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- [00:00]
Clark Fredericks
I go up to his door. We got into a violent fight. He slipped in the blood that was both of ours on the. On the floor. And I looked him in the eye, and I said, it's not so fun little boys, now, is it, Dennis? And I split his throat.
- [00:13]
Mark Agnon
This is Clark Fredericks. He's an advocate, an author, and the most badass Boy Scout of all time. He became known as the man who stabbed and killed his childhood abuser. He writes that from 8 to 12, he and several others were sexually and psychologically abused by their boy scout leader and sheriff's officer, Dennis Peg. But this story isn't one of vengeance. It's a story of redemption. Clark will tell us about his childhood trauma. He will also explain how to keep your kids safe from abusers and if you yourself have childhood trauma, how to deal with it and cope in a healthy way that doesn't lead you down the same destructive path that Clark has followed.
- [00:51]
Clark Fredericks
This is your opportunity, dude. So my advice would be open up lines of communication. You know, no matter how upset or disappointed you are with your child over their destructive behavior, there's a reason for it. Find out what that reason is.
- [01:06]
Mark Agnon
This episode is absolutely amazing, and Clark is a true survivor. This is a topic that not many people talk about, and a lot of men like to push down, but Clark has been brave enough to share his story. Everything he's learned, from his healing to meditation to his spirituality and his relationship with God and ultimately, how he's a better person today and an advocate for children that have suffered abuse at the hands of the powerful within their community. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. What is dadication? The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Dae Date for short. Every day, he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.
- [02:02]
Clark Fredericks
That's dedication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by.
- [02:06]
Mark Agnon
The U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council. Clark Fredericks. Thanks so much for being here.
- [02:14]
Clark Fredericks
Mark Agnon. Nice to be here, bro.
- [02:16]
Mark Agnon
Thank you so much for coming all the way from Westchester.
- [02:19]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, not that I left with plenty of time and made it here in less than an hour, so it wasn't bad.
- [02:25]
Mark Agnon
Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I'm really, really excited to talk for a few reasons. But I also just want to put a disclaimer to anyone that's listening that this episode might be at moments a little heavier than some of the other episodes we've done.
- [02:39]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, there's some heavy stuff, bro, but.
- [02:41]
Mark Agnon
I think it's good and I think it's productive. But I just want to throw that out there if there's anyone listening that maybe has had experience with sexual abuse or trauma that you know to proceed with caution. But I think that the conversation we're gonna have is important for a few reasons. One, I think there are a lot of people that have dealt with sexual abuse that don't know how to cope with it, don't even realize that it happened. They have no idea that the behavior that they're doing in their adult life is a reflection of what happened to them in their childhood. They kind of think that it's compartmentalized. And secondly, I think it's important for parents and people with kids to know what this looks like and how psychopaths and pedophiles can manipulate children and young teens into doing things that they normally wouldn't do. And like I mentioned before myself, being the father now of an eight month old, I think about this kind of stuff all the time now, which is terrifying. Just like, you know, one day he's going to want to go on a sleepover or one day he's going to want to do, you know, like a sleep away thing with the boy Scouts, or want to go with the church group or want to do something that I'm not there. And that brings me a lot of anxiety. And I think through our conversation and through the book that you wrote, Scarred, you lay out a lot of sort of the manipulation tactics that abusers will use to coerce their victims and the survivors of those abuses. So I guess just to start from the very beginning, can you just explain sort of where you grew up and kind of the, the town and the, the lay of the land in, in the spot where you were?
- [04:11]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. I mean, you think rural areas are like isolated from, you know, like the hardcore crime. Like it's more in the populated areas.
- [04:22]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [04:22]
Clark Fredericks
But like it's like a haven for pedophiles though, you know, especially back in the time frame I grew up, you know, the, the 70s, there was so much freedom back then. You know, people nowadays, they just can't believe how kids were allowed all this freedom by their parents. It was, you know, as soon as you could learn how to ride your bike, be gone and Be back at dinner time.
- [04:52]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [04:52]
Clark Fredericks
Like six years old. Like, like there was no cell phones, there was no computers. So that parents didn't want you around the house, they wanted you out getting dir. You know, doing whatever.
- [05:04]
Mark Agnon
Tired and come home, go to sleep.
- [05:05]
Clark Fredericks
That's it. Yeah. And you know, I, I grew up in a real rural area of New Jersey, A town called Stillwater. It just lived at a lake community. So like, you know, all the kids, you know, would go down to where there was a dam that separated the lake and then from the river. You know, the river started at the dam and just fishing and there was ball fields, basketball courts, tennis courts, playground, just like everything, you know, so everything. Everybody congregated down by the, by the dam area. There was beaches for the lake.
- [05:47]
Mark Agnon
And what was your family dynamic like? Like what did your parents do? What were your siblings doing?
- [05:51]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, my, my father, you know, we were a middle class family. You know, money. I don't recall ever being a real issue. My father was a salesman. My mother worked at the high school in the library. I had an older brother, older sister. You know, on, on paper, everything looked well adjusted. My father wasn't a regular drinker, but when he drank, he drank to get bombed. He got sober the last when I was like 17, so the last whatever, 15 years of his life or, or so he was sober and he.
- [06:42]
Mark Agnon
Would he get angry?
- [06:44]
Clark Fredericks
Nah, nah, I wasn't an angry drunk. Just, just getting bombed, man. Yeah, yeah.
- [06:53]
Mark Agnon
Tuned up, watching the game.
- [06:54]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. You know, dealing with that, you know, like I said, it wasn't on a daily basis, maybe a weekend basis. So, you know, and it really wasn't until I was, you know, a little older that you would recognize it and see it and, and then my brother was a big, you know, my brother was six years older than me. He was a big partier. And I didn't know at the time, but he had, you know, our abuser was his scout leader, which then became, you know, my scout leader. And that was his. He used the boy scouts. He used that dam area at the lake as like trolling grounds. And this guy, on paper, he was a lieutenant in the sheriff's department. He was a member of the Kiwanis Club. Kiwanis is for the betterment of children in the community. Like he was an honor met honorary member of Boys Town. Boys Town, I think is Nebraska maybe. And they've had all sorts of pedophile problems at Boys Town. He's an honorary member. He was a chaplain in the American Legion. You know, here you are A pedophile, a predator. And you're the chaplain, you know, giving the prayer at the start of each, you know, session in the American Legion.
- [08:28]
Mark Agnon
Yeah, of course.
- [08:31]
Clark Fredericks
And just if you googled Dennis Pegg obituary, like his family in the obituary listed like 25 organizations he was a part of. And the police are all like, those are all his hunting grounds. You know, he's a member of, a member of the autobahn society. I've got so many parents that reached out to me about their kids, you know, in autobahn society, you know, who were under his care. And it's just, it's a long laundry list of hunting grounds for him. Yeah, he was a, he was a professional hunter. Children, man.
- [09:09]
Mark Agnon
Yeah, guys like this are strategic and meticulous. Like, this is not a happenstance thing. This is a lifestyle built around this type of abuse.
- [09:18]
Clark Fredericks
He's investing, he's investing years into every kid. You know, I wasn't the only one down at the lake, you know, that he's giving beer to at nine years old. You know, he's a lieutenant in the sheriff's department. He's giving beer to us.
- [09:32]
Mark Agnon
Right?
- [09:32]
Clark Fredericks
You know, nine years old. Think. I think how little a nine year old is.
- [09:36]
Mark Agnon
Yeah, it's absurd.
- [09:37]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, it's crazy.
- [09:38]
Mark Agnon
And as we progress into the story, again, I mentioned this before, but if at any point you want to take a break or you don't want to proceed with specific details like by all means, you can just flag it. But at what age did you meet Dennis Pegg?
- [09:52]
Clark Fredericks
My earliest recollection is like, you know, five, six years old.
- [09:56]
Mark Agnon
And up until that point, would you describe your childhood as peaceful?
- [10:01]
Clark Fredericks
No, I had a really crappy start to life. I was born with a hole in my heart and I was being monitored for open heart surgery. And like any, I was always getting sick, you know, like pneumonia or bronchitis and I was always in the hospital. I remember like being in those oxygen tents in the hospital. So, you know, and that's traumatic in itself when, you know, you're constantly in the hospital. And then I spent a month at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City getting my open heart surgery. And you know, the doctors came to my parents when I was 6 and said his hole has grown to the size of a half dollar and we have six month window to operate. And this was like a life. And this was 1971 when I was six. And this was a life or death situation and, and I survived it. And I have keloid condition where your scars raised up and this animal like Used this life or death scar, which signified life or death for me, as his way to, like, start touching me. Like, I've never seen a scar like that. Can I touch it? So my parents were so proud of me for surviving this surgery. They would have me lift my shirt, and all their friends would have to give me a quarter, like, clark, show your scar. You know, and then they called it a zipper, you know, Cause all the stitch marks, it actually looks like a zipper. And, you know, so I'm doing this little peep show for their friends, and one of their friends was this guy. And like three months after the surgery, I came in the house. It was a summer day. I had the surgery, like around April of 71. And I came in to get a drink and watch TV for a minute. And he came to the front door. Everybody's out in the backyard. And you know, he's like, hey, little buddy, come sit with me on the couch here. Where is everybody? I'm like, they're all out back. And he, you know, after talking for a minute, he's like, hey, I got a quarter to see your scar. I was like, okay. He gives me the quarter and I lift my shirt, and he's like, I've never seen a scar so raised up like yours. How about I give you a dollar and you let me touch it? And next to my father, this is who I respected the most. You know, he wore his gun. He always had his badge and lieutenant in the sheriff's department. And so I'm like, sure, you know, not thinking he's got any ill will about what he's going to do. And he's just rubbing up and down and touching my abdomen. Is your stomach sore from. From the surgery? And I'm like, no. And. And then this had to be our little secret. And he goes, we can't be friends if you can't keep a secret. This has to be between us. You don't tell your parents I gave you this dollar. I'm like, I can keep a secret. And unfortunately, keeping secrets is what did me in with him. You know, pedophiles are stopped dead in their track if. If you don't keep secrets. Their whole thing is based on secrets, right? Whether it's fear, intimidation, gifts, whatever it is, you know, you know, a lot of. A lot of family members, like. And, you know, you'll rip our family apart if you. If you tell what's going on. You know, like, you know, your mother will be out in the street. You know, you kids will be living in A foster home, you know. So.
- [13:44]
Mark Agnon
Yeah, the secret component is.
- [13:46]
Clark Fredericks
That's a main thing.
- [13:47]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. It seems it's just especially for a kid. It is. So, you know, it's the, the world is so fragile and so sort of nebulous that the idea of a secret and someone you trust telling you that if you break this secret, everything else will be ruined.
- [14:02]
Clark Fredericks
That's why you got to tell your 8 month old. You know, when your child gets a little older, if anybody tells you, any adult tells you to keep a secret, you gotta let us know immediately.
- [14:14]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [14:14]
Clark Fredericks
Because there's no reason for an adult to have a child keeping a secret.
- [14:18]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [14:19]
Clark Fredericks
There's no good reason at least.
- [14:20]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. Yeah. I've even seen this with like my little nieces and nephews. Like my sister will just tell them like, hey, we don't do secrets in our house. There's no secrets.
- [14:29]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [14:29]
Mark Agnon
So if someone tells you keep a secret, just tell them, I can't keep secrets. Sorry. And even if your friends want to tell you a secret, just say, I don't do secrets. Just there's no need to keep a secret.
- [14:37]
Clark Fredericks
That's it.
- [14:38]
Mark Agnon
And it, it sort of keeps the whole family honest to be, to be frank with you. Because they'll even say stuff, you know, just about the family in front of the kids and they're like, ah, we shouldn't say that because no one keeps secrets, you know, so it's just, it keeps everybody honest and it also, you know, keeps them away from, from predators that are using that tactic and that honesty against them.
- [14:56]
Clark Fredericks
You know, everything back in the day was stranger danger. You know, that's. My parents harped on stranger danger because we're going down by the, by the lake, by the dam, by ourselves at 6, 7 years old. And don't you dare get into anybody's car. They never said don't get into Dennis Pegg's car. Don't get into Dennis Pegg's truck. Your brother's boy scout leader. Don't get into our good friend Dennis Pegg's car.
- [15:22]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [15:23]
Clark Fredericks
You know, they never said anything about that. They just said stranger danger.
- [15:27]
Mark Agnon
And this is what we were talking about a little bit before. This idea of stranger danger, I think was predicated with good intention off of, you know, these move this, you know, this sort of cultural panic around child abduction and abuse where, you know, vans would come up and abduct kids and it was so terrifying and awful. You know, you had cases like Johnny Gosh and Eton Pats and these, these infamous cases that Are just so brutal, where these children just vanish. And as a result, the media runs with these stories and they say, you know, be careful of strangers, sort of. I think, unfortunately, neglecting the fact that I think it's like what you said, 95% of sexual abuse cases are from a known person to the family.
- [16:06]
Clark Fredericks
Right.
- [16:06]
Mark Agnon
Whether you, a relative, uncle, coach, something like that.
- [16:09]
Clark Fredericks
Yep.
- [16:10]
Mark Agnon
So I think that is another thing for parents to be aware of is that, look, of course, have a stranger danger use, you know, sense, but also keep an eye on the people that are within the sort of inner circles.
- [16:22]
Clark Fredericks
Dude. Like, it's always. And it's, you know, the coach that everybody loves or the priest everybody loves, or the lieutenant. Everybody.
- [16:30]
Mark Agnon
The police department.
- [16:31]
Clark Fredericks
Who's more safe than a lieutenant in the sheriff's department.
- [16:34]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. And I think predators also are aware of this, which is why they assume positions of high authority. Like, they will become priests and they will become lieutenants, and they will take on these positions within the society that have high moral standing, because who would ever suspect. And that's my assumption is how, you know, cunning and evil these people are, is that they're trying to find ways to basically wear morality while doing the.
- [17:01]
Clark Fredericks
Most deviant plain sight. And they hide behind their role in the community. Yeah. And like. And like, even. Even after I got arrested, you know, we'll get into why he was. He was a member of the historical society in our little town of Stillwater, and all the old ladies, you know, were quoted in the paper, he would never have done something like that. Now, he was the nicest man in world. Yeah. During. During your Historical society once a month meeting, maybe.
- [17:38]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [17:39]
Clark Fredericks
But soon as he left that meeting, he was back into hunting mode.
- [17:42]
Mark Agnon
Yeah, of course. And then also, I think this idea that, you know, evil people are evil all the time. Right. Like, I think there is a perception that, like, oh, the pedophile is. Or the abuser is, you know, this guy with a, you know, a creepy mustache in your window and he's got a trench coat. And that's not the case. You know, these people like you mentioned are upstanding their society. They're well liked. They have people around them. They have community.
- [18:04]
Clark Fredericks
Well, we think. We think evil is going to be a guy with a tail and a pitchfork and horns. Yeah. What's evil is a guy masquerading as a lieutenant and a boy scout leader and a member of Kiwanis Club for the betterment of children in the community. Who's children.
- [18:23]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [18:24]
Clark Fredericks
That's pure evil there.
- [18:25]
Mark Agnon
And he Uses this tactic with you and slowly finds a gap to kind of lower your guard and then exploit this thing that happened to you in a way to create contact and keep a secret.
- [18:40]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, I mean, pedophiles have to initiate touch at some point. You know, it's like, I see people tussle hair, and it just sends a shiver down my spine, you know, like, to the average person, hey, Billy. You know, it's, it's harmless for a pedophile. It's touching them. I'm touching them. And then from the tussle of the hair, it goes to, you know, patting the knee and then patting the thigh, and then it goes from there. You know, you gotta get. You gotta get your potential victim accustomed to touch from you. Like, nothing, Nothing's out of the ordinary, you know, and then. And then before you know it, you're ensnared in a trap.
- [19:25]
Mark Agnon
So he initiates both. He does touch and a secret simultaneously.
- [19:29]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. I mean, it's unbelievable without the Internet back then, how they all, like, came up with devising the same pattern of behavior to get a victim. You know, secrets, touch, alcohol, pornography, boom. Molestation. That's like all of them. It was the movie, it's still the M.O. and they have, you know, like, my girlfriend thinks I've got like this sixth sense to spot people who are broken or damaged. Like, because we'll, we're. We'll go somewhere and like, I'll. I'll bring up my story to the waitress, to the front desk person at a hotel, to the, to the Uber driver. And, and sure enough, they'll be like, me too. And she's like, it's so bizarre how you can do that. And it's the same thing, like, with predators. Like, like I said this in therapy one time. I'm like, how the heck do these predators, you know, it's like, it's like we have a beacon light above our head saying, I'm ripe for the pickings. You know, I had this open heart surgery scar that made me different from everybody else. And like, when you're a little kid, you just want to fit in with everybody. So here I got this scar and I feel different. I'm insecure about it. And, and this guy, like, smells blood in the water, you know, and so, so, you know, I. I interview people for my podcast, and they are. They are repeatedly abused throughout their childhood, into their adult life, over and over and over. And they're like, you know, I just don't know how they always found me. It's just like, you know, we're on that vibrational chart and we're at the bottom and the predators, you know, can feel we're at the bottom and, and they, they pounce on it, man.
- [21:31]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. So what happens from that moment and how do things sort of progress with.
- [21:36]
Clark Fredericks
With Dennis from that touching of the scar? Yeah, well, I mean he, he devoted years, like, you know, we're talking about, you know, the next six, seven years he's invested in, in my life, in my brother's life, not knowing and who knows how, how many other kids at the same time he has at various levels of the grooming process, you know, so, you know, he. The touching of the scar at six beers down at the lake in his truck at nine.
- [22:22]
Mark Agnon
So when you're nine years old, nine.
- [22:23]
Clark Fredericks
Years old, this was where, you know, we're down there all the time. It's, you know, the summer months and he's always, you know, coming by, you know, stopping his truck, teaching us how to fish, talking to us kids for hours. You know, like no adult should like be randomly spending hours with, with little children, like, right, because, like why right people, you just. That, that not that nice of a person. There's, there's a reason. So somebody, you know, the coach that really sees something in your kid and they're going to take them under the wing and like make them, you know, the star player or the piano player who's, you know, doing the private lessons and really thinks your, your daughter can really, you know, be a top notch pianist, you know, and you know, be aware, like it's just not normal for adults to be spending so much time with kids.
