Satan: Breaking Down The Origin of Lucifer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Camp Gagnon – Episode: "Satan: Breaking Down The Origin of Lucifer"

Release Date: April 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon, alongside his co-hosts Christos, Zach, and Dave, delves deep into the enigmatic origins and evolving portrayals of Satan throughout history. The discussion transcends religious texts, cultural interpretations, and literary representations to provide a comprehensive understanding of how Satan has been perceived from ancient civilizations to modern pop culture.

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Ancient Origins of Satan

Zoroastrianism: The Dualistic Progenitor Mark initiates the conversation by exploring Zoroastrianism, one of the world's oldest continuously practiced religions. He explains the fundamental dualism in Zoroastrian belief, where Ahura Mazda represents all that is good, and Angra Mainyu embodies evil.

Mark Gagnon [09:00]: "Ahura Mazda is the wise Lord and represents everything that's good... Angra Mainyu, whose name literally means destructive spirit, is responsible for death, disease, and all suffering."

This dualistic framework laid the groundwork for later Judeo-Christian concepts of good versus evil.

Canaanite Influence: The Complex Figure of Reshef Moving to the Canaanite pantheon, Christos introduces Reshef, a deity associated with plague, war, fertility, and well-being. Mark highlights Reshef's widespread worship across the Near East and his multifaceted role, which later influenced the portrayal of Satan as both a destructive and a necessary force.

Mark Gagnon [12:06]: "Reshef wasn't only a war God. In some contexts, he was associated with fertility and well-being, showcasing the dual nature of these deities."

Mesopotamian Beliefs: Demons and Cosmic Struggles Discussing Mesopotamian mythology, the hosts note that demons were not purely evil but served various roles within the divine hierarchy. These early concepts of adversarial spirits contributed to the later image of Satan as an opposing force.

Mark Gagnon [17:10]: "In Mesopotamian thought, demons weren't necessarily embodiments of pure evil... These early prototypes influenced the Jewish and Christian understandings of Satan."

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Satan in Jewish Theology

Babylonian Exile: A Theological Transformation The Babylonian Exile was a pivotal moment for Jewish theology. Mark explains how exposure to Zoroastrianism introduced ideas of cosmic dualism to the Jewish people, leading to a transformation in the understanding of good and evil.

Mark Gagnon [36:07]: "The exile forced the Jews to grapple with the presence of evil in the world... This period introduced the dualistic framework influencing later Jewish thought."

Evolution Through Texts: From Accuser to Rebel During the Second Temple period, Jewish texts like the Book of Enoch began portraying Satan as a rebellious fallen angel, diverging from his earlier role as merely an accuser or tester within God's divine council.

Christos [38:14]: "In the Book of Enoch, Azazel becomes associated with Satan himself, acting as his chief lieutenant."

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Satan in Christian Theology

New Testament Portrayals: The Tempter and Adversary Mark outlines Satan's role in the New Testament, where he is depicted as the tempter of Jesus in the wilderness and as an adversary influencing the world.

Christos [43:15]: "Jesus, led by the Spirit, ventures into the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights of fasting. That's when Satan strikes."

Mark Gagnon [47:22]: "John's gospel refers to Satan as the ruler of the world, suggesting his influence over the earth."

Apocalyptic Literature: Revelations and Eternal Battles In the Book of Revelation, Satan is portrayed as the ultimate antagonist, leading a final battle against God, which culminates in his defeat and eternal punishment.

Mark Gagnon [46:19]: "Revelation refers to Satan as the accuser of our brothers, echoing his role in the Old Testament."

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Medieval Depictions of Satan

Artistic Evolution: From Ethereal to Monstrous During the Medieval period, Satan's image underwent significant transformation. Initially depicted as an angelic being in mosaics like the one in Ravenna, Italy ([49:34]), his portrayal shifted to a more beastly figure influenced by pagan deities such as the Greek God Pan.

Mark Gagnon [51:34]: "The Greek God Pan, with his goat legs and horns, provided a ready-made template for Christian artists to adapt Satan's image."

Literary Influence: Dante's Inferno Mark discusses Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy, specifically Inferno, where Satan is depicted as a giant trapped in ice, chewing on traitors, contrasting the later image of him as the ruler of hell.

Christos [53:35]: "In Dante's Inferno, Satan is a figure trapped in ice at the center of hell, chewing on history's greatest traitors."

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Literary Portrayals

John Milton's Paradise Lost: The Complex Rebel Mark elaborates on John Milton's Paradise Lost, which portrays Satan as a charismatic and tragic anti-hero. This depiction emphasizes his pride and ambition, making him a multifaceted character rather than a one-dimensional villain.

Christos [61:09]: "Milton portrays Satan as giving speeches to rally the fallen angels, inspiring them to continue their rebellion by framing their defeat as temporary."

Influence on Later Literature The portrayal of Satan in literature continued to evolve, influencing works like Faust and Cain, where he is depicted as a cunning tempter and a philosophical adversary challenging divine justice.

Mark Gagnon [63:11]: "Christian scholars like C.S. Lewis argue that Milton never meant to glorify Satan but to show how seductive evil can be."

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Modern Pop Culture

Satan in Media: From Villain to Relatable Figure In contemporary media, Satan's image oscillates between the traditional villain and more nuanced, relatable characters. Shows like Lucifer and South Park depict him with varying degrees of complexity and humor.

Mark Gagnon [64:25]: "Portrayals often lean into irony to subvert expectations by making Satan relatable or even likable."

The Satanic Panic: Societal Fear and Misinformation The hosts discuss the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, a period marked by widespread fear of satanic ritual abuse, spurred by dubious media reports and psychological theories.

Christos [65:07]: "The Satanic Panic doesn't come out of nowhere. It's the culmination of centuries of fear and fascination with the devil and witch trials."

Mark Gagnon [67:31]: "By the mid-1990s, the satanic panic largely subsided, but the impact lingered, embedding Satan firmly in the cultural imagination as a real and present danger."

Reclamation and Modern Symbolism Groups like The Satanic Temple have reclaimed satanic imagery as symbols of rebellion against religious authoritarianism, blending ancient symbols with modern political activism.

Mark Gagnon [71:03]: "The Satanic Temple uses Satan as a symbol for rebellion against religious authoritarianism, challenging traditional perceptions."

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Camp Gagnon provides a thorough exploration of Satan's transformation from ancient adversarial spirits to a complex figure entrenched in modern culture. By tracing his origins through Zoroastrianism, Jewish theology, Christian doctrine, medieval art, and contemporary media, the hosts offer listeners a nuanced perspective on one of humanity's most enduring and multifaceted symbols of evil.

Mark Gagnon [74:30]: "So the origin of Satan starts off in Persia, moves through Mesopotamia and the Canaanites, and then integrates into Judeo-Christian values, evolving into the figure we recognize today."

This comprehensive discussion not only demystifies the historical and theological underpinnings of Satan but also highlights his pervasive influence across various facets of human civilization and imagination.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Gagnon [09:00]: "In Zoroastrianism, Angra Mainyu is responsible for death, disease, and all suffering."
• Christos [38:14]: "In the Book of Enoch, Azazel becomes associated with Satan himself."
• Mark Gagnon [43:15]: "That's when Satan strikes Jesus with three temptations."
• Mark Gagnon [51:34]: "Pan provided a ready-made template for Christian artists to adapt Satan's image."
• Christos [61:09]: "Milton portrays Satan as giving speeches to rally the fallen angels."

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions about the origins and representations of Satan.

Transcript

[Mark Gagdon]

The origins of Satan. When you hear the word Satan, you probably think of like this singular malevolent being, this villain in the cosmic battle.

[Christos]

Between good and evil.

[Mark Gagdon]

But in the Hebrew Bible, Satan wasn't anything like the devil. We know from Christian theology. In fact, Satan wasn't even a name. It was just a title. In the Book of Job, Satan appears among the sons of God. Satan in the Hebrew Bible isn't some rogue agent against God. He's firmly under divine control. His role is less about spreading chaos and more about ensuring just by exposing human weakness. Mastema, a figure equated with Satan, requests permission from God to keep some demons.

[Christos]

On earth to tempt humans.

[Mark Gagdon]

John's gospel refers to Satan as the ruler of the world, kind of suggesting.

[Christos]

His influence over the earth.

[Mark Gagdon]

Satan wasn't always portrayed as this terrifying figure in medieval culture. In some medieval mystery plays, he appears as a comedic character. So we're going to go all the way back through the history of Satan. Where is Satan from? What's his whole vibe? Where did he grow up? We're going to figure it all out today. So sit back, relax, strap in. What's up, people?

[Christos]

And welcome back to religion camp.

[Mark Gagdon]

My name is Mark Gagdon, and welcome to my tent, where I explore the most interesting, fascinating and controversial topics from all religions from around the world, from all times. I'm joined today by my friend Christos. How are you?

[Zach]

What's up, everybody?

[Mark Gagdon]

Typically producing from beyond the tent, but today he has entered the holiest of chambers, the holiest of holies, to discuss an interesting topic. The origins of Satan.

[Zach]

El Diablo.

[Mark Gagdon]

Exactly.

[Christos]

It's an interesting question.

[Mark Gagdon]

Satan, right? Because for me, I grew up Catholic. Satan just always was right. Like, it's just. It's like the origin of God. It's like, yeah, there is none. He's God, I guess. Like, maybe not he always was, but, like, my conception is like a Catholic is like, all right, God created angels. He made one angel that was like, sick as hell, literally, and was like.

[Christos]

Running the show with all the other angels.

[Mark Gagdon]

He played music. He got very prideful. He didn't want to serve humanity, got banished out of the kingdom of heaven, went to hell with a legion of demons, and then, yeah, just runs hell. And then God is in heaven, running heaven. And then God gives Satan dominion over the earth. That's what I was taught as a child.

[Zach]

Well, they say Satan was a fallen angel.

[Mark Gagdon]

Exactly right.

