Loading summary
Mark Gagdon
The origins of Satan. When you hear the word Satan, you probably think of like this singular malevolent being, this villain in the cosmic battle.
Christos
Between good and evil.
Mark Gagdon
But in the Hebrew Bible, Satan wasn't anything like the devil. We know from Christian theology. In fact, Satan wasn't even a name. It was just a title. In the Book of Job, Satan appears among the sons of God. Satan in the Hebrew Bible isn't some rogue agent against God. He's firmly under divine control. His role is less about spreading chaos and more about ensuring just by exposing human weakness. Mastema, a figure equated with Satan, requests permission from God to keep some demons.
Christos
On earth to tempt humans.
Mark Gagdon
John's gospel refers to Satan as the ruler of the world, kind of suggesting.
Christos
His influence over the earth.
Mark Gagdon
Satan wasn't always portrayed as this terrifying figure in medieval culture. In some medieval mystery plays, he appears as a comedic character. So we're going to go all the way back through the history of Satan. Where is Satan from? What's his whole vibe? Where did he grow up? We're going to figure it all out today. So sit back, relax, strap in. What's up, people?
Christos
And welcome back to religion camp.
Mark Gagdon
My name is Mark Gagdon, and welcome to my tent, where I explore the most interesting, fascinating and controversial topics from all religions from around the world, from all times. I'm joined today by my friend Christos. How are you?
Zach
What's up, everybody?
Mark Gagdon
Typically producing from beyond the tent, but today he has entered the holiest of chambers, the holiest of holies, to discuss an interesting topic. The origins of Satan.
Zach
El Diablo.
Mark Gagdon
Exactly.
Christos
It's an interesting question.
Mark Gagdon
Satan, right? Because for me, I grew up Catholic. Satan just always was right. Like, it's just. It's like the origin of God. It's like, yeah, there is none. He's God, I guess. Like, maybe not he always was, but, like, my conception is like a Catholic is like, all right, God created angels. He made one angel that was like, sick as hell, literally, and was like.
Christos
Running the show with all the other angels.
Mark Gagdon
He played music. He got very prideful. He didn't want to serve humanity, got banished out of the kingdom of heaven, went to hell with a legion of demons, and then, yeah, just runs hell. And then God is in heaven, running heaven. And then God gives Satan dominion over the earth. That's what I was taught as a child.
Zach
Well, they say Satan was a fallen angel.
Mark Gagdon
Exactly right.
Dave
That's what I was just saying.
Mark Gagdon
Oh, sorry, Christos.
Zach
I was. I was lost in your eyes.
Dave
Oh, dude, it's Been a dry season.
Zach
It's okay. It's turning around.
Christos
That is what people say, that he.
Mark Gagdon
Was a fallen angel. And by people, that's what I say just moments ago. But so, yeah, to me it's like, yeah, it's just fundamental. But again, it seems like Satan or some type of adversary exists in a.
Christos
Bunch of different cultures throughout a bunch.
Mark Gagdon
Of different time periods. It seems like our depiction of a modern Satan with like a, you know.
Christos
Pointy tail and red and, you know, cute, high ass.
Zach
South Park's depiction of the devil is the best, I think.
Mark Gagdon
Can you pull that up?
Dave
Of course. I would love to see.
Mark Gagdon
But like, where did that come from?
Christos
Like, who was that?
Mark Gagdon
Say, that's not really in the Bible. It's not like, oh, he's got a pitchfork and he's got, you know, red horns. Like so there's all these kinds of things where it's like you think, you.
Dave
Know, oh, with the goat feet. That's sort of sick. Sick little belt buckle.
Zach
That's the best.
Dave
Yeah, that one's. That one's pretty good.
Mark Gagdon
I like Tenacious D, Satan.
Zach
Tenacious D?
Dave
Yeah, it's Tenacious D tribute Satan. You've never heard of Tenacious D?
Zach
I've heard of Tenacious Jack Black and exactly this guy.
Dave
Yeah, it's a sick ass Satan. But yeah, there's actually kind of a similar vibe. He's got the goat feet too.
Zach
Oh, does he?
Dave
Yeah, look at that. If you click on the right one. Wait, Dave Grohl says what? It was pretty fun dressing up like the devil.
Christos
Hold on.
Dave
Did Dave Grohl play Satan in the music video?
Zach
Apparently.
Dave
No way. I mean, that's. What a world. So Dave Gro is my favorite Satan.
Mark Gagdon
Anyway, so we're going to go all the way back through the history of Satan, going all the way back to Zoran, Astrianism, Canaanites, the Hebrew Bible, all the way into Christianity, the New Testament.
Christos
We're talking about Enoch and the Dead Sea squirrels and how Satan exists in those ancient texts.
Mark Gagdon
And then what Satan was really up to, tempting Jesus in the wilderness. And then medieval Satan, like how it got blended with pagan gods and you know, kind of takes on this, this idea and like Dante's Inferno and like the. That there's this, this pit in the center of the earth where, you know, the evil incarnate resides.
Zach
So if you believe in Dante's Inferno, the devil is kind of the final boss of hell, I think.
Mark Gagdon
I've never actually read the works of Dante, so I don't I don't really know the order of.
Christos
Of hell.
Mark Gagdon
That's probably what the book is about. But I assume, I mean, I don't know what's more evil than the devil, right? Like, if you're writing a book and you're like, what's the evil thing? You'd be like, yeah, the devil is the evil, right? Regardless, we're gonna figure it all out today. So sit back, relax and strap in. But before we do that, I also just want to give a quick shout out. We have merch on the website campgoods Co soon to be renamed, I think in the new drop. We should do some religious merch. We should do something sick biblically accurate. Angel, you on the crucifix.
Zach
That'd be great.
Mark Gagdon
That would be great.
Dave
It might be sacrilegious.
Mark Gagdon
But also, without even really meaning to do that, people have already said that. Like I did that. We did one episode about the, you know, all the evidence that Christ existed as a person on earth. And all the comments were like, why'd you guys put Jesus as a white.
Christos
Guy in the thumbnail?
Mark Gagdon
And I was like, that is just me. Like they thought that. They thought I was trying to be G. I was like, bro, that's just what I look like. Yeah, but you know, dress for the job you want. And then additionally, I'm on the road. So if you would like to come see me do one singular hour of stand up comedy, you can catch tickets@themarketyagon.com I'm going all over a bunch of tour dates. Maybe we plug that later, maybe now. A bunch of cities, I mean, should I go through them right now? Charleston, Atlanta, Stroudsburg, Hoboken, Indianapolis, Buffalo, Raleigh, Portland, Fort Worth, Austin, Stanford, Philadelphia, Levittown, Chandler, Arizona, San Diego, Toronto, Montreal, Poughkeepsie, and probably a few more gonna get added along the way. You can get all those tickets@the markagon.com now let's get into it. All right? Where is Satan from? What's his whole vibe? Where did he grow up, you know, what town is Chicago? What's your guess?
Christos
I don't know.
Mark Gagdon
I don't know where Satan's really from. Long before the Bible was written, ancient civilizations, we're trying to figure out this concept of good versus evil, right? Like people can just naturally deduce we.
Christos
Live in a world with good, right?
Mark Gagdon
You have children, you have a nice meal, your friend farts near a fire, you're having a nice laugh. So that's pretty good. But then also there's disease, war, Death, all this evil stuff that exists. Innocent people just, you know, getting illnesses. Or an arrow flies over your campsite and just hits your mom in the head and you're like, damn, that sucks.
Christos
Why is.
Mark Gagdon
Why would that happen to me? And from an early, early time in human history, people try to figure it out. Where does evil come from?
Christos
And these early adversarial beings that people.
Mark Gagdon
Were kind of putting together weren't necessarily the ultimate embodiment of evil, but they played a role within their specific pantheons. So we're going to Persia. You know about Persia a little bit. AKA Iran. Modern day, AKA Persia. I don't know any Iranian that says they're Iranian. They're all like, yeah, I'm Persian. Like, where are you from?
Zach
That is interesting. There's this influencer guy. Have you seen him? He's like super hairy, but he walks around without a shirt on. He's like one of these Rizz gods.
Dave
No.
Zach
And he.
Dave
Yeah.
Zach
Do you want to see him?
Mark Gagdon
I mean. Yeah. I'm on the edge of my seat.
Dave
What kind of, what kind of a cliffhanger is this?
Mark Gagdon
What does he do?
Zach
He raises up girls, even though he has a sweater of hair on his body.
Mark Gagdon
Girls like that?
Dave
Christos, that's what we need to know. You should know this as a swearing.
Zach
I can tell you that they don't.
Christos
No, they just don't like you.
Mark Gagdon
But they like the hair.
Zach
That's a good point.
Mark Gagdon
They. They really like the hair, to be honest with you.
Zach
I'll tell you this about body hair. The girls that don't like it really don't like it, but the girls that do like it, like it a lot.
Mark Gagdon
That's great.
Dave
So it just weeds them out.
Zach
Yeah, literally.
Dave
Like they're gonna be weeding in your body here. I'll be honest.
Zach
Let me get to it.
Mark Gagdon
I think this is the lost cause. If you can't find it within a 60 second Google search, I think we just gotta keep on moving. Okay, so we're going to Persia and we're gonna talk about Zoroastrianism, one of the world's oldest continuously practiced religions. That's what I've always been told is like, arguably the oldest. This will be contested though. People don't like it when you say that. Specifically Hindus and Buddhists, they're like, no, no, we're the oldest. At the heart of Zoroastrianism beliefs that.
Christos
There is a battle between good and.
Mark Gagdon
Evil, personified by two primordial spirits at Hura Mazda and Angra Mainyu Ahura Mazda is the wise Lord and basically represents everything that's good. The light, order, you know, the is the creator God, the source of wisdom. And on the other hand you have the Angra Main you whose name literally means destructive spirit. And this entity just is everything evil, dark and shitty that exists in the world. The Angra Mainyu isn't just a minor nuisance.
Christos
This is a powerful force that actively.
Mark Gagdon
Opposes the Ahura Mazda and all of its creation. The Mainyu is responsible for death, disease and literally all the suffering in the world. So in many ways the Angra Mainyu serves as a prototype for later concepts of Satan. He's not seen as a lesser, you know, to the good God, but exists.
Christos
As an independent primordial force of evil.
Mark Gagdon
It's also worth noting before we get.
Christos
Any deeper in this, this is kind.
Mark Gagdon
Of going be examined from a quasi secular worldview.