- [23:29]
Mark Agnon
Is this where the sunfish incident occurred?
- [23:32]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, it was around that, you know, 8, 9, 9 range. You know, he, he would catch sunfish, you know, when he's teaching us to, to fish. And he would smash them against the rocks or he'd throw it on the ground and pick up a big rock and smash it on top of it. And he would tell us, sunfish are a worthless fish. This is what you do to worthless things. And one day down at the dam area, there was a, you know, a wooden bridge, one lane wooden bridge that went across the river and it was, you know, pretty, pretty low to the water. And he stops on the bridge and he yells out his window to a group of us, I gotta go up the road for like 15 minutes. I want you guys to catch as many sunfish as you can and save them. And I'll be back. We're like, okay. So like sunfish like, you don't even have to like, put a worm on. You know, like, they're gullible. Another thing about sunfish, gullible, you know, like you can just put that shiny hook in and they'll, they'll bite on. At least down by the dam area they would. And so we catch a bunch of sunfish. He comes back and he's like, I want you to lay them all out on the bridge. He goes, I told you how worthless these are. And he goes, I'm going to run over him with my truck. So like, you know, we're like his little soldiers and we, we put the sunfish out on the bridge and he goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, squishing their guts out, popping their eyes out. And. And then he like has us, you know, pick them up with everything hanging out and throw them into the water. And that's what you do to worthless things. So whatever, you know, you could take this whole. I've asked all my therapists and you know, like, so, you know, like to get a therapeutic take on it and that, you know, he's equating you gullible little boys to sunfish. And when he's telling you that when he's done with you or finds you not useful, this is, you know, what.
- [25:49]
Mark Agnon
Could happen to you and you need to stay useful.
- [25:51]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [25:51]
Mark Agnon
Or else something bad will happen, Right?
- [25:53]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [25:54]
Mark Agnon
And what did you think as a nine year old, seeing like these, you know, innocent fish? I mean, it's a fish, but seeing them get killed, I mean, what was the feeling?
- [26:02]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, it was it, you know, like we just went through the motions to do what we had to do. But, you know, like, we're like, oh, gross, gross. You know, like, you know, we didn't go into more like thought process than that, like, other than just gross.
- [26:22]
Mark Agnon
Now at this point, you know, you have known him for, you know, 3ish years. His standing within the community was still solid. Oh yeah, he had a good reputation. There's no rumors about his behavior up until this point?
- [26:33]
Clark Fredericks
No.
- [26:34]
Mark Agnon
And how do things progress from here.
- [26:37]
Clark Fredericks
Progresses to wrestling matches? And he tells me he wrestled. He, he sets it up with. I used to wrestle your brother, who's six years older than me, and my next door neighbor directly across the street who was my brother's best friend. They're both six years older than me. I used to wrestle and they were both in the scouts. I used to wrestle with your brother and with Jeff and let's see how tough you are compared to them.
- [27:05]
Mark Agnon
And how old are you at this point?
- [27:07]
Clark Fredericks
I was 10.
- [27:08]
Mark Agnon
And how was he isolating you?
- [27:11]
Clark Fredericks
Oh, just he would, you know, like down at the dam, he'd be like, throw your bike in the back of my truck. Let's go over to the other. You know, the Polska river went from one end of the town down to another end. The fish aren't biting here. Let's, let's go over to the other side, you know, by the gristmill bridge and see how fish are there. And he would always slip into the water and get his sneaker wet or whatever he was wearing or his, you know, pant leg wet. Oh, we gotta go up to my house so I can change and then get me up, get me comfortable being at his house and I'll, you know, give me a beer wise while we're at the house. And you know, how many times that happened, I can't even tell you. You know, like going up to his house and him slipping in the water or whatever.
- [28:01]
Mark Agnon
That was really frequent.
- [28:03]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, half a dozen minimum.
- [28:08]
Mark Agnon
Wow.
- [28:08]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Over years.
- [28:10]
Mark Agnon
Wow.
- [28:13]
Clark Fredericks
So, you know, and this was all out of the eyes of my family, you know, like, everything's down at the lake. It's not like he's, he's, you know, when he's coming to the house, he's just coming to see Everybody and be Mr. Jovial, you know, and it's not like trying to. Other than that one time, time, you know, with my scar, when everybody was in the backyard and he had me in the den by myself.
- [28:37]
Mark Agnon
And if you went home to your parents that night and they were like, oh, what'd you do today? Would you ever mention like, oh, I was with Officer Peg.
- [28:43]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, I saw Dennis. And you know, we were fishing and.
- [28:45]
Mark Agnon
And they would say, oh, okay.
- [28:46]
Clark Fredericks
Oh, good, good, good. You know, at, at 10 years old you're having a beer. At nine years old, having a beer with the lieutenant in the sheriff's department. How cool is that? Like, why would you want to ruin that? Like, and he'd be like, you know, this has everything was our secret.
- [29:03]
Mark Agnon
So that was another secret.
- [29:04]
Clark Fredericks
Oh, yeah, yeah. The, you know, the, the beers obviously were, were a secret.
- [29:10]
Mark Agnon
How'd you drink?
- [29:11]
Clark Fredericks
And he would always, you know, have candy and gum to give me and, you know, make sure I don't have anything on my breath. Yeah. And so, so just one of the times going to his house, you know, let's, let's try wrestling. Let's see how tough you are. And, you know, so he would, he Would allow me to like, be the aggressor on top for a little while, I guess, till he got hard and excited and then it like. And I've heard this from so many other victims of abuse where like the eyes would literally change. You could see his eyes dilate and become dark and just his presence got dark and his everything about him changed. And so many other victims, you know, like, people I'll interview, they'll be like. And then their eyes changed. I'm like, you too? And like, and I've heard that like countless times and his eyes change and he becomes the aggressor and not realizing it then that he has a hard on but you know, would get me pinned to the ground and then gyrate on top of me. And look, you know, it wasn't till I looked back on it when I was older, like, you know, what he was doing.
- [30:31]
Mark Agnon
Of course.
- [30:32]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, so. So it progressed to that.
- [30:36]
Mark Agnon
And in these like wrestling matches, I mean, you can call them that, it's abuse, but when you leave them, did you feel like you were abused? Did you feel violated in a way or did you think like, oh, that was sort of an awkward, strange thing.
- [30:49]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Because I wasn't putting two and two together with the hard on, you know, the erect penis and what, you know, what he was doing.
- [31:00]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [31:00]
Clark Fredericks
You know, just like, you know, not trying to look any more into it than like, whatever, you know.
- [31:09]
Mark Agnon
So you were still able to operate in daily life without this baggage necessarily on your, on your, sort of your, your primary conscience?
- [31:17]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, it was at 11 and 12, you know, like things progress, you know, like, it's like I said, he's spending years with me just to go from touching the scar to now wrestling matches with a heart on. And over that time he's showing me pornography.
- [31:34]
Mark Agnon
When does that happen?
- [31:37]
Clark Fredericks
He, you know, down at the lake, you know, come in my truck and have a beer. He always had a six pack in his truck. And, and he's, you know, he's got this whole scenario where his friend just bought an old farmhouse and they were clearing it out and there was a desk left behind. And he opened up one of the drawers and it was filled with pornography. And I grabbed a handful of them and here, let's look at them. And they're like, okay, cool. You know, like thinking like, you know, oh, I might see some boobs or something, you know, and it's, it's just polaroids of close up penises. He's giggling and laughing, you know, and handing them to me. Aren't these so funny looking? And, you know, after X amount of amount of them that he handed over to me, I'm like, where's all the. Where's all the women? Then he's like, oh, those must have been in the other drawer. I'll grab some of them next time I'm over there. I'm like, all right, you know, and just, you know, so it's. It's testing me. It's getting me comfortable, you know, seeing penises, I guess. He's telling me how he was always going out west. And he told me how he met the Marlboro man, who was the guy portrayed on the back of the magazines back in the day, always smoking and the quintessential cool guy. And he tells me how he met the Marlboro man. And the Marlboro man confided in him that he's gay. And he's like, it didn't bother me at all. You know, he was the greatest guy in the world. We hung out for days out there. So, like, he's taken, like, the most macho, coolest guy in society and making him gay.
- [33:21]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [33:21]
Clark Fredericks
To, again, to test you, to get you comfortable with male and male behavior.
- [33:28]
Mark Agnon
But also conflating terminology here to try to make it seem as though your relationship is gay rather than pedophilic. Right. Like, he's using manipulative language to make it seem like, oh, yeah, we're just two guys doing stuff.
- [33:42]
Clark Fredericks
Right.
- [33:43]
Mark Agnon
Which is, again, another manipulative task.
- [33:45]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Like, you know, like, be gay, that's fine. But being gay and going after little boys is like, Right.
- [33:52]
Mark Agnon
Which is like, where you.
- [33:54]
Clark Fredericks
That's a totally different thing.
- [33:55]
Mark Agnon
And he's intentionally manipulating this language to put a label in your mind where you're like, oh, this is not pedophilic. Maybe he's trying to test you and prime you in that way, which, again, is just further, you know, manipulation. And so at this point, he's now done this overt sexual act with you, showing you pornography. The feeling you have when you leave that encounter, I'm sure it's probably a little bit.
- [34:19]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, just like, oh, that was. That was gross and weird.
- [34:22]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [34:22]
Clark Fredericks
You know, but like, all right, whatever. He grabbed, grabbed the wrong pictures out and that.
- [34:27]
Mark Agnon
Is that another secret?
- [34:28]
Clark Fredericks
And, like. And like, you know, thinking back on it, you know, like, you know, he would tell me how my brother and my next door neighbor Jeff would get so drunk at his house, he'd have to take their clothes off and put them to bed. And, you know, so Then I think back, you know, when I get old enough thinking back, like, oh. Or some of those Polaroids that he showed me, Jeff and my brother, you know, naked penis. You know, their penises and. Yeah, what the hell. Yeah. So.
- [35:05]
Mark Agnon
And so. Do you ever speak to anyone about these encounters specifically? Do you ever talk to your brother about it?
- [35:10]
Clark Fredericks
No. No.
- [35:11]
Mark Agnon
Does your brother ever talk about this guy to you? Does he ever say, like, oh, yo, you're. I see you're hanging out with Lieutenant Dennis or whatever? Does he ever have.
- [35:20]
Clark Fredericks
He doesn't. Again, he's not seeing.
- [35:23]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [35:23]
Clark Fredericks
Everything's down, like, lake area. Throw your bike in my truck.
- [35:29]
Mark Agnon
To the house.
- [35:29]
Clark Fredericks
To the house, to the, you know, just fishing, you know. Yeah, it was just out of the. The watchful eye.
- [35:37]
Mark Agnon
And at this point, still no rumors in the town. Everything's fine with this guy.
- [35:41]
Clark Fredericks
No rumors came out about a year after he had me.
- [35:45]
Mark Agnon
Okay.
- [35:45]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. So. So it leads up to the wrestling around 10. Then it went into oral sex. Him performing oral sex on me while jerking off at 11.
- [36:00]
Mark Agnon
And is that under the same pretense.
- [36:02]
Clark Fredericks
He got me to. It was a whole man just. He, he would set up these skits scenarios, let's say, where he's like, you know, we're at his house, he gives me a glass of BlackBerry brandy, this time with a beer, has me chug the BlackBerry brandy, and then says, let's play bumping logs. And he goes, I'll be right back. And, you know, he wore like cargo shorts. And he comes back into the room. He disappeared into his bedroom for a few minutes and comes back and it looked like he had stuck something in his shorts, not realizing it was his erect penis. And he's stand up and he, you know, it's summer. You know, I've got shorts on. If you ever look at the 1970s shorts, like, they're the gayest looking thing. It was like pedophiles designed them. Like, I googled it for some reason a couple years ago. I'm like, oh, man, look how gay they look, you know, like it's a pedophile's dream, those shorts. And he pulls me into him and he's like, your log's not ready. We're going to get your log ready. And he's giggling and I'm laughing, you know, I drank this bottle, a glass of BlackBerry. And he's like, sit on this chair. And he goes, no matter what happens, keep your eyes closed. He's like, don't open your eyes. I'm like, okay. And I'm sitting on his chair and in a second he slips my shorts down, starts blowing me and he's got his out masturbating. And I open my eyes like it just at a, like what the going on here? And he did what he did and just, you know, what, whatever, you know, whatever scenario at the end, you know, he came up with, you know, our secret, you know. You know, the thing was not to minimize, you know, but I'm not, I'm not seeing him on a daily basis. I'm not getting abused on a daily basis. So like, like it could get spread out for weeks or months, you know, before running into him again. So I'm. I can't, you know, I'm sure I saw him, you know, multiple times after that. But the next event that sticks out in my mind is when he me at 12. And that was the summer back then. They opened up a new high school and they took the elementary, seventh and eighth grade out of the elementary school and put it into the high school. So I graduated sixth grade. And in that summer, before going off to the high school to start seventh grade, is when he raped me. And he had this whole elaborate plan he wanted my help with. And we ended up at his house and again, BlackBerry. And it was, you know, it was a summer day and it seemed like, I don't know, I just had this suspicion he put his heat on because his house was sweltering. And it led to us being on his bed and sweating and taking our clothes off. And before you know it, he's got me in a bear hug me and I'm crying and screaming and this piece of garbage whispers in my ear. He's got me like where I can't move and whispers in my ear just another minute, you know, so that he can finish his deed. And he had a coon dog. Coon dogs have a long drawn out howl. And his dog was howling. He had a, you know, a back room and dog was just going nuts because of my screes, screams and cries. And we got done, you know, cleaned me up like a, like a great guy and sat me down at his kitchen table, got me another beer, you know, like, you know, like we're just two lovers who just had a nice romantic tryst or something and having a beer afterwards. And he brought his dog in, who's still howling and brought it right in front of me and said, I want to show you what will happen to you if you open up your mouth about what just occurred. And he began beating his dog and beating his Dog and beating his dog. And I'm screaming and I'm crying and I'm begging, begging him, please stop, Dennis, please, please, please, please, please stop. And he beat the dog. And the dog lay out a heap at my feet, and he goes, you will not talk about what just happened or that will happen to you. And, I mean, so what am I supposed to do after that? Like, go. Go running home to my parents and open up my mouth about what, like, what just happened? So he dropped me off down at the dam area with my bike, and I. I took my bike and I ran down the river, and I ditched my bike in the weeds, and I just stood by the river, and I was, like, rocking and hugging myself and. And crying a little. And my mind said, we are never going to talk about this. Talking about it is reliving it, and we are definitely not going to relive it. And that really, like, was the worst. Our minds try to protect us, and a lot of times they do the complete opposite of what we need. Like, I needed to. I needed to talk about it instantly, and instead, I clammed up, and I had gotten that Christmas. After that summer, I got a dirt bike and I began riding dirt bikes at our lake community. There was a track behind our house, and I avoided the dam area. Like, I just started riding dirt bikes with older kids at the lake and not going back to the dam area anymore. And that.
- [42:36]
Mark Agnon
That.
- [42:36]
Clark Fredericks
That dirt bite became, you know, like, my savior, you know, to get me away.
- [42:41]
Mark Agnon
What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because your food sucks. That's right. We live in a country where, unfortunately, a lot of the food we eat, even if you try to eat clean, is pesticides and seed oils and who knows what else is in your, you know, your Caesar wrap. And that is why it is important to supplement your food. This is what I do on a daily basis, and I do it with Symbiotica. Yes, I love symbiotica because it is the easiest way for me to supplement my food and get all the nutrients that I need that I should be getting for my food, but unfortunately, I don' because, you know, the world and capitalism or whatever. But with symbiotica, I'm able to get my magnesium, which I take every single night. That helps me to sleep. I take my colostrum, which is great for my gut health. It helps my skin, and it gives me an immune boost. And the thing that I'm most excited about is mineral shilajit. Shilajit is an ancient Mineral resin that literally comes from the Himalayas. It sounds crazy, but it's not. It's right here in this little jar, just little dab into some warm water. And since I've been taking it, I mean, it's full of, like, fulvic acid, you know, trace minerals, all the stuff you should be getting from your food, but you're not. And since I've been taking it, I feel sharper. My energy is more consistent and stable. I'm not reaching for the third coffee. Instead, the shilajit keeps me locked in. Another thing I love about Symbiotica is that instead of taking a handful of pills and people look at you like a crazy person, they just, they actually get curious. They see you taking this awesome little liquid gel pack that tastes amazing, and they go, oh, what is that? What are you taking right there? And I tell them I'm taking my Symbiotica for my health because I'm trying to live till I'm 180 years old. So if you're interested in reclaiming your health for the summer, feeling better, having more stable energy, and doing it in the tastiest way possible, go to symbiotica.com camp. Use the promo code camp and you will get 20% off your order and free shipping. If you go to symbiotica.com camp or click on, you know, the description, you'll see the links right there or even in the bottom of this banner. Now let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you own a small business, or maybe you work for a small business, and I am about to make your life, life so much easier. Let's say, hypothetically, you own a little, you know, furniture business, right? And you're struggling to keep track of the raw materials, the production schedule, invoicing clients, all that stuff. Well, that's why I want to tell you about Odoo. Okay? Because with Odoo, it's an all in one business platform that streamlines everything. Now, you have inventory management, you have manufacturing, you have accounting apps that will make everything so simple. So now if you have a small business, you can monitor the inventory in real time, schedule production calls more effectively, and you can send invoices automatically, all from one platform. Plus, you get a customized CRM to track sales leads and follow up with potential clients, boosting your closing rates. Back in the day, you'd probably have to get, you know, some, you know, Ivy League operator, business person that's, you know, able to make everything happen for you. But now with Odoo, it cuts it all out. And I'm sure you're thinking, okay, if this is going to make my life easier, give me more free time to spend with my friends, family and playing softball and make me more money. It must be crazy expensive. This is the good news. Listeners of this program are gonna get a 14 day free trial. That's right. You get two weeks with Odoo completely for free when you go to odoo.com camp. That's right, odoo.com. use the promo code camp. And you will get 14 days for free just to try it out, see if you like it. If it's not for you, you don't need it. All right? But Odoo is gonna make your life so much easier. Everything you need, all in one place. Save time, make more money. Now let's get back to the show. How different is life before and after the incident? Is it? Yeah.
