you.” (72:42)
• Julian (endurance mindset): “I cannot let Andy break me for clout. That can’t happen.” (30:00)
• On waterboarding:
  “It’s a rush... it’s not like, I’m not thinking, I can’t let Andy break me for clout. I’m actually in it... You don’t kill me, you’re gonna have to kill me on the next one.” (99:25)
• Aftermath, on ethics:
  “Everybody breaks. It’s a matter of if they really wanted to break someone... they just go really hard...some guys get this for weeks at a time... But everybody breaks.” (111:49)
• Conclusion:
  “Would you do it again?” — Mark
  “No, I’m good. 11 out of 10 wouldn’t recommend, man. I’m retired.” — Julian (132:14)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 02:17 | Intro to Julian & how the experiment came about | | 14:30 | Arriving in Milwaukee, the “van,” first red flags | | 24:41 | The abandoned warehouse, ominous setting | | 28:20 | Pre-interrogation psyche: “bad feeling builds” | | 31:28 | Simulated “abduction” of Julian | | 44:12 | First rounds of stress positions, slaps, mind games| | 59:05 | “Helplessness,” psychological effect of torture | | 66:04 | Water, ice, fan — physical and psychological | | 71:01 | Tommy’s hood soaked: simulated drowning | | 83:06 | Julian’s turn: “pulled down onto the mat” | | 96:59 | “The more you fight, the harder you breathe...” | | 100:36 | Waterboarding climax: “Washington D.C.—get it off!”| | 111:49 | “Everybody breaks” — real torture vs. simulation | | 124:32 | “If I really did have info, I feel like...I’d give it” | | 132:14 | Would Julian ever do it again? “No. Retired.” |

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Tone & Style

• The conversation flows between dark, intense, and irreverent; dark humor offsets the grim reality.
• Mark maintains a lively, bantering tone, punctuating with jokes about “clout” and “not dying for content.”
• Julian’s storytelling is vivid, honest, and self-deprecating, mixing technical details of the ordeal with reflections on ethics and the limits of human resolve.

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Final Thoughts

This unique episode is part cautionary tale, part gonzo journalism, and part philosophical rumination. Julian’s firsthand account provides both visceral detail and thoughtful reflection—highlighting just how terrifying and real the psychological effects of enhanced interrogation can be, even when you know you’re safe. Both host and guest ultimately agree: simulated or not, torture always leaves a mark, and the real thing is much worse than any “content” could hope to capture.

Transcript

[A]

Gentlemen, you're going to be in pain today. That pain is entirely up to you. It can stop at any time. All you have to do is answer the questions we give you, and we'll let you go.

[B]

This is Julian Dorey. He's a podcaster, a personal friend of mine, and one of the only people maybe ever who voluntarily got waterboarded and interrogated by the CIA. And today, he's breaking down what he learned about enhanced interrogation, what the CIA actually does, the science behind breaking someone's mind, and why he agreed to do it.

[A]

Like, I got a small taste what they do is significantly worse than that. At least some of those things on that enhanced interrogation list, they definitely went beyond otherwise. You don't destroy those tapes.

[B]

We also get into the ethics. Does waterboarding count as torture? The psychological tricks that interrogators will use, and what it's like having former CAA guys throw ice water on your face while you're blindfolded.

[A]

And immediately the water's filling up the mast. And you heard some of the sounds right there. I'm like. And then, like, Trevor's pulling me back when it ends, and I'm going like this and then bringing me back for. I'm like, like, breathing, like, down, but I can't really get air. It's like, just enough.

[B]

This one is a fascinating episode. Julian is a phenomenal storyteller and just a great guy, and what he's gone through with his friend Tommy G. Is truly crazy. Our friend Andrew Bustamante from the CIA literally interrogated him for a few hours, and he explains every last detail. So if you are a fan of CIA enhanced interrogation, and craz things to do with your friends, this is the episode for you. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp.

[A]

Hey, friends, it's Karamo, talk show host, life coach, and your next best friend. You just don't know it yet. I'm hosting a new podcast called started on WhatsApp brotherhoods. We're going around the world to explore male friendships and all the wins, challenges, and bonds that are made in WhatsApp group chats. And that's exactly where you can listen to it. Right in. The app is streaming on the official WhatsApp channel. Just open the app and go to the updates tab to start listening. While you're at it, message your best friend and make sure they listen, too. I'll see you there.

[B]

Julian Dorey. What's up, brother?

[A]

Marky Gags. It's good to see you again, my friend.

[B]

Thank you for joining me. I really Appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Thank you for coming all the way from J.

[A]

It's Jersey, but.

[B]

No, that's how you guys say it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's not. Not a long train commute, if you will.

[B]

Well, that's how Deef says. It's this whole Italian.

[A]

You know.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

I mean, Deef lives in Brooklyn now, so, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This was like a fucking walk for him. Yeah.

[B]

Wait. Oh, you're in Brooklyn now? Yeah. Oh, hell, yeah.

[A]

Dude. Right?

[B]

Dude, you're stealing from Brooklyn.

[A]

Well, technically, he was in Jersey when he started working with me and then went back.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. Okay, dude. Oh, yeah.

[A]

This is not. Why not? Tommy G. Right.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Yeah. We're still very guilty about that over here at Camp Productions.

[A]

Yeah. That was still the funniest fucking intro I've ever seen in my life. I'm like. Because I was looking through the feed at, like, where they got that picture, and I had used. I used to post screenshots from the episode when I would post the actual episode. And I did this every episode up until last September, when we filmed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For the six months after that episode came out. And you had to scroll down, literally six months, and scroll over one to find that shot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And every single post had pictures of, like, multiple pictures of me in it, too. Yeah. I was like, that was incredible effort to get it wrong.

[B]

Yeah. It's remarkable. For anyone that doesn't know, last time Julian came on this wonderful program, we did feature a video of him. And we're like, this is Julian Dorey. And then we showed a picture of Tommy G instead. It was. It was the wrong thing. And that's just because Christos is racist and he thinks all white people are the same.

[A]

I don't want to be a white guy.

[B]

I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. I did not do that intro.

[A]

Catch it.

[B]

See, there you go.

[A]

I am white.

[B]

So it always goes back around, dude. But speaking of you and Tommy G, I just watched a video of you getting interrogated.

[A]

Oh, you did?

[B]

That was kind of scary for a bunch of different reasons.

[A]

Why was it scary?

[B]

First off, it was scary because our dear friend Andrew Bustamante was doing it. Yeah. And I know Andrew. You know Andrew, he's the sweetest guy ever. He comes in. He's. He's asking about my family. He's talking about my kids. We're talking about, you know, geopolitics. It's just always a wonderful, cerebral conversation with a good pal. And then I saw him and I would leave pods with him and I'm like, dude, this guy really, like, what was he doing at the CIA? He was probably behind a computer, you know, looking at. Looking at numbers or something. There's no way it started there. But I was like, there's no way this guy has it in him to be just a dog, you know? And then I saw the. You're getting punched in the stomach, there's a bag on your head, you're getting the people's elbow off a turnbuckle. I was like, what the hell? And he's got that dude. He was like. He was like, Roman Reigns. He was like, yeah. It was insane.

[A]

Well, it was. Here's the thing, like, Tommy who, you know, one of my very close friends and literally, I think one of the best documentary filmmakers in the world, he has a job to do with every video he puts out once a week where he has to tell a story and get it down into 25 to 40 minutes, right? And he has to give the context, give the intro to provide the actual background information, do interviews on the ground, you know, cut to different things. But all the stories that he does up until this point, up until this point were basically him capturing things that already were happening on the ground. This was a simulated piece to where he wanted to put himself through something, capture that, react to it, and interview the people involved who have also done this stuff in real life to get an idea about the question of, like, whether or not the United States should have the capacity to torture for information. So it was. It was a wildly new concept for him to be trying. But to get what we did with all the other things, you have to fit into 40 minutes down into a 40 minute documentary is crazy. And so when we were actually doing it, now get to, like, what the whole context was of us even doing it. But when we were doing it, there were a few. I was very locked in because it's. It gets real in there. We'll talk about that. But, like, artistically, I was thinking about how this would go, and we were probably an hour into it, and I was like, this really needs to be like a three hour immersive, like. Yeah, documentary kind of thing, because people aren't going to understand, like, all the little things. Like, we had five different cameramen in there. They were unbelievable. They were everywhere. They had every angle covered.

[B]

Can we, can we pull up the video? Actually, Crisos, I think that'd be helpful for context.

[A]

They had every angle covered in fucking 4K. And I have all the raw footage, and it's just like, blew me away how well they captured this live because there's no fucking takes. Yeah, we just do the whole thing. There's no, like, cut, cut. All right, I need more. There's none of that.

[B]

If I was directing, that's what I would do. I'm sure you get fucking elbowed in the dick. And I'd be like, guys, can we. Yeah, the lighting boom, Mike fell into the frame. So we're going to redo that one. I mean, it's. How does this come up? So, first off, just Tommy G is an amazing documentarian. He's like, makes some of the sickest content, like everything from Crisos. We're going to get you a YouTube premium, okay? I want you to know that I.

[A]

Keep telling Dave the same thing now.

[B]

That Julian's here and we're actually making fucking cash, okay? Now that he's brought his mug on this beautiful screen, we're going to get views, baby. We're going to chip in. We're going to get you 1099amonth to get YouTube Premium.

[A]

But it's the best investment of all time, people. I'm not going to lie. Like, when I did it five, six years ago, I was like, where has this been all my life?

[B]

Oh, unlimited amazing content from a friend, Tommy G. For 10 bucks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So how does this come up? Does he call you and go, hey.

[A]

Do you have this? Here's. Here's what happened. So Tommy has been instrumental. Like, we hit it off right away when we became friends. And then he and I have both been, like, helping each other out wherever we can. And he's been instrumental in getting me some people on the show. And then I've helped him put together documentaries with cast of characters. So when Trump almost Got whacked in July 2024, he immediately called me up. He's like, I want to do a documentary on shite. So I'm like, okay, cool. And he goes, I need guys. So I said, this is also not.

[B]

What he sounds like.

[A]

I said, yeah, I do an exaggerated version. I do an exaggerated version mainly by.

[B]

The docs at 9pm they're like, all right, can we.

[A]

But he likes. I do it exaggerated, but he like the swallow, like, kind of. I'm. Hello, folks. I'm Tommy G. Right? And it's like this all shucks kind of guy. He's like, today I'm going to get shot in the hoods of St. Louis. This isn't real, but it is.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, Street, Mr. Beast. You know what I mean, Bro, Dude.

[A]

And it was. Oh, quick side context. At one point, once we wrapped the whole day, we had to do the disclaimer video where he sits down in a chair just in his hoodie and says, do not attempt any of this stuff at home. So this is a layup, right? And we have to do this. So the video is not, like, censored off of YouTube. And so we're like, all right, Andy, you just talk off camera to him and, like, ask him directly so that he can answer it. So Andy goes, tommy, would you recommend that anyone does this at home? And he goes, I don't. Anyone is as strong. And we're like, dude, how.

[B]

Why are you waffling on that one?

[A]

Three takes to do it. And I like, on the third take, I was like, cut. Just say, don't fucking do it.

[B]

Yeah, he doesn't work in absolutes.

[A]

He's like. He's like, okay, okay. But he's so about it. So he's like, I want to get this crew together to film this Trump documentary on, like, the butler thing. And so he said, I want a CIA guy, I want a Secret Service guy, and I want a sniper. And I'm like, I don't. I mean, Evie Pompous, I don't think would do it. She's the only Secret Service person I think I've ever known. And then I'm like, andy will definitely do it. And my guy, Danny hall, who's, you know, Green Beret, Silver Star Awardee, like, Savage. I'm like, he'll do it. So I call up Andy. He's like, I'm in. Call up Danny. He's in. They. Tommy gets a together. He puts them out there that weekend. This is like. I think they filmed it late July 2024. Like, it was right after.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And so he does it, and a day after they leave, he calls me saying, oh, it went great.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

It's coming out next week. Da, da, da. You know, he's like, I was talking with Andy, though, and we were talking about content ideas, and he had this idea about putting me through Sears School to comment on whether or not these things should be used in the context of, like, American prisoners of war or things like that. Seer school. Yeah. It's survival, escape, resistance and something. It's the equivalent of, like, you know, if you were captured by an enemy, here's how they might torture you. So he's saying, let's put you through it, because there's this whole argument that the United States has done this to, quote, unquote, terrorists in the past. So, like, should we do it or not? And you could make a documentary where you film it. Great idea. And Tommy's like, it's a great idea. And I'm like, yeah, it's a great idea. You should do it. He goes, yeah. Andy's, like, a little bit excited about this stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, oh. And he goes, yeah, I'm a little nervous about giving him the keys to the kingdom. So he's like, if I did this, would you come do it with me? And I'm just, like, walking through Hoboken at night while I'm on this call. I'm like, like, yeah, why not? Like, don't think anything of it. So a few months goes by, I don't hear nothing. And then in the winter, he's like, all right, we're gonna do it. Okay. So we're figuring out, like, all spring, trying to get the schedules lined up. And we figure out we're gonna do it in June, like a month or two before we figure out we're gonna do it in June. And Andy's gonna bring Trevor Fortner, who is an ex Navy dive team specialist who did, like, a lot of special operations missions, has trained people in this before. He's been personally waterboarded, like, for training exercises and stuff like that. And, you know, we'll film it out in Milwaukee, where Tommy lives. So I'm like, okay, bet. Don't really think about it again. Because, like, you know, in my head, I had this idea of just like, oh, it's sear school. Like, how bad could this get?

[B]

Yeah, you need a manager, dude. You need someone. You need just, like, a neurotic Jewish guy to be like, yeah, I just. I don't know if this is.

[A]

This is the best.

[B]

Where were you?

[A]

I didn't want to schlep all the way over there, but just maybe we should look into something different.

[B]

You need someone. You need, like, a motherly energy to be like, maybe. Maybe not this one, right? That's where you were supposed to be, dude. Come on.

[A]

I live day to day, you know? Like, it's about today. I'm not thinking about tomorrow. And, you know, so then it turns to. I think we were filming it on, like, June 12th. So it's like, June 10th, and I'm like, oh, I'm flying to Milwaukee tomorrow. And that was that. So I also. This is what sucked, bro. About a week before, five, six days before, my friend Brian Walks up to me in the gym, like, in the morning, dabs me up, like, you know, comes in, does, like the bear hug kind of thing. I'm like, where you been? I haven't seen you in a couple weeks. He's like, oh, bro, I've had, like, mono or something. Like, he said some shit. He's like, I've had a virus. My whole. My whole body was shut down and everything.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And I'm like, the. Did you just do.

[B]

You guys are mid makeout? He's like, yeah, by the way, can we. Can you tell me before we kiss?

[A]

I'm like, what the. So Saturday, I filmed two podcasts that. That was like Saturday, June 9th, I think. And it was Eric Zuligger and then Cat Schultz was in town. And so I'm getting sick throughout the day to the point I'm like, you know, like, choking. I'm like, oh, this is not good. I wake up Sunday, sick as a dog, and I'm like, I'm gonna kill Brian. I gotta fly to Milwaukee tomorrow. I gotta get Sears school. This is not good. So Monday, I, like, get up, I'm not feeling good. I take like a bunch of Tylenol, which now you know. Yeah, it's apparently not supposed to.

[B]

That's why, you know, all the numbers of your episodes, I guess. Too much Tylenol, you're turning a Rain Man.

[A]

They see the Metaphin and pill, or whatever the fuck it's called. But anyway, so I get on. I get on the flight and I'm just like, banged up, but I'm a little better than I was Sunday. So I get the Mucinex. Keegan, Tommy's guy, one of his guys, great dude on his team, hits me up, he's like, yo, is there anything you need? I'll get it before I pick you up. I was like. Normally I'd say no, but, like, yeah, here's Mucinex, sinus fluid. Like, all this. He picks all of it up. So I fly into Milwaukee at like 8:00 clock at night. I. I've never. I had been to Vegas once last summer. Other than that, I've. I've never been.