[Dave]

That's what I was just saying.

[Mark Gagdon]

Oh, sorry, Christos.

[Zach]

I was. I was lost in your eyes.

[Dave]

Oh, dude, it's Been a dry season.

[Zach]

It's okay. It's turning around.

[Christos]

That is what people say, that he.

[Mark Gagdon]

Was a fallen angel. And by people, that's what I say just moments ago. But so, yeah, to me it's like, yeah, it's just fundamental. But again, it seems like Satan or some type of adversary exists in a.

[Christos]

Bunch of different cultures throughout a bunch.

[Mark Gagdon]

Of different time periods. It seems like our depiction of a modern Satan with like a, you know.

[Christos]

Pointy tail and red and, you know, cute, high ass.

[Zach]

South Park's depiction of the devil is the best, I think.

[Mark Gagdon]

Can you pull that up?

[Dave]

Of course. I would love to see.

[Mark Gagdon]

But like, where did that come from?

[Christos]

Like, who was that?

[Mark Gagdon]

Say, that's not really in the Bible. It's not like, oh, he's got a pitchfork and he's got, you know, red horns. Like so there's all these kinds of things where it's like you think, you.

[Dave]

Know, oh, with the goat feet. That's sort of sick. Sick little belt buckle.

[Zach]

That's the best.

[Dave]

Yeah, that one's. That one's pretty good.

[Mark Gagdon]

I like Tenacious D, Satan.

[Zach]

Tenacious D?

[Dave]

Yeah, it's Tenacious D tribute Satan. You've never heard of Tenacious D?

[Zach]

I've heard of Tenacious Jack Black and exactly this guy.

[Dave]

Yeah, it's a sick ass Satan. But yeah, there's actually kind of a similar vibe. He's got the goat feet too.

[Zach]

Oh, does he?

[Dave]

Yeah, look at that. If you click on the right one. Wait, Dave Grohl says what? It was pretty fun dressing up like the devil.

[Christos]

Hold on.

[Dave]

Did Dave Grohl play Satan in the music video?

[Zach]

Apparently.

[Dave]

No way. I mean, that's. What a world. So Dave Gro is my favorite Satan.

[Mark Gagdon]

Anyway, so we're going to go all the way back through the history of Satan, going all the way back to Zoran, Astrianism, Canaanites, the Hebrew Bible, all the way into Christianity, the New Testament.

[Christos]

We're talking about Enoch and the Dead Sea squirrels and how Satan exists in those ancient texts.

[Mark Gagdon]

And then what Satan was really up to, tempting Jesus in the wilderness. And then medieval Satan, like how it got blended with pagan gods and you know, kind of takes on this, this idea and like Dante's Inferno and like the. That there's this, this pit in the center of the earth where, you know, the evil incarnate resides.

[Zach]

So if you believe in Dante's Inferno, the devil is kind of the final boss of hell, I think.

[Mark Gagdon]

I've never actually read the works of Dante, so I don't I don't really know the order of.

[Christos]

Of hell.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's probably what the book is about. But I assume, I mean, I don't know what's more evil than the devil, right? Like, if you're writing a book and you're like, what's the evil thing? You'd be like, yeah, the devil is the evil, right? Regardless, we're gonna figure it all out today. So sit back, relax and strap in. But before we do that, I also just want to give a quick shout out. We have merch on the website campgoods Co soon to be renamed, I think in the new drop. We should do some religious merch. We should do something sick biblically accurate. Angel, you on the crucifix.

[Zach]

That'd be great.

[Mark Gagdon]

That would be great.

[Dave]

It might be sacrilegious.

[Mark Gagdon]

But also, without even really meaning to do that, people have already said that. Like I did that. We did one episode about the, you know, all the evidence that Christ existed as a person on earth. And all the comments were like, why'd you guys put Jesus as a white.

[Christos]

Guy in the thumbnail?

[Mark Gagdon]

And I was like, that is just me. Like they thought that. They thought I was trying to be G. I was like, bro, that's just what I look like. Yeah, but you know, dress for the job you want. And then additionally, I'm on the road. So if you would like to come see me do one singular hour of stand up comedy, you can catch [e-mail] I'm going all over a bunch of tour dates. Maybe we plug that later, maybe now. A bunch of cities, I mean, should I go through them right now? Charleston, Atlanta, Stroudsburg, Hoboken, Indianapolis, Buffalo, Raleigh, Portland, Fort Worth, Austin, Stanford, Philadelphia, Levittown, Chandler, Arizona, San Diego, Toronto, Montreal, Poughkeepsie, and probably a few more gonna get added along the way. You can get all those tickets@the markagon.com now let's get into it. All right? Where is Satan from? What's his whole vibe? Where did he grow up, you know, what town is Chicago? What's your guess?

[Christos]

I don't know.

[Mark Gagdon]

I don't know where Satan's really from. Long before the Bible was written, ancient civilizations, we're trying to figure out this concept of good versus evil, right? Like people can just naturally deduce we.

[Christos]

Live in a world with good, right?

[Mark Gagdon]

You have children, you have a nice meal, your friend farts near a fire, you're having a nice laugh. So that's pretty good. But then also there's disease, war, Death, all this evil stuff that exists. Innocent people just, you know, getting illnesses. Or an arrow flies over your campsite and just hits your mom in the head and you're like, damn, that sucks.

[Christos]

Why is.

[Mark Gagdon]

Why would that happen to me? And from an early, early time in human history, people try to figure it out. Where does evil come from?

[Christos]

And these early adversarial beings that people.

[Mark Gagdon]

Were kind of putting together weren't necessarily the ultimate embodiment of evil, but they played a role within their specific pantheons. So we're going to Persia. You know about Persia a little bit. AKA Iran. Modern day, AKA Persia. I don't know any Iranian that says they're Iranian. They're all like, yeah, I'm Persian. Like, where are you from?

[Zach]

That is interesting. There's this influencer guy. Have you seen him? He's like super hairy, but he walks around without a shirt on. He's like one of these Rizz gods.

[Dave]

No.

[Zach]

And he.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Do you want to see him?

[Mark Gagdon]

I mean. Yeah. I'm on the edge of my seat.

[Dave]

What kind of, what kind of a cliffhanger is this?

[Mark Gagdon]

What does he do?

[Zach]

He raises up girls, even though he has a sweater of hair on his body.

[Mark Gagdon]

Girls like that?

[Dave]

Christos, that's what we need to know. You should know this as a swearing.

[Zach]

I can tell you that they don't.

[Christos]

No, they just don't like you.

[Mark Gagdon]

But they like the hair.

[Zach]

That's a good point.

[Mark Gagdon]

They. They really like the hair, to be honest with you.

[Zach]

I'll tell you this about body hair. The girls that don't like it really don't like it, but the girls that do like it, like it a lot.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's great.

[Dave]

So it just weeds them out.

[Zach]

Yeah, literally.

[Dave]

Like they're gonna be weeding in your body here. I'll be honest.

[Zach]

Let me get to it.

[Mark Gagdon]

I think this is the lost cause. If you can't find it within a 60 second Google search, I think we just gotta keep on moving. Okay, so we're going to Persia and we're gonna talk about Zoroastrianism, one of the world's oldest continuously practiced religions. That's what I've always been told is like, arguably the oldest. This will be contested though. People don't like it when you say that. Specifically Hindus and Buddhists, they're like, no, no, we're the oldest. At the heart of Zoroastrianism beliefs that.

[Christos]

There is a battle between good and.

[Mark Gagdon]

Evil, personified by two primordial spirits at Hura Mazda and Angra Mainyu Ahura Mazda is the wise Lord and basically represents everything that's good. The light, order, you know, the is the creator God, the source of wisdom. And on the other hand you have the Angra Main you whose name literally means destructive spirit. And this entity just is everything evil, dark and shitty that exists in the world. The Angra Mainyu isn't just a minor nuisance.

[Christos]

This is a powerful force that actively.

[Mark Gagdon]

Opposes the Ahura Mazda and all of its creation. The Mainyu is responsible for death, disease and literally all the suffering in the world. So in many ways the Angra Mainyu serves as a prototype for later concepts of Satan. He's not seen as a lesser, you know, to the good God, but exists.

[Christos]

As an independent primordial force of evil.

[Mark Gagdon]

It's also worth noting before we get.

[Christos]

Any deeper in this, this is kind.

[Mark Gagdon]

Of going be examined from a quasi secular worldview.

[Christos]

If you believe that Satan is, you.

[Mark Gagdon]

Know, this eternal evil being that has no McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with.

[Dave]

One of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece.

[Mark Gagdon]

McNuggets with spicy nether Flame sauce. Now available with a Minecraft movie meal at participating McDonald's for a limited time. A Minecraft movie only in theaters.

[Unknown]

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[Mark Gagdon]

You know, source other than God then some of this examination might be, you know, outside of your faith background.

[Dave]

Additionally, a lot of this information was.

[Mark Gagdon]

Put together by my friend Zach. Good old Zach, just a country boy from Mississippi and he put together this six script. So I'm going to be learning along with you and then fact checking as I'm going along. If I miss anything, please don't hesitate to call me out. So the Zoroastrian worldview presents a dualistic.

[Christos]

Cosmos where good and evil are locked.

[Mark Gagdon]

In this eternal struggle. The idea of cosmic dualism later influences, you know, Judaism, obviously Christianity, basically all the Abrahamic religions. And as we move westward to the land of Canaan, we see another fascinating figure, Rayshef. Unlike Angra Mainyu, Rayshef isn't only evil. In fact his role is like kind of like complicated.

[Dave]

Can we get a Picture of Rayshev.

[Christos]

This is an ancient West Semitic God.

[Mark Gagdon]

Associated with plague, war and just like kind of ruled hell. And his name appears in text dating back to, I mean, I think it's like the third millennium BC showing just how ancient this, you know, Reshef is. And Richef was likely worshiped across the near east from Anatolia in modern day Turkey, so Cyprus, and some people say even in Egypt.

