Most Notorious Mobsters in History

Summary

Camp Gagnon: Episode Summary - "Most Notorious Mobsters in History"

Release Date: December 9, 2024
Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: Anthony DeVito

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Introduction to Notorious Mobsters

In this compelling episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves deep into the underworld of organized crime, exploring the lives and legacies of history's most notorious mobsters. With Anthony DeVito as his co-host, Mark sets the stage for an engaging discussion that intertwines historical facts with personal narratives.

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Anthony DeVito’s Personal Ties to Organized Crime

Anthony DeVito ([03:07]) shares a poignant personal story, revealing his family's clandestine connections to the mob:

B: "My father was a made guy in a family... I didn't know much about him until I was 18."

Growing up, Anthony was shielded from the realities of his father's life in organized crime. His mother deliberately obscured his father's identity, presenting him as a negative example to deter Anthony from seeking a father figure. This secrecy left Anthony constructing an idealized image of his father, a process he began to unravel in his late twenties.

Notable Quote:

B: "So from 0 to 18, you knew virtually nothing." [13:58]

This revelation sets a foundational tone for the episode, highlighting the intricate ties between personal histories and the broader narrative of organized crime.

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John Gotti: The Celebrity Don

Mark and Anthony transition to discussing John Gotti, one of America's most infamous mob bosses. Gotti's rise to power is marked by his flamboyant lifestyle and relentless pursuit of publicity, a stark contrast to his predecessors who preferred to operate from the shadows.

Key Points:

• Ascension to Power: Gotti seized control of the Gambino family by orchestrating the assassination of Paul Castellano, a move that defied Mafia protocol. This bold act catapulted him into the spotlight, earning him the moniker "The Dapper Don."

• Celebrity Lifestyle: Unlike traditional mob leaders, Gotti embraced media attention. Regular appearances at nightclubs, front-page news stories, and public displays of wealth characterized his reign.

• Downfall via RICO: Gotti's high-profile persona attracted unprecedented law enforcement scrutiny. Utilizing the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) Act, prosecutors successfully convicted him on multiple charges, including murder and racketeering.

Notable Quote:

A: "Gotti transformed the role of mafia boss. Unlike his predecessors, he embraced publicity." [34:16]

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Al Capone: From Bootlegging to Tax Evasion

No discussion of mobsters is complete without Al Capone, the quintessential Chicago gangster who became a household name during the Prohibition era.

Key Points:

• Bootlegging Empire: Capone amassed immense wealth through the illegal distribution of alcohol, establishing a grounded criminal empire in Chicago's underbelly.

• Valentine's Day Massacre: In 1929, Capone's gang orchestrated the brutal massacre of seven members of the Northside Gang, a pivotal event cementing his fearsome reputation.

• Downfall through Taxes: Despite his notoriety, Capone's empire crumbled not due to violent confrontations but because of his failure to pay taxes. Convicted of tax evasion, he served time in Alcatraz, where untreated syphilis eventually led to his demise.

Notable Quote:

A: "His own extravagance doomed him. Prison was his downfall." [87:07]

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Frank Costello: The Prime Minister of the Underworld

Frank Costello exemplifies a different facet of mob leadership—one that thrives on political manipulation and legitimate business fronts rather than overt violence.

Key Points:

• Political Influence: Costello built extensive connections with politicians, police officials, and even Supreme Court justices, ensuring his operations remained largely shielded from legal repercussions.

• Legitimate Enterprises: By investing in legitimate businesses and attending charity events, Costello crafted an image of respectability, blurring the lines between legality and criminality.

• Organizational Prowess: Partnering with mobsters like Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky, Costello emphasized efficiency, financial acumen, and strategic alliances over brute force.

Notable Quote:

A: "He reshaped organized crime by making it look legitimate." [103:22]

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Pablo Escobar: The Robin Hood of the Drug World

Shifting focus internationally, Mark and Anthony explore the complex legacy of Pablo Escobar, the leader of the Medellín Cartel in Colombia.

Key Points:

• Cocaine Trafficking: Escobar's cartel controlled a vast majority of the global cocaine market, generating staggering profits estimated at $420 million per week at its peak.

• Public Altruism: Despite his heinous crimes, Escobar earned genuine support among Medellín's impoverished population through extensive public works, including housing developments and medical programs.

• Violent Campaigns: Escobar's war against the Colombian state involved assassination attempts on government officials, bombings, and a barrage of violence to maintain his dominance.

• Downfall and Legacy: Escobar's life ended violently during a botched escape attempt, but his duality as both a benefactor and a ruthless drug lord continues to fuel debates about his legacy.

Notable Quote:

A: "His operations revolutionized cocaine trafficking through verified innovations." [63:28]

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The Luciano-Lansky Partnership: Brain Over Brutality

Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky represent the intellectual evolution of organized crime, prioritizing strategy and financial systems over direct violence.

Key Points:

• Strategic Alliances: Their partnership marked a shift towards structured, business-like operations within organized crime, laying the groundwork for modern Mafia structures.

• Financial Innovations: Lansky pioneered money laundering techniques and established offshore banking operations, enhancing the financial stability and reach of their enterprises.

• The Commission: Luciano played a pivotal role in forming The Commission, an advisory body composed of leaders from the five major New York families, instituting rules to minimize internal conflicts and maintain order.

Notable Quote:

A: "Their partnership proved that the future of crime lay in brains over brutality." [111:24]

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Ranking the Most Notorious Mobsters

In an intriguing segment, Mark and Anthony engage in ranking the discussed mobsters based on their influence, legacy, and notoriousness.

Top Rankings:

1. Frank Costello: For his profound political influence and ability to legitimize organized crime.
2. Pablo Escobar: Due to his global impact on the cocaine trade and complex legacy of violence and philanthropy.
3. Al Capone: As a symbol of Prohibition-era bootlegging and his dramatic downfall.
4. Lucky Luciano: For restructuring the Mafia and establishing enduring organizational frameworks.
5. John Gotti: Because of his high-profile persona and the subsequent use of the RICO Act to dismantle his empire.

Special Mention:

A: "I might put Luigi Mangione at number one." [122:05]

While Luigi Mangione's story is touched upon amidst other discussions, his exact placement showcases the personal connection and evolving narrative within the episode.

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Concluding Insights: The Duality of Mobsters

Throughout the episode, the hosts emphasize the complex duality of mobsters—simultaneously feared criminals and admired figures within their communities. This duality raises questions about morality, legacy, and the humanization of individuals involved in organized crime.

Final Reflections:

B: "It's the brotherhood. It's the friends you make along the way." [120:03]

Mark and Anthony conclude by acknowledging that beneath the notorious façades lies intricate human relationships and personal motivations, painting a nuanced picture of these historical figures.

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Notable Quotes from the Episode

• A: "John Gotti transformed the role of mafia boss. Unlike his predecessors, he embraced publicity." [34:16]
• B: "So from 0 to 18, you knew virtually nothing." [13:58]
• A: "Gotti's high-profile lifestyle attracted unprecedented law enforcement attention." [34:56]
• B: "I'm a prisoner of the audience, okay?" [00:39]
• A: "Your boy crazy, man." [72:58]

These quotes encapsulate the essence of the discussions, highlighting both the personal and historical aspects of organized crime.

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Closing Remarks

Camp Gagnon successfully intertwines historical analysis with personal storytelling, offering listeners a comprehensive look into the lives of some of history's most infamous mobsters. By blending factual recounting with engaging dialogue, Mark Gagnon and Anthony DeVito create a narrative that is both informative and deeply personal, inviting listeners to ponder the intricate balance between power, legacy, and humanity within the realm of organized crime.

Transcript

[A]

Good morning. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to camp. This is the. This is the place and the tent where I explain the most fascinating and interesting topics from around the planet to my dumbest friends. And. Oh, boy, we got a real ringer in here today. Let's go.

[B]

Wow. Do we have a real fucking idiot here.

[A]

Yeah. No, I mean, look, he's Italian. He took eight years to graduate college, all right? But he's brilliantly funny, and he's very charming, very kind. It's Anthony DeVito, ladies and gentlemen. Come on. Yeah. Drop some campfires in the comments.

[B]

Thank you, guys.

[A]

Yeah, we got Christos clapping campers on the side. Thank you, Christos, as always. It's F. Miles. All right. I would say the full word, but I think we're too early in the episode and we're gonna get pulled off. But, yeah, just drop an F. Miles in the chat. Miles is my dear friend from college whom I love very much. Gotcha. That came on and did a couple episodes, and the audience hated him. So now, look, I'm. I'm just a prisoner of the audience, okay? If they hate my best friend, so be it. So do I.

[B]

But also, it's like, what better for Miles, do you know what I mean? To have a place to be a villain. To have a place to be your worst self. Yeah. Yeah. And to do it with your best friend is great.

[A]

Yeah. I could think of one thing better, which is just being loved by everyone. Yeah. Sort of like, of course, unadulterated sort of admiration, I think would be nice.

[B]

But if it goes the other way, it's not a bad place to live. The middle ground sucks.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

The middle ground of just like. Okay, that was kind of just whoever he was.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it stokes so much anger.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Or obviously, you want love. That's the goal. But if you're not really a bad person.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

To kind of put on the joker suit. That's fun. It is nice, and nobody gets hurt.

[A]

It is nice.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

It is nice. But thank you guys so much for watching. Appreciate y'all, as always. This is camp. I got some merch, by the way. Brand new, hot off the press. Okay, I'll show you the back before we go to a break, but I'm not gonna turn around right now because I actually injured my back deadlifting just a moment ago. Also, as always, we have our shelf here. If anyone would like to send anything in, we got a PO Box that's gonna be dropping very soon. Please. Sen in your TCHOTCHKES all right, we got a sick little parrot. No idea where this is from. Made in 1999, but, yeah, drop something in and we'll put it on the set. Something that you contribute, don't make it racist or historically insensitive. Okay. Because that would be. That would be hurtful because I would have to put it up, and I wouldn't want to.

[B]

Can't imagine anything sadder than sending your trinket and having it returned back in the mail.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. Today we have an amazing topic. We have an excellent one, and there's no one better to discuss it with me. We're talking about the most interesting and notorious mobster in history. Okay. I mean, we're talking about everyone from Al Capone to Whitey Bulger to. I mean, basically everyone in between. I mean, we got a bunch of really interesting guys. We're going to be dropping into Lucky Luciano, Griselda Blanco, Warren Buffet. Warren Buffett. Yeah, exactly. You heard me.

[B]

You heard me, America.

[A]

Yeah. Didn't know we had a socialist on the pod. John Gotti, the ledge, for sure. Yeah. I mean, we're gonna be going through everybody. And I specifically wanted to speak with you, Mr. DeVito.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because you have a very interesting and sordid history with organized crime.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Is this true? I always do this, like.

[B]

It's like a Barbara Walters turning time moment. Wow. We've been bullshitting for, like, 20 minutes before the show.

[A]

Show. Tell me, Anthony, did you assassinate that CEO?

[B]

Is that. I cannot speak on that. I just know that the country is rooting for me, and I thank. I' hearing your applause, and it's helping me keep going.

[A]

It is nice, actually, on that point, to see gun violence bring people together.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know what I mean? There's something beautiful. Typically, when there's an act of sort of senseless violence with a weapon, people sort of, you know, get divided and people say, you know what? This is bad. And let me just say on the record, you know, it's very sad to see someone pass away. This is a guy with a family. Okay. With that being said, a lot of people are happy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a wild.

[B]

It's a very wild moment in the country. And really, you know, obviously, it gives you a sense of like, hey, man, there is a unifying. Like, this is weirdly brought the nation together. Yeah. Everyone can be like, yeah, we do not like insurance CEOs to this point. It is. It is. It is fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. Did you see the lookalike contest?

[B]

No. That's hilarious.

[A]

They did A lookalike contest at Washington Square Park.

[B]

Timothy Chalamet goes after that one, too.

[A]

Well, he looked like Timothee Chalamet. I was like, did Chalamet work? Where was he? Can we get a receipt?

[B]

He's like, are we doing it again? They're like, not now, Chalamet. Not now.

[A]

What's his alibi? Seems a little suspect.

[B]

What? All right, let's just. We'll quickly do the scenario. It's Timothy Chalamet. What do you think happens?

[A]

I mean, the world is never the same. Like, that is like the Franz Ferdinand moment. You know what I mean? That, like, sets the course of history into just a different direction.

[B]

Yeah. You think it's John Wilkes Booth, but at a higher level.

[A]

Oh, it really would be, actually, if you really think about it. John Wilkes Booth, a very prominent actor that killed Abraham Lincoln.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That is crazy. It's actually remarkable how famous he was. John Wilkes Booth.

[B]

I did not. I watched the. What's it called? It wasn't called Abraham, whatever it is on Apple.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

It was like a Lincoln show.

[A]

Yeah. That's a Jewish historical film, I'm pretty sure.

[B]

Yeah. Different.

[A]

You watch Abraham, you're like, this is old somehow.

[B]

John Wilkes Booth is in this one, too. It was everywhere. But, Yeah. I did not realize how popular of an actor that he was.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I thought. Yeah, he was popping.

[A]

He was popping. And his brother was also very successful. I believe Edwin Booth was his name. And he actually has a theater and a building still named after him in Manhattan, right? Yeah, the Booth Theater.

[B]

It's crazy, man. It'd be like if the Wayans brothers shot Biden.

[A]

That would be awesome, dude. White Chicks. But they killed Biden.

[B]

All of a sudden, people are rewatching White Chicks as, like, a subversive political movie.

[A]

Like, dude, the signs were there all the time. That's crazy. Yeah. It really is wild. If the Wayne's Brothers just. But here's what's interesting, actually, because one of them, Edwin, was like, a hardcore unionist.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He was like. He disavowed his brother. He was like, he's gone off the deep end. And so he, like, cut ties and was like, I don't even know this man anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And old John Wilkes, he just went crazy.

[B]

I bet, too. Edwin, they were really like, hey, man, now we want to make a movie about John Wilkes. And, like, who better to play him but you? I would imagine that's, like, a part of it afterwards.

[A]

He did end up going on to continue acting after his brother assassinated Lincoln.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

And there was an assassination attempt on him while he was on stage, like, two years later. This is just, like, the early history of America. Everyone's just shooting each other.

[B]

Totally, man.

[A]

It's just bullets flying. Yeah. It's crazy.

[B]

And now it's so different.

[A]

Exactly. Now it's safe. As long as you're not a billionaire or a child.

[B]

Child. Attending school, which I'm neither.

[A]

So I don't care.

[B]

Yeah, we're good.

[A]

This is also one of the big reasons why I don't want to be a billionaire, because, you know, which. I've considered doing it before.

[B]

Yeah. You okay? Good. Yeah.

[A]

But it's like. It's just not worth it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, having this target on your back, literally, it's like, I just don't want to deal with the headache.

[B]

Yeah. I would go as far as say it's not even worth it having, like, 10 grand in your checking account. And that's why I don't do it.

[A]

You see? This is why I fuck with you. You know what I mean? You and I, we see eye to eye on this.

[B]

Yeah. The minute they see you be able to take out a city bike and ride it, they'd be like, oh, my God, we got to get this guy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's a tough look, asking for a Venmo before you take the city bike. You're like, yo, can you spot me? I'm just trying to get to the story, okay? I'm in a bad spot, Right?

[B]

I'm trying to take an open air Uber. And if you could help me, please.

[A]

Yeah. But, yeah, it is a wild thing. John Wilkes Booth. Another final history fact, okay? Because that's not what this show is about. We're talking about the mob, not American, not presidential history. John Wilkes Booth's dad was named Brutus. Named after the guy that killed Julius Caesar.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

So he's named after the guy that kills the leader in some sort of, like, coup d'etat, like, revolution type thing, and his son ends up actually killing the leader of the country. Yeah. Junius Brutus. Which is. Junius Brutus is the actual name of Brutus. A2 brutus from.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Also the gentleman in the Senate that killed old Caesar. Crazy.