[B]

Those aren't the same. They're not even really close.

[A]

Just listen to me.

[B]

How are you gonna put that in there?

[A]

Deep style.

[B]

Yeah, I flew to Milwaukee. I went to Chipotle, actually, one time, which was. There's a Mexican guy that was similar, I guess.

[A]

Nah. So I point being like, I had really never been west of Pennsylvania except that time. Yeah, you've Been to California. I'd been. No, I've been all up and down the East Coast. I've been throughout Europe, but I just never went west. I never went west of, like, where I went to college. So.

[B]

You're a real Jersey mick, you know that? You're a real patty. I'm like, yeah, don't leave the east coast, okay? I get away from a slice of pizza, I can't risk it, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that would. That would be the guinea side of me. But that's neither here nor there anyway, over there, dude. So I'm like, all right. I fly into Milwaukee. I thought fucking two people lived here. Like, Milwaukee. Like, who the fuck lives in Milwaukee?

[B]

No, it's a real city.

[A]

No, no, that's what I mean. Like, there were buildings and shit. They were like 15 stories. Yeah. I thought it was like one of those empty Chinese cities they just built up and said, look at this. Keegan's like, no, there's people that live here.

[B]

Yeah, there's a whole basketball team.

[A]

This was the best part. He fucking. He's picking me up and Keegan's like. Like an unintentionally funny guy, but when you fly Into Milwaukee at 8 o' clock at night, this didn't help the reputation. There's no one at the airport. Yeah, yeah, it's fucking empty, which is great. I mean, it makes Atlantic City look crowded. And so I'm like, wow. And then I call Keegan. He's like, yeah, I'm pulling up right now. Fucking whips up in the van, which is, you know, the fucking van they're gonna kidnap in the next day. Yeah, it's like, I don't know, 25ft long, no windows anywhere. That's by design. There's only windows on the front where someone's driving. And I'm like, what the fuck? He goes, oh, yeah, I just rented the. Rented the van. I'm like, God damn it.

[B]

From a who? That's that guy.

[A]

That's what he said. He's like, I had to go. I put the. I put the suitcase in the back, and it's just flat, like, flapping around back there. And there's, like, buckets and. And towels and masks. And I'm like, keegan, where did you get the. He's like, dude, I went to, like, six different Walmarts. I thought I was going to get arrested. I'm like, you still might get arrested. So this, like, we're driving down the highway, and then all of a sudden, I'm like, Looking at this. But he's 87, 88, like, whipping in between lane. Just hear the bucket going, kia, boys. And I'm like. And I'm like, oh, I'm too sick for this. So I get to Tommy's house and he's like, all right, let's go for a walk. So we go for a walk. He lives in this nice neighborhood. We're going for, like a nice romantic late night walk. And he's like, have you looked up what they're going to do to us? And I was like, honestly, no.

[B]

You're like, I have syphilis.

[A]

I have. I'm like, I need to get back and go to bed. It's going to be fine. It's content time. Yeah, ye gonna be fine.

[B]

Yeah, they're not gonna go that hard.

[A]

That's exactly what I said. I'm like, they're not gonna go that hard. And he's like, bro, I was. I was on Wikipedia. There's, like, a lot of possibility. He's like, now Tommy G goes into places where he's gonna get shot.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He's straight. Actual gang members. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, this is the most fearless guy I know. And now I'm like, kind of looking at him like, what the are we doing? I'm like, just. I don't have time to think about this. He's probably. He's probably just like, psyching himself up. So I go back, I'm like. He goes, yo, Andy and Trevor are getting in from the airport. And now I'm like, fuck that. I'm going to bed. I need to sleep. So I wake up in the morning, I'm in one of the bedrooms upstairs. And then in the other bed is this Trevor guy, the Navy dive team guy who I've never met before. And, like, we both wake up at the same time. We're like, hey, how are you? Go downstairs, start, like, having coffee and stuff. He's like the sweetest guy ever. And I'm like, oh, no. Andy really fucked this up. Like, he brought like, a teddy bear with him. Who's gonna buy this? Like, this guy's like, the nicest guy ever. Andy comes down, starts making eggs. I'm like, all right. When we shipping out, they're like, you know, 7:45, 8:00', clock, whatever. So I say to Andy, I'm like, eddie, what do you think? Should I wear a hoodie? He's like. He just looks at Trevor and starts laughing. He goes, yeah, it's gonna get cold today. And I was just like, all right, bet. And I'm like, that's interesting. So I threw on a cutoff and a hoodie, and Tommy, me get in the car and we drive with these two motherfuckers to Milwaukee. Because he lives right outside the city now.

[B]

Up until this point, are you aware of what. What Bustamante is able to do? Are you aware of Andy's like, are you concerned about how he will be, or are you kind of like, oh, he'll be sort of like the way he always is?

[A]

When I got there, I'll explain that. When I got there, I started to be. I wasn't concerned because I was thinking, I know Andy's, like, done some. I know, like, he would go that far. But, like, I'm thinking, this is going to be like kid gloves. Like, we're YouTubers. It's the softest thing you can be now.

[B]

So I'm curious, because you're a confident guy. You're an athlete, Right. Like, I imagine there's a little part of you, because I feel the same way where I'm like, I can handle this. Yeah. I mean, like, of course I thought that.

[A]

Because I didn't think they were, like, gonna go that far. I was like, this isn't gonna be that.

[B]

So there's a little party that's like, your ego's involved and you're like, I'm not gonna break.

[A]

But ego wasn't there yet.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, that's coming.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, the ego comes in. Okay. Trust me.

[B]

Yeah. That's like the whole point. Right.

[A]

But, like, when Tommy had said that the night before, I was like, should I be this, like, you know, whatever.

[B]

Now, are you reading Tommy at this point? Is he seeming a little stressed?

[A]

Tommy seemed better in the morning.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. That was the other thing. Like, he's sitting up front. I'm sitting in the back with Trevor. Tommy's driving, Andy's in passenger seat. I'm like, they're gonna torture us in a half hour.

[B]

Get the fuck outta here.

[A]

So what we had decided to do, and by we, I mean Tommy, is rent out a warehouse, an abandoned warehouse in Milwaukee, which they also have those, apparently.

[B]

That's more obvious, right?

[A]

Yeah. And so we rented it out for two days, and the second day being the day we actually filmed. And we had agreed with the Milwaukee PD that we were going to get kidnapped off the streets of Milwaukee, a little bit away from there, and them not to do anything because it wasn't real. Like, they were told who everyone was, you know, liability waivers, all that.

[B]

Tommy's planning is really remarkable.

[A]

Oh, Tommy's planning is amazing. Unless he goes BASE jumping, then it's not amazing. We'll get to that. Yeah, there's some pending legal charges there. But anyway, so on this one he had all that set up and he was like, all right, we're going to go to the warehouse first just so like Andy and Trevor can get an idea of the surroundings and also train the guards and everything. And I'm like, oh, this is like the Stanford prison experiment shit. We're have guards. So we get there and the first thing this is, this is where it starts, Mark. This is where I start going. The first thing I see is Miguel, who's Tommy's long time, like editor extraordinaire, you know, genius for my money, like the best editor on YouTube. I love Miguel. Quiet, sweet kid, right? Miguel is in it. Like he's got a Yankee hat on low. Like he's Marty Scorsese in 1977. And like he's wearing the black director's clothes and he's like, like not on drugs, but almost that thing where you're like, oh, he's got something running through his veins today, right? And he's like, hey, Julian, how are you? Oh, he's ready to go. And so I introduced myself to the other guys. A couple of Tommy's best friends are there and they're gonna be some of the guards. And the one guy is like 5 11, completely shaved head, jacked goatee, you know, like ex military, psycho looking dude. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's. Yeah, he works. The other one is like his best friend from his whole life. And at the time, like, he was nice. So it's like, okay, that'll be fine. But we get in there and then Tommy has. He had a crew of five. So he had Miguel Keegan, Dre, who's a regular lead videographer for a lot of their content. And then he had Andrew as well there filming. And then he had one other guy. Like there were a couple guys coming out throughout the day and they were like switching out. So there were like five total and Jack was filming. Jack's his other editor with Miguel, who's also an amazing editor. And so we're all like kind of stand there and we walk through the. The opening of the, of this abandoned warehouse and it's a movie set, bro. Like, first of all, the outside. The outside. I literally called my agent afterwards and I'm like, yo, if you guys need a place to film, interior and exterior, like Russian mobsters people up or doing some crazy with a drill saw or something. I got the place for you. The outside of this place was just off the beaten path in Milwaukee. Like, if you look at a Google map of Milwaukee, it's like the city that actually has people in it. And then there's a bunch of like. There's like a surrounding reservoir of estuaries of a river that like, surrounds it and then runs off to some fucking river or like, I don't know. But there is an old 25 foot or 25 meter long drawbridge that's rusted that takes you basically out of the city from, like, civilization to no civilization. And you see this giant open pathway of a giant, like, warehouse that has a faded out old, like, brewery sign on it. It's six stories high, brick, probably 170 years old. And it's got the river wrapping around the building and there's like boats and literal fortress. Oh, it's a fortress. It's a fortress. I'm looking at this, I'm like, wow, this is like central casting.

[B]

Like a medieval crackhead lives in there.

[A]

So we get in. I'm like, how much did this cost? She's like 500 bucks. I'm like, wow.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Yeah, it was craz. This thing was like, I don't know, 12,000 square feet. Like, it was 16,000. Something crazy. It was like six floors. So we get in there, and the first floor. We know that's not where we're doing the stuff, but I just start walking through the first floor and there's like. It's. It's like there's nails on the ground, a musty smell. It looked like dirty Mike and the boys just over there last night. And then there's like an. There's an abandoned church pew. Like, I took a picture of it. It literally, like, had a cr. It was with a chandelier that definitely hasn't seen electricity since the Vietnam war ended above it. And then like a church pew that just had, like a cross on it. It's kind of ominous and not. Oh, dude, it was so ominous. Hold on. I have it.

[B]

It's not the scariest church pew we've ever seen.

[A]

It's. For me, it was up there. That's it. See the chandelier?

[B]

What is this?

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

No, this is not. This is like an altar.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It was like. I was like, is this, like, where they do it?

[B]

You know, they made a literal altar?

[A]

Yeah, but, like, I don't think. I don't Think for God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, this wasn't. This wasn't giving me like, you know, your soul is saved kind of vibes.

[B]

What is this?

[A]

I don't know. Maybe I'll give that to you, Christos, if you want it. Yeah. At the end, just remind me. But anyway, so I'm like. I'm just walking around, like. And Andy and Trevor start walking through the place, and this is where I first start to notice Trevor. It's almost like in real time, his face kind of had gone from.

[B]

Dead.

[A]

Dead eyes, bro. And Tommy, Tommy comes up to me, goes, yo, Travis, get really into it, bro. I'm like, yeah, he actually is. So they're like, we're gonna run upstairs to where it's gonna be for a second. And they say, you can come up with us because they hadn't set anything up yet. So we get up there, we're up there for two minutes. Tommy just goes through a couple camera things and then they're like, get the fuck out of here. We're gonna get it set up. So we go downstairs, they all come down a few minutes later, and they're like, all right, we all need to meet without you guys, something, you know, Sorry. They're have like a 15 minute meeting or whatever. Yeah. So they said the bat way. On the other side of the warehouse, through a few doors is like an old lobby area. It's like carpeted with some shitty bathroom. They're like, just shut the doors there. You two go back in there. So Tommy and I go back in there, five minutes later, the door opens and some lady with a Wisconsin accent walks up and goes, I am here to be the on site nurse. And I was like, oh, we have an on site nurse. I'm like, I forgot about that. Yeah, you're in the right place. So we're talking with her, and then after like 10 minutes, sweetest woman ever, too. I was like, oh, she has no idea.

[B]

You're like, while you're here, I have this cough kind of broom. Like, yeah, prescribe.

[A]

I'm like, down in Mucinex and shit, like, throwing it back. But I'm like, does this. I'm like, tommy, does this girl know what you got into? He's like, I mean, I said on the Instagram story, we're doing a sear school training. So I think so. I'm like, I don't know, bro. So we say to her, we're like, you should probably go back and meet with them. So go through the doors, they'll be right back there. So she does pro. Like, an hour goes by after that. They're still meeting. And. And, you know, Tommy and me, I posted some videos of it. Like, some of it was funny, but, like, Tommy's starting to get psyched out. And I'm getting psyched out, too, because I'm like, oh, like, this is after, like, 20 minutes. You're like, what are they talking about back there? Right? I know it don't take this long to set up cameras when you got that many guys. Like, I've been in the game long enough. Like, this is not that hard. And also, it's going to be moving cameras, so they're not necessarily having everything stationary at all times. So we're like, Tom, Tommy's like this. I don't know about this, man. So at some point, Dre walks in, walks through the door, because he's coming in there to go to the bathroom. And, you know, he's got, like, the directors, like, smock on and everything. Like, he's ready to go. Walks through a door, and he just looks at us, and he's like this cool. Like, cooliacan kind of. He's definitely not from Mexico, so I'm gonna get this wrong, but like a Kulia Khan kind of Mexican looking dude. Yeah, he just looks at us. He goes. And Tommy. Tommy goes, all right, Dre, I know you can't give me details, but on a scale of one to very, very bad, what are we looking at here? And Dre just fucking looks at him and then looks at me. He's like. He just starts breathing. No way.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He starts going like this.

[B]

Is this a part of it, you think? No. You don't think? They're like, hey, we're gonna put him in a room. Isolate them.

[A]

No, no, no, Mark. At this point, I was like, oh, this is bad. Like, in my head, I was actually. I don't know. You name the feeling. Like, I had it. I was like, oh, boy. So Tommy's just, like, looking at him, and he's just like. And then proceeds to, like, walk to the bathroom. And, like, I'm right here. Tommy's right here. And so he's walking the bathroom this way, and Tommy just kind of, like, follows him like this. The door shuts to the bathroom. There's like a pause, and he turns back around to me. He goes, oh, this is really, really bad. And. And I was like, might be. Yeah, Yeah. I. I don't know now.

[B]

And now you're in a tough spot, too, because you're like, okay, the ego party is like, I want through these guys. I can handle it. But then also, like, the other party is like, I can't pussy out, because then the video is. And there's all these people that are making this thing happen. Like, I can't just be like, all.

[A]

Right, I give up.

[B]

Like, you have to endure some of it.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, here's the thing. And people need to hear this part loud and clear. Before we go through any of this story, if you are actually kidnapped by someone who's going to torture you, you're fucked. There's no safe word. There's no getting out of it. You don't know in the back of your head that it's going to end at some point. As far as you know, you're not going to have fingernails, teeth, or a dick by the end of it. It. You have no idea. That is not the situation we were dealing with. I knew at any point we can say, stop, and it's over. Yeah, it's literally. All right, cut, cut, cut, cut. We're good, we're good, we're good. But to your point, there's two things that are coming in. Number one, we're entertainers. We need to do good content here. Otherwise, like Tommy's investment in this video. Yeah.

[B]

All $700.

