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- [00:00]
A
There were well over 100 million people in the Americas at the time of Columbus. The population of Europe at the same time was 88 million people. We have this conditioning of, like, scattered bands of roaming nomads in the wilderness. So as a result, we are left to our imagining much more than deep understanding.
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B
This is Anton Troyer. He is a professor of Ojibwe at Bemidji State University and the author of many books about Native American cultural practices and history. And today we are asking every question you've ever wanted to know about Native Americans, but you were too afraid to ask. Some like this. The Washington Redskins. Is that offensive? We also go through the history of the Ojibwe and many other Native American tribes and their experience with the colonizers of the French and the British empires. And what was life like prior to colonization? What were the Native Americans doing and how were they living? You will also learn ceremonial customs, the spiritual practice of the Ojibwe. How do they name their children? What happens when people are born? How do boys become men? And ultimately, what is the spiritual component to the soul, to the human, when people die? This conversation is absolutely amazing. Anton is professional, and I learned a lot just from sitting down and chatting with him. So sit back, relax, and welcome to Camp Anton Troyer. Thank you so much for being here.
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A
Hey, thanks for having me.
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B
Absolutely. Thank you for joining me in my. In my tent here. Yeah.
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A
You have to have the only tent in Brooklyn.
- [01:36]
B
Yeah, I think so. Not. We're deep in the woods. We're far away. We're somewhere in Montana, I think. Yes. No, I think we're the only tent in Brooklyn. This is my goal. I think that the greatest human communication exists out in nature, where human beings kind of started and have existed for the majority of the Anthropocene, for the majority of our time as Homo sapiens. And then unfortunately, we got all. Got all arrogant with her big buildings and stuff. And so I think these goods, obviously, the convenience of maternity is nice, but I think we lose something about what it means to be human. So we gotta go back to the woods. You gotta go outside to go inside is what I always say, which is why I'm excited to chat with you. You're a very fascinating person. You have a really interesting family history that I think is an interesting thing to unpack. Also a father of nine kids, which is awesome. I just want to point that out up top. I love that you are a holder and an expert in a specific native language, the Ojibwe.
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A
Right.
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B
Maybe not The Ojibwe. Ojibwe? Is that your name?
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A
Ojibwe.
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B
Okay. Amazing. Also an author, educator, teacher, professor, all of the above. And you wrote a book. That got my attention. Actually, I need to give a quick shout out. You got onto my radar. From a gentleman named Jacob Morton from Duluth, Minnesota. Him and his family are. Can you help me pronounce this?
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A
Let's check it out. Oh, yeah. Kuchaqing First Nation.
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B
Kuchiqing First Nation. So he is a part of that tribal group in Ontario, and he requested that we speak. He said if you're trying to learn anything about native language, culture, customs, you're the guy. So shout out to him. And thank you so much for agreeing to the opportunity.
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A
Hey, thanks for having me in and thank you for thinking of me all the way from Coochiching First Nation. I do go through Couchiching pretty often. I live in Northern Minnesota, in Bemidji. And our property actually is partially on and partially off the Leech Lake Reservation. So I get to live in my home community. And one of my sons is an enrolled member at Nigegusa Minikoning First Nation, which is right next door to Kuching. So we get up there pretty often.
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B
So can you tell me about the Ojibwe, the group that you grew up in, that you are a member of? What can you tell me about them as a cultural group? Again, I don't want to group all Natives or First Nation people as a monolith. And I know there's a vast diversity amongst the tribal groups. So can you tell me about yours?
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A
Sure, I'm happy to do that. Maybe first of all, for the folks listening in today, there's a lot of diversity within Native communities in the United States. There are 574 different federally recognized tribes. And just like, you know, it wouldn't work to say, what do white people think about abortion, good or bad, and give one simple, easy answer. We know there's a diversity of views and opinions and, you know, experiences and so forth. It's like that for us, too. So, I mean, I got a house full of Natives. I don't even know what they're thinking.
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B
Most of the time.
- [04:51]
A
Can really only represent me. But the Ojibwe are one of the larger groups. They're about 600,000 Ojibwe people. And our population straddles the U.S. canadian border. So on the Canadian side, there are 141 Ojibwe First Nations. And in the United States, there are Ojibwe communities across Michigan. Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, and even into Montana. And within the Ojibwe population, it's probably most accurate to say we are a collection of interrelated dialect and cultural groupings. So we have lots of things in common, certainly feel lots of affinity towards one another. But just imagine where I live, one of the staple foods is wild rice, and it grows in muddy, shallow bottomed lakes and rivers. You go out there with a canoe and a couple of sticks, two people, and you bend the stalks over the canoe and knock the seeds into your canoe, parch it, and then it's food. And it might sound like super primitive, but I've been out at Lower Rice Lake on the White Earth Reservation. When they open up the rice harvesting season, 200 guys will go out there to knock rice, and they'll knock £50,000 of rice by noon. And so now it's, you know, it's an ancient custom, but it's a multimillion dollar business. It's in all the grocery stores in New York and everywhere else. And so wild rice doesn't even grow in the western Ojibwe communities because you're out into the Canadian and American plains and, you know, and you go to the far eastern edges of Ojibwe country on the Quebec border, it doesn't grow there either. But that's like Ojibwe soul food in Minnesota, Wisconsin, you know, much of Ontario and Manitoba, just to give a hint for, like, cultural variation within that group. That said, I mean, we communicate with each other all the time. There's a lot of exciting stuff going on with language, revitalization, you know, political mobilization, all kinds of things. And we certainly communicate with one another and with lots of other tribes, too, and work together to try to get things done. But we're not, as you mentioned, a monolith.
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B
Right. And your mother was Ojibwe?
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A
Yes. Oh, wow.
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B
And did she grow up on rez?
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A
She did, yeah. She had an amazing childhood. You know, she was born in the Cass Lake Indian Hospital, which is on the Leech Lake Reservation. She's actually an enrolled member at White Earth, which is the next res over. Back in the 1800s, the US government was trying to relocate Ojibwe people to White Earth, so you could. They were forcing people to get enrolled at White Earth rather than their community of origin. So she was enrolled over there as a citizen, but never lived there. She was always resident on the Leech Lake reservation. Anyway, she was born there, lived her first 18 years on the reservation, which is a big place. It's about 40 miles by 40 miles. There are 10,000 tribal members. And her whole childhood, she met one professional native person ever.
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B
Wow.
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A
So out of 10,000 people, they couldn't find one to be a teacher, a social worker, a banker, a police officer. And it wasn't because none of those 10,000 people wanted the job, and it wasn't because none of those 10,000 people were capable of such a job. It's because even in a native community, the systems were that effective at excluding native people from positions of power and economic mobility.
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B
How do those exclusions work?
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A
Well, the way they've worked in so many other places, sometimes it was just people being jerks, but oftentimes it's just with the nature and structure of the systems themselves. So to be an educator in America, you need to go to college, you need a educator license. And there are lots of hoops to jump through, and there are barriers at every step of the way to finishing high school, to going to college, to navigating teacher licensure programs, and then finding gainful employment, especially in your community of origin, you know, so there's so many different things to unpack. And it was pretty interesting. The one professional native person my mom met, and she had a pretty visceral experience with poverty. They'd pull all the kids from school for two weeks at a time to harvest wild rice, for hunting, for fishing, and for the production of maple syrup and sugar. That's eight weeks out of school right there, you know. But the one professional person she met was the school nurse. So she did finish high school, and she thought, maybe I could do that. So she ended up going to nursing school, and one of her first jobs was working for our tribe's health program. And she thought, even here, native people are getting pushed around. Enough of that. And she went back to school and got a law degree. She was actually the first female native attorney in the state of Minnesota. So then when I was a kid, she'd bring me with her to court, and she'd say, you just sit there. Don't say anything. So, you know, I'd sit there and not say anything. And I couldn't really remember her court cases well, but I remember stuff. I remember she was the only woman in court. I remember that she and her law partner, Paul Day, they were the only natives in court. And I would just come walking out of there thinking, you know, what? We can do stuff. It's the D in the dei diversity representation, role models. It matters. And my mom was so smart, she could have been anything. She could only imagine herself being the one thing she saw another native person do. And, you know, it opened my mind to the possibilities of what I could do when I saw her and her law partner. And by the way, we just had the retirement celebration for Paul Day, and they asked me to speak. And I had to say, you were the first native man I ever saw doing something professional. And There are about 300 people in the room. And they were all native judges, lawyers, educators and social workers. I said, look how far we've come and think how much further we still have to go and what a difference one person can make.
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B
Yeah, it is interesting how much representation in that sense makes a difference. You know, like there's just little stories where people just kind of do the things that the people that they're around, that they identify with also do. Like even, you know, an immigration stories coming to America. Like, people will do industries that their friends are doing that their families are doing. One that I always find interesting is Vietnamese immigrants come to America and typically work in aesthetics. Nail and manicure, pedicure. And I believe it was one woman in the 50s that came that started the first one and created an entire industry that basically took up an entire sort of like migratory group. The same with Indian from Southeast Asia and like, hotel businesses. That there was one guy that came and you can track it to this individual person. It wasn't that long ago. And that one person setting an example of, here's how things are done, here's what we can do in this place, and showing the rest of the people that were, you know, the same ethnicity, same nation, same language, here's what we can do, and here's how we can sort of function in this new location. And to that point, yeah, it's interesting because I don't know if Americans, at least for myself, don't recognize how much that matters. When you are of the minority, when you are of the out group, seeing people sort of moving up the career ladder in that way.
- [13:12]
A
Yeah, I think that's that every, you know, fault line in our society. So when you have any particular profession circle, be it social, political, economic, that's dominated by one particular group of people, you have both cultural and sometimes overt barriers of entry to people who are outside of that group. And then you also have, you know, the pull of affinity, you know, for those who are within that group. And so, you know, it. It makes a difference. You know, we see this, like, women have been denied gainful employment or the same wages in so many different circles. So oftentimes when there are professions that have been, you know, where women are more dominant, then it is more appealing and easier for women to find entry into those positions. And of course, they're trailblazers breaking into all kinds of other fields, too. But you have to blaze the trail, you know, and so there's both the pull of affinity space and there's the push away, you know, that you find in a lot of places. So a lot of professions were dominated by white folk, and there were overt barriers of entry to people of color. And it's still an ongoing effort to break those down and in so many other regards, too. And I do feel we've made tremendous progress, but certainly we got plenty more to do.
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B
Right. What can you speak to the history of the Ojibwe? I know when tracking Native history in my mind again. Oh, I wanted to bring this up also the book that you wrote that I love the title and correct me on the title. I don't know the exact wording. Basically, all the questions about Indians that you've always wanted to ask, but you were too afraid.
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A
Oh, yeah. Everything you wanted to know about Indians but were afraid to ask.
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B
Yes. So before we actually go to the history, we've said the I word a few times.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
We've said Indian, which again, as a white guy, I don't know the sort of cultural implication of that. So what is the strategic choice behind using that word? And what does the nature of the word Indian mean to Natives today?
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A
Yeah, so words matter and vocabulary choices matter. And unfortunately, this is an unsettled debate within Native circles yet today.
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B
Sure.
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A
Which can make it really difficult, especially for folks outside of Native circles. But we've seen this happen in many, many groups. Is it Hispanic, Latino, Latina, Latinx, Latin, A. You know, and we've seen this with, you know, black, African American, certainly not colored people, but maybe people of color when you're looking for an inclusive label, you know, and so you just have to get familiar with what's going on in the landscape. I would love in the United States for us to do what they did in Canada, where they had a national conversation, representatives from each of the Native communities. And they said instead of using Indian or Aboriginal, which were the terms that had been in use in Canada, they said, we'll dispense with those. We'll call the communities instead of reserves. We'll call them first nations, and we will call the people from there first nations people. They still had discussions there. So they actually have three labels in Canada. So it's first nations, the Arctic Indigenous folks still prefer Inuit. And then there's a third group, Metis, which has their own really fascinating history. They actually have their own language, Michif, which is a combination mainly of Ojibwe and Cree verbs and French nouns. And his, you know, racially diverse population.
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B
Oh, interesting.