[Dave]

Oh wow, this is a creepy looking guy. Oh, it's Egyptian vibes. Reichef. Oh wow.

[Mark Gagdon]

I mean that's pretty crazy. From Turkey to Egypt. I mean that's a long way for people to be worshiping this God of plague and war. There are some ancient texts from the city of Ugarit, which is in Syria.

[Christos]

That describe Reshef as a gatekeeper of.

[Mark Gagdon]

The sun goddess and the guardian of the netherworld. He's also portrayed as the lord of battle, fire and disease. I mean that's crazy. He's a deity that's unleashing plagues with a bow and arrow. And this association with archery wasn't just metaphorical. In the Egyptian icons, Reshef is often depicted as a warrior God brandishing weapons. The Pharaoh Amenhotep 2 even considered reshef his personal military protector. That's crazy.

[Dave]

I mean, do we get the, do we got the image of him or.

[Mark Gagdon]

Is the, is the screen still bugging out of Raychef?

[Dave]

Yeah. Can you just highlight one of those? Okay. With a sick. Oh, he's from Philly or something. Sick beard. I mean he looks like fully, fully Egyptian.

[Zach]

Looks like it was a time before.

[Dave]

Yeah, he's an Egyptian dude. Yeah, I mean that's, that's. I mean, yeah, they said third, third century B.C. so it's been, it's been a minute.

[Mark Gagdon]

But yeah, that's, that's wild. So this guy was just a God of war and he had a special connection to the city of Shekem, an important Canaanite city that later became the capital of Samaria. According to the text from Ebla, Reshef.

[Christos]

Was the patron God of Shechem.

[Mark Gagdon]

This local connection shows how deeply embedded these deities were in the daily lives of these ancient people.

[Dave]

That's interesting.

[Mark Gagdon]

And Reshef wasn't only a war God. In some context, he was associated with.

[Christos]

Not only war, but also of fertility and well being. And the duality of the deity showcased.

[Mark Gagdon]

The nature of how people kind of viewed these gods as often, you know, both destructive and beneficial to the people. The worship of Reshef spread far and wide in the second millennium. The cult of Reshem moved from Syria.

[Christos]

To Palestine and then to Egypt.

[Mark Gagdon]

In later periods, it was sometimes identifying with other gods like the Babylonian Nergal or the Greek Apollo, showing how religious ideas blend and evolve over time. What's up, camp family? What's up, campers?

[Christos]

Two big announcements. Don't skip this.

[Mark Gagdon]

Two massive announce the merch store is back open.

[Christos]

That's right.

[Mark Gagdon]

Camp goods is back in stock. We got these hats that I'm wearing right now. I've been rocking them both on here on flagrant. I've been wearing them on stage. We got a bunch more hats like the ones behind me. You can see them all here on the website. We also got some shirts. Oh, man.

[Christos]

What is this one right here?

[Mark Gagdon]

Come on now.

[Christos]

Come on now.

[Mark Gagdon]

Camp gear for all terrain. We got some other ones. What is this one right here? Oh, this one's beautiful. This one might be one of my favorites.

[Christos]

The colors.

[Mark Gagdon]

The colors are absolutely crazy. Uh, this is Camp Gagnon vintage wisdom across the globe. Come on now. We got all that and more on the store. We also got these sick mugs right here. You might have seen me maybe sipping from one of these in some of the recent episodes. These are sick. They are all available on the website campgoods Co.

[Dave]

Check it out.

[Mark Gagdon]

Link is in the description. And by supporting the merchandise, you are obviously supporting the show. You're supporting me, and you're obviously, you know, supporting all the amazing people that make the show happen, like Christos, who is currently throwing me T shirts from underneath this desk here. So please check that out. Additionally, I'm on the road. That's right. I'm doing my one hour of stand up comedy. Some of some of the greatest jokes ever written. Okay, that's not true, but they are my jokes and I wrote them. I'll be in Portland, Maine on April 27th. And that one I'm doing with Joey Avery. You know Joey Avery, a friend of the show.

[Christos]

He sat across from me many times.

[Mark Gagdon]

And I'm explaining some things to him. And he might be my dumb friend, but he is a brilliant stand up comedian. And we will be there in Portland, Maine. If you are in these areas, please come out. And we're adding a ton of dates.

[Christos]

All through the summer.

[Mark Gagdon]

So check out my website, themarkagnon.com for all tour dates and updated info. Come hang out with me. I talk to every single person after the show. If you want to kick it with me, maybe have a drink, I'll be there and I will see you guys on the road. Now let's get back to the show. Here is a bullet. Imagine this.

[Unknown]

You're 30ft underground, digging through frozen earth with spoons and mess hall plates. Nazi guards patrol overhead. One wrong move, one loose pebble, and it's over. But on this night in 1944, 76 Allied prisoners would attempt the impossible, tunneling their way to freedom in the largest prisoner of war escape of World War II. And centuries earlier, in a cold stone chamber, a teenage girl in armor stood before her accusers. Her crime? Leading armies, speaking to angels, and daring to challenge the most powerful men in Europe. Joan of Arc's trial would become one of history's most infamous moments. These are just two stories from Today in History, the newsletter that brings you.

[Mark Gagdon]

The most fascinating events from the past.

[Unknown]

Delivered fresh to your inbox. From epic wars to religious rebellions, ancient mysteries to modern marvels, don't miss another piece of history. Scan the QR code now or click.

[Christos]

The link in the description to sign.

[Unknown]

Up for Today in History.

[Mark Gagdon]

And then there's Mesopotamia. This is basically the bread basket of American or of global civilization, also American civilization. Here we find basically a rich tapestry of beliefs about demons, evil spirits that would later influence Christianity, also Judaism, but mostly Christianity. In Mesopotamian thought, demons weren't necessarily the.

[Christos]

Embodiment of pure evil as we might think of them.

[Mark Gagdon]

Instead, they were often seen as, like.

[Christos]

Spirits of lesser power than the major deities.

[Mark Gagdon]

These demons could be hostile, causing, you know, trouble for humans to disease and even giving people, like, random headaches.

[Dave]

Oh, that's a.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's not that far.

[Dave]

Mesopotamia from Egypt.

[Mark Gagdon]

Yeah.

[Dave]

I mean, it's like a stone's throw. You could walk that.

[Mark Gagdon]

Where's.

[Dave]

I mean, Mesopotamia.

[Mark Gagdon]

I mean, what, the. The Tigris and the Euphrates, right?

[Dave]

That's the two rivers. Yep.

[Zach]

That's where. That's the reason they had all that rich soil or silt.

[Dave]

Yeah, it was called. You could farm, like, hella. Hella on that, right?

[Zach]

Hella.

[Dave]

Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, we got to go to Mesopotamia. That should be fire. What's. What is modern Mesopotamia? Where. What's. What's the vibe with that now? Turkey, Iran and Syria. Kuwait also. Wow.

[Zach]

Yeah, we got a needle of civilization.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's where it started. That's what I've always heard.

[Zach]

Is this also where Tino Tiklan was?

[Mark Gagdon]

Tino Chitlan.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagdon]

It's in South America or Central America. Mexico, I believe.

[Zach]

Never mind.

[Mark Gagdon]

But there's probably some versions of it over there, you know, I mean, where was Hammurabi from? Hammurabi Is, I think, Egyptian. I want to say maybe Mesopotamian.

[Zach]

Gotcha.

[Mark Gagdon]

But he wrote that whole code, I.

[Zach]

Guess I for an eye.

[Christos]

But where was he?

[Dave]

Where is he from?

[Zach]

Hammurabi, The Babylonian empire.

[Dave]

Ah. Where's modern day Babylonia?

[Zach]

Modern day. Why is everything in Iraq?

[Mark Gagdon]

Wow, Mesopotamia.

[Dave]

That's right, it is Iraq. Yeah.

[Christos]

So let's jump in.

[Mark Gagdon]

Obviously, the idea of good versus evil, the idea of, you know, some type of evil force that controlled the world is ancient. It's been going on for a long time. I mean, all the way back to Mesopotamia to, you know, Persia. Zoroastrian faith traditions had an evil spirit.

[Christos]

The Angra Mainyu, that opposed the creator.

[Mark Gagdon]

Spirit, the Ahura Mazda.

[Christos]

Canaanite mythology had Reshef, the God of.

[Mark Gagdon]

Plague and war, but also was the God of fertility and of plenty. And all throughout Mesopotamian beliefs, there were.

[Christos]

All sorts of different demons that were battling each other. And people say, or scholars rather suggest.

[Mark Gagdon]

That these early prototypical versions of Satan actually influenced what authors and artists would understand as the Jewish or the Christian version of Satan as it appears in the Torah or in the Bible. So when you hear the word Satan, you probably think of like this singular malevolent being, this villain and cosmic battle.

[Christos]

Between good and evil.

[Mark Gagdon]

But in the Hebrew Bible, Satan wasn't.

[Christos]

Anything like the devil we know from Christian theology.

[Mark Gagdon]

In fact, Satan wasn't even a name, it was just a title. So the Hebrew word Satan literally means adversary or accuser.

[Christos]

It comes from the root verb that means to oppose or to obstruct.

[Mark Gagdon]

In its earliest use, the term didn't refer to specific beings, but was more of a general term for anyone or anything that acted as an opponent. So, for example, 1st Samuel 29:4, the Philistines called David a potential Satan because.

[Christos]

They fear he may turn against them in battle.

[Mark Gagdon]

Here David is simply an adversary, not a supernatural force.

[Christos]

Numbers 22 22.

[Mark Gagdon]

The angel of Yahweh is described as acting as a Satan to Balaam, standing in his way to oppose him. Again, this is to obstruct, not necessarily malevolence. So that's interesting because the angel of Yahweh is obviously not evil, but is acting as an adversary, a Satan. However, when the term appears with the definite article the the adversary, it takes a more specific role. This isn't just any adversary. It is the figure operating within God's divine council tasked with testing or accusing individuals. So the clearest example of Hasatan appears.