[A]

Well, listen, the warehouse was cheap, but obviously there was a lot of other things going on here, so I'm like, that's number one. I flew all the way out here for this as well. Like, I got to do this right for him, and I know he's going to do well with it. Like, Tommy does crazy shit every single week. The second thing is, I cannot let Andy break me for clout. I was like, that. That can't happen. Like, he and I have a very good friendly rivalry. And I'm like, I need to figure this out today, whatever this is going to be, and just fucking roll with it. It. So they come back in. They literally met for. It was 75 to, like, 90 minutes. It was somewhere in there. They all come in, and Andy's like, all right, we're going to do the liability waiver videos. So we get up there first. It's Tommy and him, and he goes, I release all liability to the CIA guy and that bald guy back there. And then I get up there and I make a joke and do the same thing. And then they're like, all right, let's go. So here's the deal. You guys are going to get. Get kidnapped separately. You're not Going to know the second it's coming. But Julian, you're going to agree to it. Tommy, you're going to resist. Okay, so they're like, julian, you're going to go with Jack and you're going to pretend you're filming like a documentary feature for Tommy G. On the street of Milwaukee. And then we're going to come up, there's going to be four of us. We're going to say like something like, come with us. And you just don't try to punch us. You basically go like, oh, fuck. Because you're surrounded by four guys in real life, you might actually do that. Yeah. Because you're like, you immediately out of this.

[B]

Maybe I know a guy. Yeah, you settle this diplomatically, right?

[A]

And you're immediately like, I'm not overpowering all four of these. They're all huge too. Right?

[B]

But then there's some people that be like, no, fuck you, I'm not going down. And that was Tommy's. That was Tommy's assignment, right.

[A]

But Tommy also, they were doing it where it was like a sneak up attack. So it was. Whereas with me, it was going to be like they were going to something like pull up right next to me and immediately have four guys there. Like, like immediately.

[B]

More like an arrest.

[A]

Whereas with him, it was going to come out of nowhere, kidnapped. So I'm like, okay. And I guess they were gonna kidnap me first. I don't know if we really knew which was coming first, but we knew it was gonna happen. So I get out, they drop us off somewhere on the street. Well, first they drive us in a Hyundai in the truck or in the trunk. They're like, you might as well get used to it.

[B]

Get used to it.

[A]

So we're like, all right, it. So Tommy and me get out of the trunk. I get out first, and then they take him and he gets out somewhere else a few blocks away. This is in the middle of like, again, like a real city. And so I'm walking down the street and Jack's like, yeah, just. Just talk to the camera. I'm like, all right, let's do like a Kia Boys documentary or something. I'm like, I'm Julian Dory. I'm here in Milwaukee for my friend Tommy G. Doing a keyboard documentary. And then I see the van, like right there, pull into the spot. Four guys get out. And Trevor walks up to me that they surround me. Trevor walks up to me and goes, julian Dory. I'm like, yeah, I think I did a good job. I was like, you Sold it. I was just like. I'm like, just do less. So I'm like, like, yeah. And he's like, you need to come with us. I'm like, like something. Something simple like that. And then they get me in there, and, you know, I. You couldn't really see this on the camera, but they, like, slam your knees into the metal floor.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And I was like, oh, that's not a game. I'm like, they're not. That's not a good first impression.

[B]

Yeah, it's not for the cameras.

[A]

I'm just like, all right, I'll just say lawyer. I'm like, lawyer. And they're like, just. Just don't resist. I'm like, lawyer. And then, like, they get me down on the ground, they press my face in, they turn it like this into a stress position. And that's, like, the one that's. I have, like, an old loose disc in my neck. It never bothers me, ever. I can deadlift till the cows come home. Box. It doesn't bother me. But if you turn it in a certain direction just like that and provide force, it, like, bothers you.

[B]

Yeah. If you get in Terry of a CIA, all of a sudden, it starts.

[A]

Yeah, but. But, like, just the way, like, he turned it the most perfect way. I was like, God damn it. But it was. I didn't, like, move anything or anything like that. Yeah. I'm like, all right, it's fine.

[B]

What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I gotta tell you a story. Imagine you're sitting in your house. It's cold outside. It's. It's a little snowy. And you're like, man, I just want a panini. So you go and you order it, you know, from a. From doordash or something like that. And it never gets to you. You're looking at the app, you're like, dude, it's been four hours. Where's my panini? You're calling? No one answers. Well, this is a true story that happened. There was a woman, a client, that was working as a doordash driver, and she slipped and fell on an icy walkway outside of a Panera Bread in Fort Wayne, Indiana. She breaks her elbow, which leads to surgery and hardware having to get inserted into her arm. She can't work. And originally, you know, she sues Panera. And Panera's like, okay, we'll give you, like, 125,000. But then the good people over at Morgan and Morgan fought for her and got her the million Dollar verdict that she deserved.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

If you never heard of him, Morgan. Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. Yes. And they are that way for a reason. They've been fighting for the people for over 35 years. Now, I'll be honest. If I ordered, you know, a panini and the woman gets paid a million bucks because she slipped, I mean, it's a tragic thing to happen, of course, but I deserve a little bit of that. I, I should get a cut at least, right? I'm the one to order the panini. If I never ordered that panini, she never would have slipped, never got a million bucks, which obviously she deserves. You know what I mean? But next time she gets a million and million point one, I can get a cool a hundred thousand out of that. Regardless. All I'm saying is if you're ever injured and you are looking to get the money that you deserved, the compensation that is entitled to you from your injuries, Morgan and Morgan could be the way to go. Hiring the wrong law firm can be disastrous. I mean, you can be locked up and litigate, it's a nightmare. But hiring the right law firm could substantially increase your settlement. And with Morgan and Morgan, it's easy to get started. Their fee is $0 unless they win. That's right. Their fee is free. Unless they win your case, you don't pay zero. You pay zero cents. Unless they win your case. You can visit forthepeople.com gagnon g a g n o n that is f o r the people.com gagnon or dial pound law. That's pound 529 from your cell phone. That's for the people.com gagnon or click the link in the description below. And thank you so much to the good folks over at Morgan and Morgan for sponsoring this program and making this show possible. And with this paid advertisement, let's get back to the show. What's up beautiful people of America? I am on the road. That's right. I'm doing my hour of stand up comedy in many cities, some of which are near you. Going to Hoboken, Philadelphia, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Detroit and Chicago. You can get tickets at my website, www.markagnonlive.com. we also got the link in the description. I would love for you guys to come on out. I say what's up to everybody after the show if you want to come hang, have some laughs, grab a pick me, shake my hand and tell me some crazy story. I would love to see you guys there.

[A]

Can't wait.

[B]

Let's get Back to the show.

[A]

And so then they like had that one of the guards, like has his knee, like on your back. So it wasn't like a full shove in. It was like a half shove in, but you know what I mean? Like, it was, it was still like a little bit like. Okay. And they had, they masked me right before I went down. So they hooded me. It, it's, it was like a musty fucking almost like they left it in dust for a long time.

[B]

On purpose.

[A]

Yeah, I'm allergic to dust and I got like, I got cured of a lot of that. I take allergy shots like all the time, so I'm pretty good with it. But it wasn't again, bad first impression. Yeah.

[B]

It's also not a great thing for you to lead off with.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Is that one that's like dusty.

[A]

Yeah, that's where my Jewish uncle would not have been a help. You know, there's a lot of dust in here. Maybe cut the dust. So I don't see anything because I'm hooded. But when I was watching the tape later, Andy just had like the biggest smile on his face. He was like, oh, yes. Yeah. And it's just like. So then Trevor gets me down, then he gets out of the truck, like, looks around, shuts the door, and they have me miked right here. So I'm just like, well, this is a day ruiner. It's, I don't know, I kind of like that. I thought that was pretty good. But then they drive off and I don't know, maybe it was like 2 minutes, 5 minutes. Somewhere in there, I, I, they come to a slight stop and someone gets out and like someone else gets out and I'm like, all right, they got a guard with me but, and I'm zip tied in the back. I should have said that they zip tied. They didn't zip tie my feet yet. It was just my hands. Right. So my feet are loose, but they have my feet in that kind of position. Yeah. Which also you lose your, not that I knew this yet at this point, but you lose your sense of surroundings in a hood. So when even they do these little tactics, like they'll just cross your feet. They won't. Maybe at one point in the interrogation, they're not actually even going to zip tie it, which I feel like in a real interrogation they would even do that. But like they, they don't even have to in some ways because, because your feet stay in that cross position. Yeah. Like this.

[B]

I'm doing psychologically complicit for Some reason.

[A]

Yeah, because you think it's. You think they're bound, right? They're not. You know they're not, but you think they are. So like I'm. I'm in that and I'm just like, this sucks. So I move my neck a little bit and it's fine. I'm like, okay, all right, let's just not do that again. And then a little bit of time goes by after they stop and then I just hear. He's like, you, you, you, you, please. And. And it's like Tommy coming in like the feds call my lawyer, Don Mullen or whatever. And I'm just like. So I'm like, oh, well, we gotta entertain here. I can't see anything. You're not like, good on a mic when you're hooded and zip tied. Yeah.

[B]

You don't even know if the camera's on you.

[A]

I don't even know this. It sounds like.

[B]

So like timing your jokes is all off. You're like, dude, I'm fucking bombing over here.

[A]

It sounds way better later. It's still not like your timing's not amazing or anything, but. What. When? Anytime you said something throughout the day, you're like, God, that was just off. And then you watch it later and you're like, that wasn't that bad. It just. Everything feels off. Of course. Yeah. So Tommy gets slammed down next to me. Two guys go on top of him. Like, at some point I turned my head because you could kind of see out of the mass. So they left like one security guy in there. And then he comes in and they're all helping with that. So I like kind of turn my head, like towards him so I can see a little bit. And he's like, you. Who are you? What are you doing? And I was. And then at some point I'm like, all right, maybe I should say Tom. And he's like, who is that? Like, it's Julian. He's like. I'm like, what the did you do? And then it's just like a little back and forth. And the car whooshes off again when you watch the tape. And he's just smiling like this. Yeah, sociopath. So Andy starts whipping it around Milwaukee. Now I know know they dropped us off. Three minutes, two minutes. That. Three, three, four minutes from the. From the warehouse. I can remember the turns we made in the Hyundai and starts driving. And he would say like 10 minutes to stop to. Or 10 minutes to. To. To drop point. He would yell it out and like, you know, Tommy's like, resisting. So they're, like, hitting him. And. And so I made a conscious decision. I'm like, ooh, he's resisting. I'll stay compliant. Let's play off this. Let's see where this goes. That'll also probably get a little better for me, too. So I'm like. I feel like I'll let him be. This is. It's his channel.

[B]

Yeah, he's better for the role anyway. You know what I mean? I'm not really that kind of listen.

[A]

I'll be the Joe Pesci, you be De Niro. So I go very quiet, and I'm just listening. And, like, there were a few times I was trying not to laugh because it's funny, like, listening to him. And then, like, his lifelong best friend is pounding his head into the. Into the. Into the metal. And like, Tommy G is 0% body fat. He's jiu jitsu, like, well trained. He was a world class, borderline national champion collegiate wrestler.

[B]

Juiced, obviously on steroids. Yeah, no, zero, no, no, zero, bro. I'm starting the rumor right now.

[A]

He's not juiced at all.

[B]

But, like, people think I want steroids, so I have to always, you know, put other people.

[A]

They think you're really.

[B]

Yeah, dude, come on. A lot of people think that a lot, right? I mean, people that watch the show.

[A]

You're on steroids. Yes.

[B]

Do they comment every episode? Like, dude, Mark's obviously juicing. Come on, dude. Fucking. It's neither here nor there. But a lot of people say that. So I just throw that out there anyway.

[A]

But, you know, so he's like. He's having fun with it. Like, he's not. When they're slamming him down, he's not like, in pain or anything like that. Yeah, you can tell. Like, he's like, oh, this is kind of crazy. You know, like, he's. He's into it. So. So Andy keeps yawning. Then he would yell, like, five minutes out, and in my head I was running clicks. And it wasn't perfect. I wasn't counting to 60 because other things were going on. But I'm like, no, that was. I think we were just driving for like, eight minutes. He said 10 minutes. Like, you know, where I could see the times are different.

[B]

And that's a part of it again.

[A]

Yeah, they're with you.

[B]

They're trying to. With your sense of time.

[A]

Yes. So between the five minute and two minute, it was like a good seven minutes or something like that. And then at two minutes, it took at least another five and there was a point. A minute before we got there, he slammed on the brakes and our bodies went. And like, I can't remember if our heads hit the thing. If it did, it wasn't hard, but it was like, God damn it. And then I remember the garage, the little, like drop zone of the warehouse. It's like a single cell drop off garage that has the big wall on the back that then you step out of the back, like, right up onto it. And like, he maneuvered it in there. He didn't go like, too, too fast, but like, you could feel like the K turn, like back garage shut, and you're like, oh. So they move Tommy first. It's kind of leave me there, and no one's. I don't think anyone's on me. We can look at the tape, but I'm pretty sure I'm just like lying there zip tied. And he's like, resisting, but I can't really tell what he's doing. They take him somewhere, obviously. They take him around the corner at the time. I can't see anything. So then they're like, all right, get up. And again, I'm compliant. So I get up. They tell me, like, where to step up because I can't really see. And they have two guys on me, and they bring me around the corner and then they go, like, stand me in a corner outside the elevator shaft and, like, just have me look into the corner. Like, you know, regular little mind tricks. Tommy. They flatten out and put on the ground because he was resisting, and they like, slam him down, which definitely had to be, like, kind of painful. And so again, I'm like, just compliant now.

[B]

Again. Is there a safe word at this point?

[A]

Yes. His was blueberry muffin. Mine was cupcake.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

And if you said that at any point, you'd be done, right?

[A]

Even if I said, like, all right, stop. Like they were gonna stop, but, like, I guess for the content they were. It was like, what's the gayest word we could have for the out? So then they bring me in the elevator with him. They bring us up, up. And I'm in my. I have my cutoff on and my hoodie, and I'm compliant. I get in the chair, they zip tie me in the back, and then they zip tie my feet to the chair. They bring Tommy in, he's resisting. They immediately put him on his knees, cut off his shirt. It was like a off. And again. I can kind of see just enough through. Yeah, you can see me sitting there. I can See just enough through the hood with, like, dude, the lighting. They had one solo light right there, and then one floodlight in the back. Miguel lit the room so perfectly so I could see just enough to see. Oh, they're zipping. They're. They're, like, cutting this off. So they get him down to, like, his. His. His underwear, and that's it. And leave the hood on, obviously. Then they get him on, and I don't. I don't know how long I'd have to look at the raw tape. I don't know how long, like, the rounds were. It was going to be in rounds throughout the day, which we didn't know, but I can afterwards, obviously. I know. So I'll tell you how that worked in a minute. But, like. Like, they just start with us. I'm not saying anything. They would come up behind me, you know, push my head down, little things. Everything feels exaggerated so you're not in pain. Interesting. But, like, when they come. When a dude out of nowhere silently comes up behind you and goes like this, you're like, yeah.

[B]

You know, there's also, like, a little party that, like, if that just happened in the world, you'd be like, what the is that? And so everything in your brain is telling you, like, oh, like, stop it. Turn around. Push the guy, whatever, and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All getting stopped. So, like, your brain is just getting broken down, it seems like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just by the little thing.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. And you. You don't. It's weird. It's not a flinch mechanism. It's something else entirely. It's like the same family, but it's not like you're not like. It's. It's more like, what the. Like, yeah, you're like. I don't know, maybe like you're on drugs in a way, like, something similar. Obviously not the same thing, but obviously if you're.

[B]

If your sight is cut off, like, your air is a little bit cut off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, like, all of a sudden, your other senses are kind of compensating. Your senses you're normally using are completely reduced, so feel different.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Like, that seems completely logical.