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A
So that's Canada. Now, here in the United States, we haven't gotten there and it's hard to have a conversation that everybody is well represented in or get all of them working together. And I think as a general rule, for folks who are listening in today, Native American and Indigenous are considered politically correct. You're not going to hurt somebody's feelings. You won't offend them, that's fine. But they are a little ambiguous. So if you have someone who's Maori, from New Zealand and they're here in America going to college, they won't identify as white, black, they're indigenous. But that's different from being North American Indigenous. So now you're back to a lot of syllables just to provide clarity. But once you've established context, those are pretty commonly used by, you know, Native and non Native folks. However, there's another layer to Indigenous identity which is, by the way, quite complex. Like who's Native and who decides is not a simple question. But being Native is not just being part of a racial or ethnic group. It's also a political identity. So there are 574 federally recognized reservations in the United States. Someone who is a member of one is a citizen of their native nation as well as the United States. So it's like dual citizenship. So just like, what does it take to be a German citizen? Well, there's kind of complex. There's a little process. If you're born there, you can become a German citizen. If you have parents who are from there or marry someone from there, you can become a German citizen even if you weren't born there. There's a process for tribes having citizenship in your tribe. They've been hunting for the right way to have that included in the vocabulary. So as a result, the words American Indian have not been entirely abandoned, even though obviously Christopher Columbus was lost. Thought he was in China. No. Japan? No. India? Yes. And these are Indians. Boom. And it stuck. And it was obviously erroneous, but it's kind of hung around and it's been used by the American Indian Movement, the National Congress of American Indians. And it's kind of a way to differentiate those who have political status as a Native person versus just heritage or world indigenous. So it has A different kind of meaning because it speaks to that political status and that word is enshrined in American law and so forth. But obviously it's very politically incorrect, even though it has not been abandoned, including by Native folks. But usually that's the context as far as I'm concerned. We could just adopt, like Native nations, just a little different from our Canadian brothers and sisters. Use that for the political one. That would simplify a lot of things. We just haven't gotten there. So for me, I tend to have this conversation establish a context for our conversation. I'll probably use them all somewhat interchangeably, aware of their shortcomings, mainly as a means of setting up some safe space for the conversation. But I do think it's good, and I usually recommend people to do this. If you're working for a school, a program, doing business, then talk to your stakeholders, ask them what they prefer, then you can do that, and it puts you in touch with the Native folks you're working for or serving and gets you a get out of getting beat up around the ears card. We could all use one of those and then the conversation can proceed.
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B
This might be outside of your purview, but I know that there's a very sort of contested debate around the term Eskimo. And I asked, because you grew up obviously in the north, that term is obviously. I've heard different approaches to it, that it is antiquated, I've heard outright as a slur. I'm curious, again, you not necessarily being from the groups that might be Inuit, what is your impression of that term and how it's used amongst the people that it would be referencing?
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A
Oh, yeah. So in the Ojibwe language, the word is Eishkimu and it means raw eater and describes like a culinary practice, people eating raw seal meat and things like that. In the Cree language, it is Eskimu. They're linguistically related to the Ojibwe and has the same meaning. So a lot of the Inuit say, why should we use a word from a different tribe that describes our culinary practice as opposed to our word Inuit, meaning the people.
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B
Oh, that's what Inuit means.
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A
Yeah. So that's. I think actually many, perhaps most of the tribal terms of self reference are something like that.
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B
Like Mexicans will say, like la raza, like the race or like the people. Effectively the same thing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Oh, interesting.
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A
Yeah. But in any event, for the most part, you know, the origin was not a slur so much as a descriptor, but it has been received that way. You Know, the origin of the swastika was not evil, but there was new meaning ascribed to it.
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B
Yeah. So I think effectively every slur, like, I think every slur is description plus violence. And then it becomes a slur. It initially is a description plus the violence that's attached to it. Yeah.
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A
So for the most part, I'm like, power to the people. We can all say Inuit, since that's the preferred term. The only difference you'll have is that in Alaska, the Inuit population there, the Yupik Eskimo, have that as the formal name for their community. Their Inuit, who use Yupik Eskimo as a term of self reference. So that is, you know, a political label that's kind of embraced in that community. But they're aware of all of the history that we discussed. But there's so many other, you know, hundreds of Inuit communities, and they're like, across Canada. It is Inuit. It is not Eskimo. Get it? Right.
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B
Interesting. Okay, now, I would love to talk to, obviously, like, the current state of, like, political reservation affairs and all the, you know, intersectional issues and benefits that go along with that topic. I think it would be helpful to kind of outline the history like we mentioned before. So where could you even say the Ojibwe begins? I know this is an ancient culture, so I don't know if there is, like, a genesis point, but how would you sort of unpack Ojibwe history?
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A
Oh, yeah. Well, let's talk about the history of white people and sum it all up. Yeah. So a couple of things that might be helpful for framing the conversation about, like, who are the Ojibwe and what is the history? One thing is this for all human beings. All cultures change over time. They change way faster than most people realize. When I went to high school, they still made us read Geoffrey Chaucer, who's, like, one of the first human beings ever to write anything down in English. Yeah, I could barely read that stuff.
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B
Yeah.
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A
The oh ye. Oh ye. You know, he was only writing 600 years ago.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And that's a language widely spoken, widely published all over planet Earth. Right. That's only 600 years of language change to get from Geoffrey Chaucer to where we're at now. So that happens with everybody. And I think there's some conditioning that especially people in America get. Well, really around the world about Native Americans. 87% of educational standards that even mention Native people are stories from before 1900. And there's stories of trauma, tragedy, and loss. So Americans are conditioned to Think of Natives as something that happened in the past, and that anything that doesn't look like it just stepped off the set from Dances With Wolves is considered inauthentic. And so that has something to do with the programming. And there are more movies about aliens than Native Americans. So as a result, we are left to our imagining much more than deep understanding. So we're running against that cultural conditioning, you know, just to describe who a people are.
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B
Right.
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A
That said, it's interesting. I was reading the Sapiens book, and then I was reading Origins by Jennifer Raft. She's pretty great. And Jennifer Raft's like a genomic mapper. And she identified, among other things, that Native American DNA has been separated from other human DNA for about 35,000 years plus. That's a pretty long time. So, like, the first evidence of human beings anywhere in Europe is around 40,000 years ago. And all of what is now England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales was covered in iceland. No humans 12,000 years ago. But there had already been humans here for well over 20,000 years by the time the first humans even made it to England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. So while there's this other part of the conditioning, we're all immigrants here, it's not accurate. Native people are indigenous of the land. And that being said, you got so many different changes. You know, there was nobody who would have called themselves English. You know, 12,000 years ago, there was nobody living there. You know, even a few thousand years ago, those words are pretty recent, as is the English language. So for the Ojibwe, although our DNA is ancient here in the Americas, the emergence of a distinct Ojibwe identity probably can be dated to a few thousand years ago. And originally, we had homes on the Atlantic coast. The land there was well suited for indigenous life there. Lots of fish in the ocean, lots of fish in inland lakes, Big game, small game, land well suited for indigenous agriculture. Get a population boom. And then when there are cyclical droughts or other things, then there's competition over resources. People are moving around. So the Ojibwe were on. Or the group they sometimes call Proto Algonquian. So there are 29 tribes that trace their origins to that group. Were moving westward from the Atlantic coast through the Great Lakes and really starting a little over 2,000 years ago. And the land was already occupied by other humans. So some interactions were peaceful and some were not. But as they moved around then separated from other folks, and the Proto Algonquian group kind of became 29 different tribes, of which the Ojibwe are one. By the time you get to the arrival of Europeans, you know, Columbus, 1492, it's really the. You know, you've got some Spanish explorers and stuff making it to Maine in, you know, the 1500s. But really, the sustained French colonial presence begins in the early 1600s. And then you have sustained interaction between the Ojibwe and Europeans. And the Ojibwe continued to expand throughout the early contact period at the expense of other tribes. And it wasn't always because the Ojibwe were fighting everybody. The Huron were depopulated by smallpox and other diseases, and the Iroquois, who were allied with the English, were fighting, trying to take land from their neighbors. And the Ojibwe fought back and kind of won that conflict, but absorbed some of the Huron territory to the east and then pushed west as well. Wow.
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B
I mean, the fact that you even say, like, yeah, they're moving around 2,000 years ago, just glancing over 2,000 years is like, that is so ancient. I mean, that's the time of Christ, roughly. Right. Like, just to put in, you know, terms for, you know, religious folks, I mean, it's. Yeah. Not a. Not a historical blip. You know, like, we look at America, like, oh, 300 years old. We're talking about 2000.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. It's remarkable to even put yourself in that time frame.
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A
Yeah. And our best estimates are that there were well over 100 million people in the Americas at the time of Columbus.
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B
Over 100 million?
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A
Yeah. Some estimates are close to 150 million. And our best estimates are that the population of Europe at the same time was 88 million people.
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B
Wow.
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A
But we have this conditioning of, like, scattered bands of roaming nomads in the wilderness.
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B
Mm.
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A
Chasing animals, you know? But this land had more people than Europe at the time of contact. Many more people relied much more on agriculture than just hunting and foraging. And so there are a lot of things that didn't jive, you know.
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B
Right.
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A
But I think some of that is America's difficulty dealing with its own history. Right. So the narrative of American exceptionalism, greatest nation on Earth and so forth, doesn't get fed very well by its ugly chapters. So it's easier to pretend that the ugly chapters didn't happen, because then that means there was room for everybody who came, and their coming wasn't taking anything from anyone, because we're the greatest nation on Earth. But I think most people know in their gut, if not their mind, that some bad stuff happened.
- [31:50]
B
What's up, people? We're gonna take a break really quick because it has been alleged that I smell. This has been said countless times. It is complete slander. I don't believe this to be true. But word has gotten out from the flagrant boys that apparently I smell. Again, it's not true. Anyone around me, ask anyone, and they'll confirm that this is not the case. But the people over at Mando, they reached out and they said, hey, if you're concerned about putting aluminum on your body, a lot of other products may have this. They might have aluminum that's actually inside their products. And you put it right on your lymph nodes. Mando said, hey, we have a solution for you, okay? Because this right here, whole body deodorant. That's right, whole body, no aluminum. None of the bad stuff that's going to, you know, potentially cause issues for you health wise. Okay? Look into it. You want to know what I love about Mando? Mando is clinically proven to control odor better than a shower with soap alone. Isn't that crazy? Stop showering. You don't need a shower anymore. Think about how many hours you waste showering every single day, right? Like, think about that in your total lifetime. It's probably years of your life spent showering with Mando. You get the time back to be making money with Mando. You're going to get a ton of great smelling scents and fragrances. You're going to get deodorant wipes. You're going to get this whole body deodorant package. This is an invisible cream. I mean, you can. I use all of them at the same time just so I can spend more time with my grandmother. So if you're interested in getting time back, spending time with your dying loved ones and not showering ever again, what I want you to do is I want you to go to Shopmando, that's S H-O-P Mando M A N--O.com and use the promo code Camp. That's right, Shopmando.com use the promo code camp. And for the listeners of this show, when you get the starter pack again, the starter pack is going to have everything you need. You're going to have a cream tube, you're going to get the solid stick deodorant. You're going to get two free products of your choice, like the deodorant wipes and you know, maybe the spray, maybe the, you know, mini body wash, whatever it is that you would like. You're going to get $5 off when use the promo code camp. So if you're interested, check it out. Shopmando.com now let's get back to the show. What's up guys? Let's take a break really quick because you're nostalgic. You remember in your childhood sitting down, watching cartoons, having a big old bowl of cereal. I tried doing that now as a 28 year old father, okay, I sat down with my little baby, I bought cereal from the store, I sat down and I looked at the box. Immediately was like, this is the craziest thing ever. It's so sugary. I tried taking six bites. I felt nauseous afterwards. I mean, it's insane that I used to be able to eat this stuff as a kid. And then I found out about this company called Magic Spoon. Yes, Magic Spoon is an amazing, wholesome, high quality alternative to some of the, you know, cereal brands used to eat as a little kid. I mean, they have amazing flavors. They got fruit ring circles. No idea what that could be. They have cocoa, not the P word. They got cocoa loops. And I wonder what that is. And you already know what it is, okay? And here's the crazy thing. It tastes as good and has less sugar and is actually great if you're someone that's counting carbs. If you're a carb conscious connoisseur, Magic Spoon is a thing for you. It's absolutely amazing. It tastes great. And I mean, in every, every serving you're going to get 12 grams of protein on the go. When you get the Magic Spoon cereal bars, you remember these cereal bars from when you were a kid, you would sit down, you would crush like a whole box of these. But now Magic Spoon has the alternative that is going to taste as good, if not better with 12 grams of protein on the go. So if you're interested and trying out some Magic Spoon, specifically the cereal bars, you can probably go to Amazon or find them at a grocery store. But if you want to be frugal, you want to, you know, save some money, use the promo code camp. That's right. Secret for all the people listening to this program, the promo code camp. C A M P. When you go to magicspoon.com camp, you're going to save $5 off your next order. So have some fun, feel like a kid again. Sit down with your kids and enjoy a nice big old bowl of cereal without all the guilt. Let's get back to the show.
