King Tut’s Tomb HID A Pharaoh Nobody Cared About

Summary

Camp Gagnon – Episode Summary

Podcast: Camp Gagnon
Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: Dr. Manning (Egyptologist)
Episode: "King Tut’s Tomb HID A Pharaoh Nobody Cared About"
Date: August 26, 2025

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth discussion between host Mark Gagnon and Egyptologist Dr. Manning on the legacy of King Tutankhamun (“King Tut”), the real historical context behind his reign, his burial, and why his famously lavish tomb hides the story of a relatively insignificant pharaoh. The conversation explores the nuances of Egyptian imperial history, the politics of succession, the intersection of religion and kingship, and the reasons ancient Egypt continues to fascinate.

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Main Topics and Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Stage: Ancient Egypt’s New Kingdom

• Timeline: New Kingdom (c.1550–1069 BC), Egypt's imperial high point.
  • (07:14) Dr. Manning: "It's something like 1550 BC...to 1069. That's a pretty hard date at the very end of the New Kingdom."
• Importance of new military technology: horses and chariots—imported and improved by Egyptians into elite status symbols and vital weapons.
  • (05:09) Dr. Manning: "This was the status symbol. This is like having...a Bugatti in your tombstone."

2. Political Context and International Scene

• Foreign influences, especially the Hyksos, brought new technology and trade connections.
  • (06:23) "The Egyptian name for them is Heka Kassut, which means something like rulers or lords of the hill countries."
• The New Kingdom saw Egypt as a primary power in a larger, interconnected Bronze Age world: "It's more international in a sense." (14:22)
• First international diplomacy and treaties (Amarna Letters, Hittites, palace economies across the Eastern Mediterranean).
  • (10:15) "The kings always call each other brother...And they're exchanging women in marriages, that kind of thing. And trade goods, sending gifts."

3. Kingship, War, and Legitimacy

• Kings legitimized by warfare, brutal displays of power, and monumental art.
  • (17:07) Dr. Manning: "These are more like mafia states...brutal people with a lot of young men with pointy sticks behind them, taking turf."
• The importance of performance—kings had to actively “be” kings and assert their rule, at risk of internal and external rivals.
  • (22:21) "You've got to perform. Plus...you have a target on your back."

4. King Tut: Real-Life Background

• Tutankhamun became Pharaoh as a child, during the aftermath of the radical Amarna period under his father Akhenaten.
  • (23:04) Dr. Manning: "He's on the throne technically when he's something like eight, right? Eight or nine."
• He was likely the only legitimate male heir; his mother was probably a secondary wife.
• His reign marked by political restoration after religious and administrative upheaval.
  • (39:15) "He's 8 years old. Massive reforms attempted. A lot of unhappy people with a lot of power now. Total vulnerability."

5. Religion and Power Plays

• Akhenaten, Tut’s father, tried to concentrate power by creating the cult of Aten at Amarna—an act of political, not religious, revolution.
  • (28:49) Dr. Manning: "It's a political move cloaked in religious ideology...to recenter the state in the person of the king."
• After Akhenaten’s death, Egypt quickly reverted to old religious forms.

6. Daily Rule and Challenges for Child Pharaohs

• Power largely exercised by advisors and officials; Tut had little true agency.
  • (39:15) "He has advisors around him who are actually doing the ruling. You can imagine how that might go."
• The system of succession was fragile; if kings died young or left no clear heirs, military strongmen often seized power.

7. Burials, Tombs, and King Tut’s "Accidental" Fame

• Pharaohs began tomb-building immediately upon taking the throne, but Tut’s premature death led to an unusually small, hastily adapted tomb.
  • (53:15) Dr. Manning: "Living long, if you're a king, is really important...Once you're king, day two of your rule is get your tomb started."
• Tut's tomb stood out not because of his accomplishments, but because it was the only royal tomb found intact, untouched by centuries of grave robbing—essentially by accident.
  • (53:15) "He's known because of the tomb goods...because he's buried in...literally a hole in the ground."

8. Discovery of Tut’s Tomb and Global Sensation

• Discovered in 1922 by British archaeologist Howard Carter, after years of dedicated searching.
  • (55:20) Dr. Manning: "Howard Carter, the British archaeologist...finds a staircase...and then the door sealed up."
• The untouched tomb and golden artifacts fueled a modern media sensation, including myths about the “Curse of the Pharaohs.”
  • (71:29) Curse stories were "all generated by London newspapers to sell newspapers."

9. Significance of the Tomb’s Artifacts

• Famous gold death mask and chariots demonstrated the wealth, technology, and craftsmanship of New Kingdom Egypt.
  • (59:29) "The gold mask...remarkable pieces of art...the craftsmanship is extraordinary."
• The contents and the accurate likenesses provided unique, direct windows into ancient Egyptian culture, religion, and daily life.

10. Legacy, Cultural Memory, and Modern Influence

• Even later rulers (the Ptolemies) styled themselves after New Kingdom Pharaohs, showing the lasting legacy of Egypt’s imperial era.
  • (62:29) "The Ptolemies are going back a thousand years earlier to the new kingdom to kind of reinvent what it is to be a king in this world."
• The political interplay between rulers, priests, and foreign dynasties parallels modern challenges of legitimacy, tradition, and power.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chariots as a Status Symbol:
  "This was the status symbol. This is like having...a Bugatti in your tombstone."
  — Dr. Manning (05:09)

• On Kingship in the New Kingdom:
  "These are more like mafia states...brutal people with a lot of young men with pointy sticks behind them, taking turf."
  — Dr. Manning (17:07)

• On the Aftermath of Akhenaten's Rule:
  "Tut is a son from another wife in the harem...and he has advisors around him who are actually doing the ruling. You can imagine how that might go."
  — Dr. Manning (39:15)

• On Why Tut is Famous:
  "He's known because of the tomb goods that were found by accident, because he's buried in...literally a hole in the ground."
  — Dr. Manning (53:15)

• On the Tomb’s Discovery:
  "Finds a staircase and then...the door sealed up. Well, this is something."
  — Dr. Manning (55:20)

• On the Curse Myth:
  "That was all generated by London newspapers to sell newspapers."
  — Dr. Manning (71:29)

• On Caution and Legacy:
  "Would you want to be an illiterate farmer, which is 95% of the population of ancient Egypt, you know? No...everyone who's reincarnated thinks they're going to be King Tut or Ramses, not a farmer."
  — Dr. Manning (82:19)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:42 | Dr. Manning's introduction and Egyptology background | | 05:01 | Chariots as the high-tech status symbol of the New Kingdom | | 14:20 | Egypt’s international diplomatic scene and Bronze Age interconnectivity | | 22:21 | The burden and danger of kingship in ancient Egypt | | 23:04 | Tutankhamun's ascension and the problem of child pharaohs | | 28:49 | Akhenaten’s reforms: religion as a tool for political power | | 39:15 | Tut’s reign as a puppet, changing capitals, and aftermath of Amarna | | 53:15 | Why Tut is remembered: not fame in life, but the tomb's accidental survival | | 55:20 | The discovery of Tut's tomb by Howard Carter | | 59:29 | Gold mask and chariot: funerary art as craft, cultural memory | | 62:29 | Ptolemies invoking New Kingdom Pharaohs and political nostalgia | | 71:29 | The "curse" of King Tut's tomb as media creation | | 82:19 | Ancient Egypt’s realities: short and brutal lives, even for kings, with most people as poor farmers |

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Additional Insights

• Egypt’s priestly class played a crucial role in preserving history and tradition, as well as legitimizing rulers.
• The discovery of King Tut’s tomb drove a century of Egyptomania, reinforcing his fame despite a short, almost irrelevant reign.
• The episode uses wit and modern analogies ("Bugatti in your tomb," "mafia states," "corporate takeover") to make ancient Egypt relatable and highlight the timelessness of power dynamics.
• Dr. Manning challenges romanticized notions of ancient Egypt, pointing out its brutal realities—life for most was short and harsh.
• The tension between looting, national identity, and archaeological context remains relevant both in Egypt and in the global art market today.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode demystifies King Tut’s celebrity, making clear that his fame is mostly a product of modern accident—a boy pharaoh whose otherwise ordinary tomb became the “face” of ancient Egypt purely because it alone survived nearly intact into the 20th century. Through their entertaining and incisive back-and-forth, Mark and Dr. Manning invite the listener to see beyond the gold mask and into the politics, brutality, and psychology of Egypt’s imperial age, drawing parallels to how societies remember and reinvent themselves—then and now.

Transcript

[Host]

Today we are diving into one of the greatest archaeological discoveries of all time, the tomb of King Tut. Today, we're going to unpack who King Tut really was, why his burial site shocked the world, and how this teenage pharaoh became a global obsession. This isn't just an episode about gold and mummies or whatever. It is about power, legacy, and what ancient Egypt can teach us about the world today. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and welcome to camp.

[Dr. Manning]

Hey, guys, it's Christian McCaffrey, pro running back.

[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

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[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

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[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

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[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

I'm well. How are you, Mark?

[Host]

I'm doing excellent, thank you.

[Dr. Manning]

Great to be here again.

[Host]

Yeah. Thank you again for coming on out all the way to Brooklyn.

[Dr. Manning]

Brooklyn, New York City.

[Host]

Yes.

[Dr. Manning]

I always need an excuse to come. It's great to be here.

[Host]

Absolutely. Now, really quick, you've obviously been on the program before and I'm sure the people remember you, but would you mind just explaining your expertise and why you are the person that needs to be talking about King Tut and King Ramses ii.