[A]

Yes. So then eventually they get us in the seats, and everything gets quiet. And I can see, like, just enough make out that all the cameramen are, like, right there, and people are dead quiet. And this is where it got crazy, bro. There. I told you how perfect this place was as a setting. There's one thing that I didn't even know before we got in there, but we found out the railroad track for the city, the Old railroad track ran directly behind and around the building. So the second we sit down and get silent, it was like the scene in the Godfather. Like we're in the middle of this giant space. And then if you can picture it, you see where we're sitting right there to my right. So all the way back there, I'm sitting like this. To my right, it's just all darkness and open space. And then there's a stairway hatch. Looked like a horror movie movie, right? And then to my left there's the giant elevator hatch. And on the end there you can walk on either side of it and get to the other side and there's a bunch of blown out windows. And like they're cracked, they're musty. Like you can barely see through some of them. And they're like lit in different ways and the sun is coming from that angle. So in that back part there's natural light, but that's where the train track runs so that it gets quiet in there. We're sitting in the seats. Everyone is like in perfect quiet. And then you just hear and you hear like the windows suddenly like, like shaking and shit. And apparently Miguel was like, whoa. Everyone's talking. Like, I didn't see any of that. But he, he was like.

[B]

Because you guys had no idea.

[A]

There's no idea.

[B]

So now in your brain you're like, what the fuck?

[A]

I'm like, yeah, know again, that ego thought is there because it's like, I can't let Andy break me for clout. What the are we going to be doing? Yeah. Then where it got. It's a different feeling than being like scared because you know, it can stop at any point when you're scared of something. This is how I've like kind of rationalized it. When you're scared of something, it's the unknown of like, I don't know when this thing is going to end or how it's going to turn out. Yeah, yeah. This was much more of a helpless feeling. Like, oh, cuz I know I got to last a while, but I don't know what's coming and this might really suck. And where it really went from like an 8 to a 10 was once the train subsided and Andy opened his mouth. So like you've seen the first scene in Zero Dark Thirty with Jason Clark torturing the guy on the floor. And you know, when you lie, I hurt. You know, I heard and like, I like Jason Clark. He's a great actor. It's a great fucking movie. He did a great job. But like that's how you expect a torture guy to be, like, ah, screaming in your face. All right buddy, relax. When someone walks in and their vocal tone is like controlled, it's just he. Andy walked in, he goes something along the lines of it's been a while. But he was like, gentlemen, you're going to be in pain today day. But that pain can stop. You see that facial expression right there? A little psycho like that pain is entirely up to you. It can stop at any time. All you have to do is answer the questions we give you and we'll let you go. And it was just so like, oh.

[B]

No, control is scarier.

[A]

I know Andy so well because like, like I've known him for a lot of years. We've talked a lot on air, obviously we've talked a lot off air. He's a very complicated character. He's a dude who I still think is probably in CIA in some capacity. For sure. Tell him that all the time, you know, But I have a lot of empathy for who he is. Right. Which includes his flaws and, and he has some innate abilities through his own traumas of life to be able to flip a switch, which I have no doubt, obviously, in the things he was able to accomplish while at CIA. You know, I'm just saying, like he's saying, yeah, I left in 2014. Sure he did, pal. But anyway, you know, he's only like talking to top Fortune 100 companies through C suites to get him as clients for no reason at all. Right. He just, he just enjoys spying.

[B]

Anyway, after seeing this footage, I believe whatever he says, okay, whatever he wants me to think is what I think.

[A]

Yeah, but like I could hear that thing in his voice and I had heard it a handful of times. Like I remember when I did episode 107 with him and that was the second time we talked. It was back at my parents house end of June 2022. And there was a point like 40, 41 minutes in there we're talking about good versus bad, good versus evil, how nothing's 100%, nothing's 0%. And then we're going back and forth ironically about torture and whether or not we should do it it. And you can kind of see it on camera, but I don't think you could possibly appreciate it without having been there in the room with him, talking with him over whiskey about this. But this look went in his eyes that was just like think of a thousand yard stare that actually has an end point. And that end point is meant to inflict death just by the stair itself. That's what that was. And, like, I was going on and on about something because we were a little late it. And he's like, you talk about that terrorist. I've lived that. You talk about that dude who put a baby in a microwave just to watch it burn. I've seen that. And like, I was like, whoa, yeah.

[B]

You got it, dude.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like. I was like, please continue. That was a similar. That tonality. That octave was right where this was.

[B]

And you're remembering all this, and I'm.

[A]

Remembering that in the moment. And I'm like, oh, oh, oh. Okay. So Tommy, God bless him, entertainer. All right, about that life. Good, good friend. Well done. Tom. Tom is talking with him. And at this point, it is not voluntary for me to be compliant. I am now, you know that plan. I had to be compliant for, like, the entertainment value. I'm being compliant for survival. There's no, like. Like this. This is not like a difficult thing. I'm like, you know, he's already cut down to his underwear. Like, if I say one thing, what's. That's probably me next. What are they going to do to him while he's just skin out here in this cold, dirty warehouse with AIDS on the floor? Like, I don't know. So I'm just like, all right, let's just get through this day. So the whole first round, whatever it was 40 minutes, 50 minutes, something like that, they're just with us, right? So they're putting Tommy in, like, the transit position where they would put him. No, not yet. Christos, that's round two. Go back. Right there. Yeah, yeah, right there. That's good. So they would put him down in this transit position where you can see that his hands are basically all bound where his feet are. I don't want to move all this chair and fuck all this up, but I will say it's not comfortable. Yeah. We're going to do stress positions later, though, as it would turn out. This was. This was the one you could last the longest in. It's not comfortable. But you're like, if I needed to last an hour in this, I could. Which is a part of it, right?

[B]

Like, they want it to be endurable.

[A]

To an extent that's actually perfect. Christos, right there. So this is what they would do. They'd be talking with him. He'd be fucking with them. They just leave me zip tied at the feet regular and zip tied behind. And they would come up and, like, push my head back or like, that when I can't see it coming just randomly, randomly. And then at one point, fucking psycho Trevor dude, who. That's a perfect shot as well. The contrast right there. Incredible lighting. Miguel. Yeah, just shout out to Miguel for the lighting. But like, you know, he was so in it and scary and you could feel it. Like his breath was controlled, everything. So at some point he starts, like, he comes up behind me and I, you know, I have my finger, I'm zip tied, and he starts moving my fingers like this, like one by one. And in my head I'm going, oh, no, I didn't sign up to get my fingers broke. I needed those. No, no, no, no, no, don't break. But I'm not saying this, but in my head I'm like, no, no, don't break my mind. I'm compliant. Turns out he had wrapped the zip tie so tight. Now, I didn't care. I didn't. It seemed normal to me that he was. The blood wasn't getting to my hands. So he kept. He even called. I didn't even know this. He called the nurse over at one point and she was doing it and she was like, ah, he's good. Which I don't listen, where's his nurse? I don't know about that nurse. She said everything was good all day. It felt like it was a predetermined answer. But anyway, so he was like, okay. Like, he told me that later. I didn't know that at the time, but every time I'm like, oh, is he gonna do it this time? Like, I need that middle finger. I can't. I'm right handed. No, no. Friend's favorite.

[B]

Come on, you're gonna break two hearts.

[A]

So anyway, he doesn't break my fingers. And I'm being compliant. Tommy's not. And eventually they're like pushing him off the chair and whatever and, you know, putting them in a new position. And then they would, like, pull up my shirt and, like, slap me. It wasn't like, it sounds way worse. They had good mics. It sounds way worse on camera. What's bad about it is you don't know what's coming. So you're like, oh. But, like, it wasn't, like, painful. It was just like, yeah, like that. And when you're not. When I do it, I expect that. I know it is. When you're not doing. It's like a weird sensation. But I was so locked in that I'm just like, don't react to anything right. Which apparently he was, like, concerned. He told me after he's like, we like hit him and he wouldn't do anything. We're like, is he. Is he good? Like, is he. He got pulse. All right, he's good.

[B]

Now, in an actual scenario, the slaps would have been harder, I think.

[A]

So. Okay.

[B]

That's what I presume. Or like with like a little like, you know, baton or something to actually make you feel it, whatever.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I. I would say, I would say. Well, I mean, I've never been abducted, tortured by the CIA, but I gotta think if they're hitting you when you're not looking, it's a full blown. Like when your mom was really mad at you when you were nine and thought because you're a guy and she's a woman, it's okay.

[B]

Seems like very specific.

[A]

That much. Hey, listen, that's the Italian side. But like that, like they're definitely doing that. Yeah, guys, they were not doing that.

[B]

You said the, the DP was Miguel.

[A]

What was it? Name or Miguel. That's Tommy's aficionado head.

[B]

Could have helped you with the coloring here. You know what I mean? Like, you're a pale guy, but like.

[A]

This is like, it's very pasty. So here's the thing. And this was, it was crazy, cuz then I got tan like a week later. I'm like, God, I was a little late, right? But I'll show you a video. The lighting, the way they had the two lights was such that if you were on the left side, everything was like 58,5900 kelvin. Like pasty ass. What? White. But if you were on the right side. Okay, look at the lighting. Look.

[B]

A lot of explaining here.

[A]

See how, see how tan I am?

[B]

You're pretty pasty in this, dude. I'll be honest. You are white, bro.

[A]

I'm gonna give that. Because that's a lie. I look like.

[B]

No, no, this video is not gonna come through, but you are paste.

[A]

I'm not in that.

[B]

Oh my goodness. You are so pale. You're fully Irish. You're a hundred percent Irish. Dude, look at that. That I. Dude, should we. Can we lower the lights in here? We should lower the lights. I'm afraid he's gonna get sunburned.

[A]

For real, the lighting on.

[B]

We need to put sunscreen on him because I do think he's gonna get.

[A]

Burned five tints past that even still at this point.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Anyway, so the lighting's like. But look at how tan his head is right there. Yeah, but he's a tan guy. He's more to the right.

[B]

He's mowing.

[A]

He's hitting his head.

[B]

He's Polynesian.

[A]

See where the light's hitting his head? Or just off left, the center. So then it's tan on the right side.

[B]

Somehow you are a ghost. I'm just saying, it just weird that they did the coloring like that. I'm on your side. I'm on your side.

[A]

The left hand and the right hand of the guy behind me.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Tan out of the light. White in the light. See that?

[B]

I don't know, dude.

[A]

And he was a tan dude.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I'm. I'm getting attacked here. I don't like this.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

You just.

[B]

I'm saying he did you wrong in the coloring.

[A]

Okay. The coloring was fine.

[B]

Thank you, Chris.

[A]

The coloring.

[B]

We're going to lower the lights in here. That way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Feel comfortable?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Jesus Christ. But anyway, so, like, this. This was all, like, manageable. It's just like, you don't know what's coming next. So you are helpless the whole time. You're just like, all right. Right now. It's fine. What's in a minute? Yeah, but I'm not saying anything. And then at some point, like I said, they hit Tommy over, and he was. There's a video of it on Instagram where Andy just leans up to him because he's in transit, so he's not attached to the chair anymore. And Andy goes, are you still with us? And just goes like this. Like, lightly like this. And Tommy goes and flops like a fish. He's like, I'm still here. And then comes back up, and I'm just. This is the worst part. Like, I'm trying not to laugh. Yeah. Cuz like, he's funny, bro. Yeah. Like I said, you laugh, you're fucked. I'm. Oh, that's what I'm saying. I'm like, don't laugh. Don't let. Just think about. Think about something. Not funny.

[B]

But the way you describe Tommy is he just sounds like the Joker.

[A]

Like, yeah, yeah, you're not gonna break me. No, no, that. Like, Tommy is about it. So they do this for a while, and then they're like, all right, get him up. So they get us up and they take us back by where the windows are. Are. And then they take us to the windows. If you cut to the beginning, Christos, there's a shot of it in the intro. I don't think it really matters that much, but there's a shot of it in the intro where they pull our hoods up, and so they stick us down on two buckets and they take our hoods off. They leave us zip tied. And they're all standing back by the windows, the whole crew. There's two cameras going. And Andy and Trevor are there. And they're very serious, but they're not angry. They're like, okay, guys, we're off right now. So the point is, in each of these rounds, we're going to get your reaction afterwards, live in the moment so it can be realistic. We're going to ask you questions, we'll be nice to each other. And then when you guys are ready, we're going to go back into it. And we're like, okay. I realize when they take the hood off, like, you can see my face when they take it off for the first time. I was like. I was so Christos with the ads. I was so, like the reflection off your thighs. And like, Tommy's looking at me like this, and I'm just. And I'm just like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're asking. They start asking questions. And your voice is just low. So. Because they didn't play a lot of that interview, but your voice is low. And they would ask me a question, I'd be like, it was. It was really tiring like that. And I wasn't trying to talk low. I just was. I was like, oh, wow. So I thought about that. Cause I'm like, all right, next time I come back here, just like, whatever. I think if the decibels I think are at 18, they're really at like, like minus 27. Get that up to like 10.

[B]

Is that another psychological thing that they talk to you slowly and low to get you to, like, mirror?

[A]

I. You know, I don't want to say yes or no. I don't know. What I can tell you is that they wanted it to be, yeah, you can see me right there. That was right when they took the hood off for the first time. I was like, what the. And they. They wanted it to be, you know, actual real dialogue and answers, like, analytically of people who were in.

[B]

In it.

[A]

So we did that. Maybe it's like 5 minutes, 10 minutes, hard to say. Somewhere in there. And they're like, all right, you ready?

[B]

Like, yeah.

[A]

So they stick our hoods back on. They pick us up. They're like, get him back there. And they bring us back into the chairs. Tommy starts resisting right away to, like, undo his zip ties. So, like, like four guys go around him. He's like. And he would, like, resist like, while they're. I'm like, tom, dude, stop.

[B]

We get it, dude. I'm like.

[A]

I'm like, you know. You know, but it's like, they're. They're like, all right, secure, secure. All right, zip tie off. All right, zip tie, secure in the back. And they're, like, doing it, like, military style. I'm like, wow, they're really. They're not taking any chance. Oh, this was the best part. I forgot this. When we're in the room early, before this all starts, there's a video of this, of Tommy and. And I talking to each other. I can give it to you if you want, Christos. But it was when Dre came back there. He started rolling the camera after he got out of the bathroom, and Tommy's laying on the ground, and I'm talking to him, and he's like, yeah, I wanna figure out how to escape today. I feel like we could do it. And Dre starts rolling the camera, and I'm like, are you. Are you fucking stupid? We're not escaping. Do you see how many guys are out there? We're gonna be zip tied in, hooded. There's no escaping. And he's like, well, they don't know. I got a little shake with me, and he whips out, like, a nail. And I'm like, tom, you're gonna still have your friend. I'm like, tom, Tom, it's content, all right? Like, the guy's got a family. We can get out at any point. Like, you. You wouldn't have a nail when you go in. Why would you have a nail when you get. That would imply you knew you were getting abducted. Who the carries around a nail? He's like, well, what if I'm Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible and the Epstein files? I found him, and I'm just. And I'm like, so you'd have a. No, you'd have a Swiss army knife. You'd have a pocket knife. You'd have something normal that. He's like, well, you. You don't know what normal is. And I'm like, no, I'm telling you, that doesn't work. And he's like, all right, well, how about you keister this and we'll talk about it later? So he hands it to me, and I immediately chuck it back. I'm like, anyway, you're not going to have a nail going back there because you're not knowing that you're abducted. You just got to go with the flow. We're not escaping. Whatever. And he's like, oh, yeah, Brad Pitt. I'm like, it doesn't matter. This is not an act in that way. Like, it. Put it in your ass.

[B]

Put the nail in your ass.

[A]

There's no stunt doubles here, so. So anyway, that's on Cat. That was kind of funny.

[B]

I mean, that's also hilarious. If at some point, who's wanting to.

[A]

Get stabbed and he's like, what the.

[B]

Why is this a part of this for you? Where'd you get that from? He said, I got seven more in my ass.

[A]

Like, you made me bleed my own blood.

[B]

What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because you need help pitching your tents. Yes. And that's what we do over here at camp. Maybe you're, I don't know, in line, waiting for a concert somewhere, and you just need something to lean on, on May.

[A]

Who knows?