- [35:52]
A
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month. Plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate, first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at Mintmobile.
- [36:22]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I think the.
- [36:23]
A
Yeah.
- [36:24]
B
I can understand the desire to turn away from the ugly chapters, but I think it's necessary to have the fullness of the scope of what the nation is and what it used to be and how it changed. And, you know, the good and the bad, I think need to be sort of brought to the light.
- [36:38]
A
Sure.
- [36:38]
B
Whether that's, you know, obviously native genocide or, you know, you know, African chattel slavery, like, I think all of it needs to sort of be. And those are only a couple. And I think it's important to recognize all of them and sort of reckon with it and confront it. I think going into it, it will be better for everyone.
- [36:56]
A
Yeah. As an individual human being, I think I've done some of my best growing and I have broken through and been able to love myself best when I've looked at my greatest shortcomings and my darkest days.
- [37:17]
B
Yeah. I've always heard this quote, what you seek is on the other side of what you fear the most.
- [37:20]
A
Right.
- [37:21]
B
And if there's an aversion to learning about the darkness, I don't know, I would encourage myself at least to, you know, go towards it.
- [37:29]
A
Right.
- [37:30]
B
Yeah.
- [37:30]
A
And, you know, shame can't stand the sunlight. Yeah. So if you shine some light on it, you know, we regain our dignity.
- [37:41]
B
Right.
- [37:42]
A
And so to me, addressing historical injustice and working on truth and reconciliation and things like that, it's not just about the poor and disenfranchised and those who have been oppressed throughout history or the fact that we have racially predictable disparities to just about everything in America, those things do need redress. But it's about America. Like great nations, like great human beings keep their word. So, yes, it sucks for those who got lied to by the US Government breaking every single treaty it made with Native people. But America hurts itself by not honoring its own treaties, you know, and so they can regain their integrity by saying, here's what we did and it really well be different now and have it not just be aspirational.
- [38:42]
B
You know, what was the contact point for the Ojibwe and European settlers. What was that timeframe, roughly?
- [38:51]
A
It's around 1600 when the French are trying to set up shop in the eastern Great Lakes, where there's sustained contact.
- [38:58]
B
And what do we know about those early days of contact? Are there writings that sort of disclose what that relationship was? Was it immediate conquest or was there some type of treaty that was enacted at that time?
- [39:13]
A
Oh, yeah. So we have lots of data. The Jesuits love to write stuff down. So Jesuit Relations is 76 volumes of Jesuit priests writing down everything that happened when they met the Ojibwe people in the 1600s.
- [39:28]
B
Wow.
- [39:28]
A
You know, so you got lots of records from side and perspective. Sure. You know, I think sometimes Americans have this view that the French were like good colonists or something. You know, they were nicer to the natives, but the French were trying to conquer the world and believed in chattel slavery. French is an official language for 30 countries. And it's not because they love French culture so much. Sure, Right.
- [39:57]
B
So, yeah, the nature of imperialism is.
- [40:00]
A
To get the colonization was. Was not a friendly practice.
- [40:04]
B
Right. Regardless of the culture. Sure.
- [40:06]
A
Right. But there were some distinct differences. You know, there were differences in power dynamics between European countries as well. Like France and England fought each other horribly for many, many hundreds of years. When France was setting up colonies, England was setting up colonies, and they were busy fighting wars with each other and trying to engage their native allies as proxies in those wars. There were more natives than Europeans fighting in some of those early conflicts.
- [40:34]
B
Right. I mean, this goes on today, you know, in different forms.
- [40:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, 25% of planet Earth was part of the British Empire. There weren't enough Englishmen to be a police officer on every corner.
- [40:46]
B
Right.
- [40:46]
A
They conquered the Irish by having a bunch of Irish dudes work in the British army to go fight their countrymen. You know, that's how it's always worked. And so that was kind of the design in the early stages of the colonial enterprise for both the French and the British. And things changed very, very quickly. So, you know, the French also had a. Some somewhat different practice than the British. So in the western Great Lakes, they sent only men and they said, you will marry native women and you will make babies and you will cement our trade and military alliances through marriage and family. And so that was a long standing practice. And it had distinct effects. Probably about a third of Ojibwe people have French surnames from that practice. And lots of people had mixed racial heritage. Of course, the French had an interesting custom where they would, you know, send the boys from Those unions back to France for a formal education, then bring them back to New France to like run the fur trade where they spoke beautiful French, English and Ojibwe. They were Catholic. They might be at least as brown as me, but they kind of had European disposition, culture, religion and so forth. The British didn't do that so much.
- [42:13]
B
Your last name is French?
- [42:15]
A
My last name is German. There's a whole nother story behind that.
- [42:17]
B
Okay, we'll get into that. Oh, this is your father's side. Yeah, I understand. Yes, yes, yes, yep.
- [42:21]
A
And so. But in any event, you know, after the conclusion of the French and Indian War, which the French lost, they abandoned New France. But that just meant they pulled the army out and they left all their people behind. So they're French speaking Quebecois in Canada, French speaking people in Louisiana. And the British are trying to supplant French trade networks. So who do they hire to run the British trade, but the same people who speak French, English and Ojibwe. And you only have 25 years transpire and you have the American Revolution. And then John Jacob Astor is one of the richest people on planet Earth, and America is trying to supplant the British trade networks and who they hire. And it's the same people. So, you know, you do have both a continuity to all of these different colonial families and enterprises, and then you also have really distinct differences. So the Ojibwe were in a pretty powerful position during the height of the French Empire because the French relied upon the Ojibwe for trade, military, and all kinds of other things. It starts to erode during the British era. And then the Americans, you have such a swell of new immigration and military pushes. It really disempowers people. And that was a tough time to be Native. Like, if you fought, you probably lost. And they'd come take your land, kill a bunch of people, confine you in a small area and feed you crap food, you know, but if you accommodated like the Cherokee, they're still marching you off on a Trail of Tears. They never fought the US Government, and it didn't work any better. So there was no way to win.
- [44:05]
B
Right.
- [44:05]
A
You know, and I do think that the Ojibwe fared a little better than many tribes during that era simply because it's a large population that straddled the U.S. canadian border. The British government was supporting the Confederacy during the U.S. civil War. The American government was less interested in fighting the British and the Confederates all at the same time. You know, it didn't mean that they weren't jerks or, you know, trying to manipulate people. But, you know, in Minnesota, Ojibwe people have land on all of the 10 largest lakes in the state of Minnesota. So in certain regards, we fared better than some tribes. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a rough experience with oppressions there too.
- [44:51]
B
Right. The intermarriage component with the Ojibwe and the French is very interesting. Was there sort of a reception from Ojibwe elders or chiefs that allowed this practice, or was this through, like, you know, bridal kidnapping and capture?
- [45:07]
A
Oh, you know, the Ojibwe pre contact people had a lot of freedom in who they wanted to marry and make a life with.
- [45:16]
B
Intertribal marriage was common at that time.
- [45:18]
A
Yep. But it was also at a period in time when people spent most of their time getting enough food. And I think throughout most of human history, marriage was largely an economic arrangement rather than a love arrangement.
- [45:37]
B
You know, were they agrarian at that time? Like, pre contact, Ojibwe covered a pretty big territory.
- [45:43]
A
The southern Ojibwe communities did a lot of agriculture, but throughout the Great Lakes, you had a lot of mixed hunting, foraging. It's actually a pretty diverse ecosystem and economy. So you got, you know, cereal grains with wild rice, you've got fish, big game, small game, agriculture, you know, foraging berries, different things like that. So actually, when you're not just dependent on one thing like the buffalo, you're more adaptable to change and disruption in.
- [46:17]
B
Your system, or you're hedging a little bit.
- [46:19]
A
And, of course, where do you find all the furs? But, you know, places like the Great Lakes. So it gave people, Ojibwe country, an advantage during that period of time, but it wasn't sustainable for all time.
- [46:35]
B
And they saw potentially the economic benefit of intermarriage, like, if they already didn't have a stigma.
- [46:41]
A
Well, yeah, you saw a variety of things. So the French were pressuring people, but the Ojibwe and French kind of needed each other. And I think there are patriarchy issues in all cultures, including indigenous cultures. So I think you started to see Ojibwe people pressuring the women and their families to just go ahead and do it, something that hadn't happened before. And it was in response to this French effort to, like, establish empire through the bedroom, you know, and so I think you saw changes in both. But, you know, and for the French, too, they couldn't just run over on the Ojibwe. They needed native allies to deal with the British and So you saw accommodations both ways. But the British, once the French were out of the picture, didn't need the Natives quite as much. Although Natives fought on both sides in the American Revolution and the War of 1812. But once you clear the War of 1812, that leverage that native people might have gathered from Europeans fighting each other really dissipated a lot.
- [48:00]
B
Interesting. And as far as Ojibwe warfare, did they have hot conflicts, so to speak, with the French and other settlers?
- [48:11]
A
Well, you know, all tribes had some history of warfare. You have really tremendous differences in how this played out in different areas. But the Ojibwe did not have, you know, the kind of conflict that Americans think of Crazy Horse and Custer or the Apache with the French. There was a little bit with the British and, you know, Pontiac's War in 1763, Ojibwe, Ottawa, Potawatomi and other groups formed an alliance and took over nine out of the 11 British forts in the Great Lakes. You know, so there was an active military defense of their interests. And then you saw it again in the War of 1812, Tecumseh. But for the most part, it was very different. When the Americans come, there were tribes that fought ferociously. The Shawnee, the Miami, and many others. The Ojibwe tended to threaten without fighting and negotiate for best terms.
- [49:29]
B
Interesting. And did that obviously. I don't think you could say greatly benefited, perhaps. But was there any short term benefit to some type of more diplomatic approach?
- [49:42]
A
It's really hard to run hypothetical scenarios because we just don't have a way to compare. Nobody made out great. Right. Whether you accommodated, fought, or somewhere in between, it usually didn't work out. And some tribes actually said, we won't fight and we won't even talk to them. We're going to go hide out in the mountains. You know, there are actually some groups that were literally hiding in the mountains in the 19 teens who had never fought. Wow. Who had never signed a treaty. But by the time, you know, white settlement comes to them, they're like, well, we didn't fight and we didn't sell. You can't make us move. And they're like, your cousin's already signed the treaty. You have to go to the reservation or we will incarcerate you. Wow. You know, so like, none of the methods saved anybody.
- [50:34]
B
Right.
- [50:36]
A
There wasn't a choice to say, I'm not selling anything.
- [50:40]
B
Right. It was either sell it to us, we're going to take it. I guess those are.
- [50:45]
A
Yeah. And there's more to say about the nature and Dynamics of how native people understood treaties at the time they were signed and things like that.
- [50:54]
B
I want to ask you about that because I had heard again, this might be folklore, urban legend, but I think in New York specifically, or perhaps somewhere near the northeast where we are now, that there was a sale that had happened amongst the Dutch and the native groups at the time for virtually nothing. And the story goes, and I'm sure you've heard this, is that the natives at the time said, you're going to buy the land. It doesn't make sense. The notion of ownership amongst these early tribal groups was so different to how European settlers had seen ownership in private property that they had sort of said, yeah, we'll sell it to you. You're not going to take it anywhere. It doesn't make sense that you can own a mountain. It's just, it is a common good that we all sort of see and, you know, sort of utilize. So sure, you can own it. It'd be like me selling you the Brooklyn Bridge. It's like, all right, go ahead and you own it. But then they didn't realize what that had technically signed them up for that that would then, you know, sort of incur incarceration or death or removal outright. So I'm curious, is there any credence to that story?
- [52:00]
A
Kind of. You know, certainly the concepts of land ownership were different. You didn't have, imagine the language in a treaty with words like, right, title convey, you know, these are all subjective.