[B]

That is crazy.

[A]

There's a weird little quirk of history.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. I guess he was just destined for this the whole time.

[A]

Yeah. In a certain way, you got to be like, look, man, I don't even know if it's your Fault. I mean, like, if Destiny says, hey, you got to go, you know, I.

[B]

Think now you look at him differently. I think if Booth does what he does now, people would take these things into consideration. Yeah, it is. There'd be a whole conversation about free will.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It wouldn't be about, you know, everything else.

[A]

See, as we were saying, you can. You can will what you want, but you can't will what you will, or whatever Schopenhauer said. I still think I got that quote messed up.

[B]

Anyway, here's the thing. I believe it, and I'll never fact check it. And here's the other thing. I'm going to run with that. When I get out of here, I'm going to be like, did you know what Oppenheimer said? Not only did he do. He did crazy bomb stuff, he also said a lot of smart shit, too.

[A]

But, yeah, let's talk about the mob. And you specifically, I would love to know, sort of your relationship.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, in what way are you affiliated?

[B]

I am not affiliated. I know you would take one look at me and go, this guy.

[A]

No. You could be.

[B]

Yeah, I would be so undercover. I would be so. Such a sly. Like, that is ridiculous. But, no, my father was a made guy in a family. He died when I was seven months old. And I slowly. I didn't know about this. I Learned first at 18, I'll tell you. I was playing basketball, just pickup game out on the court. There was a guy there. And, you know, pickup basketball? Like, everyone kind of knows each other. So, like, you know, so any new person, you're like, oh, who are they? So there's a guy there, looked like, I don't know, solid rebounder, good jumper, similar eyebrows. And I was like, weird. And then afterwards, he was like, oh, hey, I'm your cousin from your father's side.

[A]

What?

[B]

And then.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I really didn't know much about my dad. My mom was really good about, like, sort of just covering up details. She was like. She kind of ran like a smear campaign against dads in general. So I would never kind of get curious or long for one. So, like, we would go to. This is a real thing. We would go to Toys R Us, and she would just point out bad dads. And she would be like, aren't you glad you don't have one of those? And I'd be like, yeah, that sounds pretty good. So I never really asked about it.

[A]

What does it mean to point out a bad dad?

[B]

So, like, so. I mean, this is North Jersey, too, so it's a little bit easier. Bad dads are just running amok.

[A]

And this is the age that's fair.

[B]

You want to see a bad dad in New Jersey, go to Toys R.

[A]

Us on a Saturday.

[B]

So we would go. We would go under the guise of getting me GI Joes or whatever. And then the minute she saw, like, a dad being mean to one of their kids, she would be like, hey, look at that. And she'd be like, oh, it's pretty good. You don't have one of those. And I'd be like, yeah, this is pretty good. So, like, really, really smart tactical move, right? So I never really ask about him. And I can always sense there's like a sadness to her when sort of like, she, you know, the subject gets mentioned and like, there's just a weirdness surrounding it. And my mom is a good mom. I don't ever wanna see her sad. So then I come home after the basketball game. I'm like, hey, I met my cousin from my dad's side. And then she goes, I need you to sit down for this. I need to tell you about your dad. And then proceeds to tell me he was, you know, a made guy in a family. And I don't really know like, anything about it. Like, as a kid, I wasn't allowed to watch the Godfather because my mom. There's another thing she did. My mom said that movie maintains harmful stereotypes about Italian kids.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes, man. So I. Anthony DeVito from Northern New Jersey is like, those stereotypes, like, they're, you know, you can't watch this movie. Like, you know, so. So I am completely sheltered from it. And then she tells me, but she doesn't tell me everything. She kind of just gives me like, you know, she's. And this is all true. You know what I mean? He was, you know, he was a conflicted person. He was this good guy. He did some bad things, doesn't give me the details about it. And then I. My ex girlfriend, when I was 30, we got. And this is. On my end. This is a bad move by me. I'm very aware. So she gives me an ultimatum. Cause we've been dating for like three years. And she was like, hey, like, we either like move in or we gotta break up. So. And I never. My mom made me keep it a secret about my father. Just for safety purposes. Just for, like, she doesn't want people looking at me differently. All kinds of reasons, right? And this is my mom. She's a good mom. I'll abide by her wishes. But with her, I Was like, I told her about my dad as like a sort of a bargaining chip of commitment, which is admittedly so a horrible move.

[A]

It's very mob esque. You know, I'm gonna give you some information and you just stick around. It's like, where'd you learn this from?

[B]

You couldn't even watch the gosp.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So, yeah, maybe I would be all right at this point.

[A]

You'd be amazing.

[B]

So, man, I just have these instincts. So then she. I was like, just, you know, don't look him up. Like, it, you know, it means a lot to me. It means a lot to my mom. And then I go to bed, she looks him up. So then before she leaves for work, she was like, you should look for yourself. And then when I do, that's when I sort of find out. Like, the first thing I saw was like a New York Times headline and was like, pretty much the headline was like, you know, noted criminal found in the trunk of a car. And I was like, that's my dad. What the hell? And then it was like, sort of the legacy of some of his crimes. And it was like, that was the moment where it became, like, very real. Like, I think up until that moment, I knew I wasn't necessarily proud of it, but I thought it was like, here's like, an interesting thing about me that I can't tell anyone. Like, I'm sure, like, Batman feels this way to some degree. You know what I mean? Like, other side of the coin, but, you know, you kind of get it. But then that was the moment for me when I was like, oh, these were the stakes of it. And that's when, like, I kind of had, like, there was, like, shame attached to it. Oh, wow.

[A]

So from, like, the ages of, like, playing basketball in the park, which is like, what, 14?

[B]

18.

[A]

18. Okay. So from 0 to 18, you knew virtually nothing.

[B]

Virtually nothing. He existed as just like, whatever my imagination could conjure. So, like, that is interesting. Like, I don't know if you grew up with both parents. Yeah, yeah. So when you don't have one, and especially when you know nothing about one and they're gone, you get to invent whoever they were. So you kind of create this superhero in your head. So that's what I had done with him. He kind of just became this sort of weird guiding voice in my head that I never met, but I could create whoever he was.

[A]

Wow. Do you have siblings?

[B]

No, I'm an only child.

[A]

Right. So the COVID up of the truth was probably a little easier.

[B]

A little Easier. You just have one kid to lie to.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And the rest of my mom's side of the family knew and they were also like, we don't want him to know. We want to protect Anthony from whatever reality. We just don't want to burden him with sort of a complicated reality, which is a lot to take for a child, like at 30 even. It was like I really couldn't fully reconcile it until I started doing the show, to be honest with you. But like, as a child, you know, because as a child everything's so binary, you know, it's like, you know, how can I. I love Hulk Hogan. How can I justify also liking my dad? You know what I mean?

[A]

Right.

[B]

It kind of. The world's a little different now with anti heroes and stuff like that, but like back for sure. I wouldn't have been able to sort of like decipher the nuances of it.

[A]

Yeah. And when you say show for anyone listening, you were doing a show specifically on this topic.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing it again Thursday, 9:30 at Second City. There are no tickets sold. Yeah. So if we get 10 people, I.

[A]

Can do this thing.

[B]

So if you're out there, if we can get. I'm calling them the miracle 10 and if we can get them, it'll be great. But anyway. Yes. So 0 to 18.

[A]

Whenever you asked your mom, hey, what is my. What was dad like? Like, would she show you pictures or was it sort of just like completely disconnected?

[B]

It was disconnected, but I could tell there was like a. She's a pretty light hearted person. And there was a seriousness that overtook her when he was brought up. So it was just like a topic that I was like, I don't want to pry too much about this because I also, my mom was very good about keeping up appearances and like, I never really saw her sad. So it was so obvious when she was. And this was kind of the only time when she was. So it was like I was just like, just give her this. You know what I mean? Like she gives you a lot. Just give her this. And like that's that.

[A]

And you were making that calculation as like a 12 year old.

[B]

Yeah, well, I was, I was an only child and it was all adults. So in my house it was me, my mom, my grandmother, my great grandmother and my aunt. So it was like I was a little bit emotionally precocious. Like, whereas, like I was surrounded by adults so I could kind of pick up on like cues from them a little.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But no pictures. She never really showed me pictures. She would just Be like, we don't have any, or whatever. And I just took it at face value.

[A]

So when a friend asked you when you're like, 12, 13, like, oh, yeah, like, where's your dad? You'd just be like, oh, he passed away, and leave it at that.

[B]

She told me he died a car accident. Drunk driver. So if anything, I was like, very, like, hyper vigilant about drunk drivers. Whoa. And then the reality is, like, well, it isn't even so much that she lied when she said car accident. It was just like, well, that's the.

[A]

Wrong end of the car.

[B]

Car on purpose.

[A]

Oh, that's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's also interesting to think, like, the psychological effect of how you start to see the world based off of the story you were told. You know what I mean? Like, you were concerned about Italian stereotypes and drunk driving as a boy, despite the fact that, like, those things are not really a part of your story, despite, you know, they were sort of fabricated.

[B]

Totally, man.

[A]

Oh, that's fascinating.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't even know this is, you know, until we're talking right now. It's like, yeah, I didn't drink until I was like, 21. And like, that's probably why, right? Because there was nothing else really holding me back. Crazy to have an epiphany, you know, surrounded by a cool Applebee's. To be fair, I said that to Christos before and it got a laugh. So I am recycling that.

[A]

But no, there's flair in here. That is a fact.

[B]

It's pretty awesome.

[A]

We need margaritas, dude. That's what we need. We need bottomless margs right now.

[B]

You need a server. Yeah, exactly. But wow. But yeah, and in terms of, like. So that's what I would tell people. There were no pictures. And then, yeah, I never really pried because of that.

[A]

So then your mom tells you at 18, and then from 18 to 30, you still sort of don't acknowledge it.

[B]

I don't acknowledge it, but if you got me drunk enough, I would say it. Like, I used to, like, in my early 20s, I lived in Hawaii and I lived. I mean, this is kind of a side point, but I lived in the woods. I think that's why the idea of doing the show, I was like, yeah, camp, great. But I lived in the woods with these. With these four dudes or three dudes. I was the fourth. And like, when you are homeless with people, it's very intimate bond you have with them. So we would just get hammered at this bar every night. And I remember one night I think they were the first people I told outside of maybe my college girlfriend. I don't even remember if I told her, to be honest. But I remember I had, I don't know, six or seven beers and was like, hey, wanna know a crazy thing? And then like. But that's the only attachment I had to. It was.

[A]

Does it create, like, an emotional problem for you? Because this is something that you are, like, sort of emotionally ambiguous, trying to process feeling like, oh, I've been lied to. But also, I like my dad as the person I've created. But also, you know, maybe he did some bad things. Like, you're having this sort of ambivalence, but at the same time telling people. And I'm sure everyone goes, dude, that's awesome.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So there's probably a mismatch in your brain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is that like?

[B]

Cause like, I didn't know the gruesome details. I just knew that he had died and my mom was sad about it. So there were. I knew there were stakes there. I didn't know the exacts of the stakes. So it wasn't. But there was. I think there was like, a small part of me that every time someone was like, that's so cool. There was a part of me that felt a little bit of shame because of that. Because I knew there was, like, probably some awful reality to go with that. But since people reacted so positive and were so curious about it, I was like, yeah, I guess it is kind of cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And only. Yeah. At 30, when I found out, like, more of the details and like, you know, like more of the uncomfortable details in terms of, like, he killed people, you know what I mean? Like, those kinds of things. It was hard to reconcile with that also too, at 30, like, you have. You're a person now, you know what I mean? And I'm very much this, like, soft, like, take a picture of a tree guy, you know, Like, I've told people extension about, like, my regard for poetry, you know, so it's like I'm this guy who now has to deal with, like, I wouldn't hurt a fly. And now I have to deal with a father who killed people. And, you know, I'm also someone who's like, very enthusiastic about being alive. So it's like the fact that, like, I don't know the circumstances, but that he took that gift away from people was, you know, was not easy for me to sort of like, wrap my head around.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's when I, like, that's when I went inward with it. And, like, you know, there was a lot of shame attached to it.

[A]

So then how do you start uncovering the details? Like, what is that journey?

[B]

Yeah, some are my mom's. I mean, my mom is. She's up in age, so, like. And she's blocked out a lot of it. Cause it's, like, real trauma when you really get to know her story. You're like, jesus Christ.

[A]

I couldn't imagine.

[B]

It's so. Like, she'll. But she'll spill out, like, details, like here and there, and you're just, like, offhandedly. You know what I mean? Like, you know, we're driving once, and she was like, you kind of just for the scope of it, like, we're driving. I think there was like. We were just driving. There was a new strip mall or whatever. And she was like. She was like, oh, you know, John Gotti was at your christening. And I was like, what?

[A]

What?

[B]

And then she was like, oh, is that a new Old Navy? Like, she just sort of. Like, she just sort of implants these, like, whoa. And then there's another time we were just. I got something out of. You know, she's an apartment in Jersey. Got something out of the kitchen cabinet. And she was like, oh, you know what's funny? She was like, your dad actually kept a secret cabinet in the kitchen where he would hide, you know, guns and money and stuff like that. And I was like, okay. And then she was like, your dad was kind of funny. Like you. He. She would always joke how the carpenter wasn't around anymore. And I was like, yeah, that's not really a joke. If, like, it could be a reality.

[A]

I mean, that is kind of terrifying. At what point is she telling you this? Is it post 30? Like, when you get post dirty?

[B]

This is the past couple years when I start doing the show. And she starts, like, it's been a lot for her. She's processing now more of what she never has. So it's like, these developments have been in the last couple years.

[A]

I mean, whoa.

[B]

Yeah. Up until then, it was just whatever I had in this newspaper headline, and that was. Print is the most difficult thing because there's no ambiguity. There's no moments to finesse his character. It's just like, these are the facts. So there's no way to sort of construct a narrative with, like. It's just this.

[A]

So did you speak with people that knew him that weren't related to you? Like, at any point, did you speak with other folks that were organized in the family, quote, unquote?

[B]

No, just because, I mean, I've had a cousin reach out to me and she's not just as like, hey, I see you're doing the show. Like, very encouraging. Just sort of like, you know, I remember when this had to be told to me about your father. So it's like, whatever this journey is for you, like, you know, that's applauded.

[A]

And do you know what his role was within the family?

[B]

I mean, I know I don't know too much of, like, the hierarchical stuff, but, like, I know he was a soldier. And then I think when he went to. He went to prison for five years, and when he got out nine months later, I was born. And I think after he got out of prison is when he was made.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then what was his ultimately his ending? Like, what came of him and how did he end up in a car?

[B]

There was, I believe it was over. It was over money. It was over some kind of owed money. And I mean, that seems to be. And I'm no expert on this subject, this is a personal story for me. And there's gonna be other people who. It's funny when talking about this because. Because of how many, like, ex, you know, organized crime individuals do podcasts and stuff like that. Like, they know way more than I do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's like. But it does seem to be, like, you know, obviously bumping off the wrong guy and. Or just like, where did the money go? And especially when you're doing a job that's so anxiety inducing like that it's so high stakes to blow off steam. That's why a lot of them are gamblers, just because it's like, that's the only thing that sort of like, fulfills the rush and like, that's how they come down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, yeah, I think there was some gambling involved.

[A]

Oh, interesting. I've never actually looked at it that way, that gambling is a way to come down.

[B]

Yeah. And this is all secondhand. This is me watching a bunch of, like, interviews of them and stuff like that just to, like, sort of generate, like, how to be in their heads for the sake of the show and making it as honest and like, sort of as possible. And they've talked about that. I've heard multiple of them talk about, like, how gambling is used as, like, a release mechanism.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah. I wonder if there's a sense you can, like, control it. Like it's within sort of, like, obviously there's a random chance, but you can sort of control, like, the, you know, how much you're Gonna buy in, like the stakes of things. Like if you can win, there's like a big rush and if you lose, there's a chance you get it back.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I've seen similar things of like people that have really high stakes, like intense careers, really enjoy gambling. And in my mind, as someone that never really enjoyed going to a casin, like to play or whatever, thinking about that, like, oh, why would you? Because to me that's anxiety inducing. Of course, like playing a game and losing. Of course, like playing blackjack and being like, oh, damn, like I never got the rush from it. So thinking about someone like, oh, I have a super high stakes career and I'm going to let off steam by continuing to do something really stressful.