[B]

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[A]

So. So I'm just. While they're doing this, I'm thinking, like, this really thought, like, he might escape. We might. We might escape earlier. There's, like, four dudes holding him down just to do a zip tie. So they get him and then they slam his ass, like, on the hardwood floor. And this is not. I mean, hardwood floors aren't that comfortable. I slept on them before, you know, like, I Was an only child. You had to take what you could get. But, like, not like this one. This had. This had, I mean, a lot of soot. It had nails everywhere. It had splinters sticking up out of it. It was, like, uneven. Like. I mean, the Amish did not make this. It was not smooth at all. It was very. Yeah, it was. It was a poor job. But anyway, so he's down there and Andy. Yeah, you see, they. That was when he pushed him off the chair, I think. Yeah. So then they carry him over there, they slam him down, and Andy just. You hear like, buckets in the back. He's like slapping buckets. And he goes, I'd really like to get to lunch or some like that. And he starts walking the bucket forward. And he had a bag of ice. And so he. He takes the ice. He throws the bag of ice down, and then he takes the water that has ice in it and dumps it on Tommy. He's like. And. And this was the worst part. Like, when you're, as you'll see later, when you're reacting to things that are actually, like, happening, you let out like a guttural, primal sound. It's like if someone. If someone, like, does something painful to you as what happened later, I'm like. Or like. Like that. It's like, it's not planned. You're like, oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah, that was in me.

[A]

I was there. I was in there somewhere. That was not like a deadlift sound. That was like, you're getting dead lifted sound. So Tommy would react. And he's doing his guttural thing, but his gut. His guttural sound is. And I'm just like, oh, like he's.

[B]

A spider man journalist or something.

[A]

Like, like the water comes down, he's like.

[B]

Wait, can we get audio on this? I hope Tommy doesn't clip us, but let's see if we can get it.

[A]

So funny. Funny. So I'm like, oh, don't. Oh, they put the fan down too. And so I'm just like, don't laugh, don't laugh. And he keeps talking them. And so, like, most of that is cut from this because they, you know, as far as the actual documentary where we show things in this. 15 minutes of it is showing the stuff. We were doing this for six hours, right? So all the back and forth and dialogue build up. All that's coming. Cut. I'll show you the raw footage when you come over.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's. It's gnarly. So like, he's down there a while which, by the way, they lied to him about that. That was nasty.

[B]

Which. That is so interesting.

[A]

We're going to get to that later. He was, like, really broken up about that, too, because he's like, no way. He thought he felt like a. For a minute, and. And. And he was telling me, I'll get to that. But he was telling me later. I'm like, tom, no, you were down there for a long time. So anyway, they. They. They put him down there. They're dumping it on him like that. And I'm trying not to laugh. And he keeps talking him. And at one point, I'm like. I'm like, tom, you. You just. You just got it. And as I say, like, got it or something like that, I hear, whoa, bam. And. And I, like, unfazed. Like, I was phased, but I was just like, let it. You just gotta let it happen. I finished the line, and they were definitely back there, like, what the. Like, you're supposed to not finish the line. But I, like, finished the line, like, all right, let's not do that again. So then he wouldn't. What they were asking, by the way, for people is like, tommy called me when I was good and on the plane the day before, and he's like, all right, we got to come up with three secrets a piece they're trying to get out of us. So you think of, like, a cartel guy or something. So I think of these things, I'm like, this is, like, a little complicated because we're making it up. It's not real, but we're basing it off of real people. And so then when in the morning, Andy was like, we're not doing that. It's gonna be like, what's the capital of the United States? What's one plus one? Your job is to just give the wrong answer. Which, of course, when we first sat down and Andy started talking after he gave that initial speech that was creepy, he says to Tommy, he goes, so the only question I have for you, Tommy, and you can make this stop right now, is, what is one plus one? And Tommy's like, one plus one. He's like, yeah. He goes, two. Andy was unfazed, though. He didn't react. He was just like, one plus one. You say it's two. That's a very interesting answer. You know, I gotta know, though, what it was. One plus two. Three. That's what it was. He goes, so, what is one plus two? And I'm like. Tom's like, ah, four. I'm like, all right, that's Better.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

We're back on track. But there was a minute where Andy's like, wow, that was fast.

[B]

Don't commit a crime with Tommy G. Jesus Christ. He'll just act as.

[A]

So Andy keeps asking him these questions, questions. And Tommy's like five or best. Better yet, he's like you. Yeah, like. And he's zip tied fully, like ice. I pack on. Eventually they had an ice pack on his back. And here's the thing, people. This is what you can't really, especially from the documentary, what you can't really appreciate. Tommy, his entire hood is soaked.

[B]

Of course, you got water dumped all over.

[A]

Forget that it's cold water and ice water. And forget the fact that they're pushing all the ice up against him. That to filet them like a fish before you're going to grill it when you have a hood soaked. And I, of course, didn't Google any of this ahead of time. That would have been nice, scientifically speaking. Once it's soaked or even like damp, every breath you take, no matter or doesn't matter, it comes back into your mouth and nose and it creates a sensation of you cannot breathe. So they have Tommy. They would come up and turn his head in a stress position. He's lying in the water, like, trying to not drown in the little bit of seepage water right there. And he's. And I can. I haven't had any of this happen to me yet. So I'm like, holy. I hear him. And you just see, like, I can see just through the mass, you can see that the man is coming in and he's down there for a while. And they keep talking him. So I don't know how long this part, like, how long it took to get this part. But at one point, I feel Andy come over by me and I can't really see him, but because they have my head down like this, I'm like, yeah. He's like, all right, Tommy, what is the answer to one plus two? And he's like, seven. And then they take the. The water and dump it on me. And they're like, you hear that Your partner's going to start suffering now when you give a wrong answer. And I didn't say, like, Tom, keep. Just keep giving wrong answer. I'm like, tom's gangster. He's good. He's not going to give a right answer. We. We'll just. We'll let this keep going. It's fine. I'll start sharing the load here. Pause. But anyway, so, you know, then they would ask him. And then they'd slap me. And now the slots were a little harder. But again, like, to your question earlier, they would have been way harder if this were a real situation. I wouldn't even describe it as 50%.

[B]

But psychologically, what's interesting is that Tommy doesn't know how hard you're getting slapped. So the whole point is that, like, hey, everything you do, someone else is now gonna suffer, Right? So you're suffering and now you're inflicting suffering on someone else. Psychologically, it's fucking with you. And he doesn't know if you're getting the ship punched at it.

[A]

Like, he doesn't know. Well, he's also suffering a lot on the ground, which doesn't help. So there's simultaneously two things going on in his head.

[B]

Said or psychologically is just like, again, so interesting.

[A]

Yes. And they have the. They end up positioning the fan right behind him. That's me, that's later. But then a position in the fan right behind him. I was like, that's cold, bro. Like, pun intended. That's like, nasty. And so then they. They take the ice and they, like, sit it on my lap. That was fine. That shorts on. Like, that wasn't a big deal. So that bought some time because they're like, oh, that's something. It didn't feel like anything. Anything. But you can hear his breathing getting denser and denser and it's been a while. And so eventually I think they dumped on him again. And then you get like, you. They didn't have this in the documentary, but you can see it on tape. There was one close up shot. Jack had some unbelievable shots throughout the day, but he had a close up shot where you can just see it and it's like, there's not. There's no air in there. It's like, time to go. So Andy goes, tommy, what is one plus two? And you just hear Tommy go, one plus two it three.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then they're like, get him up, get him up, get him up. So they get him up. They like, they undo his. Undo a zip tie, whatever. And. And they're like, he's good, he's good. Oh, before all this, at one point in the middle, there was like, silence after they dumped on him. And then, like, you don't hear anything, but you just. It's like something like that. And you just hear like the nurse come over, like, and I see her, like bending down over his corpse and she like, does like a pulse thing and she goes, he's good.

[B]

Where did you go to school? Where did you learn this?

[A]

But anyway, so they get him back and the. Andy takes the ice pack and now pulls up my shirt and puts it in the back, which is kind of nice.

[B]

You have a sore back.

[A]

That's kind of. That's exactly what I was thinking. Because now I'm going to be back here for whatever, 10, 15 minutes, as it would turn out. Out. That wasn't so bad. So I'm just sitting here, just zip tied to the chair with the ice. I thought someone was there, but I'm pretty sure when I looked at the tapes because they moved all the cameras, that they literally left me there. There might have been one dude back there watching, but I, you know, I'm zip tied at the feet and the hands. Like, I'm not going. I'm not going anywhere. So unlike Tommy, there's. There's no escaping happening here. So they go back there. I can't hear anything. I. I like, can vaguely hear talking, but it's low. And then after whatever it was, 10, 15 minutes, I hear. And they all start walking back in. And I hear all the cameras getting set up. And that would throw you off. It's like Al Jazeera setting up for that, for the beheading. And I'm like, you know, I. I could just imagine, like, this is actually, like, kind of serious, but you're like, imagining some of these guys who have been captured.

[B]

Did you put yourself there? Were you like.

[A]

Like, I think I did that afterwards. I don't think I was doing that during, but, like, when I was thinking about this afterwards, I'm like, God, this could be so unnerving. Like you're about to have your head cut off for, you know, you know, Allah or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you just hear, like, all right, beep. Like. Like the beeps of the cameras and the movements of like, a tripod. Like it's a YouTube video. Like, that's got to be the most.

[B]

They stop it, you know?

[A]

Yeah. They're like, wait, I need. I need the 256. This is a 128.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, hold the knife. Yeah. And like, Jamal back there is like, all right, no problem. And then.

[B]

Yeah. And Osama, do the ad read. Come on, come on. Give a shout out to better help or whatever.

[A]

So. So anyway, so they all come in and then, I don't know, Tommy's there. Tommy's now there. And they were, dude, Andy, I saw this on the RAWS afterwards. He's finishing interviewing Tommy and he Got Tommy dejected because he lied to him and said Tommy was like, how long was I down there? He goes, three minutes. He's like, three minutes. He couldn't even believe he was down there. I went and looked at the tape. I called him, like, the next week. I'm like, dude, you're down there for 15 minutes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's like he lied to you on camera. Which I guess was to, like, with him. He's like, that's up.

[B]

But at this point, Tommy's out of the exercise.

[A]

He's out of the exercise. So.

[B]

So do you think the exercise is also over? Because you're like, all right, well, we did, you know, we got the information.

[A]

No, I'm like, I'm next. And I knew it because they. They left me there like this and they took him back. I'm like, well, this is not gonna happen.

[B]

Are you thinking it's gonna be a different thing than what he went through?

[A]

I think I was thinking I was just gonna have the same thing happen, and it was probably going to be the same ending at some point. It's like, all right, just don't let him break you for clout right away.

[B]

Because now you're also thinking about Tommy. Like, I gotta last longer than him.

[A]

I didn't know how long. Like, he got dumped on so many times. It was. It was more a matter of, like, this needs to happen multiple times. Yeah. If they're going to do the same exact thing. And then at some point when it feels like it's a similar time to what he had.

[B]

Will bail now, are you.

[A]

Do you meditate A little. I'm not great at it. I used to not be able to do it at all. I think you asked me that the last time I was here. I was like, I've never been able to do it. I do it a little bit now. I'll do it in between sets at the garage, the gym.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's when I meditate.

[B]

So now when you're in this situation, are you trying to put yourself into, like, a calm state? You're like, okay, let me lower my nervous system. Let me breathe.

[A]

Like, when I heard them coming back, there was a thought that was like, game on. Because again, I'm like, I just gotta let. It's probably. I'm thinking, all right, it's probably gonna be, like, the same thing. Maybe it's not. But I'm, like, telling myself, hoping, because now I at least know what to expect. It'd be the same thing. I'll. That seemed. It seemed like, it was about 15 minutes to me, which I turned out to be right about. I think it was like 13 or 14 minutes total that he was down there on the ground being dumped on. So I'm like, all right, let's try to last a similar time. Entertainment value. Get Miguel what he needs, and we'll get the out of here on this part. And God knows what they're going to do this afternoon, because we're like, we know this is going for like another three, four hours after this. So they come back and I hear them all coming back. And Andy, when they were interviewing Tommy, after the three minute lie, he was like, dejected because he felt like I only lasted three minutes. It's crazy. It's like someone saying, like, you couldn't get your dick up or something.

[B]

It's like someone saying, you only lasted three minutes.

[A]

Yeah, right. They're like, he's like. He lasted 11 seconds. It's like some hot chick. You're like, damn it. You know? But Andy's talking with him and he's on the bucket and he's like, a little dejected. I'm seeing this later on the footage. And Andy's like, when you break, it's compliant. When you give in, it's compliance. When you tell us what we want to hear, it's compliance. And Tommy's just like. And then he's like, why don't you come with me? Let's go see your friend Julian. And the camera turns off and Andy, dude took zero takes all day. He was. From the moment we started to the moment we ended, he never had a take. It was a. He was on for the full six, seven hours. Hours on. So as the camera beeps and Andy's starting to walk around, he goes, turn the camera back on. I want his reaction when he sees Julian. He's directing the thing. Psycho. Psycho, bro. So they get multiple angles on Tommy and it looks pretty badass because, like, Tommy's jacked, bro. So they're following him like bane with the light. Natural lighting coming in from by. It's not in the documentary. I'll show you later. But the natural lighting coming in. And they all come around. And then it like cuts. Jack cuts in the camera to me while they're all walking in. I'm just. You sitting there like an. Like this. But it's like they all get quiet and they all look around and they all start standing there like this. And then Andy walks around and then Jack gets the camera up. And this part now I remember he's Like, Julian, you haven't given us the correct answer to our questions yet today. And so he comes up behind me, and then Fortner comes up behind me, fucks with my head, like, puts it down, and he goes, you know, we can all make this stop. Obviously, you saw what just. Just heard what just happened to Tommy or something like that. So just answer my question and it'll all be over. And, you know, you can get comfortable. What is the capital of the United States? And I'm like this, in a hoodie. And I just immediately go, or before that, he said. He said. He said, you never answer our question. And they're pushing me down. I go, you never asked. And then. And I come back up and. And he goes, so, what is the capital of the United States? And I'm like, guadalajara. Just like. I was like, what's the most? And like, I don't know why that was in my head. I couldn't point the Guadalajara on the map. I know it's in, like, Costa Rica or some shit, whatever. Mexico, some cartels there. And so. And so he goes, that is not correct. What is the capital of the United States? And at this point, again, nothing feels like it's smooth. So I couldn't appreciate this till after, when I was watching it. You just see me because I'm in a hood. I can't really see him, but I'm sitting there like this. He goes, what is the capital of the United States? And there's like a pause, and I go, guadalajara. And nod like this, and then look back forward. I was like, that was pretty good. But then he's like, oh, God damn it. So they come down, he and Trevor, and the guards put me in transit position. Like, they had Tommy. Not for long. A minute, maybe. Something like that. Like, not even enough to say, like, wow, this is uncomfortable. It was just like, all right, what are they doing? And so Andy and Trevor kneel down behind me. This is about four minutes into them starting to work on me now. And again, nothing's really happened. I just haven't answered their questions. And it's whatever. And. And they. Andy goes, all right. I had heard something come behind me. And when I saw the tape later, he was pointing to the guards and going like this. And they brought a wrestling mat behind me. I didn't know what it was, but they leaned down next to my chair. And before. It's like, at the 27 minute mark. Christos, I think I want to say a little bit before that now, like, 25. A little bit before that. That 20, 23 and a half, maybe. Like, they, like, they lean over. They lean over my chair. And he goes, all right, one. It doesn't really matter.

[B]

One.

