Launching Herbal Esctasy in the United States...with the CIA?!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Camp Gagnon - "Launching Herbal Ecstasy in the United States...with the CIA?!"

Introduction

In this riveting episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves deep into the unconventional journey of Shaheen Cheyenne—a trailblazing entrepreneur who legally built a billion-dollar herbal supplement empire. The conversation traverses Shaheen's early life, entrepreneurial ventures, challenges with government regulations, and his philosophical insights on wealth and success.

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Early Life and Inspirations

Shaheen Cheyenne shares his humble beginnings as an Iranian immigrant in Los Angeles during the 1990s. Growing up in a financially strained household, he was surrounded by affluent peers, sparking his ambition to attain a life of wealth and success.

[03:24] Shaheen: "I want that guy's fucking life. How do I get that?"

His dissatisfaction with traditional paths encouraged him to seek alternative routes to prosperity, leading him to immerse himself in the burgeoning rave scene of Southern California.

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Mentorship and the Seed of Entrepreneurship

At the age of 15, Shaheen encountered Edward Lawson—an influential black activist and mentor known as the "California Walkman." Lawson's profound insights and relentless activism profoundly impacted Shaheen, instilling in him the drive to "put a dent in the universe."

[09:18] Shaheen: "Spending a good period of time with him allowed me to see the world in a different way."

Under Lawson's guidance, Shaheen delved deeper into self-education, reading seminal works like "Think and Grow Rich," which further fueled his entrepreneurial spirit.

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Creating Herbal Ecstasy: From Concept to Market

Recognizing the dwindling supply and compromised quality of traditional Ecstasy (referred to as "E"), Shaheen conceived the idea of a legal, herbal alternative. Despite lacking formal education and resources, he leveraged his determination to develop a unique formula comprising ephedra, guarana, ginseng, and kola nut.

[18:13] Shaheen: "It was almost like taking E. Some people had a better experience than E."

His first pivotal interaction occurred at a rave where a tough-looking distributor demanded his product. Overcoming fear, Shaheen successfully sold his herbal ecstasy, marking the inception of his legal empire.

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Scaling the Empire: Success and Challenges

Shaheen's venture rapidly expanded, securing wholesale distribution across major cities and integrating into mainstream retail channels such as Urban Outfitters, GNC, and even sex shops. His products gained immense popularity, especially among performers like the Beastie Boys and Red Hot Chili Peppers at events like Lollapalooza.

[33:15] Shaheen: "We sold in record stores, sex shops, doctors' offices... We were everywhere."

Despite soaring revenues—reportedly exceeding a billion dollars—Shaheen grappled with operational challenges, including cash management and internal theft, leading to a chaotic yet profitable business environment.

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Confronting Government Regulations and Legal Hurdles

As Shaheen's business flourished, major pharmaceutical companies viewed his herbal ecstasy as a significant threat. In response, they lobbied the government to impose stringent regulations, eventually leading to the banning of key ingredients like ephedra.

[29:56] Shaheen: "Big pharma companies went to the government and lobbied to have us taken out."

The relentless pressure from regulatory bodies, coupled with internal mismanagement, compelled Shaheen to dismantle his empire around the age of 20-21, culminating in the cessation of his herbal ecstasy operations.

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Transition to E-Commerce and Continued Entrepreneurship

Post-herbal ecstasy, Shaheen pivoted to e-commerce, capitalizing on platforms like Amazon. His venture into selling brain supplements on Amazon yielded astonishing overnight success, exemplifying his knack for identifying and leveraging market opportunities.

[120:20] Shaheen: "I made 200 grand in a very short period of time. There's something to this."

He emphasizes the importance of reducing friction in sales processes—a principle he credits to Jeff Bezos's innovation of the "one-click" purchase system.

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Philosophical Insights: Wealth, Luck, and Purpose

Throughout the episode, Shaheen shares his evolved perspective on wealth and success. He distinguishes between making money and maintaining it, advocating for diversified revenue streams to ensure financial stability. Additionally, he reflects on the concept of luck, advocating for creating environments that foster opportunities rather than relying solely on chance.

[127:41] Shaheen: "Making money and keeping it... you have to have multiple forms of revenue."

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Personal Reflections and Legacy

Shaheen candidly discusses the personal toll of his early entrepreneurial pursuits, including strained familial relationships and the relentless scrutiny from media and authorities. Despite these challenges, he finds profound fulfillment in fatherhood, viewing it as the pinnacle of human experience and the ultimate legacy.

[129:35] Shaheen: "There’s no way to understand or realize that until you do it... there's nothing higher than that."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Camp Gagnon offers an unfiltered glimpse into Shaheen Cheyenne's audacious journey from a homeless teenager to the head of a billion-dollar herbal ecstasy empire. His story underscores the complexities of rapid entrepreneurial success, the interplay between innovation and regulation, and the enduring quest for meaningful legacy beyond material wealth.

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Notable Quotes

• [03:24] Shaheen: "I want that guy's fucking life. How do I get that?"
• [09:18] Shaheen: "Spending a good period of time with him allowed me to see the world in a different way."
• [18:13] Shaheen: "It was almost like taking E. Some people had a better experience than E."
• [33:15] Shaheen: "We sold in record stores, sex shops, doctors' offices... We were everywhere."
• [29:56] Shaheen: "Big pharma companies went to the government and lobbied to have us taken out."
• [120:20] Shaheen: "I made 200 grand in a very short period of time. There's something to this."
• [127:41] Shaheen: "Making money and keeping it... you have to have multiple forms of revenue."
• [129:35] Shaheen: "There’s no way to understand or realize that until you do it... there's nothing higher than that."

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Resources and Further Information

• Book: Billionaires: How I Became King of the Thrill Pill Cult by Shaheen Cheyenne
• Website: shaheenshan.com
• Email: [e-mail] (for inquiries and mentorship)
• Upcoming Movie: Adaptation of Shaheen's book, featuring Paris Hilton's company 11:10

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Note: This summary excludes recorded advertisements and non-content sections of the podcast, focusing solely on the substantive discussions between Mark Gagnon and Shaheen Cheyenne.

Transcript

[A]

At Lollapalooza, we did over $1 million per show in cash. I had to buy vans to carry the cash back to LA from every tour stop because I didn't know what the fuck to do.

[B]

This is Shaheen Cheyenne. And he built a billion dollar drug empire legally. That's right. He has an absolutely fascinating story. He's going to take us through the entire process. How he grew up in Iran, eventually moving to America, getting involved in the rave scene in Southern California, and how he eventually developed a product to replace E, how he took it to market, made over a billion dollars and ultimately how it all came crumbling down.

[A]

They're not expecting some snot nosed teenager making hundreds of millions of dollars, completely unregulated, taking away their market share, fights.

[B]

With the government, being backstabbed by his closest friends and partners, and everything he learned along the way. So if you're interested in his philosophy on wealth, entrepreneurship and how you too could maybe even build a, I don't know, billion dollar. If you're interested, this is the episode for you. Welcome to camp Shaheen. Thank you so much, brother. I really appreciate you being here, man. I, I've been looking through a couple of your interviews and I've done a little bit of research on your background and, and this wild web of a world that, that you've created for yourself. So I'm curious, are you a drug dealer or a cult leader? Neither. Or kind of both.

[A]

Well, I love the way that sounds these days. I'm much more boring than that. I'm a businessman, an entrepreneur. I start companies and eventually get them to the point of where I sell them. But the story that you're thinking of is from the 90s and in the 90s, as a teenager I invented a magic pill and ended up selling over a billion dollars. We did over a billion dollars in revenue and it was one of the largest supplements in history. Created an entire movement behind it, hence the name cult or my book. Billy and I Became King of the Thrill Pill Cult, which is going to be made into a movie soon.

[B]

Oh wow.

[A]

Yeah, I'm super excited about it. Paris Hilton's company 11:10 is back in it. So it's going to be a super film. And the book is out too. But basically the story is that I was 15, in kind of a tough situation, left home and trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I got involved in the rave scene.

[B]

Living in Los angeles in the 90s. Yeah, okay.

[A]

Living in LA in the 90s. We moved here, was Iranian immigrants, we moved to the United States, via Germany, of course. And were looking for a place to be. And LA seemed to be the place. And so we moved to LA and things were great until I hit 13 and we were poor. I realized that we were poor at some stage, but it was okay. But I grew up in an area that was up and coming and I was around a lot of rich kids. So I started to think to myself, man, look at that guy. He's got a Ferrari and he's driving down PCH with this super hot blonde. Like, I want that fucking life, right? I can't curse on your show.

[B]

You have to curse.

[A]

I have to curse?

[B]

Yeah. You required five more F bombs.

[A]

Five more F bombs. So I was like, I want that guy's fucking life. How do I get that? Of course I go to my parents and I say, hey, mom, dad, you know, school's great, but I want that. And they look at me and they go, we don't know, you know, just be a doctor, you know, go talk to Mr. Tehrani across the street. He's a doctor, he's going to be great.

[B]

Don't be stupid.

[A]

Don't be stupid. So I go talk to this dude and I walk over there and I'm so excited. I'm like, all right, this is a. He's gonna give me the fucking keys to the castle. I'm gonna learn how to do this shit. I'm gonna be a doctor. It's gonna be awesome. And I go over to the dude's house and he's standing outside smoking a cigarette. The wife smoking a cigarette. The three kids are smoking a cigarette. They're all bald and fucking fat and like stressed out. And he's looking at me, his eyes are bloodshot like he hasn't slept. And I just took one look at this fucking dude and I was like, oh, no. Oh no. Like, I get that he's got a house and a Mercedes, but that's not the fucking life that I want. So I went back and I was like, fuck, man, I gotta figure out a way to do this. My parents were like, there's no other way. This is it.

[B]

Yeah. You're in America, you get a job as a lawyer or doctor, and then your dreams come true.

[A]

Your dreams come true. Right?

[B]

Now your parents, your mother was secretary in Iran, pre revolution. Your father was an accountant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When they come to America, are they able to pick up semi professional jobs or they do something completely different?

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Third class citizens because you move to Los Angeles and of course you have a Black community, you've got a Hispanic community. And then you got these people moving in the 70s who those people were pissed off at being treated poorly. Now we come in and we're not only treated poorly by the local people. And remember, this was during Iran Contra. We were the bottom of the barrel.

[B]

At the axis of evil.

[A]

We were the axis of evil back then. And then you had the hostage crisis, you had all that stuff. And here we are, I'm like this kid from Iran, I barely spoke English and basically got my ass kicked every day. And so I had to figure out a way. And I was like, you know what? The only way I'm gonna do this is if I bail. Because if I stay here, I'm gonna get a pager and have to gel my hair back and name myself Feread like every other frickin Persian in town. So I just, I couldn't do it, man.

[B]

Did you have siblings?

[A]

I did. I had a small brother. Yeah, I had a little brother.

[B]

Okay, so you're the oldest. So you're figuring this out without any real.

[A]

No, no. Yeah. My father was always a good provider for the family. We never wanted for anything. But I had secondhand clothing. He worked at a dry cleaners. So the clothes we would wear would basically be last year's clothes that people left behind at the dry cleaner and didn't pay their bill. So it would either be one size too big or one size too small. Never ate at restaurants, that kind of thing.

[B]

And he did his duty as a father. He got you out of this bad situation in Iran. He brings you to a land of opportun. Now go be a doctor.

[A]

Now go be a doctor.

[B]

Like that. It's very simple in his mind, so I can see his perspective. He's like, I took the sacrifice.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And I gave you a better opportunity.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But you wanted more.

[A]

Yeah, look, that works if you want to survive and follow the status quo, if you want to thrive and as Steve Jobs would say, put a dent in the universe, you got to do some shit different. You got to do something fucking different. And I didn't know much, but I had read some books. I'd read Think and grow rich. I had read these books because after getting my ass kicked and being in detention for doing all kinds of bad at school, I was like, you know what? I gotta figure some out. So I read those books and I was like, I don't really know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm out. So I cut all ties. And I left. I just bailed and I slept on the beach. I hung out, you know, different raves and clubs and kind of tried to figure out my way. It was all good until I met my first mentor.

[B]

And do you tell your parents, hey, I'm done. I'm out of school. Like, I'm dropping out.

[A]

I just kind of bailed. I just left.

[B]

I think, stop talking to them. Like, how does that situation dissolve?

[A]

So clearly you did not have Persian parents. You clearly did not have immigrant parents, my friend. So it's my way or the highway, right? And they're very strict about what their expectations are about their kids. And so there's no room for discussion. So I just disappeared. I just left. And I didn't have space to deal with their emotionality. Remember, I was only 15. I only had my driver's permit. I didn't have my driver's license. And I just took off because I needed to figure out what my next step was. For a lot of kids, it could be disastrous. And now I'm like, looking back at it and I'm like, fuck, man. There were so many times where I near died. There were so many times where I went left. And if all I had done is gone right, I would have been been done. But things worked out, and I met this mentor. He was an incredible person. I write about him in my book. He was one of the most important people in what we would say is some form of civil rights. He was a black guy who had defied the police early on, and there was a Supreme Court case based on him because he sued the police by himself and won multiple times and made it a point to go out there and to continually get arrested and continually sue these police forces until he near drove them bankrupt. And he was on Oprah. He was on all these channels. He was called the California Walkman. His name was Edward Lawson. Incredible character in history. If anybody ever wants to watch his videos, they're online. But Ed kind of took me under his wing and became like a second father to me.

[B]

How do you meet him?

[A]

I met him at Santa Monica College, believe it or not. So I would be sleeping on my car, sleeping in the beach, sleeping in the odd place. And then I would go to the college because they would have free food and I'd also be able to shower in the showers. And there was also a bunch of super hot college girls walking around that I could just dream about.

[B]

So.

[A]

And I thought, you know, I just meet people and try to figure out what my next move Was, wow. And that's what I did. Yeah. And it was, you know, it was scary being 15 and he was, I think in his, in his 40s and a very large, like intense presence of a human being. He was probably to this day, I'm going to say the single most intelligent person I've ever met. His story was extraordinary. Grew up in a single parent family, his mom raised him and in the 1960s he took off and he was part of the Berkeley scene and just living a normal life until he tried LSD and he tried LSD and he was transformed somehow from just normal life to this person who spoke with such eloquence that if we were in a room with this guy, every single person would turn and give him attention. So he was a really impactful figure in my life and I think spending a good period of time with him allowed me to see the world in a different way. And it changed who I was in such a fundamental way that I could never be the same again. And it was exactly what I needed in that moment.