[B]

Yeah. It's almost like how like Wall street bankers or whatever, they're like, oh, I can only come from getting candle wax stripped on my balls or whatever that I get.

[A]

Yeah, I understand that. I'm like all.

[B]

You're like, no, that's any tax break.

[A]

Yeah, I'm listening.

[B]

But yeah, I think when you're like, when you're playing on 10, the release goes along with the scale that you're living life at in a weird way.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah, it's that I was taken aback by that too. Of like, wow, that's how you guys come down. That'd be the most stressful thing that I do.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean that's. That's wild. That's your. That's your pops. You went through all this.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And is there still more that you're uncovering now? Like as we sit here today, are you still like finding newspaper clippings?

[B]

Well, I'm not finding any more newspaper clippings, but I am. There is a book that's been written that mentions my family. So I started reading that book like last summer. And that has been eye opening that like they go into more details. And then like that was when I heard his. Read his voice rather. Cause like my whole life I've been imagining what he sounded like. But then like, you know, I. The first time I read his voice was like him saying, that's a lot of blood. I know. And like removed, you go, okay, it's just entertainment. But when you're like, that's my father saying that, it's tough, man.

[A]

That's unsettling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also the amount of blood for you to say that versus him saying that is such a different amount.

[B]

That's a really good point. That's a really, really good point.

[A]

Like, you were, like, pulled off a cuticle, and you're like, that's a lot of blood. That's when I would say, this is a blood, man. He's in the blood game for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

I know. Yeah, man.

[A]

Jeez.

[B]

So then. And then it's also balancing that with, like, who he is as a human and who he was to my mom. And, like, she'll even tell me these, like, you know, sort of, like, such a reverence for him in the way that, like, you know. Cause my. You know, my mom is one of four sisters, and my aunt being the youngest, my dad used to. You know, she couldn't sleep at night cause of anxiety. He would just drive over and read her bedtime stories until she passed out. So he was this, like, loving, gentle person that then had this other half to him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, you know, and you want to give someone their due diligence on both fronts, especially as, like, someone who's telling not your story, but their story and be like, here's the whole of a person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. You know, this is a man who loved my mom, who gave me life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you're like, I have to find the good in him.

[A]

Yeah. Who your mom also loved. Ostensibly. Right. Like, and that is partially you. Yeah, exactly. That is a brain fuck. That's wild.

[B]

Yeah. So I can't just write him off as, like, you know, this bad guy. And then I also just can't be like, he's this great guy, you know? So it's like.

[A]

Unfortunately, we have to use nuance, which is annoying. I prefer just to live in a binary.

[B]

I would, man.

[A]

Where things are good or they're bad.

[B]

Fifty years ago, this show would have been so easy to do.

[A]

He's obviously great. Moving on. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's the American dream.

[A]

What are you people not seeing?

[B]

They had nothing. They built their way. Exactly. I know. Oh, that's the. Yeah. God.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, we have some other mobsters to discuss.

[B]

Please.

[A]

And as we go, I would implore you to jump in and feel free to. Oh, my. I'm getting a phone call. Everyone's blowing me up right now. Sorry, people.

[B]

No good. Okay, so it's the FBI.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. They got us. They freaking got us. All right, so we're gonna go through just some other. Some other mob family members and let me just put some things out here. Okay. We might be making some jokes. These are all allegedly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think. I mean, right, Like. Yeah.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

I'm still. This is how much of a scaredy cat I am, of course. Even talking about, like, Al Capone. This is a guy that was, like, prominent in, like, the 20s.

[B]

Exactly. Man. I'm so. I'm so soft and a weakling. I'm like, his ghost is gonna be. His ghost will kill me for sure.

[A]

I'm not even bringing it up. So this is all allegedly, of course, and anyone that has family like you that might be connected to any of these folks that we talk about, all love and respect. And.

[B]

Yeah, we'll do black and white photos only, just to be safe.

[A]

Ex. Oh, interesting. All right. So you want to talk about John Gotti?

[B]

Sure, man.

[A]

I mean, what an interesting place to start. This was a gentleman who was allegedly.

[B]

I mean, I know him as Uncle John, but sure, go ahead.

[A]

Allegedly at your christening. Born in 1940 in the South Bronx, Gotti's path to organized crime began in the streets. By 16, he was leading a gang called the Fulton Rockaway Boys.

[B]

I love the old New York. You know how tough you really have to be to be in a song and dance gang.

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

And it's one thing to be in the clips. Bloods, Pryrus, whatever, but to be in.

[A]

The Fulton Rockaway Boys, oh, that's amazing.

[B]

Still stoke fear. Wow, are you tough.

[A]

I also love that they hyphenated it like that. There was an internal disagreement, like a divorced couple. You know what I mean? They're like, we're the Fulton Boys. They're like, well, hang well, some of us. Tony and Gianni, they're from Rockaway.

[B]

Why can't we be the Rockaway Men? They're like, it doesn't sound right.

[A]

It doesn't even make sense.

[B]

That is always my favorite part. And this is pivoting even more. It's like any, like, any, you know, violent group, whatever it is. Even like, isis, like, you know, it's like, well, they gotta decide on a flag. You know what I mean? Like. Oh, I think. I think that's one of Michelle's jokes, actually. My bad, Michelle.

[A]

Shout out to her. Let's do the whole.

[B]

That's a great joke, man. Watch her special. She's one of the best.

[A]

But it is hilarious. Like, the internal bureaucracy of any of these things.

[B]

So funny to me. Like, they have an HR department. It's just like, hey, we don't call them that anymore. All right. Yeah.

[A]

The Rockaway Boys. Shout out to them Fulton Rockaway Boys. We need to bring them back. Police records show multiple arrests throughout his youth, mostly for petty theft and street fighting. His connection to the Gambino family began through Carmine Fatico. That crew in the 1960s. Gotti started as a soldier running hijacking operations at Kennedy Airport. FBI surveillance from this period shows him gradually rising through the ranks, building a reputation for both violence and earning ability. Wow. Hijacking operations at Kennedy Airport. What does that even mean?

[B]

Man, Crazy. It's just the diligence as a comedian. If you made me go to Kennedy every weekend to go on the road, I would stop being a comedian. So, like, it really shows you the ambition of this.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I could never be the mob. They'd be like. I'd be like, can I do a hijacking at LaGuardia? Like, it's, like, so much closer to my place. Like, I don't want to.

[B]

They would be like, mark is great, but he complains all the time. They don't have seltzer.

[A]

Yeah, heaven forbid. I gotta go to Newark. Work.

[B]

Oh, God, look at these guys, the Fulton Boys.

[A]

This. This is the Fulton Boys. Oh, wow. I mean, they look just so handsome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A bunch of lookers.

[A]

Oh, they don't even know there's a cop in their crew.

[B]

They have no idea that's how dangerous they are. They're like, we keep a cop in the crew.

[A]

I mean, this is how undercovers used to dress. Like, they just didn't even know. They'd be like, wow.

[B]

Build the hat.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

They kind of look like the Strokes.

[A]

Yeah, a little bit. Right? It looked like an awesome emo.

[B]

Emo indie last night.

[A]

That song is a banger, by the way.

[B]

That's a great song. Oh, yeah, man.

[A]

I mean. Yeah, they do look very. I mean, just. I love. I mean, that's like an old millennium bit, but, like, I love that. Like, people used to dress up to do crime.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It's like, ah, it's. It was a different time.

[B]

Yeah. It's like they. Man, we really had. There was respect on all levels. Yeah, right. And they were like, hey, we're the. You know, taking away. We're the Fulton Rockaway Boys. And we dressed like this, you know, There was, like. There was theater to everything. What a better time.

[A]

So fast forward on Young John Gotti. December 16, 1985. Paul Castellano, the head of the Gambino family, walked towards Spark Steakhouse in Manhattan. According to court testimony, police records, Gotti washed from a car across the street as gunman took down Castellano and his underboss, Thomas Bilotti. The hit, unsanctioned by the commission, violated Mafia protocol. But it made Gotti the boss of America's most powerful crime family. And now we enter into the era of the celebrity don. Gotti transformed the role of mafia boss. Unlike his predecessors, who avoided publicity, he embraced it. Regular appearances at Manhattan nightclubs, front page coverage on the tabloids, celebrity style, arrivals at court, public displays of wealth and power. The Ravenite Social Club became his public throne room. That sounds. What is. Can we get a picture of the Ravenite Social Club? That sounds awesome. FBI surveillance captured hundreds of visitors paying homage from men, from made men to celebrities to politicians. His weekly walk around the block with his captains became a media event. That's wild. I didn't know about any of this before I started looking at this. That they would do walk arounds and it became like a thing. That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I do like their own version of paparazzi that just followed them, right? Yeah.

[A]

That's insane. Under guided, the Gambino family maintained its interest in construction, labor unions, gambling operations, loan sharking, extortion, drug trafficking. Allegedly.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Federal investigators estimated the family grossed approximately 500 million annually under his leadership. Though Gotti's high profile lifestyle attracted unprecedented law enforcement attention. Whoa.

[B]

It is interesting because he did make it so. Cuz, you know, it existed in the shadow. I mean, it exists in the shadows to a point where people were like, not even certain that it was real. And then Gotti turned it into like, I want it to sound stupid, but like, they must have got so many more applications, you know, just like really put it on the map in a way, you know, like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Trying to be like an intern or something. Like, they must have gotten way more interns.

[B]

Yeah, it's like almost like when a new, like, destination blows up on Instagram or something and all of a sudden people find out about it. Like, I'm sure they must have been like, our phones are off the hook. Yeah.

[A]

What is Santa Teresa? We should look into this. This sounds amazing. Do you think anyone's ever moved to join, like, the mob? Like, you think there's like an Italian growing up in like South Texas that's like, I'm gonna go to Jersey and.

[B]

Try to make it, I bet, man. Yeah, look, between that. The Sopranos, the guy that's. The thing is they're such captivating figures because they are the. They are the ultimate antihero. Like the tale of the Italian immigrant. Like, they turn to crime because they're outcasts and like, everybody can empathize with that. That's really what happened is they were the lowest rung on the totem pole, so they were like, everyone's rejecting us, so we need to start our own thing. They do that. They have. The genius move in the end is like, they just. I mean, they come to fame during prohibition because they control the alcohol racket, so they gain legitimacy there. And then they control the unions. That's really their genius move. If you control the unions at one point in America, you can control the whole country. So they do this. So then people are like, how could we kind of like, you know, but. And also, people are like, well, they're kind of just violence incurs with each other. It's not really happening to us because they have this, like, code or whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's like, I just started rambling.

[A]

How do they control the unions?

[B]

Oh, that. I don't know. That's just something I've heard them say in a documentary. And I go, that makes. Well, I think it's like, honestly, just strong arm tactics, you know, where it's just like. I mean, that is the thing. It's like that Mike Tyson quote where it's like, yeah, everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face. And I think, like, that's to the ultimate degree, sort of what they did.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And, like, you know. Yeah. So, you know, as a person who's like an impoverished immigrant, whatever it is, of course you're gonna relate to their story of. And, like, you know, you're not affected by the violence, so you're, like, cool. Not cool, but you're like, it's admirable. Like, I understand it.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think there's also an underscore depending on, like, the type of, like, family you were. You know what I mean? Like, if you're doing, like, extortion, I'm like, I don't like that as much. But if you're doing, like, bootlegging.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, thank you.

[A]

Yeah, that's awesome. Like, I don't know why. Like, I draw lines depending on, like, what, the rack?

[B]

Of course, man. Because I would imagine you would put yourself in the shoes of, like, people that time period and be like, I can't drink. And then these other guys come along and they're like, here's some booze. I'd be like, these guys rule.

[A]

Like, these guys.

[B]

These guys are great.

[A]

Because I've been at a party with no booze.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then a guy shows up with booze.

[B]

Yeah, man. Imagine you're At a wedding, and it's a dry wedding. How much does it suck? And then in walks in this flashy Italian guy who goes, I heard there was no booze.

[A]

Yeah. You carry him out. Like, Rudy, you're like, dude, you've just made the wedding. Like, you're a hero.

[B]

Yeah, man. And it's also interesting, too, because, like, people hated Italians before this. Like, they were like, I believe in, like, Louisiana. I think it was the. I mean, you'd have to look this up. But I think in New Orleans, it was like, the largest group lynching was of, like, I think a Sicilian guy allegedly shot a cop. So then all these Italian Sicilians were rounded up and hung or hanged. And so but that Prohibition, they would have did it about face because of that. Which, like, shows you how much of drunks, like, Americans are like, you know what I mean?

[A]

Oh. 1891, 11 Italian American immigrants in New Orleans by a mob for their alleged role in the murder of David Hennessy, police chief. Wow. Some of them had been acquitted at a trial. Is the largest lynching in American history.

[B]

Whoa. Yeah. It's kind of crazy, right?

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. And it's also like, you think people hate Italians now?

[A]

It's like, whoa. Yeah. It's not even close. That is why. See, this is the thing. My mom would read this and be like, see, they're just persecuting Catholics all the time. Like, I'm a French Canadian Catholic, and my mom would be like, look what they do to us. They hate us because of our Eucharist.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

That's a good. Honestly, a good point.

[B]

Believe me, man. Yeah. Italians are the ultimate martyrs. Like, you don't think they love this fact? They're like, sorry all those people had to die, but thank you for fueling us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

Oh, wow. They do hate Catholics. I've actually. I've always said this. Shout out to Italians. If we judged food based off religion, I think Catholic food is the best in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Think about it. Think about it, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Catholic food. Italian. Italian, French.

[B]

Oh, oh. Then we're done.

[A]

Mexican.

[B]

Oof. Come on.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, it's over.

[A]

And then you throw in, like, I don't know, like, a couple other random ones. Rwanda, I think, is largely Catholic. Throw them in there. What does that bring to the table? Of course, like, if you just think about Catholic food, I think. I mean, what is Mormon food? It's not even in the running.

[B]

I don't even know what I mean.

[A]

Jewish food is fine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Jewish food, obviously Muslim food is amazing.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's true.

[A]

But I don't think it's even touching.

[B]

No.

[A]

The diversity and quality of the big three.

[B]

Crazy. No way, man. And what's Thai?

[A]

Oh, I think they're Buddhist. They're Buddhist, which is technically atheist. So atheist food, I think, could be in the running.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. But.

[A]

No, but the big.

[B]

You're never Thai. Buddhist.

[A]

Can we find that out? We should look at that. But I think it is. I think Thai might be Buddhist.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even. I think Koreans, they have a large Catholic population.

[A]

They do. They do.

[B]

Yeah. No, I agree with you. Best food.

[A]

I mean, Hindu food might be close.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Because Indian food is very nice.

[B]

Yeah, it is really good.

[A]

So Hindu food. Food is good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But, yeah, I still. I'm gonna put Catholic food at the top, you guys. What do you think? All right, hit me in the comments. All right. The eventual downfall of John Gotti. According to the research here, Gotti's undoing came from his underboss, Sammy the Bull Salvatore Gravino. The FBI had bugged the Ravenite Social Club's upstairs apartment, recording Gotti discussing multiple murders and criminal operations. Unlike the careful Gambino, Gotti spoke freely about his activities. They put a bunch of evidence against him, you know, different hits, payoffs and rackets, allegedly. Admissions about the Castellano hit and details of other criminal operations. And, yeah, he eventually provided testimony that corroborated the FBI's recordings. And in 1992, Gotti was convicted of murder, Conspiracy to commit murder, racketeering, tax evasion, illegal gambling, and obstruction of justice. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. And that. I think there's some issue, too, with Giuliani and, like, the RICO law, which I think allows them to be charged for, like, everything at once. So it was like a way. It was this, like, novel way, I think, judiciously, to put them away.