[Dr. Manning]

Okay. I have two graduate degrees in Egyptology back in the day from the University of Chicago. So that's the Egyptian component. I specialize in later Egyptian history these days. Greco Roman Egypt, the Ptolemies and the Romans when Egypt's a province. And I've expanded into doing much more global history now around climate and things. So I've evolved a bit, but the core of my training goes back to ancient Egypt.

[Host]

Yeah. Now King Tut is obviously, it's ironic. Which we'll discover is one of the most well known pharaohs kings in Egyptian history. Ramses ii, I would say is also up there. Maybe if you're a little bit more in the know. And I think examining these two guys kind of in juxtaposition with each other would be really interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

So can you just explain maybe King's Hut, sort of where he falls in kind of the lineage of Egyptian history and how he sort of came to power and why he matters.

[Dr. Manning]

Okay, so we're in the world of what Egypt tells us call the New Kingdom.

[Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Manning]

The age of empire driven by Egyptian expansion with the hot new technology of the world, ultimately coming from Central Asia. The horse and the chariot, all the accoutrement involved horse training, the bit, the stirrup, and so on, which spreads from Central Asia in all directions in the second millennium B.C. it's a really important technological change. Foreigners, outsiders come into Egypt and govern it for a while, and they bring with them the horse and the chariot. Essentially, the Egyptians tweaked the technology considerably. And it's amazing. And if your listeners and viewers want to pursue this in detail is an incredibly cool article by an automotive engineer who analyzed the Egyptian chariot as if it were a modern car.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

Really cool. And the engineering behind it is actually extraordinary. Only a king could build these chariots. The exotic materials, the exotic woods, the kind of glues they're using, they improved the axle of the wheel, they improved the strength of the wheel. It could turn sharper. They really improved it. In addition to the bit for a horse and. And so on. So the Egyptians took this outside technology, they improved it, and they created an empire from the Sudan all the way to northern Syria for a long period of time, because they could actually move effectively quickly over long distances with these horses. And so it's pretty spectacular and is the high tech of the second millennium bc. It doesn't get higher tech than that. And it's really exotic stuff. And the engineering. And you can go to. I think it's somewhere in Germany. You can go see modern Egyptian chariots being built.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

And, you know, they had suspensions on the wheels. Remarkable.

[Host]

Can we get an image of one of these Egyptian chariots? That's fascinating. And so this is. This is New Kingdom.

[Dr. Manning]

This is New Kingdom.

[Host]

It's a good time to be in Egypt.

[Dr. Manning]

Well, yeah. There's a reason why, speaking of King Tut, that he has several chariots disassembled but buried with him in his tomb.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

So this was the status symbol. This is like having. I don't know what the equivalent is, a Bugatti in your tombstone.

[Host]

I would get buried with a Bugatti.

[Dr. Manning]

I would, too. Yeah. These are Amazing rocket ship kind of cars.

[Host]

And so again, just for the timeline so everyone can be up to speed, you have the New Kingdom. And that is preceded by the Middle Kingdom.

[Dr. Manning]

That's right.

[Host]

And then preceded by the Old Kingdom.

[Dr. Manning]

That's right. Very good. We did the Egyptian history last time, I'll never forget. And there are these intermediate periods which again, Egyptologists are really crummy at naming periods, but there are these intermediate periods. And this period between the Middle Kingdom and the New Kingdom used to be kind of not much happened and it's a bunch of foreigners running around and we don't have good Egyptian kings, so we can kind of ignore it now. There's been a lot of work on this second intermediate period. And these pauses of central control are really important historically because this is when this was when Egypt reinvents itself and hence major differences between Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom. And one of the things that happened in the second intermediate period, these outside people, the Hyksos, the Egyptians call them, come in. They rule Egypt, but they bring with them this technology which the Egyptians then adapt. Tweak.

[Host]

Who are these people? Are they Persian or something?

[Dr. Manning]

No, I mean, so the Egyptian name for them is Heka Kassut, which means something like rulers or lords of the hill countries. They'd been in Egypt forever, long time. There's even Middle Kingdom pictures of these guys as kind of traders coming in from the eastern desert, doing business basically with exotic textiles and their donkeys in tow. There's some really famous tomb scenes of these people. So they've been around Egypt a long time. There are probably different ethnic groups who are not settled, not ethnically Egyptian from the eastern desert, from the Sinai and points even further northeast of that into. Into the Near East.

[Host]

Got it.

[Dr. Manning]

They'd probably been in Egypt forever, especially in places like the Delta.

[Host]

That makes sense. And then New Kingdom, timeline wise, like what year is that roughly?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. And okay, your viewers don't hold me to the date. I'm not good at dates. But it's something like 1550 BC.

[Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Manning]

Or so to 1069. That's a pretty hard date at the very end of the New Kingdom. So it's a 500 year period. Three different ruling dynasties from different parts of Egypt that are, that are in this, this great imperial phase of Egyptian history. Which is, which is remarkable.

[Host]

Dude, you, you pretty much nailed that. 1550 is it. You're to 1070, but I think 1069 is.

[Dr. Manning]

It's a better number, right?

[Host]

Exactly. It's way funnier.

[Dr. Manning]

You know what I Mean, easy to remember exactly.

[Host]

I'll never forget.

[Dr. Manning]

Okay, see, this is my graduate training going back several decades. All this worry about, oh, shit, the dates. Pardon, my friend.

[Host]

No, your professor is going to be very, very impressed with whoever that was. I mean, that's okay. So this, this makes sense. And then like, I guess globally, just to put in context, because that always helps me to kind of like visualize. So like, this is happening at this moment in Egypt. What's happening in Europe? Is there, like, are there like, you know, Rome is not really founded in the way that we understand it.

[Dr. Manning]

No. So this is the bra. This is middle Bronze Age, middle to late Bronze Age. So things are booming in the Eastern Mediterranean. It's the Mycenaean palace period. And in southern Greece, for example, in places like Crete. So the eastern Mediterranean is kind of booming in this Bronze Age culture there. The world of Homer, essentially. Turkey as well, in Northern Europe or Western Europe, I don't know, it's almost, not quite Neolithic. But there are peoples, but they're, you know, are there. There are civilizations of a kind, but not quite yet the first millennium B.C. sophisticated cultures that rise up in places.

[Host]

But the Greeks are having a little moment.

[Dr. Manning]

They're having a huge moment, actually. Greek, the Greek culture, it looks a lot like the near east and Egypt. These are all big palace kinds of economies. Economies are organized around these bigger, the big man kind of palace units, just like in the Near East. So there's a whole Eastern Mediterranean sort of culture that looks similar from place to place. Different languages, different traditions, but more or less organized similarly. And Egypt's a big player. Egypt and the Hittite empire in central modern day Turkey are, are the big rivals, these two big land empires. And Egypt in this period is the game really. There's some city states in the near east that Egypt's related to this diplomatic correspondence going on. The first diplomatic correspondence, the first treaties we have in world history are in this period from the Near East. Even correspondence between city state rulers and Egyptian kings like Akhenaten. The Amarna tablets as recalled a corpus of diplomatic correspondence. Really, really interesting. And the first collection of diplomatic ladders we have in world history.

[Host]

And this is a new kingdom.

[Dr. Manning]

This is a new kingdom.

[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

Fast.

[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

Fast, fast.

[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

So there's a lot of interesting things going on.

[Host]

And what, what is this diplomacy? They're saying, like, hey, we will promise not to attack you guys. We promise not to attack us. Is that, that's.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, there's some, some diplomatic accord because in a world, I mean, this is the whole pre modern world until, you know, the piece of Westphalia in 1648 or whatever, that there's no hegemon, there's no organization on top of independent states saying, okay, you guys, cool it. Let's come to an agreement. There's nothing like that in the ancient world, certainly. So it's brute force defining territory and boundaries and trade deals. So these, these letters, interestingly, these, the kings always call each other brother. Hey, brother, as in familial relations. And they're exchanging women in marriages, that kind of thing. And, and trade goods, sending gifts. I see they're conceived as gifts. It's actually trade. But they're conceptually, these are gifts between equals, between rulers. And so there's a lot of accord. Not always reality, of course, but there's all these efforts. Same with the Hittites and the Egyptians who are duking it out in these major wars in the middle of the Bronze Age.

[Host]

Interesting. Okay, so this is a.

[Dr. Manning]

It's a bigger world than it was before. Yeah, it's more, it's more international in a sense. There's a lot of, a lot of trade going further distances in this world. There's technological change. Bronze is sort of the key, higher, highest tech, let's say the main, the main metal. That already implies a lot of distance cover because it's not just copper anymore, but you need tin, and tin is much rarer. So this is one of the questions archaeologists now are really into is where does the tin come from? They're looking for mines, and there's some in the central Mediterranean. But there's a big debate because there's a huge tin mine in Cornwall in England that's known. And there's a theory that the tin's coming from the Cornwall mines. And if that's the case, there's already a connection between the eastern Mediterranean, these big states, and southern England.

[Host]

Right. There's a massive trade network.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, maybe. I think it's more central Mediterranean sourced. But this is what science. Science will solve this. We can isotopically isolate the mines and the type of tin. But this is one of the cutting edge topics right now is where does the tin come from? And that sort of basic question drives a lot of other things in terms of our understanding of how this world is connected.

[Host]

Because in order matters, in order to make bronze, you need copper and tin.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, I see.