- [52:17]
B
Terms that humans made up, right?
- [52:19]
A
Well, that Europeans made up.
- [52:21]
B
Right.
- [52:22]
A
And that natives didn't even have in the vocabulary.
- [52:24]
B
Right.
- [52:25]
A
And at the time of treaty, all of the native signators were not fluent or literate in English. Right. So it's hard to say they deeply understood everything that was going on. You know, but by the time, like if you're from a larger group like Ojibwe, where they would come back for another treaty every several years trying to piecemeal, whittle you away, by the time you get into round two or three, then they know what's up, right?
- [53:00]
B
And so does that create more hostility? Like, I'm curious, I guess, why the Ojibwe or some other type of tribal group is not just immediately confrontational or, you know, these unknown people are coming into their space trying to buy and sell things. But you know, maybe after a couple rounds of negotiations, things sort of go sour. Why not immediately fledge some type of.
- [53:19]
A
Full fronted war because they knew that it wasn't going to produce the desired result.
- [53:28]
B
And what was that based off of, had they seen other groups that had gone to combat with European settlers and.
- [53:34]
A
Not go well, yes, they had seen other groups fight and lose it all. Often Native leaders were brought to Washington, D.C. to parlay, and they're looking around going, oh, my God, there's no way to kill them all. Wow. And so by the time they're looking at it, they're saying, I want to live. Right?
- [53:58]
B
So now, if you want my kids to live some negotiation saying, do what you can.
- [54:03]
A
But like with the Ojibwe, for example, by the time you look at the really substantive treaties, they understood pre Europeans that there were some lands that they excluded other people from. They had territorial wars with their neighbors. They also understood that there were some lands where they shared use with their immediate neighbor. And so when you look at and analyze the treaties, the native leaders are saying things like, I don't know what your words mean. What matters is I still get to live right here. I don't have to move anywhere. That includes, I get to harvest wild rice here, I get to harvest the fish, and I get to hunt, and I get to do all the things I've always done. And essentially, what Native people were saying in those early Ojibwe treaties was, we will change the status of certain lands from our exclusive use to shared use with you. Which is different from we are alienating ourselves from this land and selling it to you.
- [55:08]
B
Right. Like the idea of a home buy today, like, this is your home. We're leaving the home. It's, you know, we're cohabiting.
- [55:14]
A
This driveway will have an easement so both of us can use it. Right.
- [55:19]
B
And that's not what the Europeans.
- [55:21]
A
Well, that is what Europeans understood in those rounds of the treaties. In fact, there's even language saying, you know, you'll be able to cut the parts of the trees that go above the ground, but the roots and the ground itself, we reserve for ourselves. Native people are saying that in the treaty logs, you know, and so then there were other lands that would be reserved for the exclusive use of Native people reservations. And that was the Ojibwe understanding at the time of treaty. But they just kept coming and kept whittling, you know, and it was grave injustice done.
- [56:04]
B
Mm.
- [56:05]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [56:06]
B
I'm curious if you feel that it is more unjust to have done some sort of malicious treaty rather than some type of outright war. Part of me almost feels that having these sort of sleazy kind of deals, that then they go back on that then they renegotiate over and over and over is almost worse than some type of battle. And, you know, having conquest in that way, I don't know, like, it feels one of them feels more honest despite being more brutal, you know, like, it's a weird way to put it.
- [56:40]
A
Rather have the cut off the head than a death by a thousand paper cuts.
- [56:43]
B
Maybe. Yeah. I don't know. Like, that's just how I'm feeling. But I'm curious if there's been discussion about that within, you know, the literature.
- [56:49]
A
It's hard to compare oppressions. You know, there was a grave injustice done, thousands of them, you know, and those were impossible circumstances. But in spite of all of that horrible crap, against all odds, in spite of 500 pretty rough years, we still have some land. We still have our languages. We still have living, vibrant, beautiful cultures. That's an amazing testament to the fortitude of my ancestors, what they went through and the decisions they made and how they were able to set us up with this.
- [57:29]
B
Absolutely.
- [57:29]
A
You know, and we have a word in Ojibwe, Ana Kobidjigan. We use the same word for my great grandchild and my great grandparent. So it spans seven generations from great grandparent to grandparent to parent to me to my kids, grandkids, great grandkids. And it literally means my line. And so we're supposed to think in terms of seven generations. Like, seven generations ago, our people were going through a hard time dealing with treaties and all kinds of bullcrap, you know, and they thought, what are they going to need seven generations from now? And they thought, we're going to need some land, and we'll need some clean water, and we'll need our language and our culture, and we'll need each other. And so they did everything they could to set us up to have those things. And against all odds, indeed we do. So I think seven generations from now, what are they going to need? I think they're going to need the same things. They won't remember my name no matter how many books I write. But if our language, culture, land, clean water, live our communities, then all my strivings are worth it. Yeah.
- [58:38]
B
That's awesome. Is there a spiritual component that goes along with the land in the sense that did the Ojibwe specifically have sort of, I guess, deification or spiritual rituals or practice around the place that they were living? And when these treaties were being done, it was also an affront to the spiritual component? Like, what can you say to the religion of the early contact Ojibwe?
- [59:01]
A
Yeah, I Would say simply this. You know, there was an understanding that we are part of the web of life, not its masters. You know, and the objectification and commodification of everything on planet earth as a tool and resource, which, by the way, was even applied to the humans and everything else, you know, was not just an alien concept, but an offensive one. And also just very short sighted. You know, if we all thought in terms of seven generations, well, it'd be a pretty easy decision about should we do the strip mine or not, or whatever the things are. But we're not thinking in terms of seven generations. We're thinking in terms of the next quarterly shareholder profit statement. You know, and so that is part of the problem. Like, what is colonization? It's taking one language, one culture, one religion, and using it to supplant the others. While humans have been mean to each other throughout history, clunking each other over the head with a club to steal their bologna sandwich, so to speak. Colonization was different because it said, you have to worship God the way I do. You have to speak the language I speak. And if you do not model your life after mine, you have no right to exist. And colonization, since it was about erasure, employed a lot of violence. But if you look at it like all of us have been deeply touched by colonization. When you try to solve all your problems with violence, it makes a bunch of other problems. So why should we think that all of the problems created by the colonial way of solving problems could be solved by the colonial way of solving problems? Right? And they cannot. And you can even see it in American politics if you're steeped in the culture of erasure, One of the great fears is fear of your own erasure. And so, so much of our country is full of people fighting for just us instead of justice. And it will never work. There's no escape from diversity. 30% of the German citizenry is born somewhere other than Germany. We have to figure out how to get along and build things together and think beyond the next quarterly shareholder profit statement.
- [61:36]
B
Right?
- [61:36]
A
Yeah.
- [61:37]
B
What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because you need more time. It is the most valuable commodity that exists. And Huell is gonna help you do that. All right? If you're like me, you're constantly on the go, you're constantly running late. I mean, every time I'm leaving my house, I'm going out the door, and I'm like, I forgot to eat today. And then I find myself just eating garbage, like, throughout. I'm like, Going to the bodega or corner store, just grabbing, like, sugary nonsense. If I'm trying to eat good, often times it's packed with stuff that's terrible for me. And that's why I love hu. All right. Hu is everything you need. It is a complete balanced meal, all in this convenient, beautiful little bottle. In this bottle, I'm telling you right now, you're going to get everything you need to power you through the day. 35 grams of protein, 25 vitamins and minerals, 7 grams of dietary fiber. I mean, omega 3, omega 6, everything that you need. I mean, it is a scientific process to put all the nutrients packed into this bottle. Not only is it extremely convenient and you can take it on the go with you anywhere you need, it's extremely healthy. It's going to give you all the energy and good vibes to get through the day in order to tackle everything, whether it's going to the gym, going to work, you know, going on a date with your girl, whatever you need. And most importantly, it's extremely affordable. That's right, it is. You know, you're going to see these in your corner store, in your bodega, and your 711 gas station back home. Pick up a huel, try it for yourself. It tastes great, it's easy, it's convenient, it's good for you, and it's very affordable. And it actually just got a little bit more affordable for the people that listen to this show. That's right, because when you go to hu.com and use a promo code camp, that's hu h.com camp. Use the promo code camp. And the listeners of this program are going to be getting 15% off and a free gift. What is that gift? No one knows. But if you want to find out, check it out. Hu.com use the promo code camp. Get 50% off your order and try it for yourself. Get some time back. Stop eating garbage all day. Get something that actually NER nourishes your body, empowers you for all the tough things that life might throw at you. Let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I need to tell you about how you are potentially entitled for some compensation. That's right. You may have been injured without even knowing it. And I think statistically, most Americans have been injured by this. We know that our food is poison. Many of these companies, these massive conglomerates, are pumping our food with stabilizers and gums and other processed chemicals that are illegal in most other countries, but for some reason in America, they are full legal and they are allegedly causing many health problems. That's a very small alleged. I actually just read a book about this ultra processed humans. It's fascinating that the processed chemicals that are going into our foods are terrible for you. I mean, if you were to take a baked cookie and a cookie that's filled with processed preservatives, even if they have the same exact nutritional profile, the one with the preservatives and all the gums and stabilizers and ultra processing chemicals is going to be worse for you by a far, far margin. So if you have been exposed to many of these ultra processed foods, they've been known to be addictive, they've been known to cry to target children, and they can potentially cause chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, fatty liver disease, both of which were unheard of 40 years ago, but now affect the lives of thousands of children. It looks like the people over at Morgan and Morgan are fighting for the people once again. That's right. Morgan and Morgan, America's largest law firm. I mean, they have, you know, handled thousands of thousands of cases, recovered billions of dollars for their clients, and now they are targeting the ultra processed food giants of the world. Okay. So if you or your child has been diagnosed with one of these diseases that I mentioned before, you may have legal options. They have helped thousands of families seek justice against these big corporations and they are ready to fight for you as well. So if you are interested, go to for the people.comgagnon. that's right. That is f o r the people.comgagnon. if you're interested in potentially hearing more about the way that these companies can be affecting you and your health and the health of your family and how you may be entitled for compensation because of that. Now, I do have to disclose this is a paid advertisement. Now let's get back to the show. Did many Ojibwe convert to Catholicism with the French settlement or was there a strong resistance? Did they have any type of choice? What did that look like?
- [65:54]
A
Oh, it was quite varied. Yes. You know, the French expected their children to be Catholics.
- [66:03]
B
Sure.
- [66:03]
A
You know, and the French in Ojibwe made a bunch of babies together. So you have a lot of people who were raised in Catholicism, for example. You also have waves of missionaries who are often fighting with each other over the rights to colonize the natives. And those things had effect at the same time. Ojibwe country is quite large. You know, even today, 80% of the Canadian population lives within 50 miles of the US border. So you have some communities where everybody speaks the tribal language. You have communities like Panima on the Red Lake Reservation, Round Lake on the St. Croix Reservation in Wisconsin, where no one's ever been baptized 100% Traditional Ojibwe religious belief and funeral practice. I myself never been baptized, always raised in our traditional tribal custom. And I'm not alone in that. And in more recent years, we've also seen, you know, a lot of younger people who are really interested in relearning, reclaiming, you know, holding up their indigenous identity and all the things that it might mean. I think there are a lot of people of all groups who are kind of disillusioned with the major institutional offerings, be they the political ones or the religious ones, and understand that connecting to one another in a more meaningful way and connecting to this earth as a sacred entity makes a lot more sense. Until 10,000 years ago, the dawn of the agricultural age, all of us lived in villages and had Earth based worldviews and spent most of our time outdoors.
- [67:52]
B
Right.
- [67:53]
A
It is pretty new to say you got to spend all your time sitting in a chair and staring at a computer screen. I mean, we're used to scanning the horizon, looking for food or a threat. You know, we'd only fix our attention when there's a threat coming. So just looking at a computer screen all day is triggering our threat stimulus and has people all stressed out. And so they're saying, go outside. Yeah, they're calling it like rewilding. I call it listening to our elders.