[B]

And what did he want to do with you, a 15 year old homeless immigrant kid? What did he see in you in that moment that was like, I'm going to give this kid the time of day?

[A]

It's a good question. I talk about this a lot, Mark. I think when you're hungry, people can smell it. And I was hungry in a lot of ways, right? I was hungry both physically because, you know, I didn't have much money, but I would eat wherever I get food. That was never a problem. There's tons of free food everywhere. So back then, I mean, I don't, I don't know. When people say they're hungry, I was like, man, there's free food everywhere. Very easy, at least for me to get. But I had a hunger to succeed. And that hunger, people could smell it on me. I would walk somewhere and I wouldn't let somebody go until they gave me the information that I needed. And he, I think noticed that about me, that when I met him I was like, who the fuck is this guy? Like he stepped into a room and I was like, I'd never seen a human being like this, like dreadlocks, you know, he was about 6, 2, 6 3, like huge presence. And I just like ambushed him and started asking him questions about like everything. And he obliged. And it was almost like an apprenticeship for a period of time where he kind of took me under his wing. And he was like, look dude, this is the world as everybody sees it. This is the World as I see it. And you can take your pick or you can pick the third door, which is the world as you're going to see it. Right. But once I show you, you can never go back. And I was like, fuck, yeah, let's do that. Because I've seen what's on the other doors. It's not so good.

[B]

And so what does your experience with him turn into?

[A]

So I get involved in the rave scene more and more. I start going to underground clubs, edm, electronic music.

[B]

He's going to raves as well. He's the one that ushers you in.

[A]

He did a lot of raves back in the early, early days, but he wasn't going to raves in that moment. Like, occasionally he would show up at 1 or 2. He was also a dancer, but he didn't. No. So he wasn't going to the race. But he kind of introduced me to the right people and showed me, hey, this is how you can operate within the scene. He goes, just go watch. Just go see what's happening. And you're going to figure it out. I know you're going to figure out what you're going to do. And I didn't have any money, so I was like, cool. I don't have a better plan. And people would show up that might have known him, and he transformed them too. Like, I would see them and we would get along and I'd partner up for a little while with these folks and we, we had a little group. And I remember watching these underground clubs, these raves, and thinking to myself, all right, dude, so who's making money here? Because I want to make money, I want to get rich. I'm not doing this just for fun, right? And I didn't do drugs, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, none of that stuff.

[B]

Did you enjoy the raves on a personal level? Like, was it fun?

[A]

No, it was absolutely not fun. Because, look, it's fun if mommy and daddy are at home, they got your trust fund secured, you got all three meals squared away. But when you are sleeping where you can eatin, you know, where you can get it and kind of nobody knows that about you. It puts a different, you know, kind of tint on things. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's fun to, you know, go somewhere where there's music or whatever. But also, I think you probably needed to have some level of drugs to enjoy those parties at that time, and I had none. I just wanted to fucking make money. Like I was on a single track. I Didn't know how I was going to do it, but I was like, I'm fucking going to get rich, right? How? I don't know how. So I went to the clubs and I started looking around after a while. I was like, okay, who's making the money? I was like, the guys that are doing the clubs always sneak out the back door. It's because they don't want to pay anybody, because they're not making any money. They're broke. They're probably doing half the drugs themselves. The DJs back then playing other people's music, really, and they were never getting paid. But there was always these dudes hanging around. And the dudes hanging around had beautiful women with them. They had nice cars. They always kind of subsidized these events. I was like, who the fuck are these guys? You have any idea who they were?

[B]

Drug dealers.

[A]

They were the drug dealers. So I was like, perfect, man. That's what I'm gonna fucking do. And I looked back to my time in elementary school where I had a little bit of a gang and we sold everything from glue to those little bottles of liquor. I had a little Greek kid who was my best friend, and he was so cute that nobody would ever suspect him of anything. He had this big fucking jacket that he would wear. And we would go into the liquor store and he would start putting the alcohol. The nudie magazines, when that was a thing back in the 80s. And we would go to school and we would sell them. We would sell pages out in the nudity magazines. We would sell whatever we could, but we would always fucking get caught. And I remember in the moment where I had that realization that, like, I was really fucking bad at crime. I was like, those two, you know, you see in the cartoons, the two little, like, things that are on the shoulder. Angel and the devil, right? And I was like, dude, don't fucking do crime. Like, do whatever you want to. Don't do crime. That does not end well for you. Some guys maybe can get away with it. You cannot, my friend. Do not do crime. Shaheen. So it occurred to me in that moment, shaheen, what if you could do it, but do it legally? And the biggest drug at that time was E, which was huge. It was legal in the 80s and then made illegal later. I think we can't mention its real name because we don't want to get demonetized. So I won't mention it, as I said, but we'll just call it either. And I thought to myself, wow, you know, the supply of E had dried out, so there was very little real E available in the clubs.

[B]

A lot of it was cut with shit or put into like press pills or something like that. And it would be a little dangerous, potentially, or just an unclean high.

[A]

Exactly right. Exactly right. And the. The drug dealers basically stopped selling it because they don't want to lose customers, and the customers didn't really want much else. There was other things going around, but none of it was as good. He was actually, at that time, you know, really, you know, pretty amazing substance. And I thought to myself, what if I could replicate that? Now, mind you, I'm 15, I'm broke, didn't have a girlfriend, didn't have anywhere to go, didn't have anywhere to sleep, didn't have any money, didn't have any resources, didn't have a business degree. And I dropped out of whatever, eighth or ninth grade. Like I had nothing. But somehow I convinced myself that I could fucking do it. And I did. I got myself a girlfriend. Somehow, I don't know, she was out of her mind. And her dad was like some fucking superintendent accountant, something of some school district. So he would leave early in the morning. When he left through the front door, she would let me in through the back door, just like the cartoons. And we would cook it up in our kitchen, and I would just be cooking up different formulas. I went to Chinatown, I talked to everybody into fronting me stuff. I was just like. Like I said, they would smell the hunger on me. And I finally made a formula. I remember I didn't have the machine to make capsules because that machine at that time cost like 150 bucks. And I didn't have it. So we would be rolling it by hand into little balls so it would be close to close to capsules, close looking to capsules. And we would try it out on all the young people in the neighborhood. And finally we got one formula that really fucking worked great.

[B]

And what is it?

[A]

So in those days, it was a combination of an ingredient called ephedra, which was very effective, and guarana, which was caffeine. It had other ingredients like ginseng, kola nut. There was a series of herbs that after a lot of trial and error, I found the perfect balance. So it wasn't too speedy, it wasn't too caffeine. Y.

[B]

It wasn't.

[A]

It was like just the perfect feeling when somebody took it. It almost felt close to taking E. Some people had a better experience than. Than. Than e, right? So we came up with this formula. It worked. And I Was like, all right, this is it. Sink or fucking swim. Let's go. So I found this rave that I knew that there would be a guy there, a very tough, very dangerous looking dude. You know, this was. This was. Remember the early 90s, right? And this dude had tattoos on his face, which wasn't normal back then. Right now it's like, I don't know.

[B]

Normalized. Yeah, but still, you're like, I guess.

[A]

I think my kid's kindergarten teacher has tattoos on her face now, right?

[B]

LA School District.

[A]

LA School District. I'm just kidding, by the way, if she's listening to this. But back then, nobody had any. This guy had it. He was a tough dude. And so I walked up to him and I was shaking, sweating bullets on the side of the dance floor. And the guy looks at me and he's like, you know, what the fuck you want, kid? And I'm like. He's like, I'm out. I don't have anything. And I was like. I was just trying to get the words, just trying to get the words out of my mouth. And just then these two girls walk up and they want product. And guess what? Dude doesn't have any. And he's looking at me. He's looking at me. He motions to his bodyguard, you know, to like, bring me over. I come over and he's like, all right, let me see. Grabs the backpack, pulls out a baggie Rain. This is Goofy Pills. And in that moment, I thought to myself, I am so fucked. Like, I was like, I'm going to, like, clean his car. I'm going to, like, fix his tires. I'll do anything if this guy doesn't fucking kill me. Like, anything. Like, I was like, I am fucking dead. And I see him thinking about it. I see him talking to these girls, like, you know, really trying to negotiate. And then he's like, all right. He's like, if you're with me, he's like, you're done, right? He's like, don't leave, right? And he tells us, dude, like, don't let him leave. So now I'm like, all right, I'm gonna be sweating all night. And so an hour goes by and I'm just, like, looking. And finally they come back and they're, like, ecstatic. And he had sold it to a few other people, and they're ecstatic. And he motions me forward and I don't know if I'm gonna be killed or not. And he goes, kid, when can you get me more? He had sold them all. And that Was the beginning.

[B]

Did he try it?

[A]

I think he did, yeah.

[B]

Wow. And did he ask you what it was?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And you told him, like, oh, it's a knockoff E. I said, it's just herbs.

[A]

You know, I said, it's just herbs. I think that was enough explanation that he needed to know. I said, it's nothing you can get in trouble for, I promise. I mean, he was a pretty heavy dude as far as, like, his presence, so I think not a lot of people fucked with him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think he kind of realized that, yeah, it's just herbs. And, you know, I mean, I had a package pretty cool. They were little baggies, and I had these little insert cards with a butterfly and an e in there, so it looked kind of like underground, but it still had a little bit of legitimacy in those days. I didn't list any of the ingredients because I didn't want anyone to rip me off.

[B]

And everything that was in it was a natural herb.

[A]

Mm. Herbs and vitamins. Yeah.

[B]

And did you go that route for the legal reasons, or did you go that route because it was the easiest thing to obtain? Like, what was the reason that you were like, I want herbs. Like, why not just do a complete knockoff of E? Was it just legally?

[A]

Well, that would be illegal, and I had no chemistry experience at all. So herbs are fairly simple to formulate. I did pick up a yellow pages, if anyone remembers what those are. And I started calling people who were experts. And for a good part of a couple weeks, I would just call people, and if they hung up on me or didn't want to talk to me, I'd show up, and I'd knock on the door and knock, knock, knock. Hi, sir. I don't want to sell you anything. Just need your help. And people would help me.

[B]

And what was the pitch? What were you asking them?

[A]

I say, I want to make this pill that does this thing. I want you to help me. So, for example, I called a famous naturopath, this guy Andrew Whale. I don't know if you know who he is. He wrote a book called, I think, Marriage of the sun and the moon. But he wrote the textbooks on drugs for all the school districts in America. And I got a hold of one of these textbooks, and these were the textbooks that they gave everybody in the schools to show them, you know, this is what is. This is what. I'm sorry. I shouldn't be mentioning drugs. You can bleep it out, but this is what this drug is. This is what that drug is. This is what this drug is. So that's what that textbook was. So I just found his information in the yellow pages and I just called him until he was willing to help me. And finally he was like, dude, I get it. Here's what you could do. And he helped me. And other people helped me, too, because they were like, this kid's hungry. I mean, how many phone calls do you think people get like that, right? They were like, he's not going to stop until I help him.

[B]

Almost never.

[A]

Almost never.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they were very kind, and people were very generous to me. And, you know, some people told me to fuck off, but that just fueled the fire to keep this thing going.

[B]

So this main active ingredient. What is the name again?

[A]

Ephedra. Ephedra, yeah. And it's now banned.

[B]

Someone told you about it?

[A]

Yeah. Well, so I grew up in an herbal family, right? So I came from Iran, and a lot of my family in the past were herbalists or doctors or medicine people. And in that time, I did have a good exposure to a lot of herbs. And before that time, when I was training martial arts in between 12 and 15 years old, I did go to Chinatown. I did grab a lot of herbs. So I did have a cursory knowledge of herbs and how they work. But to get a specific knowledge, I got books, and I just berated people until they told me what I needed to know. And I found this herb, ephedra, which was being used as a diet product back then, and nobody had ever used it for anything else, really. You know, it was diet and some Chinese medicine and that was it. And I thought, wow, wow. What are the physiological effects of this stuff? And I researched it, and I was like, oh, well, MDMA is methyl dioxymethamphetamine. So this could be part of the amphetamine component of it. What if I mixed it with this other stuff and I started trying different things until I came up with a formula that worked? It was really just trial and error.

[B]

Had you ever rolled before?

[A]

No.

[B]

And did you try the pill after you had made it?

[A]

I tried mine. I never tried real until I was well, well into my maybe 30s. Wow. Yeah. I did no drugs, man. I did no drugs. And that's one of the reasons why I got rich doing this. That's one of the reasons why we made a billion dollars. Because when you're in an environment where everybody is fucking getting high and drunk and doing all that stuff and you're the only sober person there, that's a fucking edge. I tell people that all the time. If you're around a lot of people that are doing all that stuff and you can just stay awake and alert and just show up, you're like 98%.

[B]

Of the way there, you sleep 30% better, you think 40% faster on the aggregate, you're going to have a real edge.

[A]

Yeah, all that stuff might be fun and I get why people like to explore and I get all that, but I'm not an advocate of drugs at all. I think if you're interested in making money and making an impact on the world, I would say that it's easier to do without it.

[B]

And so what are the, I guess the side effects? Positive and negative of ephedrine?

[A]

Yeah. So, okay, so you gotta remember there's two different things. So you're saying ephedrine. Ephedrine is alkaloid. So it's a chemical constituent of the plant ephedra. You can extract that from it. And that's what they use to make allergy medicine. You can make speed from it. You can make all kinds of, of stuff from that. Right. And when, like I remember the gas stations, they used to have the pseudo ephedrine, the white tabs the people truckers take to stay awake. That's ephedrine. Ephedra is a plant. And that plant has a thousand different things that keep it in balance. One of the components of it is ephedra. So it's a lot harder to have really, really bad, negative side effects in my opinion. Again, I'm not a doctor, you know, everybody should consult with their doctor before they take anything. And please don't believe me. I am, you know, not the person you should be listening to about your. But in general, we sold billion dollars worth of this stuff. Never had a single incident of anybody having any kind of serious injury. People tried, people tried to claim it because, you know, they saw me like, dude, here's this fucking rich little teenage kid, like, let's get paid. But nothing ever stuck. Nobody was ever injured from my product.

[B]

What are the positive effects?

[A]

So the positive effects is, I think it's one of the best nootropics ever. Unfortunately, it's illegal in the United States. There's only, I think, about eight countries where it's legal. But in the United States, it's now currently illegal. And it's an amazing nootropic. It's a stimulant, kind of like coffee, but it doesn't give you the coffee jitters. It's very close to what you would get with a light dose of some Type of amphetamine. So it definitely keeps you awake, it keeps you alert.