[A]

Was that the first time that the RICO was brought in was for Gotti?

[B]

I think it was. It was an older. And this is. I'm so glad you prefaced this with I'm speaking to my dumbest friend. Cause I. I think it. I'm probably mistaken here, but, like, I think it was an older law that Giuliani enacted for wrangling up. Cause, you know, that's basically. That was his agenda was wrangling. Figuring out a way legally to wrangle organized crime.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

The trial took place in September 2009. Whoa, wait, what?

[B]

Oh, that's.

[A]

Is that true? That seems like a long time later. Wait, no, he died in 2002. So this seems like an AI mistake trial took place in 2009. That doesn't seem right. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure that's like how the RICO stuff works, in my very layman's understanding, is that effectively, because these mob guys were so smart, they were able to distance themselves from anything that they ever did. And so you could never actually get them. You could get the under guys, you get the soldiers, but you could never actually pin them. But because. Because of the RICO thing, you're now able to draw threads that I guess legally were not there in the past.

[B]

Yes, that sounds right to me.

[A]

And now I think that's like what they tried to do with young thug in the YSL case that happened in Atlanta. I think they attempted the same thing. The RICO stuff.

[B]

Interesting man.

[A]

But I think he eventually, as of now, I'm pretty sure I think he took some type of thing and is not facing. I think he's got parole, something like that. I don't know all the details. It's not about Wisel, Okay. This is about John Got. But, yeah, he was sentenced to life without parole. He spent 23 hours a day in solitary and confinement. Damn, that solitary is the most insane thing.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It's like crazy. I don't like. I guess, like, I don't know if prison is really for rehabilitation. You would hope that it kind of is.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But solitary is just insane.

[B]

Yeah. Solitary, you're just like, oh, we want. We want to just completely degrade you and take away your humanity.

[A]

I mean, don't get me wrong, this guy probably commits crimes. People in solitary, you know, I'm not gonna say do or don't deserve to be there, but I mean, that is brutal.

[B]

It's such a weird thing. Cause at that point you go like, the effect is just what, the torture of a person. But then at that point, you're like, there's no endgame here. Aside from they just, like, they die.

[A]

We got some breaking news about one of your countrymen.

[B]

We are the first to break this.

[A]

Quite literally the first to break it. Allegedly. And again, I want to be careful with this because obviously this person has not been. This is coming again from a Twitter account that I found that allegedly the shooter in the United Healthcare CEO shooting was a UPENN graduate named Luigi Maggione.

[B]

Yeah. Brethren, on behalf of the Italian American community, I'd like to speak about Mr. Maggioni.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, this is a tough episode to break this on, because I know you're very sensitive about Italian stereotypes based off the way you were raised. I know you're. You don't like these kinds of things. Tracksuits. We're not all tracksuits and Cuban links. You know what I mean? That's what you were saying.

[B]

And then some of us graduate UPenn.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

But we still do the Italian. It's so funny. You just can't get away from your heritage, no matter what.

[A]

It is amazing.

[B]

This guy went to Wharton, the whole thing.

[A]

And then you're telling me about crime against Italians.

[B]

I'm like, and then this guy's putting poetry on bullets. So theatrical, you know?

[A]

Good Lord. You really can't help it.

[B]

God.

[A]

But yeah, apparently, again, this is coming from a Twitter account, so it is absolutely true. And there's no way that this is in any way, you know, fact. Yeah, there's no way this is fake. But apparently his two degrees from UPenn graduated in 2020, which, again, if his graduation got affected by Covid, I can see how he'd be frustrated by that. Bachelor of Applied Science in Computer and Cognitive Science and then a Master's in Computer science. I'm assuming that's mse. That's gotta be masters. That's how dumb I am. I don't even know the abbreviations.

[B]

Yeah, man, that sounds good to me. You said it. And I was like, yeah, man, I'm good going with that.

[A]

Like, PhD. I don't know what that stands for.

[B]

Ah, physically hot dude. Cause I think when you become a doctor, you just look better.

[A]

Which he was. This guy was quite the looker.

[B]

Can I say this? And I hope Mangione didn't do it. And this is just a way to draw. Can you imagine if he doesn't do it? And then, like, the influx of DMs he's getting that are just like, hey, I know you didn't do it, but, like, that's a hell of a pick of you in the wilderness. Like, oh, you graduated. He's the next bachelor.

[A]

He's absolutely going. Regardless of if he did do it or didn't do it, he's absolutely going to get insane. Play from this, like, Menendez brother. Stop. You know what I mean? Like, you know how they were getting, like, insane, like, letters and stuff in prison?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like, I. Yeah, I'm concerned. Like, I don't want my wife to see this guy. Like, I'm going to keep her off the Internet for the day because he's just too handsome and, like, he's a bad boy. But like in the good way. Like he's like trying to like fight for the common man.

[B]

My wife's going to be like, can you just say deploy, depend and defend in bed? Yeah, for sure, man.

[A]

Yeah. And apparently people calling out tweets of his that are interesting, like you where he's like sort of tweet. He's just the lyrics to Whop by Meg the Stallion. So I don't know how that applies at all, but it is interesting. I guess he was a big fan of Nicki Minaj. No, he's debating utilitarian ethics versus virtue ethics.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Basically saying the utilitarian ethics say the action is good if the consequences are good.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The virtue ethic would say the action is good if it is what a virtuous person would do. Poll results indicate respondents moral framework. And then homicide is worse consequences. And then the R word here is worse virtues. So yeah, this is just a tweet of his. Sort of like dealing with the philosophy, I guess of like, you know, what type of ethics are the best framework.

[B]

I will say, man, what a higher caliber of a sat. You know what I mean? Like in terms of like, hey, man, if people are worried about the education system in a America, if these are our level of assassins. Pretty good.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. What class did he take? You know the Monopoly bag thing?

[B]

The.

[A]

The Monopoly money. Apparently they found his backpack in Central Park.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it was full of Monopoly money.

[B]

Hilarious.

[A]

Which is a joker esque level like tactic. Wow. Yeah. Sort of insane.

[B]

This is. Yeah, man. I mean, there's a weird. And I know it's obviously. And we were talking about off brick a little bit, but I would be a hypocrite if I had zero empathy for the, you know, the CEO that he killed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But at the same time, there is that primal bone of me that is a little prideful that he's Italian and then he's so Italian. Luigi Mangione.

[A]

Good lord, that name is delicious.

[B]

That is a meal I'd like to eat.

[A]

I mean. Yeah, it is crazy. Again, you gotta wonder like what his parents think. Like. Yeah, I don't know. It's a very. It's gonna be interesting to see how the ripple of this plays out.

[B]

I would say if they're anything like my Italian family, they'd be like, luigi did it.

[A]

You know what I.

[B]

And not that side of the family. I'm talking about my mom's side of the family.

[A]

Kids a star.

[B]

Yeah, kids a star.

[A]

His name up in lights. Luigi did it. That's beautiful.

[B]

Move over Mario's brother.

[A]

Oh, dude. Calling him Mario's brother is just disrespectful.

[B]

That's what I mean. It's like he's knocked down, man. He's no longer the most famous Luigi.

[A]

Yeah, that is true. All right, let's just button up the story on John Gotti, okay? Like we said, the RICO took him down. His legacy lives on in pop culture criminal underworld that he once dominated. He is indeed the last don, the final mafia boss to achieve celebrity status, and perhaps the last to wield the kind of power his predecessors enjoyed. And his story is a cautionary tale.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He got big. He got very big. I wouldn't do that. I don't know. I'm not built like a mob boss. I don't have the disposition. I just wouldn't. I get so anxious, like, I get so nervous. Like, you know what I mean? Like.

[B]

Like the wifi went down, you almost lost your mind.

[A]

You saw it, right? Like, that's just like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't understand, like. And I've talked to guys that have been allegedly affiliated with, you know, organized criminal activity. And that's the question I'm always asking is, like, how do you deal with every day being like, is someone gonna take me out?

[B]

Totally, man.

[A]

Are the feds gonna come? Like, that feeling is inescapable.

[B]

Totally, man. That's the way they're living. I mean, that goes back. That harkens back to the gambling thing, the women on the side, you know what I mean? Like, the release you have because you're living a certain way also needs to be high stakes. And I can't imagine. Yeah. That amount of. As even a full time comic. I'm so stressed out, you know what I mean? And my life isn't on the line. It's just like, I don't know how I'm gonna make rent kind of thing. But your body living on. That's a whole different level of anxiety, man.

[A]

Bro. And it's interesting because the guys I ask the question, do they always go, didn't think about it.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Never.

[A]

Never phased me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I believe them because I don't think they can do the work that they did for as long as they did with the anxiety that I would likely experience. Like, I just think, like, I take them at their word.

[B]

Yeah. I think if you grow up in it and it's what, you know, you're just sort of become accustomed to it maybe. And even if, like, I don't even think if they know that like they're living with those nerves just because they grew up in it. Like, it's almost like. I thought the Sopranos did a good job of capturing that where like, you know, Tony, he has to go to a therapist. Like, he just has these panic attacks. But they're never sort of allowing themselves the moment to process why. I mean, maybe they are now, but like. But I don't think back then they were doing that. They were just kind of like going through life with this underlying raging anxiety because of the way they're living, obviously.

[A]

When did you watch Sopranos finally?

[B]

Well, Sopranos are interesting because Sopranos came out when I was like, latter half of my high school years. And Soprano, a lot of it shot like near me in North Jersey.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's like the last scene in Holstein's is like, that's the ice cream parlor we would go to after football games. Wow. It's like in Bloomfield, New Jersey. Yeah. So like. So it was like a lot of it was like, that's the deadly. You know what I mean? It was a lot of those kind of moments.

[A]

But this, that's my uncle. This is very close to home. Is this the Truman Show? What the hell is happening?

[B]

I'm like looking at him right there, like, you're there. How did you do? But no, the Sopranos was like. I think the Sopranos was just so good into taking into account almost all sides of it and like really showing these people as people that I think, like, it was watchable for me. I mean, there are moments, like, honestly, like the violent moments are always difficult for me. And I think they're never not going to be like, even in shows, like, even if it's not off, you know, organized crime related, where it's like there is a like a gangland style killing or assassination. It's hard for me not to go to sort of my father's final moments.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So. But like, otherwise, like the Sopranos I thought did a really good job of like. Cause I felt myself rooting for Tony. So it kind of like humanized. Yeah, that's the point of the show, I guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like I didn't know. I didn't know the details about my father at the time, but post watching it, it's like it's humanized him. So I think the Sopranos is actually really good.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just insane. Do you know any specific stories about your dad that you haven't shared so far in the conversation?

[B]

Not too many. Like, I think my mom and myself not out of like, just. I've been. Not that, like they're bad people or anything like that. Or like they're people that are involved. Like, nothing like that. Just people that might have known him at the time. Like, they've said some, like, kind of vague anecdotes, but nothing like any funny stories. Yeah, that's what I was trying to think of. Like, not. Not really. I think they. He was a pretty serious guy, really. That's what my mom said. He was very. She's. That's why she thinks it's so funny that I do comedy because she was like, he's a very. Aside from his carpenter joke, which you could argue is not really a joke, but he was a very serious guy who sort of looked at himself as like a very, like, you know, sort of like dapper, like, business minded, like, and I think that's kind of how he rose a little bit. Was that like. He was. He was more like mathematically oriented kind of guy.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So, like, I mean, I know he loved to gamble. That's like. They were like. He was a great craps player. That's really like what they were like. He were. He kind of is every. It's so funny. He's so much of what I'm not. And it's like. That's the interesting thing with the show is like, seeing like, nurture versus nature of like, hey, he. Could he. He have been me if given complete, like, autonomy to do his own thing? Or could I have been him thrust into the world he was in? So it's like, it's kind of interesting because, yeah, my mom was like, he was like, he's very serious. You're not serious. He was very good at math. You're a horrible math. They were like, he could sing. You cannot sing. And then he was like, he's pretty suave. He's like, I've seen you around your wife. You're not like, you know what I mean?

[A]

I love that they find just ways to insult you. This is amazing. What a good Italian family. Like, let me tell you about your father, all right? He was successful, handsome, good with women. You guys are nothing alike.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Thinning hair, but somehow he pulled it off. You have a full head, but still, somehow you maintain no level of attraction. No, it's funny because my mom, at one point she. After he had passed, and it wasn't anything like, nothing demonstrative on their end, but they wanted to be a part of my life more than I think my mom wanted them to be. Just because she was worried about. Not so much. She was worried about my own safety. She just really wanted me to have a chance at completely my own life. So, like, it wasn't like, complete disconnect from them, but, like, she was careful about sort of like, visitation, whatever it was. So she went to court for custody for me, and she told me later on the stand, she was like, I have a very anxious child. And I was like, jesus Christ. Like, you had to say, like. She was like, yeah. A courtroom full of people. Stranger. She was like, I mean, he can't even. He can't sleep without a nightlight. I'm like, oh, he's just, like, roasting me in a courtroom.

[A]

So this is on the record?

[B]

This is public record.

[A]

Yeah. Of Just like, my stenographer wrote this down.

[B]

Weird idiosyncrasy. Like, it's just like, he tucks the covers above his forehead.

[A]

He's a blatant bedwett. Like, we know this verifiably. She did not perfect herself. This is documented.

[B]

Yeah. There's claw marks in my shoulders from the way he hugs me. God. Here's his Christmas list, by the way.

[A]

Oh, that's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've done embarrassing things, but it's never been as a part of sort of court testimony.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? It's never been testified with a judge.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I'm sure there were snickers, you know what I mean, in the courtroom.

[A]

Wait, when was this custody battle?

[B]

This was like. So he died when I was seven months old.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So this is like, years following that where she was like.

[A]

And who was attempting to attain custody?

[B]

His side of the family. Some members of his side of the family. And it wasn't even, like. I think it was a level of custody. I don't think it was like they wanted full custody. It was some kind of visitation. And like I said, it wasn't, like, wholly bad people that they were asking. It's like. Cause everybody, you know, not everybody is involved.

[A]

And also, if people do bad things, that doesn't mean that they don't have redeeming elements for children. Right.

[B]

And my mom is also seeing these people in their best. Like, the worst light is being shielded from her. So she knows them in their best light. Obviously, horrific things have occurred, and she's aware of that, but she knows them as, like, these are. You know, that makes sense.

[A]

She's just looking to give you a fresh start.

[B]

Yeah. That's really all it was. But, yeah, she really wanted to convey, you know, the sincerity of the moment, I guess, by bringing up all of my specific fears.

[A]

Yeah, this kid's a loser.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can't let this kid be around these people.

[B]

I mean, he's true right now, but I swear to God, at 15, you can't picture him.

[A]

It's just. No way. You gotta also wonder what that carpenter did. I mean, sure. What is a car like, is a. If he's a contractor, I get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If that's what he's kind of meaning to say. This is a contract. That also does some woodwork.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that.

[A]

I think he's free and clear. I. I give him a pass on that. Because contractors, I mean, of course, they're all crooked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a carpenter, I mean, that's Christ, J. I mean, like, this is like a. A. I don't know, Christ.

[B]

Like, Than forgiveness.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So perhaps.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, jeez. But also, what's more Christ like, than being a carpenter that gets killed?

[B]

Sure. That's also true. Yeah.

[A]

The good with the bad.

[B]

And at 33, your dad might have.

[A]

Done the second coming of Jesus.

[B]

You might be right, man. That's crazy.

[A]

Anyway, let's talk about another mob boss, please. All right. And we're gonna kind of just change up gears a little. Okay. We're gonna go to Medellin.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Talk about Pablo Esco.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Obviously when people say the mob, I think they think about, you know, Cosa Nostra, of course, our guys. Yeah. But Pablo, I think, can cannot be understated. I think it needs to be discussed when we're talking about organized crime. He's a. He's a. He's a fascinating human being. 1975, he gets arrested for cocaine possession. The sort of, you know, unremarkable 26 year old couldn't have appeared capable of what would become one of the largest drug trafficking operations of all time. That's that infamous mugshot of him, I believe.