[Host]

And so if you can figure out where the tin comes from, you can tr. You can sort of trace these, these sort of like, you know, logistical supply chains.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. There's like, how global is this world? It's determined by the resources you need.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Which is. Makes cherries kind of interesting because we know where the chariots are coming from and the horses come from Central Asia originally, early in the second millennium. You see, that already implies a movement and connectivity. There's already connectivity in from between India and Mesopotamia in the third millennium bc, which is now really well documented. So we're in a wider, a wider, more interesting world already. This, this Bronze Age world is getting more and more connected. They're figuring out how, how states, how these kings are relating to each other. They're figuring out treaties and correspondence back and forth. All the while there's major wars and the new kingdom in Egypt is dominating the Near East. So lots of niceties, but don't mess with us. And these kings are getting their legitimacy now, all of them from fighting war. That, that is what kings do. Now. You know my theory about all this, this is more like these are more like mafia states. These are more like brutal people with a lot of young men with pointy sticks behind them who are just taking turf.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

And trying to defend that turf.

[Host]

Because if you don't have like a, like, code of conduct, like you have no federalized, like, you know, system of like, how countries are supposed to behave. It truly is just might is right.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And because might is right, there's no reason why you shouldn't get more land, get more rivers, get more mines. Like, if you are a king, that's not creating more conquest for your nation state. What. What did you do?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And so I can see that that would probably lead to A lot of bloodshed and a lot of conflict, and.

[Dr. Manning]

Hard to shut it down because once you get an army rolling in one direction, can't just turn it off, right? Yeah, they're getting stuff.

[Host]

Right?

[Dr. Manning]

They're getting. That's how they're getting paid often is the loot. This is what kings are saying. Okay, okay, guys, go that direction and take what you can. It's hard to shut down. It's hard to control that.

[Host]

Right. And once the campaign goes out, like you said, there's no way to draw them back in.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. It is kind of a machine. It is kind of a feedback because.

[Host]

They get out five, six days. You could potentially send a guy on horseback, but, you know, he'd have to try to really move to catch up. Yeah, interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, can we pull up this chariot again? Because I would love to see if you know any of these specific ones or if you can kind of point out anything on these chariots that you think is. Is interesting. I mean, they, they.

[Dr. Manning]

Some of these are these tuts. Turrets we're looking at. I know. My glasses aren't.

[Host]

It's hilarious that they look so Egyptian. Like, they really had a style. They had a brand.

[Dr. Manning]

That's good. Yeah.

[Host]

The Egyptian brand is strong. You know what I mean? I totally agree because I know nothing about this, but if you showed me this and like a Roman share it, I'd be like, oh, I could tell which one is Egyptian.

[Dr. Manning]

Okay. Yeah. No, the craftsmanship. I mean, a lot of these things. I mean, the ones with gold and fancy art, these are for display. And we know we haven't talked. We maybe talked last time about Amarna and Akhenaten, but there we know they built an entire kind of arena, a sort of a stadium for the sole purpose of the king and queen on their chariot, going around and saying hello to people, just sort of like performing kingship. Yeah. A meet and greet under a horse and chariot, and they're, you know. So these are display pieces. I don't think I'd want this in battle with me. But fun fact, by the way, you can date chariot wheels by the number of spokes. I always tell students this. So if you see four spokes on a wheel. Dynasty 18. How's that for being a nerd?

[Host]

I mean, that's pretty. That's pretty.

[Dr. Manning]

Dynasty 19 and 26 spokes.

[Host]

Really?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, interesting. So I. I imagine as time went on, they were like, hey, we need to reinforce.

[Dr. Manning]

We need to. We need to bolster up the strength of the wheel or, you know, they're, they're, they're, but they're, you know, they're understanding dynamics and so on to some extent, I guess.

[Host]

Oh, fascinating.

[Dr. Manning]

But if you look at art, you, you can right away now go to, you know, a New kingdom art scene. Four spokes or six spokes. Oh, it must be Dynasty 18 relief.

[Host]

And if someone's trying to sell you a painting of a six spoke thing saying it's 18th dynasty, you're like, oh, yeah, fraudulent. This is a copy.

[Dr. Manning]

Okay.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Like now you owe me 10%.

[Host]

Yeah. Commission on that.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's fascinating. And so these were buried with King Tut.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, I think King Tut had several in his, in his tomb. I mean, there is a theory. It's. How did he die? He's poisoned, he's pumped off, which is, you know, not unusual in the, in royal families. Of course he had some kind of accident. He was murdered. It, it looks like he had a broken or fractured cheekbone from whatever reason. And you know, one of the theories that's been floated that I sort of like, even though it's made up mostly is that he's fell off his chariot at one point.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Manning]

I kind of like injury.

[Host]

Yeah. Maybe fast and furious.

[Dr. Manning]

He killed himself. It was drag racing. Yeah. His parents said, don't take that out at night. And he went and fell off.

[Host]

I mean, he was 18, right? Yeah, that's what 18 year olds do. Yeah, well, yeah, you know what I mean? Like that holds incredibility.

[Dr. Manning]

I, I sort of, I like this theory actually. And it's not, you know, a palace murder. It sounds better than he completely screwed up and he had some bump not, you know, thrown from the chariot. Easy to do these things, they look great and, and stuff.

[Host]

But I think you can tell a lot about a historian based off which theory they like more. You know what I mean? If you're the historian, that's like, I like the romance and the drama and the gossip. It's like, oh, you're, you're a theater kid, you know what I mean? But if you're a historian, it's like, no, this guy was going 120 down the highway, he was off like six beers or whatever. They were drinking and then crashing.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's in the ditch.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Manning]

And yeah, you know, it, it does sort of make some sense.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

But this is the high prestige thing. These kings and their armies deriving a lot of power, a lot of legitimacy, which is important because the kingship is Performative in this world. It's not like, well I'm the king now, so everyone has to obey me. That's not the real world of kingship. You actually have to go out and perform. I would not want to be a king in this world. Much better. Like a middle level priest. I think that's probably where I would.

[Host]

Fit because the kings have that much pressure.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, you've got to perform. Plus first of all, you have a, you have a target on your back. If you're a king in the palace with multiple wives, which was standard, so multiple heirs. So you have already sets up.

[Host]

Yeah. A dynamic secession problems immediately major.

[Dr. Manning]

And you know, then you're having foreign wives too because that's part of the political arrangements. And then you get international implications of who's who in the family and so on and so on. So to be a king in this world is really rough. And to be king taught to go back to our hero here, he's on the throne technically when he's something like eight, Right? Eight or nine. How did that work?

[Host]

Yeah. So how do these child emperors like, what can you tell me about King Tut's family and sort of his line of secession?

[Dr. Manning]

Well, so his father was certainly Akhenaten in Amarna. He was probably, his mother was probably a secondary wife, not Nefertiti as far as we know. So right. Father different, different mother. So he's sort of in line but it turns out to be the only, only male that was legitimate. So close enough. So he's on the throne.

[Host]

And what happens to Agnant again?

[Dr. Manning]

He, well, he dies.

[Host]

But was there any type of circumstance he has like a long reign?

[Dr. Manning]

Not particularly long. Longer than taught. I forget the number of years we're assigning to him, but it's, you know, it's a couple decades anyway, something like that.

[Host]

A significant rain.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. Significant rain, yeah. Are we looking at dates? This is new. I like this.

[Host]

Yes.

[Dr. Manning]

This is better than me looking at my iPhone. What is that one of those dates?

[Host]

Let me see. Okay, so all right, you got like 17 years during the 18th dynasty.

[Dr. Manning]

There you go.

[Host]

And he's best known to modern scholars for the new religion he created that's centered on the Aten.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, so you know, he's. So here's another, you know, let's get the real world. I wanted to talk about religion just for a second because we talked before the show about religion. One of the things that happens with these empires is the, the creation, the elevation of universal gods. So Egypt has lots of gods, different Parts of Egypt from the 18th Dynasty. This is a Theban ruling family. Originally whose God was Ammon, local God in in Thebes, modern day Luxor. He gets elevated, he gets joined to the old sun God Rey becomes Amon Re. Amon Re, king of the gods.

[Host]

That's the big one. I've heard of this. I've heard people say, Amun, Ramon Ra.

[Dr. Manning]

Amun Ra, king of the gods. This is the new kingdom, the God of conquest. We are conquering those guys over there in the the near east every, every year in the name of Amun Re, King of the gods. And we're bringing all the loot we can and dedicating it to the God in his temple. This temple becomes enormous and incredibly wealthy. Incredibly wealthy and influential with centuries of war loot and you know, it's pretty fierce. If we believe the stories and believe the artwork in, in this temple, when you come back victoriously from a military campaign, you're also bringing off the cut off hands of the foreign soldiers and cut off penises.

[Host]

Damn.

[Dr. Manning]

And offering to the God Almond Ray, Kingdom of gods. And they're piled up. They're depicted piled up in front of the temple.

[Host]

That's a little suspect.

[Dr. Manning]

It may be a bit overdramatic what's.

[Host]

Going on with Amon Ra, but you.

[Dr. Manning]

Get the, you get the point. I mean, yeah, Amon, we got to.

[Host]

Check his hard drive. I'm in. RAW is like, hey, brings back some dongs for me.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, like, lots of like, whoa, all.

[Host]

Right, what's our God up to? But this is no disrespect to Amen Ross. Right.

[Dr. Manning]

But I mean, this is imperial conquest. And, and Egypt's not the only place where you have this, this creation of the. The big, big gods. Big universal gods. And of course there's a lot of poetry that if Amon Ray King the gods is the only God that matters. He's the God of the universe. So we get to conquer everywhere. And the Egyptian texts say this everywhere the sun is shining on Earth. That is Amun Ray's land. That is universal empire. Yeah.

[Host]

It's like Lion King and.

[Dr. Manning]

And that's. Yeah, yeah. That's the claim.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

For all these kings.

[Host]

So that's going to embolden a conquest. Right. Like that will, like if you are a military leader, a warlord, like that will get the people going. You say, hey, everything's ours. Our God said so.