[B]

It's an appetite suppressant.

[A]

It's a big time appetite suppressant. And a lot of people, and the bizarre thing was it's supposed to have the opposite effect. A lot of people take it for sex. I was blown away. Half of our, half of our revenue came from people selling it in sex shops and people buying it instead of Viagra in those days for blood flow.

[B]

Like it would, it would help with like sexual performance.

[A]

So a lot of guys have the opposite effect. They actually can't get it up when they take it for a period of time until, you know, the effects kind of slow down. But if they could, apparently it's some like insane intense thing. And for females who don't need to get it, apparently it created the most amazing sex some people have had in a long time. So I think both partners were taking it. In a lot of instances, females were taking it. But you got to remember you had the 1980s, right, and you had this big pharma company who will remain unnamed. I'm sure people can look it up. And they had a drug, and that drug was an antidepressant, right? A SSRI, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. And what that drug did was that it like temporarily messed with the blood chemistry. It kind of put blinders on the release of serotonin in the brain. I mean, I'm doing a terrible job explaining this. And if you have anybody who's intelligent or an academic, I'm sure they can destroy what I'm saying right now. But basically it, it helped people who were depressed. Problem was 90s rolled along and the main side effect of that drug was erectile dysfunction and sexual dysfunction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But don't worry, we've got a solution. We're going to release this blue pill that'll solve all that problem. So now you got big pharma company with the blue pill coming out. But they're not expecting some snot nosed teenager with zero government regulation, making a billion dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue coming in completely unregulated, taking away their market share. So those big pharma companies went to the government and lobbied to have us taken out. And to this day that's part of the reason why the key ingredients are banned and why we're, you know, it was out of business.

[B]

Okay, we're going to get to that. Okay, yeah, let's rewind. What's up guys? Let's take a. Because you're nostalgic. You remember in your childhood sitting down, watching cartoons, having a big old bowl of cereal. I tried doing that now as a 28 year old father, okay, I sat down with my little baby, I bought cereal from the store, I sat down and I looked at the box. Immediately was like, this is the craziest thing ever. It's so sugary. I tried taking six bites. I felt nauseous afterwards. I mean, it's insane that I used to be able to eat this stuff as a kid. And then I found out about this company called Magic Spoon. Yes, Magic Spoon is an amazing, wholesome, high quality alternative to some of the, you know, cereal brands you used to eat as a little kid. I mean, they have amazing flavors. They got fruit ring circles. No idea what that could be. They have cocoa, not the P word. They got cocoa loops. And I wonder what that is. And you already know what it is, okay? And here's the crazy thing. It tastes as good and has less sugar and is actually great if you're someone that's counting carbs. If you're a carb conscious connoisseur, Magic Spoon is a thing for you. It's absolutely amazing. It tastes great. And I mean, in every, every serving, you're going to get 12 grams of protein on the go. When you get the Magic Spoon cereal bars, you remember these cereal bars from when you were a kid, you would sit down, you would crush like a whole box of these. But now Magic Spoon has the alternative that is gonna taste as good, if not better, with 12 grams of protein on the go. So if you're interested in trying out some Magic Spoon, specifically the cereal bars, you can probably go to Amazon or find them at a grocery store. But if you wanna be frugal, you wanna, you know, save some money, use the promo code camp. That's right. Secret for all the people listening to this program, the promo code camp. C A M P. When you go to magicspoon.com camp, you're gonna save $5 off your next order. So have some fun. Feel like a kid again. Sit down with your kids and enjoy a nice big old bowl of cereal without all the guilt. Let's get back to the show. The drug dealer comes up to you and goes, yo, I need more. All of a sudden, light bulb's going off. Yeah, we did it. You go back to your girl's house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you start making more.

[A]

That's right. So it goes from, well, eventually I find a place that'll make it for me, a commercial place. And again, I didn't have Any money. So I managed to talk them into giving me credit. I showed up with a suit I had to borrow a suit from. It's like two sizes too big. And I walked in and I convinced them to give me credit. I signed out a credit application. They didn't question it much. And now I had credit. And so they produced the products for me inside a lab. It was professional. We got professional packaging. I decided to put in these cool looking pyramids that would set us apart from anybody else who wanted to do what we were doing. And it went from one guy, one drug dealer, he introduced 10 more and then 10 more and then 10 more. And pretty soon the rave scene's kicking off and we're at the forefront of it. And these guys who formerly had illegal operations going were now becoming legal and legitimate. Selling our product in territories. We were breaking off territories. We were printing money. So I'll tell you the economics of it. The pills would cost between 5 cents and 25 cents a package to make an entire package with the pyramid. And everything would be 25 cents, including.

[B]

Packaging and labor, everything.

[A]

Wow, 25 cents. And we would sell it for 20 to $25. Think about this. Most of our business was cash. People would come pay cash, the stores would pay cash, and we would take cash tax free. I didn't say that.

[B]

You said.

[A]

And we would do shows. We were on tour. We went on tour with the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the Beastie Boys. We did all the Lollapaloozas. At Lollapalooza alone, we did over $1 million per show in cash. I had to buy vans to carry the cash back to LA from every tour stop because I didn't know what the fuck to do. I remember sitting in my office in Venice at this point. I had 200 employees and being in my office and literally having these duffel bags packed with cash, having no idea how much money is in each of them. Right? Because we're doing a million bucks a show. And I remember my dog knocking down the fucking duffel bags and the cash just splitting on the floor and getting a knock on the door that the FDA is coming in to do an inspection. That's how crazy my fucking life was.

[B]

How do you get on the road with the Red Hot Chili Peppers?

[A]

We just decided to do Lollapalooza. So we called them. They were down and I think the Beastie Boys were performing with them. And the Beastie Boys had taken some of our product. It was during their Buddhist phase. So they had like a monk traveling with them. And everybody was into, like, herbal medicine and the rave scene, and we were a natural alternative. We weren't causing any harm. And people were taking it. It was people that weren't. The rave people didn't really drink, so they needed something to do. And there was no E. So we were it. We were. We were the main event at a lot of these shows. People would tell us they came to the Lollapalooza events to get our product right. Because you're. You're sitting there, you're watching the Beastie Boys, you're listening to the Chili Peppers, you're having the time of your life, and you want a little something extra. So they would go to the herbal ecstasy booth, and we would be there, and our booth would be amazing. It would look like a harem. We would have feathers and hookahs hanging around, and people would come and hang out. And that's where the cult comes from, because everybody wanted to be around us. And here I am, this teenage kid, absolutely not fucking knowing what's going on. Everybody stealing from me, everybody wanting a piece of me and just trying to figure out how I'm gonna manage this fucking whirlwind that's around me.

[B]

Wow. And how old were you at that point when you first did the lollapalooza?

[A]

It was probably 18. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so there's like a two, three year gap where things are ramping up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is the moment in that window that you're like, oh, shit, this is real money.

[A]

I'll tell you. I know exactly when. So I was doing the interview circuit. I don't know exactly what year it was, but it was early 90s, and, I mean, most of my time was being on the news, like, every single day. I did Sam Donaldson, I did Montel Williams several times. All this stuff is online. I had feature articles and Newsweek, two Newsweek cover articles. I had LA Times, New York Times, London Observer. Huge spread in the COVID of the London observer, calling me the Willy Wonka of Generation X. And I remember Sam Donaldson, the great interviewer. Sam Donaldson's fucking awesome. Wanted to have me on Nightline. And I did a couple interviews before that. On the same day, I was doing multiple major, major network interviews, right? And this was a time where, dude, all of a sudden, I fucking got a taste of fame, right? Because I would leave my office and I would go into a restaurant in la and people would all turn around and people would approach me and women would be everywhere and we're taking pictures. It was nuts. This is before the Fucking Internet. This is before Facebook. This is before TikTok. This is before any social media. Bezos had just started Amazon. He sold his first book. I think it was what, like, 94? This was like, around 92 to 94 all this was happening, right? So this was very, very basic time. People didn't really have websites who still had 1, 800 numbers. And I remember them telling me that Sam Donaldson's gonna come interview me. And the news broke that we had done a billion dollars in revenue by that time. By that time.

[B]

How old were you at that time?

[A]

I was like, 18. Right.

[B]

Is this after Lollapalooza?

[A]

It was after Lollapalooza.

[B]

Right, Got it.

[A]

And so. And I'm a little fuzzy with the exact dates, but I think it was, like, roughly around. I mean, this was, you know, a lot of years ago. So the news breaks, and everybody's telling me this, like, it's a good thing. And I'm thinking to myself, fuck, man, what if they ask me how much a billion is? I don't know what a billion dollars is. Like, I actually literally didn't know how much a billion dollars of money was. And that's when I knew I was kind of fucked. I was like, okay, so I gotta figure this out. Everybody calmed me down. I figured out what a billion dollars was. And I was like, okay, I'm ready for this interview. But it took a minute for me to sit back and go, holy shit. And I remember in those days, it was the craziest shit. I remember I was in my office, and I had taken out all the furniture. I'll explain to you why later if you want to know that story. But I had taken out all the furniture because I felt my employees were getting too fucking comfortable. I don't think you could do that now with Web 3.0. But back then, I felt everybody was getting too fucking comfortable because we were making so much. We were printing money. So it was like everybody had gotten fucking comfortable. I caught several people stealing, and I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm taking out all the furniture. I'm taking out the water coolers. Anybody that wants to continue working here, you'll fucking sit on the floor the way I do. And all the computers came on the floor. I donated all the shit overnight. And the next day, people came in, they started complaining. The first guy complained, he was gone. And I said, anybody else? And a few other people out? And that's how I ran things. That's how I. You know, that's. That was the best I knew how to run things back then.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. So I, I, I remember those days. I mean, it was so crazy. I remember sitting up in my office in Venice beach and I remember my dog. I write about this in my book, Billionaires How I Became King of the Thrillpill Cult. I remember that my dog knocked off this, like, pile of papers, right? And I'm just like, fuck, I don't know. Like, what the fuck is this? This was like before everybody had a computer that actually did shit. And I reached into the pile and I pulled out a check for a million dollars. And it was like, dated like a month and a half ago. And it was just in the fucking pile. And I remember looking at my dog, like, looking at this check. Dude, not long before that time, I was sleeping on the beach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three years before, I was getting ketchup and relish from hot dog stands and putting it on fucking tortillas. Because that's like, that was lunch. That's what I could afford. And here's a check for a million fucking dollars. And I just looked at it. I was like, yeah. Later, I just tossed it back in the pile. Like, I didn't even think about it.

[B]

Like, how do you go from borrowed suit to getting credit from the pill packer to making, like, the first, like, hundred thousand?

[A]

Persuasion and influence. You have to be able to make people believe what you believe. In Walter Isaacson's book about Steve Jobs. It's great. I recommend it to anybody. His book about Steve Jobs, he talks about a reality distortion field. And one of the guys I look up to a lot, Richard Koch, talks about this. Richard Koch is the guy who wrote the 8020 principle. And he's got another book. It's something like Amazing People and the Impossible Things They Do. I'm butchering the title, but he talks about the commonality between all these people like Bezos and Elon and people who've done these things. And it's the ability to be able to bring people into your reality. And I didn't give a shit that I was a teenager. I didn't give a shit that I didn't have anything. And I didn't care about how I looked in their eyes. All I knew is that I had to master the art of influence and persuasion. And that's one of the things I learned from my first mentor, Ed, was that I have to be able to persuade people. Money is great because it's the easiest way to get someone to do something or to give you something that you want. Everything around you, though, has been negotiated one way or another. It's not the only way. There's other ways to persuade people. And that could be persuading them in a way of believing in what you want them to believe in. It could be giving them a part of something that makes them feel some kind of way. And I think people wanted to be part of what I was creating because I had this vast vision of what it was going to become. And it was absolutely crazy, and it was absolutely ridiculous and it was absolutely fucking impossible. But we did it.

[B]

Are you still going through drug dealers at the early days, or are you just sending distributors to parties? Because if you're a legitimate business, you don't need to go through these covert channels.

[A]

So initially, the way that it happened was I had a briefcase, Legit fucking briefcase. No one has briefcases anymore. I hope we could bring those back. Those are pretty fucking awesome. So I had this leather briefcase because I thought it was just such the shit. And I had a pager and it was always filled with pills. And the other one was for cash. I had two of them. And I would literally get paged at any hour, and I would show up, I would open up the briefcase, I would give them the product and they would give me the cash. And that was the business for the first however long. Then from there, I started getting distribution, Meaning a lot of these guys went legit. A lot of them were like, fuck this, man. If I continue doing this at clubs, I'm gonna get arrested. If they were selling drugs, real drugs at the clubs, they would get arrested, they would get in trouble. So they're like, look, I'm just gonna go legit. Can I have a stand at these five clubs in New York? We got a call from this guy, Peter Geisha here in new York. He had a club called the limelight. And it was in a church. It was one of the biggest clubs in New York in the 90s. I think there's a documentary about it. He wanted to sell it in the club. So we started selling the product throughout clubs all over the world.

[B]

Basically, like wholesale distribution at this point.

[A]

Wholesale distribution, both to former drug dealers, maybe some of them were still active drug dealers. From there, it also broke down into retail sales. We were in urban outfitters. We were in GNC. We were in 7 11. We were in major, major chain stores. We were in tower records. You remember tower records? Maybe it was before you on hologram. I'm almost 50 now. So we sold in tower records. We sold in record stores. We sold in sex shops. Because, remember, half of our sales went to people who were using it for that. We sold in doctors offices, which was a shocking thing to me.

[B]

How quickly does that ramp is that? Like year two, we're getting wholesale distribution and you're doing all the meetings to do all the distribution? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So at that point, I had a staff. I had over 200 people working for me right in the center of Venice Beach. So almost every building in Venice beach was mine. I was renting out all the buildings. You could probably go outside and throw a stone. You'd hit somebody. That worked for me. It was like if you went to Venice BEACH in the 90s, everywhere you went, you saw people with white shirts and this glow in the dark, beautiful butterfly in the front. And they all worked for me. All the cafes were filled with people who worked for me. You went on the boardwalk, it was all people who worked for me. All the shops sold our stuff, and we were everywhere. We even had a flagship store on Melrose that was called the Ecstasy Store. It was like the first major psychedelic store in the world. And we carried anything and everything having to do with legal highs. We sold books, we sold things to smoke, we sold all kinds of stuff.

[B]

Was salvia illegal at that time?

[A]

So salvia is an interesting story. I was the one who brought salvia to the United States and commercialized it.