[A]

One more try. And they're. They're like, what is the capital of the United States? My hands are like this. Because I'm in transit now. And I'm down here. I'm like, well. And then he goes. And they flip me over onto. Onto the thing. Now, it wasn't, like, hard. They just flipped it over the chair, folded my. My zip tie somewhere. Broke. Broke. But like, you're like an infant. It's right there. Yeah. Can we come? Right there? Christos, you have. You're on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Press play. So it's not hard, right? Go right onto a map. But you feel like an infant. You're like. Because you don't know where anything is. You don't know.

[B]

You don't know that the mat's there.

[A]

You don't even know.

[B]

Yeah, but that's them being nice.

[A]

It was comfortable when I landed on it, but I'm like. I don't know where I am or what this is. Is this like a BDSM torture chamber? Like, I have no fucking idea. And so then Trevor gets down and he starts fucking with me. Me. Like, pause. But, like, gets on top. And then, you know, you see, they cross my legs like that, and they immediately pull up my whole shirt. They throw down the ice. And then they. They brisk. They started with water bottles or something. Like, he comes over and he goes. He goes, you know that 23% of countries around the world don't have workable drinking water? And I was like. I think he told me that once as he's dumping water on me and then starts. They. They dump the ice. They rip open the ice. They start filleting it down into me. And then they bring over the bucket, and they dump the bucket. And this is where I went, oh, fuck. Because when I got on, they started with the water bottle. There you see it? When I got on the mat, I was like, all right, great. I'm on a mat. And then once the bucket came down, they put the fan down. That's them putting the ice. I think they already put the bucket. How bad is that? The fan sucks, really? Because the fan. The fan basically cools everything. So you're already laying in ice. But what happened was there was nowhere for the water to escape. I'm on a mat. It's one of those folding wrestling mats.

[B]

So it's closed. Is that on purpose?

[A]

I guess, because it was like a trade off Tommy when he was on the ground. The hardwood floor is way more uncomfortable. Right. But the hardwood floor has some seepage. So you're, You're. You're not really laying in a post puddle.

[B]

This is just a small pool.

[A]

This becomes a pool. So they turn my head at first, like when he first got me down there. And then you see him dumping it directly on my hood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he dumped the water to make sure my hood was soaked. And then I realized my head is like this and I'm. Or yeah, it was like this at this point, and I'm in a quarter inch of water, and if I breathe, I'm drowning. It's like when you hear those stories about, like an Alzheimer's patient who drowns in a puddle because they fall and they don't know how to get up. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. My great grandfather died of that. So I was like, oh, I mean.

[B]

You only need like an inch of water to drown, right? Like if you can't move.

[A]

Yeah. Less. Yeah, it's. I would say it was probably. Well, if you're lying down in the indentation, maybe it's a half an inch.

[B]

And you got the mask on.

[A]

Right. And so you're breathing it into this part of your mouth. And so I have to hold my head up.

[B]

And your hands are still tied.

[A]

And your hands are zip tied in front of you. They're down here. And they have the ice tucked in up here. And they just poured water all around you. And now they're pushing all the ice into you.

[B]

You.

[A]

And then the fan is right on you. And then Trevor walks around. I feel him walking around the edge, comes back around, leans down, drinks the water, dumps a little on me, which was kind of cold. He was drinking the water. And then takes my head and does that thing again, turns it the other way in the stress position and pushes it down.

[B]

Now, you kept on saying stress position. I think most people can infer what this is, but could you give more context?

[A]

It's like, it's like. It's like this. So for me, it's extra stress just because of, like, what that position does when it has force on. On it.

[B]

And that's a declassified CIA tactic where they would basically put you into these stress positions to just make you stressed out.

[A]

Right. So he does that. And now I'm in the puddle. And you breathe in like this.

[B]

And you're feeling it.

[A]

And Andy goes like that. Put the. The initial part where they're Dumping and doing that. That's a full three minutes, right? So now I'm about seven minutes into this part.

[B]

And what are you thinking at this point? Are you like, okay, this is endurable. Like, I can. I.

[A]

For a period of time, I'm like, let's see. I was, like, competing with myself. I'm like, all right, let's see how long I can last with this. I don't know what the. Is coming. This is obviously a little different than Tommy. Maybe it'll be easier, you know, like, I'm on. I'm like, I'm on a mattress, but then I'm in the puddle. I'm like, maybe I would want the hardwood floor right now and suck on the knees. But, like, this sucks because I'm holding my head, like, a quarter inch off the mat to be able to breathe, which I don't even know. If Trevor knew I was doing that. He might have pushed it down if I did, but he can't really see, like, with the hood. And the hood is soaked, so they're. They rip off my shoes. They're all with me. And. And Andy goes, all right, you know, I'm gonna let you sit with that for a little bit. You can have some thoughts. Enjoy that nice cold water or whatever. And, you know, you just holler if you need me. And then he walks back. I don't know this, but he shows the time, like, to the camera guys and leaves, and they all just capture it. Cameras are rolling. It's capturing the whole thing, and it's a few minutes that they leave me there.

[B]

How long does it feel like? About the same time.

[A]

I'll tell you why I was almost dead right on all the time, because I had watched that bin Laden documentary, like, a couple weeks before, and Rob o' Neal talked about how the guy who, like, whacked bin Laden, he. He talked about how when they were flying to bin Laden's compound, you know, there was a period where they were going to be in Pakistani airspace, and they were afraid they were going to be shot down. Maybe it was like 120 minutes or something. So it was constant fear. And he decided, you know what? I don't want to sit with this. So I'm just going to count. I'm going to count. I'm going to keep counting, and we'll pass the time that way. And he started at 1 and just worked his way into the thousand. So I started counting in my head. Not out loud. I wasn't like, 1, 2, but in my head, I was like, 1, 2, 3. And so I could feel that he was. And I figured I was counting off tempo so it was going to be wrong, but I turned out to be like almost right. I could feel it was like whatever it was. I can't remember three or four minutes the first time before he comes back and he asked me, you know, he's like, not exactly a beach and seashells right there. And I'm like, wouldn't say so. And he's like, like, so couldn't see shells. I can't hear you through all your shaking. And I was like, wouldn't say so.

[B]

Oh, at this point you're shivering.

[A]

Oh, dude. Your whole, you can't control it. Your whole body. Once I was down, once they poured the initial stuff, you're like that the whole time. I don't know if you can see that enough. But like there's no controlling it. You.

[B]

Cuz you've been in an ice bath before.

[A]

Yeah, but like, does this compare?

[B]

How does it compare?

[A]

Compare? It's totally different because you're in soaked clothes, you're unaware of what's coming next. And in an ice bath, at least when I've gone in, you're fully submerged to your neck. So you're not as in touch with. If there is like shivering happening underneath there, what it is. But when you are a fish out of water, so to speak, and the water is just around you and the ice is around you and your body, your internal body temperature is sinking, you know, I didn't do any research on this before, so it's like in the moment. I'm like, that was dumb. But you know, you also didn't know.

[B]

You'Re going to be basically waterboarding, right?

[A]

So. Well, I still didn't know at this point. So I'm like shivering and it sucks. So he comes back and then we have that back and forth and he's like, what is the capital of the United States? I'm like, I already told you. He's like, all right, you can sit back more. So now he's getting frustrated and he waits. Whatever it was, I started counting again. He comes back, stands by me, and then he goes, every country has a capital, Julian. Every country has a capital. And I know you know the capital of the United States. You got that answer for me. And I'm lying there like this, I'm shivering my ass off. And I'm like, I thought it was, I thought it was Guadalajara. Or I'm like, what did I say first? I said, I don't know I've been telling you the answer. I thought it was Guadalhara or something. He goes, yeah, I know, I know, I know. But just tell me the answer. United States. And, you know, we can get you out of here. And I was like, this is where the timing was good. I was like, through the shivers, I'm like, well, obviously it's not Guadalajara. And you. I don't see this, but Andy's back. There is the one time all day where he's like, like, like, like kind of smiling. He's like, okay, go on. I'm like, so next best guess, Sioux City. And he's like, God damn it. He's like, I Admire your gumption, Mr. Doy. Oh, what I said to him first when he went down. But. But it wasn't. This was the funny part, when he knelt down and asked me the capital. And he's like, you've been. You give me the wrong answer. And I was like, well, I'm from New Jersey. And we're. I don't know, I thought it was quite a hard. That's exactly what I said. And he's. And he smiled. That was the first time he. I fucked that up. Sorry. That was the first time he smiled. And he goes, I'm not arguing with your opinions about being a resident of the state of New Jersey, but I just need to know the capital of Guadalajara. And that's when I said, like, well, obviously. Or the capital, America. Well, obviously it's not Guadalajara. Next best guess, Sioux City. So now he's like, pissed, and he leaves the room and goes. And, you know, I don't know he's doing this, but he goes. And he fills the bucket up with ice and water. Water. He comes back two minutes later and directs the guys. And they're like, all right, let's. Let's sit up. Let's sit up, Julian. Let's go to the next part. And just be careful with this poor shivering soul. Like, he would just make fun of me, like, every spot. So they bring me up and they have the one close up guy on me. I'm shaking like this. Like, literally like. Like this. They have me on my knees and I'm like, all right, well, I guess we're done with the laying down stuff. Like, what the fuck is next? Next? Now, I did know the way that they would, as I understand it, the way that they would waterboard terrorists is they would put a mask on their face, towel, whatever, some sort. They would have them bound, right? And they would lean them straight back 90 degrees and count to 10. They could only count to 10 if the CIA followed the rules while dumping the water on their face. Now, apparently, they did somewhat follow the rules with KSM because ksm, through his bound hands, used to count with his fingers. KSM is the guy who planned 9, 11. He used to count with his fingers and laugh because he knew they had to stop at 10. And then they bring you up and they let you breathe. So as it would turn out here, I wasn't going to get the 90 degree in your face, which is a torturous 10 seconds. I was going to get something that I would argue is at least slightly better. Better. But they were. They're not going to take off my mask, and they're going to tighten the mask so I stay drowning. And, you know, I'm in it. This is all stuff, like, later. I'm like, oh, that's why that sucks so bad. You know what I mean? So they lean me up, and I'm like. Like, Thief and me were watching it back, like, a few days later, and I'm just like, now I'm with him. Because now I'm like, I've lasted long enough. This can end any second. I'm good. Like, we got it. I feel like victory laps. Yeah. I'm like. I feel like it's. Tommy was a little longer than this. We got it. I feel like Miguel's got good enough content. So I'm like, all right. I don't know what they're going to do next. We'll just roll with the punches and call it a day. So he starts giving a speech, and he's like, have you ever heard the term waterboarding? And I'm sitting there shaking. I'm like, once or twice. And he goes, well, we are not going to waterboard yet. You, but we're gonna give you. And he picks up that. They were taking all the ice and shoving it in between my legs and my ass. So he picks up a big chunk of ice, walks around me like he was just feeling it, bro. Like, walks around me, goes, but we are gonna give you a parallel experience. And tosses it. Perfect shot. Right into my dick. Like, I. Like, now I'm sitting on a chunk of ice that day. I'm like, God damn it. Why is it. His aim's good and everything.

[B]

And the shrinkage is probably crazy, right?

[A]

The shrinkage is crazy. You're not even, like, concerned about that, but you're just like, right? And then he takes the buckets and he starts doing this in my face. And he's like, we're gonna give you something you're not gonna forget or something like that. And I'm like, huh? These are gonna waterboard me. He just said he was giving me a parallel experience. Why is he. What's he doing with the buckets? So they're like. He keeps giving me a speech, and he's like, God, it was so sinister. The one guy, like, had a trailer of it. He's like, like, when. When you lied, it was like. It was like straight out of a movie. I'm like, did you practice this in the mirror? Have the. I definitely. Yeah, I have the. Hold on. I got to pull this up. Because it was so sinister, like, how he did it. That was the. Here it is. I got it. We off now. The harder you breathe. The harder you breathe, the more your body oxygen. The more that your body demands oxygen, the faster your heart rate increases, the more your blood pressure increases, the more you demand. Guess what never changes? Your access. Do you know what the capital is for the United States? He's saying, bro. Like, it. Like, I. I picture, like, Jay Z back there. Like, yo, that's.

[B]

That's slow.

[A]

That's slow.

[B]

Yo, cut that up.

[A]

The more. The more you. The more you fight, the harder you breathe, the harder you breathe. I'm like, like, how much? Many. That was the other thing that was occurring to me. Like, it occurred to me the first time he opened his mouth that day. And then as the day went on, I was like, how many times did he do this?

[B]

Yeah, this is not the first time he said that.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I. I knew he had probably been around one of these mouths like, once or twice. And then I was, like, rethinking him. Like, I feel like he has something.

[B]

He got those lines pretty good.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so that line came in between what would be like, the two waterboarding things. So he's like, all right, all right, all right. Lean his. Tilt his head forward, sir. After, he's, like, talking to me before that. And he comes up behind me, and they have my head tilted forward like this. Now, Trevor has put a zip tie on the back of my mask so that he can tighten it like a. Like a vice like that, so that you're totally like. Like a plastic bag over your face, except it's soaked with water, Right. And so he leans me down, and now it's, like, real, because again, I'm like, I'm gonna give up at any point here, but we can last. But, like, I'm in it. It's not like, I'm not, like, at this point, thinking, I can't let Andy break me for clout or something. I'm, like, actually in it. And, like, he leans. He leans me down. And. And. And before he starts, he's like, you know, Tommy's over here. He's nice and comfortable. He's got a towel. He's warm. I bet that would feel good. And Trevor's been me. So I'm like, that feels great. And then he's like, all right, tilt his head forward. Leans my head forward. And I'm like. Like, this puts me down. He starts dumping the water for about six to eight seconds. And immediately the water's filling up the mass. There's already. It's already soaked, so I already could barely breathe, and now there's nothing. And I'm like. And you heard some of, like, the sounds right there. I'm like. And then, like, Trevor's pulling me back when it ends, and I'm going like this. And then bringing me back for him, like. Like, breathing, like, down, but I can't really get air. It's like, just enough that, like, I'm good, but it's like. It's a. It's a rush. That's what's so weird about it. It's like a rush because now you're like, I can take it again. Let's go. Like, there's no. There's no thought. It's like, you didn't kill me. You're gonna have to kill me on the next one. Yeah, but, like, you're trying to also recenter yourself because you're not moving. You're shaking, like, a little bit. And it's also content. And you still know that in the back of your head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you have just loud enough of a voice to be like, you're not. You're not. You're not giving up right here. And so that's when Andy starts walking away to refill the water. He's like, the harder you breathe, the harder. And does the whole thing. While he's refilling the water and Trevor's with me, he starts. This is the other thing. Trevor would, like, hold my head back and literally hold my nose and my mouth so I can't even breathe in the water. And I. And. And, like, right before they come to do the second one, I'm like. And he pulls me out. There's no breathing. And then he leans me forward. They dump water on me for eight seconds. He pulls the vice in the back to, like, yank me back and what was crazy is it felt like I just kind of stayed still and was like, ah, fuck. Can't. Can't move, can't breathe. Whatever, whatever. But my whole body, like, contorted up because I was, like, trying to fight debris. So I was like, like, shaking around like that. And then I get to the top, and you can hear, like. And he's like, what's the capital? United States. I'm like, Washington D.C. get it off. Yank it off. And immediately.

[B]

You good?