- [46:01]
Clark Fredericks
Everything, everything changed after. You know, I mean, even somehow at 11 with the blow job, I was able to just disconnect from that. But the changed, everything, it changed. I, I had been an altar boy in the Episcopal church. Boom. I'm done with God. You know, like back then, you know, the old crusty ministers, you know, like, you do good and good things will happen to you. You step out of line and you incur God's wrath, you know, during his sermons. And like, what the f. Could I have done to incur God's wrath for this to have happened to me?
- [46:38]
Mark Agnon
That I did everything right and this is how I get repaid.
- [46:40]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. And like, like, you know, I didn't learn to a lot later on that we have free will and, and free will you can use for good or for evil. You know, it's not like God was allowing this to happen. You know, God can't be. We want God to be the superhero, you know, who's going to save the train from going off the tracks or the boat from, you know, capsizing, you know, or, or, or, or, or the Boy Scout from getting, you know, if God, if God is doing all those things, the plane from crashing and what's the sense of life, you know, like we're just puppets then, right? And God is in the sky, you know, controlling everything. So. But at the time, that's what it felt like, you know, like it didn't seem like free will. Nobody had ever taught me about free will. You know, it just seemed like God had let me down and. Yeah, done with it.
- [47:42]
Mark Agnon
And, and Then as far as school goes, relationships with friends.
- [47:46]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, school. I realized I was a smart kid and could do absolutely zero and get passing grades. And that's what I did. I did. I let my guard down one time, whether it was seventh or eighth grade in an English class, we had to write a. The teacher gave every student a letter in the Alphabet and you had to write a one page short story using that letter of the. That you got assigned to start words, as many words as you possibly can. I got assigned the letter S and I still have that essay. And I wrote about being a ship, a slave on a ship where the shipmaster is a gay guy who's trying to come into my bunk at night to molest me. And I'm beating him with a metal pipe at night. And like, I got this whole like one page scenario of this going on and the teacher gives me an A and writes, good job. Use more paragraphs next time. Like, just like it's perfectly fine for 12, 13 year old to be writing about gay guys trying to get into his bed at night and beating him with a pipe.
- [49:01]
Mark Agnon
I mean, absurd. No one ever talked about it?
- [49:04]
Clark Fredericks
No, no, no. And then after, after that, I was.
- [49:11]
Mark Agnon
Was.
- [49:11]
Clark Fredericks
I was a clam. That was it. Like, I let.
- [49:13]
Mark Agnon
Was that a. Were you trying to get.
- [49:15]
Clark Fredericks
I can't recall. Like how, like, I had forgotten about that essay. And when I got arrested, my mother found it. She went through like my childhood stuff and she's like, oh my God, how did I never see this? How did nobody bring this to my attention? She gave it to my lawyer and, you know, then my lawyer made a copy for me to read. And I was like, I'm like, I vaguely remember writing that, you know, just broken and my pain and trauma pouring out of me, you know.
- [49:47]
Mark Agnon
And then as far as your relationships with friends.
- [49:50]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, I was. And, you know, this is what a lot of us do, you know, like, I just put on a false face. You know, we have two faces, you know, the one we show the world, the one behind closed doors, the one I showed the. The world was just like, positive, happy, go Lucky Clark, you know, Mr. Friendly Sociable. My teacher. My mother worked in the school. She was in the library. You know, maybe. Maybe this teacher thought, you know, like, Joan. Joan would obviously know if something was going on. This is just Clark with a wild imagination, you know, and so the teachers, you know, liked me. I was real popular with friends and, you know, my classmates.
- [50:44]
Mark Agnon
And did you have other coping mechanisms immediately after the event? So you mentioned the dirt Bike. But were there other, like, was music or anything else?
- [50:52]
Clark Fredericks
Just weed. Weed. And then it morphed into drinking. In high school, alcohol became easy to get. My. My bro back then they had paper licenses. When I was a freshman, my brother gave in. The drinking age was 18. My brother, you know, tossed me his expired paper license with his date of birth. And like, nobody even, like, looked at that. It was expired and just I was able to get served wherever.
- [51:24]
Mark Agnon
And were you angry?
- [51:31]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, but my anger isn't showing in those years. You know, like the rage is building. You know, like the anger is building. It's. It's, you know, it's like a snowball just starting off down the hill. This pain doesn't diminish as the years go on. It. It grows. And my rage grew as years went on and, And. And you know, you think you can just bury it, but it's. It's gonna come out in destructive ways. And, you know, my life just, you know, should have been filled with so much promise, and I just like, squandered everything and just sabotaged everything, every romantic relationship, you know, so I, you know, so the, you know, the, you know, the high school years were, you know, a drunken blur. Sports, you know, I played basketball two years, quit the other year, got injured the other year, just gave up on sports.
- [52:44]
Mark Agnon
And what was it? Was that a general apathy towards life?
- [52:47]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, just like not being able to apply myself. Just not having that internal fortitude to want to study, to want to excel at sports.
- [52:59]
Mark Agnon
Just looking back, would you say you were depressed?
- [53:04]
Clark Fredericks
Oh, God, yeah. I mean, just, it. It was exhausting just living that dual life of having, you know, like, can't let mom see me at school. Like, like, you know, being goth, wearing goth clothes and, you know, having a frown on my face and, you know, looking all down and out. Gotta be, you know, you know, Mr. Cheerful, you know, don't want my teachers to know, you know, that something's amiss with me. Gotta keep that smile cranked on, you know, same for my classmates, you know, and it's exhausting when you feel the complete opposite inside and you gotta. You gotta live that. That lie.
- [53:44]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. And you can't help but wonder if even, like, the psychological effects or even like the sunfish moment of, like, this is what happens if you're. If you're worthless. And even just that tape playing in your head to other adults, like, I'm not going to be worthless. I'm going to be a good kid that does good things and, you know, I'm going to be friendly and be accepted by the group, and that. That will protect me and that will make sure nothing like this happens again. And the constant battle to put that on every single day.
- [54:11]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [54:12]
Mark Agnon
Must be draining you.
- [54:13]
Clark Fredericks
It was draining, man. It was exhausting. You know, like, my whole life is. You know, I tell everybody I live the most exhausting life. Just you become hypervigilant, like, later on in life. Like, it. It. My life became pedal to the metal. Like, there was no mindfulness and meditation and sitting calmly and deep breathing and yoga, you know? No, bro, it was like, we gotta outrun this pain, and we're gonna go full steam ahead, and we're gonna ride this wave until it crashes, and, you know, let's see what happens.
- [54:49]
Mark Agnon
And drugs and alcohol are a great escape for that.
- [54:51]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:52]
Mark Agnon
You get this thing.
- [54:53]
Clark Fredericks
The problem with drugs and alcohol is they work. Yeah. You know, they work until they don't. But. But.
- [54:59]
Mark Agnon
So you get access to weed and you're smoking regularly?
- [55:01]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My father. You know, my father. My father found it in my room. He threatened to send me to military school, you know, and, you know, and you and I talked, you know, before we started this, my. My father. Rumors did come out finally about this guy. He. He worked at the jail as a lieutenant in the sheriff's department, and rumors came out about him taking newly released young male inmates home to mentor them and then molesting them at his house. And how this got out is these. These young guys would run out of his house in the middle of the night and be hitchhiking through little Stillwater. I mean, Stillwater is exactly what it sounds like. It's, you know, a one horse, and people would pick him up. You know, hitchhiking was normal, you know, in 70s, 80s, 90s. You know, now it's, like, not a big thing. And when people would pick him up, you know, they would say, like, this guy Dennis just, you know, he offered me to get back on my feet and to help me, and, you know, I woke up in the middle of the night, he's on top of me, trying to help me and trying to molest me, and. And that spread like wildfire through Stillwater. And my father caught wind of this, and he. He sat me down one day, and he said, son, I want to ask you a question. He said, I'm hearing some disturbing rumors about Dennis taking inmates home from the jail and trying to molest them or molesting them. Has he ever touched you? And I just couldn't bring myself to like, say it. I'm like, no, dad, he's never touched me. He's like, all right. And like, a year or so later, like, when I was around 15, a classmate of mine who had been in the scouts with me from Stillwater, his mother worked at as a waitress at the local Dunkin Donuts. And my father was in there having a coffee one day, and she's telling my father how her son Michael was repeatedly by Dennis. And my father came home from that and, you know, sat me down again, and this time he said, son, I'm going to ask you something, and I just want you to know before you answer, you'll never have to go to the police. You'll never have to testify in court. I will handle this myself. And he told me the story about, you know, what the mother said about Michael. And he goes, just tell me if Dennis has ever touched you. And, you know, I'll take care of Dennis myself. So, you know, in my mind, you know, my father's saying, I. I'll go kill Dennis. You know, that's how I took it. And. And, you know, that that's a lot of pressure, like, over the next few weeks, you know, like, I said. I said no again to him. And then it just, like, was eating at me, you know, whether to tell him. And I'm like, man, what if, you know, Dennis kills my dad? You know, my dad goes to get him, and my dad ends up getting killed, and that's on me, or my dad has to go to prison. That's on me. And I just. I just kept quiet about it.
- [58:21]
Mark Agnon
What is that emotion when you're saying no, but your mind is saying yes?
- [58:27]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, like, my mind's screaming, like, let's tell him. Let's tell him.
- [58:30]
Mark Agnon
Let's tell him.
- [58:30]
Clark Fredericks
Let's be done with this shit. And then the words just come out. No day.
- [58:36]
Mark Agnon
And is the feeling fear of retribution from Dennis?
- [58:39]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, that fear's been instilled in you. It's also like, do you. You know, like, do you want to be known as the damaged boy now? You know, like, in college, I met the love of my life, and, like, she would see me get lost in my thoughts and ask me, like, where'd you just go in your mind? And I'd make it out like she was nuts, you know? Cause I want to be, you know, the cool, party animal, hot, sexy boyfriend. Not the broken, wounded, you know, damaged boyfriend. You know, the two didn't mesh in my mind.
- [59:24]
Mark Agnon
So if you could just get rid of the damaged one and you know, we can move on.
- [59:28]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Just like there's no need to tell her about what happened. You know, there's no need to tell my dad. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to open up this Pandora's box. And it's the worst, you know, like my mind told me down at the river at 12 after that, like, we are not going to talk about this.
- [59:46]
Mark Agnon
Yeah, this is done.
- [59:47]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. And like I, I let my guard down with that essay I wrote and, you know, and that was it, you.
- [59:57]
Mark Agnon
Know, now it seems like your dad unfortunately was doing the right thing. Like, I don't think his actions were negligent necessarily. They just might have been sort of misguided in the way that he put pressure on you in that moment. So I'm curious, like, if you had advice for parents that maybe are dealing with a kid that had experienced a predator like this, what should they say instead?
- [60:19]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, like I, I've said how my dad blew it when he found the weed. Like, like, like he found a pipe, papers and a bag of weed in my room at 12 and threatened to send me to military school. Like, I invested. I, I already investigated a school down by Philadelphia and this ends right now or else your ass is going to be sent off to military school. Like, instead, like, this is your opportunity, dude, like, to sit me down and have a heart to heart. Like, son, why at 12 years old are you smoking this crap? Like, what's going on in your world, you know, that, that you feel you need to do this, you know, like, talk to me instead. It was the military, you know, the, the hard line approach, you know, he's like, I went through this shit with your brother and I'm not going through it with you. You're not putting me through the same stuff your brother has put us through. He goes, so this ends right now or else you're off to military school. So my advice would be open up lines of communication. You know, no matter how upset or disappointed you are with your child over their destructive behavior, there's a reason for it. Find out what that reason is. My dad didn't do that. So in that aspect, he blew it.
- [61:41]
Mark Agnon
Do you think asking a kid straight up like, hey, has this person touched you? Is that adequate questioning in the work that you've done with other abuse survivors? Or should it be phrased in a different way?
- [61:53]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, everybody asked me, how do you get a kid to open up? You know, and it's just, it's it's just trust and lines of communication and gentleness, you know, because if you suspect that kids. Something's happened, they've experienced horror and, like, you just can't say, tell me. Tell me what happened.
- [62:21]
Mark Agnon
Right. It's just like you can barely get an adult to be honest.
- [62:24]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. You know, so. Yeah, it's just. It takes patience, you know? Might I just have to say, like, I am always here for you, you know, when you're ready, if something has happened and you can come to me anytime, there's not gonna be any judgment. There's not gonna be any freaking out. I love you. I wanna help you. Let's talk, you know, instead of. Instead of the hard line approach. You gotta tell me what happened and I'm gonna go kill the guy. Yeah, of course. It's just not gonna. Yeah, like I said, it was just too. That was too much on me after what I've already been.
- [62:58]
Mark Agnon
I wonder if art could be a helpful sort of conduit for conversation for kids in this regard. Like taking them through, like, an essay, like the way you did, or drawing or painting.
- [63:08]
Clark Fredericks
Well, that nowadays, you know, like a kid back in the 70s or 80s would get taken into a police barracks, you know, the state police barracks, or the local town cop, you know, into usually a windowless room, concrete and a desk, and a detective, you know, probably with a cigarette dangling out of his mouth. So, you know, what happened to your kids, kid, you know, nowadays, they. They take you to. Like in our town is Ginny's house. It's. It's for abused children, and it's a therapeutic setup and it's, you know, light tone, colors and toys and games and. And they. They, you know, get the kids comfortable in there. And it's. It's a. It's a calming place to get them to open up about what happened.
- [64:05]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [64:06]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. So, I mean, that's. That's the approach you're gonna take.
- [64:09]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. Yeah. It's just. Yeah. I can see why these channels for kids are so important to have space for them to open up, honestly. And not without the coercion or the pressure. You know, you take a kid down to a police station, the fear of, oh, am I gonna do something wrong? Am I gonna put my.
- [64:26]
Clark Fredericks
Am I gonna get arrested? Right? I mean, and something I always think about, you get pulled over by a cop for speeding, your heart starts racing out of your heart or out of your chest.
- [64:35]
Mark Agnon
I put my keys on the hood still, or I'll put them on the roof. And I remember talking to People being like, why do you do that? I was in a very white suburb of Florida and I was like, oof, I don't want to mess around. So I couldn't imagine being a kid and having this happen. And something I think about with childhood trauma in general, outside of even just sexual trauma, but just all trauma is. I'm curious if this sort of resonated for you, but I've heard that when children are traumatized, specifically by people that they trust, they don't have the emotional apparatus to look at their abuser or their traumatizer and say like, oh, that's a bad person. Instead they hold the esteem of that person that did it. And they say, I must be a bad person. I must be someone that's worth treating poorly. And as a result, they create this real negative sense of self. And they, you know, if their parents are abusive, they say, my parents are good, I'm bad, which is why I'm being treated this way. Way instead of having the emotional maturity to say, no, they are broken in this moment, or they're doing something wrong to an innocent kid and that they hold on and sort of internalize all the pain that has happened to them. And I imagine it's probably similar in your case that this thing happens from someone you trust and the rest of your teen years you just go, I'm bad, I'm worthless and this thing that happened to me is my fault. And just suppressing all of those emotions.
- [65:54]
Clark Fredericks
Self hate, hatred, and the self loathing just like, is just like building an enormous, you know, you know, you ask about hate and rage, you know, you're hating yourself, you know, and then the rage starts, you know, to build over the years.
- [66:13]
Mark Agnon
So then you eventually go to college.
- [66:15]
Clark Fredericks
I go to college, yeah.
- [66:16]
Mark Agnon
And college is fine. You have a decent time?
- [66:20]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to Northeastern University up in Boston and I did great in school. You know, I had schooled down to a science where I could study for, you know, three, four days and I could be a blackout drunk for three, four days. And I tried cocaine, this is in the 80s. Tried cocaine in college. Absolutely loved it. Like just instantly took away all that self loathing and feeling weak and insecure and just made me feel outgoing and confident and strong and powerful. Met the love of my life back then. You know, Northeastern's a five year school. We dated, you know, off and on for the five years and then afterwards, and she wanted to, you know, start our lives and get married and start a family and, you know, I could have sex with all I wanted, I could. I could say I love you, but intimacy, getting married and being intimate and living together and being intimate, I just couldn't do it. And I told her I couldn't do it, and. And she's just like, why? You know, like, we've been together for so long, what are we. What are we doing here? And I just told her I just can't get married. And she's like, I got to go in a different direction. Then I was like, all right. And, you know, that's the trickle down effect of what this animal did to me. You know, had I. Had I gotten together with her, though, you know, like, it would have just been a train wreck, you know, I would have. I would have made her life hell, you know, so she haunted me for.
- [68:09]
Mark Agnon
30 years, you know, so in that moment when you're saying, no, you don't have a cognizant feeling of, like, oh, because of my trauma and the baggage that I'm dealing with, I'm unable to have intimacy. The feeling in your brain is just on fire. Like, hey, connection is dangerous. I can't let this person get close.
- [68:26]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, it was just. Yeah, it wasn't like, I've been. I've been abused. I can't have it. That's not going on. What's going on is, oh, my God, I'm suffocating and I'm starting to have a panic attack. I can't breathe. I'm drowning. The answer's no. Like, no, I gotta. I gotta get out of here, you know, so that. That was the experience and the culture.
- [68:50]
Mark Agnon
Of therapy at this time.