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

That's right. That's an even crazier story if you want to go into that.

[B]

I mean, fuck it, bro. We're here.

[A]

Wait, so you know about that? You know what? We should tell people what salvia is for people who don't know.

[B]

Can I tell you my experience in perspective with it? I never did salvia, but, like, I remember a time when it would be sold at, like, weed and, like, little head shops, right? Like, there'd be a place that sell bongs, it would sell little weed on the side, but then they had clear as day, packaged professionally, salvia. And a high schooler could go into this smoke shop, buy salvia, pop it in the backseat of their Honda Civic, and then live a lifetime as a Muppet in an alternate universe.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And then snap back in five minutes, and their friends are like, dude, how was it? And you're like, I don't know who I am anymore. Like, you might live as, like, a label on a Coca Cola can and just be tiny for a year, and then you come back and it's only been five minutes. And basically, to give these people, like, these intense psychedelic experiences and it was completely legal for a very long time in the United States. Is that a fair assessment?

[A]

Yes. I'm going to blow your mind right now. So what we're talking about. Salvia divinorum. Salvia divinorum was initially discovered. It was used for hundreds of years, maybe thousands of years by people in the mazatecas in Mexico. It was originally discovered by this guy, Gordon Wasson, who was the person to popularize magic mushrooms and bring them into the United States. And Albert Hoffman. They went on an expedition and they.

[B]

Met that woman, Maria Hernandez.

[A]

Maria Sabina.

[B]

Maria Sabina, that's right.

[A]

So fast forward. I'm hanging out with Terrence McKenna. Do you know who Terrence McKenna was? Okay. And remember, I was kind of famous with the famous back then. So I knew Timothy leary. I knew Terrence mckenna. I knew the shulgins, who were modern day discoverers of the real e. And.

[B]

How old are you at this point?

[A]

At this point, I must have been 18, 19 somewhere around.

[B]

Are you still in the come up on the.

[A]

I'm still in the come up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, sorry. This would have been later. I apologize. So I misspoke. This would have been later because herbally was being heavily regulated. Got it.

[B]

Okay. We're going to come back to the whole herbally timeline.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But we're going to take this fun little detour on salvia right now.

[A]

I've never told this story. There's a crazy story. I wrote a book about it, but I never told anybody about it. The book by was by one of these underground publishers, and it's been unpublished since. So I'm hanging out with Terrence, and Terrence is like, this is so cool. Right? Back then, the people in the psychedelics community really super righteous and fucking hated me because they felt that I was the commercialization of everything they held sacred. Right. They just wanted to hang out and do their quote unquote, medicine, right? Or drugs, whatever you want to call it, and really be high and holy than everybody else. And then here comes this little Iranian kid who's making a billion dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars coming through the door of something that's called similar to something that they hold, sacrosanct.

[B]

And it's in a sex shop and it's that urban outfitters. And it's like, that's right. This is not what it was supposed to be.

[A]

That's right. They didn't like me.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

They hated me. But the one guy that loved me was Terrence. Terrence would call me. I would Talk to him. And Terrence was like, dude, this is fucking awesome. You know, he's like. He's like, this is great. And he's like, you know, you should really do this thing with this other ingredient. I think it's going to work. You should make a cigarette. Because I was making cigarettes. We were making herbal cigarettes. I had the first herbal cigarette in this country. Hugely successful was the standard for Hollywood studios, still is to this day, called XC cigarettes. I no longer make them, but that's what they smoke on screen. All the big celebs, when they're smoking cigarettes, they smoke my stuff.

[B]

Yeah. What is the clover?

[A]

Is that clove cigarettes? No, this was something totally different than that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So Terrence tells me about this ingredient, but you can't get it anywhere. You can only get it from these really obscure botanists. And you got to order it from a guy in Florida, and he's got to know a guy, and you got to pay, and it's totally illegal. And he'll ship you one plant. You got to dry the leaves and blah, blah, blah. And I'm talking to Terrence, and I'm like, dude, this sounds great, but I'm not going to start a fucking farm, Terrence. And as far as I know, this stuff doesn't really grow outside of Mexico. So he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't think anything of it. Some time goes by, and I get a call from a mysterious dude calling himself Jack. He's like, hi, I'm living in Mexico. I'm like, cool, cool. And somehow he got my number. He got through, which is rare because at this point, I had multiple barriers to getting a hold of me because everybody wanted a piece. And he's like, I hear you're looking for salvia. And at first I thought Terrence referred him. And I asked, and he's like, no, I don't know anybody by that name. And I said, holy shit. I'll be right there. So we show up in Mexico to a dingy hotel that's frequented by, like, cartelish kind of guys, right? And this guy shows up with another dude, a big, tall Mexican dude who is strapped. They come up to the hotel room, they give us these two kilos. He's just giving it to me, and we take it back to the States, get it tested, turns out it's salvia. And call him back, and he's like, yeah, I can sell it to you. It's going to be a hundred dollars a kilo. I said, cool. We did a couple tests. We could get about $2,200 a kilo. Nobody else was selling the stuff. And we were wrapping it into little cigarettes here in a little facility in Los Angeles. And we started selling salvia like that. And it was the first time anybody had ever sold it. And this guy kept supplying us. We figured out that if you want to have the crazy effects that people have from it, that you would have to get an extract made. You'd have to extract the leaves. Extraction, for people who don't know, is the process of making something stronger by taking out the elements that you wanted from it. Right. Because the leaves are unpredictable. Because you never know how much you get. And depending on how much leaf you smoke. And by the way, salvia, Worst drug ever. I just want to let everybody know, like, I never thought it would become illegal because it is such a bad drug. I don't think anybody would ever want to take it twice. But people want to explore.

[B]

Did you ever take it?

[A]

So, yeah, I did. I did. I actually took it with Terrence in Mexico at the pyramids.

[B]

When was that?

[A]

This was early 90s.

[B]

Was that much later after you were bringing the cigarettes in?

[A]

Yeah, this was in the 90s. No, no, this was before. So he told me about this stuff. So we started thinking, like, who the fuck is this guy? Who's the guy who's supplying us? Like, how did he find us? He was very cryptic, right? And we could only meet him in Mexico at this hotel. We could only pay cash. I mean, dude, I was in the fucking hotel in Mexico, and we were asking the guy downstairs to bring scales so we could weigh out trash bags of stuff. And apparently for the. For the bellboy, we would be tipping him 20 bucks. He was happy to bring a scales. But they're bringing us scales into the hotel room, and then we're walking out with, like, these garbage bags full of salvia and bringing them here. It was fully legal, by the way. Right. So it was. It was not an illegal thing that we were doing, but we were doing that for years. And finally we figured out how to. How to extract it properly. We were doing it in China, and we started making the extracts, which is probably what you saw, which are little glass jars with a little bit of herb and that's enhanced with the extract. And that went gangbusters. We made millions and millions of dollars selling that. We made a video showing people how to use it. We made a little movie about it. I wrote a book about it. And it was through all the stores, mainly sold in our flagship store on Melrose. But all the smoke shops, head shops, sex shops, everybody was selling it. Now this is where the story gets weird. Start to figure out who this guy is. He stops answering his phone. We're like, dude, we're out of supply, we need more. How do we get more of this stuff? You can't really grow it. We didn't know where he was getting it, right? Because this only grows wild in Mexico. People hadn't figured out how to farm it, I think, since they figured out how to do it. But it was a native plant, very bizarre plant. Only grew natively. And we get a call from another guy, says, hi, my name is Bob. And we say, okay, Bob is a Mexican dude. And he's like, I hear you're going to be needing more. We say, yeah, what the fuck happened to the Jack guy? Wouldn't answer. It was just quiet. So this guy took over the operation. The other guy had completely disappeared. And after a while, that guy disappeared too. In the meanwhile, we figured out how to farm it in China. And so we were growing it in China, extracting in China, and selling it for a long period of time in the States. I got out of that business and decided I didn't want to do anything about it. But years later, somebody gave us a call and it was a female. And she said, hi. Jack was my. I forget what it was. It was either her husband or brother in law or something. And she told us that he was working for the CIA. I never verified that. I was unable to verify it, but it was the absolute nuttiest story I had ever heard. But it kind of made sense.

[B]

So wrap the threads for me. The CIA wants to introduce salvia into the American population. So they find a guy that's dealing medicinal legal herbs that get you high and called you up to have you distribute it.

[A]

This is the story I was told. I have zero verification of this, but I wrote the book on it. I popularized it. And you know, that's all I know. I got out of the business long before it was made illegal.

[B]

Why'd you get out of the business?

[A]

And honestly, guys, if you're listening to this, please don't try it. It is real. You know what's fucking funny is by us telling people not to try it, you know what's gonna happen?

[B]

People are gonna do what they wanna do.

[A]

People are gonna do it anyway. But seriously, legit, don't try it. It is the worst drug ever and I really don't recognize it. There's nothing pleasurable about it.

[B]

Wait, what was your Experience doing salvia at the pyramids in Mexico with Terrence McKenna.

[A]

I never want to do it again. It was. It was crazy. It was like I. You know, my world was like a jar, if you can imagine a jar, and somebody smashed it with a hammer, and all the pieces flew everywhere. And my consciousness was alive in each of those glass pieces traveling through the air. And what really was five minutes felt like 50 years. Like I had whole other lives in each of those. But it wasn't just one. It was like multidimensional, living in lots of different places, right? Bread maker, shoemaker, you know, whatever it was. So it was an. It was absolutely a crazy thing, but it wasn't pleasant. I want. I had a longing for being back to what I was, but I didn't know what I was. And it was the most terrifying experience I've had of any substance I've ever taken. Because there's no certainty that you're ever getting back.

[B]

So you come back after five minutes, and how do you feel? You look at Terrence and you're like.

[A]

I gave him a big hug because I was like, holy shit, I'm so glad to be back. It's one of those things that's so horrible when you're doing it. When you come back, you feel like a million bucks. And in fact, I know people. I think it was the University of Cuba or one of these universities, was using it as a cure for depression. And I was like, I totally see how that fucking works. Because if you're depressed and you take this and you see what's on that other side, you ain't gonna want to die. So it's like, I think it could have medical benefits, but because you blast.

[B]

Off into some parallel universe, and then when you come back to this and you're like, oh, thank God.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. But, dude, I think there's. There's certain dimensions that we're just not meant to explore, and I think that's definitely one of them. I think it's definitely not good for you. I think it definitely doesn't advance you as a person in your life. And if you want to have anxiety for a long period of time, I think it's a great thing. But other than that, I would definitely not recommend taking that.

[B]

Did you have a little bit of disassociation afterwards?

[A]

I. You know, I had a little bit of anxiety afterwards from it. I don't think it was anti anxiety for me, but I'm naturally, like, wired in that way where I'm like, I want to fucking get back. I like my life, you know, And I realized, you know, like, I like my fucking life. I like my friends. I like the way that I live.

[B]

Your brain, your chemistry.

[A]

I like, I like where I'm at. Like, I don't need that stuff. But, you know, in my 20s, I had to, like, you know, fucking learn that somehow. And I guess that was my path, right? So I did what I did, and thank God I didn't, you know, do anything to me in that way.

[B]

Why'd you get out of the salvi business?

[A]

You know, at that time, I was getting out of all the herbal actually stuff. It was really wearing on me. And it was fun when I was doing cool shit with cool people, which is my motto for life. Even now when I mentor people, I teach people how to make money, I do all that stuff. I have a measure because I don't need the money anymore. So the measure is I want to be doing cool shit with cool people. And I kind of want to wake up in the morning and fucking do that thing. I want to wake up in the morning and be excited about what I'm doing when it stops being fun. I've worked too hard in my life to fucking go back to working with people I don't want to, doing shit that I don't want to do. So I'm sure it's the same with you doing this podcast. I'm sure it's fucking fun for you. You're having a great fucking time. You're living your best life. Doing stand up, like, fucking lights you up. I've seen you do stand up, and I see you change who you are. And I can see how you get excited about that and you think about what your next thing is and you want to do. That's what you should be doing. But when that stops being fun, that's when we should stop doing that stuff. Because life's short. And so I felt that way. I felt it. I was young, but I was like, look, I made my money, I'm good. I don't have to work anymore if I don't want to. I'm sure I'll be doing other stuff, but I don't have to. And this is just too stressful. All the government was coming after me. That was the other thing. So the pharma companies lobbied the government. The government was like, let's get them. Let's fucking get this kid. So every three letter agency, you know, was coming after me. People were stealing from me. People were taking advantage of me because I was a Kid and I was very wealthy, and people were like, oh, shit, how did he get that? People get jealous. People around you want what you have. People come after you when you get successful like that. So if you are below the radar and you're making a little bit of money, people don't fuck with you. But when you start making big money, millions, hundreds of millions, everybody wants a piece. Lawyers from people you never know. Women who you never talk to, come come out and say things about you. It's. Especially if you're young, because they see you as being weak and almost like, uneducated about the way the world works. So everybody wants to, like, get their hand in there and take. Take a piece of you. And that was. That was. That was really grating on me. That was really difficult. And I was like, you know what? Now it's time to do something different. So I more or less walked away from it at that point.

[B]

1941, Hitler took command of the German army. 1997, Titanic premiered in the theaters. 1777, George Washington led troops troops into the winter quarters of Valley Forge. There's all these explanations for everything that's going on in our newsletter. That's right. That's where I learned all this. You go on a first date and you're talking to a girl. You're like, hey, did you know 1941, Hitler took over Germany today? Whoa. And she's probably like, that's you. You're an awesome guy. You could be the most interesting person on every date, get laid easier and make more friends. If you subscribe to the newsletter, and not only that, I'm sure you've seen I've been wearing merchants. I've been wearing sick brand new merch on episodes of Flagrant. I'm sitting right next to 50 cent in this picture right here wearing brand new merch. Everything that's going on in the camp world, in my world and in our world is going on in the newsletter. S'more Camp. Click on the link in the description below. I'll see you there. Let's get back to the show. So when you're 15, you're homeless. When you're 18, you're making a billion dollars getting interviewed on the biggest shows in America with wholesale distribution of your product in every major supplement store, at raves, at sex shops all over the country, making crazy money. The margins on this stuff is insane. I mean, if you made a billion, you probably spent 100 million less.

[A]

Yeah. So you have to calculate the money that people were stealing from me because everybody was Stealing from me from the get go. From the get go. I had no accounting. I had no math. Most of it was cash and duffel bags. How many of those things do you think arrived at the office? How many of them never arrived at the office? How many of those vans stopped somewhere before they arrived at the office?