[B]

Yeah, it's just. It's pretty great.

[A]

It's an insane. And he's 26. He's just kind of having a good time, which actually gives me, like. I feel like Gary Vee in this moment where I'm like, hey, if you're 26. Pablo Escobar didn't start popping until he was, like, near his 30s. You know, you have time.

[B]

Oh, you got time, guys.

[A]

If you're not successful by the time you're 30, just look at this guy. He was, you know, he was just a low key, sort of, you know, cocaine advocate. He was just a user.

[B]

So I got My Comedy Central half hour presents at 34.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

You know, so you have time.

[A]

Everyone relax.

[B]

There's levels to accomplishment, but I think it's a there with Pablo and the trajectory of his life.

[A]

If you want to become an organized crime boss, there's still time for all of us. Okay. Oh, here's the infamous mug shot.

[B]

Smile, man.

[A]

Which is just sick as hell. He's also. This guy's built for 26.

[B]

Yeah, he. He looks like a linebacker, right?

[A]

Like, he's broad shouldered.

[B]

Like, you wouldn't. You wouldn't in the combine be like, we'll take a chance of the fourth round. Come on. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, he's got some. He's got some issues. Yeah, but. Yeah, why not?

[A]

But great energy. I mean, yeah, he's on fire. And all the guys that go with him in the locker room, they come out feeling way different, you know what I mean?

[B]

100%, man.

[A]

He might be a morale guy.

[B]

There's a locker room guy if I ever saw one. Dripping with charisma. Are you kidding me?

[A]

Or it's the cocaine, but regardless, whatever it is, whatever it is, it's working.

[B]

Brought it to the surface.

[A]

I mean, it's amazing.

[B]

If I had that, I would. I would had an hour at 34.

[A]

And with the. With the shirt too. I mean, he is the whole thing, man. The shirt is a little bit dental hygienist. Like, it is a little like dental hygienist.

[B]

You definitely grew up in Florida. What? Dental hygienist? Are you out of your mind?

[A]

I mean, it's. It is just. It looks like there's like butterflies or something like that. Like, it looks like what a.

[B]

You're insane.

[A]

It looks like scrubs a tiny bit. Okay, with all due respect, I mean, I'm sure he changed up his mind.

[B]

Sure. You know, the collared shirt, scrubs with a couple buttons open.

[A]

All right, the collared shirt.

[B]

What kind of Orlando dentist did you go to?

[A]

That is a good point, actually. My dentist is probably connected organized crime, to be honest.

[B]

He's like, no cavities, but I'll give you the nitrous. I'm a good time guy.

[A]

Exactly. He's like, we're going to do gold caps. All right, But I got to deal on him, okay? My buddy Tony is going to get his gold for the low.

[B]

You're like, why are you giving me opioids?

[A]

Don't worry about.

[B]

Some people leave a little lollipop. Not around here.

[A]

Pablo Emilio Escobar. Gavier, gavier, gavier I don't know how to pronounce it exactly. I think you're doing it. Began his criminal career in Medellin. Allegedly. I'm just throwing allegedly. It's all over the place. I don't even know if full documentaries.

[B]

Made about this guy. Movies, whatever. We don't know, though, folks.

[A]

Look, we can't just crucify people in the court of public opinion.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

They gotta go and be proven, you know, guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[B]

Shout out to Mangione.

[A]

During the early 1970s, he was rising the ranks. His early schemes included selling contraband cigarettes, stealing cars. You know, we all start somewhere.

[B]

Wow, what a fast and furious trajectory. Do you know what I mean? Just like petty DVD thieves to just. They're in outer space in a Camaro.

[A]

Crazy, right?

[B]

What a time.

[A]

Contraband cigarettes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's just hilarious that that was ever a thing. I talked to a guy. There's a undercover FBI guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bob Hamer. Fascinating human being. And, yeah, he's the man. Bob. Shout out to Bob. But he. He was trying to get a sort of Chinese crime syndicate. They're like an organized crime syndicate that was working with the North Koreans and operating out of China at some point in, like, the 90s. And the way that they, like, eventually started tracking them was because they were selling. Selling counterfeit Marlboros, and they were, like, shipping them in, and then they were selling them across the country. And what's fascinating is that in their. They would predominantly get shipped into, like, Chinatowns across the country because the distributors knew the, like, mom and pop sort of corner store guys in these Chinatowns. And so they were buying them and flipping them, and you could sell them for the same price as cigarettes, like 10 bucks or something, but you're getting them for half the price of regular Marlboros. So everyone's getting. Making money on it. But what's interesting is that they were made from tobacco fields in China. So they were proper cigarettes that looked like cigarettes that smoked like cigarettes, but they tasted different.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

So to this day, allegedly, according to him, folks that grew up in Chinatowns, that grew up smoking the counterfeit Marlboros prefer them.

[B]

Sure, that makes sense.

[A]

Which is hilarious to me that you'd have someone that's like, whoa, this Marlboro tastes real. Like, we need. Give me the fake stuff. Like, what happened to the fake Chinese Marlboro that I grew up SW smoking?

[B]

Yeah. Maybe that's what the marbles of my youth.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. They remind me of, you know, Shanghai. But yeah, this is allegedly what Pablo Escobar was doing. It is flipping contraband cigs, man.

[B]

Yeah. What a way to start. Yeah, you're right. Like, what a weird. What a weird subculture of crime. Contraband cigarettes. Yeah, it really is like the unpaid intern of the criminal world.

[A]

You're just looking for your gap, you know what I mean? That's how it shares. By the 1970s, Escobar organized. His organization had grown exponentially. His operations revolutionized cocaine trafficking through several verified innovations. The establishment of large scale processing facilities in the Colombian jungle. So he's sort of like Bezos in this way.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

Yeah. We're going to get, you know, sort of like a centralized facility that's going to be able to ship stuff, you know, same day.

[B]

It is impressive, like, even going back to where we were talking about the Italian, like, when they're like, just, they. They figure out this, like, specific business infrastructure. The plus minus is like, man, if we could have just made you, like, economies are, you know, or like, whatever. It's like, God, if you could have turned, like. People talk about that with my landscape, like, where it's like, if you could have just turned your talents to somewhere else. It's like, man, we maybe will. The events of what's going on right now might not have happened.

[A]

Yeah, but that's the problem is that you're asking these people to make less money.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

Isn't that wild?

[B]

That is true.

[A]

If you're like, I mean, it'd be clean money, it'd be legal money, of course. But you're basically being like, hey, don't make a billion dollars.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just make a couple million.

[B]

Right. You're like, you wouldn't have. You wouldn't wake up with anxiety the minute you open your eyes. But I guess you're like, going back to what we were saying. If you're someone where it's like, it just doesn't register like that for you. They just see it like, as, like, oh, but I'd make less money, so I don't care.

[A]

Yeah. What's the problem? What, you know, there is.

[B]

There's not the. I don't see the risk you.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he was doing these processing facilities. The use of civilian aircraft with modified fuel tanks and cargo holds.

[B]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Development of sophisticated smuggling routes through the Caribbean and the creation of an extensive distribution network in South Florida.

[B]

Man.

[A]

Your alma mater.

[B]

My God. Yeah. Just this combination of Jeff Bezos and Magellan. Unbelievable, man. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like the Silk Road, you know? What? I mean, like, there's, like, Marco Polo. He's like, they're finding these trade wraps. Like, there's something about that. That must be fun. Like, just looking at a map, being like, how do we organize?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Like, oh, there's a mountain range here. We can. I would actually probably enjoy that if I had to be an organized crime guy. Just being on the logistics side.

[B]

That's so funny.

[A]

And looking at, like, the plus minuses, just balancing the books and having to call them up, be like, hey, this quarter, we're, you know, we're bleeding here. You know, we're dying.

[B]

Like, we need a cartography guy. And you seem to have a real interest in maps.

[A]

Yeah, there was probably no.

[B]

Crazy man. Of course. That's so funny, though. Yeah.

[A]

It's just so insane. Escobar's public work programs in Medellin are well documented. So, again, showing the ambiguity of these folks. I mean, it is insane, like, just to give contrast that the scale of his operation, just to give you the size. According to DEA investigations, the peak of the Medellin cartel controlled 80% of the global cocaine market.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wow. The organization's earnings, confirmed by seized cartel documents reached $420 million per week.

[B]

Yeah, that's like when, you know, when, like, hedge fund people, like, tell you what they make per minute. You know what I mean? It's like that kind of stuff where you're like, oh, that's how rich you are. Like, it's unfathomable.

[A]

420 million per week. It's insane. And so, again, you look at this and you're like, all right, you know, he's probably involved in some bad business. Probably some people got hurt. Are drugs good or bad? This is an ambiguous. But then you look at the good things that he did. He constructed housing developments for the poor, including the neighborhood known as Barrio Pablo Escobar. He built soccer fields throughout the city's poorest areas, funded medical programs, and these actions earned him genuine support amongst Medellin's poor, who referred to him as Don Pablo.

[B]

Yeah, of course, man. Because if you're living there, not affected by it, and only reaping the benefits of it, you're just going to see it as like, no, this is great. You know? I mean, like, if it's. If it's isolated, I don't know, you know, I'm not as familiar, but, like, if you can maintain isolation with it and. Because that's what people talk about, guy, like, I always thought it was funny they would use this specific example which are like, all right, the juice kind of isn't worth the squeeze here. But it's very funny. They'd be like, he handed out turkeys on Thanksgiving. And it's like, I mean, how. I guess, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, okay. But they would always cite that. It would just always make me laugh as that was like, there's a turkey shortage. You don't know about it. And this guy, you know, we don't have them. And insides. Come on. Cans of cranberries. This guy's incredible.

[A]

The duality of man. Yeah. So now we're kind of, again, he's, like, sort of building up throughout the 70s. He's doing his little operations, and by 1984 to 1991, that little window is the bloodiest phase of what's known as the war years. This is Escobar's warrior against the Colombian state. Verified attacks include the assassination of Justice Minister Rodrigo Lara Bonilla in 1984. Allegedly, the murder. Say again?

[B]

Sorry, Was that the one on the plane? Wasn't he? Like, he blew up somebody on a plane. Sorry, I interjected, with nothing to stop your progress.

[A]

Yes, but. No. Okay, not that one. But you're exactly right.

[B]

All right, all right.

[A]

The murder of presidential candidate Luis Carlos Galan in 89, and the bombing of Avianca Flight 203, killing 107 people. Board allegedly. Tough, I think.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

So, again, it's like, all right, you're building houses, you're helping people, but also there's a plan that goes down. It's like. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, you know, there's, you know, what you're getting into. You know, you're lying in bed with, you know, this comes with it. So, yeah, it's. You can't turn a blind eye, you know, for the people that are like. But what about this? It's like, you got to also deal with that, but you also. You know what?

[A]

This is making so much money, too. I mean, it's insane. Like, you think about, like, the way that, like, corporate CEOs in America, how their brains change with, like, sort of, you know, unthinkable wealth.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like, you gotta wonder how he feels. With the same level of unthinkable wealth. 420 mil a week for certain periods of time, plus also, like, oh, I'm running, like, a militia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Say what you will about, like, Musk, Gates, Bezos, Zuckerberg, any other, like, sort of American, you know, technocrat, billionaire.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're not forming violent, you Know, militias.

[B]

Yeah. For the most part. I think Gates hasn't done it.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think.

[B]

I think. As far as I know. How cool would that be though, if you found out about that?

[A]

I mean, based off the way things are going, they might need to, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, it seems like the American people are not happy. Okay. If I'm in that position, if I'm a B, if I'm a proper B. Yeah. I'm getting some boys, I'm getting a militia. I'm getting a whole squad lined up.

[B]

And you're like, and to be. And fellas, I am the map guy. I know I'm the boss, but I am strictly the map guy. Yeah, yeah, I do. I love the Pablo Escobar 420 million. And he was like, we gotta get some hippos. I always love that. That's like. There was like a child, like whimsy about him that he maintained throughout the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah, it is beautiful, right? There is a little element.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

I mean, MJ kinda did the same thing, right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

He's like, hey, I'm the biggest pop star in the world. Let's make like a little theme park.

[B]

Yeah, but with him it's different. Cause you're like, okay, you see a stunted child.

[A]

That's what this is.

[B]

You know what I mean? And like, you're like. But with Pablo Escobar, you are a vinegar violent drug dealer. And you're just like, we get some. Can we get some livestock in here?

[A]

Bring in the Barnum and Bailey. All right, let's get. Let's get a train car.

[B]

So it's just such a great contrast.

[A]

Yeah. Have you heard of La Catherine?

[B]

No, there's.

[A]

You've probably never heard of it because no one's ever pronounced it that way. That's not at all how you pronounce it, but. By 1991, Escobar negotiated a unique surrender agreement with the Colombian authorities. He had a custom built prison, La Catradal. Included features documented by multiple sources, personal oversight of security personnel. So he basically controlled the COs. Restricted police access, luxury accommodations, and the continued operation of his business through cellular phones. He remained there until July of 1992, when authorities discovered that he was conducting business and ordering executions from within the facility. Don't. His escape from La Cradle sparked the largest manhunt in Colombian.

[B]

Man, I get it a little bit because it's a little bit of a heat trick because he's getting away with so much in the prison. That he goes like, hey, can I just do bit? Like, we can't do that.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

But I get it because they're allowing so much grace for him.

[A]

Have you ever heard. I'm pretty sure at one point Escobar brought, I think, like the Brazilian national soccer team to his prison.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Chris says, can you pull up a video of this? If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure it was Escobar. While he was in. In the prison, they had this big soccer field. I think it was a brilliant Brazilian soccer team. I think Diego. No, it might have been Argentina, because I want to say Diego Maradona played with him or something like this.

[B]

Man.

[A]

We should get the details on it.

[B]

It is amazing when people do modern day king kind of stuff where it's just like, I think I'd like to wake up to a rhinoceros and maybe do a penalty shootout with Diego Maradona. It's like, oh, and you can make that. It's. It's kind of like when sultans are like, hey, can we get Rihanna for my son's like, 8th birthday? Or whatever. Yeah, it's really great.

[A]

I mean, okay. Oh, maybe it was. I think it was Atletico. The Medellin based Atletico Nacional.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, they have a 30 for 30, the two escobars.

[B]

Oh, right, right, right, right.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just insane. But it would be. I mean, you got to wonder, like, do you play defense on him?

[B]

Yeah, of course. Of course. The mindset of you coming over there to be like, I let him win. Right.

[A]

Yeah. I mean. But also at the same time, you got to go hard.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Because he sees that disrespect.

[B]

Of course. Then like, yeah, you don't want to placate him because that's a whole other thing. So you're just like, what?

[A]

Just be stressed again. It's like, I can't even handle the stress of going to play ball.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

With a mob boss.

[B]

Yeah, man. Of course. Yeah. What is the move here? You almost want to be transparent about, like, hey, so here, cards on the table. I want to walk out of here alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't want to treat you like a child. At the same time, I don't want to disrespect you and you feel disrespected in front of your peers or whatever it is. So you let me know, percentage wise how I'm going here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I am a professional soccer player and you are a guy who does a tremendous amount of cocaine every night.

[A]

Yeah. And you're built like an American football player. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So it's not. Chances are it's not going to be great. You. What is the move?

[A]

Yeah, that is stressful. I would just. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I think you got faking injury. That's what I would do.

[B]

That's not a bad move, actually. I think that is the move.

[A]

Faking it and just be like, hey, my fake injury.

[B]

So you go, yeah, that's. That's it.