[Dr. Manning]

Yep. Yeah, I see. And it feeds back into the temple, I. E. The priesthoods being really rich and powerful. And this is a story of Akhnaten just to close that loop if I can is Akhenaten says I I want to. He's not a religious reformer. And the Athena is not a new God either. The Aten is the sun disc. But he sort of elevates it into his personal important deity in a sense going back to the old kingdom and the solar religion. Because these priesthoods of Amun re have way too much power. So I'm going to reconfigure the society. It's about me, the king. It is not about you guys, the wealthy priests who are sitting all this loot. It's about me and my family and the sun God, which is actually conceptually, it's his father Amenhotep iii. It's really a little bit strange, but it's a political move cloaked in religious ideology and symbolism and movement of the capital into this literally in the middle of nowhere place, Amarna, the horizon of the Aten it's called in Egyptian. There's nothing there before or since. It's occupied for 17 years. It's great if you're an archaeologist because it's one of the only cities that's ever been excavated full.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

Because there's nothing on top of it. It's sitting in the desert. Was occupied for 17 years and never again.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

So that's a really cool place ontologically, you know. But so religious reformer, I would say not so much as he's using religion and theology to justify what he's doing to recenter the state in the person of the king.

[Host]

I can see that being an issue. Right. Like if you are the emperor and everyone's like, hey, we love the Emperor but there is a God above you. And so there's someone that is checking your power. And if the priests are the ones that are able to dialogue with God, all of a sudden that is an affront to your authority. So you have to somehow usurp that. You can either kill all the priests, which then could cause revolution or something, or you can just say actually the priest got it a little bit wrong. There is a God and I am he. Yeah, interesting. Like I feel like you see this in Rome also. Right. Like with the emperors of Rome you go from like, you know, sort of like this monarchy to like a republic. And then these elected people now are like, I am God himself. Like I forget. I think Julius Caesar before his death was like kind of the shift there.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, there's that's going on in the late Roman Republic. You know, it goes on with Alexander the Great too, by the way. And his father Philip ii, that, well, we're kind of like, we're pretty close to divinity. It's not a big crevasse to leap over to say, actually we are right. Actually we are divine.

[Host]

And you start showing art of you, you know, as depictions of you that are resembling the gods of the time. You can imagine like a president, that his official portrait is him with like a halo or like a crown of thorns. You'd be like, oh, you're starting to echo some religious ideals to try to compare so people can conflate you with divine.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, I see. So when he creates a 10, this is his attempt of basically pulling the power back from these high priests into his family.

[Dr. Manning]

That be. That'd be my historical read of things. I think that's the consensus these days. There's a lot of debates. But I mean, bottom line, I think that's, that's what he's doing. It's. It's an old religion, it's not a new religion. It's actually goes back to early old kingdom.

[Host]

Well, that's the one you have to take if everyone.

[Dr. Manning]

But hey, that's. Kings were kings and they're building these huge pyramids and that's when kings are really good. After all, they were the only authority make Egypt in the state it is. Kind of. Exactly. Let's go back to the old, the old pyramid days a thousand years before. Which is, which is what it is, right? Amazing.

[Host]

What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you own a small business, or maybe you work for a small business and I am about to make your life so much easier. Let's say hypothetically, you own a little, you know, furniture business, right? And you're struggling to keep track of the raw materials, the production schedule, invoicing clients, all that stuff. Well, that's why I want to tell you about Odoo. Okay. Because with Odoo, it's an all in one business platform that streamlines everything. Now you have inventory management, you have manufacturing, you have accounting apps that will make everything so simple. So now if you have a small business, you can monitor the inventory in real time, schedule productions calls more effectively, and you can send invoices automatically, all from one platform. Plus you get a customized CRM to track sales leads and follow up with potential clients, boosting your closing rates. Back in the day, you'd probably have to get, you know, some, you know, Ivy League operator business person that's, you know, able to make everything happen for you. But now with Odoo, it cuts it all out. And I'm sure you're thinking, okay, if this is going to make my life easier, give me more free time to spend with my friends, family and playing softball and make me more money. It must be crazy expensive. This is the good news. Listeners of this program are going to get a 14 day free trial. That's right. You get two weeks with Odoo completely for free. When you go to odoo. That's right, odoo.com use the promo code camp and you will get 14 days for free just to try it out, see if you like it. If it's not for you, you don't need it. All right. But Odoo is going to make your life so much easier. Everything you need, all in one place. Save time, make more money. Now let's get back to this.

[Dr. Manning]

Lowe's knows that no matter your paint project, saving is at the top of your list. That's why when you shop today, you can buy one, get one free. Select Valspar and HGTV home by shop. Sherwin Williams one Coat coverage interior paints via rebate. Shop these deals in store or online today at Lowe's, we help you save. Selection varies by location while supplies last. Discount taken at time of purchase. See sales Associate for details. Offer valid 821 through 9 3. So they're kind of reinventing things. That's. That's Aknoton. Now he dies. You can imagine the blowback. Not a popular. Not a popular person. He has six daughters and one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life was when I was living in Egypt as a graduate student years ago, I went exploring with a Dutch colleague in all through Egypt. And we went out to Amarna and met with an antiquities guy in the local town. You know, we need a key to get to the royal tomb because it's like 20km or something out in the eastern desert. It's quite a journey. Amazing. But we got it. And we got to see the royal tomb at where Akhnat and Nefertiti theoretically were buried. There's a famous scene in there of the funeral of one of their daughters. And they were beloved daughters and a lot of affection shown between Akhnate, Nefertiti and their daughters, which is unusual for Egyptian royal scenes. And the whole art of the period also is naturalistic and expressive, almost baroque. The whole, the whole culture has changed momentarily. It's really interesting.

[Host]

Do we have an image of that? I would love to see what that.

[Dr. Manning]

Looks like, it's, it's the funeral scenes is, is beautiful. The art is beautiful. It's a bit weird. It's very stylized, kind of on purpose, but it's trying to knock out the artistic canons too. Like everything goes away. Like we're doing something, we're doing new things in this. It doesn't go, it doesn't last. But it's an effort to reshape artistic styles and religious practice. It's about the sun and open air temples. It's open for everybody. There are these interesting conceptions that he developed, which is why people think it's revolutionary and he's leading toward monotheism. That's a bit of a stretch. But the hymns to the Aten that were in the tombs at Amarna have been compared to Old Testament hymns, by the way. Really interesting things. So. And we can, if we have time, we can talk about why that might be. But yeah, there's. Is that from the, the royal tomb.

[Host]

Relief of Nefertiti kissing her daughter?

[Dr. Manning]

Okay, that's. Yeah. I mean, this is not, this is not done in Egyptian. This is not decorum.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

You know, Egyptian art, royal families are like really stiff, you know, not people you'd like to have a beer with on a Friday night. I can imagine, you know, not very warm and friendly. The, the Amarna art of the royal family is informal. There's mom and dad with their kids on the lap. I mean, it's, it's like not heard of.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

So he's really trying to reshape what the royal family is about and how it's portrayed. And for us now, this is, this is nice. This is family affection.

[Host]

Right?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, we get, we get that. We don't necessarily get later when we talk about Ramsey ii, these big monumental statues of this guy. You know what. But that everyone understands is it's just a family. But daughters, right? Daughters.

[Host]

And was the death of this daughter, was it sudden or tragic?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, it looks like it. Young. Died young. There is in this period of Egypt and elsewhere and probably related to the, all the international trade that's happening, some form of plague. We're understanding that better and better now through paleo genomics, the science of that really can nail down pathogens and, and things. That's really interesting. So there's, there are things circulating and of course with military movement and trade, you get the downside, which is the wider spread of pathogens.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

So we're speculating on why this young girl died, but maybe it was a disease.

[Host]

I see. So I mean, such a deviation in art to kind of, I don't know, like bring up this like super emotional kind of poetic scene. It would make sense to me that it was in some way tragic or like, in some way, you know, like it seemed like it burdened the king in some capacity.

[Dr. Manning]

It must have. Cause he's depicting in the royal tomb, the funeral's depicted, which is also weird. It's unusual. So this was serious.

[Host]

And you saw this?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

And it's published. We wanted to go out there. That part of Egypt's not a tourist area, so very rarely would tourists go there. And the tourist route doesn't go through Middle Egypt these days, unfortunately, because it's the most glorious part of Egypt in my view.

[Host]

I mean, could you go there as a tourist?

[Dr. Manning]

You could. You have to be pretty adventurous. I mean there are no hotels. Right. You'd have to not mind rural Egypt. But if you don't, I tell you, yes, go. And you know, you have to be careful and, but, and you'd, you'd be required I think still to have a military escort if you're going outside of the, the big tourist zones. So you might need permission these days. But I think it's worth it. I think, I think it could do it. It's. It's definitely something to have on your list of things you've seen because it's not a standard thing to see and this tomb is well published, but to see the real thing is pretty extraordinary and it's, it is emotional and the emotions of Amarna art is part of the appeal and maybe that's part of the conception of kingship that Akhnaten was trying to push.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

That he's more. He's more personal. And the Aten is. This is the sun. It's the sun disc. It's open to everybody.

[Host]

It's most populous.

[Dr. Manning]

It's. It's the creative force. It turns out the sun of course is the creative force right in our. On our planet. So they weren't wrong about that, right?

[Host]

Actually kind of remarkable.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, no, they were kind of right on actually. Sun's pretty important indeed. Anyway, so. So this is this amazing period. The amount of period Agnaten and six daughters dies. Okay, succession problem as usual. Tut is a son from another wife in the harem standard. And new came for new king pharaohs to have many wives. And he's it but man. And he has advisors around him who are actually doing the ruling. You can imagine how that might go. Yeah, of course not. Not great.