- [68:22]
B
It's an interesting practice. I mean, there's so many little things that I think we've lost, even just from that connection with being outside. Like, even just putting your feet into the soil has health effects, which are fascinating. It's been termed grounding. But again, it's just kind of one of those things like, you know, given the right climate and things like that, our ancestors, I imagine, you know, yours, certainly mine, ostensibly would have had their feet in the ground in some capacity, or even just eating local produce and ameliorating seasonal allergies. Eating honey from a local hive would give health benefits that imported honey from a, you know, a controlled hive wouldn't give you. There's so many little things that we lose. I mean, even Dr. Huberman talks about waking up and getting sunlight, getting actual sun rays when you wake up. Are you familiar with Dr. Huberman and his work?
- [69:16]
A
I haven't read him.
- [69:17]
B
He's great. He's a neuroscientist out of Stanford that does a lot of work just about personal health optimization. And so many of his recommendations and advice kind of lead me, at least, to follow this sort of naturalistic worldview. And I try to not fall into the naturalistic fallacy. But just waking up and getting sunlight and photons into your eyes and then going to sleep when the sun is relatively down or dark helps reset our circadian rhythms, and we sleep better and we have better hormonal balance. I mean, there's just a litany of things that I think have been lost. So I'm curious, are there any things that you've researched in the literature about your ancestry, even spiritual customs? What was the sort of dogmatic tenets of your faith as you grew up? And I use faith again. I know it's a European term, but I think that's the best way I can describe it.
- [70:10]
A
Yeah, Maybe it'll be easiest for folks to understand by sharing a story or two just about some of the things we do in our family.
- [70:16]
B
Please.
- [70:17]
A
Like, one of the customs when we have nine children. So whenever a new baby was on the way, we have, like, an Ojibwe cultural birthing go bag. So we harvest a medicine, we bring it with us right into the hospital, get hot water out of the tea dispenser, steep the medicine, strain it, and we use that for the baby's first bath. Oh, wow. And then we take the placenta and afterbirth home, and we bury it on the north side of a maple tree with an offering. And the maple is considered symbolically like tree of life. So we put their placentas there, and it's, you know, kind of a wish for a long, healthy, happy life for the baby. Now we also spend a lot of our time harvesting. Sometimes it's hard for people to figure me out because, you know, I'm sitting here in Brooklyn and I'm wearing decent clothes, and I. I'm a world traveler, and my English is right, you know. But I also speak Ojibwe, and I choose to live in my native community. And I spend about a third of my time officiating at ceremonies, from naming ceremonies to traditional funerals and everything in between. All that work's uncompens and in the traditions of our people. Spend about a third of my time doing my actual job, which is I'm a professor of the Ojibwe language. I teach Ojibwe language, culture, history, write books, spend about a third of my time doing public speaking, diversity, equity, inclusion, things like that. They're like three Strands of a braid, they all feed one another. But in the spring, when we harvest maple syrup or maple SAP every year and cook it down into syrup and sugar. And this is something I've done every year of my life. My mom did every year of her life. Her family, like, back through the generations. But when we go out into the maple forest, I've got all of the kids. We have nine kids. We have four grandkids now, and they're making offerings by the tree of life where their placentas are buried. And we have, like, sometimes five generations in our family there. So I feel connected across the generations to our culture and our practice, to this particular part of the woods. And my kids love doing this. And when I'm gone, I'm certain they'll be doing that, you know, and that's just a very basic practice. That's not like the religious ceremony, but it's still very spiritual. There's much more to all the other kinds of things that we do. And it's a very rich culture, so there's no way to give you everything, you know, in one sitting. But to give an idea of a couple other things that we might do, we also spend a lot of our time hunting. And so the ancient custom when someone harvested their first deer when we're living in Wigwam villages, would be to invite the whole village, cook the whole deer, and it gets eaten in one fell swoop. Now, today, we live kind of like everyone else. So, you know, by the way, the rez is not a horrible place. Come sit in my hot tub, you know. However, we will invite over extended family, so aunts, uncles, grandparents, members of the community, fill the house up with people. We cook up some of the deer, and there's a prayer. And then instead of just eating, we kind of ritually feed the successful hunter. We'll take a spoon of the food. We'll say their native names. So one of my kids, his name's Beijagobenes, means lone thunderbird. And he has to refuse the first bite and say, no. I'm thinking about children who don't have enough to eat. Ah, okay, put it back. Get another spoonful. And he refuses again and says no. I'm thinking about my elders who can't get out in the woods to hunt for themselves. Hmm. Okay, put it back. Another spoonful. Beija gobines. And he refuses a third time, and he says, no. I'm thinking of my family and my community and the people who came here today to support me. Huh? Okay, put it back. Beija go b'nais and then he can eat. And then we'll say, well, beja go bines. You just changed your life because up until today you were what we call the dependent. You depended on all the people in this room to provide all of your food. And there they are, aunts, uncles, grandparents, parents. Today though, you're providing for all of us. And this is what it means to be an adult. From today on, you'll have a special power. It's just the power to gather resources. You'll have it when you go hunting, when you go fishing, even when you get a job. So when you use your power, you think about kids who don't have enough and elders who can't get it for themselves and your community and your family. And then they take the rest of their kill packaged up venison and they give it away. So they're impoverished but rich. And since I have nine kids and get to do a lot of experimenting on them, I have to say that this ceremony has been very formative. So like, my son would maybe get a rabbit and right away he'd pick up the phone and he'd call my mom, no ko Noko Wabu's in Dayawa, and she'd say, ooh, no ze Shay, I'm going to cook for you tonight. Bring that rabbit over here. And I'm thinking, here goes the, you know, intergenerational transmission of caring, sharing and caretaking. And I didn't even have to say, go bring that over to your grandma, you know. And what I found is that those cultural practices, they reflect our values as a people, collective, communal, collaborative and so forth. But they shape our values as a people. And so much of the Western world is shaping us. To think about me and mine, our individualism, up by your own bootstraps. Hard work, determination, entrepreneurial spirit, drive, ambition. Put some plaques on the wall, make something of yourself. You meet someone new and it's like, what do you do? As if productivity equals self worth. You know, we're so competitive, we're so materialistic. And I think those things have us at odds with our most core yearnings as human beings for connection and love and belonging. We survived saber toothed tigers and cave bears not because we out competed the person in the next cave and acquired more venison than them. We survived those things because the people in the next cave loved us and they would intervene if we were in danger. So we need connection, belonging, love. And modern culture is so out of alignment with those things. So what I've Seen with these things, like our first kill harvest, is that it's a way of enculturating people to our way of looking at the world and doing things. And it has great impacts. We'll also, by the way, just open it up for any other person who's ever been successful hunting just to share things with the new hunter. And they're amazing. Like one of his namesakes was saying, you'll notice there's different kinds of deer in the woods. There are fawns, there's does there young bucks with a spike or a fork horn, Big mature antlered bucks. And they all act differently. And deer are very gentle creatures. It's very rare that one would attack a person or something. But on the rare times when that happens, it sometimes surprises people to know that it's usually not a big, mature antlered buck that would mess with a person. It's an immature buck. And they're also the deer that's most likely to get shot. And in a way, what he was providing was a little metaphor for manhood. And he laid it out and he said, as men, we make so many of our biggest mistakes when we're young. It's when we're more likely to think driving 90 miles an hour was a good idea and pay the price or make someone else pay the price. When we're more likely to experiment with drugs and alcohol or go on a date and not respect our partner. So if you want to be a big, mature antlered buck, you gotta act like one. They move a little slower. They think before they act, you know, and these things are very formative. So this kid, like even later in life at age 16, one time I had a friend complaining, oh, my back. I can't get out in the woods. I don't even know last time I had venison in my freezer, he didn't say anything, but he just went out in the woods, harvested a deer, cleaned it up, packaged it up, went to my friend's house, filled up his freezer. So my friend calls me and he's like, I didn't even know anyone remembered these teachings. What an incredible young man. Can I give him some gifts? Sure. Same kid, senior year in high school, he and his buddy were going to double date to the prom. So I got him hooked up with a tux rental. And his friend's mom said, my next check, I'll get you the tux, I promise. And then her car went down and she had to say, I'm so sorry, I can't so he's all heartbroken, ready to cancel his prom date. My son says, oh, forget that. Come with me. Went to the tux place, he canceled his tux, took the money. They went to the Goodwill, bought a couple suits. Everybody went to the prom. I show up at the prom, you know, take pictures of my kid in a tux, and I'm like, where's the tux? Then I get the story. And I said, well, son, if you would have said something, I would have rented your friend a tux. And he looked at me baffled, and he said, but, dad, it's my job to look out for people who don't have enough. And so at every phase, like these kind of things, it's not just cute culture, it's formative about a way of looking at the world. And of course, we have ceremonies for all the things when there's a death in the family or sending somebody to the next world or, you know, all the different things. But I think sometimes, you know, in the Western world, people think of, you know, oh, you go to church for, you know, confirmation, you know, wedding, funeral, baptism, that's it, a couple times. Make grandma happy, you know, and it means much more to other people, I think within a particular faith tradition. But what I found with what's in our own cultural practice is that it's pretty deep. There's a lot there and its tools for life and how to navigate everything from the joys to the tough things.
- [81:10]
B
Absolutely. I mean, I think that is one, beautiful and two, I think important. The idea that these rituals and these ceremonial practices not only sustain the tradition but perpetuate it. And they're again, not only reflective and ceremonial and symbolic, but again, our deeply grooving these roots into who you are as a human being. And I think a major shortcoming of modern American culture, broadly speaking, Westernized culture has no coming of age ceremony for men. And I think that is truly the detriment of men. And I'm speaking from my perspective, truly the detriment of men in America that I think, obviously, I think Jewish people have their own sort of the bar mitzvah ceremony and there's different religious traditions, but I don't know, I find that to be an issue. I think culturally that I don't know if men get, and I think women too, to an extent, but I can't speak to that experience. But men having this moment where they say, I am a man now and I'm going to behave as an adult or as a man would, and what that actually means and we have these things that you're 18, you're an adult, but that's legal status. Or you're 21, you can drink. But again, that's sort of indulging in these sort of conveniences, but actually understanding what masculinity is and then having the permission to become that, I think is completely lost culturally. And even growing up Catholic, there's like, some semblance of it within religiosity that, oh, now you are a member of the parish at this confirmation, but it doesn't bear the same weight as, I think most indigenous, you know, manhood ceremonies would be. Certainly not in the way that this ceremony sounds to be.
- [82:57]
A
Yeah, you know, things are highly variable. But I do agree that it's important to provide some guidance, you know, some guideposts, something to think about with major inflection points in a person's life. All kids must break from their parents. Yeah, it's necessary. You can't helicopter smother your kid or you deprive them of their sense of their own capacity. And you can't just check out and leave them to it. They'll feel abandoned and neglected, you know, and so it's a very difficult part. As a parent, you get to look forward to this with a new one in your own world. But I do feel that some of this stuff provides a structure, a framework for thinking about things that can be very empowering. So we, by the way, we do these first kill feasts for boys and girls. Everybody can do that. And we also have ceremonies when a girl gets her first menstrual period marks a transition to womanhood spiritually. There's a year of ceremonies. And as each traditional food comes into season, wild rice, wild game, fish, maple berries, there's a feeding kind of like at the first kill feast. And it's full of empowerment teachings. And so, you know, they will. Usually it's the women in the family, the, you know, mother, aunties, grandmas, female namesakes, and have a public feast. And they'll say things like, you have a right and a responsibility to be respected by men. And here's what that means. No one can hit you. No one can call you names or make you do something sexually that you do not want to do. I just think what a different world we'd have if we did that kind of ceremony or message for girls as they became women with their brothers watching. I watched when my sister had that ceremony, and we've had a lot of our daughters have gone through this ceremony. It can be very empowering it doesn't mean it's easy, but it provides a way, a frame for thinking about what does it mean? And if you think about what do we do in the mainstream world, like, what is prom? It's a mini pretend wedding from the days when people abstained from sex until marriage. So you dress up like you would for a wedding. You promenade with a partner, you have a special dance and a special meal and all these expectations. And I think all kids want to do what adults get to do that kids don't get to do. And without guidance, it's like, get laid, get drunk, get a driver's license. Some people navigate that fine, and some people struggle. But I found that that can be really empowering. And empowering for the young person coming of age, but empowering for their parents and their grandparents to have an opportunity, you know, to engage meaningfully and. And recalibrate the relationship as, you know, as an adult one.