Christos
If you believe that Satan is, you.
Mark Gagdon
Know, this eternal evil being that has no McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with.
Dave
One of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece.
Mark Gagdon
McNuggets with spicy nether Flame sauce. Now available with a Minecraft movie meal at participating McDonald's for a limited time. A Minecraft movie only in theaters.
Unknown
Spring Fest and Ego Days are here at Lowe's right now. Get a free select EGO 56 volt battery with purchase of a select trimmer, blower or mower kit. Plus shop today for new and exclusive items you need for your lawn. So get ready for spring with the latest in innovation From Ego, the 1 rated brand in cordless outdoor power only at Lowes. We help you Save offer valid through 42 Selection Varies by location while supplies last.
Mark Gagdon
You know, source other than God then some of this examination might be, you know, outside of your faith background.
Dave
Additionally, a lot of this information was.
Mark Gagdon
Put together by my friend Zach. Good old Zach, just a country boy from Mississippi and he put together this six script. So I'm going to be learning along with you and then fact checking as I'm going along. If I miss anything, please don't hesitate to call me out. So the Zoroastrian worldview presents a dualistic.
Christos
Cosmos where good and evil are locked.
Mark Gagdon
In this eternal struggle. The idea of cosmic dualism later influences, you know, Judaism, obviously Christianity, basically all the Abrahamic religions. And as we move westward to the land of Canaan, we see another fascinating figure, Rayshef. Unlike Angra Mainyu, Rayshef isn't only evil. In fact his role is like kind of like complicated.
Dave
Can we get a Picture of Rayshev.
Christos
This is an ancient West Semitic God.
Mark Gagdon
Associated with plague, war and just like kind of ruled hell. And his name appears in text dating back to, I mean, I think it's like the third millennium BC showing just how ancient this, you know, Reshef is. And Richef was likely worshiped across the near east from Anatolia in modern day Turkey, so Cyprus, and some people say even in Egypt.
Dave
Oh wow, this is a creepy looking guy. Oh, it's Egyptian vibes. Reichef. Oh wow.
Mark Gagdon
I mean that's pretty crazy. From Turkey to Egypt. I mean that's a long way for people to be worshiping this God of plague and war. There are some ancient texts from the city of Ugarit, which is in Syria.
Christos
That describe Reshef as a gatekeeper of.
Mark Gagdon
The sun goddess and the guardian of the netherworld. He's also portrayed as the lord of battle, fire and disease. I mean that's crazy. He's a deity that's unleashing plagues with a bow and arrow. And this association with archery wasn't just metaphorical. In the Egyptian icons, Reshef is often depicted as a warrior God brandishing weapons. The Pharaoh Amenhotep 2 even considered reshef his personal military protector. That's crazy.
Dave
I mean, do we get the, do we got the image of him or.
Mark Gagdon
Is the, is the screen still bugging out of Raychef?
Dave
Yeah. Can you just highlight one of those? Okay. With a sick. Oh, he's from Philly or something. Sick beard. I mean he looks like fully, fully Egyptian.
Zach
Looks like it was a time before.
Dave
Yeah, he's an Egyptian dude. Yeah, I mean that's, that's. I mean, yeah, they said third, third century B.C. so it's been, it's been a minute.
Mark Gagdon
But yeah, that's, that's wild. So this guy was just a God of war and he had a special connection to the city of Shekem, an important Canaanite city that later became the capital of Samaria. According to the text from Ebla, Reshef.
Christos
Was the patron God of Shechem.
Mark Gagdon
This local connection shows how deeply embedded these deities were in the daily lives of these ancient people.
Dave
That's interesting.
Mark Gagdon
And Reshef wasn't only a war God. In some context, he was associated with.
Christos
Not only war, but also of fertility and well being. And the duality of the deity showcased.
Mark Gagdon
The nature of how people kind of viewed these gods as often, you know, both destructive and beneficial to the people. The worship of Reshef spread far and wide in the second millennium. The cult of Reshem moved from Syria.
Christos
To Palestine and then to Egypt.
Mark Gagdon
In later periods, it was sometimes identifying with other gods like the Babylonian Nergal or the Greek Apollo, showing how religious ideas blend and evolve over time. What's up, camp family? What's up, campers?
Christos
Two big announcements. Don't skip this.
Mark Gagdon
Two massive announce the merch store is back open.
Christos
That's right.
Mark Gagdon
Camp goods is back in stock. We got these hats that I'm wearing right now. I've been rocking them both on here on flagrant. I've been wearing them on stage. We got a bunch more hats like the ones behind me. You can see them all here on the website. We also got some shirts. Oh, man.
Christos
What is this one right here?
Mark Gagdon
Come on now.
Christos
Come on now.
Mark Gagdon
Camp gear for all terrain. We got some other ones. What is this one right here? Oh, this one's beautiful. This one might be one of my favorites.
Christos
The colors.
Mark Gagdon
The colors are absolutely crazy. Uh, this is Camp Gagnon vintage wisdom across the globe. Come on now. We got all that and more on the store. We also got these sick mugs right here. You might have seen me maybe sipping from one of these in some of the recent episodes. These are sick. They are all available on the website campgoods Co.
Dave
Check it out.
Mark Gagdon
Link is in the description. And by supporting the merchandise, you are obviously supporting the show. You're supporting me, and you're obviously, you know, supporting all the amazing people that make the show happen, like Christos, who is currently throwing me T shirts from underneath this desk here. So please check that out. Additionally, I'm on the road. That's right. I'm doing my one hour of stand up comedy. Some of some of the greatest jokes ever written. Okay, that's not true, but they are my jokes and I wrote them. I'll be in Portland, Maine on April 27th. And that one I'm doing with Joey Avery. You know Joey Avery, a friend of the show.
Christos
He sat across from me many times.
Mark Gagdon
And I'm explaining some things to him. And he might be my dumb friend, but he is a brilliant stand up comedian. And we will be there in Portland, Maine. If you are in these areas, please come out. And we're adding a ton of dates.
Christos
All through the summer.
Mark Gagdon
So check out my website, themarkagnon.com for all tour dates and updated info. Come hang out with me. I talk to every single person after the show. If you want to kick it with me, maybe have a drink, I'll be there and I will see you guys on the road. Now let's get back to the show. Here is a bullet. Imagine this.
Unknown
You're 30ft underground, digging through frozen earth with spoons and mess hall plates. Nazi guards patrol overhead. One wrong move, one loose pebble, and it's over. But on this night in 1944, 76 Allied prisoners would attempt the impossible, tunneling their way to freedom in the largest prisoner of war escape of World War II. And centuries earlier, in a cold stone chamber, a teenage girl in armor stood before her accusers. Her crime? Leading armies, speaking to angels, and daring to challenge the most powerful men in Europe. Joan of Arc's trial would become one of history's most infamous moments. These are just two stories from Today in History, the newsletter that brings you.
Mark Gagdon
The most fascinating events from the past.
Unknown
Delivered fresh to your inbox. From epic wars to religious rebellions, ancient mysteries to modern marvels, don't miss another piece of history. Scan the QR code now or click.
Christos
The link in the description to sign.
Unknown
Up for Today in History.
Mark Gagdon
And then there's Mesopotamia. This is basically the bread basket of American or of global civilization, also American civilization. Here we find basically a rich tapestry of beliefs about demons, evil spirits that would later influence Christianity, also Judaism, but mostly Christianity. In Mesopotamian thought, demons weren't necessarily the.
Christos
Embodiment of pure evil as we might think of them.
Mark Gagdon
Instead, they were often seen as, like.
Christos
Spirits of lesser power than the major deities.
Mark Gagdon
These demons could be hostile, causing, you know, trouble for humans to disease and even giving people, like, random headaches.
Dave
Oh, that's a.
Mark Gagdon
That's not that far.
Dave
Mesopotamia from Egypt.
Mark Gagdon
Yeah.
Dave
I mean, it's like a stone's throw. You could walk that.
Mark Gagdon
Where's.
Dave
I mean, Mesopotamia.
Mark Gagdon
I mean, what, the. The Tigris and the Euphrates, right?
Dave
That's the two rivers. Yep.
Zach
That's where. That's the reason they had all that rich soil or silt.
Dave
Yeah, it was called. You could farm, like, hella. Hella on that, right?
Zach
Hella.
Dave
Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, we got to go to Mesopotamia. That should be fire. What's. What is modern Mesopotamia? Where. What's. What's the vibe with that now? Turkey, Iran and Syria. Kuwait also. Wow.
Zach
Yeah, we got a needle of civilization.
Mark Gagdon
That's where it started. That's what I've always heard.
Zach
Is this also where Tino Tiklan was?
Mark Gagdon
Tino Chitlan.
Zach
Yeah.
Mark Gagdon
It's in South America or Central America. Mexico, I believe.
Zach
Never mind.
Mark Gagdon
But there's probably some versions of it over there, you know, I mean, where was Hammurabi from? Hammurabi Is, I think, Egyptian. I want to say maybe Mesopotamian.
Zach
Gotcha.
Mark Gagdon
But he wrote that whole code, I.
Zach
Guess I for an eye.
Christos
But where was he?
Dave
Where is he from?
Zach
Hammurabi, The Babylonian empire.
Dave
Ah. Where's modern day Babylonia?
Zach
Modern day. Why is everything in Iraq?
Mark Gagdon
Wow, Mesopotamia.
Dave
That's right, it is Iraq. Yeah.
Christos
So let's jump in.
Mark Gagdon
Obviously, the idea of good versus evil, the idea of, you know, some type of evil force that controlled the world is ancient. It's been going on for a long time. I mean, all the way back to Mesopotamia to, you know, Persia. Zoroastrian faith traditions had an evil spirit.
Christos
The Angra Mainyu, that opposed the creator.
Mark Gagdon
Spirit, the Ahura Mazda.
Christos
Canaanite mythology had Reshef, the God of.
Mark Gagdon
Plague and war, but also was the God of fertility and of plenty. And all throughout Mesopotamian beliefs, there were.
Christos
All sorts of different demons that were battling each other. And people say, or scholars rather suggest.
Mark Gagdon
That these early prototypical versions of Satan actually influenced what authors and artists would understand as the Jewish or the Christian version of Satan as it appears in the Torah or in the Bible. So when you hear the word Satan, you probably think of like this singular malevolent being, this villain and cosmic battle.
Christos
Between good and evil.