[Christos]

In the book of Job and Zechariah.

[Mark Gagdon]

In these texts, Satan isn't an independent being working against God.

[Christos]

Instead, he is a part of God's heavenly court.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's interesting. Think of him as like a prosecuting attorney. So people will say that in the book of Job, the accuser Hasatan, Satan, as we understand him to be, appears among the sons of God, a term often used for divine beings in the Hebrew Bible. Maybe because he was an angel that was fallen. That's interesting. Satan challenges Job's righteousness, arguing that Job is only faithful because he's been blessed.

[Christos]

With wealth and comfort.

[Mark Gagdon]

He essentially says to God, take it.

[Christos]

All away and Job will curse you. What happens next? God allows Satan to test Job by taking away his wealth, killing his children.

[Mark Gagdon]

And afflicting him with painful sores, all without directly harming Job himself. But despite these trials, Job remains faithful. Here, Satan isn't acting necessarily out of.

[Christos]

Rebellion or hatred for humanity. He's fulfilling a role within God's system.

[Mark Gagdon]

A role that involves questioning and testing.

[Christos]

Human loyalty to God.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's interesting. I never knew that story through that lens. I never heard it that way.

[Zach]

How did you hear it?

[Mark Gagdon]

I always heard it that, you know, Satan was like, the only reason this guy's faithful is because he's got all this money. Let me take it all away and I'll prove that he's not faithful. And then Satan tested Job over and over and over, took everything away. And yet Job remained faithful.

[Christos]

And God allowed this to happen because.

[Mark Gagdon]

He allows Satan to operate, you know, with impunity on earth and kind of spread malevolence as he wishes. Because at the end of time, God.

[Dave]

Will get real Satan.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's what I heard as a kid. But it wasn't necessarily like God employed Satan to do this or asked Satan or kind of sent Satan to go do his bidding and challenge Job.

[Christos]

Whereas it seems like in this interpretation.

[Mark Gagdon]

It is that way.

[Zach]

He contracted Jesus, contracted the devil.

[Mark Gagdon]

Exactly. Subbed him out, you know what I mean? Went to, you know, got a subcontractor from like his brother in law, right? And was like, hey, you're the devil, hook it up, you know what I mean? So there's another one. The book of Zechariah.

[Christos]

Zechariah 3:1 and 2.

[Mark Gagdon]

Satan stands at the right hand of.

[Christos]

Joshua, the high priest, to accuse him before God.

[Mark Gagdon]

Joshua represents Israel as a nation returning from exile and seeking restoration. Satan argues that Joshua, and by extension.

[Christos]

Israel, is unworthy of this restoration due to their sins. However, God rebukes Satan and declares Joshua clean.

[Mark Gagdon]

Again, we see Satan functioning as an.

[Christos]

Accuser rather than an independent force of evil. He's there to challenge and test, but ultimately operates under God's authority.

[Mark Gagdon]

I feel like that's always what I was kind of taught, that Satan can't do anything without God's will. Like, God lets it happen. He doesn't require it or make it happen. He just allows it to happen. That's what I was talking.

[Zach]

Which is kind of also the way he acts in every movie that he's depicted in, right?

[Christos]

That God has the ultimate power, but.

[Mark Gagdon]

Allows Satan to do as he wishes.

[Zach]

I'm saying, like, Satan is the precipitator, right? He allows certain things to happen. Think of him in where Elizabeth Hurley plays him. She just grants three wishes and then takes someone's soul.

[Mark Gagdon]

She's the devil.

[Zach]

Those wishes are inherently evil. And then the devil's advocate with Keanu Reeves, same kind of deal.

[Mark Gagdon]

It's actually about to get a little bit spicier here.

[Christos]

One detail about Haseitan in these stories.

[Mark Gagdon]

Is that he doesn't act on his own initiative.

[Christos]

He requires permission from God to carry out the task.

[Mark Gagdon]

For example, in Job, God explicitly grades Satan permission to test Job, but sets clear limits on what he can do.

[Christos]

And in Zechariah, God directly intervenes to shut down Satan's accusation against Joshua.

[Mark Gagdon]

I feel like that contradicts God intervening to shut down Satan's accusation. That seems like that's what God's supposed to do, right? And then God allowing Satan to test, it's like, all right, God could do that hypothetically to teach some type of point. But that still doesn't seem like Satan's operating with, you know, his own volition.

[Zach]

It feels like he's limiting Satan's power to do what he does.

[Christos]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

This dynamic underscores that Satan in the.

[Christos]

Hebrew Bible isn't some rogue agent against God. He's firmly under divine control.

[Mark Gagdon]

His role is less about spreading chaos and more about ensuring justice by exposing human weakness. I don't know. I've based off of this, I don't feel like that's a compelling argument, personally.

[Zach]

Why?

[Mark Gagdon]

Like what? Like, I don't see how. Like, it's not like God is like, hey, Satan, go and test Job.

[Christos]

Satan's going to God being like, hey.

[Mark Gagdon]

I need to test Job, and he lets it happen. And then in Zechariah, it just seems like Satan is accusing Joshua and then God intervenes. So that feels like it has almost nothing to do with it. Seems like God comes and saves the day. Good versus evil.

[Dave]

Right?

[Mark Gagdon]

And so this idea that his role isn't about spreading chaos, it's about ensuring justice. I'm like, I don't know. That seems like a stretch based off the interpretation. Maybe there's something I'm missing here, but I don't know. It's also worth noting that the early versions of Satan is far removed from the, you know, horned figure over hell today. The Hebrew Bible never describes Satan's ruling.

[Christos]

Over hell or any realm at all.

[Mark Gagdon]

I didn't know that. There's no mention of him being a fallen angel or leading a rebellion against God. That idea comes much later in Jewish.

[Christos]

And Christian thought during the second Temple period.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's interesting. The term Satan is used sparingly in the Hebrew Bible only 26 times. And most occurrences don't even refer to a supernatural being, but rather human adversaries. Also interesting, this early portrayal shows that.

[Christos]

Ancient Jewish theology didn't have a fully.

[Mark Gagdon]

Developed concept of cosmic dualism where God and evil are locked in this conflict.

[Christos]

Instead, Hasatan was a part of a.

[Mark Gagdon]

Larger divine system designed to test humanity. If Hasatan wasn't originally the devil, how do we go from this kind of, you know, justice figure to evil? And again, that's, I mean, I don't necessarily even buy that. It seems like from this, I mean, I don't know the, the details of the, the Hebrew Bible's description of Satan. I don't know if they have that. I actually don't even know if it's in like the Christian Bible, like where as Satan rules hell. Can you Google that? Can you just check if that's a, that's a thing? I'm. I don't know where that would be.

[Christos]

It seems like during the Second Temple.

[Mark Gagdon]

Period, this is 539 B.C.

[Christos]

To 70 B.C.

[Mark Gagdon]

Or 70 A.D. jewish communities were exposed to Persian Zoroastrians, which featured a clear dualistic struggle between good and evil. Apocalyptic literature like the Book of Enoch began exploring ideas about fallen angels corrupting humanity.

[Christos]

These influences gradually reshape how Jews understood.

[Mark Gagdon]

Figures like Ha Satan transforming him something closer to what we understand as the devil.

[Christos]

Interesting.

[Dave]

The Christian Bible does not state that the devil or Satan rules hell. That's fascinating. The Bible describes Satan as being cast into a lake of fire as punishment for his rebellion against God. The Bible portrays hell as a place of eternal torment and punishment for those who reject God. Oh, okay, so Matthew 25, then he will say to those who is left apart from me, you are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And the devil who deceived them was thrown Into a lake of fire where the beast and false prophet have been thrown. They will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Whoa. There's no biblical basis for Satan ruling hell.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's fascinating.

[Dave]

I did not know that.

[Mark Gagdon]

So it is now kind of pointed out that in the Second Temple period.

[Christos]

Jewish communities faced political upheaval and foreign domination.

[Mark Gagdon]

During this period, their theological ideas evolved to address questions about suffering and divine intervention.

[Christos]

Why was Yahweh allowing bad things to happen to Israel? Why were they removed from their home during this period?

[Mark Gagdon]

As we move forward into the Second.

[Christos]

Temple, we'll see how ha Satan begins, shedding his role as God's prosecutor and.

[Mark Gagdon]

Taking on new characteristics, those of a.

[Christos]

Rebellious angel who defied divine authority.

[G]

If you're like me, you probably read.

[Mark Gagdon]

A news story and you're like, this is crazy.

[Christos]

What is the truth about this?

[G]

Is this a partisan spin? Is this funded by some media company or some country? By their state sponsored media to try to warp my brain? I genuinely read news articles now with so much skepticism because I have no idea if this is from the right or the left and what the agenda is and why it's being presented in front of me. And that is why I follow and support Ground News.

[Mark Gagdon]

That's right.

[G]

So even before I started working with this company on the podcast, I've been following them on Instagram because I just thought they gave a very, very great unbiased, nonpartisan approach to media.

[Mark Gagdon]

It's awesome.

[G]

Basically, you're going to get a headline and they will show you sort of the different media splits as it comes to understanding the story. They will compare the reporting from different outlets across the political spectrum in one place to show you how the framing and word choice can affect our understanding of a story. I mean, here's a story that my mom sent me from a couple months ago. Robberies, assaults, surge in Central park, leaving New Yorkers and NYC tourists terrified. What is the purpose of this story? Who is writing it? Where is it coming from? Now I can go to Ground News, read this headline, and be able to make an assessment as to whether or not this is predominantly being reported by the right wing or by the left wing and make some type of deduction.

[Mark Gagdon]

Like, oh, this is actually being used.

[G]

You know, as some sort of political apparatus. So if you're like me, if you're a truth seeker, if you're trying to find unbiased news, I would absolutely recommend Ground News. It is completely independent, nonpartisan, subscriber funded. It allows readers to think critically about.