[A]

You good? And I was like, I look up, up, and all the guys are right there, all the cameramen, and they're looking at me like it's a South park episode. Like. And I'm just. And I'm like, whoa, that was crazy. And I'm like, I'm not dying for this. And none of them laugh except Tommy. Tommy in the back goes, yeah. Like, starts cracking up because he's like, holy, that's wild. And I. And then I was just like. Like, I let out, like, oh, like, holy. And they got me up, and I was just. It was. It was a crazy feeling. You were like, wow, something. I don't know what that is. I'm have to watch that back on tape, but I feel like that went to 60%. You know, it definitely didn't go to 100. Like, they would really do it, but, you know, I'll take 60. Like, that's. That's pretty good. And they bring me back to the bucket, and they were like, dude, they were so serious about it at the time. They were like, you good? You good? Like, holy. And everyone comes back and sets up the cameras, and they're like, yo, get his hoodie off. So they, like, I put this up on my Instagram. But, like, they. You know, they're like, checking my shoulder, like. And then I take my hoodie off, and my. And my cutoff is soaked. I'm like, just. Just leave it. My cutoff is completely. It's just a pool. My pants are a pool. And so I sit down on the bucket, and we start. I start getting interviewed, and. And Andy comes back, goes, how would you describe that? I was like, dude, that was a rush. And within about two minutes, I start to notice how much you're shaking. I'm like, it got worse. Like, it didn't start that way. When I sat down, the adrenaline was keeping me not shaking. And then once I calmed down in the seat, my body is just kind of couldn't. And they were getting shots from the side, like, video of you shaking in.

[B]

This is Insane.

[A]

Yeah, it was nuts. So I was like. And at the time, I was like, you know, you couldn't appreciate all of it. But I'm answering the questions, and I was like, are all these answers, like, really bad? And they're like, no. Like, these are good. I'm like, I don't know.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Like. Because you're not even thinking straight. And then I get off the chair, and they're like, all right, we want Tommy to come back down again. Let's get another reaction. So I go off to the side, and Trevor comes up to me, and, you know, this psycho. Look at him. Look at his face. Look at him while he's. What? That's why he's choking me.

[B]

Yeah, that's what he would do to me. He's not goofing around.

[A]

But look, he's not looking at me. Interesting. He used to be looking at. When I didn't know this, but when you watch the tape before this, he's looking at me. But when it got to this part, he couldn't look at me. So he comes up to me and goes, his brother. That was really painful for me to do. I'm like, it didn't look painful. Look like you were into it. He's like, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Is that just something he did, or is that something they teach? Like, don't look.

[A]

Yeah, well, no, no, no. That's like, he. Because, again, like, we're, like, friends at this point, right? You know, we had breakfast that morning. You know, like, nice guy. He's friends with people I'm friends with. And he's just like. He's like, dude, you know, I. That was really painful for me to do. And I. I bullshitted with him. But he's like, no, really? Like, that was tough. But I. Apparently in the interview afterwards, I was, like, disappointed that I broke or something. I don't remember saying anything.

[B]

Did you kind of, like, looking back at the interview, do you remember exactly? Because your memory is great. Generally, your recall is pretty impeccable.

[A]

I thought they had waterboarded me three times, not twice. Because in between the two waterboardings, when he was doing this and shit, in my head, it was in the moment of waterboarding.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

But he wasn't actually. They weren't doing anything. So they said, you only got it twice, not three times. I said, okay. So I had that wrong. But I thought it broke on the third time. It felt pretty biblical, you know? But he was like. He was like, dude, that was. He's like, don't worry about he goes, everybody breaks. There's no one that doesn't break. He's like, you guys just did a remarkable job. And he. Like, after Tommy was done on the buck, he was like, dude, it's amazing what you guys just did. Apparently, though, in between Psycho Miguel. In between, like, after Tommy got done, you saw the. They were doing Tommy dumping water, and all the angles were insane. You got Andy doing all the theatrics. They're interviewing Tommy, and Miguel goes up to Andy. He's like, I. I need more. No, I need more. That's not enough. Andy's like, dude, you. We could stop right now. You got enough for a documentary? He's like, no, no, I. I need more. And so when I was lasting on just the bed, they're. They're like. They're talking. Like, you can hear them while he has me sitting there when he's not talking to me. You can, like, hear them talking. They're like, oh, Andy wants to waterboard him. He's doing pretty well with this. Yeah, I guess we're gonna waterborne, like, gee, thanks, guys. Thanks for sticking up for me. You could have said no. Yeah, dude, you know, but we got it.

[B]

Send Miguel to Guantanamo. You should go film over there. He sounds like he's equipped.

[A]

I'm like, we'll send you back. You know what I mean? It's in your blood. Sorry.

[B]

He should work over there. Yeah, right. He just got hired by the CIA, right?

[A]

No, no, I didn't know he could just be hired by his own people. I feel like he'd be right, but he's from one of them anyway. But they. Andy and. And Trevor come up to us after. Like, I talk with Trevor, Trevor talks with Tommy, and then they get interviewed one more time, and then they get up because we have, like, allegedly two more rounds to go for the afternoon. And Andy goes, yo, totally up to you guys. You guys got enough. Like. And you've had an experience today. Like, this is. This has been very legit. You guys did very well. Well, you know, we can cut it right here. And Tommy and I just looked at each other, and we're like, nah, that.

[B]

We're like.

[A]

We're gonna keep going. So you guys kept going? Yeah, we were just like, you know what? It. Dude, Tommy's a savage, bro. What am I gonna say? No, he's. He's, like, ready to go. And he thinks at this point, he only lasted three minutes on the ground, so now he. Now he's got something to prove, which wasn't true because they told him he lasted three minutes when it was like.

[B]

15, which again, is a part of this.

[A]

Which also might have been Andy being like, that'll make him go for the afternoon. Yeah, yeah. That might have been why he did that. But Tommy corrected the record in the documentary, which was good. He's like, and here they lied to me. It was actually 15 minutes upon further review. So we go back, and now they're going to do stress positions. And we get like. They're like, all right, you ready to go? They hood us. They put us down in the chairs. And like, it wasn't, you know, I, I guess at this point you just feel like they can't go harder than they just did, which ended up kind of being true. But they start putting me, they start with me now, right? And they put me down in a transit position. And none of this is in the documentary, but Tommy and I, they would get quiet, and Tommy and I would start having funny conversations. He's like, how about those Epstein files? This was like, right? This is June 12th. So it's like right after it's all happening, Cash Pat went on Joe Rogan. He's like, I don't, I don't know. And there's no Epstein file. And I was like, you can never trust a Metro PCs salesman to tell you about the Epstein files. What the fuck? And he's like, but it feels like the timing's off. But when I saw it later, I was like, oh, that was so good. We should have used that. But, you know, and then Trevor, that was the one time all day he was kind of laughing in the background, and, But Andy was not. And Andy comes up, he goes, all right, gentlemen, I, I, I understand that, you know, you want to joke around and have fun, but we need answers here. You know, what was the. I can't remember what the question was in the afternoon. It was maybe another math question or something like that.

[B]

Now, before we go to the stress testing, really quick, the waterboarding thing, Is there a part of you in the back of your head that knows you can't drown? Technically, like, the sensation is real, but, like, people say, oh, you can't actually drown. You can't actually die.

[A]

I thought I was going to. When your brain tells you in that last round, because he didn't. They don't take, when they do waterboarding, they're supposed to take the towel off and let you get air again. I never got that right. So I got, got not as bad of an experience on the actual water because my head is Forward and not back.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That is, in my opinion, much. I haven't done the back one. I don't want to do the back one, but I feel like that's got to be worse. The sensation feels like it's longer. It's straight up. Literally straight up. Rather than you're breathing in the wet rag that was already wet. But the aftermath, there's no reprieve. So in between the rounds, you know, he's with me for. For 65 seconds, and it's just, like, not breathing. So I. I will say, when I did that last, like, yeah, that was. I was like, you're done. I was like. And that's why when they pulled the mask off, I was like, I ain't dying for this.

[B]

Yeah. Like, because your brain literally tells you you're. You're dying.

[A]

Yeah. But I. I don't know. I need to talk to. I'd never talked to a doctor on that since then. Or, like, a scientist or something. I'm sure they could answer this question better. But, like, I felt like, there's no air. Yeah. And he had it tight, dude. It wasn't like, if he stays tight. Oh, that was the other thing. I had a plan before what I thought was the third one, but it was really the second one. Right. Which was the last one where I ended up breaking. I had a plan that, like, when he did it and finished the water, I was gonna pretend to faint to buy time. Bad plan. Yeah.

[B]

I feel like it's not the right.

[A]

Plan because then the water happen happened, and a sensation went into my head that said, I'm gonna die before I hit the ground, which isn't true. Wow. Right? But that's how, like, your brain stuff you are. Your brain was like, I went straight up. And again, I didn't realize. I went straight up into the sky. Like, in between, after that second round, before we started the third round, Dre was like, yo, look at this, bro.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, what? He's like, bro.

[B]

Because it's not your control. It's not you in conscious brain.

[A]

It's your subconscious felt like a shivering little still and trying to breathe. But it was like, I'm a shivering little. But, like, I went straight up. And they said something.

[B]

They said something interesting where they're like, everyone breaks in 15 minutes. Like, the vast majority of people.

[A]

I don't know if they said a minutes thing, but they said everyone breaks, period. Just in general, but they said.

[B]

I think it was like, 15, where they're like, most people. It's like between. Maybe they did or something to that effect.

[A]

I think they might have.

[B]

But it's like an interesting thing where.

[A]

You'Re like, yeah, no, I could do it.

[B]

I can hit. It's like, no.

[A]

Right, but.

[B]

And then if you can, Last class is 30 minutes an hour.

[A]

That was the thing. When we were having dinner that night at Tommy's house, like, the whole crew, we were talking to Andy about it, and I said to him, I said, I didn't realize, like, how experienced you were with this. And he's like, dude, but it's not like what we did today. I'm like, what do you mean? It's not like that. He goes, yeah, those things happen. And yes, they're worse than what you got. Like, that's what they would do. And it got worse. Like, you guys didn't get 100%, which we knew that. But he's like, it's not like six hours or seven hours. It's a Tuesday. You walk in there for 15, 30 minutes, like, all right, well, I guess we're going to torture this guy, see if we get an answer. And you come back 12 hours later, and if he gives you an answer at that point, you give him a fucking peanut butter sandwich. It's just a job. Yeah. So that part, like, the continue the continuous nature of it technically, like, isn't really what they would have to do, but they just go really hard at someone and then let them sit on it for a long time. And if they don't get an answer, they do it again the next next day. Again the next day. Some guys get this for weeks at a time, but everybody breaks. It's a matter of if they really wanted to break someone and maybe potentially break some laws, even though they were already breaking laws to do this in the first place. You know, the laws that they invented. Torture guidelines then. Yeah. Like, I. I would imagine people are going to break in 10 to 15 minutes or 20 minutes.

[B]

Is it torture?

[A]

See, I don't even know how I answered it at the time, and I don't know how. How I would answer it now. Now I would probably say waterboarding is a form of torture. Yeah. I would say the stress positions are arguably anti. Constitutional. Yeah. And when I say arguably as being general and generous, I don't know if I'd call it full blown torture. I. I mean, I did. I thought. I didn't. A couple days later, when. When Joe and I were recording an episode, recapping it, I thought I didn't break my toe, but I. My Toe had been frozen, fractured from the stress, you know, which you can't. I went to my uncle that weekend. I was like, oh, yeah. He's like, there's nothing to do.

[B]

It just heals.

[A]

Yeah. So it was fine. It was fine a few weeks later.

[B]

Was it from this one?

[A]

No, that was the last one. But the stress positions. Not that transit one. That transit one you can last in for a while. I didn't think that's that bad. The other ones suck. Like, the last one we did. We. We both. I lasted a minute, Tommy lasted two minutes. And what was last one? The last one's just. They would put you against a wall, move your feet back, and have you press your forehead against the concrete, and all the weight of your body goes into the concrete. And I was like, yelling. Tom was on the other one. I was on this one right here. Our backs are to each other. And I was like, tom, I think I'm checking out. And so I've had enough. He's like, okay. And then I'm like, all right. And. And Andy's like, you know the word. He's like, just pissed at this point, I'm like, cupcake. And they let me off. And then Tommy lasted a little while longer because Tommy's a wrestler to, too. And that position, like, unbelievable neck strength. So, like, you see Tommy's neck, like, bulging. Like. Like his whole traps are bulging and everything. And he held on for a while longer. But before that, the. That was the final round. That was the quickest round. The third round was the last long round. And that was when we were talking about the Epstein files. And. And then I was feeling really good at this point because I'm like, we already got enough content. I'm really. I don't give a. Like, I'll give up right away. Say. Let's just get some funny sound bites if they're going to use it. So, like, Andy, it was spell the word. What was the word we were spelling? July. It was like, spell July. And I'd be like, F, U, C, K, Y, O, U. And so he got pissed. And so Tommy was with him a little less right now. So he puts me down first. He goes, all right, let's get. Let's get the zip ties undone, get Julian down. And the sear business position. The sear position is when they put you. It's before that, Christos, a few minutes, but they basically take you and put you. I also. I should not have been bulking before this. I look a lot better now.

[B]

I mean, compared To Tommy, anyone's gonna look a little.

[A]

Yeah, I was in like a three month bulk, so I was carrying around like 15 pounds extra fat. What are you gonna do?

[B]

I see myself in the mirror on any given day, and I'm like, we look a lot.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

But Tommy didn't do you any favors. He should have told you, like, hey, let's.

[A]

Let's go for this. Look at Tommy, bro. 0%. That's also like the worst position you could be in. Yeah. Anyway, so they. What they do is they stick you down on your knees with your feet behind you and your. The. The tops of your feet are flat. You're thinking, all right, I'm just kneeling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then they take you and they push you back so all the weight of your body goes right. Like on. I don't want to hold my foot up so the psychos can screenshot it. But like, you know what I mean? But like, if your big toe is like that, like where it's got the little curve right there, all the weight goes on the top ball of your foot and on that. Whatever the. Maybe my doctors out there, if they watch the show, can help me. Goes on to that bone right there. That's what. Fractured. Yeah, right. And when he put me back into that, it was that like, yeah, go. Can we.

[B]

Let's roll this real quick. So I just want to see the.

[A]

This was after he. He was down there for a while. Damn. And I broke. But like, right away, when he broke, he was like, julian, you haven't answered our question. And I was like, please don't ask me, August.

[B]

Like, in my head, I got to.

[A]

Hold out another one. No, I was like, then I'm going to have to hold out out another one. Yeah. But he said, July. I was like, yeah, it's like, let's get up. But. But they. But they started doing that. And when. And then Andy would come. He's like, you look like you need to be pushed back farther. I was born with dislocated hips, too, so that doesn't help. Right? Like, I'm. I'm athletic, but I'm not flexible. Yeah, not flexible. So he's pushing me back on my flexibility. So there's like simultaneously some things happening in here. And then Tommy's so flexible. He's got Tommy back like that, bro. So Tommy's just got all the weight there. But when he put. I could feel the crunching on the hardwood.

[B]

Fracturing, dude.

[A]

I thought I was fracturing my foot. I did. My feet were black. And blue. But they were not fractured, they were fine. I wouldn't have been able to walk.

[B]

I mean, this is like one of these things. Like I would never even think that.

[A]

This would be bad, right?

[B]

Like if you were like, hey, torture someone, this would never come up, right?

[A]

So then Andy like comes up and starts, they didn't put this in there. But like we. He and I have been talking about like, I guess like training and stuff and like bodybuilding and things like that. So I was like, here's what I'm working on, here's what I'm bulking on and everything like that. So he comes up and he. And he. Like, I'm back here and he plays. He pulls up my pack pendant and he goes, it's a little extra weight to be holding right there, you know, I bet that's not nice. And I'm like, whatever. Like he starts like, like almost like going with it, like acting. And then he starts grabbing little bits of fat on me. And he goes, I know you're bulking right now, but you're carrying around a little extra or something like that. And I'm in the mask and I just turn to him and I'm like, I can't really see him, but I'm looking at him, I just start laughing like, I'm gonna fucking kill you when I get out of here. Which I didn't. But you know, he's just with us. And then we both broke like at the same time.

[B]

Is this worse than the waterboarding?