[A]

So he eventually escapes. Escapes. I think he just walked out, of course. And the search for Escobar. Escobar involved unprecedented cooperation between the Colombian authorities and the U.S. agencies. The search block, a specialized Colombian police unit worked with the DA and the CIA personnel to track him through radio triangulation and phone surveillance. December 2nd, not long ago, you know, the anniversary just passed. 1993. The search block located Escobar in Medellin. And official records indicate that he was killed during an attempted escape across neighborhood rooftops.

[B]

Sure. I mean, wild. Also, like, I mean, you know, I guess just bird's eye view. Pretty cool way the neighborhood rooftop. Like, you know, I mean, like, it feels like Aladdin. It feels.

[A]

I mean, one jump ahead of the bread line, just flying around.

[B]

Yeah. And that's funny. He has a monkey, too, because of whatever.

[A]

We got hippos. We have capuchin.

[B]

We'll say too, man. And. And this not to go back to, you know, our boy, man, Gioni, but the idea of there's gotta be a little bit of, like, you've gotta feel good a little bit. Or at least like bin Laden, Escobar. This guy was just like, the whole country wants me. You know what I mean? There has to be a little bit of you that's like. It's a little bit of an ego thing, bro.

[A]

This guy's Twitter is still up.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Your boy crazy, man. I wonder who's running it. I wonder what friend has the password that, like. I mean, what is he, 26? He's gotta have some dumb friends.

[A]

Yeah. Let me. Let me say, it doesn't seem like he's. He hasn't posted in a while, but he has, like, all these old tweets again. I'm sort of apprehensive to read them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I don't know.

[B]

Sure. Of course.

[A]

You know, until he's convicted or at least, like, I've read from something not Twitter that he's been apprehended. But if anyone's interested, I mean, his Twitter still. Still kicking.

[B]

It seems Kaczynski like, in terms of the intelligence.

[A]

That's the problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, you read Kaczynski's, you know, manifesto.

[B]

Pretty good points here.

[A]

This guy's been fat. Yeah. This guy got bars.

[B]

Look, he's off on some stuff. Don't get me wrong, you know, you got to delineate. But, like, it's bad.

[A]

You know, you shouldn't. Shouldn't do crime. Shouldn't do crime. Terrorism is bad, of course, but he does. But everything up until the terror.

[B]

Theodore, there are some good points here.

[A]

Well, that's like. Remember when Osama went viral on TikTok?

[B]

Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Everyone's like, wait a second. This Osama guy, that was.

[B]

That was bananas.

[A]

Yeah, it's insane.

[B]

It's all insane because that, you know.

[A]

Doing bad things is bad.

[B]

Of course. And I think all. Also, of course, it goes without saying.

[A]

Put everything up until the bad things.

[B]

Yeah. You know, look, there's. You know. But I think that was so crazy, especially someone who, like, was around in the New York area, you know, from Jersey around that time, who, like, you knew someone who knew someone who was affected by 911 to have another generation that was just like. Well, it's just. It's just the movie. It's the movies. For us, for them to be like.

[A]

That is a good point.

[B]

So that was an interesting thing. That was. And I'm a liberal, but, like, that was a bridge. That was the moment where I was like, I'll homeschool my kids. Like, this might be a bridge too far for me.

[A]

Oh, that is. That is funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, dude, I'm. I just had a child, like, a couple months ago, and I tell people, I'm like, yeah, you know, I like to homeschool. People look at you like you're crazy. They look at you and they're like, you can't do. As if, like, school is, like, doesn't have any issues.

[B]

No, man.

[A]

It's like, hey, I don't know if you've seen the news, okay. There's some wild shit that happens at school, man. It's like, I'm not saying every person should homeschool their kid, but I'm saying if you're a decent guy, if you're.

[B]

A good father, if you're a good family. I watched. There's that new, like, I don't know if you saw it. There's like that Hulu whatever part doc called Social Studies about, like, just. It's just the documents a year of high school students coming out of the pandemic and, like, the influence of social media on them. Everything that happens within that year is like, there's a school shooting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's. You know, there's these. It's like, to the point. Yeah. My wife and I were watching it last night, and she was like, we don't even have a kid. She was like, we should homeschool our boy. We don't know. We don't have. We. It's.

[A]

Our dog's being homeschooled. Okay. We're not sending to, like, puppy training classes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. We're not getting the dog whisperer involved because the dog whisperer is going to try to make our freaking dog gay or something. You know what I mean? We can't have that. Our dog's getting homeschooled.

[B]

We're going to have to do gender reassignment surgery for our pup.

[A]

No, our Labrador is getting homeschooled.

[B]

But you. Yeah. When she said it was, like, it seemed like such a sensible option, whereas I think when I grew up, it was like, come on, that's crazy. But, like, it doesn't seem. It doesn't. I don't think it's gonna be viewed so out of whack, man, in the years to come.

[A]

I have a confession.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

I was homeschooled. Yeah.

[B]

You can't tell.

[A]

You mean that?

[B]

Yes, I do mean it.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I know there was a little bit of trepidation in my voice, and I'll say. I'll give you why. Cause I didn't want to just, like, blanket a grit. I want it for the sake of entertainment. I wanted to be like, I mean, look, you're a little off to the left. We could all see this.

[A]

But, like.

[B]

But no, you can't tell.

[A]

Up until, like, the fourth or fifth, I actually got to double check. It was, like, halfway through fifth grade, like that. And I went into school, and here's the problem. As I was homeschooled and the first, like, I don't even know. It was, like, nine years of my life. My entire education system was, like, Socratic. I would just, like, hang out with my mom, and we would like, debate about, like, religious philosophy. Wow. Like, we would go back and forth about the Reformation, and she'd be like, oh, Martin Luther. Okay. Wow. Not King Jr. Okay, we like King Jr. But Martin Luther the OG. My mom was just like, ugh. Like, this guy with the Reformation didn't reform anything. He destroyed the church. And I'm going back and forth with her. Like, that was, like, my whole early childhood. Wow. Then I go to school and I was doing great in school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then by the time I graduated, I was just, like, leveled out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[A]

I had a great edge.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I just lost it. I was like, damn.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

I had such a chance.

[B]

If I was homeschooled, that is pretty amazing.

[A]

I could have gone to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Imagine that. If I was a little. If I was homeschooled longer, I could have gone to UPenn. I could have denied and defended and deposed. I could have been something.

[B]

God, if it is this guy and he's convicted, whatever it is, I mean, if it turns out to be. He's not. If the whole thing unravels in a certain way and this is all just. We're speaking theoretics here. The prison letter. I mean, like, the amount of prison letters this guy is going to get, it's going to. I mean, it might be a reality show here.

[A]

They might make. They might need to give him Escobar's old prison. They might need to do that. They might need to give him.

[B]

Yeah, man, give him some geese.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Give him some tigers.

[A]

Let him play with Leo Messi. Let him be in a Mr. Beast video. Whatever he wants. All right? Just let it rip.

[B]

Let him meet Mr. Bean. Whatever his dream is. Yeah.

[A]

Give him a hippo. Be awesome. All right, let's. Let's run it back just to the old school. Talk about mobsters. All right. Guy named the Red Devil in the white city.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mr. Al Capone.

[B]

Sure. Al.

[A]

Do you know what that's short for?

[B]

Albert?

[A]

I actually don't know. I didn't look that up before I asked you. Research wise, it seems like a huge mistake. I mean, in my mind, I'm like, oh, Alphonse.

[B]

Oh, Alfonso. Okay. That's. That's got more flair to it than Albert.

[A]

Yeah. Known by the nickname Scarface. Oh, hell yeah. I mean, he's like the coolest looking guy. The coolest looking mobster. God, here.

[B]

He's your quintessential looking, you know, sort of like. I think that's the appeal, too, of the. Especially Italian American ones coming down from Al Capone and Tony Soprano included. Is that like, hey, I could. I could be a man of prominence. I could be a sex seminal symbol and look like shit.

[A]

A sex symbol?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, but just like, sort of like not, you know, like people like, there are women who are like, tony Soprano is my guy. You know what I mean? I usually eat chicken parm sandwiches with your boys all day. It's strip clubs. It's like, yeah. Who doesn't want that life? It's incredible. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, he looks like my kid. You don't know what my kid looks like. You never met him.

[B]

But you showed me a picture before.

[A]

They look very similar.

[B]

No, you're not off, man.

[A]

It makes me got to rethink my relationship. In the autumn evening of 1925, patrons at the Four Deuces Club and South Wabash Avenue watched as Al Capone received news that he. That would change Chicago forever. Johnny to Rio, his mentor and boss, was stepping down after surviving an assassination attempt that left him with five bullet wounds. At 26 years old, Capone would inherit an empire.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Built on bootlegged whiskey and broken laws, the young man adjusted his trademark fedora covering the scars that earned him the nickname he hated, and prepared to write his own chapter in Chicago's bloody history.

[B]

Yeah, it is true. You're like, I don't know, man. He's a pretty dangerous guy. Maybe don't give him a derogatory nickname. You know what I mean? You think that's going to help things?

[A]

But that is like, a very, like, Italian thing to do, Right. Like, I feel like Italian nicknames, they're almost like Jamaican nicknames. Yeah. Like, where it's just like, you know, like, if you're missing an arm, they call you, like, oh, handy. You know, I mean, like, like, oh, yeah. Old Johnny Scarface.

[B]

Yeah. You're like, let him give them the. You don't just start calling them. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, it is. It is a shame. Did you have a nickname growing up?

[B]

No, just Aunt Nothing. Yeah. Nothing like. Yeah, yeah. No.

[A]

You didn't have any type of deformity?

[B]

No, yeah, I didn't. Yeah, I. I think. Yeah, I. They. I did. I was. Tried to be a Tony early on, but I don't think I fit the mold so well. So they were just like, you do.

[A]

Like poetry too much?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Too much of, like, oh, yeah, this guy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you have a nickname?

[A]

No, I wish. I always wanted a nickname.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I.

[B]

It seemed like a lot. It seemed like a burden to me. It was like a lot. Live up to, I guess.

[A]

Depends on what the nickname is, right?

[B]

Yeah. I just felt like it boxed you in, you know what I mean? Like, if you're. If you're like. If you're wild Mark, it's like, well, what if you want to just have, like, a sensible meal, you know what I mean? Or like, whatever it is. Like, you're just like. You're so pigeonholed early On. I feel like.

[A]

Yeah, that is a good point. I don't know. I just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I never had a cool nickname. I always wanted, though.

[B]

Did you try to force one on or.

[A]

No, no, this is the thing. My last name, en francaise, is Gignon.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

It's beautiful. French Canadian. It comes from the verb to win. To win. To win in French. Gagne.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it's got, like, awesome history. It's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we moved to Florida because Gagnon.

[B]

Of course, man. Yeah. What are you gonna do?

[A]

So, like, the litany of nicknames that come from that, I was just like, I'm stick with Mark. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Then Mark, you can't really nickname.

[B]

Yeah. Mark's not.

[A]

There's no nickname ability with that.

[B]

Yeah. There's not a lot of places to go with that. Gagnon. Really? Yeah. Gagnon. Oh, man. Man. The first way you said it, I was like, that's that cool.

[A]

You're just. Just feeling shame just saying it. Like, imagine how I feel. Of course.

[B]

Of course. You can't walk around Florida and being like, it's actually getting on. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. You'd be. You'd be killed. But, yeah. So I never had a nickname, but I always wanted one. Sometimes you get Gags, Sometimes I got Gags, which is kind of cool.

[B]

Gags is cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like Gags is cool. It's pretty innocuous. And that's a fun one to say, man. Gags is cool.

[A]

Gags.

[B]

Gags is. Nah, man. Gags is good.

[A]

But it never really stuck. I never got.

[B]

Yeah, I got DeVito. I would say that's just my last name.

[A]

If I got Scarface, I would. I would run with that.

[B]

Scarface is a lot o. Man. You got to be Scarface all the time. That's what I'm saying.

[A]

But then people be like, you don't even have a scar. I'd be like, not yet. Exactly. Back up.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting to give yourself a nickname. They're like, almost like Minority Report. Yourself with a nickname. That's fortunate. Okay.

[A]

Very ominous. It's so funny.

[B]

Like, I'm fat. Mark, you're skinny. You're like, I'm planning on getting some weight here.

[A]

Exactly. You know. You know, the FDA is not really. There's. Look at red 40. You know what I mean?

[B]

Our food is poisoned.

[A]

Okay. It's still processed. You take, like, a hard stance.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, I should do that.

[B]

Yeah. Give you some. You know, allow you to be fat. You're like, well, this guy's just living up to the name he gave himself.

[A]

Yeah, prostate cancer, Mark. Like, did you have it? I'm like, no. But statistically, you know, one in three men in America by the time they're 80. Look into the facts. All right, anyway, shout out RFK. He's going to fix America. The Chicago that Capone inherited was a city, was a city of stark contrast. The wealthy dined in elegant restaurants of the Gold Coast. Workers crowded into speakeasies in the shadows of the stockyards. Capone made his headquarters at the Lexington Hotel, from which he could oversee his growing empire. Unlike other gangsters who operate in the shadows, he conducted interviews with reporters in custom made suits that cost more than a factory worker's yearly salary. I'm just a businessman, he would tell reporters at the Metropole Hotel, his favorite haunt. I've made my money giving people what they want. What he didn't mention was that his business grossed nearly $100 million annually. All of it untaxed, unregulated, and frequently blood soaked crazy, man.

[B]

100 million back then, too, man. That's so much money right in 19.

[A]

What is this, 1920? 19, 1930s, right?

[B]

What a genius move, though. Like, these guys are really our genius marketers, you know what I mean? Like, to really understand, like, if you look the part, people will go, like, I don't know, maybe he's not like.

[A]

What's interesting also is that, like, there was no, especially in his time, there was no prototype of a gangster.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, that's actually who he was. Yeah, like all these, like, Italianisms that we talk about, these stereotypes that are offensive to you. He was just that guy, by the way. I was.

[B]

I just think they're hilarious now. Yeah, sure. Back then, yeah, back then I was.

[A]

Very old liberal tone marching Columbus Day. Yeah, it is hilarious. Your mom said you couldn't watch the Godfather. That was like. Like, my mom didn't let me watch Harry Potter, you know, different reasons, but similar, though.

[B]

That's interesting, man.

[A]

Now I'm actually joking. My mom didn't really care. She. She was like, I get probably too much freedom when it came to consumption. I had all these older siblings. They would just turn on stuff and I would watch it.

[B]

No, I was similar. She. She was pretty loose. I mean, that's what was a nice thing when your dad was. Whoever he was. Like, the bar was so low for me. Do you know what I mean? Like, as long as I didn't. I didn't commit. Heinous crimes. It was just like, my boy is a saint.

[A]

Step up.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

Step up. Things were not always peaceful for old Al Capone. The streets of Chicago became a battlefield as Capone's organization fought the Northside Gang for control of the city's lucrative bootlegging trade. The violence reached unprecedented levels. Police records show that that during one particularly bloody week in 1926, 25 people died in gang related activities. Chicago's coroners became experts in treating bottles riddled with Thompson machine gun bullets. The Hawthorne Hotel incident demonstrated just how brazen the violence had become. Court records detail how Northside Gudman, driving past in Cadillacs, sprayed the restaurant's facade with a thousand rounds of ammunition in broad daylight. Capone survived by diving for cover. The next day, workers began installing falling steel plates in the walls. And they're still there to this day.

[B]

Man, wild, man.

[A]

Stressful. So stressful again, I just, I don't, I couldn't even fathom. And also you read about this stuff and it's like driving around in Cadillacs, like, it's crazy how things change, but they're also the exact same, like.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Like, you know, the, the nature of the crime. It's like, it's almost hard because you're like, it's so different. Like, oh, they're dealing with alcohol, which is federally legal everywhere. Basically it's out of like a county in Utah. And you know, like, the things that they're doing, they're all dressed up, they all have these accents. But then it's like, it's the same thing everywhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now today, like, just with our version of whatever, you know, things people are trying to get, whether it's drugs or whatever, like even thinking about like, oh, there was, you know, these sort of gangs that were operating with like gambling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

These mobs that were like, protecting gambling. And now it's just like, yeah, download the app.