[Mark Gagdon]

The world around them.

[G]

And it doesn't tell them what to think, but instead lets them think for themselves. And ultimately it avoids misinformation and tries to heal polarization within our country, which.

[Mark Gagdon]

I think is absolutely amazing.

[G]

So don't let misinformation and sensationalism influence how you think. Save a massive 40% on Ground News's top tier vantage plan with my link. Ground news/gagnon J, G, N O N. Or scan my QR code right here or go to the description and click on the link. This unlocks access to all of their news analysis features.

[Mark Gagdon]

Something that I think is, I don't.

[G]

Know, super important to have. Yeah, make decisions based on facts, not spin.

[Mark Gagdon]

This November, check them out. Imagine this.

[Unknown]

You're 30ft underground, digging through frozen earth.

[Christos]

With spoons and mess hall plates.

[Unknown]

Nazi guards patrol overhead. One wrong move, one loose pebble, and it's over. But on this night in 1944, 76 Allied prisoners would attempt the impossible, tunneling their way to freedom in the largest prisoner of war escape of World War II. And centuries earlier, in a cold stone chamber, a teenage girl in armor stood before her accusers. Her crime. Leading armies, speaking to angels, and daring to challenge the most powerful men in Europe. Joan of Arc's trial would become one of history's most infamous moments. These are just two stories from Today in History, the newsletter that brings you.

[Mark Gagdon]

The most fascinating events from the past.

[Unknown]

Delivered fresh to your inbox. From epic wars to religious rebellions, ancient mysteries to modern marvels. Don't miss another piece.

[Christos]

Piece of history.

[Unknown]

Scan the QR code now or click.

[Christos]

The link in the description to sign.

[Unknown]

Up for Today in History.

[Mark Gagdon]

Okay, now, if we need to understand Jewish theology, we have to look at the Babylonian exile. And Babylon is in Iraq. Iraq. Look at you, Christos Remembering ship. This period wasn't just political upheaval. It was a crucible that transformed how the Jewish people understood their relationship with God, the nature of evil, and the cosmic forces at play. The exile didn't just displace a nation. It uprooted ideas and planted seeds for new ones, including the evolution of Satan from this accuser to an actual rebellious, like, you know, devil as we understand it. So the Babylonian exile begins in 586 BC when King Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon conquers Jerusalem.

[Dave]

Why'd you give me that phase?

[Zach]

You pronounce that great.

[Mark Gagdon]

Oh, I've just. I've heard that growing up. Nebuchadnezzar.

[Zach]

Gotcha.

[Mark Gagdon]

Yeah. He conquers Jerusalem, destroys Solomon's temple, and deported much of the Jewish population to Babylon. For the Jewish people, this was more than just a military defeat.

[Christos]

It was a theological crisis. The temple is gone.

[Mark Gagdon]

The destruction of the temple isn't just a physical loss.

[Christos]

It is a spiritual catastrophe.

[Mark Gagdon]

The temple is God's dwelling on earth.

[Christos]

The center of worship and sacrifice.

[Mark Gagdon]

And this destruction raises a lot of questions. Has God abandoned his people?

[Christos]

Why were they defeated by the Babylonians and their gods?

[Mark Gagdon]

Is any of this real? What's going on? They're also exiled from the promised land, being forced out of their homeland, the land that God gave them. According to their theology, this felt like.

[Christos]

A divine punishment for many Jews.

[Mark Gagdon]

This, you know, they struggle to reconcile their suffering with their belief in a just God and now exposure to new ideas. They're living in Babylon and, you know, they're surrounded by foreign cultures and religions, and it introduces new concepts about cosmic.

[Christos]

Dualism and the battle of good and evil.

[Mark Gagdon]

One of the biggest challenges during the exile was understanding why this devastation had occurred.

[Christos]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

The Jewish people believed that they were the chosen people, so why would they get conquered? So you have prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel interpret, wow, this house is cute.

[H]

But can I really get in the game in this economy? I do have savings and I am responsible.

[Mark Gagdon]

Ish.

[H]

I should bury it. I'm being wild. But what if I'm not being wild though? Could I actually.

[Mark Gagdon]

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[Mark Gagdon]

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[H]

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[Unknown]

Go to your happy price.

[Mark Gagdon]

Priceline.

[Christos]

Seeing the exile as punishment for Israel's sins.

[Mark Gagdon]

Idolatry, injustice, failure to uphold God's covenant.

[Christos]

And they emphasize repentance and faithfulness as.

[Mark Gagdon]

The path towards restoration. So there's now this shift from the Babylonian exile into individual responsibility. So the pre exile theology often focused on collective punishments. So you know, the entire nation will suffer for the sins Whereas during the exile, there was an emphasis on individual accountability, a theme that would later influence a ton of ideas about Satan and his role, you know, leading people astray and temptation.

[Christos]

And then the question of evil.

[Mark Gagdon]

This is like a fundamental theological question.

[Christos]

Why does evil exist?

[Mark Gagdon]

And obviously with the Israelites getting conquered.

[Christos]

This question comes up, why would God let this happen? So the exile forces the Jews to grapple with the presence of evil in the world.

[Mark Gagdon]

If God is all powerful, all good.

[Christos]

Why does he allow this suffering to occur?

[Mark Gagdon]

So while in Babylon, the Jews come in contact with Zoroastrianism. Like we talked about briefly at the beginning, after Cyrus the Great conquers Babylon, Zoroastrianism introduces a radically different worldview that.

[Christos]

Some people suggest influences Jewish thought in this time.

[Mark Gagdon]

So you have, you know, the Ahura Mazda, the good God, the Angra Mainu, the polar opposite, and evil God. And the cosmos is a battleground for these two forces. And this dualistic framework is, you know, different from the traditional Jewish monotheism where God holds absolute power over good and evil.

[Christos]

So now you're introducing this idea of an adversary that they already have that.

[Mark Gagdon]

Now exists as a, you know, contrary force to the monotheistic power of, you know, the singular God. It's also worth noting that Zoroastrianism features a rank of, you know, spiritual entities.

[Christos]

That serve both the good God and.

[Mark Gagdon]

The bad God, basically like a hierarchy that some people suggest influences the people's ideas about, you know, angels and demons. And so in apocalyptic literature, Zoroastrians, you know, depict end time battles between good.

[Christos]

And evil, a theme that becomes central to Jewish apocalyptic writing.

[Mark Gagdon]

You know, like Daniel and, you know, first, second and third Enoch. So where's this idea of Satan being, you know, an evil angel? Where does that, where does that come from? That's what I was always taught growing up. That's what I. That's what I thought. So by the time the second Temple period comes around, Jewish thought has this.

[Christos]

Dramatic transformation and there's an era of rebuilding, not just physically, but the Jewish.

[Mark Gagdon]

People returned from Babylon, you know, then.

[Christos]

They'Re exiled there to rebuild the temple.

[Mark Gagdon]

But also, you know, to rebuild their spiritual core. It was during this time that the.

[Christos]

Concept of Satan shifts from a divine.

[Mark Gagdon]

Prosecutor to this actual, like, you know, rebellious figure. So you have a lot of the theological questions that emerge during the period. And the Book of Enoch and many.

[Christos]

Of the Dead Sea Scrolls introduce the.

[Mark Gagdon]

Idea of this fallen angel corrupting humanity, setting the stage for Satan's evolution as a rebel. One of the most influential texts is the Book of Enoch in its first sections, known as the Book of the Watchers. I've talked about this a lot. I find this to be a fascinating old text. The text expands on a cryptic passage.

[Christos]

In Genesis which mentions the sons of God.

[Mark Gagdon]

What does that mean? The sons of God taking human women as wives and producing offspring, known as Nephilim. The Book of Enoch turns this brief mention into an elaborate narrative about angelic rebellion. Here's how it unfolds, right?

[Christos]

Here's the brief of it.

[Mark Gagdon]

If you don't know anything about the Book of Enoch, you got 200 angels. They're called Watchers. They're tasked with watching over humanity. They're led by one angel named Semjaza. They descend to Earth, violate divine law by taking human women as wives. We got the baddest woman in the universe.

[Christos]

Their union produces giants known as Nephilim.

[Mark Gagdon]

Who wreak havoc on Earth. And the Watchers also corrupt humanity by teaching forbidden knowledge such as, you know, astrology, cosmetics, you know, makeup, weapon making, all that stuff. Almost like Prometheus. You can imagine. And then the story introduces a ton of key ideas, right? So you have these people, sons of God, that are tasked with a job. They deviate from their task and then corrupt humanity. Sounds very similar to Satan, right? So while Semjaz is the leader of the rebellion in Enoch, there's another figure that appears, Azazel, who is singled out for teaching humans how to make weapons and jewelry, fueling both violence and vanity.

[Christos]

In Jewish tradition, Azazel becomes associated with Satan himself and is seen as his chief lieutenant.

[Mark Gagdon]

The Dead Sea Scrolls, which was discovered in qumran in the mid 20th century.

[Christos]

Also provide additional insights into the second temple period of Jewish beliefs about these fallen angels. One scroll in particular, the War scroll, describes an apocalyptic battle between the sons.

[Mark Gagdon]

Of light led by Michael, and the sons of darkness associated with Belial. Belial is another name for a malevolent.

[Christos]

Being equated with Satan in later traditions, Belial is the leader of the demons.

[Mark Gagdon]

And he's associated with, you know, corruption, deceit, lawlessness, qualities that align closely with Satan's emerging role. And in the Qumran community that preserved all these, you know, fragments of these, you know, Essian Jews of, you know, that. That put the Dead Sea Scrolls together. They echo themes from Enoch, including references to, you know, the angelic rebellion and things like that. In second Enoch, there's actually an interesting reference to Satan. He appears as Satanail, the leader of the fallen angels who refuses to venerate Adam, a precursor to later Christian ideas about prideful rebellion against God.