- [68:52]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, there was nothing back then. You know, like, there was no organizations back then. Like, I just mentioned Ginny's house in my town. There was nothing back, you know, like, back then you went to a state police barracks or a local cop shop. Shop there. There was no organizations. The cops were the only one. This guy was a law enforcement officer. He's lieutenant. So that avenue was cut off. So there, you know, I. I tell people nowadays, I'm like, we are so lucky nowadays. Like, with the Internet, like, you can go on and, and connect with somebody around the world, you know, have an AA meeting around the world or. Or connect with abuse victims around the world. You know, back back when our parents and our grandparents and their parents, like, whatever trauma they had, like, they just had to suck it up and grab a bottle of vodka and get through it.
- [69:45]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [69:46]
Clark Fredericks
You know, there was, you know, the therapy was just for the elites in New York City. You Know, back then, you know, therapy wasn't for the average Joe.
- [69:54]
Mark Agnon
So basically from graduation for the next 20 years of your life is marred with drugs, alcohol, and a search for a thrill.
- [70:04]
Clark Fredericks
You could say, you know, you, you look for the quick fix. Yeah. And, and, and that was like, as soon as you feel uncomfortable, you got to fix it, you know, like there is no delaying gratification, you know, for, for the greater good down the road. It's like, like I need gratification right now, immediately. And, and, and that's what I became. Just, you know, looking, looking like a junkie looking for gratification, instant gratification, anytime, you know, I felt uncomfortable.
- [70:40]
Mark Agnon
And what would sitting with that discomfort bring off? Like, what would that feel like?
- [70:45]
Clark Fredericks
Just like, that's why I say, like, you become hyper vigilant. You just become on the, on the run, on the go. Like there was no sitting, feeling uncomfortable.
- [70:55]
Mark Agnon
Is that that suffocating feeling you mentioned before?
- [70:57]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, just. Yeah, you're running from that pain. Like you're constantly trying to stay one step ahead of it. You know, whether it's from drugs and alcohol, whether it's from sex, you know, like my 20s were just a blur of sex. Like just one night stands. Like, I'll prove that I'm a man. I'll get rid of this insecurity. Just if I sleep with enough women, this insecurity, this self loathing will go away, you know, so like I, I was, I was just a revolving door in my 20s. And it left me like, that's adding more trauma because I'm hurting all sorts of women along the way just to gratify myself in their catching feelings for me. And I'm just like. And you know, that was my whole 20s into my 30s, you know, just doing that, you know, like drugs, Drugs weren't a big thing in my 20s, you know, if, if, if we went out, you know, and I'm just saying sporadically, once in a blue moon and somebody's like, well, let's, you know, let's get some coke and get a bag of coke for a night going out, that would be a rarity. You know, I went years without doing cocaine in my 20s. Just sex, though. Sex and drinking, those were my drugs then.
- [72:26]
Mark Agnon
And you were holding a job in that point as well?
- [72:28]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was going through jobs. Like I got, I got, I got out of college. My father put up money for me to become a partner in a tire retreading shop. My brother was in the tire business. My, my father Was a salesman for Goodyear. He thought, oh, let's have all three sons in the tire industry. And so he put up money, you know. So here I got this great education and went and became a partner in a tire shop with a retired trooper friend of my dad's. And it just imploded, you know, like within three years it was done. Like just my father's relationship with this best friend fell apart. I was stuck in the middle and I just like after I was like a pawn between the two of them and I was just like f this and I left and I got a job on Wall Street. I got, I was working on Wall street, living out in Jersey, still commuting in. I did that for a couple years, walked away from that. I worked for a buddy in. My grandmother had, my grandfather had died, my grandmother had gotten murdered, which is the whole thing we can go into. And each, each grandchild inherited some money and I took my money to buy a fixer upper house. And my buddy was in construction. So I started working with him in construction to learn how to redo the house. And you know, he and I worked on it and when we fixed it up, up, then I went to work for him for a couple years doing construction and then, and then blew that off after a while.
- [74:15]
Mark Agnon
And what is that, what is the, the nature of getting a job, doing it for a few years, excelling and then letting it go.
- [74:27]
Clark Fredericks
Feeling trapped. And trapped is how I felt at his house.
- [74:33]
Mark Agnon
It's the suffocation again.
- [74:34]
Clark Fredericks
I was, I was an animal in a snare when I would go to his house and I, I would feel trapped in relationships, you know, like I was the greatest boyfriend for three months. Like you would have a, you would have a blast for those three months. But then you'd be like, you know, it's just overwhelming after a while. Like it's, you know, a non stop party and sex fest. It's like is, you know, it would start off great and then she says.
- [74:59]
Mark Agnon
Where are we going?
- [75:00]
Clark Fredericks
And then it would be like, can we do something normal? And you know, can we start like, you know, see ya, you know.
- [75:08]
Mark Agnon
And the jobs probably had a similar.
- [75:10]
Clark Fredericks
Effect and the same thing too. Like I, I don't want to be trapped in a job. I'm not, I'm never going to feel trapped again, you know, so it was always just cutting and running, cutting and running.
- [75:19]
Mark Agnon
You're going to be a partner in this thing and you'll work in Wall street and you'll be tied to this and then you'll get your retirement and your pension for 20 years later.
- [75:27]
Clark Fredericks
And you're like, no, yeah, I don't think so.
- [75:29]
Mark Agnon
I'm not thinking about being tied to anything.
- [75:32]
Clark Fredericks
You'll take the money, you inherited it and start flipping houses left and right. Right?
- [75:38]
Mark Agnon
Because anything that was some type of long term intimacy, even if it was professional intimacy, was still too much to handle.
- [75:45]
Clark Fredericks
So like, and in my life has been a non stop trauma. Like it's not just the trauma from that, you know, like, like I mentioned my brother and my next door neighbor at 17, when I'm 17, my next door neighbor puts a shotgun in his mouth and blows his head off next door. Having been in the scouts with this guy in my early 20s, my grandfather died when I was a senior in high school. They had a, a house right on the water down in Naples, Florida. Beautiful place. My grandmother, you know, my father and his sister, my aunt tried to get her to move into like a retirement community. You know, she's like, are you nuts? She's like, this is paradise. Why would I move out of here? Some guy breaks into their house, she's 80 years old, ties her up, tortures her or kills her. He was in a gay love affair with his, her next door neighbor and the guy broke up with him and he went to go kill her. Kill him. And he wasn't home. And for whatever bizarre, insane reason, he's like, I'll go next door and I'll kill the old lady next door. And the cops, I remember my father saying, like, the cops don't want to tell all that she went through in the last minutes of her life. You know, they just, they just said, let's just say he tortured her. She was bound. Tortured and killed is how they summed it up. You don't, you guys don't need to know any more than that.
- [77:30]
Mark Agnon
And this guy served trial and went to prison.
- [77:33]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, he stole her car. He had walked to the guy's house to kill him and then like an idiot, stole her car. And that's how they caught him. And he got sentenced to life in Florida prison. What the. Yeah, so like that was a whole triggering event for me as well as, you know, bringing up, you know, some, my, you know, my, my, my next door neighbor, you know, 17, I got my own been trauma I'm dealing with. And then he blows his head off. And I'm thinking, is, is that going to be my destiny? You know, is that, is that what's going to wait for me down the road? Am I going to get to that point, you know, did that seem out.
- [78:14]
Mark Agnon
Of the question at that point?
- [78:16]
Clark Fredericks
Out of the question? Yeah, it seemed like this is, this.
- [78:20]
Mark Agnon
Is my fate, that this pain will build up over time, and that will.
- [78:25]
Clark Fredericks
Be the only way. This is what, this is where I'll get to in life.
- [78:29]
Mark Agnon
Did that scare you?
- [78:35]
Clark Fredericks
I would say haunted me. It haunted me throughout my life, would be the word.
- [78:41]
Mark Agnon
And then these later traumatic events again, they're traumatic in their own right, but they're also bringing up these triggers for you and bringing up these other feelings.
- [78:51]
Clark Fredericks
Like hearing my grandmother's been murdered, you know, and my friend murders himself. And, you know, Jeff, my next door neighbor, is like a brother to me, you know, with the three of us, you know, like they were the older, big, big brothers. But, you know, he was literally like a brother. And, you know, so that was devastating to me. Jeff's death really haunted me.
- [79:13]
Mark Agnon
And at any point in the wake of that, did you consider, oh, I, is this something that I is worth talking about? That this might be something that happened to him? Did it tickle in the back of your head?
- [79:24]
Clark Fredericks
It was always, you know, like, let's suck it up there, big boy, and put our shoes on and go about our business, you know.
- [79:33]
Mark Agnon
How did Jeff's death affect your brother?
- [79:40]
Clark Fredericks
I won't, you know, really know, you know, but my, my brother, you know, was a hard charging guy his whole life, but he was able, he was able to start a business, become very successful with his tire automotive center, get married, have a family. And you know, one of my therapists asked me, you know, like, Clark, in your 20s and 30s, did you, did you focus on the abuse or was it, you know, like in the peripheral vision of your mind? And I thought, and I'm like, you know, like, I would have these triggering events that would like, send me into a slide and into a depression and, and, but I'm not, I'm not necessarily equating my grandmother's murder to Dennis Pegg. I'm not, I, I, I did equate Jeff's suicide to Dennis and that you asked about the rage, that's when the rage started. Like, I just became seething that I equated Dennis killed Jeff. And that is where, where my, up till that point, it was all just self hatred. Jeff's death started the rage towards Dennis. That's when it flipped for me.
- [80:59]
Mark Agnon
Now, at this point, in your 20s, into your 30s, you'd never seen Dennis again.
- [81:04]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, like, occasionally, like I remember, like maybe home from college and going out to a bar with My friends and he happened to be in the bar, and I would. I drove, and we had just gotten her beer. And I turn and I see Dennis there, and he's like. And I'm like, he waves to you? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, they have no shame, these. These predators. Like, no shame at all. And I chugged my beer, and I'm like, to my friends, we gotta go. Let's get out of here.
- [81:42]
Mark Agnon
Here.
- [81:42]
Clark Fredericks
They're like, we just got here. I'm like, there's no women here. We're gonna go hit another bar where there's women. I'm driving. You can either stay or we're going. You know, like, very forceful, like, let's rock and roll. Like, I'm not staying here. They're like, all right, whatever, bro. You know, they chug their beer and they're like, you know, busted me. Like, what the. Dude, what the hell? And, like, gotta get out of there. I dated a girl in my late 30s and 40s, and I don't recall this, but we were head. Our friend's house for a party, and she said we were at a stop sign, and Dennis Pegg came and made the left to come up alongside, up, up the road, you know, by us. And, like, I just went nuts and started spitting and. And punching the steering wheel and cursing. And she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, dennis? And she's like, dennis who? And I'm like, peg. And she's like, what about him? I'm like, he's a scumbag. And he just went by, and she's like, all right, all right, calm down. And she, you know, says, I proceeded to get bombed that night, and, you know, she had to drive me home and stuff, you know, But I don't recall that.
- [83:01]
Mark Agnon
I mean, it's strange how even just the sight of someone can trigger those feelings internally. Like, your blood running cold, your heart starts to beat. Like, you know, that. That sensation just from the proximity to the person that caused this. And I'm sure that's probably what you felt. Is that. That feeling of, like, just a full body rush, anger, all those feelings flooding back in one moment?
- [83:22]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like Rip, you know, ripping the band aid off. And, you know, that wound is. Is there, you know, like, I'm keeping a band aid on everything, you know, But I've never addressed that wound.
- [83:34]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [83:34]
Clark Fredericks
You know, so that wound's there and it's building, and it's just waiting.
- [83:39]
Mark Agnon
One of the things that you mentioned in Another interview that in your late teens you got into like pyro and like lighting fires.
- [83:45]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, that was when I was younger. Yeah, that's, you know, like I lit everything, like everything on fire. I lit our house on fire. I lit the leaves on fire where like the whole backyard was on fire.
- [83:56]
Mark Agnon
Now I've heard this to be the case amongst people with different types of trauma that fire becomes sort of a, I don't know, like some type of hobby or some type of thing to sort of like work through anger or resentment. Can, I don't know, through your therapy.
- [84:10]
Clark Fredericks
I didn't know anything about. I never put two and two together until, I mean, you know, this is going to get us a little ahead. But again, when I was in prison I got therapy for the first time and I was in a group therapy class and our, our therapist said, how many of you have ever played with fire there when you were younger? Every hand went up.
- [84:31]
Mark Agnon
What is that?
- [84:32]
Clark Fredericks
And she's like, how many of you have ever shoplifted? Every hand went up and she's like, those are signs of childhood abuse.
- [84:39]
Mark Agnon
And, and do you know why or have you read any explanations?
- [84:44]
Clark Fredericks
Did I. I've looked at it a couple times over the years. I can't, like I would be sort of making it up.
- [84:56]
Mark Agnon
Sure. But for you as a kid, when you were doing it, was there any type of feeling where you were like, oh, this is, I mean, because I think kids sort of play with fire in general, like lighting fireworks and stuff. But I mean maybe to the nature that you were doing were like lighting the house on fire is maybe a different level. But I'm curious, when it was happening, was there any type of conscious thought like, oh, this feels good to see these things.
- [85:14]
Clark Fredericks
Like maybe it's a control thing. Like you're, you know, like you're, you're, you're in control of this, of a dangerous thing?
- [85:21]
Mark Agnon
Yeah, yeah. And then maybe shoplifting is kind of like this sort of rush and it's something that's bad but you're in control once again.
- [85:29]
Clark Fredericks
Yep. H yeah.
- [85:31]
Mark Agnon
What's up guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you are a grown child. Yes. You're a giant manchild and you just love stuff in your face. And all the sugary cereals you ate when you were a kid, when you're just a fat little 8 year old, you would sit down on your couch and you would just eat these, these sugary cereals. And nowadays days you try to do that, like I have, you feel Terrible. You go, oh, yeah, my blood pressure is rising. I do get a hangover from eating these cereals that I ate when I was a child. And that's what I want to talk to you about. Magic Spoon. This thing right here, freshly opened because I was just engorging myself. Magic Spoon is all the flavors that you love that come from your favorite nostalgic cereals. Flavors like fruity cocoa, frosted. Do those sound familiar to you? Because legally I can't say what they are, but those are the flavors that Magic Spoon has. And here's what's amazing about Magic Spoon. It's the same taste. It's all the flavor packed into every bite from those childhood cereals. But 13 grams of protein, 0 grams of sugar, and 4 grams of net carbs. Yeah, imagine that, 13 grams of protein. This is protein packed cereal. So instead of being a little fat kid kid, you can sit down on Sunday morning watching cartoons and get freaking jacked. Yeah, you'll look like Ronnie Coleman or something. You keep on crushing these, you're gonna be diesel as hell. So instead of being a little fat boy, you can be a giant strong man but still keep your same habits of just sitting down and watching your cartoons. And for the listeners of this program, if you go to magicspoon.com camp, that's right, magicspoon.com camp C A M P. You're gonna get $5 off your next order. Five whole dollars. You can save, shave and apply to therapy for figuring out your disgusting, twisted childhood of stuffing your face with processed sugars and red dye.40 and stuff like that. But with Magic Spoon, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. It's all good. 13 grams of protein, none of the sugar, 4 grams of carbs. Get it today, Magic Spoon on Amazon or at your nearest grocery store. Or you can go to magicspoon.com camp c a m p for $5 a off and let's get back to the show, you fatty. What's up, guys? We need to talk skin care. That's right. If you've ever heard me on flagrant or even on this show, I have talked about my love for beef tallow. Yes. I'm not talking about some, you know, lab made sludge with 39 syllables and a bunch of chemicals and stuff. I'm talking about good old fashioned beef tallow. Just. Yes, it's cow fat. I know it sounds crazy, but there's a reason that people have used this for, for thousands of years. This is the moisturizer that your ancestors Used before, you know, big lotion and chemicals and pharma companies came and messed it all up with seed oil scams and chemical cocktails. All right? Tallow has been used for thousands of years. The ancient Egyptians walking through the desert, they put on beef tallow to make their skin look good and feel good and not crack and actually hold up in the elements. Greeks and Romans, they used it to heal wounds and keep their skin from looking, you know, like papyrus. And even your great great grandma, she probably used it, I don't know. And here's the great thing with beef tallow. It's got a bunch of, you know, fat soluble, you know, vitamins A, D, E and K. And it actually mimics your skin's natural oils because it comes from a living thing. That means your body recognizes and says, oh, yeah, this is good stuff. And you don't have some crazy reaction. And, you know, not like the 90 serums that smell like eucalyptus or whatever. I use it, my wife steals it, my baby uses it. Everyone in the family looks good and feels good with the power of beef tallow. So right before bed, I literally just take like a little finger full, wipe it in my hands and rub it on my face. And you kind of spread it in evenly. It comes in a bunch of great flavors. It smells amazing. And when I wake up, I feel moisturized and refreshed. And if you're interested, you can go now and get the best beef tallow on the market. I'll be honest, all beef tallow is basically the same. You know, it all is great stuff. It's all very natural. This one, one is natural, just like the rest. But this one is 30% off. When you go to Evil Goods. That's right. When you go to Evil Goods, you subscribe. Just click the link at the top of the video description or go to evilgoods.com camp. Do it for your skin, do it for the cow. Do it for your ancestors. All right, let's get back to the show. And so fast forwarding back into your late 20s and 30s, drugs come into the. Into the play a little bit more.
- [89:52]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, like I. I bought a Harley. You know, it, you know, 31, 32, let's say somewhere around there.
- [90:03]
Mark Agnon
That's awesome.
- [90:04]
Clark Fredericks
What Harley Heritage. Soft, soft tail. Hell, yeah. And I started riding with a bunch of hard partying guys. And, you know, one of the. One of the guys was a big coke doer, and he and I, you know, instantly bonded and just, you know, coke became a, like, you know, going to strip bars on The Harleys doing coke. That became like a normal, you know, a normal thing, you know? You know, for a lot of years, I dated. I got hooked up with a girl I dated off and on for a couple years, living with her. She was a big coke doer. I had never tried ecstasy. She's like, have you ever done ecstasy? I'm like, no. She's like, Mr. Hard Partying Biker boy has never done ecstasy. He's like, we're gonna change that, you know, so then we're buying hundreds of ecstasy tablets at a time. We're buying ounces of coke at a time. You know, like all our friends party. We might as well get extra, you know, so that we have it for everybody. I'm like, that's a great idea. You know, so it's always there, you know, when you got a suitcase in your basement with. With 3, 4 ounces of coke in it. Always. Yeah, it's just that you can hear it calling you. Like, it's like, come down and do a bump.