[B]

Totally, man. That I have no frame of reference other than like a past connection that I didn't even know about. Right. Yeah, but it is like, that pivot is interesting to me that like, and you know, that they have to change with current legalities is like, I just think it's so funny.

[A]

Yeah. You're hearing about people dying over alcohol, which is fully legal. And like even talking to like, I would talk to bookies, guys that like, worked these books for different families.

[B]

Totally, man.

[A]

And they'd be like, yeah, it's like, I don't even have a job anymore in the same way. Because you just download an app Totally, man.

[B]

There's like that, like, I remember and, you know, I think when Japan pivoted from, like, feudalism and like, the need for samurais, the samurais had to just work in grocery stores. And it's like that, like, kind of like, it always makes me laugh that it's like that could potentially happen with today's, like, Italian American world of organized crime or whatever. That is crazy that they would just be like, you know, receptionists at, like, tech firms.

[A]

Because that shogun era was like, like, what, the 20s or something? Like, it was like, recent history, I think. I don't know the exact timeline.

[B]

Yeah, but not, not so, so long ago. And then, like, there was just no need for them and they were such a large part of their society that then they would have to become like, they would work in agriculture and stuff like that, and they, like, they had no handle on it because they had no frame of reference for it.

[A]

Oh, it ended. I mean, it says here that the shogunate was the hereditary military dictatorship that any ended in, like, the 18, like, 1870. Ish.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, wow. I didn't realize it was that recent.

[A]

Yeah, that's wild.

[B]

Like, but I do wonder if it's like, I mean, they've always been pretty, like, malleable in terms of pivoting, but I do wonder if now just because, like, so many major revenue streams are cut off in terms of, like, you know, I mean, sports betting, obviously, like, that's. I mean, that's, you know, pretty much what they're synonymous with, the contemporary one. So it's like, that's gone now. I mean, I think it's very funny that they would be like, you know, DraftKings, we can't do it anymore.

[A]

Boys, get your speculums.

[B]

We're onto a boss. Abortions. Yeah.

[A]

The current contention of the day, it's like, yeah, you know, the mob, they control the organized abortions. You know, they got. They got a monopoly on it.

[B]

Yeah. We are doing gender reassignment surgery in Texas.

[A]

Yo, that is hilarious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If all of a sudden it's like a gender reassignment is completely illegal, Imagine it's just like, hey, it's federally illegal. There's going to be a mob that's going to prop up and be like, hey, you know, you got a couple hundred dollar bills. Yeah.

[B]

You could go from Leo to Lucy in an afternoon.

[A]

Have you ever heard about the Valentine's Day Massacre?

[B]

I've heard of it, but. Yeah. Refresh my memory.

[A]

We're going to explain this and the fall of Al Capone and his legacy. When we come back from a short break, we're just going to hear from some of the sponsors that make this show possible. And we'll be back in just a second. See you then. Hey, guys, really quick. Did you know that on this day in history, in 1582, Pope Gregory introduced the Gregorian calendar, which Mo of the world still uses today? Or that in 1957, the Soviet Union launched Sputnik 1, the first artificial satellite, into orbit? This event triggered the space race between the USA and the USSR I learned these facts pretty recently, actually, on the Smore Camp newsletter. That's right, Smore Camp, the inner sanctum. For this kind of show, we do a ton of research. I have different researchers and friends that help me find information. And not everything can make the episode either it's, like, too crazy crazy, it's too, like, weird or gory and it will get demonetized on YouTube or it's just additional. And it doesn't always make it, but it always makes it into the Smore Camp Inner Sanctum newsletter. So if you are interested in expanding your mind, learning new information, and being the most interesting person into every room you step into, check it out in the description or this QR code right here. Now let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because if you're anything like me, you're probably running late all the time. I am. I'm always leaving right when I'm supposed to be somewhere. And I never have time to sit down and grab a new nutritious meal. And that's why I want to talk to you about this little product right here called Huel. Huel is absolutely amazing. It's got everything you need, all the essential vitamins and minerals, all the nutrients, all the protein you need in a regular meal packaged in this beautiful, convenient little bottle. That's right. No more of the days of you running out the door being like, I'll just grab some fast food or something. I'll have like, you know, the leftover cheeseburger in the fridge. No, no, no, no, no. With hu, it's healthy, nutritious. Everything you need to power through the day served in this little bottle right here. I mean, this has got 35g of protein, 7 grams of fiber, 27 vitamins and minerals. Everything's right on the back. And this will help you get through the day. It'll help you perform better not only in the workplace, but also in the gym. I mean, at this point, I think they've sold over 400 million meals. I mean that's. Is it 400 million? I mean that's amazing. 400 million meals. So why not you take control of your health, be a little bit more time efficient and get all the essentials that you need in every little bottle. If you're Interested, go to huel.com, use a promo code camp. That's hu.com. use the promo code camp and get 15% off your first order. Check it out right now. Get control of your health, get control of your life and stop being so late. Let's just fix that. Also be on time. All right, Set an alarm. Let's get back to the show. We are here with my good friend Anthony DeVito. Tony DeVito.

[B]

Come on, Tony. Come on now.

[A]

You almost made a Korean or something Mad Jung. You call me Mad Zhang.

[B]

Nobody clipped that, please.

[A]

And we're again just getting more. Just late breaking news regarding your countryman, Luigi Mangione.

[B]

Yeah, they're going to be like every single detail we're talking about is a little like every new detail. It's just more and more positive about him.

[A]

Yeah. Again, what this guy did is not good. But also he has as a six pack.

[B]

Yeah. And they're gonna be like, oh, in 2023, he actually won the NBA slam dunk contest. Yeah.

[A]

What?

[B]

It's like really crazy.

[A]

He and I think he's up to 80k on Instagram or on, on Twitter.

[B]

80K.

[A]

Including my sister, which I had mentioned to you before. I don't like that. All right. That is starts to make you a little uncomfortable. Yeah. Like you had just said while we were on the break, like, this does feel a little different. It is an interesting ripple. Like the way that this whole thing is sort of unfolding, it feels a little different.

[B]

It feels new. And yeah, like we were saying, it feels old. Cause you've seen it in movies. Like Joker obviously is the first one that comes to my mind. But like I can't really remember or like recall recently, like, or even my whole time I've been alive. Anything like this, this scale and this amount of camaraderie around something bad that immediately. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes in hindsight, like you were saying with 9, 11 and bin Laden and that stuff, but this feels like immediate. We're kind of on this guy's side for the worst thing possible. It's very strange.

[A]

Yeah. Culturally it's gonna be interesting to see how this ripples out. And again, he hasn't been convicted. He's just been named as a person of interest.

[B]

It's the best thing in the world if it's not this guy, and we've just learned about this great kid.

[A]

Yeah. For weeks, you got to make an only fans, right? Like, if I'm him and it's not me, and it's like, all right, I guess I'm just going to make some money on this.

[B]

Who's shaking right now is the hawk to a girl.

[A]

Yeah. She's like, dude, my moment. The Internet was on my side, and now they've all jumped ship. Dang it. Let's talk about another great entrepreneur, Al Capone. St. Valentine's Day Massacre. All right. This wasn't just another gangland slang. This was a carefully orchestrated demonstration of power. Seven men, most associated with Bugs Moran's north side gang. Again, an amazing name.

[B]

Great name.

[A]

Were lined up against the brick wall of a garage in North Clark Street. North. North Clark street in Chicago. Ostensibly, police reports detailed how the killers dressed as police officers, used Thompson machine guns to execute their victims. Capone himself was in Florida watching a horse race to establish his alibi. At the height of its power, Capone's organization was the model of criminal efficiency. Court records would later reveal the scope. 6,000 speakeasies paying for protection. Hundreds of enforcers on regular payroll. Political protection extending from street cops to judges. Bootlegging operations from Canada to Florida.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The Four Deuce Club, one of his first bases of the operation, offered a microcosm of his criminal empire. Gambling on the first floor, prostitution on the second floor. His office on the third. Third floor. From here, you could monitor his empire while maintaining the appearance of a legitimate businessman.

[B]

Wow, man. Like a criminal target.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just. It's incredible.

[A]

And this is the Valentine's Day thing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

That is haunting.

[A]

That's the actual picture. I mean, that's crazy.

[B]

That's. That's wild, man.

[A]

Right? And there's something again, about this that, like, because they're all dressed up, like. I don't know if we see it as morbid as it. Actually.

[B]

No, I think you're right, man. Just like, that's. I mean, I only have worn a suit on my wedding. These guys were wearing suits to kill enemies. Yeah. I mean, it really is like. And almost too like, I think, from the perspective of the victim. I mean, this is pretty callous for me to say, but from the perspective of the victim, there is like, a modicum of, like, hey, thank you for dressing up to do this. You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, yeah, everyone's taking it seriously.

[B]

There's a receipt. Respect that's granted.

[A]

Wow. Strangely, now, Capone didn't just go operate with impunity forever. The end for him came not with a bang of gunfire, but with the whisper of ledger pages. Treasury agent Frank Wilson spent two years building a case against Capone, meticulously documenting his lavish spending. 500 suits, diamond belt buckles in a fortress like compound in Florida against his complete lack of tax returns. In the end, his own extravagance doomed him. Prosecutors used his public displays of wealth against him. I mean, all of these things that he would wear to Cubs games, all the money, the 50,000 he spent at high stakes card games, an 85 foot yacht anchored off his Palm island estate, all while declaring no income to the government.

[B]

It's tragic, but there is something beautiful about it in terms of, like, his rise is because of his lavish spending, and that is his downfall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like they're. They're both like, they seem kind of insignificant, but then they like, oh, that's. That's how he goes. It's. It is. There is. There is poetry to it, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. But the final Ledger was stark. 11 years in prison, 50,000 in fines, and the beginning of the end for Chicago's most notorious crime boss. When he emerged From Alcatraz in 1939, his mind ravaged by untreated syphilis. The city he once ruled had already moved on to new legends and new villains. Today, tourists still stop at the former sites of Capone's empire. The Lexington Hotel, Hawthorne Restaurant, the site of SMC Cartage company where the Valentine's Day massacre took place. Most of the buildings are gone now, replaced by condos or dog spas or whatever. But in certain old neighborhoods, you can still find the bullet holes in the bricks. See, just to show gentrification, happens everywhere, all right, Even in old Italian mob neighborhoods.

[B]

This is a salt bath where Al Capone once strung a wire around a guy's neck.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. In this very gay cupcake shop. Okay. And this exact one, there was a brutal murder.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

But now on Valentine's Day, we do a discount. Actually.

[B]

We do. Yeah. Yeah. There's all these, like, dumb teams that they have. Yeah, of course.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just wild. In the old neighbors, you can still find the bullet holes in the bricks. Silent witnesses to the time when Al Capone turned Chicago into his own battlefield. His actual words, recorded by Chicago Tribune reporter in 1929, perhaps best sum up his philosophy. This American system of ours, call it Americanism call it capitalism, call it what you will, gives each and every one of us a great opportunity if we only seize it with both hands and make the most of it.

[B]

Yeah, that is the thing, right? Those are the tent poles that, like, everyone can relate to and seem like, how can you get mad at these guys? But you're like, yeah, but the two hands, those are the hands he's using to like physically strangle people. Like, yeah, it is interesting, man.

[A]

Yeah, but. All right, Frank Costello, sure you know about this guy?

[B]

Like I said, a name that sounds familiar, but hit me, man.

[A]

Don't worry, I will. This is the gangster who wanted to be respectable. All right? Unlike the machine gun wielding gangsters of his era, Frank Costello never came, carried a weapon. His power came from a different arsenal. Political connections, business acumen, and an understanding that true influence didn't need violence to announce itself. Known as the Prime Minister of the underworld, Costello reshaped organized crime by making it look legitimate. Born Francesco Castiglia in Calabria, Italy, in 1891, he arrived in New York's east coast city of Harlem as a child. Police records show that at his first arrest at age 17 for assault and robbery. But young Frank had greater ambitions than street crime. He changed his name to Costello, believing that it sounded more American, and began building political connections that would serve him for decades. So again, this is prohibition time.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

Costello formed a crucial partnership with Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky. Unlike other bootleggers who focused on hijacking and violence, Costello's operation emphasized efficiency and protection. Again, we're talking about the bureaucracy of how these things go. I mean, Lucky Luciano, another handsome guy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, man, Luciano, man. Good looking even. You could see the scars on his face. But you get, that's a handsome man, right? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, wait, where are his scars?

[B]

You can kind of tell there's imperfections on his face.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, they're slight, but you gotta.

[A]

Wonder if that's from crime though, or like the way Frank Sinatra got him.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Have you ever heard this? Sinatra had these scars on his face. If you look at pictures of him, you're like, oh, wow. Like, I never noticed it as a kid. Yeah. And apparently. And I was like, after I heard about, oh, he's got scars. Must have been like a street ruffian. Of course. Yeah, apparently. And again, we probably should fact check this. It's from when he was born. The doctor was using, like forceps to extract him from his mother's womb.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And, like, scarred up his baby face.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

That is. That is crazy. Because then you. Because you just associate. Associate. I guess you associate, like earlier times with hardship. So when you see scarred faces, you're like. Things were even like old blue eyes. You know what I mean? You're like, oh, they just didn't have the medical dexterity that we have.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But it is.

[B]

It lends itself to the romance of it.

[A]

Yeah. Look at that. Using forceps the doctors tugged away of ripping his. I mean, that must be. That would be so sad. I just had a baby. The idea of getting your baby, and you're like, well, you guys just got here. You already fucked him up. Like, what the hell?

[B]

Already the world is pain.

[A]

Yeah, I'd be so. I'd be pissed for sure. See, that's why I'm not even getting my boy. My boy snipped up.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'm not doing none of this, I think.

[A]

Enough, enough.

[B]

My only issue ever with that has been because when kids draw dicks, they always draw the circumcised ones. So that would be the only moment I would imagine you go, I feel alone.

[A]

But later on, because you would graffiti in class and it would be like, why did you just. What is this exactly? What is that?

[B]

You can't talk about whatever your thing is because you're like, I have a different looking one. But then, like, obviously later on, I've heard the sensation is better. So you got that going on. I think once again, going back to the homeschool thing, I think this will age. Okay. But until. And they got to be.

[A]

There's kids got to take care of it. Okay. And my kid will be. He's going to be the MLK of uncut dicks.

[B]

Yeah, man. Draw them the way yours is uncut gems, man. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, that is wild. As a kid, I never. Anytime I ever drew penises, I always drew them the Japanese way. What? Sounds just pixels. That's how I do it. That is true. If you look at any of my old textbooks, it'll just be pixels and be like, did you draw a Japanese penis? It's not where you thought I was going with that.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's called misdirection, people. All right, welcome to the show.

[B]

Yeah. I thought I was like, wow, you were so educated early on. Even your dick drawing was, like, cultured.

[A]

Yeah, it's from the shogun area. Okay. It didn't have pubes. It was just one long ponytail.

[B]

It's like a gallery in your notebook.

[A]

All right, let's talk about old Costello. All right, so Again, he's kind of making his way. He's linking up with Lucky Luciano, Meyer Lansky. He builds relationships with the police and politicians. He creates a legitimate front company, develops a sophisticated distribution network, and maintains peace with other gangs through negotiations, associations. His genius lay in understanding the power architecture of the place he was living. He cultivated relationships with Supreme Court justices, police commissioners, congressional representatives. His influence was so extensive that he was known to make and break political careers. In 1940, investigators documented his control over judicial appointments in police promotions in New York City. He worked super hard to appear legitimate. He had an office in a Manhattan high rise. Again, very different from Al Capone being like, you know, four floors, of course, or whatever he had going on. This guy is like. No, I.

[B]

Second floor is. The third floor is guns. Yeah, for sure, man.

[A]

No, he had a Manhattan high rise.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He was an investor. He had a portfolio of legitimate businesses. He had regular attendance at charity events, and again, like we said, relationships with businessmen. Unlike other mob guys who were living in guarded compounds, Costello resided in Central park west apartment building, sharing elevated elevators with Manhattan's elite.