Mark Gagdon
But in the Hebrew Bible, Satan wasn't.
Christos
Anything like the devil we know from Christian theology.
Mark Gagdon
In fact, Satan wasn't even a name, it was just a title. So the Hebrew word Satan literally means adversary or accuser.
Christos
It comes from the root verb that means to oppose or to obstruct.
Mark Gagdon
In its earliest use, the term didn't refer to specific beings, but was more of a general term for anyone or anything that acted as an opponent. So, for example, 1st Samuel 29:4, the Philistines called David a potential Satan because.
Christos
They fear he may turn against them in battle.
Mark Gagdon
Here David is simply an adversary, not a supernatural force.
Christos
Numbers 22 22.
Mark Gagdon
The angel of Yahweh is described as acting as a Satan to Balaam, standing in his way to oppose him. Again, this is to obstruct, not necessarily malevolence. So that's interesting because the angel of Yahweh is obviously not evil, but is acting as an adversary, a Satan. However, when the term appears with the definite article the the adversary, it takes a more specific role. This isn't just any adversary. It is the figure operating within God's divine council tasked with testing or accusing individuals. So the clearest example of Hasatan appears.
Christos
In the book of Job and Zechariah.
Mark Gagdon
In these texts, Satan isn't an independent being working against God.
Christos
Instead, he is a part of God's heavenly court.
Mark Gagdon
That's interesting. Think of him as like a prosecuting attorney. So people will say that in the book of Job, the accuser Hasatan, Satan, as we understand him to be, appears among the sons of God, a term often used for divine beings in the Hebrew Bible. Maybe because he was an angel that was fallen. That's interesting. Satan challenges Job's righteousness, arguing that Job is only faithful because he's been blessed.
Christos
With wealth and comfort.
Mark Gagdon
He essentially says to God, take it.
Christos
All away and Job will curse you. What happens next? God allows Satan to test Job by taking away his wealth, killing his children.
Mark Gagdon
And afflicting him with painful sores, all without directly harming Job himself. But despite these trials, Job remains faithful. Here, Satan isn't acting necessarily out of.
Christos
Rebellion or hatred for humanity. He's fulfilling a role within God's system.
Mark Gagdon
A role that involves questioning and testing.
Christos
Human loyalty to God.
Mark Gagdon
That's interesting. I never knew that story through that lens. I never heard it that way.
Zach
How did you hear it?
Mark Gagdon
I always heard it that, you know, Satan was like, the only reason this guy's faithful is because he's got all this money. Let me take it all away and I'll prove that he's not faithful. And then Satan tested Job over and over and over, took everything away. And yet Job remained faithful.
Christos
And God allowed this to happen because.
Mark Gagdon
He allows Satan to operate, you know, with impunity on earth and kind of spread malevolence as he wishes. Because at the end of time, God.
Dave
Will get real Satan.
Mark Gagdon
That's what I heard as a kid. But it wasn't necessarily like God employed Satan to do this or asked Satan or kind of sent Satan to go do his bidding and challenge Job.
Christos
Whereas it seems like in this interpretation.
Mark Gagdon
It is that way.
Zach
He contracted Jesus, contracted the devil.
Mark Gagdon
Exactly. Subbed him out, you know what I mean? Went to, you know, got a subcontractor from like his brother in law, right? And was like, hey, you're the devil, hook it up, you know what I mean? So there's another one. The book of Zechariah.
Christos
Zechariah 3:1 and 2.
Mark Gagdon
Satan stands at the right hand of.
Christos
Joshua, the high priest, to accuse him before God.
Mark Gagdon
Joshua represents Israel as a nation returning from exile and seeking restoration. Satan argues that Joshua, and by extension.
Christos
Israel, is unworthy of this restoration due to their sins. However, God rebukes Satan and declares Joshua clean.
Mark Gagdon
Again, we see Satan functioning as an.
Christos
Accuser rather than an independent force of evil. He's there to challenge and test, but ultimately operates under God's authority.
Mark Gagdon
I feel like that's always what I was kind of taught, that Satan can't do anything without God's will. Like, God lets it happen. He doesn't require it or make it happen. He just allows it to happen. That's what I was talking.
Zach
Which is kind of also the way he acts in every movie that he's depicted in, right?
Christos
That God has the ultimate power, but.
Mark Gagdon
Allows Satan to do as he wishes.
Zach
I'm saying, like, Satan is the precipitator, right? He allows certain things to happen. Think of him in where Elizabeth Hurley plays him. She just grants three wishes and then takes someone's soul.
Mark Gagdon
She's the devil.
Zach
Those wishes are inherently evil. And then the devil's advocate with Keanu Reeves, same kind of deal.
Mark Gagdon
It's actually about to get a little bit spicier here.
Christos
One detail about Haseitan in these stories.
Mark Gagdon
Is that he doesn't act on his own initiative.
Christos
He requires permission from God to carry out the task.
Mark Gagdon
For example, in Job, God explicitly grades Satan permission to test Job, but sets clear limits on what he can do.
Christos
And in Zechariah, God directly intervenes to shut down Satan's accusation against Joshua.
Mark Gagdon
I feel like that contradicts God intervening to shut down Satan's accusation. That seems like that's what God's supposed to do, right? And then God allowing Satan to test, it's like, all right, God could do that hypothetically to teach some type of point. But that still doesn't seem like Satan's operating with, you know, his own volition.
Zach
It feels like he's limiting Satan's power to do what he does.
Christos
Right.
Mark Gagdon
This dynamic underscores that Satan in the.
Christos
Hebrew Bible isn't some rogue agent against God. He's firmly under divine control.
Mark Gagdon
His role is less about spreading chaos and more about ensuring justice by exposing human weakness. I don't know. I've based off of this, I don't feel like that's a compelling argument, personally.
Zach
Why?
Mark Gagdon
Like what? Like, I don't see how. Like, it's not like God is like, hey, Satan, go and test Job.
Christos
Satan's going to God being like, hey.
Mark Gagdon
I need to test Job, and he lets it happen. And then in Zechariah, it just seems like Satan is accusing Joshua and then God intervenes. So that feels like it has almost nothing to do with it. Seems like God comes and saves the day. Good versus evil.
Dave
Right?
Mark Gagdon
And so this idea that his role isn't about spreading chaos, it's about ensuring justice. I'm like, I don't know. That seems like a stretch based off the interpretation. Maybe there's something I'm missing here, but I don't know. It's also worth noting that the early versions of Satan is far removed from the, you know, horned figure over hell today. The Hebrew Bible never describes Satan's ruling.
Christos
Over hell or any realm at all.
Mark Gagdon
I didn't know that. There's no mention of him being a fallen angel or leading a rebellion against God. That idea comes much later in Jewish.
Christos
And Christian thought during the second Temple period.
Mark Gagdon
That's interesting. The term Satan is used sparingly in the Hebrew Bible only 26 times. And most occurrences don't even refer to a supernatural being, but rather human adversaries. Also interesting, this early portrayal shows that.
Christos
Ancient Jewish theology didn't have a fully.
Mark Gagdon
Developed concept of cosmic dualism where God and evil are locked in this conflict.
Christos
Instead, Hasatan was a part of a.
Mark Gagdon
Larger divine system designed to test humanity. If Hasatan wasn't originally the devil, how do we go from this kind of, you know, justice figure to evil? And again, that's, I mean, I don't necessarily even buy that. It seems like from this, I mean, I don't know the, the details of the, the Hebrew Bible's description of Satan. I don't know if they have that. I actually don't even know if it's in like the Christian Bible, like where as Satan rules hell. Can you Google that? Can you just check if that's a, that's a thing? I'm. I don't know where that would be.
Christos
It seems like during the Second Temple.
Mark Gagdon
Period, this is 539 B.C.
Christos
To 70 B.C.
Mark Gagdon
Or 70 A.D. jewish communities were exposed to Persian Zoroastrians, which featured a clear dualistic struggle between good and evil. Apocalyptic literature like the Book of Enoch began exploring ideas about fallen angels corrupting humanity.
Christos
These influences gradually reshape how Jews understood.
Mark Gagdon
Figures like Ha Satan transforming him something closer to what we understand as the devil.
Christos
Interesting.
Dave
The Christian Bible does not state that the devil or Satan rules hell. That's fascinating. The Bible describes Satan as being cast into a lake of fire as punishment for his rebellion against God. The Bible portrays hell as a place of eternal torment and punishment for those who reject God. Oh, okay, so Matthew 25, then he will say to those who is left apart from me, you are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And the devil who deceived them was thrown Into a lake of fire where the beast and false prophet have been thrown. They will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Whoa. There's no biblical basis for Satan ruling hell.
Mark Gagdon
That's fascinating.
Dave
I did not know that.
Mark Gagdon
So it is now kind of pointed out that in the Second Temple period.
Christos
Jewish communities faced political upheaval and foreign domination.
Mark Gagdon
During this period, their theological ideas evolved to address questions about suffering and divine intervention.
Christos
Why was Yahweh allowing bad things to happen to Israel? Why were they removed from their home during this period?
Mark Gagdon
As we move forward into the Second.
Christos
Temple, we'll see how ha Satan begins, shedding his role as God's prosecutor and.
Mark Gagdon
Taking on new characteristics, those of a.
Christos
Rebellious angel who defied divine authority.
G
If you're like me, you probably read.
Mark Gagdon
A news story and you're like, this is crazy.
Christos
What is the truth about this?
G
Is this a partisan spin? Is this funded by some media company or some country? By their state sponsored media to try to warp my brain? I genuinely read news articles now with so much skepticism because I have no idea if this is from the right or the left and what the agenda is and why it's being presented in front of me. And that is why I follow and support Ground News.
Mark Gagdon
That's right.
G
So even before I started working with this company on the podcast, I've been following them on Instagram because I just thought they gave a very, very great unbiased, nonpartisan approach to media.
Mark Gagdon
It's awesome.
G
Basically, you're going to get a headline and they will show you sort of the different media splits as it comes to understanding the story. They will compare the reporting from different outlets across the political spectrum in one place to show you how the framing and word choice can affect our understanding of a story. I mean, here's a story that my mom sent me from a couple months ago. Robberies, assaults, surge in Central park, leaving New Yorkers and NYC tourists terrified. What is the purpose of this story? Who is writing it? Where is it coming from? Now I can go to Ground News, read this headline, and be able to make an assessment as to whether or not this is predominantly being reported by the right wing or by the left wing and make some type of deduction.