- [91:36]
Mark Agnon
Feel good. Yeah, feel good immediately.
- [91:39]
Clark Fredericks
So, yeah. So those years, like, quickly became a blur.
- [91:44]
Mark Agnon
And you mentioned the boundary thing, which I found very interesting, like how trauma can sort of take away your boundaries, even though you think you have them.
- [91:50]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, well, your boundaries get ripped from you. So then you don't even know what a boundary means, you know? Like, I would. I would say I had boundaries, but I. I blew through every boundary I set for myself, you know? You know, over the year, you know, like coke, cocaine. All right, cocaine is a weekend drug only. And then you're doing coke every day of the week, you know, like, so that boundary just got shot to hell. You know, Drinking, you know, is. Is only if you're going out with the guys or on the weekends with your girl and the guys. And most definitely never before work. And then you're drinking before work, you know, just to get yourself going in the morning. Morning heroin is only for people on skid row and Kensington Avenue in Philly and in New York City, you know, a well educated, middle class guy will absolutely not do heroin. And I'm doing heroin, you know, like, so just nothing, nothing stuck. I couldn't. I couldn't set a boundary that I could live within. Like, it just. They were meaningless to me. Right. You know, because if. If I felt uncomfortable, like, we got to fix this uncomfortable feeling. And you know, like, I went. I was never arrested. I had no criminal charges, you know, throughout my life. But I was right there. I was right, you know, I was right on the edge you know, like, you know, I was importing steroids, doing steroids, you know, in my 30s, and Homeland Security, you know, confiscates package of them. And you know, I get this threatening letter. You know, you basically get a get out of jail free card. 1, 1 get out of jail free card. And I started like after all the women, non stop women in my 20s, I started gambling. Gambling, like going to the casinos like every weekend. That became my, my new coping mechanism. You know, like when you would step through the doors of the casino and the sounds and the cocktail waitresses, cigarettes and the win or loss, the, the, the adrenaline flowing, all your, all your just dissipates, just goes away as soon as you would step into that environment. Environment. So that was like that, that felt like home to me. And you know, so I'm doing, I'm doing that for years, you know, that became years of like gambling. And that's how I, that's how I bought my Harley. Like, you know, I came home, you know, like with $50,000. I stopped at a Harley Davidson dealership. I handed the guy 22,000 cash and, and picked up a Harley a couple days later. Wow. I, I, I'm making $700 a week in the tire business. You know, like, I, eventually after the construction thing, I'm doing nothing. I'm unemployed for six months. And my brother comes to me when I was around 30 and says, you know, like, you're not doing anything. He goes, you want to open up a retread shop again? He's like, you and I, he goes, well, I got my retail store and I'm thinking about a retread shop. And you know, you and I, you'll, we'll do that. I'm like, and I had nothing else going on. I'm unemployed at, I'm like, it, let's do it, you know, so I'm making 700 a week, and yet I'm, I, I'm winning and losing tens of thousands of dollars. I went on this unbelievable run in the casinos and, and I, I don't say this to brag, just like, I just was like fearless when I bet, bet. And I, I had a suitcase with hundreds of thousands of dollars in it. The casinos. Like, my biggest win was I, I won 152,000. And I had been up way over that. And then I lost, lost, lost. And then at 152, I'm like, you know, all right, I'm out. But I was up, you know, quarter of a million and, you know, then you're Getting all the perks. Like, I'm going to the suite at Giant Stadium. I'm, they're like, you want to go see the Giants play the Eagles down to Philly? We'll send a limo up to you. You know, you don't even have to gamble. Like, I'm like, all right, cool. You know, I'm going out to Vegas. You know, they're, they're paying for my airfare out to Vegas. I had a convention in Palm Springs. They're, you know, they're like, I will fly you, you know, from Vegas out to Palm Springs. That sweets, bottles of kettle, one Dom Perry own, you know, just whatever you want. Like they would, they would give me shopping sprees in the casinos. Like the stores, every piece of clothing I had back then had, had like, you know, an insignia of a casino on it. You know, it's just like all my clothing came from casinos.
- [97:13]
Mark Agnon
And how do you feel in this window?
- [97:16]
Clark Fredericks
Just money was meaningless to me. Like it was just a tool for me to use to not deal with my shit. Like I had no respect for money and thus why it would come and go, you know. And then I got to the point where I couldn't even wait for the weekends to go gamble because you got a five day stretch where your pain is like rearing its ugly head and you know, you're just feeling uncomfortable. So it's like I start sports betting with the mop. So I can do that every day of the week. And within six months, you know, like my, my hundreds of thousands are gone. I had, I had two stock things that I had opened up with money. I, I also got investigated by the irs, Criminal bureau for money laundering for all the cash I was putting into my account. You know, a full audit on that. Just, you know, like my life is like, just, it's just, it's, it's a train wreck.
- [98:23]
Mark Agnon
Problem after problem.
- [98:24]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. And you know, so I, I, I, I'm bankrupt in six months. Sports betting with the mob and I'm in debt to them for 77,000 DOL dollars.
- [98:35]
Mark Agnon
And how do they collect?
- [98:37]
Clark Fredericks
And I start getting the phone calls, you know, like, your life's in danger, bro. You're not walking away from this. And then they, they want me to go rob a bank. Like you are better off to go rob a bank. And if you get caught, you do 10 years. Big whoop. We're going to kill you if you don't pay us. Now this is what I'm dealing with on a regular basis. And I happen to Be at my brother's tire shop. Not. Not the retread shop, his retail store. And his, his store manager goes, hey, Clark, you got a phone call on line one. I'm like, who the hell's calling me over here? He's like, I don't know. So I pick it up and the guy goes, this is Special Agent blah, blah, blah with the FBI. He goes, Mr. Fredericks, I need to meet you at your, your, Your other store on Thursday at 2:00. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's this about? I can't discuss anything on the phone. Mr. Fredericks, please be at your Newton store Thursday at 2:00. And he hangs up the phone. And I'm like, you know, like, I'm partying, you know, And I'm like, I go, the FBI isn't going to, like, get involved for buying some coke. Like, I'm not. I'm not like, doing kilos or anything, you know, I'm like. And then, you know, like, I'm not putting two to two together with the mob. And the guy shows up and tells me we have a confidential informant inside one of the major crime families. And that informant has relayed to us that there's a hit put out in your life for gambling debt, and we are legally obligated to notify you. I was just like, great. Just great. You know, so when I say I skirted, I was never, you know, like, right on the edge, like. And this is, like, this is how my life got away from me.
- [100:37]
Mark Agnon
What happens with this gambling day? Well, how do you. How do you resolve this?
- [100:43]
Clark Fredericks
I. I take calls for months, threats, death threats. They call my father, tell him, you know, your son's life's in danger. You better pony up for him. I had already gone to my family. I didn't know what to do. So I had called Gamblers Anonymous. And I told the lady on the phone how much I was into the mob and that they're threatening my life, like, going to the. I wasn't going to go to the cops. That's not the type of dude I was. I didn't know what to do. So I called Gamblers Anonymous Anonymous. And she had the head, the director, call me back. She's like, I'm gonna have Ed Looney call you back. She had Ed Looney call me back. And he's like, you're gonna meet me at a meeting tomorrow night. And there's a bunch of hardcore. Some are ex mob guys, big gamblers. And I'll Meet you there, and we'll go over your story with them and devise a plan. Plan. Like, the plan was to offer a payment plan, a monthly payment plan. And the. They're. They're like. They're gonna laugh at it. They're gonna scream, but you got to stick to your guns. And. And that's what I did. And they. They're like, you're kidding, bro. Like, you know, like, I can only afford, like, 500amonth. And they're like, that's not even going to cover the juice that were rapping, racking on to your debt. Like, you're not even covering the juice. The guy's like, if I go to my boss and tell him you're going to pay $500 on 77,000, he goes, you're going to put my life in danger. I can't even go tell him that. And so this went on and on and on. You know. You know, the FBI is like, you know, this isn't going to go away. You know, things are going to get worse. Here's my card. You know, you need our help. Help. And one day I get a phone call, and the guy just says, you're a dead man, and hangs up the phone. And I'm like, all right. You know, so I'm constantly, like, just looking over my shoulder. You know, I got my shotgun in my truck. You know, I got a bat in my office, just, you know, living on edge constantly. And I never got another phone call, and nothing ever happened. And the guys in that gambler's meeting, what they. What they said was the only thing that seems plausible is that their. The FBI's informant probably worked in the boiler room of the. You know, the gambling and the guys in the. In. In. Because I was such a heavy better, you know, like, they gave me no limit, so I could bet as much as I wanted, you know, and they said, when. When you're a better like, that, they'll keep. You know, that the house always has the eyes. So they'll keep your bets to them, to themselves and not turn it into the bosses, not put it in the book. So they're not killers themselves. They're just working in the boiler room like, the boss has the killers. And they can't go to the boss about you because they probably weren't turning in your bets, and they've been skimming off the top, they were skimming that. So they can only push you so far unless they want to try to do something themselves. But they're not usually that type of person, and it just stopped. And whether these guys got killed, whether, whether they got arrested, what happened, you know, that was 25 years ago. And after, after like six months of, of just daily weekly calls, threats, that last phone call, you're a dead man. Click. I never heard anything again.
- [104:57]
Mark Agnon
Wow.
- [104:58]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [104:59]
Mark Agnon
Now we talk about feeling trapped, right?
- [105:02]
Clark Fredericks
Those, those, those were like the worst years of my life. Like that period. Well, that period from, I mean, that.
- [105:09]
Mark Agnon
Must have been triggering so much.
- [105:11]
Clark Fredericks
Oh, yeah, yeah. Because they, they, they, they made comments. They were gonna send guys up to.
- [105:16]
Mark Agnon
Me, you know, and I mean, they're using fear as a coercion tactic and you can't tell anyone, and we're, we're going to come get you. Like, it's all the same play, you.
- [105:27]
Clark Fredericks
Know, Like, I, I didn't want to die, but I just got to the point of a, Whatever, man. It's just like, whatever, you know, whatever my life is anyway, it's been since I was a kid. So whatever, you know, it's like, whatever they're going to do, Whatever, man. You know, that's, that's sort of the mindset you adopt.
- [105:48]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. It's an interesting feeling. I've heard people say that before. That's not the desire to die, it's just not caring if you live or don't.
- [105:55]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, that's what it was.
- [105:56]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [105:56]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [105:57]
Mark Agnon
And like the drugs and riding fast bikes and, you know, all the, all of this is kind of the same feeling of like, who gives a, who cares?
- [106:07]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. You know, I, I, I got buddies who are Hell's Angels, you know, I'm selling drugs to them, you know, in this, you know, you know, my late 30s, I, I hurt my back at work and I got prescribed Vico. Never had a pain pill in my life, and just instantly fell in love with those things and, you know, went, blew through 30 of them in a couple of days. Called the doctor back up, those things worked great. I feel great. Then he's like, that was a little quick. I go, you got to get me more, doc. And he goes, I'll give you 10 more. That's it. And that just like, that was unacceptable. So then I just start buying pills off the street. And thus begins a multi year pain pill addiction, you know, So I got, it's just going from one thing to another to another to another, you know, and we go into my 40s and I, you know, like, I didn't know I suffered from ptsd, you know, from what happened to me as a kid, and something triggers my ptsd. And I fall into this deep depression. And, you know, it's just like, just like this, like, it felt like a thick mattress on me, just holding me down. And it's just like, you can't get out of this fog. It's just this thick, heavy fog that's just, just. And I would literally have to talk to myself like a baby to get out of bed in the morning. Come on, Clark, swing your legs out of bed. You can do it. Now stand up. Come on. Walk to the bathroom. Come on. And, you know, that's when I started drinking before work. You know, I mentioned that earlier. Like, like, I don't know how to, like, I have no healthy coping mechanisms. So I'm just like, like I'm just trying to figure it out on my own. Like, I, I, I am literally depressed to the point of being immobile. Like, all right, let's, let's have a drink in the morning just to try to get me going. And then it was, let's just do a couple bumps during the day just to keep me energized and going.
- [108:21]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [108:22]
Clark Fredericks
And, and it just, you know, spiraled and I got my pain pillow addiction. And, you know, I was like a squirrel gathering nuts. I'd have a drawer of 500 pain pills and still feel like that's only two weeks worth, you know, like, you know, we gotta, we gotta get, you know, more than that, you know, And I run outta, I get low on pain pills, and somebody I go to says, I don't even know why you're fucking with those pain pills to begin with. He goes, I got some packets of dope. Dope. He goes, don't kid yourself. You're doing dope. He goes, it's pharmaceutical dope, but it's dope. He goes, you might as well just do the real thing for $5 a packet instead of, you know, what you're paying for pills. And I was just like, all right, bug it. Give me some packets. Unless I start doing heroin. Right? Yeah. So it's just one thing after another, snowballs into another another. So now, and we're picking up steam too. Things are not getting better.
- [109:27]
Mark Agnon
Like I said, the pain is building and the anger is building. And at this point, by the time you're 40, you're now 30 years away from that sort of initial traumatic incident.
- [109:38]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [109:39]
Mark Agnon
How often are you thinking about that? I would love one, actually.
- [109:42]
Clark Fredericks
Right. Are we allowed to do that in a podcast?
- [109:46]
Mark Agnon
Thank you, sir. How often are you thinking about that incident specifically? Is it coming up weekly?
- [109:55]
Clark Fredericks
No, I'm not thinking about it.
- [109:57]
Mark Agnon
Like, it's completely removed.
- [109:59]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, there's, you know, there's something driving me though. You know, just uncomfortable, like, anxious, depressed, panic attack. We gotta solve that immediately. We gotta get those feelings out of here. You know, we are not going to let ourselves feel uncomfortable and, you know, so just doing, you know, like, I'm at the point now where one drug alone isn't enough to, like, take away my.
- [110:31]
Mark Agnon
Would you. Would you call this rock bottom?
- [110:35]
Clark Fredericks
No. Rock bottom's coming up.
- [110:38]
Mark Agnon
And what happens then?
- [110:40]
Clark Fredericks
Rock bottoms. When I run into my abuser, It'd been at least 10 years since I've seen him.
- [110:46]
Mark Agnon
And take me through that.
- [110:49]
Clark Fredericks
I'm in a quick check deli. I don't know if you have quick checks around here, but I'm in a quick check getting a coffee, and the door opens up and I just instinctively look up and it's my. And he sees me. He's like, hey, Clark. Yells out in the store door. And, like, this guy's gonna start making his way over to me to hug me, pat me on the back, whatever. And I just go into a panic attack, you know, like, my mind's swirling, you know, my heart's racing, I'm sweaty, I can't breathe. Like, my vision's like getting funny. And all of a sudden I hear a young boy say his nickname that he used to make me say to him when I was younger. And I see that boy's about the age he me at. And that was it. Like, everything just, like, ripped open. And I ran out of there. We shoulder bumped, I ran past him. We hit shoulders. He's like, hey, where you going? And I got in my truck and I sped out of there and I pounded my steering wheel and I'm cursing and I'm spitting in my truck, yelling over and over. And that was. That was just like, everything unraveled after that. You know, Going to work when I was depressed felt like climbing Mount Everest. And with a month after seeing. Seeing him, I couldn't climb Mount Everest anymore. And I just left the family business with my brother. Just walked away buying, buying grams of coke. No longer worked anymore. I'm buying ounces of coke, and I got free time on my hands. And I got Dennis Peg on the forefront of my mind. And all I can think every day is that he's still abusing boys 30 years later, still abusing boys 30 years later. And that just, like, haunted in me. And I spiraled downward for months and got to the point where I had to go Confront him and went to his house one night. I hadn't been back to that house since. He me.
- [113:44]
Mark Agnon
You still remembered where it was. Like you could just.
- [113:47]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, he lived, he lived, lived three minutes away from me. You know, I didn't know if he still lived there and I assumed so. He had a long driveway parked halfway down his driveway, ran up the driveway, his front door was open, his screen door was shut. There he is sitting there watching tv.
- [114:09]
Mark Agnon
And the plan is to just confront him?