[B]

Wow, man.

[A]

So you look at this guy and you're like, how does. How does anything go wrong? Sure, let me tell you. The Kefir Kefavar Committee. Kefavar. Can we edit? Thank God we're not.

[B]

The rest of the episode is you just figuring out that work.

[A]

No, this is. You guys know what it is. Come on, everyone. I just haven't had my coffee or whatever. Yeah, I love when people say that's like such. Like a boomer. Oh, I haven't had my coffee.

[B]

You killed a guy.

[A]

The Kefavar committee hearing in 1951, where he famously refused to let his face be televised. An assassination attempt by Vincent the chin Giganti in 1957, which left him wounded but alive. He died of natural causes in 1973. One of the major crime figures to do so.

[B]

Wow. That really is best case scenario to go out.

[A]

Not bad, right? You know, not bad. Yeah. I mean, some guys make it to the end. I mean, there's a. There's a. Interesting story. I talked to a guy, Thomas Mayer, who wrote this book about how the CIA contracted two crime guys to basically try to take out Fidel Castro.

[B]

Oh, sure, Right, right, right.

[A]

Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they, like, the CIA, worked with them. And there was another guy that had worked with mob that was kind of working with the CIA. Da, da, da. And the way Thomas Mayer says it, Traffic Conte was his name, and he was Like a South Florida guy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he basically points out. He's like. Because Trafficante, like, he ended up dying of, like, you know, old age in, like, the 90s or something. They were basically like, you know, he might be the guy that really won at the end of the day, because I think Giancana was taken out, and then Roselli was taken out, and then, you know, Fidel never got taken out, and Trafficante was never taken out. So they kind of look and they're like, oh, were any of these mob guys actually working with Fidel and, like, tipping him off? And as a result, like, the two of them kind of. You know, his kind of. The way he put it was like, whoever makes it to the end are the guys that, like, played the smartest.

[B]

Totally, man. Yeah. I think. I think that's what you want. And then.

[A]

Yeah, man, that kind of makes sense.

[B]

No, it does. And Luciano, I mean, he was. I believe he was responsible for the organization element of it. I think he held a meeting at the. I want to say, the Blackstone Hotel in Chicago in 31, where he was sort of like. He made the pivot from, like, not be governed by one boss, but five bosses that became known as the five families that were residing. So he kind of. I think he laid a little bit of the foundation for, like, the architecture of the organization of it.

[A]

Let's talk about La Coluchi. Let's end with this guy. All right. Basically, I think he's also connected with Meyer Lansky, which is another fascinating guy, and Bugsy Siegel.

[B]

Right. They kind of rolled together.

[A]

I believe so. Okay, so perhaps no relationship better illustrated Luciano's break from the old world thinking than his partnership with Meyer Lansky. They met as teenagers on the streets of the Lower east side. Lansky, a Jewish kid who ran a craps game in Luciano, a Sicilian million trying to muscle in. Instead of fighting, they form an alliance that would last basically their whole lives. Lansky brought mathematical precision to the operation. He would calculate odds instantaneously and spot cheating in any gambling operation. While Luciano provided muscle and connections, Lansky provided financial acumen. He pioneered money laundering techniques that are still used today, setting up offshore banking operations in Switzerland and Cuba.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Their partnership proved that the future of crime. Crime lay in brains over brutality. When Luciano was imprisoned, Lansky managed his interests, ensuring his partner received his share of the profits. Wow. Best buds.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

Upon Luciano's deportation to Italy, Lansky handled his American interest, sending him up to $100,000 a month in the early 1950s.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The event that shaped Luciano's vision of organized crime was the.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

That's another hard word. Bloody Castellammarese war. That one I feel like. I think.

[B]

I feel like you got that one.

[A]

The bloody Castellammaresi War in 19.

[B]

Trouble. But that one was fine.

[A]

I don't know how I nailed it. The hell? 1930. 1931. The conflict between Joe Messeria, Joe the Boss, and Salvatore Maranzano had turned New York streets into a war zone. Luciano initially alleged that Masseria aligned with Myria, but secretly plotted with Lansky and other young mobsters to eliminate both old guard bosses. The hit on my seria was meticulously planned. 1931. Luciano was playing cards with my seria at a Coney island restaurant called Nueva Via Tamaro. Luciano excused himself to the bathroom. Four gunmen, including Bugsy Siegel and Joe Adonis, entered and shot Myria to death. The murder became famous. Mysterio was found with an ace of spades clutched in his hand. Crazy.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

And just like you had mentioned before, he. He basically put together the Commission. The five families of New York. Luciano, Profaki, Gagliano, Bonanno and Mangiano. Al Capone from Chicago. Stefano Magiodino from Buffalo, and Frank Milano from Cleveland. These became known as the Commission. They established specific rules. No member could be killed without Commission approval. No one could sleep with another member's wife. That's good. No dealing drugs to children. These. These are what the Ten Commandments should have. I feel like Moses kind of dropped the ball. Or maybe God, rather.

[B]

What a funny sketch. He comes down from the mountain. Moses says it attacks, but it is kind of.

[A]

Don't covet that neighbor's toilet.

[B]

Yeah, that's in there.

[A]

It's in there for sure.

[B]

They're just more specific.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Hey, stop banging.

[B]

Right, Right. No drugs to children.

[A]

Find that territory. Disputes should be settled by a vote. All members had to be of Italian descent, although non Italian associates like Lansky were given equal status. Then there's this guy, Thomas Dewey. You probably heard of him. He sort of led the prosecution of Luciano and revealed the extent of his office operation. Through testimony, it emerged that Luciano's prostitution re encompassed 200 brothels across New York City. Protection payments from thousands of independent prostitutes. A complex system of payoffs to police and politicians. Medical care for sex workers.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Crazy, right?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

What a nice guy.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But also, you got to think, it's like, okay, I have these women. If they get sick, of course, on me. So it's like, yeah, you got to take care of the. Take care of the problem.

[B]

What a roundabout way to become progressive.

[A]

Yeah. You're like, hey, we need universal health care for the prostitutes.

[B]

Right. So pragmatic sex workers just born out of being pragmatic. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[A]

This guy was an ally. I had no idea. I had no idea.

[B]

Impeccable voting record.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we need to look back. Like, at the time, people were like, so backwards. I mean, what year was this even, like the 30s or something?

[B]

Yeah, I think it's 30s.

[A]

The full scope of Luciano's assistance during World War II included mobilizing dock workers to watch for German saboteurs tours. So this is a fascinating little ripple. Luciano was basically like, working with the US Government and was actually, I think at one point even like, using his connections in Sicily to try to like, attack the, like, Axis powers and like the, you know, the fismos in Italy. Crazy. Provided intelligence about suspicious activities in the ports using mob connections to assist the Allied invasion of Sicily and help the US Navy identify landing points in Sicily using his local contacts.

[B]

Man, that's what, like, you put that. That's like so noble, like, just like country wise. That's what I think is so funny about like the sort of like, oh, he like, he fought the Axis of Evil back to like John Gotti. Like, he gave out turkeys.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

It's just such a, like large scale, small scale nobility.

[A]

I mean, this is better than the turkeys, obviously.

[B]

That's what I mean.

[A]

He's straight up, just like helping.

[B]

He's helping us win.

[A]

A war hero.

[B]

Yeah, he's a war hero. He has a war hero. Yeah.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

That's incredible.

[A]

And then in Havana, Luciano and Lansky built a gambling empire that would serve as a template for Las Vegas, right? That was like the spot, like Havana back in the day was like popping.

[B]

Totally, man.

[A]

The Hotel Nacional casino established relationships with the Cuban President. Batista created a network of hotels and casinos and set up drug trafficking routes again through the, through the Caribbean. Seems like a common thread, you know what I mean?

[B]

I wonder too, because Castro comes in and cleans all that up, right? That's his big thing.

[A]

He closes up all the casinos. That's where Trafficante, by the way, was arrested. A lot of them got killed. But Trafficante was in prison and then he got let out, right? And so some people think like, oh, maybe he made a deal.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense that they didn't.

[A]

Take him out, but he was able to go back and basically feed info to you know, to Castro, allegedly.

[B]

Who even knows?

[A]

I mean, I'm just a kid. I'm just a good. I'm just like.

[B]

I'm just a homeschooled boy.

[A]

I'm just a homeschooled comedian trying to make it in New York City. You know what I mean? Just. Everyone back off.

[B]

Yeah, here I am. I'm a loving husband. You know what I mean? I'm a loving husband. I have a beautiful niece and nephew. How great would it be if I was a layer to walk the earth and do my little doodats at night?

[A]

Yeah, you don't want to deal with us. We're just, you know, we're nobody.

[B]

We're so small scale.

[A]

So what happens to this guy? Right? He seems like he's got everything figured out. He's helping the. Helping the boys.

[B]

Of course. Yeah.

[A]

Take down Hitler, take down young Hatty. Like, how is it? Like, how could things go wrong? I'll tell you. In Italy, Luciano, you know, he lives like a king, right? He's basically deported. I'm pretty sure he gets kicked back to Italy. Say, hey, just stay here. Which is not so bad, of course.

[B]

At least your classic go to your room where you have all your video games.

[A]

This is perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm just going to go to Naples.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

His Naples apartment became a pilgrimage site for American gangsters seeking advice that, I mean, I just couldn't even imagine. Like an American gangster you go back to. Go back to the motherland. You go up to his apartment, like, meet him.

[B]

Yeah. From his. That's a lot from his perspective, you know what I mean?

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, who's coming over today?

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Right. Okay. Yeah. Just okay? It's my Sunday, but sure.

[A]

And he's, you know, ostensibly a smart guy, and some of these mob guys he's dealing with are probably dumb.

[B]

That's what I mean.

[A]

And he's got to talk, and they're.

[B]

Like, so we shot all these people.

[A]

And everyone was mad at us. And he. He's got to be like, yeah, dude, you can't just kill people. Like, you got to be a little sharper, right?

[B]

He's used to talking to Meyer Lansky about business margins.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

He's got to sort of break it down for these dumbbells. That's what I mean. It must be so frustrating.

[A]

Yeah. We dumped him in the lake in the daytime. Like, oh, you should do it at the night. Do it at the night time because there's no light. Very smart. Yeah. He basically just kind of like, lives his life. He's sort of a pilgrimage site. And he says he's, like, doing interviews and stuff. He does interviews with journalists where he claims that he never had a legitimate job in his life. I never filed a tax return, but I built something bigger than General Motors, only I built it with brains, not muscles. All right, I'm not going to disagree with you there, but maybe we'll look at the track record. It seems like there's some muscle involved, but, hey, you're lucky.

[B]

Of course you have to say that. You know what I mean? You're not going to bring up these indiscretions, of course.

[A]

I just love that he's bringing up GM being like, those guys. Those guys are criminals. And maybe he is. You know what I mean?

[B]

But that's what you have to do, right? You have to be like, we know who we are. But also, look at them. This is who we are. So then, if you look at things in that light, not so bad, folks.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, the problem is, you got a point. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, no, totally, man.

[A]

You start reading his manifesto, you're like, wait a second. The corporations are enslaving the American people. Uh, oh, wait, we're lying about WMDs to kill millions of American young men? Wait a second.

[B]

Yeah, you just have to overlook a couple pages where you're like, all right, we don't call them that anymore, but, you know, sure.

[A]

He eventually dies in 1962. His funeral in Naples is attended by hundreds. Back in New York, Meyer Lansky arranged a second service. No cameras were allowed, but the FBI surveillance noted that over 300 mafia members attended. Lansky reportedly said at the service, he was the best friend I ever had.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

You get emotional when you hear about these things.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Nothing better than friendship.

[B]

Totally. And that's been a tale of friendship.

[A]

Then a day. It's really what it is, you know? I mean, it's like, hey, what was the best part? Was it the prostitution? Or was it the drugs? Was it the gang gambling? It's really just the friends you make along the way. You know what I mean? That's what the real Mafia is. It's the brotherhood.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it's the nights we spent up all night, you know, just going through duffel bags of money, cracking jokes. Right?

[A]

Like, that's what it's really all about. But the structure that Luciano created proved remarkably durable. The Commission continued to meet until the famous Mob trials of the 80s. Even today, the five families retain the basic organizational structure that he created his vision of organized crime as a modern business enterprise, transcending old world vendettas and ethnic rivalries, fundamentally changed how crime enterprises operate. Most importantly, Luciano understood that violence was bad for business. As he once told an associate, there's no percentage in killing when a deal can be made. The philosophy of pragmatism over vendetta would influence organized crime for generations to come.

[B]

Yeah, so there you have it, man. It's great.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, what is. What is it? Who is bigger? Okay, so, yeah, I guess this is interesting. Like, of these guys we've talked about, how would. How would we rank them?

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

Like, what do we. What do we think in terms of size? I mean, I think you got to give Luciano, like. Like S tier stats. I think you got to put him up there just because he sort of built the foundation of the whole thing. Yes. And then you might almost go Escobar, because.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

Just in terms of sheer size, I mean, of course, you know, and legacy.

[B]

In terms of just Netflix.

[A]

The thumbnail for this episode. You know what I mean? Like, that's how much weight this guy's throwing around. And that one Kanye album.

[B]

Oh, yeah, great. Life of Pablo Life was a great album.

[A]

Exactly. People are like, oh, it's about Picasso. No, no, no, no.

[B]

Oh, no. It's. Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think I would put him, too. And then, yeah, Capone, you could make a good argument just because he was such a, you know, iconic.

[B]

I think so, man. I think name recognition alone, it's like, you gotta put him. You gotta put him three.

[A]

Yeah. And then Frank Costello, you know.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you got.

[A]

He's cool. I put him. I put him below.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I'm trying to think, is there anyone else that we.

[B]

Was there another person?

[A]

Oh, and then I put your dad probably at number one.

[B]

Oh, sure. Yeah. Loyalty.

[A]

Yeah, he's crazy. Shout out to him, but, yeah, I guess. Oh, John Gotti.

[B]

Yeah, I guess I would put him. And this is only because in the legacy of these people, I think I would put him five.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah, I don't think.

[B]

But this is a hard list, folks. This isn't, you know, this. We're talking about the top of the top here.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there you have it. Those are some of the most notorious mobsters and gangsters of our time. We ranked them. We put them in a list. We went through all the interesting details, and. And I guess, more importantly, we became closer friends.

[B]

Oh, yeah, this was great, dude.

[A]

And as we know, that is what it's all about. It's that friendship.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Just like Meyer and Lucky.

[A]

Two of us, actually, now that I think about it. I might put Luigi number one. I might put Luigi Mangione. Yeah.

[B]

Let's see what he shakes out, man.

[A]

Exactly. If anyone is interested in hearing more about your story or if they want to know more about your family and your connections, where can they hear about this?

[B]

Well, yeah, I'm doing my show again at Second city in Brooklyn, December 12th at 9:30. And then Jeff, follow me on Instagram at comedian Anthony DeVito, and that's about it.

[A]

Hell, yeah. Thank you guys so much for watching again. We got merch. We got here. I didn't.

[B]

I didn't really show you guys the back.

[A]

You can check it out here. Okay.

[B]

Can you.

[A]

Did you see it?

[B]

I think you can see it. Yeah.

[A]

You can see it. All right. They're dope. I really like them. We spent a lot of time on getting them organized. So this will be releasing later this week, so be on the lookout for that. Also, tomorrow I'm doing a show at Mary Lou. It's in, like, sort of St. Mark's area of New York City. So if anyone's in New York, I'd love to see you. Come on out. There's tickets on my Instagram. If you're around, you want to do a spot, I mean, by all means, pop by. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Come on. Come on through. And again, if you want to throw something up on this shelf behind me. We'll have a PO Box dropping shortly. Sorry about the wifi issue. Not great. All right. But we're going to get these things ameliorated going forward. Thank you all so much. This has been another episode of Camp. See you next time.