- [86:13]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. I just think there's a removal of the thing itself with sort of these spiritual or symbolic components that go along with it culturally. Right. Like, you know, obviously, sex as a thing, you know, is great so long as it's sort of, in my opinion, tied with the sort of spiritual or, I don't know, life bringing sort of, I guess, fabric that goes along with it and that isolated on its own, I think it can be frivolous or trivial or even detrimental to people in certain capacities. I think drugs are a similar thing. Right. Like, I think weed or marijuana. I think mushrooms, psilocybin, ayahuasca, obviously has deep indigenous tradition. And I think removing it from the symbolism or the nature of what it means on a grander scale, I think is a disservice to the thing. And just breaking it down to its individualized function or utility, I think is. I don't know. I think it can be misguiding. And the same thing with prom. You're just doing the behavior, but there's no symbolic element, which I think is necessary in a lot of cases.
- [87:22]
A
Yeah.
- [87:22]
B
I'm curious about the naming ceremonies.
- [87:25]
A
Oh, sure.
- [87:25]
B
Would you share with me, I guess, on a personal basis or even on a larger scale, how did you name your children? Or what is the sort of Ojibwe naming custom?
- [87:36]
A
Yeah. So the ancient custom is the parents don't pick names, they pick namesakes. The namesakes function somewhat like a godparent in Western religious traditions, so spiritual guide and role model. And then the namesakes give names, plural, to the child, and the names come from a dream or a vision. When fasting. And so someone might, for example, if they have a dream about people sitting around a fire and they're praying and the smoke goes up and there's an opening in the clouds, and they might give the name hole in the sky or something like that. So it wouldn't be he who sits around fire while smoke goes up through hole in sky or something like that. It's, you know, there's something a little more cryptic. It's a snapshot of a. There's a bigger story behind it, and it establishes a namesake relationship. So in Ojibwe, the cultural belief is not so much that we have souls, it's more like we are souls, we have bodies for a little while. We're not humans looking for a spiritual experience. We're spirits. We're having this temporary human experience. And so the body in Ojibwe is called niyo, my body. And it really describes like a vessel, a cup. So it's temporary housing for our soul. And when we're born, soul goes in. Other things can go in too, including your native names. So when you fill your cup up with a bunch of good stuff, it pushes the bad stuff out. So it's healing as well as identity creating. And that's kind of the basic component. If I give a name to someone else from one of my dreams or a vision that I had when I was fasting, I'm kind of taking a little something out of my cup and I'm putting it into someone else's. So this is ni yao, and the word for namesake is. And it kind of describes or invokes that concept.
- [89:44]
B
And what is the benefit of fasting?
- [89:46]
A
Oh, there are many benefits of fasting, I think, you know, the physiological ones are well documented because the scientists are, you know, have been speaking to that. But there's a spiritual dimension to fasting too. We are very physical creatures. We're used to, like, looking at someone and thinking that's who they are instead of seeing the soul that's housed inside of the temporary body. You know, if you think of everyone as a spiritual entity, it's easier to be respectful of them, even if they're really making you mad and being ridiculous. And I try imperfect though, I am thinking about other people with regards to gossip, talking about people behind their back, you know, running somebody down. Try not to do those sort of things, because it's like I'm talking about a sacred spirit. That's who they really are. And they just have their inner wounded children getting in the way of them being the better version of themselves, you know. But, you know, as I think about these things, there's a sacredness, you know, to everyone and to everything. And when we can see that, I think I'm the better version of myself and able to build things with other people in a better way.
- [91:16]
B
Could you share the funeral ceremony of the Ojibwe?
- [91:20]
A
Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. I guess I didn't quite finish on fasting, but I'll talk a little bit about fasting and a little bit about funerals. But with fasting, when you give up food and drink and also the company of other people. And so we'll put people out in the woods and it's alone time. It's a very sacred thing. We're so filled with human chatter and motion and commotion, constant stimulus. And when you shut it off, then you're not just alone with your thoughts, but the woods are alive. You start to notice the insects crawling right in front of you. You can see the sacredness of things and beings. As your body shuts down spiritually, you can wake up. Our visual sight doesn't get in the way of our spiritual sight as much. And we can open, and it slows everything down, which can be really great. Like, oftentimes, our creativity is really impeded by the constant motion and grind and drive. And everyone's playing whack a mole on emails and like it, you know, it consumes you. The world will eat you up if you let it. And so it provides a chance to get perspective and to see things in a. In a spiritual way. And, you know, I've been fasting a number of times. My children have been going fasting, and it's pretty powerful. We also have this belief that, like, daytime for us is like nighttime for the souls of the departed, and vice versa. And so I remember one time, one of my kids, he was about 13, put him out fasting. And he's a really tough kid. I'd go out once a day to check on him. Any dream? Nope, see you tomorrow, you know, and next day, anything. Nope, see you tomorrow, you know, and kept doing that. Third day, anything. Tough food. Like, I'm all right. It's like, okay, I said. But I do notice right at the end of the day, right before the sun sets every day, the wind stops and there's a hush in the forest, and the birds stop singing, and it feels like someone died. And then a few minutes later.
- [93:58]
B
Then.
- [93:59]
A
You can start hearing the nighttime animals, and the woods are alive again. And I didn't tell him anything, but he could, like, intuit this, you know, it was pretty cool. Wow. Yeah. And so you just develop a spiritual intuition, like you have to feed it. And sometimes we benefit from the company of others and the connectivity with others. And we also benefit from time for reflection and cultivation of spiritual connection with everything else.
- [94:31]
B
When your son does this, where does he go?
- [94:33]
A
Oh, well, we are also very lucky with where we live. We live in northern Minnesota. We have a large property and we actually do most of our hunting and harvesting and everything else right there. We're on the northernmost part of the Mississippi river. And yes, we have areas where he can go fasting undisturbed.
- [94:54]
B
Will he be in just sort of like a camping setup or is there a place there? Like, what does that actually look like?
- [95:00]
A
Yeah, there is no permanent structure for him. He's him and the trees and whatever the weather brings.
- [95:05]
B
And does he develop something for himself, Some type of covering using leaves or some type of.
- [95:09]
A
Like, there's some variation to what people do. Some people are like, you get one blanket. Good luck, pray for good weather. You know, so I've been a little bit more accommodating, but not that much. So, you know, blanket tarp usually put people out fasting in the spring and the fall. So there aren't too many wild weather events or, you know, plagues of mosquitoes, things like that. But you can fast any time of the year.
- [95:37]
B
And what would be a typical fasting window? What would be, I guess, like, ideal or optimal, if there's such a thing.
- [95:43]
A
Honestly, when people are young, sometimes they don't have to go as many days in order to get the pity of the spirits. As we get older, sometimes takes us a little longer just to detox and deprogram and be ready and open and receptive. But it's pretty like we've. Sometimes we'll put people out for a really short fast of a couple of days. Four days is pretty common. And sometimes people have been out there longer. I fasted seven days.
- [96:13]
B
Water only water, no water.
- [96:15]
A
Yeah.
- [96:16]
B
Wow.
- [96:17]
A
Just pushing the limits of what the human body can handle. But yeah.
- [96:20]
B
Wow. I mean, yeah, I'm on a 24 hour fast right now. Oh, I love fasting.
- [96:25]
A
Yeah.
- [96:26]
B
For kind of the same purpose, I guess. It's not a mistake to me or coincidence that it exists in all religions throughout the world in different capacities, of course, but I think it is intrinsic to sort of the human experience that there is a spiritual component. It's interesting that it exists in Ojibwe as well. Again, it's not surprising to me. But I do think that there's something intrinsic to the human condition that by taking out that stimulus and sort of the excess energy of not digesting food, what that can do intellectually, what that can do creatively, spiritually, oh, sure. I don't think that can be discounted. So I do it at least once a week, sometimes more.
- [97:05]
A
Oh, wow.
- [97:06]
B
I really enjoy it. I feel better when I'm fasting. Conversations like this, I find to be more fluid or even doing stand up or whatever endeavor I'm doing. I like it. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you about an amazing service known as BlueChew. That's right. BlueChew is a service that basically delivers this chewable tablet to your door whenever you want, once a week, once a month. I don't even know if they could do it that frequently, but they'll send it right to your door. You don't have to go to the doctor and have some awkward conversation with some guy in a lab coat. Some dude that's judging you, probably, if I had to guess, with Bluechew, it's super discreet. The packaging is discreet. It's just a couple questions on their website. And they will send you chewable tablets that have basically the same active ingredients as like a Viagra or a Cialis, but at the fraction of the cost and in a chewable form. It's great. It truly is. I mean, one time I was in the woods and we were cold and everyone. It was raining and I pitched a tent with the help of Bluechew, and everyone gathered under it and we were safe. And it saved me and a lot of lonely people. So. So if you're interested in BlueChew, here's how you get it. You're gonna go to BlueChew.com and use the promo code Gagnon. That's right. G, A, G, N, O, N. It's kind of funny. Gagnon has the promo code. I don't know why exactly, but it is funny. And you're gonna receive your first month for free. That's right. Bluechew.com. use the promo code Gagnon. Check it out. Bluechew. Let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I wanna help you make sports more fun. That's right. If you like watching sports, there's a way to make it ten times more fun. And that is with Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the largest independently owned daily fantasy Sports platform in North America. It's absolutely super fun and super easy to play. All you gotta do is pick two to six player stats and hit more or less, and you can watch the winnings roll in. And to be honest with you, I've. I'm pretty good. I've been winning some money, but I've. I've lost more. I'll be honest. I'm bleeding money right now. I'm terrible at this game. I know nothing about sports. I'm awful. I. I always click more or less on the wrong things. So whatever I do do the exact opposite of. Apparently people are winning money on this. There's some people that are making, you know, they turn $10 into $1,000 in just a few taps. Not me. Maybe you. Maybe you could figure it out. I don't know how to do it. So let's look at the picks from this week, shall we? All right, guys, let's check out some picks. We got super bowl licks coming up. L, I, X. What is that? 60, 65, 64, 69. It's Super Bowl 69, guys. It's coming up. I'm saying Patrick Mahomes, you gotta. You gotta go for Patty, right? I'm gonna be crushing the more on Patty. Saquon Barkley, I'm gonna go more. Jalen hurts. I think he gotta go less. And also there's basketball stuff, right? Luca Donches is about to be playing for the. For the Lakers, the Los Angeles Lakers specifically. And they're playing Golden State, coming up with Luca. So I'm saying Luca Moore, I'm saying, why? Luca's out right now.
- [99:57]
A
He's injured. He's not gonna play for a while.
- [99:59]
B
I'm still saying more. You got to go for Luca. I mean, no matter what, right? And then LeBron, knowing that he's got Luka on the bench, you don't think he's going to try to ball out for his boy? And then Steph Curry, he knows about a super team. He knows how that feels. Seeing Luke on the bench, he's going to feel that heat. I think I'm going to go. I think I'm going to go less on that. Anyway, don't listen to me, okay? Whatever you do, don't do, don't listen. I don't know really anything about what this is. So anyway, if you're interested in playing the game, making sports more fun, go to the App store, download the prize picks app on your mobile device, use the promo code Camp C A M P. And with your first $5 lineup, you will get $50 instantly deposited into your account that you are able to play with. That's right. I mean, here I am giving the good people some funds to play with. So you're welcome. Let's get back to the show.
- [100:48]
A
You know, throughout most of human history, too, we've all had to navigate scarcity, you know.
- [100:54]
B
Yeah, we're built more for scarcity and not constant consumption.