- [114:11]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, well, I, I knew he was a gunman nut I took a knife with me. You can say whatever reason for taking the knife. You know, here's a guy who's been children for 40 years. He is the firearms instructor. Every cop, everybody in law enforcement every year has to get recertified with a firearm. He's the firearm instructor for, for two counties, Morris county and Sussex. This guy has had 36 guns in his house. Swords, a dozen knives. If you've been kids for 40 years, wouldn't you have on every chair a holster? Wouldn't you have under every table a gun? Like, you gotta be like, I've pushed my luck, you know, something's gonna happen eventually. So I was prepared to go into that house and get shot, die again. I'm not looking to die, but I just, it, it's. I just don't care, you know, I'm, I'm willing to put my life on the line right now. And I go up to his door, I rip his screen door open and I'm standing there in his doorway. It's like 9:30 at night. And, and this is the part that gets me, but you know, like we're trying to think that predators, pedophiles, are normal, are human. They're not human. This guy isn't human. You're a 12 year old boy and you're whispering in his ear just another minute so I can make sure I come, you know, and you're beating your dog in front of him to death to keep him silent so people view him as human. He's not. That's like, can you get more evil than that? That's evil. That's not a human. And this guy looks calmly over his shoulder as I'm standing in his doorway and goes, hey, how are you? And it just seemed like the most incredible thing to say at that moment. Like, get down on your knees and be like, dude, I am so sorry. I know why you're here. I am sorry for what happened. I'm sorry for what I did to you. I always Thought you or somebody else would show up. Let's talk. Please forgive me. I'm sick. I need help, whatever it may be. No, just. Hey, how are you? That was. That, like, set me off, like, whether I had a plan of action or not. When he said that I had a plan of action, I go, hey, how am I, motherfucker? Let me show you how the fuck I am. And that face I kept behind closed doors, the face of the smile that I showed the world was gone. The face behind closed doors was out. He's seeing the face he made of rage and hate and violence that he instilled in me. He's seeing that on my face. He's the first one to see it. And I raced across his living room. We got into a violent fight. I'm stabbing at him. He's punching me. At one point, I put a knife right through my hand. I sever all the ligaments and tendons in my hand. And the fight really only lasted a couple minutes, two, three minutes. He slipped in the blood that was both of ours on the. On the floor. And he was sort of like, up against a wall. And I knelt down in front of him and I looked him in the eye and I said, it's not so fun little boys now, is it, Dennis? And I slit his throat. And. And that was it. And, you know, I would say I've had two people who have reached out to me over the years, one female, one male, who said they were abused and said they would never think of doing what I did. Whether they were actual abuse victims or not, I don't know. Every other abuse victim has reached out to me and said, you did exactly what I've dreamt of. And, you know, you can look at their profile on Facebook or Instagram and see if they're liberal or see if they're Republican, and it doesn't matter if they're male, female, Republican, Democrat, at. You did exactly what I've dreamt of doing to my abuser. Because the horror of what they put you through is so traumatic, the only thing your mind can think to do to even the score is to kill him. But you don't heal from abuse. You don't heal from trauma by adding more trauma to your system. That's not how you heal. I stopped an evil piece of shit, not a human, an evil piece of shit, from ever harming another child. Is that a good thing? Yes. Did it in any way heal me? Absolutely not. You know, like, so, like. And I. I've had so many people who have like, sent me messages. I'm going to go do what you just did or what you have done. I'm going to go do the same. I'm like. And I'm like, dude, like, don't do it. You know, Like, I've been to prison. Like, prison's hell. Like, you're. You're literally. You're. You're literally. They win. They win by dragging your life to the grave in shit. So, like, had I gotten a life sentence, Dennis Pegg won. He would have won. Like, he would have controlled me from age, you could say, six, when he first touched me, all the way to the grave. Like, you can't allow your abuser to control you to the grave. You can't. That's the sinful part of it. Like, you can't. You can't give these pieces of shit that much control. You can't. And by killing them, that's what you do. Like, they're controlling you to the grave by sitting in a prison cell for rest of your life, being tortured every day in prison. Prison is hell, dude. And you just can't do that because your life does not have to be forfeited just because you were abused. It doesn't. You can. You can get past it. You can heal from it. You got to address it. You can't. You can't keep it to yourself and think you're going to have a normal life. It's all going to come out. It's where midlife crisis has come from. Like, all my therapists are like, you can. You know, like, my brother kept it at bay by building a business in a family, but it was there, and it was just waiting to come out. I kept it at bay in my 20s by sleeping with women. In my 30s by gambling, riding Harleys, living fast coke into my 30s and 40s, partying, drugs and alcohol. I kept it at bay, but it was there, it was waiting, and it's gonna come out. So you got to address it. Like, I am the face of. You have to address your pain. You know, Like, I've done what everybody says they want to do, and I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm here to say that's not the way you heal. It's not gonna. It's. It's not gonna work.
- [122:12]
Mark Agnon
You know, if you wanted to take a different course of action, of course, you know, sharing the pain earlier, telling your dad when he asked and coming forth with that, and maybe getting, you know, professional help in your childhood, all of those things would have certainly helped but in the event that you hadn't done any of those things and the only thing you could change was, you know, driving up to that house, what would you have done differently? Would you have gone to law enforcement? Could the law even carry out a case against this guy? Like, what, what could you have done?
- [122:40]
Clark Fredericks
But, you know, I have, I have my podcast and I actually had the prosecutor in my case come on and one of the questions I asked him, what could I have done different? And he said, he said statute of limitations had long run out. There's really, legally, there was nothing you, you could have done different. Nothing. This guy had gotten out from under a minimum of three cases brought against him by young boys. That one, the mother in the Dunkin Donuts, her and her son filed charges. He would come, she worked the third shift, he would come and sit during her third shift, you know, midnight on, and threaten her life, threaten her son's life. You guys are gonna pull those charges or your son's death. Dead, you're dead. And they eventually pulled their charges. Oh, what? The two other boy scouts went away on the jamborees, like you mentioned, like, oh, I'm going to be nervous if my son joins the scouts and goes on weekend trip. You know, two different scouts at different times went on weekend jamborees with Peg and came home with hickeys all over their body, body. And their parents, like, saw them with their shirt off, like, what are those marks? And then like it went down below their belt line. And a mother took her son to the state police, filed charges. The father came the next day, recanted those charges, said, I don't want my son labeled gay. The other child with the hickeys, the parents filed charges and, and whether it was a week, two, three, four down the road, they said, our son's too traumatized to testify. We're dropping the charges. So he got out of those. Another instance was the state police investigated a case, put together a dossier, took it to the prosecutor's office. And whether it got swept under the rug, whether they thought there wasn't enough evidence, nothing ever came of it. So that's four there.
- [125:14]
Mark Agnon
So what comes from the rest of his life? I mean, you know, he continues to be in the police force. He retired.
- [125:22]
Clark Fredericks
He retired and became a park ranger, you know, and I gave a, I gave a speech at a, a rehab center and it was like from 18 year olds up to 70 year olds and this afterwards, you know, like, everybody's coming up to shake my hand and this old guy comes up and he. He didn't tell me his name, but he said, I worked with Dennis Pegg up at Stokes Forest when he became a ranger after he retired from the sheriff's department. And I went to the state police because he was renting cabins every weekend and bringing young boys to those cabins. And I just knew what was going on in those cabins. And I went to the state police and said, you got to set up a camera. He rents the same cabin over and over, and he's bringing young boys there with him, and they're like, we. We can't just go set up a camera. It's not how it works. He goes. And nothing ever became of it. So, you know, like, my friend. My friend's wife works, you know, in the sheriff's department, and she sat in on a lot of meetings on Dennis Pegg after I got arrested. And she said, you know, easily over a hundred, you know, victims, you know, just from all the various walks of life he was involved in.
- [126:58]
Mark Agnon
I mean, it just seems like such an insane cover up. I mean, I don't know what else to call it. You have a hundred plus victims over.
- [127:06]
Clark Fredericks
50 years, multiple charges filed, dropped.
- [127:11]
Mark Agnon
I don't know if it's. It seems like too many cases to be knife.
- [127:14]
Clark Fredericks
You know, it's just like a blind eye got turned, you know.
- [127:19]
Mark Agnon
So now immediately after the event where you two confront each other.
- [127:24]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [127:25]
Mark Agnon
You're holding a knife. Is it true? It was the knife. It was a. Like a scouting knife.
- [127:30]
Clark Fredericks
He gave me that knife. Yeah, like as a Christmas gift when I was younger. And he taught me how to. He bought me a. A stone set, you know, oil stone set to sharpen and. Oh, I'm sorry. He didn't give me the knife. He gave me the. The sharpening set. He gave my brother a knife, and it's engraved, you know, like, you know, two J. You know, from Dennis.
- [128:00]
Mark Agnon
So the knife that he taught you how to sharpen.
- [128:02]
Clark Fredericks
So he taught. I had my same hunting knife from. From being a young kid. Kid that he taught me to sharpen. And I kept it razor sharp throughout my whole life. So that's one thing he. He did. He did good. Was taught me how to sharpen my knife properly.
- [128:18]
Mark Agnon
There's something poetic about it.
- [128:20]
Clark Fredericks
There is something poetic, right.
- [128:21]
Mark Agnon
To kill him with the knife he taught you how to sharpen. So now you're standing in his home, the same home that you were in, and he's dead.
- [128:32]
Clark Fredericks
He's dead.
- [128:32]
Mark Agnon
And what is the immediate feeling that you have?
- [128:36]
Clark Fredericks
You know, that's why I try to tell people, like, everybody's, you know, people say, you know, did. Did all your problems just dissipate? And I'm like, no. Like. Like, no. Like, I instantly said, I'm, you know, because my. My hand is literally gushing blood. I'm covered in blood. I'm. I knew this knife wound was going to be. Be my downfalls. You know, you can't just walk into a hospital and. And not expect the cops to, like, call the hospital, you know, a couple days down the road as they're investigating a murder and be like, did you have anybody come in with any, you know, odd wounds? So I just knew that was going to be my downfall. But no, like, I didn't. It wasn't, you know, and again, like, people who. Who want to contemplate killing their abuse is soul hurting. It hurts your soul to go do what I did. It's not therapeutic. There's nothing cleansing. It's not healthy. It was brutal. It was gory. It was bloody. It was violent. It was a fight to death. And it hurts. It hurt. It hurts. It literally hurts your soul. It's just.
- [130:03]
Mark Agnon
So what is your plan at this point? You need to get medical attention for your hand. Do you just leave?
- [130:07]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [130:07]
Mark Agnon
What happens immediately after I leave?
- [130:09]
Clark Fredericks
And I called the girl on I was dating at the time to come over. I call my buddy to come over and say goodbye to them. And my mother had just gotten back from Florida, and I sent my buddy up. You know, it's like midnight. I'm like, go get my mother. I'm like, I just took care of Dennis pegg so he could never hurt another kid. And I couldn't even tell her that night that he had done anything to me. And she's like, what do you mean you took care of Dennis, Peggy? I'm like, I'm like, let's not. Let's not play games. We know what he's all about. We know that he drove Jeff to commit suicide. Look at Jay's life. I go, I took care of him so he could never harm another child. And she's like, why. Why you? And I just. Somebody had to. Mom. I. I couldn't. I'm like, couldn't. Still. I still am locked in silence. Like. Like couldn't tell her. And I was arrested the next day. You know. You know, house was surrounded.
- [131:32]
Mark Agnon
How do they know it's you?
- [131:33]
Clark Fredericks
That's. You know, it's a long, drawn out thing. My mother told my sister. My sister. Sister's like, we got to do a. Well, Being check. She had a well being check done. Domino started falling into place. You know, like maybe Clark's all up on drugs and just talking out of his ass. And my mother's like, he's got a wound that's, you know, severe and all right, so maybe he did have a, an attack with Dennis. Maybe Dennis is still alive and we can save Clark's life from spending life in prison by getting to Dennis before he dies.
- [132:09]
Mark Agnon
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- [135:45]
Clark Fredericks
Not instantly, but, you know, like all, you know, like pretty, pretty soon after, you know, like pretty soon after. And I just, I woke up and I just like, like, it just like hit me. I'm lying in bed, I'm like, what the fuck have you done, dude? Like, holy shit, man, your life is done. It's over. Like, this is it. Life, life. Life is kaput. And I was like, wow. You know, I allowed that, that by not addressing that pain, it Just. It took me straight to. And it's just like in my mind. My mind said, we can. We can. We can come up with something to get us out of this. Let's just get some drugs and alcohol and our system, you know? So I had a whole bunch of Xanax there. I. I poured some Xanax out. I had a half of a vodka drink that I made when I went to bed that night, and I put my finger and swirled it up and took a bunch of Xanax and drank that. And then I got up and went to the bathroom and brushed my teeth, and I went out, out. And I. I wasn't even paying attention to the windows. I went right to the. To the kitchen, to the refrigerator, and I poured a glass of wine. And I look out the window with my wine, and I'm like, what the Is going on? The street was there was a dozen minimum cop cars out there, and there's cops behind trees and rocks and the shed we had out back, and just everywhere, you know, guns out. And I'm like. And I'm, you know, like that feeling like. Like, wow, it's over already. Before I can even, like, contemplate some sort of stupid idea, you know, whether to go kill myself or whatever. It would be like, it's. It's already done. And I'm like. So I chug that wine. I pour another. I chug half of that. I hear out of a loudspeaker, Mr. Fredericks, come out of your house with your hands up. And I chugged that in a little bit of irony, you know, we need some levity after all this heaviness. I had seen a state trooper buddy of mine at a bar, a high school friend who's a state trooper at a bar a couple months earlier. And he's like, hey, you want some shirts and hats? I was like, yeah, yeah. So we went out to his car. He gave me a couple state police shirts and a hat. Hat. And so I went in my room and I put my state police shirt on. I'm like, this should get me out of this. Once they see I'm one of them.
- [138:38]
Mark Agnon
Oh, he backs the blue.
- [138:39]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, that's how I walked out and, you know, spread eagle on my lawn and taken away to the barracks.
- [138:49]
Mark Agnon
And you had mentioned that when the police had arrested you that one of the cops actually had said something to you while you're getting arrested.
- [138:56]
Clark Fredericks
Arrested, yeah. This guy, Howie Ryan, he. He turned out to be an angel. He was a lieutenant in the state police, and he. He ran the crime scene. So the CSI team, Crime Scene Investigation Team. And he covered, I think it was. He covers five, six of the northern counties. They, you know, they break, break it up. So his CSI team was in charge of five counties, and he lived in Stillwater. I'd never met him, didn't know him. And so he ran the CSI at Peg's house. He comes in to the holding cell I'm in at the state police barracks. And first words out of his mouth is, you know, I got to apologize to you. And I'm like, what the hell are you apologizing to me for? And he's like, I've heard rumors about this scumbag for a long time. He's like, you know, I can't arrest somebody on rumors. I need victims, I need facts. He's like, so I was never able to stop him. I was never able to even, like, come close to arresting him. But I've heard rumors over the years, and I just want to apologize for never stopping him. And I apologize for whatever he went through. Through. And I was like, all right. And at first, you know, I felt pretty good, you know, and then he left the room, and I was just like, I sat there like, every buddy knows about this guy, and yet I had to flush my life away to stop him. Like. Like, you can't give a pedophile 45 year reign of terror. Like, how is that allowed? Like, there has to be some way to stop him other than a victim committing murder and flushing their life away.
- [140:42]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [140:44]
Clark Fredericks
And then Howie, you know, he came back in again. They had to take pictures. They got to strip you, you know, look for, you know, tattoos, gang signs, whatever, you know, they got to do this whole thing. He comes in again and he's like, look, man, my detectives are in another room with detectives from the prosecutor's office, and they're ready to interrogate you. He goes, your blood's all over that scene. He goes, this isn't a whodunit. He goes, I got you. He goes, but it doesn't mean your life's over. He goes, if you go into that room, though, and just start running your mouth, he goes, your life could be over. You could fuck yourself and spend life in prison. He goes, so. So do not go into that room and open your mouth, request a lawyer, and do not say another word. And he asked me three times, do you understand what I'm saying? I want you to exercise your fifth amendment rights and request a lawyer. And I go to him, but I don't even have a Lawyer. He goes, I'm going to take care of that for you. On his cell phone, he called this big lawyer in our county, George Dash Dagot. And George answered. He said, george, I need you to send over a retainer to the state police barracks, like, immediately. He's like, for who? And he goes, clark Fredericks. He goes, what'd he do? He goes, it's a murder case. He goes, okay, and George Daggett faxed over a thing. I am Clark Frederick's attorney. Do not interrogate him until I get to there. I will be there. They took me into the room. Howie went out. They. They took me in the room, and I just said, I'm not saying a thing without a lawyer. And they're like, you really want to handle this this way? You know, you're in a lot of trouble, you know, like, so. So my advice to anybody who gets arrested, they're not there to help you. You know, speaking can only harm you.
- [142:55]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [142:55]
Clark Fredericks
They are not the judge. Judge.
- [142:57]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [142:57]
Clark Fredericks
So, like, when a cop says, you talk to me. It'll be good for your sentence. The judge gives a sentence. A cop doesn't give a sentence, you know, so. And people, they're just there to get more evidence.
- [143:08]
Mark Agnon
Oh, I'm gonna look guilty if I ask for a lawyer. It's like, you're gonna look guilty if you don't.
- [143:12]
Clark Fredericks
Okay, so just, no matter what you're there for, just keep your mouth shut and. And let it play out in the courts. Right? Cops can't dictate what your sentence is going to be be. They only gather evidence.
- [143:24]
Mark Agnon
So now you. You speak to your attorney, and now you're just waiting in a jail cell.
- [143:29]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. No. And. And that guy didn't even turn out to be my attorney. I picked somebody else. But. And they. And. And a bunch of guys in the barracks, like, went after h. Like, what the. You said, if Frederick's in there, he goes, I didn't say anything other than he should exercise his Fifth amendment rights. He goes, how the hell. They're like, how the hell did Daggett get involved in this? Already ready. He's like, I don't know. That's who Frederick's requested. You know, I. I placed a call to him. They're like, stinks, Howie, you know, he's like, go yourself. You know, he had. He had two years left. He was the top dog in there. He was trooper of the year for solving a murder case one year. So, you know, the guy wasn't, you know, some fly by night rookie that's awesome. So he's like, go yourselves.
- [144:11]
Mark Agnon
But now you're sitting in the same.
- [144:13]
Clark Fredericks
Jail now I'm in, right? That's the. Another irony, you know, like. And they put me into a suicide.
- [144:19]
Mark Agnon
Cell, but it's the same jail that Dennis Page where he patrolled, where he.
- [144:24]
Clark Fredericks
Was patrolling inmates and took inmates home.
- [144:28]
Mark Agnon
So what are you thinking now that you're in Dennis Pegg's?