[Dave]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Mark Gagdon]

Can you, could you look up that idea of like, where in the Bible Satan, being a fallen angel comes from because being an Enoch that he refuses to venerate Adam, like that's what I believe. But I'm like, is that even in the Bible?

[Christos]

And then in the Jubilees, another second.

[Mark Gagdon]

Temple text, Mastema, a figure equated with Satan, requests permission from God to keep.

[Christos]

Some demons on earth to tempt humans.

[Mark Gagdon]

As an example of how evil was seen as both autonomous but also divinely permitted.

[Dave]

Okay, so in Isaiah there's a passage that ref. That describes the fall of the king of Babylon and uses language that suggests a fall from position of power, saying how you are fallen from heaven. Oh, Lucifer, son of the morning. Whoa.

[Mark Gagdon]

This passage describes the fall of the.

[Dave]

King of Ty, who's, you know, represents Satan, having been a sheriff and being full of wisdom, who's later filled with pride, which leads to his downfall. I saw Satan fall from, fall like lightning from heaven, Jesus says in Luke 10. And then this revelation passage describes a war in heaven where Michael and his angels fight against the dragon and his angels, resulting in their defeat and expulsion from heaven. And then Matthew mentions the devil and his angels being thrown into hell, implying they were once angels.

[Mark Gagdon]

Interesting. Well, so it doesn't, it's not as explicit. It seems like, it seems like it's kind of pulled together.

[Dave]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

And Enoch doesn't seem like it's that far off. It seems like they were all saying the same thing. All right, now let's talk about Christian Satan, shall we? This is the one that I'm probably the most familiar with, growing up as a Catholic in the New Testament, it seems like Satan transforms into a full on cosmic villain that's very different and departs from a lot of the other interpretations of Satan and the other text. So one of the most iconic moments in the New Testament is Satan tempt.

[Christos]

Jesus in the wilderness.

[Mark Gagdon]

This event occurs in Matthew, Mark and Luke and occurs right after Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist.

[Christos]

It's a pivotal moment that showcases Satan's.

[Mark Gagdon]

Audacity and Jesus's unwavering commitment to God.

[Christos]

So Jesus, led by the Spirit, ventures.

[Mark Gagdon]

Into the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights of fasting. He's weakened.

[Christos]

And that's when Satan strikes.

[Mark Gagdon]

The devil approaches Jesus with three temptations.

[Christos]

Each more cunning than the last.

[Mark Gagdon]

He tempts him with bread, saying that.

[Christos]

He can turn the stones into bread, appealing to his hunger.

[Mark Gagdon]

But Jesus counters and says that man does not live on bread alone. And then the temple jump. Satan takes Jesus to the highest point of the temple in Jerusalem, daring him to throw himself down. And the angels catch him again. Jesus refuses.

[Christos]

And then the kingdoms of the world.

[Mark Gagdon]

In a bold move, Satan offers Jesus.

[Christos]

All the kingdoms of the world if he just bows down and worships him.

[Mark Gagdon]

But Jesus firmly rejects this offer, commanding Satan to leave. Wow. I mean, yeah, I've not. I need to go back and read that. It's like such a bizarre text that you have, like, these two deities, like, actually corresponding. So in it, Satan is brazen, attempting to, you know, tempt the Son of God, God himself. It reveals Satan's tactics, using physical needs, spectacle and power to tempt humans. And intriguingly, Satan's offer of all the.

[Christos]

Kingdoms implies that he has some authority.

[Mark Gagdon]

Over the kingdoms of earth. Jesus doesn't dispute the claim, suggesting that the gospel authors believe Satan has some control over earthly powers. So while the temptation narrative gives us.

[Christos]

A closer view of Satan's method, other.

[Mark Gagdon]

Parts of the New Testament provide glimpses into the origins of the fall. So Jesus makes the striking statement that we just read before that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. This brief yet dramatic line hints at the backstory where Satan's cast out of heaven. And the idea of Satan as a fallen angel again goes back to Isaiah and Ezekiel. Like we have mentioned before, you have fallen from the heavens. Morning star, son of dawn. The narrative that emerges from this text.

[Christos]

Is one of pride and ambition. Satan.

[Mark Gagdon]

You know, possibly this is again, what I heard. I thought this was just word for word in the Bible. It turns out it's more of an interpretation is the highest and the most beautiful of the angels becomes dissatisfied with his position, driven by pride, rebels against God, tries to usurp the throne, and then as a punishment, is cast out of heaven and many angels fall follow him. The cosmic drama sets the stage for.

[Christos]

Satan's role as God's adversary and the source of evil in the world.

[Mark Gagdon]

It's a powerful origin story, I, I'll give you that. I mean, that's, that's. It's kind of a banger, to be honest with you. In the Gospels, again, they show Satan as this temp, this tempter. And, you know, many of the Gospels.

[Christos]

Hint at this fall. And the book of Revelation shows Satan.

[Mark Gagdon]

In his final, most terrifying form, the great red dragon. Revelation 12 says, and another sign appears in heaven.

[Christos]

Behold a great red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and on his head seven crowns. His tail swept down A third of the stars of heaven and cast them to Earth.

[Mark Gagdon]

I mean, there's a ton of symbolism and imagery. The crown suggesting his rule over the kingdoms of Earth.

[Christos]

The dragons, multiple heads and horns representing power and authority.

[Mark Gagdon]

The tail sweeping down to take a third of the stars, perhaps as Satan's rebellion and taking the legion of angels. Revelation specifically identifies this dragon as an ancient serpent who is called the devil.

[Christos]

And Satan the deceiver of the whole world.

[Mark Gagdon]

The connection links Satan back to the serpent in the Garden of Eden, creating a narrative arc that spans from creation to end times.

[Dave]

Whoa. I mean, that's pretty freaky picture.

[Mark Gagdon]

I mean, I couldn't imagine being like just some 1200s, you know, peasant reading.

[Dave]

The Bible for the first time, being like, what the.

[Zach]

This is what awaits me if I'm a bad person.

[Mark Gagdon]

I mean, dude, I mean, that's crazy. Maybe it does. That's wild. The dragon imagery again draws on Old Testament traditions. You know, echoing the Leviathan, a mystical sea monster often associated with evil. By portraying Satan as this dragon, Revelation.

[Christos]

Emphasizes his role as the embodiment of chaos.

[Mark Gagdon]

In the New Testament, there's a ton of references to Satan. Here are just a few of them.

[Christos]

Jesus is in the wilderness, getting tempted. That's Satan, the tempter.

[Mark Gagdon]

John's gospel refers to Satan as the ruler of the world, kind of suggesting his influence over the earth. Paul calls Satan the God of this age who blinds the mind of unbelievers.

[Christos]

Jesus describes Satan as a liar and the father of lies.

[Mark Gagdon]

Revelation refers to Satan as the accuser of our brothers, echoing again that role in the Old Testament. And finally, New Testament authors just refer to Satan as the evil one, encapsulating.

[Christos]

His nature as a source of wickedness.

[Mark Gagdon]

Almost like Voldemort. Don't even want to say the name, you know? And the New Testament's portrayal of Satan culminates in this final vision, the revelation this apocalyptic literature presents. History is moving towards this climactic showdown. I mean, many people still believe in the Revelation. It's kind of. It's a real thing that's going to happen. I don't know. I'm like. It's just. It's too hard to even wrap your head around.

[Zach]

Happened in South Park.

[Mark Gagdon]

What happens?

[Zach]

Satan rises, comes back.

[Dave]

Yeah, and.

[Mark Gagdon]

And then what?

[Zach]

And he has to fight with Jesus in a boxing match.

[Mark Gagdon]

Did Jesus win?

[Zach]

I don't want to spoil it for anyone out there. The movie is 15 years old, but.

[Christos]

What movie is this?

[Zach]

Bigger, longer and uncut. South Park.

[Dave]

I might need a classic I might.

[Mark Gagdon]

Need to watch that, maybe do an episode on that.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christos]

So throughout the book of Revelation, obviously.

[Mark Gagdon]

You see Satan and, you know, good God, the spirit that controls heaven, as having this huge battle.

[Christos]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

You know, Satan is gathering his forces against God and his people. And then there's this battle called Armageddon and Satan, his followers are defeated and face a final judgment. Just kind of, you know, that's how the Bible ends. Pretty good story. The New Testament's portrayal of Satan, Satan.

[Christos]

As a fallen angel, this rebel and.

[Mark Gagdon]

This adversary of God has a profound impact on Christian theology and then obviously Western culture and as you can imagine.

[Christos]

Influences a lot of the art and.

[Mark Gagdon]

Literature that comes out of medieval Europe, which is kind of where we get.

[Christos]

This idea of Satan with horns, hooves.

[Mark Gagdon]

And the ruler of hell. So in the Middle Ages you have this dramatic transformation in how Satan is portrayed, both Christian theology and art. And the earliest known depiction of Satan.

[Christos]

Comes from the 6th century mosaic in.

[Mark Gagdon]

The Basilica of Scent Apollonier in Ravenna, Italy. Can you pull that up?

[Dave]

That's.

[Mark Gagdon]

It'd be interesting to see. The image shows Satan as this ethereal blue angel, far from red skinned, horned, or with hooves.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Christos]

So this angelic portrayal was abandoned in favor of a more demonic appearance.

[Dave]

I'd be curious to see what this.

[Mark Gagdon]

Looks like because I'm not even sure. How do we know if it's the devil? Like, is there devilish things about him? I mean, I'm sure someone did the research and figured out what the, what the, you know, basilica was pointing at. So as you move into the late medieval period, Satan's image becomes more beastly. You could say dragons were a common representation symbolizing, you know, evil. And, and for instance, there's even a.

[Christos]

Legend about Pope St. Sylvester slaying a.

[Mark Gagdon]

Dragon, which impressed a group of pagan.

[Christos]

Priests and confirmed the Christian faith of the Roman Emperor Constantine.