[B]

Who stole from me? You don't have to say whose name.

[A]

But who didn't steal from me, Right? So it was everybody at that time.

[B]

You're hiring, like, your friends and things like that, right?

[A]

I'm hiring my friends. I'm hiring anybody that can fog up a mirror at that point. Because we had a huge operation. I didn't know how to hire. I wasn't a CEO. I wasn't even a coo. I didn't know how to run anything. I mean, since I've learned and I've created an algorithm and now I teach people how to do that, but back then, I didn't know how to do that. So I was just flying by the seat of my pants, Right? But it was amazing because it was a period of time where I had kind of cracked the code, right? I had. I had, like, broken the matrix, and anything I did was successful. I was like, fuck, we should. You know, we make T shirts. We should just make T shirts and sell them. And I would print T shirts, and all of a sudden we'd make tens of millions of dollars selling T shirts. Or I'd be like, I came out with crazy shit. I was like, I want to do a rave cd. We're gonna do a rave cd. And I found some dude at raves who, like, I don't know, dude could barely talk, and I had him do a CD. We sold 50,000 copies of the CDC.

[B]

CIA wants you to sell salvia. And all of a sudden, you make a couple 50 mil on that.

[A]

Yeah, look, allegedly. I don't know if that's who it was. That's the way this goes. Yeah. For the story, that's. But some of the stuff checked out, some of it didn't. But it's a mystery. But I don't know how that stuff got there.

[B]

But again, you make a little money trying this new venture. And that works.

[A]

Yeah, Everything I did worked. Everything I did worked. Back then. It was like, I couldn't fail. And I talk about it in my book, and I teach it to the people who I mentor is. I called it suicide margins back in those days. Like, any problem that you can solve with money isn't a problem because money's easy to make. People just didn't have that mindset. I remember sitting down, I would be in, like, these big meeting rooms, right? And there'd be, like, lawyers. And the guy would sit down and he'd drop the keys to his Porsche on the table. And, you know, there'd be bankers and stuff. And I'd look at the guy, you know, who dropped his keys, and he had the expensive Italian suit or whatever, and I'd be like, dude, what do you make? He'd be like, well, you know, this year I'm gonna make 100,000. And I was like, fuck, dude. I made that in, like, 20 minutes driving over here, like. And I was like, how long did you go to school? He's like, well, you know, six years for this, two years to get this. And, you know, I worked in. I was like, fuck, man. That dude worked 16 years, you know, just in, like, education and starting in his practice, and he's making 100 grand, and I fucking made that before lunch. Like, there's something wrong here. Like, something doesn't equate. And at the same time, I had this huge imposter syndrome where I was like, how can this fucking be real? How can I actually. Everything I touch is fucking turning to gold. How can any of this be real? This doesn't make sense. It was the craziest feeling at that time.

[B]

What's the first dumb thing that you bought?

[A]

Oh, dude, I had collections of crazy cars. I had Ferraris. I had the first Nissan NSX that came out, which was badass. I bought boats, jet skis, houses. I bought beach house. You know, Bronson, Pinchaw, if you ever see Beverly Hills Cop. Oh, yeah, yeah. He was actually a great comedian. I know you're into comedy, but he's great. I bought his Malibu beach house on whatever it is, Celebrity Row out there. This is a crazy beach house. I just bought it all cash. Just pay cash.

[B]

18, 19.

[A]

18, 19. Oh, how old was that? Yeah, it would be roughly around there. Yeah.

[B]

When do your parents come back in the fold?

[A]

So kind of in my 20s. Once I made money once I was, like, really wealthy. Then I came back and everything was good because they're like, you have shamed this family. You have brought shame to our family, Shyeen. And I'm like, yeah, but I just put a million dollars in your account. Arsan, we are so proud of you. Money solves all things when it comes to immigrant families. Right? They can't talk shit about you too long.

[B]

Were they at any point skeptical about the endeavor? Were they like, oh, my Son's drug dealer. Or was it like, oh, it's fine.

[A]

I think people were talking a lot of shit. Like, it was actually went on. So they have, like, Persian radio. And I remember listening to Persian radio, and one of my fucking cousins, who I never talked to was on there telling him how I was leading a cult and I was a drug dealer. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. This is new information for me. Like, everybody wants a little bit of that stardust that breaks off of you. Everybody wants a piece of you. When you get wealthy and you get rich and if you get both, everybody wants a piece. So even if they just touched you in the past, they want somebody to know that story because it brings importance to them. Because most people don't have importance and value to themselves, or I should say a lot of people. So when they touch someone like that, they want people to know. Or at least that's what it was like for me back then.

[B]

Did women become a problem at this point?

[A]

No. I mean, you know, I was fairly conservative as far as, like, you know, I slept on the floor of the factory. I slept on the floor of the office. I was.

[B]

You have a Malibu little, you know, beach house.

[A]

I did have the beach house. Yeah. I did have the beach house. You know, women came, and it was great. I had great relationships with a lot of women. I had girlfriends from time to time, and. And I had a pretty good time.

[B]

But it never became a headache. It was never like, oh, this girl says she has a baby with me, and she's trying to get some money out of me.

[A]

There were girls that were trying to get money out of me. There's no babies that I know of. But there were. There's a lot. I mean, look, it's tough, man, when you're a young kid, right? I had long hair. I was a young kid. I had a lot of money. I had all the trappings of wealth.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. That seems like you'd be a clear target for some girl to try to get a baby off you or try to.

[A]

Yeah, you'd have to get in. And that was difficult because I just was not available. Right. Like, I was flying all over the world doing interviews. I was just busy all the time. And you would have to kind of pass my bullshit detector, which at that time was high, because everybody wanted something from me. And that was a very difficult thing because you never knew who's, like, gonna be there for you, who's ride or die, like, who's your best bud. And who is just there for the money or the fame or just wants to be part of the buzz? We were the in thing. We were the it thing. Everywhere we went, people wanted to be a part of what we were doing. And that's tough. That's tough. But, you know, the whole game, you know, with dating and women and stuff is much, much harder when you're a millionaire. Or at least it was back in the 90s. I'm married now, so I don't have that problem.

[B]

Who was Ride or Die? Like, which one of your friends? Like, did you have people from high school that you're like, oh, this guy never stole? He was solid the whole way?

[A]

No, look, I have a couple friends who I'm still friends with to this very day who in those days really had my back, but it was really just one or two people. The rest of people either are unknowns. I don't know if they stole or didn't, or they did steal and they did take advantage. So it was a really difficult thing. And I write about it in the book and people will see it in the movie as well. But yeah, that's one of the challenges, especially if you make money really fast. I think if you come from wealth or if you make money over time, it's a different story. But if you make it overnight, like, literally, like a few months back, you're sleeping on the beach and then you've got all this wealth, it's a very difficult thing to digest. And I think for most people it doesn't go well.

[B]

What was the most money you made in a year at that time, like, prior to it becoming illegal?

[A]

Oh, I don't know. I mean, I know like in aggregate, it did probably over a billion dollars. I'm probably being considered a year. No, in a year it was definitely hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't know like how much in a year. I mean, it's this. You're talking about something that would be over 30 something years ago. So it's hard for me to know. But, you know, I'm fucking terrible with math. I was terrible with fucking account dude. I had duffel bags stuffed with cash trying to figure out to do with it that what kind of fucking business person does that? Like, I mean, when I look back to some of the stupid shit I did, like the things I trusted people with, the, like the way I operated the business and the way that I operate now, very different.

[B]

So how does the empire start to crumble?

[A]

Yeah, so the government was coming after us. I realized that you can't fight the government because it's very expensive to fight the government. It costs millions of dollars. And you can't win because even if you win, you lose.

[B]

Who tags you first is the FDA or the irs?

[A]

It was all of them? Yeah, it was all of them. No, I mean, the IRS never was much. But they came after us. The every three letter agency came after us. And they were like, here's the crazy thing. What people don't know when these agencies come after you for the most part, I mean, assuming you haven't done anything criminal, right. If you do something criminal, then that's a different story. But when you do civil stuff, they come to you and they ask for money. It is the most insane thing. Now, mind you, I had a middle school education. I didn't even have a high school education. And the attorneys come to me and they're like, oh, finally, you know, the. This three later agency has served us with this stuff. And it's bad, Shane. It's bad. I'm like, all right, how bad? Looks like you're gonna have to pay $200,000. And I'm like, okay, so. And then what happens? Yeah, no, that's. That's it. Didn't you hear us? And I was like, so the way that this works is they think you do something wrong. If you're right or wrong, it doesn't matter, but you can just pay and it goes away.

[B]

It's called a fee.

[A]

Yeah, but, you know, they all. Like I said, when you're making that level of money, everybody wants a piece. And the government's no stranger. They want a piece, too. Everybody wants a piece. And everybody wants to make a target of you. Because I was a very good example of them to make because I was on TV all the time. I was thumbing my nose at the authorities. I should have just shut the fuck up, but I didn't. I was very loud and very out there at that time. I didn't realize that you can make money quietly, which is what I teach people to do now. I was noisy about it. And so what happened was all these agencies started coming after me, started costing me millions of dollars. I mean, I had attorneys on staff, and I really just got burnt out from it. So eventually I kind of dismantled it, sold off some of the pieces of it, and moved on to inventing digital vaporization, which a lot of people don't know.

[B]

Did they ultimately make it illegal while you still had the companies?

[A]

No, what they did was it was a game of cat and mouse. So they would ban one ingredient. So, like, they banned ephedra, but there was another one that was similar to ephedra that we put in the. In the product. And then I would go on some big news channel and they'd be like, well, what are the ingredients in your products now? I'd be like, oh, it's this thing. And then they'd be like, oh, shit, we gotta ban that. And they would ban that. And then I would come up again and they'd be like, what are you having it this week? And I'd be like, kava Kava. I introduced Kava Kava, you know, in a big way to mass commercial scale. Nobody had sold that before in the way that we did. Oh, yeah, okay. And so they restricted that. So everything became restricted. And I was just like, you know what? This shit's fucking exhausting. And I don't need the stress. I've got the millions. You know, my life is good. Like, I should get out. And, you know, I think most people don't think about that, right, because they have, like, this gambler mentality. But I didn't. I was just like, you know what? Like, I need to move on to the next thing. And during that time, I had started working on the first vape in the late 90s, and nobody knew what a vape was. Nobody knew what that technology was. I built that technology, I patented it. I was the first vape company to go public, and I sold that company. But we were making the first vapes. It's well documented. And that company made millions of dollars, too.

[B]

So at what age did you step away from the ephedra?

[A]

Oh, it was probably like 20, 21, something like that.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you had amassed what level of wealth at that point?

[A]

So a lot of the money was burnt, a lot of it was spent. That was the other thing. The money was, like, just going straight down the drain with the legal fees, fighting all these agencies, theft from the.

[B]

Employees and people you trusted.

[A]

Yeah. So it was, you know, I squirreled away a good amount of money and had a bunch of money, investments in real estate and other things. So nine figures, you know? Yeah, it was low nine figures. I think at that point.

[B]

That's not bad for 20 years old.

[A]

No.

[B]

What happened to your mentor?

[A]

Ed died. He died not too long ago, and I had several other mentors after him.

[B]

But at that time, when you're 20 years old, you just exit this whole company, sell off everything.

[A]

Yeah, he kind of disappeared before I did that. He was a very mysterious character. He was Not a normal human being. He was a very unusual person, and I think when he felt that I was ready to go out on my own, I think he just disappeared. And I didn't talk to him after.

[B]

He never popped back up. When you were making the money, he never wanted to say hey.

[A]

No, not really. He never checked in? No, no, no. He didn't have a number. He had one of those voicemails and then later a pager. And that was it. That was how I'd get a hold of him. I would leave a message, and then he would call me back somehow.

[B]

Did you ever reconnect with him before he passed away?

[A]

No, unfortunately, no. But I heard from a mutual friend that he passed away, and then I checked it out, and he did.

[B]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What a bizarre turn of events.

[A]

He was a bizarre dude. He was an unusual dude. I mean, he was an activist to the extreme. I mean, he fought police departments of major. I mean, he was called the California Walkman, if anybody wants to look it up. But he was a very unusual character, and I think something happened to him. I think something happened to him when he first took lsd. That shifted his consciousness in another way. I don't know. He slipped into another dimension or something and came back a different person or maybe realized his potential. And his real potential, I don't think, was the activism that he did, but I think it was inspiring and influencing people like myself to be different. Right. Showing us what's behind the curtain.

[B]

Hmm. Now the book takes on sort of like a cult angle, that there were certain people that would kind of follow you guys around at different raves. And, like, they loved the supplement and they wanted to keep on taking it, and they, like, formed a bond with each other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you expand on that sort of labeling?

[A]

Yeah. So look, well, I have a crazy cult story for you of a real cult, but I will tell you about kind of the Cult of Herbal E, and then I can share that story with you. I think you might find it fun. It's kind of a funny story, but, yeah, look, I think people are always looking for something to hang on to, something to identify with. I think we're seeing that more and more now with all social media, TikTok, everything that's going. People want to identify and belong to something because in general, particularly people in younger generations feel disenfranchised. Right. You look on YouTube, you look on TikTok, everybody's got a Lambo. Everybody's going to marvelous places and living these magical lives. And it's out of reach. So when somebody comes by who has a plan, when there's something that they could hang their hat on, people have a tendency to gravitate towards that. And I had 200 employees at that time and millions of people all over the world that were using our product. So I actually remember the day when Details magazine article came out, and they had flown me out to New York, which is where we're at now, to be photographed by this amazing dude, this incredible photographer, this guy David lachapelle, who's a legendary photographer. He's got a book on Taschen. He's incredible. And he was going to photograph me for what was to be the COVID of Details magazine, which was a big magazine in the 90s. If people don't know. It turned out that they put. Who's the guy from Soundgarden? Whoever that. Chris Cornell.

[B]

Chris Cornell.

[A]

Chris Cornell was on the COVID But we got a mention on the COVID And it was a huge article on the inside. It was like a nine page article on the inside. And I remember it was like a Day in the Life kind of interview. So they sent this reporter out, this total weenie guy came, and he was like, following me around. I was like, oh, this guy's such a dick. I was like, you know what? I gotta fucking lose this guy. Cause I can't, like, I can't handle his douchiness. And so we bailed on him. He wanted to follow us to a club or a party or some celebrity had invited me to something. So we were going. So we lost the guy. And then, you know, a few weeks later, the article came out, and it was the most sensational article ever. And the headline was, the $350 million scam. And I remember that piece coming out, and it was a big magazine back then. I think it was in hundreds of thousands of issues in circulation. I just remember thinking to myself, fuck, all right. That's it. Especially for somebody with imposter syndrome. I started thinking to myself, dude, none of my friends are going to talk to me. No girl's ever going to want to hang out with me. This is it. I'm totally fucked. I just remember the phone started ringing over and over and over again. Girls were coming to my door with marriage proposals and bringing me gifts. And it was the most insane thing I had ever seen. And it was the shittiest article I had ever read.