Mark Gagdon
Like, oh, this is actually being used.
G
You know, as some sort of political apparatus. So if you're like me, if you're a truth seeker, if you're trying to find unbiased news, I would absolutely recommend Ground News. It is completely independent, nonpartisan, subscriber funded. It allows readers to think critically about.
Mark Gagdon
The world around them.
G
And it doesn't tell them what to think, but instead lets them think for themselves. And ultimately it avoids misinformation and tries to heal polarization within our country, which.
Mark Gagdon
I think is absolutely amazing.
G
So don't let misinformation and sensationalism influence how you think. Save a massive 40% on Ground News's top tier vantage plan with my link. Ground news/gagnon J, G, N O N. Or scan my QR code right here or go to the description and click on the link. This unlocks access to all of their news analysis features.
Mark Gagdon
Something that I think is, I don't.
G
Know, super important to have. Yeah, make decisions based on facts, not spin.
Mark Gagdon
This November, check them out. Imagine this.
Unknown
You're 30ft underground, digging through frozen earth.
Christos
With spoons and mess hall plates.
Unknown
Nazi guards patrol overhead. One wrong move, one loose pebble, and it's over. But on this night in 1944, 76 Allied prisoners would attempt the impossible, tunneling their way to freedom in the largest prisoner of war escape of World War II. And centuries earlier, in a cold stone chamber, a teenage girl in armor stood before her accusers. Her crime. Leading armies, speaking to angels, and daring to challenge the most powerful men in Europe. Joan of Arc's trial would become one of history's most infamous moments. These are just two stories from Today in History, the newsletter that brings you.
Mark Gagdon
The most fascinating events from the past.
Unknown
Delivered fresh to your inbox. From epic wars to religious rebellions, ancient mysteries to modern marvels. Don't miss another piece.
Christos
Piece of history.
Unknown
Scan the QR code now or click.
Christos
The link in the description to sign.
Unknown
Up for Today in History.
Mark Gagdon
Okay, now, if we need to understand Jewish theology, we have to look at the Babylonian exile. And Babylon is in Iraq. Iraq. Look at you, Christos Remembering ship. This period wasn't just political upheaval. It was a crucible that transformed how the Jewish people understood their relationship with God, the nature of evil, and the cosmic forces at play. The exile didn't just displace a nation. It uprooted ideas and planted seeds for new ones, including the evolution of Satan from this accuser to an actual rebellious, like, you know, devil as we understand it. So the Babylonian exile begins in 586 BC when King Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon conquers Jerusalem.
Dave
Why'd you give me that phase?
Zach
You pronounce that great.
Mark Gagdon
Oh, I've just. I've heard that growing up. Nebuchadnezzar.
Zach
Gotcha.
Mark Gagdon
Yeah. He conquers Jerusalem, destroys Solomon's temple, and deported much of the Jewish population to Babylon. For the Jewish people, this was more than just a military defeat.
Christos
It was a theological crisis. The temple is gone.
Mark Gagdon
The destruction of the temple isn't just a physical loss.
Christos
It is a spiritual catastrophe.
Mark Gagdon
The temple is God's dwelling on earth.
Christos
The center of worship and sacrifice.
Mark Gagdon
And this destruction raises a lot of questions. Has God abandoned his people?
Christos
Why were they defeated by the Babylonians and their gods?
Mark Gagdon
Is any of this real? What's going on? They're also exiled from the promised land, being forced out of their homeland, the land that God gave them. According to their theology, this felt like.
Christos
A divine punishment for many Jews.
Mark Gagdon
This, you know, they struggle to reconcile their suffering with their belief in a just God and now exposure to new ideas. They're living in Babylon and, you know, they're surrounded by foreign cultures and religions, and it introduces new concepts about cosmic.
Christos
Dualism and the battle of good and evil.
Mark Gagdon
One of the biggest challenges during the exile was understanding why this devastation had occurred.
Christos
Right.
Mark Gagdon
The Jewish people believed that they were the chosen people, so why would they get conquered? So you have prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel interpret, wow, this house is cute.
H
But can I really get in the game in this economy? I do have savings and I am responsible.
Mark Gagdon
Ish.
H
I should bury it. I'm being wild. But what if I'm not being wild though? Could I actually.
Mark Gagdon
Score a kick off your home buying journey with Zillow's new buyability tool.
Unknown
It makes it easy to find out what you can afford so you can get off the bench and onto the.
Mark Gagdon
Playing field with confidence.
Unknown
Check your buyability only on Zillow.
H
Hey there, travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music. Great artist, BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live? With Priceline, you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival gig, rave, sound bath, or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline.
Unknown
Go to your happy price.
Mark Gagdon
Priceline.
Christos
Seeing the exile as punishment for Israel's sins.
Mark Gagdon
Idolatry, injustice, failure to uphold God's covenant.
Christos
And they emphasize repentance and faithfulness as.
Mark Gagdon
The path towards restoration. So there's now this shift from the Babylonian exile into individual responsibility. So the pre exile theology often focused on collective punishments. So you know, the entire nation will suffer for the sins Whereas during the exile, there was an emphasis on individual accountability, a theme that would later influence a ton of ideas about Satan and his role, you know, leading people astray and temptation.
Christos
And then the question of evil.
Mark Gagdon
This is like a fundamental theological question.
Christos
Why does evil exist?
Mark Gagdon
And obviously with the Israelites getting conquered.
Christos
This question comes up, why would God let this happen? So the exile forces the Jews to grapple with the presence of evil in the world.
Mark Gagdon
If God is all powerful, all good.
Christos
Why does he allow this suffering to occur?
Mark Gagdon
So while in Babylon, the Jews come in contact with Zoroastrianism. Like we talked about briefly at the beginning, after Cyrus the Great conquers Babylon, Zoroastrianism introduces a radically different worldview that.
Christos
Some people suggest influences Jewish thought in this time.
Mark Gagdon
So you have, you know, the Ahura Mazda, the good God, the Angra Mainu, the polar opposite, and evil God. And the cosmos is a battleground for these two forces. And this dualistic framework is, you know, different from the traditional Jewish monotheism where God holds absolute power over good and evil.
Christos
So now you're introducing this idea of an adversary that they already have that.
Mark Gagdon
Now exists as a, you know, contrary force to the monotheistic power of, you know, the singular God. It's also worth noting that Zoroastrianism features a rank of, you know, spiritual entities.
Christos
That serve both the good God and.
Mark Gagdon
The bad God, basically like a hierarchy that some people suggest influences the people's ideas about, you know, angels and demons. And so in apocalyptic literature, Zoroastrians, you know, depict end time battles between good.
Christos
And evil, a theme that becomes central to Jewish apocalyptic writing.
Mark Gagdon
You know, like Daniel and, you know, first, second and third Enoch. So where's this idea of Satan being, you know, an evil angel? Where does that, where does that come from? That's what I was always taught growing up. That's what I. That's what I thought. So by the time the second Temple period comes around, Jewish thought has this.
Christos
Dramatic transformation and there's an era of rebuilding, not just physically, but the Jewish.
Mark Gagdon
People returned from Babylon, you know, then.
Christos
They'Re exiled there to rebuild the temple.
Mark Gagdon
But also, you know, to rebuild their spiritual core. It was during this time that the.
Christos
Concept of Satan shifts from a divine.
Mark Gagdon
Prosecutor to this actual, like, you know, rebellious figure. So you have a lot of the theological questions that emerge during the period. And the Book of Enoch and many.
Christos
Of the Dead Sea Scrolls introduce the.
Mark Gagdon
Idea of this fallen angel corrupting humanity, setting the stage for Satan's evolution as a rebel. One of the most influential texts is the Book of Enoch in its first sections, known as the Book of the Watchers. I've talked about this a lot. I find this to be a fascinating old text. The text expands on a cryptic passage.
Christos
In Genesis which mentions the sons of God.
Mark Gagdon
What does that mean? The sons of God taking human women as wives and producing offspring, known as Nephilim. The Book of Enoch turns this brief mention into an elaborate narrative about angelic rebellion. Here's how it unfolds, right?
Christos
Here's the brief of it.
Mark Gagdon
If you don't know anything about the Book of Enoch, you got 200 angels. They're called Watchers. They're tasked with watching over humanity. They're led by one angel named Semjaza. They descend to Earth, violate divine law by taking human women as wives. We got the baddest woman in the universe.
Christos
Their union produces giants known as Nephilim.
Mark Gagdon
Who wreak havoc on Earth. And the Watchers also corrupt humanity by teaching forbidden knowledge such as, you know, astrology, cosmetics, you know, makeup, weapon making, all that stuff. Almost like Prometheus. You can imagine. And then the story introduces a ton of key ideas, right? So you have these people, sons of God, that are tasked with a job. They deviate from their task and then corrupt humanity. Sounds very similar to Satan, right? So while Semjaz is the leader of the rebellion in Enoch, there's another figure that appears, Azazel, who is singled out for teaching humans how to make weapons and jewelry, fueling both violence and vanity.
Christos
In Jewish tradition, Azazel becomes associated with Satan himself and is seen as his chief lieutenant.
Mark Gagdon
The Dead Sea Scrolls, which was discovered in qumran in the mid 20th century.
Christos
Also provide additional insights into the second temple period of Jewish beliefs about these fallen angels. One scroll in particular, the War scroll, describes an apocalyptic battle between the sons.
Mark Gagdon
Of light led by Michael, and the sons of darkness associated with Belial. Belial is another name for a malevolent.
Christos
Being equated with Satan in later traditions, Belial is the leader of the demons.
Mark Gagdon
And he's associated with, you know, corruption, deceit, lawlessness, qualities that align closely with Satan's emerging role. And in the Qumran community that preserved all these, you know, fragments of these, you know, Essian Jews of, you know, that. That put the Dead Sea Scrolls together. They echo themes from Enoch, including references to, you know, the angelic rebellion and things like that. In second Enoch, there's actually an interesting reference to Satan. He appears as Satanail, the leader of the fallen angels who refuses to venerate Adam, a precursor to later Christian ideas about prideful rebellion against God.
Dave
Oh, that's so interesting.
Mark Gagdon
Can you, could you look up that idea of like, where in the Bible Satan, being a fallen angel comes from because being an Enoch that he refuses to venerate Adam, like that's what I believe. But I'm like, is that even in the Bible?
Christos
And then in the Jubilees, another second.
Mark Gagdon
Temple text, Mastema, a figure equated with Satan, requests permission from God to keep.