[Host]

I imagine Nefertiti's kind of pissed.

[Dr. Manning]

Not great. Yeah, well, pretty vulnerable too, right now. Instantly unimportant.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Doesn't matter. No male heir.

[Host]

Sorry.

[Dr. Manning]

Totally vulnerable.

[Host]

Even though that's Agnan's fault.

[Dr. Manning]

Right, Right.

[Host]

No, like, I'm pretty sure, like, gender is decided through, like the sperm. Right?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

So, I mean, that's what I've heard. I don't know if that's the case. I've heard that with like King Henry, that like, like the woman is always X and then the sperm is either X or. Yeah.

[Dr. Manning]

Oh, I see. I see what you're saying. But why no male heir?

[Host]

Yeah, exactly. It's his fault. And now Nefertiti is just out of the picture.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Because quite literally we get all these ex.

[Dr. Manning]

It doesn't end well. The very powerful priesthoods throughout the country who are not part of the game anymore, removed in a sense from the political picture of Egypt. The king is in the middle of nowhere, literally governing, but not on military campaign as before in the. In the New Kingdom, Dynasty 18, before Tutmosis III, the Napoleon of ancient Egypt, great military conqueror. So there were people before that created this empire out on conquest in the near east and in Nubia in modern Sudan. But Akhenaten is writing poetry in the middle of nowhere, kind of, and reconceptualizing kingship and society in some ways, to whatever extent, we don't know, but it looks like he's in that direction or wants to go in that direction. It doesn't work. He's trying to reform the state. If we have time, we can talk about. There's a lot going on with this thing about the Axial Age. Carl Jasper is this German philosopher who creates this period in the. Between 800 and 300 or 200 B.C. when there are all the. When everything changes. Many places in you have philosophers in Greece, you have the Chinese learned men like Confucius, you have the Old Testament prophets. A lot of societies are reformed in this first millennium bc. Egypt doesn't reform in Jasper's theory, it just stays the same. But actually, you could argue that the reforms of Akhenaten was anticipating later things a few hundred years later, that there were these reforms between religion and society, the rulers all over the place. But later anyway, for whatever reason, these reforms don't go very far. We could. And then we have Tut. That's the context of. He's 8 years old. Massive reforms attempted. A lot of unhappy people with a lot of power now. Total vulnerability. No one around him really? Courtiers who are running the show on his behalf. We're moving, we're moving back to Memphis, the traditional capital, or down to Thebes, where the family's from. Those are the two kind of centers in this world politically and religiously. But we're, we're not staying in this God awful place in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. And so Tut had a. I mean pretty hard. I, I would say. Now you're asked why he matters. I mean he matters really because he comes at, at the end of this Amarna period, which is interesting in a lot of ways. And then the tomb.

[Host]

Does he do his kingship in Amarna?

[Dr. Manning]

No.

[Host]

So he goes to Memphis.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, I think he's probably there. He's also in Thebes. You know, there are two kind of political centers which is how Egypt always works in a country you can imagine is 500 miles long and 20 miles wide.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Which is what Egypt is. It's kind of hard, it's not easy to govern from a single place in the north. You need a couple of places to coordinate. And that's in the new kingdom that this becomes Memphis, the ancient capital. And then thebes, where the 18th dynasty ruling family comes from.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

That's kind of hometown.

[Host]

So what does life even look like for an eight year old emperor? Like I imagine it's just all like family and courtiers that are kind of just doing everything. And then at a certain point you have to like try to get control back once you're of age.

[Dr. Manning]

I guess that's the calculus. How that works is the difference between a really clever king, a long lived king like Ramses II will talk about or even Hatshepsut also an 18th dynasty ruler as a woman. Which is incredible. Wearing male costume all the time because. Because Egyptian kingship is male.

[Host]

Oh wow.

[Dr. Manning]

It's all match. It's a macho male world with a lot of animal totems. And the one title Hatshepsut, who's the, the aunt of Thutmose iii who eventually he takes over and goes on these big military conquests. That's how you grab power in this world. But Hatshepsut sort of does the same thing. I mean she must have been extraordinary.

[Host]

How old is she?

[Dr. Manning]

I think in her 30s. But she kind of, she, she is kind of regent for Thutmoses iii but actually claims the throne at a certain point. And all the titles. Extraordinary move. This is a woman and takes all the titles of kingship except one which is very ancient. The one that we translate Strong bull. Because that's one of the epithets of a good king. It goes way back in the pre dynastic period that the. The bull is symbolic of kingship. Really powerful and strong, etc. She doesn't take that title for gender.

[Host]

Reasons because as a woman would it be too difficult to convince the people like, oh, I am. I am. All the facets of a king, including the strong.

[Dr. Manning]

Including strong bull. People say, I see. No.

[Host]

And so what. What are some of the other ones like you like as far as kingly delineation? You have to be strong like a bull.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. I mean king of Upper and Lower Egypt or these sort of. There were five standard titles. Descendant of the God Ra, the sun God. You know, the standard royal epidemic that are very ancient. Probably they go back all, I think to predynastics.

[Host]

So she can justify those.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

But that one is sort of pulls.

[Dr. Manning]

Pull that off.

[Host]

Inertly masculine.

[Dr. Manning]

And she's wearing even a false be kingship. Yeah, she's depicted that way. So she's. It's extraordinary how she. She must have been an extraordinary tough and really smart to outmaneuver a lot of men probably who thought this was a really bad idea. And eventually she gets removed by Thutmose III once she's old enough and. And so on. The other thing about this world because it's horse and chariot and empire is it is a military world. Right. It is a world of soldiers. The whole new kingdom. It's tough to be a boy king in that world. He wants to try driving chariots around. He's probably learning how to be a king. He's probably learning Egyptian traditions, story literature, stories. I don't know if he learned how to read and write or not. Probably most kings were not literate, but we don't know much. I don't think about that. But maybe a little bit temple rituals, you know. But learning how to be a king with all the rituals were in the temples the kings are supposed to visit every now and again. There's a lot probably to know and just being out and about displaying that you're the man even if you're a boy. Interesting that that's probably a lot right there to. To live up to.

[Host]

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[Dr. Manning]

Y. Yeah, not a lot. I think there's. There's. There's an effort to restore military conquest and restore the empire, which looked like it had fallen on a bit of hard time. It slid a little bit because there wasn't continuous military campaigns. The Amara letters I talked about, this diplomatic correspondence found at Amarna, found at Aknatan's capital, are really interesting because he's corresponding with all the rulers diplomatically, politically, but they're not on military campaigns sort of enforcing Egyptian empire there so much. But that, that gets restored, they go back to that and post Tut, whether he's murdered, gets sick or falls off the chariot, the end of the dynasty, are all unrelated military guys really the last couple?

[Host]

And is that because he was a boy that gets in. So does he have children? Is there any sort of clear.

[Dr. Manning]

No, yeah, no, not. Not yet. For whatever reason.

[Host]

So then it would go to like, his advisors or like General.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, in a world of military power, the guys with military power easily can be the boss. Unless you're the king at the head. At the head of your army, someone else will.

[Host]

And is there a, like, historically or traditionally in the new kingdom, is there a secession pattern for if there are no male heirs as it go to like, was it basically like, oh, we have either a military leader or it goes to like an uncle or like. Or is this like a coup d' etat where the military comes in and basically sets up their own government? Government?

[Dr. Manning]

Well, I think very often what happens, you know, idea. Here's a problem with kingship kind of broadly. We even see it in the modern world. You know, it should be a really nice family and it should be father to son. In the ancient world, for sure. Different modern monarchies, but in the ancient world it's father to son. But that works for about a generation until the wheels start falling off that car. And then what? In a world of multiple marriages and multiple heirs and then, yeah, the oldest son in theory is the legitimate successor. But so often that doesn't work. And so often there are, I mean, there's more than one example of kings getting bumped off, including the. At the end of the New Kingdom with Ramses III relate, you know, an heir of Ramses II who gets murdered in the harem, of all places.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

And we, we have stories about that. We have magical texts to talk about people in the harem related to the king and women who are making magical texts to guarantee the successful assassination. But nobody believed that ramses III in 1069 was actually murdered until when we have his mummy, which is one of the cool things about New Kingdom pharaohs. We have most of the bodies.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

And Ramsey III has all his bandages around the neck and no one removed the bandages before, but they did CAT scans not so long ago and they removed the bandages, slit ear to ear. Turns out he was murdered.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. I mean, it's. What, it's the grimmest. It's. I'm not sure you want to pull that one up. It's the grimmest mummy that exists.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

And he, he was actually murdered and in, in the harem in. In Thebes of, of the, the palace section of his, of a. His funerary complex, which was palace plus funerary temple.

[Host]

I see.

[Dr. Manning]

Built to perpetuate his memory. But he wasn't quite ready. He had lived a long time and there's reasons why the New Kingdom's in decline. The so called Bronze Age collapse and a lot going on. But it looks like there was an inside job with an air involved. It's, it's, it's ready. Can you, you see the bandages there? That's. Those are not. I think. Yeah. But if you remove those bandages around his neck, you can see that they, they stitched up the, they stitched up the. The throat. You can. You can see the. The stitching up before he was mummied. There he is.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's bizarre how clear his face is.

[Dr. Manning]

Well, yeah. I mean, this is the weird thing about New Kingdom pharaohs is we actually have them.

[Host]

We know what they look like.

[Dr. Manning]

We know what they look like. Yeah.

[Host]

It's bizarre.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. Indeed.

[Host]

Damn. So he gets killed. He's murdered in his harem.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Do we know who did it during a festival?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. Well, we do, because. Yeah. There's all. There's a whole story. Okay, that'll take. That's another show.