- [100:58]
A
Right. And so, you know, navigating kind of feast and famine situations, like when there's a time of major scarcity, when you can't get enough food, then your body's built for that so that it'll put you into overdrive. It supercharges your immune system. You actually get cognitively sharper, and you have a surge of energy and empowerment that comes with that, which is how you'd be charged up enough to go out and run an antelope down or whatever you needed to do so that you would survive. So intermittent fasting or even going keto for a while, it can physiologically do things to you that are really positive. But there's also this spiritual dimension that I think is really significant. You asked about funerals, too, and with regard to that, the real substance of what we do at the ceremony itself will save for the ceremony. Otherwise it'd be like I'm sending you off or something. But I officiate at a lot of these funerals, and it too is a beautiful ceremony. Even the loss is tough. So the belief is, you know, as I mentioned, we are souls. We're made out of earth. In our creation story, when we pass away, our soul leaves our body behind, and that body goes back to earth. But the soul is eternal. Our unique light, breath, and sound. And so some of the things that I think people might find very different is that the entire funeral ceremony is for the departing soul. So it's not for the family so much. It's not for someone to preach to the family about why they should be at church more often or things like that. It's for the departing soul. So we eat with the departing soul. So there's an open casket, food is placed right next to them. The family comes right up next to the body of the person who passed away. They eat with them. So there's a prayer and a ceremony for that. They're pretty long legend that explains about creation and how we became mortal and the making of the road of souls and things like that. And then that's all at the wake. And then at the funeral, we eat with them again. And Then there's an instruction for the departing soul on how to get to the spirit world. And there is a preparation of them for that. So they have certain things they take with. And it's amazing how many cultures of the world speak about death as a transition, whether it was you got a couple coins to pay the boatman. In the ancient Greek traditions, you know, a crossing over. For us, too, there's a crossing of a river, and it's usually described as crossing of water or a plane of light or something like that in all cultures. And so, yeah, it was pretty interesting. And, you know, when they cracked the code on the ancient Mayan ruins, they found that all of the Mayan rulers were buried with a pot. And the inscription said, my name is. And then the name of the person, and this is my chocolate pot. And they had a pot of chocolate. And that was like spiritual currency for them, paying their way into the next world. For us, we've used tobacco and then food as the offerings we send people with. And then there is a section when we take a break from speaking to the departing soul. We talk to the family and give them instructions for navigating grief and loss and things they have to do to follow up over the following year. And then, yeah, we use a lot of music, too, to send them off. So they're kind of charging the person up for their journey. And then there's some procedure, songs to send them.
- [105:03]
B
What kind of instruments would be used in the music?
- [105:06]
A
Most Ojibwe music, we have several types of drums and rattles. Yeah. So typically that's what you'll see.
- [105:12]
B
You had mentioned tobacco. Could you speak to the medicinal components of Ojibwe culture, specifically in regards to plant medicine like tobacco or mushrooms? Ayahuasca, I know, exists more in Central America, but is there any, I guess, proxy for that in Ojibwe culture?
- [105:32]
A
It's a little different. First of all, the part of the world that I live in has a very rich, diverse ecosystem. There are lots of plants, and there's lots of plant knowledge. So we use many different types of plants for just about everything you could imagine. So we use them for cleansing, for healing, for anything from basic colds to the most grievous illnesses. And there are medicines for all of that and still act. A lot of people actively cultivate that knowledge and use that. It's also something that is a spiritual practice. So, for example, one of my daughters used to get really chronic ear infections, and I took her to see a spiritual leader, because usually we don't work on our immediate family members. And he said she has something deformed around what they call her mastoid gland. It's kind of inside the inner ear and fluid keeps building up and giving her ear infections. And we had taken her to the doctor so many times and they're like, here's some more antibiotics, here's some more antibiotics, more antibiotics. Let's try this antibiotic.
- [106:46]
B
A Western doctor.
- [106:47]
A
Yeah. But once we went to see this guy, he said, here's what it is. I'm going to give her a medicine and this will be like a one time medicine. But. And so he was kind of like spiritually directed, but it was kind of like a directed poison to kill the illness. But if you took that and said, oh, this medicine is for earaches, it'd be like you're drinking a poison. So it has to work with the spiritual as well as the physiological and scientific component, the way we use them.
- [107:22]
B
This was successful for your daughter?
- [107:23]
A
It worked. Yeah, that was it done? Yeah. And there are many other things to say about what's in the repertoire of medicines that are out there. But the Ojibwe do not have something that is like a peyote or ayahuasca that's a hallucinogen for inducing a vision or something like that. So that is not part of our custom. And people are aware that those things exist for other tribes. Peyote is indigenous to Texas and northern Mexico. It's just out of our region. Ayahuasca from the rainforest. So, yeah, those things are not kind of in our repertoire. One of my elders, kind of cracking me up, said, what do you think about people who want to do peyote? And she goes, well, they can do whatever they want. I don't know about any other cultures, but it's not right for us to rush our visions. And that was her perspective.
- [108:23]
B
Interesting.
- [108:23]
A
Yeah.
- [108:24]
B
What about tobacco?
- [108:25]
A
Tobacco, yeah. So the Virginia leaf tobacco does grow in much of the temperate part of the United States. Where I live in northern Minnesota. We're kind of right on the growing range for where that would grow. But the concept is that when we harvest something, take the life of a plant or an animal, bird, fish, we shouldn't just be takers. So there's supposed to be reciprocity. So tobacco is kind of like the instrument we use if we're going to take something. So you offer in order to take. So there's, you know, symbolically in exchange. We do that even when we're doing a prayer. So it's kind of like, you know, a sacrament or something like that. It's currency for whatever our requests are. However, in our area, because Virginia leaf tobacco doesn't always grow that well, we actually have another plant. It's not even scientifically the tobacco plant. We call it red willow. And it'll even grow out in this area too. You might see it in the ditches in various places as bright red bark. And so in the springtime when you harvest it, you could run a fingernail down the outside, twist it, and the outer bark will pop right off. It's paper thin. And then scrape down the inner bark, dry it out. And we've actually been telling people at ceremonies we officiate, let's decolonize our tobacco. Let's use that stuff. Don't use a store bought tobacco. It's full of 187 chemical substances that kill you dead when used as directed. When you make offerings to harvest your offering. It's more spiritually potent, doesn't have the chemicals. You know, it's hard to pray for healing in a toxic environment. So let's decolonize the tobacco practice and center that in our ceremonies. And it's been a, been a good effort.
- [110:09]
B
Wow. Is there any, any groups that you're familiar with or tribes that would use marijuana in any type of ritual way?
- [110:19]
A
I'm not familiar with any. I can't rule it out. I mean, there's so much diversity.
- [110:23]
B
Diversity in some capacity.
- [110:25]
A
Okay.
- [110:25]
B
This is amazing. I really appreciate you sharing with me in the short period of time we have left. Do you mind if I ask you some rapid fire myths that people believe about Native Americans and native tribes in America that maybe you could just dispel in some capacity? Okay, I guess just a couple. Off the top of my head, I've heard people say, you know, I obviously have an affinity for what would be considered the natural and sort of things that I think are more in tune with nature. And I think that is ultimately where humans come from and belong in some capacity. So with that, I tend to do things much in that line. And people say, yeah, you know, the natives are great. You know, they did their thing, but they didn't have a great quality of life. They died when they were 20 years old. There was famine and disease, even pre colonialism and you know, look at them now. They're all doing modern stuff. So obviously western modern culture is a premier culture. And yeah, you would not want to have been a native back in the day.
- [111:26]
A
I disagree. You know, I'm really loving being a native person. Back in the day. It's not a fair comparison to look at any ancient culture and our modern culture. The life expectancy for humans in all cultures has changed dramatically with the advent of modern medicine. Our ability to fix a broken bone, all kinds of things. And I don't know. I've got one relative, John Smith. It's ironic he got the name John Smith. He was born in the late 1700s and died in 1922. Wasn't even the record holder for human longevity. Noden Wind was another elder from our community. He was born in 1876 and passed away in 1981. He was the grand marshal for the 4th of July parade in our town. And he'd lived through half of America's first 200 years in the 1976 parade and many other examples. So there's no evidence that the longevity of Native people was less than the longevity of white people or other groups at the same points in time. Today, that's a little different. And that has more to do with living in food deserts, pushing people into abject poverty, and the attendant effects on what kinds of food people can access and all the impacts of that. So I have a modern life as well as a traditional one, like, explained about some of our cultural customs and traditions, which are perfectly well suited to our modern world as well as our ancient worldview. And I don't think that, you know, Native people should be compelled to repudiate the advent of modern medicine any more than someone in England should be compelled to only worship at Stonehenge or repudiate modern medicine there. It's really a false comparison. And there's plenty of beauty in all the cultures of the world, and we shouldn't denigrate any of them.
- [113:42]
B
Okay, this one is a false dilemma, I believe. But I've heard people present both sides of this sort of as, I don't know, some type of refutation to Native cultures. One is the noble savage stereotype to say all native tribes in America, they were peaceful and they just traded beaver skins with each other, and they ate corn sometimes, and they were just loving and didn't do anything wrong to anybody. And then the other side is, oh, these people were warriors and savages and killing people all the time. And Western European colonialism is no different than what they were doing to each other. So I don't know if you want to take one of those first.
- [114:24]
A
Yeah, I mean, obviously they're both incorrect. I don't think we should denigrate or romanticize any culture. Native communities and different cultures did have Histories of both conflict and peace. I do think that the really big difference with colonial culture is what we spoke to earlier in our conversation, which is that that kind of violence was on scale. To say, I'm going to come to this land, and I say, I own all this land, and I own all these people. That was a different kind of violence than competition over resources and things like that. And certainly there are tribes in certain areas that had more or less conflict. And you could point to that when you look at feudal Japan, the mongol empire, European, you know, medieval Europe, you see plenty of conflict, and you see things starting to get scaled up. But I do think there was something very different about the colonial enterprise that caused greater harm and injury across planet earth to all peoples. I mean, Europeans perfected colonization, doing it to each other before taking it to the rest of the world. We all have victim experiences with being forbidden to be who you are. And I think that was very different than just resource competition or humans being mean.
- [115:55]
B
Now, I've heard other people say many natives died from disease because they didn't have close proximity with cattle in the way that Europeans had for a long time. They had built up a resistance to cholera, and they had a black plague that killed many people. But the ones that survived were not only immune, but also contagious to disease. And so when colonists came to America and they were giving natives blankets and things like that, they didn't mean to kill them. They just died on accident. What are your thoughts to this claim?
- [116:25]
A
Incorrect. So, first of all, it is true that native people had a lot more susceptibility to the germ pool brought from across the ocean, really, the domestication of cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, and pigs. You had the transfer from animal populations to the human population. Many kinds of diseases, even childhood diseases like measles, were sometimes killing many, many, many people. Smallpox had about a 30% mortality rate for native populations. And so it was the timing that caused the destabilization, because at the same time that you're meeting a new group of people, you're having nine out of your 10 closest family members die, and then somebody's trying to take your land. It was very destabilizing. And I think if you had initial contact and then there's no contact for a couple hundred years, you might have even had some different results, much less, you know, more equitable resistance to what's in the germ pool. However, lord Jeffrey Amherst of the British army wrote in his journals, take these blankets infected with smallpox, send them to the disaffected Tribes in order to inoculate them. And so it was intentional biological warfare. That doesn't mean that every introduction of disease was by intent, but some of the introductions to disease were intentional. Wow.
- [118:03]
B
I had no idea that there was, well documented, a direct intentionality. Oh, that's diabolical.
- [118:08]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [118:10]
B
Okay. A couple more and then I'll set you free. The Washington Redskins. Is that offensive?
- [118:20]
A
It is to me.
- [118:21]
B
And why?
- [118:24]
A
I really think we should just do away with human mascots altogether. They're on a spectrum. Redskins more offensive than Indians, which is more offensive than Warriors. But the two primary defenses of Native mascots are, number one, we're trying to do this to honor people. It's like badass Spartans, Trojans, and Indians. So it's cool. And the other one is I ran into a Native person who said it didn't bother him at all. And so my view is simply this. Of course, there's a diversity of opinion, but we have to examine the issues. First of all, when somebody is dressing up with a faux feather war bonnet and putting paint on their faces as a fan for a sports team, are they respecting a culture or playing Halloween? It used to be that you had to earn your eagle feathers through acts of service. So putting them into costume kind of not only takes them out of context, but defiles the custom around it and makes a mockery of it. Also, bear in mind it's not just the hometown fans playing Halloween. Opposing fans always defile their opponent's mascot in the name of team or school spirit. And so when high school teams at high school games are saying, hey, Indians, get ready to leave in a trail of tears. Round two. Hi, Hawaii. Hi, Hawaii.
- [120:11]
B
Hmm.
- [120:13]
A
We have a problem, because somewhere in the mission for the school, it should say something about education and an inclusive learning environment. And if you're a Native student at that school, do you feel included?
- [120:27]
B
Nah.
- [120:28]
A
Is anybody there learning? No.
- [120:31]
B
Maybe in the most morbid, insensitive way. Right.