[B]

But it put a number on you.

[A]

It put a number. Yeah, it said 350 million. Which I think he knew that we had done much more than that, but I think he published that as kind of a jab.

[B]

Hilarious.

[A]

Pretty funny, right?

[B]

But it's also like, you know, not every girl cares how the money's made.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

They just care that there's 350 million laying around. You know what I mean?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's right. Oh, I mean, that was a crazy time. But I'll tell you, as far as cults go, here's a really crazy story. It's a fun story. So there was a bookstore in LA called the Bodhi Tree. And the Bodhi Tree was this amazing place. I think it was from like the 1960s. And it was like a bookstore of everything esoteric and spiritual and occult and anything to do with alternative ways of thinking, they had it there. But it was more than a bookstore. It was like a place to be and to meet like minded people. They had lectures, they had all kinds of crazy, wacky things. So I was there. I showed up there because I would spend most of my money before I had money on books. And when I had money, I would spend thousands of dollars and just buying books. And I would spend entire weekends like in a room just reading piles of books on anything and everything I was interested in. Business, self development, personal development, any of that stuff. So I went there and I had my usual haul of books and I noticed this, this girl, super hot, like in the. I'm like, all right, I got to go talk to her. So I went and talked to her and she was like a little awkward, but very responsive. And we exchanged phone numbers. She gave me her phone number and I didn't think much about it, right? So I go off, she calls me right away, she's like, hey, love to invite you over to my house for dinner. And I was like, oh, well, that happened pretty, pretty freaking fast. I was like, but you know, maybe she like, you know, she found out who I was or she had seen me on TV or something like that. I was like, yeah, I didn't care.

[B]

Going to the house on a first date, it's pretty good.

[A]

It's pretty attractive. I was like, yeah, sure. So I show up to the house, to this address, and it's one of those houses where it takes you 15 minutes to go from the driveway to the front door. I mean, a real fucking mansion, right? And so I drive to the front. I'm like, this can't be the right address. I mean, this chick looked like kind of shabby. Like, well, she was attractive, but shabby. So we go into the door and this dude opens the door and he's like, hello. I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm here to see someone. And by the way, I'm not going to name who this person is because they're probably still around. And he goes, welcome. I'm like, who are you, sir? I'm just here to, you know, I was invited to dinner. He's like, yes, we know you're invited to dinner. I'm God's butler. And I said, God's butler, huh? This is gonna be one hell of a night. So as I walk in through the front door, he's like, please have a seat. There's a fireplace. And on top of the fireplace is a big ass picture of this guru, right? And I'll give you a clue. A white dude who had gone to India in the 60s and started this, like, mega cult. And there was obviously some kind of scandal, so now he was living on some island somewhere, but these were his followers. And there's all these weird women dressed in all white, and they all disappear into the back rooms. And the butler goes, she'll be right with you, sir. And I'm going, what the is this? And then she comes out, I mean, dressed beautifully in this, like, sheer lace thing. And I mean, she was. I think she was a model at that time as well. And she goes, oh, you've met the butler. Come into the house. And so we come into the main part of the house and there's this old, like, dining table with like, you know, silver fucking, you know, those things where you take the top off this all set up for us. Beautiful beast, right? And she tells me, she's like, have a seat. And the butler comes in and sits at the corner and these women appear, drop off, like, some plates of stuff, and they immediately go back. There's no talk about who they are or what they are, like, anything like that. Like that. And I'm sitting there going, holy effing, you know what? I just thought I'd be like, you know, going on a date with this.

[B]

Girl, having spaghetti in the kitchen.

[A]

Having spaghetti in the kitchen. And turns out that her dad was one of the biggest cult guys in the 1960s. And, you know, he owns a lot of property from money from his followers, and this is one of many. And she was kind of a rebel and kind of didn't really subscribe to it. So the dad gave her the house and a bunch of this other stuff and told his followers that she might be the next God in their group. So they have to look after her. And I remember thinking to myself like, dude, how do I get out of this one? I was like, like, she's hot, but really weird.

[B]

Like the hell.

[A]

Like really hot, really weird.

[B]

I mean, guys complain about like crystal girls where they're like, oh, she's got a salt lamp in her room, bro. You ever try to smash God? Like, what the. Like that's crazy.

[A]

This is a legit weird ass 90s.

[B]

So what is the rest of the dinner like?

[A]

They brought out some vegetarian stuff which was very bland. They had a very specific diet that, that God made you eat and he ate it. And then what did you talk about?

[B]

Were you like, oh, you have any siblings? Like what?

[A]

First date, Very odd spiritual type topics that like everything came back to their like supreme God guy. So it was kind of like, yes. And he tells us that to only eat carrots because they, you know, I don't know, came out of this, this wombat's butt. I don't know, it was like that kind of like wacky shit and you just couldn't argue. You were just like, mm, mm. And you know, it was a very awkward dinner.

[B]

You smashed.

[A]

I'm not going to say if I did or I did not, but I'm not going to say that I didn't.

[B]

That is wild, bro.

[A]

It was the craziest freaking thing. I mean it was, it was a legit cult, like legit. I looked the guy up, he had thousands of people, part of his cult, living on some frickin island.

[B]

Do you think she was plotting on you?

[A]

Oh, like to join? Oh, she definitely wanted me to join.

[B]

But I'm saying, like she saw you at the bookstore a week before and she was like, oh, how often does that guy come in and then tracked you down and then gave you the proposition?

[A]

No, I think I was fairly innocent. I think she was, I think she was like kind of genuine. Yeah, she was, she was kind of like, you know, it's like, dude was her dad. But like, shit's weird. Like why is guys like anyway, you.

[B]

Still want the compliment, bro? You're still like, no, she liked me for me, man. Like, bro, she was plotting on you, bro.

[A]

Maybe she was. Maybe you're still like, no, she, she.

[B]

It was because my jokes.

[A]

It was my personality. It was my personality and looks. I don't know. I don't know. It was a weird time, man. But you know, it's, it's strange like when you're in the flow of things. I tell people this all the time. When you're in the flow Magical shit happens. You know this because you're a successful comedian, right? But you weren't always a successful comedian. So something happens, something shifted where you went from being unsuccessful to successful. And it's that moment where if you can capture that, you can make that goal for a very long time. And I feel like that's what I did. I feel like that's what I'm still doing.

[B]

Kind of Law of Attraction vibes almost. I don't mean to superstitize it or whatever, but it is this idea that, that little magic where things go in my favor, like where the ball is bouncing on the edge of the rim and it could bounce out or it could bounce in. More often than not the ball's bouncing in.

[A]

Let me put it to you this way. I think a lot about this stuff, right? And I don't know about Law of Attraction. I'm sure it works for some people, doesn't work for other people. I have a 10 year old, my 10 year old boy, he asked me the other day, we were in London, he looks at me, he goes, dad, how do people get lucky? And I said, what? He goes, yeah, you know, this guy, like when people get wealthy, do they ever get lucky? And I said, I thought about it for a second, it occurred to me, yes, people get lucky, but in life you have to make your own luck. So luck isn't just, oh, randomly. Something came to me. Sometimes random things will come to you, but you have to be at the right time, at the right place, doing the right thing. You may not know what you're doing, why you're doing it, but if you set your intention, you have the right mindset, you can create the environment where luck comes to you. And in that way it's not woo woo. I believe in luck in that way that we can create our own luck. So that's how I explained it to him. And in the mind of a magical 10 year old, it worked beautifully.

[B]

No, I think that's a, I think that's a great way to put it. I've always seen luck as a, as a lottery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do people that win the lottery, are they lucky? Sure. But they bought a ticket.

[A]

They bought a ticket. That's right.

[B]

You know, and sometimes people buy hundreds of tickets and those people might get luckier. So if you have many ventures, if you're meeting many people, if you're constantly working, those are just more tickets that you're buying. That's not a guarantee that you're going to win. But if you play long enough, your Odds of winning go way up.

[A]

That's right. What I'm hearing you say is if you don't play, you have 100% chance of failing.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. That's good life advice.

[B]

Go play the lottery. All right. Go. That's a good way to get rich. If you're trying to get rich, that's the move. All right. But no, I do think that's generally true. I mean, it is a frequency. You know what I mean? I don't know why I always look at it as a little bottle. And I imagine there's a marble bouncing in here, and every time the marble bounces out, that's like a success. And it's like, the more little balls you put in here, the odds of a ball bouncing out go way up if they're bouncing all over. So it's just like, the more work and the more people you're meeting, the more energy you put into a venture or multiple ventures. It's just upping your frequency of having success.

[A]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. I believe that it's crazy because life works synchronistically. And I didn't used to believe so much in this. It just happened for me. And I started to think about it, and it's like, you put yourself in a certain mindset, and then you put yourself out into the world, and you're like, you know what? I'm gonna be open to what comes. And when you do that in the right way, opportunities come to you. Like, it's the craziest thing. I was in Paris in the 90s, and I decided to take a train to some party in some little town somewhere, just to go check it out. And sitting next to me, the dude opens up this newspaper, and on the back of the newspaper is an article about me. And then he turns it around and starts reading it. And it's got a big picture of me. And then I see him looking over, and he motions for me to come over, and I sit with him. That guy became my distributor in France for my products. And it was like, I wouldn't have been on that train. I wouldn't be talking to this guy. But all those things were there. I was lucky. But was I lucky, or did I create that luck?

[B]

Well, you got lucky that day, but let's say that didn't happen that day. Maybe you would have gotten lucky a week later.

[A]

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

[B]

Maybe the luck is inevitable because you made enough chances for the threads to tie together.

[A]

That's right. That's right. I Think there's something to getting in the flow. And I don't think this is my problem with things like Law of Attraction and the Secret and these things. I think we try to solidify what those things are. We try to put a label on them, we try to put a name on them, being like, hey, this is this. This is that, right.

[B]

We want it to be formulaic and tangible.

[A]

We want it to be formulaic and tangible. And I don't think there's a formula to that.

[B]

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[A]

Let's get back to the show. There's a guy, I think his name is pronounced Barabbasi, and he wrote this book called the Success Formula. And this guy's really fascinating. He's a professor. He spent his life researching what are the commonalities of success. And I love his book and what he teaches because what he talks about and this is fascinating, he looked at artists like Basquiat. He looked at people like Picasso. He's like, what is the commonality that these people have. And he goes, okay, so first and foremost, athletes, artists, people like that, you have performance, you have to be performative. You have to be able to do a certain level of the work that you do. If you're a comedian, you gotta be able to tell good jokes. They have to have the structure. You gotta have baseline stuff. But a lot of people have that. Like, there were a lot of artists arguably way better than Basquiat at the time of Basquiat. Better color theory, better, you know, all those things that make up good art. But his paintings go for $59 million, and the guy from Metallica collects them. And the other guy you can buy on eBay for 50 bucks and a Coke. Right? So what is the difference between these two? And his answer is it's performance. And in the absence of performance, it's network. Basquiat connected with Warhol. Warhol had a deep and advanced network through all the Illuminati, all the people of that time, all the famous people. So that network amplified the success of what his work was. So a big part. And this was kind of, to your point about what you were saying about luck, is being able to have a network and being able to use it to amplify what you're doing.

[B]

Hmm. Now I'm curious with this network conversation. In the come up, from 15 to 20, you've made hundreds of millions of dollars. The company's grossed over a bill in Rev. I imagine that the type of space that you're in, which is like mostly legal, maybe gray area on unregulated herbal medicine that makes people feel really good. I imagine that you might cross paths with bad people and like bad guys and maybe tough guys that want a piece, and they're either just straight up criminals and want to rob you.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Or they're a distributor that's kind of mobbed up, that's like, hey, if you don't want a problem and we know where you live, you know, you should probably do xyz. Do you have any stories of times where you felt like your life was threatened or you felt like things could go sideways?

[A]

Didn't happen often. Didn't happen often, but it did happen. And I tell the story in my book about a brush with the Yakuza, the Japanese mafia, who. I didn't even know what they were at the time. So Herbally was selling very successfully throughout Japan. The Japanese really liked our product. And the funny thing is because in Japan, if you make it in the shape of a pill, it's considered A drug and it's illegal. So we got around that by putting them in animal shapes. So Herball E was sold in Japan, unlike anywhere else in the world, in animal shapes. So then they saw it as a food that was the only thing in the law. We got a Japanese lawyer and he said, hey, the only way you could sell this here is if you sell them in animal shape. So we got the machines and made them in multivitamin animal shapes and we sold them there and it became very successful. The problem with Japan at the time was that there was a growing underbelly which I didn't know anything about, which were mob people. And we were selling both our supplements and the cigarettes, the E cigarettes to them. E, of course stands for that thing that we're not going to talk about on this show. And so I got a call to fly to Japan and I remember being in a meeting and it was exactly like the movies. It was in one of those ryokan type rooms. The ryokans are the ones where you have the grass mats and there's the geisha looking women serving tea. And it was that kind of a thing. And I remember everybody standing up and I was like, why is everybody standing up? And this man walking in, he was missing a finger on one hand and he was like a very heavy dude. And he sat down heavy by his vibe. And he sat down and I thought that I was in that room to negotiate distribution because we had a distributor there, but the distributor was going through other distributors and I thought they wanted to get the distribution. They understood that they were buying the whole company and taking control of everything thing, which led to a very tense moment where it was one of those times where I was like, am I going to die in this room? Because I looked to my left and there were some very heavy dudes. Everybody was smoking like it was their job. And you know, they, they. There was dudes that were like missing fingers. There was dudes that were like tatted up. And it, it. The vibe was definitely not friendly. And I had my distributor there who was translating for me from English to Japanese. And there was a lot of just like sit down and shut the fuck up. Like just don't say, like, he will talk and you will talk when spoken to and that's it. But I couldn't let the company go at that time and certainly not to the Japanese mob. And it all ended in a very long stare down. What most people don't understand about doing business in Asia, particularly at that time, is that Americans want to get to business, like, right away. So you deal with Americans. It's seen as very rude in Asia, particularly in Japan. They want to sit down and go, okay, so what's the deal? What are the deal points? Let's do it. In Asian culture, they want to get to know you so you can have several meetings before even the topic of business is broached. So we had several of those meetings, and this was the last of them. And it came to this very tense moment where it was a stare down. And I was like, I don't speak the language, and I'm not sure my translator is doing such a good job, but I can't back down. And I remember, like, looking at this guy and he put his hand on mine, and then he got up and it was like this. All the other guys, everybody got up and everybody was standing, and I was like, all right, are we gonna. Am I dying in Japan today? Is that what's happening? Am I gonna die in Japan today? And he walked out. And apparently, you know, we had an understanding that they would get the distributorship, but they were not gonna get the company. And it worked out, but it was one of those weird things that I think it could have just as easily gone a very different direction.