- [144:30]
Clark Fredericks
I am thinking I'm a dead man. I heard about him abusing inmates going back to 13. When my father said something, nothing ever happened. So here it is, all these years later. So I'm thinking he's a protected guy. Like, nothing ever, like, every year, I'm thinking, like, you know, like, all right, they know he's molesting inmates. It can't be allowed that you can take inmates home to. To mentor them and molest them. Something's got to happen. Nothing would happen. I. I knew Mike Fenari. My father told me Mike Fenari had filed a lawsuit. I'm like, all right, Mike's lawsuit will put him away. I didn't know about the. The boy Scout hickey things until later on. And then nothing ever came with. With Mike's lawsuit. And I'm just like, he. He'll never be stopped. He's untouchable. So I'm thinking when I'm in that jail, these guys protected one of their own, even though he was a piece of. And they're going to beat the hell out of me. Whether I survived this beating or not, I have no idea. And. And that's what I waited for in that suicide cell. Just like, for. For a gang of them to come in or to take me into a closet room, you know, out of the camera's eye. And. And it never happened. And one by one, guy after guy, you know, like, they have to come in and do cell checks every so often. Guy would come in and be like, hey, man, I'm hearing a lot of dirt about this guy. Peter. You just got to keep your mouth shut. Don't talk to any of us. Like, somebody tries to get you into a conversation, Just don't say anything to them. And then the next guy would come in. Like, you need anything? Like, am I allowed a pillow in here? They're like, yeah, you can have a pillow. Comes back with two pillows for me. Next guy would come in, hey, man, you gotta let this thing play out. There's a lot of stuff swirling around the community right now. Just hang in there and just don't talk to anybody in here. You know, so like, and that was, every guy that came on and came into the cell would say something similar like that, you know, like, hey, man, you know, you're in a suicide cell. I don't want to see anything happen to you. Just, you know, like, just, you'll get through this. You know, just trying to pump me up bit a little. Little. And I sat there for three and a half years in the county jail. I eventually took a plea deal to, I had 30 to life hanging over my head, first degree murder. And I can't tell you, like, how that suffocates you, bro. Like, it's just, you know, like, I talk about that wet blanket feeling. This was like just a wet plant.
- [147:21]
Mark Agnon
This is the ultimate trapped suffocation, imprisonment, literally.
- [147:26]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, man.
- [147:26]
Mark Agnon
And is it triggering a lot of things for you?
- [147:29]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah. Like, because, because these guards strip you naked like at the blink of an eye. Like, so I'm having to get stripped naked by a guy who represents peg to me.
- [147:40]
Mark Agnon
Literally. A police officer.
- [147:42]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah. Sheriff's officer. Like, he was in the jail.
- [147:45]
Mark Agnon
And what is it giving you panic attacks?
- [147:47]
Clark Fredericks
Ah, it would just, you know. Yeah, like, but you just, you just got to do it, you know, it's just like, they tell you, they tell you strip, you gotta strip.
- [147:58]
Mark Agnon
At what point do you get therapy for the first time?
- [148:01]
Clark Fredericks
Well, I didn't, I didn't get actual therapy till I went to prison until you were sentenced.
- [148:06]
Mark Agnon
And.
- [148:07]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, so you're, you're three and a half years, you're kept in the county jail until you get sentenced. So. But I started, I had people from all over the country sending me books.
- [148:23]
Mark Agnon
Because now this is a national news story.
- [148:24]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, this was worldwide news. Like, you know, man murders his boy Scout leader who he says molested him. You know, it's, I'm on the front page of the LA Times, the Baltimore Sun, New York Post.
- [148:40]
Mark Agnon
How does it feel to have this secret that you pushed down for so long now open to everyone?
- [148:45]
Clark Fredericks
Oh, it was horrible, you know, like, you know, but I was forced into it. Like, I couldn't hide from, from it. Was there any, like, for the world to this thing, you know, that I, I, I guarded it like it was, you know, a diamond inside of me? Now it's just like it's out there, you know, Was there any part of.
- [149:01]
Mark Agnon
It that was liberating, that it was just gone?
- [149:04]
Clark Fredericks
It was tough to feel liberated, you know, when you got this life sentence hanging over you, like. But I started getting letters upon letters upon letters and it was From a lot of classmates who, who said, same thing happened to me, Clark. What? And it was just nothing but love. And I'm so sorry. And you're a hero. And you did what I wanted to do. You know, like, from all around the country, I'm getting letters. Not just my classmates, you know, like, just everybody opening up to me. And I'm like. And it just started, like, dawn on me, like, what a idiot. Like, I just flushed my life away over something I thought would demasculate me, you know, like, make me less than a man, you know? And here everybody's telling me how strong I am, what a hero I am. I love you. Just nothing but love and support. And I. You know, your mind tells you people look at you as weak, you know, for getting, you know, people look at you as a pillar of strength, for addressing your pain and healing from it. Yeah, that's what they look at you as. Like, you know, I, I, I, I just, I interviewed for my thing a retired NYPD officer. This guy is, is jacked. Like, he is like, pump daddy. And he was as a little boy by his next door neighbor repeatedly. And he lived in silence. And he became a cop, and he became a functioning alcoholic cop, and he became a womanizing cop. And he blew through marriages and hurt tons of women, like I did. And he stumbled across, you know, a clip of me talking about my abuse, and he's like, if I'm going to have any type of life. He's in his 50s, you know, retired from the force. It's like, if I'm going to have any type of salvageable life, I got to address this thing. And he reached out to me, you know, first it was just with a couple short little messages, then it was longer messages. Then it was, I want to come on your show, but I'm, I'm afraid, you know, I don't want to be looked at as gay or a, or weak or I'm like, dude, it's going to be the complete opposite. You're going to have to trust me on this. People aren't going to look at you as gay or weak or a sissy or a wimp. People are going to, when you address this and you speak about it, people are going to think you're amazing. And he did. And, you know, it was just an outpouring of love for him. And this woman in his town, this gorgeous woman in his town, reached out to him and said, same thing happened to me as a kid. Can we have a coffee? And they went and had Coffee. And she told him her story and he shared more of his. And he calls me up and he's like, dude, I am head over heels in love. I found the love of my life. I'm like, what? He's like, from your show. He's like, it's good. Girl reached out to me. And I'm like, didn't I tell you everything would change, bro? Like, you were so, you know, your mind had. He's like, you were right about everything, man. He goes, my life just completely changed since I addressed this, you know, so, like, yeah, that's awesome. It was totally rewarding, you know, like, and that's just over and over, you know, with the people I've had on that have said that.
- [152:50]
Mark Agnon
I've heard that the quote said that the. The things you truly want exist on the other side of what you fear the, the most. And that feeling of, I can't confront this. If I say this, it'll be. It's actually the liberation on the other side is. You got to go through the fear, though.
- [153:06]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, you have to. So I read this book, Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl, Holocaust survivor.
- [153:12]
Mark Agnon
It's an all time great book.
- [153:14]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. It's like everybody, every. Every person locked up reads it.
- [153:17]
Mark Agnon
Oh, really? I didn't know it was such a popular prison.
- [153:19]
Clark Fredericks
It's big in prison.
- [153:21]
Mark Agnon
I mean, good. It's a great book.
- [153:22]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. And. And you know, in it was a line, you know, I'll paraphrase, like, when you are faced with a situation you cannot change, you have to change yourself. And I was like, wow, like, my situation, I'm facing life in prison, this may not change. I'm gonna have to change myself to adapt to this. And it was just like a light bulb. And I just read it over and over and over. And then I read the book the Power and Now by Eckhart Tolle, which was on mindfulness. You know, I scoffed at meditation or mindfulness earlier in life, you know, like that simply wasn't going to happen. And I just started putting into effect how to take back control of my mind. He gave, you know, gave you tools to take back control of your thoughts. You know, the thoughts, like 247 when I was locked up. You know, just like our minds hate the present, they want to go past or forward. So it was either either going back to the abuse, back to the murder, or life in prison. Life in prison, back murder. And that was it. I was just a yo yo with those thoughts. Like, and. And then I just learned to Just like be in the moment, you know, practice a mantra. You know, when I would walk, you know, I'd be sitting in the day room and it's just chaos in there on the day room tier. And in my mind I'm just repeating my mantra over and over and over and over and over and over, just trying to, to keep my mind from going to a dark place or going to the future. Just like, right, we're going to stay right in the present here and just, you know, be present. And I did that. I got blessed with a five year sentence. I took a plea deal, second degree manslaughter. The judge gave me the minimum. He apologized on the record for having to send me to prison for a single deal. Day gave me the minimum. I had to go to Newark, New Jersey, to Northern State Prison, right by the airport there. And my very first day there, a therapist came to my cell and she said, I can't believe you're here. I followed your case when it was on tv. And she goes, I just saw your name come across my computer and I came right over. Would you start therapy with me? I said, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so it took me having to go to prison to get therapy for the first time in my life, which is another irony. And then I joined. She ran a group class for childhood trauma. And she goes, you know, like we would have at most 10 guys in the class. She goes, every friggin inmate in here should be every, every inmate has childhood trauma, you know, but guys don't address anything. You know, what was shocking to me is I'm in my cell one day and our tier ran GED classes, which most of the tiers did. But at most I ever saw out there was four guys, it was usually two to four. And I was like, oh, you know, that's all who need their ged. Well, we had the same guards, worked out the same shifts all the time. And then a couple months down the road, the guard who worked that morning shift, the regular guard, wasn't there. And this new guy, you know, called out, all right, GED classes and he started to do a roll call of all the people that should be coming out. And it was literally every cell, it was a two tier thing, it was every cell, top and bottom. He's calling out 95% of the guys for GED classes.
- [157:09]
Mark Agnon
Wow.
- [157:09]
Clark Fredericks
I was like, all these fucking guys are in here, here, need their ged, are here because they don't have education because they had shitty upbringings and they're not even taking a free GED while they're here. Like, what a waste.
- [157:24]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [157:24]
Clark Fredericks
You know, that was shocking to me.
- [157:26]
Mark Agnon
Wow.
- [157:27]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [157:27]
Mark Agnon
And so once you start going to therapy, do things kind of start to click in place? Do you start to kind of see how the behavior was connected to the trauma?
- [157:35]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, like, you know, I, I, everything, you know, like everything you and I just went through, I, I go through with her.
- [157:40]
Mark Agnon
Does it blow your mind? I mean, does it feel like you're exiting the matrix or something?
- [157:43]
Clark Fredericks
Y. Yeah. It's just like, oh, like, man, what the. I'm, you know, he's, you know, like I just be like, what the hell man? Like every, everything I did in life was, goes right back to that.
- [157:56]
Mark Agnon
Yeah.
- [157:56]
Clark Fredericks
Like it, it just dictated all my behaviors, you know, like just couldn't commit to a relationship, couldn't commit to a job, drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, not wanting to be trapped, just, you know, running, running, running, running, running. Just everything, you know, like instead of healing, you know, and so I've just been on a healing journey, man.
- [158:22]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. And that initial trauma just creates more trauma. I wonder if there's people listening to this that have never dealt with people that have been, you know, had these kinds of childhood abuse stories that it's not necessarily, oh, everything is because of that one event. It's that that one event caused everything and that that one event caused the lack of intimacy with a relationship, and then the lack of intimacy with relationship then caused your next relation. You endured trauma from that first relationship and then your next relationship, you still had baggage from the first one and then that created more baggage and it all compounds and it creates this debt of trauma that until you start to address the initial thing continues to build on itself and it just creates this ripple throughout your entire life that, I mean, is the biggest suffocation of all.
- [159:09]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it all comes down to you have to confront, you have to like finally address the 500 pound gorilla in the room. Like, you know, like do a little self analysis, you know, you know, like just take a step back and, and figure out why you're doing the things you're doing. Like why, why are you going from one destructive relationship after another? You know, we, we replicate in life what we knew in our childhood.
- [159:35]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [159:35]
Clark Fredericks
Like, I just, I have just so many women that reach out to me who are just non stop with these horrible relationships because their, their early childhood was horror.
- [159:49]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [159:49]
Clark Fredericks
You know, I've heard just like this is normal to me.
- [159:51]
Mark Agnon
I've heard it said that we seek the pain that we feel most comfortable With. Yeah. And, and that this, you know, if you had an abusive father, for example, like, it's possible that the male relationships you emulate later have that same pain cycle that you had, you know, early in childhood. And without even being cognizant that, oh, I'm replicating these things that I experienced early on, and it's not your fault that these things happen to you or that you were born to the situation, you're the victim of it, but you have the ability and the freedom to break yourself from these cycles. And that's a very liberating feeling. But to be stuck in it is just without knowing is. I mean, it's a different type of hell.
- [160:28]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
- [160:30]
Mark Agnon
So when you're in prison and people look at your paperwork and they see what you're in for, are they cool with it?
- [160:37]
Clark Fredericks
You don't go around like, you know, you hear this, you know, there's, there's a, there's, there's a couple loudmouth dudes on, on, you know, YouTube who, who spout off about their, their prison life. That's not how it was for me at least, you know, maybe, maybe California is so different. I had sent, I had my article from the front page of our local paper, you know, Frederick's murders, Boy Scout leader, you know, and whatever. I had sent that to myself to prison. When I left the county jail, I gave it to somebody. I'm like, send this envelope to me, wait a day or two and then mail it to me. And you don't go, you got to go to this place, a central receiving part of the prison to get classified. They gotta, they gotta find out, you know, if you got diseases, if you got aids, if you got gang affiliations. They gotta figure out, figure out what prison best suits you. So I, I had that and you can send yourself mail there. So I had this envelope sent to me there, which I got while I was there. So I didn't have like, people weren't asking me for paperwork. I got this one bunky in prison though. He's a young blood, off the hook like, like just, he was a live wire and he came into to my cell and he's like the only 50 year old white men in prison are pedophiles. If you're a pedophile, I'm going to beat you to death right now. And I was like, I'm the complete opposite of a pedophile. He goes, yeah, that's what they all say. And I reached under my thing and I took out my, said there you Go, bro. You know, my. My article from the newspaper, he's like, oh, cool, bro. You know, he just changed. He's like, cool. You know, so. And, like, so nobody asked me for paperwork, so there was.
- [162:53]
Mark Agnon
There was some respect in. In the prison for.
- [162:56]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, this. This other dude, he made hooch on our tier, and he made a thing a hooch. And he goes, clark, you can have all the hooch you want for. For what you did. I was like, nah, I'm good, man.
- [163:08]
Mark Agnon
You know, you gotta wonder if there's an element. I think this is actually coming up a little bit now, like, within rap music, but, you know, so many people within impoverished, poor communities, many of them, you know, black and brown, that get sexually abused. Never talk about it. And so I wonder how many of these guys in prison, some of, like, you know, the toughest dudes you can imagine, that got sexually abused as kids.
- [163:28]
Clark Fredericks
Oh, absolutely.
- [163:29]
Mark Agnon
And even in prison, never brought it up. Maybe they lived lives of, you know, crime, drugs, gang violence.
- [163:34]
Clark Fredericks
Well, it's not like in prison, you. You. You can't go around, like, showing your cards, like, showing your weakness.
- [163:41]
Mark Agnon
Right.
- [163:41]
Clark Fredericks
You can't go. Like, in that group therapy class, we all had to take a vow amongst each other that nothing left that class. Like, we could open openly talk in this class. We could cry, we could hug bug. We can't mention a thing outside of these walls.
- [163:59]
Mark Agnon
Someone could get killed.
- [164:01]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. And the therapist, like, you're instantly booted out of here if anybody brings up anything that's mentioned in this classroom. And, you know, so we had to trust each other for that. And, you know, guys would share, you know, their horror stories in there. And that was the only environment when I was in the county jail. Dude after dude came up to me. Me, you know, because, like, I got. I got like, three different papers sent to me, but other guys, you know, say another four to six would get newspapers. So there's always newspapers on the tier. And they would see, you know, my. My molestation is splashed all over the front page along with murder. And guys would come up and sit down next to me. A. I'm here for the same thing. Like, because, like, I'm here because I was molested as a kid. I became a heroin addict and started. Started stealing and started thieving and. And then another guy would come up and, you know, just. But, you know, guys in prison didn't. Didn't come up to me and share that. In. In jail they did, but not in prison, just in that group class. We did, right? Yeah.
- [165:15]
Mark Agnon
So at this, the Newark prison, you serve, serve how many years there?
- [165:19]
Clark Fredericks
I had to serve a year there. So I did three and a half. I was supposed to do four years, three months. They kept me an extra three months. For whatever reason, you know, I got called down to the parole office, and the guy's like, you know, when I had like two months to go, he's like, you're not getting out in two months. And I'm like, well, why? Because that was my 85%, you know, the NIRA Act? No, Early Release act, you know, 85% was four years, three months out of a, out of five. And he's like, you don't have enough commutation time because you spent so much time in the county jail compared to what your sentence is, you don't have that good time. He goes, so you have a 85% date, but you also have a maximum state. And he goes, they're keeping you to your max date. So. So it was four years, six months, and a couple days. So I had to do an extra three months.
- [166:21]
Mark Agnon
And then once you're released, how do you start putting your life back together?
- [166:24]
Clark Fredericks
Well, I still got three years of parole when I get released. And, you know, they're piss testing you. They're seeing you twice a week early on, then it's once a week, you know, constantly testing you. I, I instantly became an advocate for, for getting a new law adopted in New Jersey for statute of limitations when somebody can sue their abuser or the organization that held their abuser. I, I, and I started as an advocate. I sort of like fell into it. I went and saw this high profile law firm. I, an article came across, my phone, phone. You know, when you Google stuff, you know, all of a sudden you start getting news articles related to what you Google. So I must have googled something about abuse or molestation. And this article about these three boy Scouts in the county next to me who were suing their boy Scout leader was, came across and it mentioned the law firm they were using. So I was like, screw it. I'm gonna call this law firm. So I called the law firm, got in touch with this lawyer, went and saw him, and he's like, the way the law states, now, you have no case. He goes, I, I know some of the advocates working to overturn the law. I know them personally. He goes, maybe your story's so over the top you can sway some of the senators that are holding this up, specifically Senator Sweeney, and maybe you can, maybe your story can help get a new law So I became an advocate. I went in there for selfish reasons and I walked out of that office office representing every abuse victim in the state. And I became an advocate and started meeting with senators and I got to testify before a grand jury or not a grand jury before a senate committee. And in two years they adopted a new law. Some of the advocates were working for over 15 years on this new law law and just it was getting held up, they were getting nowhere, they were getting blocked. And I'm not saying my story like, you know, was deciding factor, but I'm just saying I only had to work on it for two years with them for us to get, finally get the new law passed. What really did it for our state is Pennsylvania. The, the attorney general did an investigation on the, the Catholic Church and they, it was a bombshell reflection report and it was just, it, the numbers were so astronomical that our attorney general then said, I'm going to open up, you know, an investigation, you know, into abuse in the churches as well. And that sort of forced the hand of the senators that were holding it up. And you know, they adopted in the law. The ironic part is Pennsylvania still hasn't adopted the law. They're replaced port. Oh wow. Forced the hand of Jersey. And yet they're still waiting for their law.