- [120:33]
A
And so those are the issues. And with regard to. I found a Native person who said, it doesn't bother me. There are some who have said that. The Seminole tribe in Florida, where, you know, you have spent a lot of time, you know, officially sanctioned the collegiate team's use of their tribal name, and the Meskwaki sanctioned the use of Black Hawk for that team. However, over 100 tribes have passed resolutions repudiating the use of Native mascots and imagery. So when you compare two yeses to over a hundred no's and the National Congress of American Indians saying, don't do becomes a little more clear. I don't know if you ever listen to country music, Gretchen Wilson. I'm a redneck woman. I ain't no high class, bro. Yeah. Does that mean I can call every white woman I meet redneck woman? Probably not. If someone objects, please don't call me redneck woman. Can I say you have no right to be offended? Because Gretchen Wilson is down with it. I see no right. And so if it's offending someone, it doesn't have to offend everyone or everyone in equal measure. If it's offending someone. Lions, tigers and bears.
- [121:58]
B
Hmm, that's an interesting point. Yeah, I hadn't seen it in that way. And then I guess, not to mention if there's something more specific. For example, not every tribal group will have some type of personal or spiritual connection to that thing, you know, like, I guess, Black Hawk, for example. That means something very specific to a specific group.
- [122:21]
A
Right.
- [122:22]
B
And so if you ask someone from a completely different tribe, hey, what do you think of the use of this? Like, yeah, who cares? It's like, well, it might not be necessarily what your tribe connects to spiritually.
- [122:32]
A
Yeah. And, you know, yeah, they are on a spectrum. Some are worse than others. Sure.
- [122:39]
B
Yeah.
- [122:39]
A
But at the same time, I think we'd all acknowledge, no matter what your politics or feelings are, that there's a controversy around it.
- [122:46]
B
Sure, Yeah. I mean, I can recognize the term Redskin is going to be more egregious than Blackhawk or Seminole.
- [122:52]
A
So it's just. This is another question. We only have so much time in a day. Do you want to spend your day fighting over a mascot? Because if you go with lions, tigers and bears controversies behind you, you don't have to fight that fight anymore. You don't have to justify anymore. And ultimately, our national sports culture should be something that people from all groups can engage with. It could actually pull us together instead of divide us. So it's kind of also inimical to that mission.
- [123:28]
B
I think growing up, for me, I had a perspective of reservations as not being great places, that this as a system for reparation for Native people was not particularly successful, that it was too little, too late. The casino system and sort of, I don't know, conciliation perhaps creates a lot of corruption, and there's a lack of incentive for many people to live on rez. And as a result, drug and alcohol use runs rampant and is just a further decay of the Native culture. I think this is sort of my outside perspective, having never been on a Res and speaking to very few native people.
- [124:12]
A
And one time I had. I was at a Rotary meeting or something. Someone says, well, if reservations are so bad, why don't you just leave? And I was thinking, have you watched American politics in the news lately? If America's so bad, why don't you just leave? That the issue might not be just the issues, but that you're only hearing about the negative issues. And there are a lot of things wrong in America, but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything wonderful happening in America, too. Yes, there is sexism, but that doesn't mean that every woman in America wants to leave America. There's racism. It doesn't mean every person of color wants to get out. We want it to be better and different. And I feel like that about Native communities. There's so many beautiful things. Should I really walk away from the forest where all of our placentas have been buried for generations because a white person thinks it's really a bad place to be? Should I walk away from our customs and our traditions and our community? And I found plenty of success. All the different kinds of success. I'm really a happy person. I love living in my native community. I feel way safer in my native community than I do coming to visit in the Bronx. So it's silliness, really. That doesn't mean that there are not problems any more than there are not American problems. Somewhere there are. But of all the things wrong in Native communities, it can be fixed by what's right in Native communities. And I got called to Milax. It's the next res over a couple years before the pandemic. And they said, we would like to do something meaningful about the revitalization of our tribal language. And this is a tribe with a successful gaming tribe. So, by the way, from the advent of the first casino there, they saved half their money. So now their endowment produces more money than casinos. They put an elder in every classroom in the tribal school. They pay spiritual leaders and give them offices next to the medical doctors in the clinic so people can integrate modern medicine and their traditional ways. They built a beautiful ceremonial dance hall in each of their communities. And on a Friday night or a Saturday night, when a lot of young people across America are looking for a party, their ceremonial dance hall is full of hundreds of people, from little babies to elders, eating healthy food, dancing together, moving to the music, and learning about their language and culture. And it is healthy. It's a healthy place. It is. There are individuals who are exemplars of Health, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. And there's a community that's doing something really healthy. And a lot of people just don't have a clue that that's even possible in a Native space. That doesn't mean that there aren't problems. In 1969, 57% of the native population was below the poverty line. 57%. Today it's at around 20% now. 20% is not okay. That is way too high. We called it the Great Depression in America when we had an unemployment rate at, you know, 15%. So, you know, the Great Depression started when white folks showed up, and it's never ended at the same time. And that's an indictment on America and its oppressions, not Native people and their lack of a work ethic. At the same time, we just shaved whatever 37 points off of indigenous poverty. That has to be one of the fastest growth rates out of poverty for any group in the country. That's not because of a US Government intervention. That's something tribes did for themselves. So instead of paternalism and pity, how did they do that? How can everyone else ally themselves to that? How can we learn from that and apply that to everyone and everything else? And that can move us from the paternalism and pity into partnership, which is where we should be. Because I don't know how many of you have approached a friendship or a marriage or a working relationship with paternalism and pity and had it work really well.
- [129:25]
B
Never.
- [129:26]
A
Right.
- [129:26]
B
It's infantilizing. It feels wrong. Yeah. I mean, and I think so many people feel that way where there is a pity, like, oh, so sad people.
- [129:37]
A
Are enculturated to a Jesus complex about things. At that meeting in Mille Lacs, they said, we would like to do something meaningful for our language and we're going to make an investment. I said, how big? They said, $14 million. And so there's more to the context of what was happening in the community and other things. And they really didn't have a very high fluency rate. And so I said, it's going to be hard to send all your elders to college and get them teaching degrees and start a new school. Let's do something different. So we started working on Rosetta Stone, developing books, and we had to pull in a lot of people to partnerships. We even convinced our state Historical society to publish monolingual Ojibwe language books, even though no one on their staff could read them. Wow. You know, there's a lot of faith in all the folks working on it. They lost 20% of their fluent speakers during the pandemic, that was no joke. But when we came out of it, we were finally safe enough to celebrate Rosetta Stone and the new books and things like that. And we asked Joan Akweneby to speak. He's one of the ceremonial drum chiefs. He'd lost a brother and a sister during the pandemic. And he said, you know, we've been through a lot. We've been through a lot the past few years, and we've been through a lot the past few hundred years. But I have to say, seeing all of these people coming around, seeing what we've been able to build, knowing that our elders will be teaching people our language for hundreds of years to come, I have to say that this has been the happiest time of my life. Paternalism and pity. You know, I think there's something pretty amazing, beautiful and dynamic happening there. And by the way, the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe then can turn around and say, we hire lots of non Native people here. We expect everybody who works here to demonstrate this level of competency with our tribal language. Here's the tool to do it. The assessments are built right in. You have one year from date of hire. Welcome to our Native nation. And so language revitalization is about health, sovereignty, community, and they're going to recuperate their entire investment over the life of the product. Wow.
- [131:52]
B
Do you believe casinos were a helpful or beneficial concession to the Native populations?
- [131:57]
A
Like so many things. Do you think modern corporations have been beneficial to white people?
- [132:02]
B
Yes and no.
- [132:03]
A
Right? It's kind of like that.
- [132:05]
B
Yeah.
- [132:06]
A
You know, yeah. Corporations. Well, capitalism sucks. And it's been really horrible to so many people. And in spite of how horrible it's been, our standard of living is higher than it's ever been. We don't have to spend 100% of our time just harvesting food. Like, there have been positives and negatives, and it's all wrapped up together. I feel like with casinos, I understand that there are tax on the poor, essentially because people who are economically disadvantaged are most likely to patronize the establishments and can't always afford to. That is not really my idea of the healthiest way to spend your time looking at a machine. And at the same time, the influx of capital to the places that have been doing it has enabled them to do all kinds of things. We talked about what Mille Lacs did, and they have a diversified business plan. I said, why are we sending our money to a non Native bank? They bought the bank wow. They operate many different hotels throughout the Twin Cities Metro, not just on their reservation. They're very sensible about their investments. And. And today there is political acumen, academic acumen. They do not have embezzlement or corruption scandals. Power to the people. There have been lots of positive things that have come out of it, and it's complex, but no one else is going to help Malax. If they didn't build the casino when the opportunity arose, they'd still be sitting at 57%.
- [133:53]
B
Yeah. If not more. Yeah.
- [133:56]
A
And they have found a way, adapting to the unique circumstances that they were in, to build a better life for their citizenry. So power to them. You know, I do think, you know, it's good for tribes to look at the kind of model that Mille Lacs developed and other places like that, diversify the business plan, think about the social supports, cultural supports, language supports, and invest for the future. And some places have done better than others or grown faster than others. But I don't think it is or should be up to anyone outside of a Native community to say, we know better than you what's best for you. And what's best for you is not casinos or something else. Because everything anyone else has come up with has been horrible. Residential boarding schools, forced endemic poverty, all these different things. It's never been positive. So I feel very hopeful about the future, and I would trust Native people to steward our future in Native communities better than anybody else.
- [135:09]
B
Okay, last question, and this one is controversial. So I'm curious what you think. I've heard that there is a substance abuse issue on reservations. Is that true and if so, why?
- [135:23]
A
It is also complex. There is a substance abuse issue across America and around the world, and the substances are equal opportunity killers and life destroyers. I think it is true that those who are economically disadvantaged are more vulnerable to traumas, human trafficking, and the attendant or correlating substance abuse intersectionality. The data says poor people and people of color, including indigenous people, do have higher rates of substance abuse. And I think that it is the correlation between disadvantage and denial of opportunity, rather than something inherent to racial characteristics that drive that. And it is also true that Native people have disproportionately higher rates of abstinence. And I certainly see that in our cultural space. And it's not just because so many recovering addicts or something like that that I don't use. And that's not because I have an addiction issue. It's because I officiate at ceremonies where some of the people coming through the door are looking for healing from that. And I wouldn't want to adopt a lifestyle that would be distracting to anybody on their healing journey. And other people have other reasons for whatever they decide to do.
- [137:24]
B
Well, Anton, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time. This is, this has been amazing. I know there's a lot of fetishization of Native culture and so I understand sharing specifically like the particulars of the ceremonial and spiritual components. I wouldn't want you to feel like it's in bad faith or bad hands. So I really appreciate it. Open and just educating the audience and myself included to the beauty, I think, of Ojibwe customs and I guess shining a broader light and sanitizing, I guess, the dark spots in American history as far as the genocide and treatment of Native people in America. So simultaneously educating and I guess encouraging. I feel inspired to learn more. So if I was interested or anyone watching is interested in learning more about the Ojibwe Native cultures at large or about you and your work, where can they find you?
- [138:17]
A
Oh yeah, there's so many wonderful voices out there. I really encourage people go to the source, check out Native authored books and voices and there's so many of them out there. Louise Erdrich just won a Pulitzer Prize. Angeline Boulies, a New York Times bestseller. With regard to my work, we'll make sure we add this to the show notes for anybody to click around and find a little bit more. I've published well over 20 books and the most recent one is called Where Wolves Don't Die. It's a YA thriller and tender coming of age story that'll give you a window into Ojibwe culture. Just the sort of things we've been talking about. And I've got many others too. So there's everything you wanted to know about Indians, but we're afraid to ask. Also, the cultural toolbox, if you want a deeper dive into Ojibwe culture. And all the things are available on Amazon and everywhere good books are sold and I've got a YouTube channel and lots of ways to to connect and learn more. Look forward to hearing from you.
- [139:16]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And if there's any Ojibwe folks that are listening right now, would you mind just sending us off maybe with a message to them in your native Ojibwe language?
- [139:26]
A
Miigwei chapaji Bisindawie gepagish Minwen demeg minaway ganonadiung ni gon miigwec.
- [139:33]
B
Thank you so much, Anton. If you've made it to the end of this episode. That's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you. You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest, true communication. A highbrowed type of person that understands this. History is not just dates and names. It is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy, from the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revere took his midnight ride from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for Today in History. Our free newsletter Today in History brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything, and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History because history's stories shape tomorrow's world. Thank you for watching the episode.
- [140:31]
A
We'll see you next time.