[B]

Wow. So they did handle the distribution for some time.

[A]

Yeah, it's one of those things. In some countries, they just handle it.

[B]

That's just what it is.

[A]

There's a criminal element mixed in with all business. And I didn't deal with them. The distributor dealt with them. The guy dealt with them.

[B]

The Italian restaurants in Brooklyn for years were mobbe joints.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's just like, what it was for years. And some of them still are to this day. And that's just a part of what it was.

[A]

It was a part of what it was. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't know, but there was, like I said, there were so many brushes like that for me where I was just a minute away from making the wrong decision, or a minute where the right decision could have gone wrong, but I made it. I was at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing.

[B]

Wow. Do you believe in God?

[A]

What do you mean by God?

[B]

So I'm assuming you were raised Muslim. Is that a fair assumption?

[A]

Jewish?

[B]

You were raised Jewish?

[A]

I was raised Jewish, yeah.

[B]

You're a Persian Jew?

[A]

Persian Jew, man.

[B]

Oh, I should have known. Oh, this makes so much more sense.

[A]

So I will warn you, I just did a podcast where I mentioned it same way in passing. Lot of anti Semitic Comments?

[B]

So you grew up. You had a bar mitzvah?

[A]

I did, yeah.

[B]

Oh, wow. How was your bar mitzvah? Was it good?

[A]

It was okay. It was good. I got a lot of free shit, so that's cool.

[B]

Your parents didn't, like, ball out for it like you as a regular?

[A]

No, we were poor, man. We, you know, we struggled towards middle class. But I wish it was cool. I went to a few where I was like, holy shit. Like, dudes got money, dudes are rolling. Like, we definitely were not balling, like. Like, a lot of these guys, you know, I didn't even go to a restaurant until I was, like, a real restaurant, until I was like, well off on my own. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Explain this to me again. I had a rich friend who, you know, took me out somewhere, and I was like, okay, so the way this works is they're gonna bring you a menu, and then I can order anything I want and they'll bring it to me. He was like, yeah. What are you talking about? I was like, this shit's crazy.

[B]

Oh, that's funny.

[A]

Yeah, we just ate at home. We had that thing where I was like, I want McDonald's. I was like, I'll make you better than McDonald's at home. Yeah, that will. Eddie Murphy, you know, bit. Wow. So true.

[B]

That's. This is wild. So. So as you grow up, I imagine, again, correct me if I'm wrong, you probably are not as committed to your faith as you're 18 years old making millions of dollars. You're not doing Shabbats, you're not going to temple or synagogue. It's kind of like a thing on the periphery.

[A]

Yeah. I think the way more and more I think about religion and the way I think about God, and I'm no expert to talk about this stuff, but I think people should believe in what serves them. I think there's good stuff about religion, I think, is community, the fact that it brings people together in a community. And I appreciate that about people who have faith in that stuff. I think the stuff I don't like about it is divisiveness. And kind of the core of almost all religions is that our God is the One dude. And then you look back throughout history, through human history, and there's so many different gods and belief in so many different ones, but everybody thinks theirs is like, the dude. And if you don't believe in that, you're going to go to some version of their hell. And I think that's very divisive and problematic. And you look at the history of that and it's brutal. It's like violence enacted on people. Even today we see violence enacted and divisiveness and sort of the split of humanity based on these people or this religion and that religion. And you know, the best I think book I've ever read on this is by Dr. Seuss. Did you ever read Dr. Seuss books?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And he's got this book, I think it's called Butterside Up. And it's about these two people, these two tribes of these creatures, right? And the only difference between them is that half of them like their sandwiches, their toast butter side up and the other one's Butterside Down. But they're crazy. War against each other. Like mad war over this. And that's kind of how I see it. So I don't like it as a, a, as a divisive thing. I think if it's the type of thing that like brings you peace and brings you harmony and brings you belief, it's cool. But I think as long as it's not causing harm to you or other, other people just might. Just my, just my opinion.

[B]

Shout out Dr. Seuss, dude.

[A]

Shout out Dr. SeusS to a German.

[B]

To make a Jew more open minded, right?

[A]

Is he German? I don't know.

[B]

I'm pretty sure. I think his last name was like, like Zeus or something.

[A]

Or Gisel.

[B]

Gisel I believe. Where did Seuss come from? I forget. I read some shit about this.

[A]

It sounds like it could be German. He could be German for sure.

[B]

I thought he was German. I don't know. We gotta look into that. But this is so, so interesting. So I guess, do you believe that there's some type of divine creator? They don't have to be omniscient, they don't have to be omnipotent. They just have to be some type of divine creation. Like do you subscribe to this idea that there's some greater good or greater being that's like looking out for your goodwill.

[A]

So I think there's forces beyond what we know. More and more these days I'm really digging the simulation theory ideas that there's other dimensions and so there's multiple versions of us living in multiple realities. At least I like to think that's something that's cool, if it could be real. But as far as like, you know, is there like some dude in a white robe sitting on top of a hill somewhere, like, you know, is going to judge us when we die? I don't know if I believe in that. But, you know, what I do know is like, it's okay to be just. What do you call, agnostic? Like, I don't know. I mean, if, if, if, if that's a thing. Cool. I mean, like, no one's ever, you know, proven that to me. Do I need to believe in that? You know, you can believe in different gods at different points in your life, right? Like, whatever fucking serves you right. The Vikings had this crazy belief system that we don't even know, like, what they actually believed. But we've got some idea. Through the sagas and through some of the things that we've seen, the people before them believed in something else. And, you know, the Vedics believed in these things. And, you know, there's such a wide range of beliefs, but I think a lot of that stuff has to do with control. And that's something I don't do very.

[B]

Well with you on a personal basis. Just as Shaheen, are you like, oh, yeah, there's probably something up there, or are you just sort of agnostic? Like, maybe it is. I can't say.

[A]

I don't know if there's something up there because I think. I guess if you think about, like, up there, that means it's something that's like.

[B]

It's a bit Abrahamic, like, yeah, like.

[A]

Bigger and higher than us, but something that, like, we're part of. I guess my answer would be maybe. I just don't. I just don't know. You know, if somebody told me, hey, man, I believe in this thing or that thing, I'd be like, cool, man. Like, how's that, What's, What's. How's that going to affect my life? They're like, hey, come join this community. I'd be like, I don't really want to join your community. I'm like, good, where I'm at. But I'll tell you what, when I turn on my, my music and I listen to Marvin Gaye, like, I feel something and it's amazing and I can't explain it, right? When I see a beautiful piece of art or a person who I think, like, just looks really beautiful or is really kind or does a kind act for somebody else, I think, wow, there's something there, right? When I see things in humanity where people do things regardless of how it benefits them, I think that's amazing. And there's something to that, right? We can't explain it, like, why this person did this selfless thing, right? That goes against all the reasons why they would do it. Do you want to Call that God? I don't know. I feel like that's a human construct. Right. I don't want to get too deeply philosophical about that, because it's not what I do. But I guess just the whole concept of organized religion, I think for a lot of people now, doesn't work. This is something that's been going on for a long time where they move from the concept of organized religion to some type of spirituality, and then that turns into an organized religion. Right. I'm sure, you know, people that are like, oh, dude, I'm spiritual. But then all of a sudden you're like, dude, all the shit you do fucking is, like, way worse than, like, if you just signed up for spiritual.

[B]

Meetups three times a week, and I can't hang out with you, and I don't eat these. I'm like, whoa.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

What's going on?

[A]

So, like, the ayahuasca stuff, you know, like, I. I took lots of expeditions to the jungle, and people aren't going to be happy with this, but I, you know, I hung out with indigenous tribes all over the world. I went to the Amazon. I went to Tres Fronteras, which, you know, is the borderlands. You know, we contacted an uncontacted tribe back in the day. I did ayahuasca with them in the jungle, and there was none of that, like, crazy ceremony or like, any of that stuff where you. They weren't calling it oh, the medicine. They weren't, like, doing all this, like, weird shit. They were just taking it, and it was part of their culture.

[B]

What were they doing?

[A]

That's what they did.

[B]

What was it like when you did it? This is probably, what, 90s, 2000?

[A]

Yeah, no, in the early 2000s, I think it was. You know, what were they doing? Yeah, I went on expedition. We met this tribe. Apparently, they were cannibals at some point. And, you know, I had known about ayahuasca. They were like, hey, you know, do you want to try? We're sitting in this, like, hut, you know, they have this cauldron in the middle. They made, like, a little concentrate, and, you know, they. They take it for them. It doesn't seem to have the same effect as it does for foreigners who take it, because I guess they have some kind of exposure to it, and they do it. They sing all night long. It's kind of like a tribal thing. But even when they're not doing ayahuasca, they're still having their tribal times. But I didn't find anything so deeply spiritual about the experience, just me, I just felt like, oh, I was there and I was trying this thing that they take.

[B]

Did you see fractals? You see Gaia?

[A]

No, I can't say I did. I think it was, like, very strong mushrooms. That's what it felt like. But also felt nauseous. I guess. It's different, but I know there's people who have a strong connection to it. I don't want to put people off. I mean, you know, people who have a strong connection to that stuff, and they take it and it impacts and changes their life and whatever, and I think that's all cool. I think, like, if it's something that improves people's lives and they have a real result from it, you know, that's cool, like, for them, you know? But I don't, you know. Like, I know people who are like, man, I take it every weekend, and, you know, they have a whole thing around it, and it, like, makes their identity. Yeah, I'm just like, dude, like, I've seen the, like, actual people who, like, that stuff grows, like, in their backyard, and they make it and take it, and they. That. That's not what they're like.

[B]

Right. So, yeah, it's been sort of commercialized in a. In a different way, I guess. Like, it's sort of been branded for, like, Instagram models to, like, have a spiritual experience.

[A]

Yeah. And look, I think that's okay. I'm nobody to judge. So I think, you know, I think it's okay if that, you know, if that helps you in some way in.

[B]

Your life, but it's a little incompatible with the authentic version that you saw when you were, you know.

[A]

I think so. I think so. I think a lot of those indigenous communities and I've, you know, I've hanged out with them for years and years and years. That would be, like, the fun thing that I would do. I think they're trying to survive, and I think, you know, they. They. They're. It's so far away from them that somebody would be an Instagram model. Right. And go to Fyre Festival and the next weekend come and take, you know, something that they. They're used to taking in, like, their home. I think it's. It's so far away. I think it would just be, like, so out of, like, the scope of things that they would understand. Like, it's just weird. So I. I don't really know, you know.

[B]

When was the first time you went to Burning Man?

[A]

I only went once. I only went one time.

[B]

Really? When was that?

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It was like 2000, 2000 something.

[B]

So it was the early days.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, how was that experience? Was it fun?

[A]

You? Was not my thing. Not really. Why not? You know, I respect people who do that. I mean, I thought it was cool that it was like, people had built this, like, alternative community or whatever. But I don't know. I mean, when I went, I'm like, you know, some rich dude living in la. I was like, dude, I, like, want a hotel room and, like, some good food. Like, I wasn't down for the dirty, camping in the mud and doing that kind of stuff. And again, I didn't really party right. Like, I didn't do drugs. I don't smoke, I don't drink. So I think that might have had something to do with it because I think a lot of people did that stuff.

[B]

Makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. So then after you get out of the Herbal E game and the salvia game around the same time, I'm assuming you do vapes?

[A]

Yeah. We also had an ayahuasca pill that we introduced, but that was a different story.

[B]

How long did you do that for?

[A]

That was part of when we were selling salvia. We also had an ayahuasca pill that we had introduced to the United States. Surprisingly, didn't do very well. Not a lot of people took it.

[B]

Wow. I mean, I guess, yeah, Ayahuasca is still just coming onto the horizon the last like, seven, eight years. So maybe it was ahead of its time.

[A]

Yeah, it was a beautiful package. I was really impressed with it, but it didn't do so well. Yeah, so after that I did vaporizers and then did the vapes and then.

[B]

And that's just nicotine. Or was that for weed as well?

[A]

So I invented the technology for it. And yeah, initially it was smoking cessation product. I was also working with the biggest pharma companies in the world to build it as a smoking cessation technology. But it turned out as weed was slowly becoming legalized, they were heading towards legalization that everybody was using it for cannabis at that time. We couldn't advertise that. That's what it was for. We advertised it as a nicotine or smoking cessation device and put whatever cartridge.

[B]

You want in there.

[A]

Put whatever cartridge you want in there. And. Yeah, and that was really interesting, building that technology when nobody knew what it was. But it also was amazing, too.

[B]

And how long did you do that for?

[A]

That was from 2000 maybe. Actually, it was from like 1999 to 2006.

[B]

I exited that and then sold that.

[A]

To that was a private investor who purchased that company and then it went public.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it still exists today?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

Got acquired by someone?

[A]

I think it got acquired and then I think something happened. Yeah. And I think, you know, the technology shifted to the little cigarette things that everybody uses. Right. And then you had Juul pop up who totally took my playbook and technology that I had built back in the day. Yeah.

[B]

Did they have to pay for the patent to use it?

[A]

I had sold it by then, so I don't know. I don't think they did. Maybe they did. I don't know. I was out. So I got out and I sold and moved on to doing Amazon.

[B]

Interesting random question. I don't even know if this connects at all. In the time that you were like in LA in the late 90s, did you ever link up with the Ed Hardy guys?

[A]

I did go to one of their crazy parties. Okay, so this was a crazy party. I went with a celebrity friend of mine who will remain unnamed.

[B]

What was the other brand that they had? It was Ed Hardy. And I don't remember what it was. It was the motorcycle brand.

[A]

Everybody needs T shirts that look like you have a tattoo. The fuck was that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What the fuck was that? And Ed Hardy billions. He made so much money with that shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. But I was like, why is everybody wearing shirts that looks like they have fucking tattoos?