Christos
Some demons on earth to tempt humans.
Mark Gagdon
As an example of how evil was seen as both autonomous but also divinely permitted.
Dave
Okay, so in Isaiah there's a passage that ref. That describes the fall of the king of Babylon and uses language that suggests a fall from position of power, saying how you are fallen from heaven. Oh, Lucifer, son of the morning. Whoa.
Mark Gagdon
This passage describes the fall of the.
Dave
King of Ty, who's, you know, represents Satan, having been a sheriff and being full of wisdom, who's later filled with pride, which leads to his downfall. I saw Satan fall from, fall like lightning from heaven, Jesus says in Luke 10. And then this revelation passage describes a war in heaven where Michael and his angels fight against the dragon and his angels, resulting in their defeat and expulsion from heaven. And then Matthew mentions the devil and his angels being thrown into hell, implying they were once angels.
Mark Gagdon
Interesting. Well, so it doesn't, it's not as explicit. It seems like, it seems like it's kind of pulled together.
Dave
Right.
Mark Gagdon
And Enoch doesn't seem like it's that far off. It seems like they were all saying the same thing. All right, now let's talk about Christian Satan, shall we? This is the one that I'm probably the most familiar with, growing up as a Catholic in the New Testament, it seems like Satan transforms into a full on cosmic villain that's very different and departs from a lot of the other interpretations of Satan and the other text. So one of the most iconic moments in the New Testament is Satan tempt.
Christos
Jesus in the wilderness.
Mark Gagdon
This event occurs in Matthew, Mark and Luke and occurs right after Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist.
Christos
It's a pivotal moment that showcases Satan's.
Mark Gagdon
Audacity and Jesus's unwavering commitment to God.
Christos
So Jesus, led by the Spirit, ventures.
Mark Gagdon
Into the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights of fasting. He's weakened.
Christos
And that's when Satan strikes.
Mark Gagdon
The devil approaches Jesus with three temptations.
Christos
Each more cunning than the last.
Mark Gagdon
He tempts him with bread, saying that.
Christos
He can turn the stones into bread, appealing to his hunger.
Mark Gagdon
But Jesus counters and says that man does not live on bread alone. And then the temple jump. Satan takes Jesus to the highest point of the temple in Jerusalem, daring him to throw himself down. And the angels catch him again. Jesus refuses.
Christos
And then the kingdoms of the world.
Mark Gagdon
In a bold move, Satan offers Jesus.
Christos
All the kingdoms of the world if he just bows down and worships him.
Mark Gagdon
But Jesus firmly rejects this offer, commanding Satan to leave. Wow. I mean, yeah, I've not. I need to go back and read that. It's like such a bizarre text that you have, like, these two deities, like, actually corresponding. So in it, Satan is brazen, attempting to, you know, tempt the Son of God, God himself. It reveals Satan's tactics, using physical needs, spectacle and power to tempt humans. And intriguingly, Satan's offer of all the.
Christos
Kingdoms implies that he has some authority.
Mark Gagdon
Over the kingdoms of earth. Jesus doesn't dispute the claim, suggesting that the gospel authors believe Satan has some control over earthly powers. So while the temptation narrative gives us.
Christos
A closer view of Satan's method, other.
Mark Gagdon
Parts of the New Testament provide glimpses into the origins of the fall. So Jesus makes the striking statement that we just read before that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. This brief yet dramatic line hints at the backstory where Satan's cast out of heaven. And the idea of Satan as a fallen angel again goes back to Isaiah and Ezekiel. Like we have mentioned before, you have fallen from the heavens. Morning star, son of dawn. The narrative that emerges from this text.
Christos
Is one of pride and ambition. Satan.
Mark Gagdon
You know, possibly this is again, what I heard. I thought this was just word for word in the Bible. It turns out it's more of an interpretation is the highest and the most beautiful of the angels becomes dissatisfied with his position, driven by pride, rebels against God, tries to usurp the throne, and then as a punishment, is cast out of heaven and many angels fall follow him. The cosmic drama sets the stage for.
Christos
Satan's role as God's adversary and the source of evil in the world.
Mark Gagdon
It's a powerful origin story, I, I'll give you that. I mean, that's, that's. It's kind of a banger, to be honest with you. In the Gospels, again, they show Satan as this temp, this tempter. And, you know, many of the Gospels.
Christos
Hint at this fall. And the book of Revelation shows Satan.
Mark Gagdon
In his final, most terrifying form, the great red dragon. Revelation 12 says, and another sign appears in heaven.
Christos
Behold a great red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and on his head seven crowns. His tail swept down A third of the stars of heaven and cast them to Earth.
Mark Gagdon
I mean, there's a ton of symbolism and imagery. The crown suggesting his rule over the kingdoms of Earth.
Christos
The dragons, multiple heads and horns representing power and authority.
Mark Gagdon
The tail sweeping down to take a third of the stars, perhaps as Satan's rebellion and taking the legion of angels. Revelation specifically identifies this dragon as an ancient serpent who is called the devil.
Christos
And Satan the deceiver of the whole world.
Mark Gagdon
The connection links Satan back to the serpent in the Garden of Eden, creating a narrative arc that spans from creation to end times.
Dave
Whoa. I mean, that's pretty freaky picture.
Mark Gagdon
I mean, I couldn't imagine being like just some 1200s, you know, peasant reading.
Dave
The Bible for the first time, being like, what the.
Zach
This is what awaits me if I'm a bad person.
Mark Gagdon
I mean, dude, I mean, that's crazy. Maybe it does. That's wild. The dragon imagery again draws on Old Testament traditions. You know, echoing the Leviathan, a mystical sea monster often associated with evil. By portraying Satan as this dragon, Revelation.
Christos
Emphasizes his role as the embodiment of chaos.
Mark Gagdon
In the New Testament, there's a ton of references to Satan. Here are just a few of them.
Christos
Jesus is in the wilderness, getting tempted. That's Satan, the tempter.
Mark Gagdon
John's gospel refers to Satan as the ruler of the world, kind of suggesting his influence over the earth. Paul calls Satan the God of this age who blinds the mind of unbelievers.
Christos
Jesus describes Satan as a liar and the father of lies.
Mark Gagdon
Revelation refers to Satan as the accuser of our brothers, echoing again that role in the Old Testament. And finally, New Testament authors just refer to Satan as the evil one, encapsulating.
Christos
His nature as a source of wickedness.
Mark Gagdon
Almost like Voldemort. Don't even want to say the name, you know? And the New Testament's portrayal of Satan culminates in this final vision, the revelation this apocalyptic literature presents. History is moving towards this climactic showdown. I mean, many people still believe in the Revelation. It's kind of. It's a real thing that's going to happen. I don't know. I'm like. It's just. It's too hard to even wrap your head around.
Zach
Happened in South Park.
Mark Gagdon
What happens?
Zach
Satan rises, comes back.
Dave
Yeah, and.
Mark Gagdon
And then what?
Zach
And he has to fight with Jesus in a boxing match.
Mark Gagdon
Did Jesus win?
Zach
I don't want to spoil it for anyone out there. The movie is 15 years old, but.
Christos
What movie is this?
Zach
Bigger, longer and uncut. South Park.
Dave
I might need a classic I might.
Mark Gagdon
Need to watch that, maybe do an episode on that.
Zach
Yeah.
Christos
So throughout the book of Revelation, obviously.
Mark Gagdon
You see Satan and, you know, good God, the spirit that controls heaven, as having this huge battle.
Christos
Right.
Mark Gagdon
You know, Satan is gathering his forces against God and his people. And then there's this battle called Armageddon and Satan, his followers are defeated and face a final judgment. Just kind of, you know, that's how the Bible ends. Pretty good story. The New Testament's portrayal of Satan, Satan.
Christos
As a fallen angel, this rebel and.
Mark Gagdon
This adversary of God has a profound impact on Christian theology and then obviously Western culture and as you can imagine.
Christos
Influences a lot of the art and.
Mark Gagdon
Literature that comes out of medieval Europe, which is kind of where we get.
Christos
This idea of Satan with horns, hooves.
Mark Gagdon
And the ruler of hell. So in the Middle Ages you have this dramatic transformation in how Satan is portrayed, both Christian theology and art. And the earliest known depiction of Satan.
Christos
Comes from the 6th century mosaic in.
Mark Gagdon
The Basilica of Scent Apollonier in Ravenna, Italy. Can you pull that up?
Dave
That's.
Mark Gagdon
It'd be interesting to see. The image shows Satan as this ethereal blue angel, far from red skinned, horned, or with hooves.
Dave
Wow.
Christos
So this angelic portrayal was abandoned in favor of a more demonic appearance.
Dave
I'd be curious to see what this.
Mark Gagdon
Looks like because I'm not even sure. How do we know if it's the devil? Like, is there devilish things about him? I mean, I'm sure someone did the research and figured out what the, what the, you know, basilica was pointing at. So as you move into the late medieval period, Satan's image becomes more beastly. You could say dragons were a common representation symbolizing, you know, evil. And, and for instance, there's even a.
Christos
Legend about Pope St. Sylvester slaying a.
Mark Gagdon
Dragon, which impressed a group of pagan.
Christos
Priests and confirmed the Christian faith of the Roman Emperor Constantine.
Dave
Is this, this is the one in the basilica where Satan. That's the. Is. Is right there on the right.
Zach
I would assume it's this one.
Dave
No, it's a blue angel.
Zach
Oh, maybe it's this one though.
Dave
Whoa. Maybe the blue angels. Whoa. The blue angels are Satanic.
Zach
Who are the blue angels?
Dave
The, the pilots.
Zach
Oh. Oh, yeah, that's right.
Dave
Whoa. So that's the, the blue angel right there. That's the one. That's. Can you click on this? The earliest depiction of Lucifer can be traced to a mosaic in this basilica which shows two angels, a red angel of sheep and a blue angel of goats with Jesus in between. Here. The blue angel seems to Be Lucifer uncharacteristically portrayed.
Mark Gagdon
Wow, that's fascinating.
Christos
So as you move into this late.
Mark Gagdon
Medieval period, you have all these dragons. But it wasn't just the mythical creatures.
Christos
That influenced Satan's image.
Mark Gagdon
Real animals play a significant role. Many medieval portrayals show him having cloven.
Christos
Hooves, tails, talons, and even webbed hands. 14th century French manuscripts known as the Smithfield Decretals showed the devil with various.