[Host]

Maybe get to that. We can get to that. So as far as King Tut goes.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, let's try wrap up Tut.

[Host]

My understanding, no pun intended, my understanding is that Tut is known because of how insignificant he was. Is that a misnomer?

[Dr. Manning]

Well, he's known because of the tomb goods that were found by accident, because he's buried in the hole in the. Literally a hole in the ground. So it turns out living long, if you're a king, is really important, because if you're an old. If you're Cheops of the Old Kingdom, or if you're Ramses ii, you have really long reigns, you get a really nice tomb. Now, once you're king, day two of your rule is get your tomb started to be built.

[Host]

You're doing that while you're alive.

[Dr. Manning]

Oh, yeah. Got to. Got to. It took years and years. If you look at the Valley of the Kings and the size of these tombs cut into living rock. Oh, my God. No. It's years and years of labor. And also, interestingly, there's not a tomb there that's finished. It's always a little bit unfinished. And the theory is, well, if the tomb is really finished, then it's ready for its owner. It's occupier, and it's like a curse, right. Because you're still alive. So you can never finish the tomb. And then when you die, okay, Burial and stuff. But no need to. No need to finish up that corner of the room because. Oh, that's already buried. So if you look at. If you go to the Valley of the Kings, you can see there's little bits of these tombs that are still. But no, you need a long reign to make sure that you're perpetuated forever in your tomb and in your funerary temple. These kings of the New Kingdom are building these massive temples in Western Thebes in front of the Valley of the Kings with priesthoods to perpetuate their memory forever. And then the burial site is separate back in the Valley of the Kings. It's protected, it's guarded, and in theory, no one can rob those tombs, but, but they're robbed like day two of burial every single time. And Tut's tomb was actually robbed twice, it looks like.

[Host]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, there's evidence, there's definitely evidence of being broken into, but they caught him or something and stuff still survives for whatever reason. So we got lucky. So that one was probably about to be robbed.

[Host]

So where was Tut's tomb discovered and who discovered it and under what circumstances?

[Dr. Manning]

So this is Howard Carter, the British archaeologist. Life's work is he wanted to find this tomb and it was, it was found. I forget the tomb is right out in front of. But it's in the Valley of the Kings, but it's, it's like a, almost a hole in the ground next to a main tomb. So it was obviously dug, prepared really quickly. It may have been like a storeroom originally, something like that. So they had something excavated. But it's really tiny compared to the New Kingdom tombs of the, the other pharaohs. It really is small and tiny and not so, not so great.

[Host]

I wonder if that would indicate that his death was sort of surprising and sudden and you know, like they expect, you know, you're an eight year old kid. We'll start working on your tomb in a couple months and you'll reign for 40 years and we'll have your tomb finished.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then he's 18, his reign's cut short.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And like, all right, we'll put him in this thing that we have.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, we got. You got to go, got to go somewhere, got to put him somewhere. And they jam all this stuff in the tomb. So. So Howard Carter, years and years supported by Lord Carnarvon, famously, you know, and actually stumbles on this, finds a staircase and then a stair and then two stairs and then all of a sudden the door sealed up. Well, this is something.

[Host]

And that's, that's a pretty remarkable. Could you actually look up the seal of Tut's tomb? I remember seeing an image of this and it's, it's remarkable. I imagine it's like difficult to really fathom the feeling he must have had because he was searching for this specifically. Yeah, this is like the twenties.

[Dr. Manning]

Yep.

[Host]

And so he's searching for teens and twenties.

[Dr. Manning]

You found, I think it was discovered in 1922 formally. So he was searching it, searching for it for a long time before.

[Host]

And he wanted this one Specifically. And he's searching around and he's trying to figure out exactly where it is. And then you find a staircase and you start digging upstairs.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then you see this thing.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And you must be like, holy shit.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. And the amazing thing is, is okay, we got it. We got to telegraph Lord Carnarvon in England and get him over here and have this big ceremony for the opening. And that, that took a while.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Can you imagine like sitting around sipping tea for a length of time and not opening it?

[Host]

It's Christmas Eve for like four months.

[Dr. Manning]

Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, it's terrible. Amazing. That's amazing.

[Host]

So the fact.

[Dr. Manning]

Quite a story.

[Host]

The fact that it's sealed would indicate that no one's ever been in there, right?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, but you can. There's, you know, other ways in to the rock, other entry points.

[Host]

I see.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

So he goes in there and finds the sarcophagus.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. Finds all this stuff. Like it's like somebody's garage. Just all sorts of stuff. Gold shimmering in the light and you know, in the. Not candle light, torch light or so. Yeah.

[Host]

What a scene, dude. I mean that, like that, that gives me goosebumps.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, it is, it is. It is what everyone wants as an archaeologist, that sort of moment, truly, you know. Yeah. So that was a. That's a good one. Now we can talk about the significance of the Tut stuff. But that's why Tut is famous. Not really famous for a reign, the boy king. That's got some romance to it, I guess, post Amarna period, the restoration that he's involved with and speculating about. What was it like as a nine year old kid in the grip of courtiers and you know, trying to stay alive.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Without much family around him, who cared about the, who cared about him as a boy, you know, there's like none of that.

[Host]

And so his tomb. Is there anything significant that we know today that's like sort of like, you know, common discourse about Egyptology where they're like, oh, that's from Tut's tomb or is there anything else that was discovered there that's, you know, that changed archaeology.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. I mean I think this gets too much attention and it got us be controversial about it because then while that's Egypt, that's ancient Egypt is the stuff of royal tombs. We had more rural tombs. What would we have? We just have more, more gold stuff, you know, now the technology, I mean the chariots.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Are interesting. The gold mass, there are three of them. These are remarkable pieces of art. The craftsmanship is extraordinary.

[Host]

Create an image of those.

[Dr. Manning]

You go to the Egyptian Museum now, the new one. You know, when you can see these things on display, I think they'll be in the. In new museum out in. Out in Giza, but extremely well polished. And two sheets of gold that are beaten on the inside to form the likeness of Todd. And it's a really close likeness of him. Extremely accurate. Even the broken cheek is apparently reflected like a couple centimeters off one from the other, and that's reflected in the mask. So the craftsmanship is extraordinary. It tells us something about taste and culture and the. The level of craftsmanship. Remember the tweaking of the chariots? You know, I mean, this ultimately comes out of carpentry.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Building the chariot is sort of carpenters doing it, but then exotic materials and figuring out a new axle and stronger wheels, et cetera.

[Host]

Interesting. Yeah. I guess this is an important thing to sort of define because being able to see the death masks, like these gold plates, and also the sarcophagus itself, and the fact that we can tell that they're so close gives a lot of confidence that anytime we see other depictions or art, that it did actually look like the person it was depicting. You know, it wasn't like, oh, this is a generous portrayal. Like, no, this is pretty much what the dude looked like. And so even if you don't have the sarcophagus or some other issue like the statues and sculptures, you can kind of trust, you know, based off of the craftsmanship, like, oh, this is representative.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, there's a likeness. But, you know, it tells us a lot about the level of technology and craftsmanship in this empire imperial period, when Egypt is casting a really big shadow across Northeast Africa into the Mediterranean and into the Near East. That this culture, gold in particular, this. This was the height of ancient Egypt and its influence in the eastern Mediterranean for a long period of time. So much so that these military. The military conqueror is not taught because he didn't have. Didn't live long enough. But his predecessors and those who followed him, like Ramses ii, that's kind of the legacy. And as we talked about last time, I think the Ptolemies, a thousand years later, when they take Egyptian throne names, they're all New Kingdom pharaoh's names. This is really. It's a thousand years earlier. It's the last time Egypt was an empire. The Ptolemies are controlling the eastern Mediterranean post Alexander the Great, and they're taking on these New Kingdom pharaonic royal names on purpose because that's how they see themselves within Egyptian history is we're just like the old pharaohs, but this is an empire. And the last time Egypt was an empire was this great new kingdom. And that's what we're trying to go for.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

So how culture works is. It's interesting in Egypt that not in a way, going back to Old kingdom religion, to kind of reinvent things. And the Ptolemies are going back a thousand years earlier to the new kingdom to kind of reinvent what it is to be a king in this world. That we're just like these New kingdom military conqueror kings. Okay. We're Macedonian. We're the sons of Alexander. Okay. We're outsiders. But no, we're not.

[Host]

Doesn't matter.

[Dr. Manning]

Doesn't matter because look. Look at our Egyptian throne names and how we're depicted in Egyptian temples a thousand years after this period.

[Host]

Yeah, I guess it does say something about, like, the human desire for nostalgia. Right. Like, it's something we see now in modern politics where, you know, people will echo, like, oh, like, you know, Reagan did this during his campaign. Right. Like, oh, like, let's bring it back to the America that we all once knew and loved.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I think this probably happens across the world. Dictatorships, republics, democracies, what have you, where there's always sort of a longing for what was and what we lost and the way we used to be. And it's interesting that even 2,500 years ago, this is the same exact thing that you have Egyptian kings being like, let's be like the kings back in the day. And that there is even a collective memory that people of that time would be like, oh, yeah, I do remember my grandma telling me something about the kings in her time. And that that would actually resonate or mean something so interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, the cultural memory is a really interesting phenomenon. And of course, the people with the cultural memory and the record are the priests in the temples. Cause they did keep location records.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

How did somebody inform Ptolemy the First or Alexander the Great about anything? Well, we have records. This is, you know, we're going to create these names for you because these are these. Somebody knew. Somebody had the knowledge that was transmitted from generation to generation. That's one of the important functions of. Of temples.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Is this transmission of knowledge.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

So. And these institutions, they work Egypt's as a pharaonic state from the Old Kingdom all the way to the Ptolemies. The Romans cared a lot less about it. The Ptolemies cared a good deal about how kingship works.