[B]

Von Dutch.

[A]

Oh, Von Dutch. Yeah.

[B]

Do you remember Von Dutch?

[A]

I remember the brand. Yeah. Might still be around. The both of them might still be around. But I remember I got invited to a party. I went with a celebrity friend of mine and we showed up there. Do you want to hear how crazy this party was? This guy had a boxing ring in the middle. It was in la. I think it was like where the Peterson Auto Museum is now. I don't know what it is. And a helicopter flew in and it was Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson was performing. Michael Jackson left. It was Madonna performing at his birthday party. And he was in the middle of the boxing ring smoking cigars and popping champagne. I think every A list celeb was at this party. And I don't know how much money you need to have to have Michael Jackson and Madonna perform, but it was.

[B]

It's gotta be a favor at that point, you know what I mean?

[A]

I don't even know.

[B]

I don't think you could put a number on it. I think Michael's got to be like, man, I like you and like I with you and like, yeah, I'll do the favor because I'm in town.

[A]

I don't gotta be.

[B]

I don't think there's an. I don't think there's a price, personally.

[A]

Really? Yeah, I don't, I don't know, but I remember it just being like, who the are these people? I was like, who is this guy? You know, but.

[B]

Oh, that's crazy.

[A]

Some guys know how to do it, some guys know how to hack the system, some guys know how to. You know what, however he got to that success, I don't know, I got to see the documentary. But I'd love to learn how you did it.

[B]

So once you get out of the vape game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You sell Exit. What do you do from 2006 to. For the next 20 years? Basically, yeah.

[A]

So I, I started working on a nootropic, a brain supplement because I was really big on nootropics and I was thinking about like, hey, how do you, how do you improve cognitive performance? And I came up with a formula and I was experimenting with it and just about a couple years later I started reading about this guy Bezos and I was like, oh, he's really interesting because most people think he's just a nerd, but he's deeply connected to Silicon Valley venture capital and he's probably one of the smartest guys in the room. And just about then, I think it was probably like 2009. Roughly about then I took a couple years off. And then right about then he opened up the Amazon platform to third party sellers to be able to sell. And he went and allegedly, I think, poached the Walmart guy to do his logistics so that sellers would no longer need to pack and ship their stuff. Amazon would do it all for you in a masterful way, like super gangster. I have a lot of respect for Bezos.

[B]

They talk about this in the everything store. Have you read that book?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like they, they break down the whole thing that they got the Walmart guy to handle all of the supply chain shit with all the warehouses. Yeah. Invents drop shipping, basically. It's brilliant.

[A]

Yeah, it's amazing because before there was ebay and the problem with ebay is it just takes a shit ton of time to pack and ship shit and deal with customer service. And Amazon, once they figured out that, hey, if we can take that friction point away from third party sellers, we could probably have the biggest platform in the world because everyone's going to come to us and I was on the ground floor that I remember back in the day. You could email Jeff. He would get back to you. Like, you could just email jeffmazon.com and he would get back to you. You could call his assistant. Sometimes you could even get him on the phone. So I started selling on Amazon, and I thought, hey, there's a language here of how you do this. And I figured it out. I learned it. I put my product up on there. At that time, it was expensive. It was about $100 a month for a month's supply. And I woke up the next morning, and there was like, 2,000 orders. And I was like, 2,000 times 100. I was like, holy shit, this can't be right. Like, I did no advertise. I just put the shit up on Amazon and I made 200 grand overnight. Like, this can't be right. So I called them. They're like, no, it's right. You gotta. You know, we're gonna ship it. It's great. And I was like, I made 200 grand in, like, a very short period of time. I was like, there's something to this. I stopped everything I was doing and focused exclusively on becoming an Amazon seller.

[B]

What was the product?

[A]

It was a supplement called Accelerol. It was a brain supplement. I don't know if they make it anymore, but I since sold that company. But, yeah, so it was a supplement. It worked really great. In A Funny Piece of Synchronicity, Bradley Cooper, actually, did you ever see the film Limitless? He was at my house in Venice before he made that film. And I remember talking to him about these kinds of things and supplements and stuff.

[B]

Like locking your brain. Yeah.

[A]

Before he became famous. Before he became famous. And then that movie came out. I thought it was a fucking great movie, except for the fact that you become a psychotic killer by taking.

[B]

Well, you gotta put that. You know what I mean? You gotta put the arc. Yeah. Because you can't just be like, yo, he takes his pill, and everything's amazing, you know?

[A]

But I remember, I thought, wow. And then years later, I came up with someone who's like, yeah. And I watched the movie, and everybody was calling the pill the Limitless Pillow. And they were like, you remember when Bradley was at your house? I was like, no. And they showed me a picture. I was like, oh, shit. This is one of those crazy synchronicities that he just happened to be in my house. We just happened to be talking about that stuff. And then they make that movie, which was fucking awesome.

[B]

And it's Not a synchronicity. Maybe it's inspired.

[A]

Maybe it's inspired. No, I don't know about that. I mean he's such a talented actor. I mean such a fucking awesome man. He's the man. So, you know, I think I did that and I learned Amazon and I start teaching other people. I have a course to this day, if anybody wants listen, I'll give it to them for free. So I have a course on Dune, Amazon. I teach people how to do it and build eight figure, nine figure companies and sell them. And you know, it's funny because if you want to start a business nowadays, you know, very little that you can do that has so much upside as Amazon does for such a small investment. Right? So like 10 grand you can start an Amazon company and the potential is that you could make millions with that company. It was probably unlikely that you're going to make millions, but making hundreds of thousands of dollars, very possible.

[B]

People do it every day, 10x fairly easily.

[A]

Very easily. Now if you took that same 10 grand and you opened up a coffee shop, right, how long would it take you to make a million bucks or how long would it take you to make your money? What are the chances that you probably lose that money? You open up a restaurant coin line or like any of that even put.

[B]

Into a vanguard or some other type of, you know. Yeah, secure type of, you know, equity.

[A]

It's, yeah, you get like, what are you going to get? 5%, maybe 10% if you're, if you're a fucking genius. Right. But like, you know, it's, it's not easy. So Amazon is really, you know, is, is really an extraordinary way to make money. And I think that's where Bezos came onto it. And I learned this a long time ago. I think if you are doing something, you can make money by selling a product or a service, but if you do something that helps other people get rich, you've just figured out the key to amplifying wealth. And I think it's not for no reason that he's one of the richest guys in the world, one of the richest legal guys in the world.

[B]

Fair. Good caveat. Yeah, that's really, really interesting. I mean I'm supremely impressed with Bezos. I mean from that book and then another bio that I read, I mean he's just truly a genius guy. And yeah, created the everything store. Created a place where you could buy everything within one day. I mean the thing that I think is the most impressive is the one click buy. That was the Bezos product that like really made me be like, holy shit, that's right. With one click, you can have this product sent to your house. I'm pretty sure Apple licenses it from Bezos.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

I believe so. When you go to Apple and you go to, you know, click with one buy and automatically, automatically buy something without having to put in any extra information. I believe that they own the patent. Someone fact checked me. No one's going to fact check me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah, I'm pretty sure he's the one that is the sole proprietor of that feature.

[A]

Yeah, I talk about this a lot and I actually teach this to my Amazon students. Is one of the most important things about E commerce is friction. One of the most important things about sale is friction. They did this test. It's a really interesting thing that they did. So, you know, with driver's licenses, I forget which state it was. I think it was California, but it might be some other state. And they were having a problem getting people to donate organs, you know, if they die in some like, terrible car accident. So they looked at the questionnaires that people filled out and people had to opt in to donating their organs. So they hired all these like, you know, really intelligent people to sit down and look at it and they say, hey, what if we were to change that, that to opt out? And it changed from something like, and these numbers are probably wrong, but it changed from something like 2% to 98%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just by changing that. So the key to E commerce really for especially for Amazon is reducing friction. And that's what Bezos did really well. One click, right, one click to buy. Returns were another thing we didn't, that didn't exist. But now a nice man and a nice coat will come to your house, pick it up, the money will be in your account before Amazon even gets the product back. It doesn't matter if you bought a laptop and mailed them a shoe. It doesn't matter. They refund everything. And I'm being partly facetious, people, please don't do that. But we have sold things where people have returned things that were not what we sold them. So I think that's a common thing that people do, but it's dishonest. So please don't do that.

[B]

But it's fraud. I think you could get penalized for it.

[A]

Yeah, you should get penalized for it, but they don't care.

[B]

Is the window for Amazon closed?

[A]

No, I think it's open. And there are a lot of other opportunities. Look, I tell people this all the time. I think you gotta have. Especially for people looking to make recurring revenue streams, right? Like, it was funny because for a while after herbally, I was always looking for the next big hit, right? And I did vaporization. That was a big hit. So after that, I was like, okay, what's the next big hit? And I was always doing one thing at a time. And where I really came into myself, where I really understood wealth and understood how to do it, there was two things. Thing number one is there's two parts to wealth. Making it and keeping it. I used to be really, really good at making it. It really shit at keeping it. So I had to fix that. And I learned that the second part of it is that you got a table, right? You got four legs. That table is really strong, right? Solid table. You got three legs, that table's gonna fall on one side. You got two legs. That's a shitty table. And you got one leg. You don't even have a table, right? You got a pyramid or something. So you want to have multiple forms of revenue, but you want to be able to extract yourself and make them as passive as possible. So I tell people, you got to have money in the market. You got to know how to do that. That's probably as passive as you're going to get. Have money in real estate. I tell people this all the time. When you make money, put it into real estate. And there's other ways of doing real estate if you don't have money. There's ways of buying real estate, of being involved in real estate without the traditional ways of doing it. The other thing that I think everybody has to do is to have a e Commerce business. The easiest way to do it is Amazon and soon TikTok shops, which is really coming up, which, you know, I teach people how to do every day. And the final thing is either you have to have some kind of money that gives you stability, right? Or if you don't, you got to have a job until you can work out how you get those other things working out. And once people have stability, once you have stability, that's when you start looking to grow and expand and scale and to make money. But ultimately, you need to have multiple forms of revenue. And I think that things have changed a lot in the last however many years from, like, you know, you just need to have one thing. You just need to have one fucking job. You just need to have one thing that you do to, like, hey, you gotta have multiple streams. And when I started realizing that and I started diversifying what I'm doing. Life became so much easier because you're not as stressed, because one thing could go wrong, two things could go wrong. Rarely do all things go wrong, and usually the things that go wrong are balanced by other things that are going right. And I've just discovered in my life, especially after the crazy life that I've led up until this point, that it's about balance and harmony.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how many kids do you have at this point?

[A]

I got one.

[B]

Just the one.

[A]

Just the one. Yeah. I started late.

[B]

You think more?

[A]

Maybe. I mean, you know, we'll have to see. Yeah.

[B]

Is this. Has having a child. Has it been exciting for you? Do you feel like you're able to fill him up with all of this wisdom and things that you've learned along the way?

[A]

I think you look at your life and you look at the things that really make an impact and the things that really mean something to you, like, the things that are important. And for me, having my kid is like. Like, there's nothing higher than that. And there's no way to understand or realize that until you do it. Because in a lot of ways, it's a selfless act, and it's also a selfish act. But there's nothing that I can get from this world that is greater love than my son, like, my child. And I see that with people all the time. And it's crazy, dude, because I'm like, wow. It's like, oh, yeah, I love my wife. I love my family. But, like, for my kid, I throw myself in front of a truck like nothing matters. And I'm like, why? Like, why. Why is it like that? But it's just, like, you love the guy so much. You love your kids so much that there's, like, no limit to what you would do for them. And you don't have that love for, like, anybody else in your life. And it's. It's. It's extraordinary. Right. It brings, I think, a depth to one's life that I think you don't really get anywhere else.

[B]

The height of human experience, I really think it is.

[A]

I mean, I don't know if I'm an expert at that, but I think definitely I can speak to all the people I know who have kids and the people who I know who don't have kids. And, you know, it's okay, like, if it didn't work for you or you didn't do it or whatever, but there's a depth to, like, having kids, especially if those kids are yours. That I think really impacts your life in a positive way. I think it's like the greatest gift.

[B]

It's interesting listening to you talk about making hundreds of millions of dollars, creating a unicorn company that hit a billion and creating other companies that you've bought and sold and real estate, da da da da da. And that much of it, despite it being very important and fundamental to who you are as an entrepreneur, pales in comparison to the achievement of creating life and having a new human being that's imbued with a soul that'll persist. I don't know, it kind of reinforces a sense of human good where I'm like, oh yeah, these are the things that matter and everything else is important and we should make money, we should try to be successful and provide for our families. But the family is the thing that is paramount.

[A]

That's right, yeah. You were talking about God earlier and I'm like, man, the moment when your child is born and you look into its eyes and it's a piece of you and it's a piece of your wife. But you see this thing that wasn't there before and it's there now. And this is a human that has never done anything wrong to anybody. It has had no opinions. It's a clean slate. And it just looks up at you with these eyes, your eyes. And you feel the love for this person. I don't know how much closer to God you could get. I think that's as close as you can get to the height of human existence. And it's beautiful and it's an amazing, amazing thing. And I think absolutely, it's the main event. I think it's one of the reasons why we're here and there's a reason why that's important. So I think it's great, man.

[B]

Shaheen, I really have appreciated this conversation. This has been really, really fun. Where can the people find you? Where can they read your books? Where can they see your movie? Where can they get your course? Where do you exist on the Internet?

[A]

Yeah. So people can get ahold of me. I'm just gonna share my email with everybody. You guys can email me. I respond to every single email directly. It's going to be dark. Z E-S-S gmail.com that's-A R K Z E-S-S S gmail.com if you're interested in my Amazon course, I'll give you guys the three hour course. It's free. It teaches you how to start an Amazon business. My goal is to inspire people to start Amazon businesses. So if that's something I can help you with. I've made millions of dollars doing it, started many successful companies. Many of my students are doing extremely well on those platforms. So just email me. My book How I Became King of the Thrill Pill Cult is available on Amazon. You can get the audiobook on Audible. The film will be coming out in the next couple years so we're excited to see that. And other than that, shaheenshan.com, i'm sure you'll share the link on there as my personal website and if anybody wants to share any experiences or talk about any of this stuff or if you feel like you need mentorship in business, feel free to reach out to me again at my email. But I'm happy to talk to people all the time. I love meeting new people and seeing people do cool shit man.

[B]

Cool shit with cool people. That's all that matters. Shaheen thank you brother.

[A]

Thanks for having me on.