[A]

It's a totally different. No, it's not worse than the waterboarding, but it's a totally different thing. And it is so annoying. It's. It's an annoying, searing pain. No pun intended. And so we both went through that. They interview us again and they're like, guys, we really got enough now. There's only one more thing. And we're like doing it. And that's when we did the cement thing. It was like, I lasted a minute, Tommy. Maybe it was like three minutes on that.

[B]

But is that. Cuz you were kind of worn down. Like if you did it fresh, could you go longer?

[A]

Yeah. At that point I was in my head, I was like, we had just with them hard in this scene right here. I was like, probably I'm good. I, you know, I need my forehead. I'm on camera. Like, I'm already not too good looking. Let's not ruin it.

[B]

No, come on. You look like a little Jim Morrison.

[A]

So anyway. Wow, this. Yeah, people said that. I keep getting Danny Duncan Yeah, that's what they keep the modern Jim Morrison and something like that.

[B]

But whose dad was CIA, so there you go.

[A]

No, that's right, yeah. Oh, I see what you did there. But he could have said Mick Jagger, but you didn't.

[B]

All of them, their parents are CI.

[A]

But anyway, so that was the whole. Yeah, I, I, that's like the first time anyone ever said, I look like someone. I'm like, all right, it's. You're not crazy. Yeah, it's similar.

[B]

I can see it.

[A]

It's.

[B]

I mean, I bet you he couldn't go, you know, a minute and a half in the cement position.

[A]

Have you seen his content, bro?

[B]

Yeah, he actually might be.

[A]

I'll bet he could have gone a lot longer than I did.

[B]

He's a wild boy.

[A]

He's out of his mind, bro. Put him through that, he'll probably go 14 hours. Yeah, but, yeah, like, I don't, I, I do think, like, we were competitive with it because we're like, we gotta get good content. Like, don't let Andy break you for clout. I think a lot of people would have been able to get through a lot of it if they had that mentality. Just like, all right, you know, let's, let's make sure we do enough here because, you know, it's not real. You know, you can get out of it. That's where you can't simulate.

[B]

I wonder if that's difficult in its own way, though, because you're like, oh, if I just say this, I'm done. Whereas, like, if you're in an actual, you know, situation, it's like, well, if I say this, like, will it keep going? Like, could I. Will they kill me?

[A]

May. Well, all right, so let's play with that. Maybe, baby. I built a business, right? I started in my parents house with nothing. And the only reason I exist is because I had my parents roof over my head. Like, I literally couldn't buy socks, so I had to make it or be a loser for the rest of my life.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the mentality is either I get up and work today or nothing happens. I could technically get up and not do anything and get on food stamps or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I was like, I don't want that. So I'm gonna do. I think it's like a, just, all right, I could give up on this and not get what we need to do today, or I could do the hard thing and get what we need to do today. And people will actually get somewhat of a simulation here. But here is where you cannot simulate it. I cannot possibly simulate having a secret whatever that is that is larger than my actual life in my possession that an enemy combatant is trying to get out of me. Yeah, I cannot possibly simulate that. There is nothing you could do do for content to ever s. And like again talk to Andy about it. This is 60, 70% of what they would start with, bro. Yep. What happens when the pliers come out? Yeah, I mean all that, like they don't even. They skip tasers. They go to whatever the things they use in Jurassic park are. You know what I mean? Like this is like children's stuff. So as bad as this sounds, you could probably last.

[B]

Okay, can we take a pre break and then debrief on some more CIA?

[A]

Yeah, why not?

[B]

Okay. All right, we're back in.

[A]

After this experience.

[B]

I'm curious what your thoughts are on enhanced interrogation and did you talk to Boostamante about what else could have happened or what else could have been done to you guys had, you know, like was there an extra plan or if this was a real situation, where else would this happen have gone?

[A]

All right, so he had no extra plan past that? I hope not. I don't think they were like an electrocute our balls or anything. Like I think we did what they had planned. But again, 60, 70% of capacity of just that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not including the capacity beyond that, which is you add another 100, I don't know, 200. I don't know. My answer on this probably changes over time because it's still like you process it and whatever. Of course. Course the age old question of, you know, there's a nuclear bomb in New York City. It's going to go off in three hours. There's one man sitting in front of you in the chair. You know, he knows where it is. Would you or wouldn't you? Yeah, everyone's going to do that. Yeah, they're going to do whatever it takes. But the constitution and laws are a strange slippery slope with things. I struggle with this a lot on stuff. I will say I, you know, I haven't had a full talk with John Kaku about it. Cuz I sent John like the raw footage from the airport. He's like, oh my God, that's awful. Good on you to do it. Now you know how up this is. And I was like, work John. I don't know.

[B]

So I've heard that sometimes the quality information can be.

[A]

Be not great because people want to tell you what you want to hear. I was thinking because that and that's what I was saying to people. You can't simulate that because a lot of times, you know, they get some guy that they picked up in some, you know, wherever in Pakistan, they're like, we think he knows somebody and it turns out to just be like, you know, the doorman. Yeah. And then four fingers later it's like, yeah, he's right there and then he's not there.

[B]

I would just say whatever, you know what I mean? Like if someone's torturing me, they're like, what's your grandpa's name? I'd be like Gerald. I would just say whatever.

[A]

Whatever you want it to be, baby. Like.

[B]

Because at least even if it's not that. I know it's not that. But you guys are going to go find out and then you're going to come back and then I'll go through this again. But at least I have a day.

[A]

That's right. That's right. So there's that part. The other part is. And I was trying to think about this, you can't truly simulate it. But my thought was if I really did have information, like for real y', all, I feel like eventually I'd give it.

[B]

Of course you would.

[A]

Just that's what I'm saying. But like everyone breaks. Do you break with the right information?

[B]

Don't tell me government secrets, cuz I will tell them.

[A]

Yeah. Like that's the thing.

[B]

It's just so I'll tell them in this pot I won't even get tortured.

[A]

Like it's a strange put in the title. Like, like I'm not.

[B]

Like what are we talking about? Yeah, I'm not built for it.

[A]

I don't, I don't know. It's a tough one. It's gonna be interesting when I talk with John. He's gonna come in in November I think. And when I talk with him about it because for people out there, John Kiriaku is, was a very high level CIA guy who blew the whistle on the torture stuff and then they threw him in jail for it. And that's a whole up story what they did to him. But he was the one guy, a senior level guy behind the scenes when they said they were going to do this after 9 11, who said this is bullshit and we should not do this. And he's not a of part. You're talking about a dude who was a hardcore undercover spy. The dude who personally took down Abu Zubayda himself. This is a hardened. This is not a dude that if I were on the wrong end of Him I want to be stuck in a back alley with like this, this is a real guy. And that was his stance on it. I have a ton of respect for that. And he paid the ultimate price. There was total what they did to him. Everything that they did to him was. But it's like, you know, would you, I, I, I, I don't know. And I'm, I'm, you know, I also have bias. Like, I'm always, I'm always going to like, look at something the CIA does and say we shouldn't do that.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

And like, yeah, there's a lot, there's a laundry list of that. You know, the they do that's just completely against the Constitution. And this is too, this is like one thing that I'm like, ah, yeah, no, I, I don't, I don't know. But it's not. Look, in a utopatarian world where like, America's supposed to stand for something and we're supposed to be better than other people, no, we should not do it. Y. And again, like, I got a small taste what they do is significantly, significantly worse than that. And I also say that no knowing that at least some of those things on that enhanced interrogation list, they definitely went beyond otherwise you don't destroy those tapes. Yeah, of course they went well.

[B]

And then, not to mention there's things that you don't even necessarily like, in this simulation, connect with. So it's like, hey, we actually got your dad. Hey, we actually got your kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey, and maybe you'll never see your kid again. Like all of these things that are now even compounding the stress.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like you can't even comprehend that. Again, there's no simulation for that.

[A]

It was, it was so strange though, like, psychologically, because we get out of it, we finish and then everyone high fives. And then. Dude, Tommy was watching. Tommy G. Work is like so cool, cuz. Like, he has this like all Shucks, Milwaukee thing. That motherfucker's 10 steps ahead of everybody. He had this whole thing thought out. He, after this whole experience, he sits down and interviews each guy for like 45 minutes a piece of piece with perfect questions, 60 minute style. He and Miguel are setting up the set. It's perfect. He's got Trevor here, then he does Andy over here. And then we each did one. So when Andy and I were done, I was like, I need a coffee. I need some, by the way, waterboarding. Terrific for a cold. My cold was gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Afterwards.

[B]

Oh, that's nice.

[A]

Afterwards. That Was another thing. When I was in there and they were starting this whole thing, I was struggling breathing. I was Wanted to kill Brian. I was like. Cuz, you know, I'm like a little stuffed up, so it's harder, you know? But once we got to the waterboard, and I was not really thinking about that. I do wonder if maybe I would have had that 2% of oxygen I needed to go another round. But probably not. Yeah, probably not. But, like, at this point, cold's gone.

[B]

They should prescribe that. They should prescribe. If you got mono, I want RFK to come out with that. No more Tylenol.

[A]

And I don't like waterboarding. Waterboarding is a terrific thing that I'm not saying. Listen to. See, I killed my father. Okay, dude, they killed my father. They killed my uncle. But they know how to waterboard, you know? But they're like. I'm like, I need a coffee. And Andy's like, I was thinking I could get something too, like, just like that.

[B]

And I'm like, did you hold any animosity? Like, no, not. Not literally. But like, was your body a little bit like.

[A]

No, my body was. I was. It was a rush. Yeah. You're just like, wow, all right. We weren't a total pussy today. That was the thought. It was like. That was the win. Yeah, it was like, we didn't out. Like, Tom and me were high five.

[B]

How'd you sleep?

[A]

And it was good. I slept like a baby that night. But when we were done, like, I wanted the coffee. And so again, we're like, right off the beaten path. We're like, civilization. No civilization. Nothing's happening here. So Andy and I, like, I look at Andy, he goes, I could use one too. So we walk outside. Like, this is. This is his attitude. Like, he's just chill. This is right after finishing, he's chill and he's like, all right, let's take a walk. I'm like, yeah, there's like some fucking flea market up here or some. Like, I'm sure they got something there. So we go up and like, again, there's people in Milwaukee. So this is like a whole experience for me. I walk over the drawbridge. You're in civilization. You ever been to the Reading Terminal in Philly?

[B]

I have, actually.

[A]

Great spot. It's like all these places and it's a whole city block. And you walk in and it's a giant old school food market of just like different little restaurants, different little spots to buy whole food. So they got their own, like, mini Milwaukee One called, like, the Public market that's like a, you know, half mile away. So he and I walk there. You know, my shirt's, like, dried off a little bit at this point, but I'm just looking around at all these people. I'm like, if only they knew, dude. And I go up, I order a coffee. He's like, I think I'm gonna go over here. So I walk with him. He goes, y' all take a yellow smoothie with. Oh, fuck you, dude. Fuck you. And then we, you know, we walk back and then we go home to Tommy's. The whole team came home over. We had dinner. Tommy has, like, a beautiful. He has beautiful, like, open grass acreage behind him. And again, it's June in Milwaukee, so there it's not, like, snowing. So that was a w. It was like, you know, like 70°. And he's got a little lake back there, and then there's a nature trail that goes around the lake into the woods. It was great. So we had dinner. Then we all went on a walk through the trail. It was. It was like a very nice ending to the day. But those guys were totally tough. Turned off. Like, they were. They were good.

[B]

Different humans.

[A]

Yeah. And they were like, really. They were, like, really proud of the whole team. They're like, everyone got all the footage. Like, great job. Like, dude, shout out to the fucking team that captured everything. Like, like I said, I've seen all the raws. The camera work was unreal. Like, I'll show you the RAW tape of, like, what they did to Tommy and what they did to me in that middle session when you come over, when I. When I got it, I just put it together and I, like, switched it. Just, like, live just like this. And at the end, I'm like, there's nothing to do. They would have a moving shot close up of, like, Andy holding the bucket simultaneously while another guy's just getting his face simultaneous. Why a guy's getting a wide shot and none of them were talking to each other. They just knew their job. So, like, Miguel had it. Had it set up to a T. And I think what's really cool, and it's kind of a testament to Tommy. I don't think something like this has ever been done before. There's, you know, a 20 minute video of Tim Kennedy lying back and doing, you know, having water dumped and then come, you know, with the towel and then coming up and being like, yeah, I can take. Like, he's. He's a tough. Like, he kept doing it, but as far as, like, actually getting abducted, going through somewhat of a process. I mean, they do this all the time in the military and to a worst degree, but, like, doing it in public, like on YouTube, kind of cool. Like, that was something. Tommy was like, it, let's do it. And I got a lot of respect for that.

[B]

Would you do it again?

[A]

No, I'm good. I, I, you know, 11 out of 10 wouldn't recommend, man.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

I'm Mark, I'm retired.

[B]

Okay, Call it off. I had the guy, I had some.

[A]

Guys here that I'm gonna keep. Well, we got him back. You saw that.

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

Oh, yeah. When you got Andy back. Oh, he didn't see it coming. Yeah. Great camera work by Deef, by the way.

[B]

Hell, yeah, dude.

[A]

Deep. Deep would played it so smooth, like, right before I got on as I put sunglasses on, because I'm like, I just, I need my eyes, like, covered before I break because we were gonna do a podcast and I had my two buddies, who I was calling Vinnie and Ra Rocco, hiding in, in the closet behind the curtain in, like, balacavas and, you know, sunglassed up and everything. And they were going to come out in zip time, so I knew I had to get to it. And De was like, oh, yeah, no, I got to do the B roll first. I'm like, oh, yeah, just get that out of the way. So Deep is doing the switcher and B rolling, like, us going back and forth. And then I was like, man, hey, Rocco. And they come and, like, bust out of there, and he, like, come on. Like, he was like, you gotta be fucking. And then they didn't know how to zip time.

[B]

Yeah, A little less professional.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, holding up his hands like he dropped one. God damn it. Giovanni, like, fucking hugged him. My buddy Giovanni was one of them. He, like, hugged him. He was, like, laughing the whole time. I'm like, you don't fucking hug the guy. You grab his arm and you zip tie him. So I'm like, filling the water in the shower and carrying the bat around, expecting him to do a professional job. I trained him for, like, a whole five minutes right before for this. I was like, now get in the closet. Like, it's Anne Frank. Don't make a sound. They wait in there for 15 minutes and then they come out. And then, you know, they just didn't on a zip tie. But it worked out. It was fine.

[B]

Well, I'm gonna keep my head on a swivel whenever I come into your studio.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not gonna do that to you, Mark. It was just payback for him.

[B]

Look, you can never be too vigilant. And, I mean, you're a fantastic storyteller. This is a remarkable story. And the last thing I have to say is just. You're a huge pussy.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you. I, I.

[B]

My mom tapped out 15 minutes in.

[A]

I know.

[B]

What a loser, this guy.

[A]

My mom started calling me A at 7. It's why I am the way I am.

[B]

I agree with her.

[A]

She knows.

[B]

We have so much. Man, you were so. Such a.

[A]

How's your mom doing, by the way?

[B]

You're such a loser. I can't believe this, dude. I can't believe you've tapped in 15 minutes, bro.

[A]

Tell your mama. Shut. Hello?

[B]

This guy's unbelievably soft. Oh, the softest guy ever, right?

[A]

You know this guy?

[B]

Guy.

[A]

It's all right. We're going to have you back in a couple weeks if you make it back from Riyadh. You know they don't treat the gays well in Riyadh. I'm worried about you.

[B]

I'm not gay, dude. I promise. All right?

[A]

It was. Listen, I've seen gays that have kids too. Listen, one time. I'm just saying. All right?

[B]

Oh, no, you're a legend. You're a legend, brother. This is awesome. Thank you so much for coming.

[A]

Thanks for having me, dude.

[B]

I appreciate it. Let's do it again soon, all right? Thank you, bro.

[A]

Peace.