Mark Gagdon
Animal parts, depicting him as a monstrous beast. Bears, lions and foxes were amongst the animals once attributed to Satan. One of the most significant influences on Satan's medieval image was the Greek God Pan. With goat legs, horns, associated with wild nature and carnal desires, Pan provided a.
Christos
Ready made template for Christian artists and theologians to adapt.
Dave
Wow.
Mark Gagdon
So it's really just Pan. Can you search the Greek God Pan and get an image of that? That'd be interesting.
Dave
Oh, wow. So that's how we understand the devil. Well, yeah, look at that. Yeah, it's basically just a. He's got horns, he's got hooves, got a six pack. Got a six pack. I mean.
Mark Gagdon
Yeah, that's, that's the devil.
Christos
That's interesting.
Dave
And what was Pan, the God of goats?
Mark Gagdon
I think just a God of ghosts. I mean, did he do any evil stuff?
Christos
How did he get wrapped up with being Satan?
Zach
It's the God of wild shepherds, flocks and rustic music.
Christos
Wow.
Dave
Often restricted, depicted as a seder, he's associated with nature and forests. He was create, had the lower body of a goat. The word panic is believed to have originated from Pan's name, as he was known to inspire fear in those who encountered him. Whoa. Oh, this is so interesting.
Mark Gagdon
I'm, I'm, I'm curious why they just chose that.
Christos
So the church incorporated local pagan beliefs.
Mark Gagdon
And imagery into his teachings as a way to make Christianity more accessible. So in Satan's case, this resulted in a figure that combined the fallen angel.
Christos
Of Christian tradition and with the wild.
Mark Gagdon
Animalistic aspects of pagan culture. So as Satan's physical appearance evolves, so does this idea about his domain. The concept of hell as a place of eternal fire and torment becomes firmly established.
Christos
During the period.
Mark Gagdon
This wasn't just a theological concept. It was vividly depicted in art and literature. So then we have Dante Alighieri, Divine Comedy, known as, you know, with a specific section known as, you know, Dante's Inferno. The Inferno section marks a significant point.
Christos
In understanding Satan's portrayal.
Mark Gagdon
So unlike the fiery ruler of hell often depicted in popular imagination, Dante, Satan is a figure trapped in ice at.
Christos
The center of hell.
Mark Gagdon
In this 14th century work, Satan appears.
Christos
As a monstrous giant with three faces, each a different color. Red, yellow, black.
Mark Gagdon
He has six bat like wings.
Christos
As he beats them, he creates icy.
Mark Gagdon
Winds that keep him and other sinners frozen in place. I gotta read Dante's Inferno. That shit is fire. The imagery combines both animalistic and human elements, reflecting Satan's fall from grace. Dante. Satan also doesn't speak.
Christos
He only weeps and chews on history's.
Mark Gagdon
Greatest traitors in his three mouths. Judas, Brutus and Cassius. This silent weeping devil is a very different from the smooth talking tempter of earlier traditions. Instead of ruling Hell, he's its prisoner, powerless against God's judgment. That's possibly one of the most significant.
Christos
Developments in Satan's medieval portrayals, his elevation.
Mark Gagdon
To the status of hell ruler. This idea isn't found in the Bible. It's widely accepted though, during this period.
Christos
Interestingly, the concept of Satan ruling Hell.
Mark Gagdon
Seems to have originated in Dante's Divine Comedy.
Christos
Before this, Satan was generally seen as.
Mark Gagdon
A prisoner of hell, not its master.
Christos
I see.
Mark Gagdon
So in Dante's Inferno, despite him being a prisoner of hell, the medieval mind grappled and sort of attached itself to this idea that he was ruling Hell.
Zach
Right.
Mark Gagdon
And that that is where Satan lives. He runs the show from hell. And despite if you actually read it, yo, he's actually just a prisoner. But people still are just like, nah, he's running that shit. Right, Interesting.
Zach
And from what I know about the book, the, the seventh Circle of Hell, the last one is reserved for those three people you mentioned, Judas, Brutus and Cassius. Cassius. So wouldn't the devil be there if he was the prisoner?
Dave
Yeah, I guess so. They're probably looking at it being like.
Mark Gagdon
Yeah, oh, he's in charge of something.
Zach
If you're the ultimate prisoner, you got to be in the last circle.
Mark Gagdon
And then, not to mention he's chewing on them.
Zach
Right?
Mark Gagdon
So it's like it seems like he has some dominion over these people that are banished to hell.
Zach
Right.
Mark Gagdon
It is funny that they put Judas and just a guy that killed Julius Caesar, you know, I mean like, like.
Christos
One of them killed the savior of.
Mark Gagdon
The universe, the other one just killed like a Roman politician.
Zach
Right. And who's Cassius?
Dave
I don't even know.
Mark Gagdon
Another Roman politician. Ask him. Figure out what Cassius did. I don't even know what that's all about. So many theologians continue to see Satan as a prisoner, not its ruler.
Christos
But tensions between these two views continue into later periods and still exist in some forms today.
Mark Gagdon
So for mediev Christians yet, the devil wasn't just a distant theological concept. It was a real present day danger. They believed in demonic possession and exorcisms and they were practiced commonly, not just by Christians, but also Jews and pagans. Did you find it? Yep.
Dave
What did Cassius do?
Zach
He also.
Mark Gagdon
Oh, he was a.
Christos
He was a collaborator with Brutus.
Zach
Right.
Dave
To kill Caesar. Right. Oh, I knew that, but I just.
Mark Gagdon
Kind of reserved myself.
Zach
I feel like, who the hell is Julius Caesar for his killers.
Mark Gagdon
Both of them.
H
Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, try Greenlight risk free today@greenlight.com Spotify.
Mark Gagdon
Like, what about the Romans that killed, you know, or Pontius Pilate that sentenced Christ to death? Yeah, I mean, that's crazy that Julius Caesar was given that much reverence.
Zach
Or the dude that speared Jesus on the cross.
Dave
That's what I'm saying.
Mark Gagdon
Wild that they're just like, all right, one of Jesus killers, two of Julius Caesar's. Come on, Dante. I mean, that's just how much these guys love Rome, you know what I mean?
Zach
Oh, that's a good point.
Mark Gagdon
Yeah, Dante.
Christos
You think Dante's easy, but yo, he killed Caesar.
Dave
You're not gonna let that.
Mark Gagdon
Come on.
Dave
The last circle of hell, you go, yeah, it's crazy.
Mark Gagdon
So the fear of demonic influence led to a lot of dark chapters in history. Some could say 1430s, the Catholic Church begins to view witchcraft as a part of a vast conspiracy by Satan himself. And this later goes into, you know, witch trials and things like that. So Satan wasn't always portrayed as this terrifying figure in medieval culture. In some medieval mystery plays, he appears.
Christos
As a comedic character.
Mark Gagdon
Those portrayals show Satan as this foolish figure who's frolicking around clumsily and even.
Christos
Farting in the background.
Mark Gagdon
The comedic Satan was more pathetic than terrifying, reflecting this belief that the devil was powerless against God's plan. In the Golden Legend, a collection of saints lives compiled around 1260, it contains numerous stories of encounters between saints and Satan. In these tales, Satan is outwitted by the saints cleverness and God's power. These stories serve not only to entertain, but also to reassure believers that faith.
Christos
Overcomes the devil's schemes.
Mark Gagdon
The medieval period reimagining Satan has a lasting impact that extends far beyond even the Middle ages. This idea of this red skinned horned devil with hooves and a pitchfork becomes so ingrained in western culture that it's still the default representation of Satan and everything from Halloween costumes to cartoons to, you know, south park and Tenacious D.
Christos
So the idea of Satan as a.
Mark Gagdon
Ruler of hell with, you know, while it's not biblically accurate, becomes this part of biblical or popular theology. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm, I'm curious how it like, you know, merges into pop culture more, but this idea that all these girls that dress up as like a slutty Satan are really just dressing up like Pan.
Dave
Right.
Mark Gagdon
It's very funny to me.
Zach
You know what we haven't touched on? How do we get to the devil taking over people's bodies?
Mark Gagdon
Oh, like exorcism stuff? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's in the Bible a little bit.
Zach
Oh, is it?
Mark Gagdon
There's a few references, if I'm not mistaken. There's, I think there's actually only one reference, as a matter of fact, that I think it's Christ that does an exorcism and casts evil spirits into a pig and then sends the pig off to fly off a mountain and it dies running off a cliff. Can you search that exorcism pig, Bible?
Dave
Yeah. In the New Testament, Jesus is a powerful exorcist demonstrating his authority over demonic forces. I forget exactly where, but the demons beg Jesus not to send them away, but instead to send them into pigs or a nearby hillside, which he does. The herd, about 2,000 in number, rush down the steep bank into the sea and drown. Jesus asked for the name of the demon and his sentence. They say, I am legion, for we are many. Creepy as hell, but yeah.
Mark Gagdon
So Satan's journey goes from this medieval period into more, you know, pop cultural references. So John Milton writes this book called paradise lost in the 1600s, and it.
Christos
Is considered the definitive literary portrayal of Satan.
Mark Gagdon
The poem recounts Satan's fall from heaven, his rebellion against God, his role in corrupting humanity through Adam and Eve.
Christos
And what makes Milton Satan so captivating is the complexity. He's not just a villain, he's an.
Mark Gagdon
Anti hero whose pride and ambition lead to his downfall. From the very beginning, Satan dominates the narrative.
Christos
He opens the poem as this defiant.
Mark Gagdon
Figure rallying his fallen angels in hell with one of literature's most famous lines.
Christos
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.
Mark Gagdon
I could have Read Paradise Lost. That's fire. This declaration encapsulates the immense pride and refusal to submit to God. Milton portrays Satan as this master orator, capable of stirring loyalty amongst his followers despite the damnation forever. Satan is depicted as giving speeches to.
Christos
Rally the demons to prepare them for these cosmic battles.
Mark Gagdon
He inspires the fallen angels to continue their rebellion by framing their defeat as temporary.
Dave
It's like, hey, we're just working through some stuff.
Mark Gagdon
We're gonna get back to heaven, don't even worry. And while the pandemonium, which is hell's grand capital, built by the demons, Satan declares that they can make Hell their.
Christos
Own kingdom, a place where they can.
Mark Gagdon
Still exercise free will. Yet beneath this lies this conflicted character. Milton gives a glimpse of Satan's turmoil in book four. As Satan enters Eden and sees Adam.
Christos
And Eve for the first time, he.