[Dave]

Is this, this is the one in the basilica where Satan. That's the. Is. Is right there on the right.

[Zach]

I would assume it's this one.

[Dave]

No, it's a blue angel.

[Zach]

Oh, maybe it's this one though.

[Dave]

Whoa. Maybe the blue angels. Whoa. The blue angels are Satanic.

[Zach]

Who are the blue angels?

[Dave]

The, the pilots.

[Zach]

Oh. Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Dave]

Whoa. So that's the, the blue angel right there. That's the one. That's. Can you click on this? The earliest depiction of Lucifer can be traced to a mosaic in this basilica which shows two angels, a red angel of sheep and a blue angel of goats with Jesus in between. Here. The blue angel seems to Be Lucifer uncharacteristically portrayed.

[Mark Gagdon]

Wow, that's fascinating.

[Christos]

So as you move into this late.

[Mark Gagdon]

Medieval period, you have all these dragons. But it wasn't just the mythical creatures.

[Christos]

That influenced Satan's image.

[Mark Gagdon]

Real animals play a significant role. Many medieval portrayals show him having cloven.

[Christos]

Hooves, tails, talons, and even webbed hands. 14th century French manuscripts known as the Smithfield Decretals showed the devil with various.

[Mark Gagdon]

Animal parts, depicting him as a monstrous beast. Bears, lions and foxes were amongst the animals once attributed to Satan. One of the most significant influences on Satan's medieval image was the Greek God Pan. With goat legs, horns, associated with wild nature and carnal desires, Pan provided a.

[Christos]

Ready made template for Christian artists and theologians to adapt.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Mark Gagdon]

So it's really just Pan. Can you search the Greek God Pan and get an image of that? That'd be interesting.

[Dave]

Oh, wow. So that's how we understand the devil. Well, yeah, look at that. Yeah, it's basically just a. He's got horns, he's got hooves, got a six pack. Got a six pack. I mean.

[Mark Gagdon]

Yeah, that's, that's the devil.

[Christos]

That's interesting.

[Dave]

And what was Pan, the God of goats?

[Mark Gagdon]

I think just a God of ghosts. I mean, did he do any evil stuff?

[Christos]

How did he get wrapped up with being Satan?

[Zach]

It's the God of wild shepherds, flocks and rustic music.

[Christos]

Wow.

[Dave]

Often restricted, depicted as a seder, he's associated with nature and forests. He was create, had the lower body of a goat. The word panic is believed to have originated from Pan's name, as he was known to inspire fear in those who encountered him. Whoa. Oh, this is so interesting.

[Mark Gagdon]

I'm, I'm, I'm curious why they just chose that.

[Christos]

So the church incorporated local pagan beliefs.

[Mark Gagdon]

And imagery into his teachings as a way to make Christianity more accessible. So in Satan's case, this resulted in a figure that combined the fallen angel.

[Christos]

Of Christian tradition and with the wild.

[Mark Gagdon]

Animalistic aspects of pagan culture. So as Satan's physical appearance evolves, so does this idea about his domain. The concept of hell as a place of eternal fire and torment becomes firmly established.

[Christos]

During the period.

[Mark Gagdon]

This wasn't just a theological concept. It was vividly depicted in art and literature. So then we have Dante Alighieri, Divine Comedy, known as, you know, with a specific section known as, you know, Dante's Inferno. The Inferno section marks a significant point.

[Christos]

In understanding Satan's portrayal.

[Mark Gagdon]

So unlike the fiery ruler of hell often depicted in popular imagination, Dante, Satan is a figure trapped in ice at.

[Christos]

The center of hell.

[Mark Gagdon]

In this 14th century work, Satan appears.

[Christos]

As a monstrous giant with three faces, each a different color. Red, yellow, black.

[Mark Gagdon]

He has six bat like wings.

[Christos]

As he beats them, he creates icy.

[Mark Gagdon]

Winds that keep him and other sinners frozen in place. I gotta read Dante's Inferno. That shit is fire. The imagery combines both animalistic and human elements, reflecting Satan's fall from grace. Dante. Satan also doesn't speak.

[Christos]

He only weeps and chews on history's.

[Mark Gagdon]

Greatest traitors in his three mouths. Judas, Brutus and Cassius. This silent weeping devil is a very different from the smooth talking tempter of earlier traditions. Instead of ruling Hell, he's its prisoner, powerless against God's judgment. That's possibly one of the most significant.

[Christos]

Developments in Satan's medieval portrayals, his elevation.

[Mark Gagdon]

To the status of hell ruler. This idea isn't found in the Bible. It's widely accepted though, during this period.

[Christos]

Interestingly, the concept of Satan ruling Hell.

[Mark Gagdon]

Seems to have originated in Dante's Divine Comedy.

[Christos]

Before this, Satan was generally seen as.

[Mark Gagdon]

A prisoner of hell, not its master.

[Christos]

I see.

[Mark Gagdon]

So in Dante's Inferno, despite him being a prisoner of hell, the medieval mind grappled and sort of attached itself to this idea that he was ruling Hell.

[Zach]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

And that that is where Satan lives. He runs the show from hell. And despite if you actually read it, yo, he's actually just a prisoner. But people still are just like, nah, he's running that shit. Right, Interesting.

[Zach]

And from what I know about the book, the, the seventh Circle of Hell, the last one is reserved for those three people you mentioned, Judas, Brutus and Cassius. Cassius. So wouldn't the devil be there if he was the prisoner?

[Dave]

Yeah, I guess so. They're probably looking at it being like.

[Mark Gagdon]

Yeah, oh, he's in charge of something.

[Zach]

If you're the ultimate prisoner, you got to be in the last circle.

[Mark Gagdon]

And then, not to mention he's chewing on them.

[Zach]

Right?

[Mark Gagdon]

So it's like it seems like he has some dominion over these people that are banished to hell.

[Zach]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

It is funny that they put Judas and just a guy that killed Julius Caesar, you know, I mean like, like.

[Christos]

One of them killed the savior of.

[Mark Gagdon]

The universe, the other one just killed like a Roman politician.

[Zach]

Right. And who's Cassius?

[Dave]

I don't even know.

[Mark Gagdon]

Another Roman politician. Ask him. Figure out what Cassius did. I don't even know what that's all about. So many theologians continue to see Satan as a prisoner, not its ruler.

[Christos]

But tensions between these two views continue into later periods and still exist in some forms today.

[Mark Gagdon]

So for mediev Christians yet, the devil wasn't just a distant theological concept. It was a real present day danger. They believed in demonic possession and exorcisms and they were practiced commonly, not just by Christians, but also Jews and pagans. Did you find it? Yep.

[Dave]

What did Cassius do?

[Zach]

He also.

[Mark Gagdon]

Oh, he was a.

[Christos]

He was a collaborator with Brutus.

[Zach]

Right.

[Dave]

To kill Caesar. Right. Oh, I knew that, but I just.

[Mark Gagdon]

Kind of reserved myself.

[Zach]

I feel like, who the hell is Julius Caesar for his killers.

[Mark Gagdon]

Both of them.

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[Mark Gagdon]

Like, what about the Romans that killed, you know, or Pontius Pilate that sentenced Christ to death? Yeah, I mean, that's crazy that Julius Caesar was given that much reverence.

[Zach]

Or the dude that speared Jesus on the cross.

[Dave]

That's what I'm saying.

[Mark Gagdon]

Wild that they're just like, all right, one of Jesus killers, two of Julius Caesar's. Come on, Dante. I mean, that's just how much these guys love Rome, you know what I mean?

[Zach]

Oh, that's a good point.

[Mark Gagdon]

Yeah, Dante.

[Christos]

You think Dante's easy, but yo, he killed Caesar.

[Dave]

You're not gonna let that.

[Mark Gagdon]

Come on.

[Dave]

The last circle of hell, you go, yeah, it's crazy.

[Mark Gagdon]

So the fear of demonic influence led to a lot of dark chapters in history. Some could say 1430s, the Catholic Church begins to view witchcraft as a part of a vast conspiracy by Satan himself. And this later goes into, you know, witch trials and things like that. So Satan wasn't always portrayed as this terrifying figure in medieval culture. In some medieval mystery plays, he appears.

[Christos]

As a comedic character.

[Mark Gagdon]

Those portrayals show Satan as this foolish figure who's frolicking around clumsily and even.

[Christos]

Farting in the background.

[Mark Gagdon]

The comedic Satan was more pathetic than terrifying, reflecting this belief that the devil was powerless against God's plan. In the Golden Legend, a collection of saints lives compiled around 1260, it contains numerous stories of encounters between saints and Satan. In these tales, Satan is outwitted by the saints cleverness and God's power. These stories serve not only to entertain, but also to reassure believers that faith.

[Christos]

Overcomes the devil's schemes.

[Mark Gagdon]

The medieval period reimagining Satan has a lasting impact that extends far beyond even the Middle ages. This idea of this red skinned horned devil with hooves and a pitchfork becomes so ingrained in western culture that it's still the default representation of Satan and everything from Halloween costumes to cartoons to, you know, south park and Tenacious D.

[Christos]

So the idea of Satan as a.

[Mark Gagdon]

Ruler of hell with, you know, while it's not biblically accurate, becomes this part of biblical or popular theology. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm, I'm curious how it like, you know, merges into pop culture more, but this idea that all these girls that dress up as like a slutty Satan are really just dressing up like Pan.

[Dave]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

It's very funny to me.

[Zach]

You know what we haven't touched on? How do we get to the devil taking over people's bodies?

[Mark Gagdon]

Oh, like exorcism stuff? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's in the Bible a little bit.

[Zach]

Oh, is it?

[Mark Gagdon]

There's a few references, if I'm not mistaken. There's, I think there's actually only one reference, as a matter of fact, that I think it's Christ that does an exorcism and casts evil spirits into a pig and then sends the pig off to fly off a mountain and it dies running off a cliff. Can you search that exorcism pig, Bible?