[Host]

Is that because they were trying to govern a foreign people.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, partly. Mainly even, how do you govern this very ancient land? With lots of traditions. Well, what are those traditions?

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

How do they work? All right, let's make an accommodation. We're the guys with the pointy sticks, your priesthoods. You're the guys with the culture and the tradition and the ceremony. And part of that ceremony is legitimizing kingship. You scratch my back, we'll scratch your back. That's the accommodation of priesthoods and temples and kings in Egypt. Which is why Akhenaten said, you know what? New tradition, new rules.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

Because he's trying to break that. The power. But over 3,000 years or so, it's pretty powerful thing. The Ptolemies. The other choice was to have a huge army to say, we're taking over everything. We don't give a. About how you guys work. That's more the Roman style.

[Host]

Right, exactly. It's like, hey, you're. You guys are Roman now. You know what I mean? Whatever you were before, it doesn't matter. Yeah, right. You're all Roman and get on with it.

[Dr. Manning]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

The Ptolemy, Alexander car was more sensitive to culture, but it's, it's a smart way to rule because it's, it's less expensive.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

So just let's. How does it work? What do you need? We're. We're the same, I guess, kind of.

[Host]

I wonder if that's like the difference between like, like an economic conquest versus an ideological conquest. Right? Like, if you are trying to bring these people into your empire because you believe that you are more cultured, more civilized, the correct faith, whatever that background, then you have to get on board. Because our goal is to win over like your soul in a way. Whereas if the goal is extraction of resources and trade routes and other type of economic means, and do whatever you want. Like, I don't really care who you worship or what you care about, as long as you guys give us the gold and the mines and all the stuff.

[Dr. Manning]

Well, yeah, yeah. It's not that different than a corporate takeover. I mean, imagine somebody taking over Apple Computer and just saying, you know what, that, that Apple icon. We're getting rid of all that. We're getting rid of all the corporate tradition. We're doing it our way now because we, we have the money, right? Would you do that?

[Host]

Or you.

[Dr. Manning]

It would say, no, Apple. It's good, kinda. We're owning it, but we want to keep the good part of this going and the brand. And.

[Host]

Well, if you were A true ideologue. Right. Like let's say you were like, like, like a proper like Marxist or something, you know, like private property is wrong, so we should like disband Apple. Like you can imagine if there was an ideologue that came into Apple, like it would fundamentally look different. Or if there was like someone who was ideologically like an ascetic Christian who was like, you know, dispossess all the things you own and change the apple to a cross or something, because Christ is ultimately what's most important. And you can see with the corporate metaphor, like, oh, yeah, that would change it. Whereas if you have an economic alignment, then it's like, yeah, just keep it going. Yeah, interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, Change, change rules. It's true in universities too, by the way. If the dean says new rules tomorrow, these things, guess what faculty are going to do? Like, no, no, no, no, we're going to resist all those new rules.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

So if you change rules anywhere, you're going to get resistance automatically. And what you want to do, if you're taking over places, let's keep mostly things in place. We're going to tweak a couple of things here to make it favorable for us. We might change the administrative language, we might add a little bit of a tax man over here, but let's keep going. What sort of works in that society?

[Host]

Yeah, top down, political shifts have to be done very, very cleverly to sort of different game.

[Dr. Manning]

Right.

[Host]

Yeah. Where if it's bottom up revolution, then it's like, you know, the people ultimately just want change. But if it's top down, you need to do the right type of change. Yeah, that's interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, it's hard.

[Host]

So with Tut, is there anything else that needs to get buttoned up on his story as far as like his fame? It makes sense, right? From a historical perspective, he has this sort of like Marna period that is significant. He has a sort of an inconsequential reign. So his tomb is quite small. He dies young and as a result it doesn't get rated as much. And from that we know much more about him.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. And we got lucky that the tomb is intact. Maybe just bottom line might be just luck because it looks like it was. There were, there were people in there. It looks like it was ransacked a little bit.

[Host]

Stuff broken up is an ancient ransacking. Is it possible, is it possible to tell what kind of ransacking happened?

[Dr. Manning]

Oh, good question. I don't know. The evidence. The evidence, if I remember things get, get smashed up And I think there's a, a hole in a wall or something. Now it could be 18th century robbery or something.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

They get caught. We know in the late 19th century there was a whole family. There's some interesting movies about this family in thebes in the 19th century who are making a ton of money by robbing tombs and Western thieves.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

And they knew a lot of the royal mummies were that had been reburied. This is royal mummy cash. And they had access to these things. They wouldn't, they wouldn't tell anyone where they were because this is family wealth for generations they were making. So it could be later. I can't remember if there's ancient evidence for it, in fact.

[Host]

Interesting. Yeah. I guess if you see like modern drills or things like that.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Post industrialized drills, you could kind of frame more or less where the break in happened.

[Dr. Manning]

I think so. And I can't remember how we know. Anyway. The tomb mostly survives with the tomb goods intact. And there's a romance, a boy king.

[Host]

I also think there's a romance with you, said Howard Carter.

[Dr. Manning]

Yes.

[Host]

I think that, that I think plays a massive role. And correct me if I'm wrong, but like in my mind I can remember his discovery. Right. It is sort of like you weren't.

[Dr. Manning]

Alive in 1923, were you? You look good, man.

[Host]

Yeah, I appreciate that.

[Dr. Manning]

Damn.

[Host]

But like I remember reading like Ripley's Believe it or not and it's like, oh, like we discovered this tomb, you know, and it's like, oh, wow. And I think that, I think the British crown probably promoted that a lot. Like, look at what we're doing in Egypt. And, you know, we're preserving Egyptian history. And I wonder if that story got kind of like propagandized a little to kind of like.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then also as a significant discovery in the modern age that I think also made it explode.

[Dr. Manning]

No, indeed.

[Host]

Were there other discoveries of that caliber in the 1900s.

[Dr. Manning]

In Egypt? There's a lot, a lot of things, but nothing like that. Nothing like that. The other thing, of course that's part of that story, which is a British newspaper story, is the curse of the tomb. And everyone, everyone dies. And Carter dies from a septic mosquito bite or an insect bite. He's dead. But everyone associated with the tomb. Now that's not totally true, but there were some mysterious deaths. Oh, it's this curse of this tomb that was all generated by London newspapers to sell newspapers.

[Host]

Oh, I love this.

[Dr. Manning]

That's the other part.

[Host]

Give me the curse of the tomb. I Like that you have to couch. This is how much Dr. Manon thinks I'm a psycho. He's like, this is not true, by the way. Curses are a hoax.

[Dr. Manning]

And Egyptians didn't curse tombs. Usually the opposite. That we have prayers in tombs. Hey, anyone who visits this doom. Please say a prayer for me and I'll bless you. Oh, that's. We have. Yeah, we have that sort of thing.

[Host]

I wonder if the robber.

[Dr. Manning]

Not if you break into this tomb, you will be cursed and your whole family will be dead within a week.

[Host]

Right?

[Dr. Manning]

Nah.

[Host]

Okay. Oh, we got a. I mean, it's on. You got a nice website. It seems true to me, the curse.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, look how. There he is.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

All right. Till 1922, he's in Thebes. He's going down. I mean, look at these pictures. So.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's well photographed.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

And it is beautiful. It is beautiful stuff.

[Host]

All right, hold on, let's. Shortly after unearthing King Tut. How do you pronounce his name? Carnavrin.

[Dr. Manning]

Lord Carnarvon.

[Host]

Carnarvon. He was found dead. Mosquito bite in his face that had become infected, leading to blood poisoning. Not the only death, Right. His half brother also died from blood poisoning. Sir Archibald Douglas Reed died from a mysterious illness. George Jay Gould died from fever following his visit, among many others. Objects from the tomb were given as gifts to Carter's friend, Sir Bruce Ingram, whose house burned down not long after. After being rebuilt, the house then flooded. I mean, that's. It's pretty spooky.

[Dr. Manning]

Sounds like a curse to me.

[Host]

That sounds like a curse, dude. Right?

[Dr. Manning]

Well, I mean, there are plenty of other people, including James Henry Breasted, the founder of American Etology at Chicago, who was part of this.

[Host]

And what happened to him?

[Dr. Manning]

He lived till 1935.

[Host]

He did a deal with the pharaoh.

[Dr. Manning]

So he probably. Yeah, he probably knew some magic spell.

[Host]

That's what I'm saying. It sounds very Faustian. All right. I think he cut a deal and said, hey, sell out these guys, flood this dude's house. And also, I'll be honest, this just sounds like Amon Ra getting his get back. You know what I mean? Like that. That sounds like. That sounds like justice. It's like, okay, you're going to come over here and take all of our stuff, put it in a British museum. How about we get some mosquitoes on your ass?

[Dr. Manning]

Or did you know what I mean? It's still in Egypt.

[Host]

Oh, that one is.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. Taught, still, touched, still in Egypt, by and large.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Manning]

Some things Went missing, which, you know, Carter may have slipped a few things in his back pocket.

[Host]

I would just love to know. I mean, I truly. If there's any, like, oligarch or, like, some wealthy, I don't know, Emirati prince or something that has, like, a statue or just, like, some type of. Some type of artifact, I would just love to see it. And I won't tell anyone, and I won't. I won't. I won't flag UNESCO or whoever goes looks into this stuff.

[Dr. Manning]

Okay?