Mark Gagdon
Experiences a moment of regret and longing for God's grace.
Christos
Is there no place left for repentance?
Mark Gagdon
None for pardon left? The moment humanizes him, showing that even.
Christos
The ultimate rebel feels the weight of his choices. John Milton also uses Satan to explore themes of free will and agency.
Mark Gagdon
Unlike Adam and Eve, who succumbed to temptation but later seek forgiveness, Satan chooses rebellion, knowing its consequences. This line of, you know, the mind.
Christos
Is its own place and in itself.
Mark Gagdon
Can make a heavenly of hell, a.
Christos
Hell of heaven reflects the idea of.
Mark Gagdon
Self determinism, that you know, you can make reality whatever you want it to be, despite the, you know, threat of eternal suffering. Critics have debated whether Milton intended for.
Christos
Readers to sympathize with Satan.
Mark Gagdon
Romantic poets like William Blake and Percy.
Christos
Shelley admired Satan as a heroic figure who defied tyranny.
Mark Gagdon
Blake famously remarked that Milton was of the Devil's party without knowing it.
Christos
However, Christian scholars like C.S. lewis argue that Milton never meant to glorify Satan, but rather show how seduct.
Mark Gagdon
Reductive evil can be.
Christos
By the end of Paradise Lost, Satan's.
Mark Gagdon
Character deteriorates both physically and morally.
Christos
He begins as an imposing figure, but.
Mark Gagdon
Gradually transforms into, you know, lesser forms, a toad, a cherub, and then finally a serpent. After corrupting Adam and Eve, his speeches lose their grandeur and he becomes consumed by self deception. Milton's portrayal of Satan remains one of literature's most enduring depictions because it captures both the allure but also the downfall. He's a being who embodies humanity's greatest flaws, pride, ambition and inability to reconcile with failure. While Paradise Lost elevated Satan to produce, you know, literary prominence, later works continued to explore his character in new ways. Writers like Gauthier who wrote Faust and this idea of the Faustian bargain. Lord Byron, who wrote Cain, portrayed him.
Christos
As a cunning tempter or a philosophical figure questioning divine justice.
Mark Gagdon
But it wasn't just literature that kept Satan relevant. There's, you know, a lot of pop.
Christos
Culture around this time that brings Satan.
Mark Gagdon
Into a new light. You know, there's shows, you know, literally like Lucifer, Al Pacino creates the devil's advocate, you know, this charismatic lawyer and you know, humorous portrayals in Constantine, you know, obviously Tenacious D, the legends shout out to them. South Park. These portrayals often lean into irony to subvert expectations by making Satan relatable or even likable. So from John Milton's depiction of Satan brings us into the modern day where you have, you know, generations of, you know, the 70s and the 80s being.
Christos
Known as the Satanic panic, where you.
Mark Gagdon
Know, you have this large Christian population in the United States that are terrified of, you know, Satanists, like corrupting their children, which I mean, could happen, I guess. Like I've talked to some people that apparently, you know, Bob Hamer, apparently or no, is Mike Cadella that apparently saw some Satanists in a, in a mansion somewhere in New York. I don't know. But the Satanic panic doesn't come out of nowhere. It's the culmination of, you know, centuries of fear and fascination with the devil and witch trials and you know, all this kind of like, it's almost like neopaganism where people are looking for good and evil and you know, afraid of this, you know, ever looming fear. So the roots of the Satanic panic can be traced back to the 80s with publications of a book called Michelle Remembers. Written by this Canadian psychiatrist, Lawrence Pazder.
Christos
And his patient, who later becomes his.
Mark Gagdon
Wife, suspect Michelle Smith. The book claims to uncover repressed memories of satanic ritual abuse that Smith had.
Christos
Experienced as a child.
Mark Gagdon
Michelle Remembers became a bestseller, smash hit. And despite its dubious claims and you know, some people disputing the corroborating evidence, it tapped into a growing anxiety about child abuse in America. I don't know, I've never heard of this book. Michelle Remembers. It's interesting that that's kind of what kicks off the entire thing.
Dave
Yeah, interesting. Oh wow. I mean, crazy cover. I mean that's wild. A year long contest between innocence and evil. Oh, I'm absolutely gonna read this. But apparently it's disputed, I guess.
Mark Gagdon
Can you google like, like, you know.
Dave
Truth, like see if there's like any.
Mark Gagdon
Any consensus on the, the veracity of this. So by the 80s there was an increasing awareness that child abuse, specifically sexual abuse, was more prevalent than previously thought. And this realization coincided with societal change that were putting, you know, stress on traditional family structures. More women were entering the workforce, which meant more children were in daycare. And this is what one historian calls a powdered keg of anxieties combining fear.
Christos
Of abuse and discomfort of entrusting children to strangers.
Mark Gagdon
Oh, that's interesting. So by if women are now working.
Christos
More and more and they're taking less care of their children, they're more generally anxious.
Mark Gagdon
And then they hear these stories of like, the most evil thing ever, like Satan is taking your kids. And that is going to create, you know, this cultural fear around Satanism by.
Zach
Not watching your own kids.
Mark Gagdon
Just the idea that your kid is at some daycare all day and you're at work and then you see something on the news, it's like, our Satan is coming for your kids. It's like the ultimate fear, right? And so it just like, grips the entire American psyche for a specific generation. That's interesting. So the spark that ignites the powder keg comes in 1983 in Manhattan Beach, a parent accused an employee of McMartin.
Christos
Preschool of abusing their child. And what follows was a snowball effect of allegations and investigations that become the longest, most expensive criminal trial in American history. Local police send letters to 200 families.
Mark Gagdon
Whose children attended or had attended McMartin, asking them questions, you know, about their kids and this potential abuse. They brought in therapists to interview the children, often leading using leading questions. These interviews unearth wild claims of animal sacrifices, levitating employees, and secret tunnels beneath the daycare. Despite the lack of physical evidence, the.
Christos
Allegations spread like wildfire.
Mark Gagdon
Soon, similar cases pop up all over the country. The media latches onto the stories, and.
Christos
Now there's a full on public hysteria.
Mark Gagdon
1985, Geraldo Rivera claimed on national television.
Christos
That There were over 1 million Satanists.
Mark Gagdon
In the United States in a highly organized secretive network. As the panic spreads, it takes on.
Christos
A life of its own. Therapists begin uncovering repressed memories of satanic ritual abuse in their patients.
Mark Gagdon
Police departments across the country start training officers to recognize signs of ritual abuse. Even the FBI gets involved. And they would later conclude there was.
Christos
No evidence of widespread satanic conspiracy.
Mark Gagdon
Of course they would, dude. Feds, right? The allegation becomes crazier. Some claimed that Satanists were infiltrating all levels of society, from daycare workers to politicians. There were stories of human sacrifice, cannibalism, breeding programs. One psychiatrist wrote in a medical journal that there was a hidden holocaust. The panic wasn't linked to the United States only similar waves happen in the uk, Australia, New Zealand, and becomes a global phenomenon. While a satanic panic is unfolding in real life, Hollywood is churning out movies.
Christos
That reflect and fuels the fears.
Mark Gagdon
So they come out with the Exorcist and the omen. But the 80s, it takes it to a new level.
Christos
Angel Heart, Devil's advocate, portrays Satan as.
Mark Gagdon
This manipulator who's able to blend seamlessly into human society.
Christos
So by the mid-1990s, the satanic panic.
Mark Gagdon
Largely subsides and investigations fail to turn up, you know, evidence of widespread satanic abuse. And, you know, this McMartin case becomes one of the most high profile cases ever to end in an acquittal or drop charges.
Christos
Wow. The recovered memory therapist who fueled many.
Mark Gagdon
Many allegations was discredited. But the impact of the satanic panic lingers. No longer just a religious concept, Satan is a real boogeyman in the cultural.
Christos
Imagination coming to get your children. And in the wake of the Satanic.
Mark Gagdon
Panic, depictions of Satan in pop culture take on a new look. Some embrace the over the top nature of the panic, turning Satan into this almost like, campy figure that you see in South Park. Some take a more nuanced approach, like you see in Lucifer. Satan owns a nightclub that helps, you know, solve crimes. This portrayal taps into the long standing tradition of Satan as this complex character. That is fascinating. I never really knew anything about this satanic panic McMartin case.
Christos
I had heard of it, but I.
Mark Gagdon
Never actually looked into it. So at the same time, some groups.
Christos
Reclaimed satanic imagery as a form of political protest.
Mark Gagdon
For example, the Satanic temple uses Satan.
Christos
As a symbol for rebellion against religious authoritarianism.
Dave
Have you ever seen this?
Mark Gagdon
This is interesting, like, where people, and specifically like conservative, more religious states will like kind of blur the lines between church and state. So like, they'll have like a big Bible in front of like the, you know, capitol building in their local state. The Satanic temple will say, hey, if.
Christos
You'Re going to have a Christian statue.
Mark Gagdon
In front of the capitol building, we want a satanic statue as well. And so they're not actually Satanists. They just antagonize Christians by pretending to be Satanists.
Zach
Okay.
Mark Gagdon
And so then they just put up like, you know, Satan statues at the capitol building.
Christos
Like if you search it, like, you.
Mark Gagdon
Know, Satan statue or like Baphomet, like capitol building, you'll see like pictures of, you know, this satanic figure, like popping up. It's kind of funny, to be honest with you. But if it is separation church of state, you kind of got to respect the game, right? That's how I feel.
Zach
I mean.
Dave
I mean, it's hilarious.
Mark Gagdon
Like, if they're actual sadness, that's.
Dave
I don't, I don't vibe with that.
Christos
If they're just trying to provoke, then.
Mark Gagdon
You almost have to, like, respect it. You're like, oh, that's actually kind of funny. So there you have it. I guess that is the origin of Satan. Starts off in Persia, moves its way over to, you know, Mesopotamia, moves its way all the way up to, you know, the Canaanites, and then gets its way into Judeo Christian values. And you have, you know, the Jewish version of.
Christos
Of Satan that exists in the Torah.
Mark Gagdon
And the Jewish Bible and then moves all the way up to Christianity where you have like this adversary.
Christos
Then in Revelation, there's a war between.
Mark Gagdon
The good guy and the bad guy.
Christos
You have this fallen angel that comes.