- [169:24]
Mark Agnon
What was the reaction from the Senate committee when you gave your testimony?
- [169:27]
Clark Fredericks
You know what, they gave each, each person five minutes and nobody could stay within the five minutes of course. And it was a draining all day affair. You know, this is their, everybody's like their one chance to get their story out in front of all these senators. And the senators would have to bang the gavel like your five minutes is up and people are crying and screaming, no, I'm not done yet. And I'm like, we are losing these senators. I said to this teacher I went down with who was also abused her and I would drive together like we're losing people. I'm like, I'm going to cut my story down and I just cut my story down to like a minute and a half. And I just gave him the gut punch of, you know, waking up in a suicide cell because I had murdered my abuser. And if, if, if you guys don't adopt the new law, you're going to have blood on your hands and you're going to have a lot more clerks running around who feel they have no recourse and they're going to take law into their own hands and it's going to be on all of you.
- [170:31]
Mark Agnon
That's a good Pitch.
- [170:32]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah. You know, and, and, and you know, they, they voted 100% yay. And then had to go to the full assembly it and senate. And that was voted yes. And then it goes to the governor and that was. Yeah, to the governor and that was voted yes.
- [170:53]
Mark Agnon
Wow.
- [170:53]
Clark Fredericks
And, and then we had it.
- [170:55]
Mark Agnon
Wow.
- [170:55]
Clark Fredericks
So, so I worked on that for a couple years and then I, I, I, I stumbled into my first public speaking opportunity. I, I got released basically the first of 2017. I got released 12-3-30. So it was like the start of 2017. And I started going to Bible class at the county jail. And this one guy that came in really connected with him and he wrote me when I was in prison, he's like, you got to come check out our church when you get out. It's a huge church. So I went to his church and just, I know we're going on for a while, but real quick, not at all. When I was in the county, county jail, like I could not pray. Like if I close my eyes to pray, I would see Jesus naked on the cross, like with his penis, everything. Like I have to shake my head out. When I would go to pray, I would see sex images from pornography I looked at. When I would go to pray, I would see the murder, I would see his dead body on the floor. When I would go to pray, I'd be a 12 year old boy screaming, getting, I would just have to like shake my head. Like it was literally making me insane. Like I had polluted my mind. So I was so separated from God, you know, I filled my mind for decades with rage, anger, violence, sex, drugs, alcohol, pornography, you name it. Nothing healthy, nothing good. It was all just crap going into my system. And so I signed up for Bible study even though I couldn't pray. And I'm like, you know, this is the last day, this ditch effort here. And I was convinced that the guy teaching Bible study was going to be a right wing fanatical. Wagging your finger dude at me, right? And I'm like, this guy's an asshole. I'm just going to tell the guards, get me out of here. Like, you know, they'll take you out. And two elevators full of us go down to the floor and I work myself to the back of the room so I'm the last one and I'm watching and he's like shaking hands and he's hugging guys and shaking hands and he's got this, you know, smile on his face and I'm like, you phony baloney And I go up there and he hugs me, and I'm like, stiff as a board. And he whispers in my ear, I've been praying for you, and my congregation has been praying for you. And I pull away from him. I go, do you know who I am? He goes, I know who you are. I read the papers and I go, and you've been praying for me? He goes, yeah. Was like, wow, thanks, bro. He's like, yeah, you got it. And I was like, huh? And we went in there, and he later on said, you know, I started off that. That meeting for you. And he went into the whole free will. He's like, you know, a lot of you are here because people exerted free will in a negative way against you. He goes, we are not puppets on a string where God is saving the day for every calamity or every catastrophe. What would be the sense of life then if God's always going to step in? He goes, God gave us free will, and it could be used for good or for evil, and the person sitting next to you can decide to use theirs for good or evil, and you could be vulnerable, and they could use it for evil, and something bad could happen to you. It doesn't mean that God doesn't love you, doesn't mean that God's not weeping over what's happening to you. It just means that God gave us all free will and it's up to us to how we want to use. Use it. And I was like. And that instantly took that dividing wall I had between me and God down, and I. I went up to my cell that night and I instantly started praying. Like, it was just removed. Like, boom. I could close my eyes and pray. I literally could not close my eyes without just seeing crap like, every time I tried to pray.
- [174:54]
Mark Agnon
And how did it feel to be now praying and just to be free?
- [174:59]
Clark Fredericks
Thank you, God. You know, like, literally, like. And like, I wish. I wish I could pray. Like, I prayed in. In jail. Like, it was so raw, and it was like. Like, in your face to God. Like, hey, man, I'm in. I'm in shit right now, bro. I need your help, man. I don't. I don't. I don't know how to go through another day. Like, help me, you know, And I would. I would literally have to pray for. For help to get through the next 30 seconds. Like, praying for help to get through the next hour or the next day. That was like. Like, I need help just to get through the next 30 seconds. The next 30 seconds. Because I Just like I. I was fighting suicidal thoughts. I was. You know, my. My molestations on the front page of all the papers. You know, I. You know, I've always had drugs and alcohol to lean on when. When I felt uncomfortable. I got nothing now to lean on. The lawyer I picked, he said, I just want you to get this through your head right now, and we're not going to talk about it again. I go, what's that? He goes, you're not getting bailed out. He goes, I don't even want you to, like, entertain that thought. He goes, one. One, I don't trust your mental state. Two, you're an addict. I don't trust you getting out. That you wouldn't go back to drugs and alcohol. Three, you murdered someone. I don't think it looks healthy for you to go be seen in restaurants, in shopping centers and bars without a care in the world. He goes, so I want you to stay here. Here. I want you to work on yourself, and every day you're in here will apply to whatever sentence you get. So just get comfortable in here. I was like, all right, man. You know, so. So that's what I did. And I would tell, like, all the. The young heroin addicts would come in, and they'd want to instantly get out, and they'd be, mom, you got to get me out of here, man. There. There's a. You know, I could hear. Hear there's murderers in here. Me. And I'd be like. I'd be like. They'd hang up, and I'd be like, dude, stop hassling your mother about getting out of here. Just settle in here, get weaned off the drugs. Think about yourself, where your life's at, and, you know, start. Start working on yourself while you're in here. This isn't that bad for you. And they'd be like, all right, man. The next day, they'd be like, mom, you got to get me out. You know, because the. The drugs are calling them, you know, like the pull of the drugs, strong, you know, so. So, yeah, so that. So that was my spiritual start of my spiritual journey. That guy literally held my spirituality in his hand, Brother Bob. And had he done the wrong thing, said the wrong thing, had he not even explained free will to me, I don't know if I'd be where I'm at today. You know, like, faith is a big thing for. For me.
- [178:08]
Mark Agnon
I mean, the story has so much. Like, it's crazy that it's real life.
- [178:11]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Like, we could sit here for 10 hours you know, that's why. That's why people got to get the book.
- [178:15]
Mark Agnon
Yes, but the duality is so interesting. Like, you have this evil cop who abuses you, but then you have this great cop that gives you another chance at life and tells you to plead the fifth and gets you a lawyer. And you have these, you know, evil priests that, you know, abuse people, like people in, you know, your family and, you know, different people in the world. And then you have these, you know, good religious figures that, you know, put you on a spiritual path.
- [178:41]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [178:41]
Mark Agnon
And.
- [178:41]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of duality there. It's fascinating all throughout. Yeah. We didn't even say, like, you know, like, my father ended up dying in 1999, and on his deathbed, he confessed to me that he was molested by a Catholic priest. And I just gotta believe that was his last ditch effort trying to get me to open up to him. Like he had tried when I was younger. He saw my life was going absolutely nowhere. And I think him saying that was just his last chance before he died to, like, I gotta get my son to, like, get over this hump, man.
- [179:20]
Mark Agnon
Now if that confrontation with Dennis Peg had gone differently and you actually just confronted him, like, in the event that you could have gone back, what would you have said to him? What would you have wanted to know?
- [179:32]
Clark Fredericks
You know, I have so many people that reach out to me that want to go confront their abuser, and I just say, no, don't do it. They're. They're evil. They're. They're master manipulators. They're liars. They don't want to heal. They don't want to get healthy. Whatever they're going to tell you is not going to be what you want to hear. They're not going to say, I'm sorry. They never say they're so sorry. They can't. They just can't. They can't go there.
- [180:02]
Mark Agnon
It's psychopathy. I mean, they're truly.
- [180:04]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, they won't do it. And, you know, when I was in prison, my therapist, she said to me, she goes, clark, I just want you to be aware the unit you're housed on, one out of three, closer to two out of three guys are there for sex crimes. He goes. And she goes mostly against children. I'm like, what? She goes, yeah. And I go, holy smokes. And I go, let me ask you something. What do you do for them while they're in here to help them before they get released? And she made no bones about it. That she was as liberal as the day was long. This woman was an angel. She was the sweetest lady, you know, she would say, you know, you can't be a therapist in a prison and not be a liberal person. You know, and so I'm expecting, you know, some. Some feel good answer from her. And she goes, we do absolutely nothing. And I go, what are you talking about? And she goes, clark, they're liars and master manipulators and they don't want help. And anything they say to us would just be a lie to try to get their sentence red. I'm like, really? She goes, yep. So I go, they just sit here doing their time to get out and reoffend. She goes, pretty much. She goes, if their case is that horrific, they can be civilly committed. Our laundry guy, nice, nice dude on the tier did our laundry. Slip him a bag of coffee, he'll put some starch in it, have everything nice and folded for you. Laundry comes back, great. He's telling us, two months. I'm getting out next month. I get out two weeks. I get out one week. I get out, they come, they throw them up against the wall, they shackle them, and they take them away. And we go to. Somebody goes to the guard on duty, they're like, what the hell they take him away from for like, you don't know what he's here for? Like, no. Like, he did the most horrific thing to children, and he just got civilly committed. And we're like, no good, you know, so. Wow. Yeah, dude, it's so. Yeah. Like, people didn't go around with their paperwork. Everybody would lie to you, like, what they're there for. Like, if it ever came out. You didn't even, like. Like, I didn't even bother asking. Like, you know. So my therapist told me about the one out of three. Two out of three. She goes, I don't want people. It's called putting a battery pack on you. She goes, I don't want people knowing why you're here and putting a battery pack on you to go, guys, up. I'm like, and. And I said. I said this to the prosecutor's psych who evaluate, evaluated me before I took the plea deal. He said, how do I know you get released and you're not going to go harm it anyone? And I said, I would only be harming someone who had molested me. And I go, and that person's gone. And so that's what I said to her. I'm like, they're not my battle, you know? Like, I, I, I'm not here to just go. If I got a life sentence first, that would be a different thing. Like, because then it, you know, so I go, you don't have to worry about a battery pack being put on me.
- [183:35]
Mark Agnon
Yeah. So I guess to conclude if, I mean, if you have young kids, be aware of who they're spending time with. Create an open, you know, platform of communication where there's no secrets being held. They can come to you and that you're open and communicative.
- [183:53]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. You can't take that dictator approach. Yeah, you gotta.
- [183:56]
Mark Agnon
If you see them rebelling or, you know, using substances at a, you know, a young age, it's possible that can be a cry for help and be open, listen.
- [184:04]
Clark Fredericks
It's not normal at 12 years old to start doing drugs and drinking.
- [184:07]
Mark Agnon
Right. So see that as an opportunity to speak to them and be open and listen.
- [184:11]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, yeah. And like, all right. So, you know, if you're a single mom and the next door neighbor is always offering, you know, to help out with pay, picking up Susie or Johnny, beware if the coach, you know, just thinks your kid is going to be a star and wants to take them under their wing and, you know, mentor them, beware if, you know, the priest just, you know, adores your child and thinks they're the cutest and, you know, just, I'll drive them home after Bible study practice. Like, you literally can't trust anyone. There's not a troll living under the bridge who's going to snatch your child. There is a coach, there is a priest, there is a doctor, there is a teacher, there is a cop, there is a next door neighbor, there is the uncle, there is all of those who will.
- [185:10]
Mark Agnon
Now, if someone's listening to this that's 20 years old and had sexual trauma, never told anyone just like yourself off, what should they do?
- [185:19]
Clark Fredericks
Well, you gotta, I mean, you know, I, I tell people, you know, people will reach out to me and be like, you're the first one I'm opening up to. You got, you got to find someone you trust. You know, people be like, I don't trust anyone. You know, then I'll call me, you know, reach out to me. I answer all my, my stuff, man. There's nobody who's reached out to me who hasn't gotten answered. You know, it may take a little time, but you just gotta, you gotta find that person. You know, like once you get it out the first time, then it's like, all right, my world didn't just fall apart, you know, like, and just. If you're gonna talk to somebody, everybody thinks they gotta be a fixer. Just the person you're gonna talk to just be like, hey, can we sit? I got something important I want to tell you. I don't need you to. To try to do anything about what I'm going to tell you other than listen. You just need someone to listen. Everybody gets uncomfortable. So if you're listening and you're going to be the one who's the listener, just listen. You don't have to be the healer. Just sit in the mud with the person while they give you their spiel. And if you're the person who was abused, find that person you trust. Your best friend, someone. You can't bury this. You can bury it and buy yourself some time. Time. But it's going to come out. It's going to come out in destructive ways.
- [186:39]
Mark Agnon
Now, there's one person that we didn't. That we didn't talk about.
- [186:42]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [186:43]
Mark Agnon
And it was this girl that you knew in college that was the love of your life that you weren't ready to have intimacy with, you weren't ready to settle down with.
- [186:51]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah.
- [186:51]
Mark Agnon
So you, you know, pursued a different path.
- [186:54]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah. Yeah.
- [186:55]
Mark Agnon
Whatever happened to her?
- [186:56]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, I mean, I walked away, and she walked away, and 30 years went by, and she was like, a little tickle in my skull. Like, it wouldn't come out every week, every month, every year, even, like. But she would flare up, and I'd be like, man, I wonder what Lisa's up to. I'd let Lisa get away, you know, like, man, we had a lot of passion. We had a lot of love, you know, Now I'm out of prison. I get this law passed, and I'm just like. You know, I'm speaking, working long hours, and just like, I either got to get a pit bull or I got to get a girlfriend. And I'm like, I'm at a stage where to be completely intimate with the next person. I got to put Lisa to bed. Like, I can't. I can't really try to get into something where I still got this tickle from somebody from 30 years ago. So I'm going to reach out to Lisa and I'm going to apologize for failing her 30 years prior and not being able to commit and not being able to be intimate. And I'm going to tell her why. And I found her on Facebook. I sent her a private message laying everything out. The murder, the drugs, the molestation, all of it. And just, I needed you to know the Full story. And it wasn't because I didn't love you. I did. And I'm sorry for. For how everything went down. And, you know, I. I like to say my thumb hovered over that send button button, like, because I had this fantasy in my head and hitting the send button and it doesn't go the way I want it to go. That fantasy just gets. So is it better to just keep the fantasy alive in my mind until the day I die or to potentially have that fantasy get blown up and ruined? And I'm like, no, you got to hit the send button. So I hit the send button. And she responds, responded. And I responded. And she responded. I responded, she responded. And I'm like, finally, after two weeks of texting, I said, I want to get a cup of coffee. She lived about a hour and a half away, and we met for coffee and realized we still loved each other. And that was six years ago. We're still together. And we lived together in Westchester, New York, York.
- [189:44]
Mark Agnon
Sometimes it works out. I mean, truly a remarkable story. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing it with me. Every which way. Redemptive, sad, unfair, and ultimately, I think, really profound in a lot of ways and poetic beyond reality. It's truly crazy. This is not just a movie that it's actually something that you listen to, lived through, and, you know, for better or for worse.
- [190:13]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, like, we're touching stuff, you know, like, you know, in the book, I go into more detail on a lot.
- [190:19]
Mark Agnon
Of stuff and when does the book come out?
- [190:21]
Clark Fredericks
July 29th.
- [190:22]
Mark Agnon
Okay.
- [190:23]
Clark Fredericks
Yeah, scarred. It's up on Amazon for pre order, you know, head over and get it. And, you know, I just think, like, so many books when I was locked up, like, just like, were like light bulbs going off in me, and I just think this will be a light bulb, you know, because I sunk to the point where I was held for murdering a lieutenant. I was put into the very jail where he worked for 25 years. It doesn't get worse than that. How much lower do you want to sink? That's. And just didn't see a way out of it. And yet I decided I got to confront this demon finally. And. And here I am today, you know.
- [191:10]
Mark Agnon
Well, thank you so much for doing the show. I appreciate the. The insights and yeah, I think the audience will be. Will be moved by the story and maybe there's some people that we helped out today.
- [191:20]
Clark Fredericks
Awesome.
- [191:21]
Mark Agnon
Thank you so much. Let's do it again.
- [191:22]
Clark Fredericks
Thanks, brother.
- [191:22]
Mark Agnon
Thank you, bro.
- [191:23]
Clark Fredericks
Appreciate it, man.
- [191:23]
Mark Agnon
What's up, people? Quick announcement. If you are a fan of Camp Gagnon or religion camp, I have great news because we are dropping History Camp. That's right. This is the channel. We're going to be exploring the most interesting, fascinating, controversial topics from all time throughout all. All history. Right. You probably know about Benjamin Franklin. I don't know, Thomas Jefferson, Nikola Tesla. Interesting figures from history. And you probably learned about them school. And they were pretty boring. But not here. No. As you know, I was raised by a conspiracy theorist. So I'm going to be diving deep into all of the interesting, strange, occult and secretive societal relationships that all of these famous, influential men from our shared past have. So if you're interested, please go ahead and subscribe. Subscribe to the YouTube channel. It will be pinned in the description as well as the comments. And if you're on Spotify, this doesn't really apply to you, but these episodes will be dropping as well. Just go ahead and give us a high rating because it really helps the show.