[Host]

I just want to see. I mean, would you not want to see? Like, have you ever seen an item outside of a private collection that technically they shouldn't have? You don't have to say who or what.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. Have I seen stolen art in private. A private collection, Right. Yes.

[Host]

What'd you see? And you don't have to say specifics. If you don't. If you're. If you don't.

[Dr. Manning]

Various sculpture, for example, stuff that was. Is rifled. I mean, antiquities. The antiquities market's pretty shady. Until recently, right?

[Host]

I mean, I remember hearing stories and, like, you know, I like the story of this family in Thebes or, like, you know, early 1900s. You'd have people just kind of on, like, the side of the road, just, like, hawk and wares that, like, were either fraudulent or that they got from a place nearby or whatever.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, yeah. And, of course, the antiquities laws weren't around until. Not that. Not so long ago. So a lot of stuff was legitimately. We would say it's illegitimately taken from Egypt by tourism or by dealers selling stuff. It wasn't technically illegal, right? Now. Now, looking back, we say, well, you know, that was probably bad. And now, of course, there's nationalism pretty fierce involved that in Egypt and elsewhere, that this is part of the national tradition. Everything from ancient Egypt shall go back to Egypt, right? And now we get into these debates about who owns antiquity and all these things currently, right?

[Host]

Is it illegal if I find a shirt on the side of the road to sell it on ebay? Everyone be like, no, not at all.

[Dr. Manning]

But if you were in Egypt and picked up something and then left the country with it and sold it, that would be illegal, right? Don't do that.

[Host]

I will never. No, no, no. I mean, a sick.

[Dr. Manning]

You'll get caught at the airport, then I would really worry about you. Like, whatever happened to Mark?

[Host]

No, I'm calling you. You're my first call. Like, you know these guys, right? You went out to Marna. Get me out of here.

[Dr. Manning]

Exactly.

[Host]

But I. But it's an interesting thing where, like, just time creates the crime, you know?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, exactly. That's a good way to put it.

[Host]

If you find a shirt that's a vintage shirt from the 80s, like, everyone would be like, yeah, you can sell that. You found it. But if you find, you know, an old sword that's in a tomb somewhere, it's like, well, that's. And we know. It obviously is. There's a difference. But I wonder if, you know, prior to antiquities law, I was like, yeah, you know, if you find some old shit, you can just sell it if you want.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. There was no one thought about that back 100 years ago, right? There was. It didn't exist. It was. I was in Egypt. I got. I bought this stuff. It's. Of course it's.

[Host]

I wonder if in places like this, where there's so much ancient history, if prior to, you know, the 20th century, people just didn't see it as valuable. I mean, maybe this is. Maybe I'm being blasphemous here, but I just wonder, like, if you're living in a place where it's like, yeah, everything's old. I live 20 blocks from the most magnificent, wonderful the world. You know what I mean? These pyramids of Giza. Like, I'm finding stuff. My kid was in the backyard and found, like, a little piece of, like, of a gold flank of something, and we put in a jar and. Yeah, you just find old stuff because we're living in the breadbasket of human civilization.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, that.

[Host]

I wonder if the prevailing idea is just like, yeah, this is just stuff that was here.

[Dr. Manning]

Well, this is how Egyptians make money. And I think it's technically. Correct me if I'm wrong, somebody out there, but I think it's technically not illegal to buy stuff in Egypt. It's illegal to export it.

[Host]

Ah.

[Dr. Manning]

So you can buy and sell stuff in these all you want.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

You just can't. You can't export it, though.

[Host]

Right. Which is kind of. I mean, it's an interesting lot. It kind of makes sense. It's like, hey, this is of our people, for our people, you know, I mean, your descendants had a role in, you know, these funerary reliefs.

[Dr. Manning]

It's part of identity, national identity, but it's also for archaeologists. They want to know provenance. They want to know what's the context of where did this come from.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

And if you. The. The art market gets rid of the archaeology.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

There's no provenance. There's no careful excavation recording exact location of something.

[Host]

Right. The condition that it Was in.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. No. Then the entire archaeological context is gone and it can't be recovered very often. And so we've lost. We've lost a lot of important information because even of the earlier antiquities markets.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Dr. Manning]

It's just. It's just nothing to do about it. But that's why it's so protected now for national identity and property reasons. But also, if there's a market, it creates a market which creates people looting because you can get money from the looting and sell it to a dealer. So it leads to more looting.

[Host]

Right. Cocaine, ivory, like all of these black markets function the same way. Right. Like it's a market, there's a consumption, there's going to be more creation as it creates more consumption, it creates a flywheel. Right. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's such an interesting little, like just a. Just an interesting part of the world where there's so much history.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it's so tangible to the people.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's just.

[Dr. Manning]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Just remarkable. So on.

[Dr. Manning]

Go to Egypt, even if you've not been to Egypt. Yeah, it's. It's an amazing. The people are amazing. It's an amazing place, visually. Extremely kind, generous people, by and large. It's a wonderful mix of cultures now.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Manning]

You know, Islam for sure. Christianity, a minority, but a very interesting Christian tradition.

[Host]

Yeah. I think Christians.

[Dr. Manning]

The Coptic Christianity is really interesting.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Manning]

It's an interesting language because it's an ancient Egyptian language, so it preserves.

[Host]

Oh, that was a question I was going to ask you when it comes to these harems.

[Dr. Manning]

Ah, yeah.

[Host]

What happens if you marry, like, a Hittite princess and you guys don't speak the same language?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Does that happen?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah, I think they're not speaking. I think they're not actually having conversations.

[Host]

I mean, that sounds nice. Kind of an ideal marriage, to be honest.

[Dr. Manning]

They're not, you know, how was your day?

[Host]

But like, like, what is the. The nature of the harem? Is it like, okay, I got a third wife in order to have more heirs, which is what I need, because women can only have one kid in like a, you know, a year and a half window.

[Dr. Manning]

It's even more fundamental than that. It's even sort of human biology in a sense, that this really also related to empire, that military conquest is about getting women. There is an argument about that, that this is driving ancient empires. It is partly not only conquest of land, but conquest of other peoples, including women.

[Host]

To introduce new women into a society or just for the generals.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Have more sexual Exploits.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Manning]

Kind of. Yeah. So I'm not sure it's a strategy as much as it is. Hey, I. I'm the. I'm the conqueror. So with that I get stuff.

[Host]

Dudes are so dumb.

[Dr. Manning]

Well, right. Like, again, that's another show. But.

[Host]

I know, but it's just like. Like, for example, if. If Bush came on TV and was like, we're going into Iraq for women. Like, I think I could almost grab my head around that more because I'd be like, dude, I like women. You know what I mean? Like, I get it. Like, the whole oil thing, you're just like, oh, my God. Like, it's just like, you're going there for oil. Like, this is. You're going there for regime change.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Back in the day, they used to do war the right way. You know what I mean? They're like, hey, we just want ladies.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah. You know, we're going after women. The men end up with, you know, hands cut off and. Yeah. Piled up in front of the gu. God. But this is. This is the nature of ancient states. I mean, it is. It is brutal.

[Host]

It is so archaic. Like, it's just like, truly monkey brain.

[Dr. Manning]

It is. It is brutal. And as against. Oh, look at Tut's gold mask. The art is so beautiful then. And these temples are glorious. There's this romantic image of Egypt and other places in antiquity. The real world, though, is not a place I don't think you'd want to time travel back into and live right along. It's. It is a brutal world, by and large, and the soldiers are the lucky ones. You could be a farmer and just, you know, exploited. Yeah, usually. And living year to year and with famine at your door kind of a lot. At least the threat of it. And plague and. Yeah. And disease and in a world, the whole premodern world. Life expectancy. Did we talk about that? Life expectancy at birth in the ancient world. Something like 25 years.

[Host]

Is that the average?

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay, so there's a lot of child.

[Dr. Manning]

Mortality, I imagine huge child mortality. If you make it to two, you might live longer than. Than that. But this is the sort of average life expectancy at birth, you know, so there's no. There's no medicine. There's, you know, it's. Would you want. Would you want to be an illiterate farmer, which is 95 of the population of ancient Egypt, you know? No. Of course, everyone who's reincarnated thinks they're going to be King Tut or Ramses, not a farmer.

[Host]

Yeah. Of course.

[Dr. Manning]

Somewhere.

[Host]

But it sounds like even from you, you're like, you don't even want to be King Tut.

[Dr. Manning]

No. You know, I would not want to be a ruler. I think a mid level priest, that's probably out of the way, you know, reading some books, weekends off.

[Host]

It's basically what you do now.

[Dr. Manning]

Good access to coffee. It's pretty much the. Pretty much the professor.

[Host]

You're like, I read some books.

[Dr. Manning]

I'm doing what I'm born to do. Yeah.

[Host]

Drinking coffee.

[Dr. Manning]

Yeah.

[Host]

Dude, you're the high priest of academia. I Love this. Well, Dr. Manny, this is wonderful. Thank you so much for. For chatting me about King Tut and pleasure. Yeah, this is great. And let's do another episode on King Ramses.

[Dr. Manning]

I'm ready.

[Host]

Let's do it.

[Dr. Manning]

Okay.

[Host]

If you've made it to the end of this episode, you are clearly someone who understands that beneath every historical event lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered. You're the type of person who knows that real history is more fascinating than any fiction. And we deeply appreciate that about you. I'll be honest, that's exactly why I personally invite you to sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter that goes beyond the surface of historical events. We dive into the stories that textbooks never told you, the secrets that challenge the course of nations, and the forgotten tales that deserve to be remembered. Let's continue this journey of discovery together. Take the conversation from your headphones into your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History. Because every day holds a secret waiting to be revealed. Thank you for being part of our historical journey. We'll see you next time.