Mark Gagdon
Through in Dante's Inferno and you see this guy as like the ruler of hell. You get a depiction of him that comes from, you know, Greek mythology, becomes Pan and becomes like this almost like, you know, Tumnus looking. And then you have John Milton's Paradise Lost, which then depicts kind of the whole story in like a very beautiful, well written allegory that then everyone can attach themselves to. And then that brings us into the modern day where you have, you know.
Christos
Satanic fear that then takes it out of this theological little vessel and into.
Mark Gagdon
Just the homes and, you know, hearts of all American people that are now terrified of Satan.
Zach
Also, you've heard, like using it as kind of a term of endearment.
Mark Gagdon
Kind of.
Dave
What do you mean?
Zach
Oh, you devil.
Christos
I have.
Zach
Yeah.
Mark Gagdon
But I imagine that's probably just like. Like you're a troublemaker or a flirt. Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah, you're trouble, right?
Christos
Like you're flirting me.
Mark Gagdon
Like you're like a little. Yeah, you're a little cheeky flirt, you know.
Zach
Right.
Mark Gagdon
And because you're so trouble, you're the devil. Not only your trouble, you're. You're evil incarnate. Right, but who says that? Has someone said that to you?
Zach
Not to me.
Christos
What old girls are you taking?
Mark Gagdon
Actors.
Zach
That is the vibe of girls.
Mark Gagdon
Henrietta. 90 year old woman. Are you taking down Bea Arthur stuff like that? Yeah, what the hell. Yeah, you devil. You've been watching I Love Lucy. Yeah, you gotta stop watching that, bro.
Zach
Trying to talk like laundromat kind of chicks.
Mark Gagdon
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, but there you have it. That's the devil. Stay away from him. Know your enemy. And thank you guys so much for. For listening. I appreciate it. I'm curious what you guys think of the devil. Has he always been here? Or is it maybe some type of complex literary metaphor that's been assembled over time across cultures and across religions? Maybe we'll never know.
Christos
Hopefully we don't.
Mark Gagdon
Or actually, maybe we do. Hopefully we go to heaven. Then we can all figure it out.
Zach
Well, you wouldn't know if you're in heaven.
Mark Gagdon
If you're in heaven, I'm sure you can ask, like, yeah, what was up with that whole Satan thing?
Zach
And they send you right down there for asking.
Christos
No.
Mark Gagdon
You think that's how.
Zach
I'm not messing with that.
Mark Gagdon
No. I mean, I would ask, and then God is just like, what?
Zach
Hey, don't talk about that.
Mark Gagdon
He'd be like, who is that? I'm like, satan. And the Bible's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, no, that was the whole thing. If I wasn't good, I'd go to hell. He's like, what's hell? Like, wait, you're saying everyone's here?
Dave
He's like, yeah.
Mark Gagdon
And he turns around, Hitler's behind him.
Dave
I'm like, what the.
Mark Gagdon
That would blow my whole mind. But anyway, thank you guys so much for tuning in to religion camp. Appreciate you guys for being here. Check out campgoods.co. check out the Mark Agnon for tickets.
Dave
And peace be with you.
Mark Gagdon
If you've made it to the end.
Unknown
Of this episode, you are clearly someone who understands that beneath every historical event.
Mark Gagdon
Lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered.
Unknown
You're the type of person who knows that real history is more fascinating than any fiction, and we deeply appreciate that about you. I'll be honest, that's exactly why I personally invite you to sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter that goes beyond the surface of historical events. We dive into the stories that textbooks never told you, the secrets that challenge the course of nations, and the forgotten.
Mark Gagdon
Tales that deserve to be remembered.
Unknown
Let's continue this journey of discovery together. Take the conversation from your headphones into your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History. Because every day holds a secret waiting to be revealed. Thank you for being part of our historical journey.
Mark Gagdon
We'll see you next time.
Podcast Summary: Camp Gagnon – Episode: "Satan: Breaking Down The Origin of Lucifer"
Release Date: April 6, 2025
In this episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon, alongside his co-hosts Christos, Zach, and Dave, delves deep into the enigmatic origins and evolving portrayals of Satan throughout history. The discussion transcends religious texts, cultural interpretations, and literary representations to provide a comprehensive understanding of how Satan has been perceived from ancient civilizations to modern pop culture.
Zoroastrianism: The Dualistic Progenitor Mark initiates the conversation by exploring Zoroastrianism, one of the world's oldest continuously practiced religions. He explains the fundamental dualism in Zoroastrian belief, where Ahura Mazda represents all that is good, and Angra Mainyu embodies evil.
Mark Gagnon [09:00]: "Ahura Mazda is the wise Lord and represents everything that's good... Angra Mainyu, whose name literally means destructive spirit, is responsible for death, disease, and all suffering."
This dualistic framework laid the groundwork for later Judeo-Christian concepts of good versus evil.
Canaanite Influence: The Complex Figure of Reshef Moving to the Canaanite pantheon, Christos introduces Reshef, a deity associated with plague, war, fertility, and well-being. Mark highlights Reshef's widespread worship across the Near East and his multifaceted role, which later influenced the portrayal of Satan as both a destructive and a necessary force.
Mark Gagnon [12:06]: "Reshef wasn't only a war God. In some contexts, he was associated with fertility and well-being, showcasing the dual nature of these deities."
Mesopotamian Beliefs: Demons and Cosmic Struggles Discussing Mesopotamian mythology, the hosts note that demons were not purely evil but served various roles within the divine hierarchy. These early concepts of adversarial spirits contributed to the later image of Satan as an opposing force.
Mark Gagnon [17:10]: "In Mesopotamian thought, demons weren't necessarily embodiments of pure evil... These early prototypes influenced the Jewish and Christian understandings of Satan."
Babylonian Exile: A Theological Transformation The Babylonian Exile was a pivotal moment for Jewish theology. Mark explains how exposure to Zoroastrianism introduced ideas of cosmic dualism to the Jewish people, leading to a transformation in the understanding of good and evil.
Mark Gagnon [36:07]: "The exile forced the Jews to grapple with the presence of evil in the world... This period introduced the dualistic framework influencing later Jewish thought."
Evolution Through Texts: From Accuser to Rebel During the Second Temple period, Jewish texts like the Book of Enoch began portraying Satan as a rebellious fallen angel, diverging from his earlier role as merely an accuser or tester within God's divine council.
Christos [38:14]: "In the Book of Enoch, Azazel becomes associated with Satan himself, acting as his chief lieutenant."
New Testament Portrayals: The Tempter and Adversary Mark outlines Satan's role in the New Testament, where he is depicted as the tempter of Jesus in the wilderness and as an adversary influencing the world.
Christos [43:15]: "Jesus, led by the Spirit, ventures into the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights of fasting. That's when Satan strikes."
Mark Gagnon [47:22]: "John's gospel refers to Satan as the ruler of the world, suggesting his influence over the earth."
Apocalyptic Literature: Revelations and Eternal Battles In the Book of Revelation, Satan is portrayed as the ultimate antagonist, leading a final battle against God, which culminates in his defeat and eternal punishment.
Mark Gagnon [46:19]: "Revelation refers to Satan as the accuser of our brothers, echoing his role in the Old Testament."
Artistic Evolution: From Ethereal to Monstrous During the Medieval period, Satan's image underwent significant transformation. Initially depicted as an angelic being in mosaics like the one in Ravenna, Italy ([49:34]), his portrayal shifted to a more beastly figure influenced by pagan deities such as the Greek God Pan.
Mark Gagnon [51:34]: "The Greek God Pan, with his goat legs and horns, provided a ready-made template for Christian artists to adapt Satan's image."
Literary Influence: Dante's Inferno Mark discusses Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy, specifically Inferno, where Satan is depicted as a giant trapped in ice, chewing on traitors, contrasting the later image of him as the ruler of hell.
Christos [53:35]: "In Dante's Inferno, Satan is a figure trapped in ice at the center of hell, chewing on history's greatest traitors."
John Milton's Paradise Lost: The Complex Rebel Mark elaborates on John Milton's Paradise Lost, which portrays Satan as a charismatic and tragic anti-hero. This depiction emphasizes his pride and ambition, making him a multifaceted character rather than a one-dimensional villain.
Christos [61:09]: "Milton portrays Satan as giving speeches to rally the fallen angels, inspiring them to continue their rebellion by framing their defeat as temporary."
Influence on Later Literature The portrayal of Satan in literature continued to evolve, influencing works like Faust and Cain, where he is depicted as a cunning tempter and a philosophical adversary challenging divine justice.
Mark Gagnon [63:11]: "Christian scholars like C.S. Lewis argue that Milton never meant to glorify Satan but to show how seductive evil can be."
Satan in Media: From Villain to Relatable Figure In contemporary media, Satan's image oscillates between the traditional villain and more nuanced, relatable characters. Shows like Lucifer and South Park depict him with varying degrees of complexity and humor.
Mark Gagnon [64:25]: "Portrayals often lean into irony to subvert expectations by making Satan relatable or even likable."
The Satanic Panic: Societal Fear and Misinformation The hosts discuss the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, a period marked by widespread fear of satanic ritual abuse, spurred by dubious media reports and psychological theories.
Christos [65:07]: "The Satanic Panic doesn't come out of nowhere. It's the culmination of centuries of fear and fascination with the devil and witch trials."
Mark Gagnon [67:31]: "By the mid-1990s, the satanic panic largely subsided, but the impact lingered, embedding Satan firmly in the cultural imagination as a real and present danger."
Reclamation and Modern Symbolism Groups like The Satanic Temple have reclaimed satanic imagery as symbols of rebellion against religious authoritarianism, blending ancient symbols with modern political activism.
Mark Gagnon [71:03]: "The Satanic Temple uses Satan as a symbol for rebellion against religious authoritarianism, challenging traditional perceptions."
Throughout the episode, Camp Gagnon provides a thorough exploration of Satan's transformation from ancient adversarial spirits to a complex figure entrenched in modern culture. By tracing his origins through Zoroastrianism, Jewish theology, Christian doctrine, medieval art, and contemporary media, the hosts offer listeners a nuanced perspective on one of humanity's most enduring and multifaceted symbols of evil.
Mark Gagnon [74:30]: "So the origin of Satan starts off in Persia, moves through Mesopotamia and the Canaanites, and then integrates into Judeo-Christian values, evolving into the figure we recognize today."
This comprehensive discussion not only demystifies the historical and theological underpinnings of Satan but also highlights his pervasive influence across various facets of human civilization and imagination.
Notable Quotes:
Note: This summary excludes advertisements and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions about the origins and representations of Satan.