[Dave]

Yeah. In the New Testament, Jesus is a powerful exorcist demonstrating his authority over demonic forces. I forget exactly where, but the demons beg Jesus not to send them away, but instead to send them into pigs or a nearby hillside, which he does. The herd, about 2,000 in number, rush down the steep bank into the sea and drown. Jesus asked for the name of the demon and his sentence. They say, I am legion, for we are many. Creepy as hell, but yeah.

[Mark Gagdon]

So Satan's journey goes from this medieval period into more, you know, pop cultural references. So John Milton writes this book called paradise lost in the 1600s, and it.

[Christos]

Is considered the definitive literary portrayal of Satan.

[Mark Gagdon]

The poem recounts Satan's fall from heaven, his rebellion against God, his role in corrupting humanity through Adam and Eve.

[Christos]

And what makes Milton Satan so captivating is the complexity. He's not just a villain, he's an.

[Mark Gagdon]

Anti hero whose pride and ambition lead to his downfall. From the very beginning, Satan dominates the narrative.

[Christos]

He opens the poem as this defiant.

[Mark Gagdon]

Figure rallying his fallen angels in hell with one of literature's most famous lines.

[Christos]

Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.

[Mark Gagdon]

I could have Read Paradise Lost. That's fire. This declaration encapsulates the immense pride and refusal to submit to God. Milton portrays Satan as this master orator, capable of stirring loyalty amongst his followers despite the damnation forever. Satan is depicted as giving speeches to.

[Christos]

Rally the demons to prepare them for these cosmic battles.

[Mark Gagdon]

He inspires the fallen angels to continue their rebellion by framing their defeat as temporary.

[Dave]

It's like, hey, we're just working through some stuff.

[Mark Gagdon]

We're gonna get back to heaven, don't even worry. And while the pandemonium, which is hell's grand capital, built by the demons, Satan declares that they can make Hell their.

[Christos]

Own kingdom, a place where they can.

[Mark Gagdon]

Still exercise free will. Yet beneath this lies this conflicted character. Milton gives a glimpse of Satan's turmoil in book four. As Satan enters Eden and sees Adam.

[Christos]

And Eve for the first time, he.

[Mark Gagdon]

Experiences a moment of regret and longing for God's grace.

[Christos]

Is there no place left for repentance?

[Mark Gagdon]

None for pardon left? The moment humanizes him, showing that even.

[Christos]

The ultimate rebel feels the weight of his choices. John Milton also uses Satan to explore themes of free will and agency.

[Mark Gagdon]

Unlike Adam and Eve, who succumbed to temptation but later seek forgiveness, Satan chooses rebellion, knowing its consequences. This line of, you know, the mind.

[Christos]

Is its own place and in itself.

[Mark Gagdon]

Can make a heavenly of hell, a.

[Christos]

Hell of heaven reflects the idea of.

[Mark Gagdon]

Self determinism, that you know, you can make reality whatever you want it to be, despite the, you know, threat of eternal suffering. Critics have debated whether Milton intended for.

[Christos]

Readers to sympathize with Satan.

[Mark Gagdon]

Romantic poets like William Blake and Percy.

[Christos]

Shelley admired Satan as a heroic figure who defied tyranny.

[Mark Gagdon]

Blake famously remarked that Milton was of the Devil's party without knowing it.

[Christos]

However, Christian scholars like C.S. lewis argue that Milton never meant to glorify Satan, but rather show how seduct.

[Mark Gagdon]

Reductive evil can be.

[Christos]

By the end of Paradise Lost, Satan's.

[Mark Gagdon]

Character deteriorates both physically and morally.

[Christos]

He begins as an imposing figure, but.

[Mark Gagdon]

Gradually transforms into, you know, lesser forms, a toad, a cherub, and then finally a serpent. After corrupting Adam and Eve, his speeches lose their grandeur and he becomes consumed by self deception. Milton's portrayal of Satan remains one of literature's most enduring depictions because it captures both the allure but also the downfall. He's a being who embodies humanity's greatest flaws, pride, ambition and inability to reconcile with failure. While Paradise Lost elevated Satan to produce, you know, literary prominence, later works continued to explore his character in new ways. Writers like Gauthier who wrote Faust and this idea of the Faustian bargain. Lord Byron, who wrote Cain, portrayed him.

[Christos]

As a cunning tempter or a philosophical figure questioning divine justice.

[Mark Gagdon]

But it wasn't just literature that kept Satan relevant. There's, you know, a lot of pop.

[Christos]

Culture around this time that brings Satan.

[Mark Gagdon]

Into a new light. You know, there's shows, you know, literally like Lucifer, Al Pacino creates the devil's advocate, you know, this charismatic lawyer and you know, humorous portrayals in Constantine, you know, obviously Tenacious D, the legends shout out to them. South Park. These portrayals often lean into irony to subvert expectations by making Satan relatable or even likable. So from John Milton's depiction of Satan brings us into the modern day where you have, you know, generations of, you know, the 70s and the 80s being.

[Christos]

Known as the Satanic panic, where you.

[Mark Gagdon]

Know, you have this large Christian population in the United States that are terrified of, you know, Satanists, like corrupting their children, which I mean, could happen, I guess. Like I've talked to some people that apparently, you know, Bob Hamer, apparently or no, is Mike Cadella that apparently saw some Satanists in a, in a mansion somewhere in New York. I don't know. But the Satanic panic doesn't come out of nowhere. It's the culmination of, you know, centuries of fear and fascination with the devil and witch trials and you know, all this kind of like, it's almost like neopaganism where people are looking for good and evil and you know, afraid of this, you know, ever looming fear. So the roots of the Satanic panic can be traced back to the 80s with publications of a book called Michelle Remembers. Written by this Canadian psychiatrist, Lawrence Pazder.

[Christos]

And his patient, who later becomes his.

[Mark Gagdon]

Wife, suspect Michelle Smith. The book claims to uncover repressed memories of satanic ritual abuse that Smith had.

[Christos]

Experienced as a child.

[Mark Gagdon]

Michelle Remembers became a bestseller, smash hit. And despite its dubious claims and you know, some people disputing the corroborating evidence, it tapped into a growing anxiety about child abuse in America. I don't know, I've never heard of this book. Michelle Remembers. It's interesting that that's kind of what kicks off the entire thing.

[Dave]

Yeah, interesting. Oh wow. I mean, crazy cover. I mean that's wild. A year long contest between innocence and evil. Oh, I'm absolutely gonna read this. But apparently it's disputed, I guess.

[Mark Gagdon]

Can you google like, like, you know.

[Dave]

Truth, like see if there's like any.

[Mark Gagdon]

Any consensus on the, the veracity of this. So by the 80s there was an increasing awareness that child abuse, specifically sexual abuse, was more prevalent than previously thought. And this realization coincided with societal change that were putting, you know, stress on traditional family structures. More women were entering the workforce, which meant more children were in daycare. And this is what one historian calls a powdered keg of anxieties combining fear.

[Christos]

Of abuse and discomfort of entrusting children to strangers.

[Mark Gagdon]

Oh, that's interesting. So by if women are now working.

[Christos]

More and more and they're taking less care of their children, they're more generally anxious.

[Mark Gagdon]

And then they hear these stories of like, the most evil thing ever, like Satan is taking your kids. And that is going to create, you know, this cultural fear around Satanism by.

[Zach]

Not watching your own kids.

[Mark Gagdon]

Just the idea that your kid is at some daycare all day and you're at work and then you see something on the news, it's like, our Satan is coming for your kids. It's like the ultimate fear, right? And so it just like, grips the entire American psyche for a specific generation. That's interesting. So the spark that ignites the powder keg comes in 1983 in Manhattan Beach, a parent accused an employee of McMartin.

[Christos]

Preschool of abusing their child. And what follows was a snowball effect of allegations and investigations that become the longest, most expensive criminal trial in American history. Local police send letters to 200 families.

[Mark Gagdon]

Whose children attended or had attended McMartin, asking them questions, you know, about their kids and this potential abuse. They brought in therapists to interview the children, often leading using leading questions. These interviews unearth wild claims of animal sacrifices, levitating employees, and secret tunnels beneath the daycare. Despite the lack of physical evidence, the.

[Christos]

Allegations spread like wildfire.

[Mark Gagdon]

Soon, similar cases pop up all over the country. The media latches onto the stories, and.

[Christos]

Now there's a full on public hysteria.

[Mark Gagdon]

1985, Geraldo Rivera claimed on national television.

[Christos]

That There were over 1 million Satanists.

[Mark Gagdon]

In the United States in a highly organized secretive network. As the panic spreads, it takes on.

[Christos]

A life of its own. Therapists begin uncovering repressed memories of satanic ritual abuse in their patients.

[Mark Gagdon]

Police departments across the country start training officers to recognize signs of ritual abuse. Even the FBI gets involved. And they would later conclude there was.

[Christos]

No evidence of widespread satanic conspiracy.

[Mark Gagdon]

Of course they would, dude. Feds, right? The allegation becomes crazier. Some claimed that Satanists were infiltrating all levels of society, from daycare workers to politicians. There were stories of human sacrifice, cannibalism, breeding programs. One psychiatrist wrote in a medical journal that there was a hidden holocaust. The panic wasn't linked to the United States only similar waves happen in the uk, Australia, New Zealand, and becomes a global phenomenon. While a satanic panic is unfolding in real life, Hollywood is churning out movies.

[Christos]

That reflect and fuels the fears.

[Mark Gagdon]

So they come out with the Exorcist and the omen. But the 80s, it takes it to a new level.

[Christos]

Angel Heart, Devil's advocate, portrays Satan as.

[Mark Gagdon]

This manipulator who's able to blend seamlessly into human society.

[Christos]

So by the mid-1990s, the satanic panic.

[Mark Gagdon]

Largely subsides and investigations fail to turn up, you know, evidence of widespread satanic abuse. And, you know, this McMartin case becomes one of the most high profile cases ever to end in an acquittal or drop charges.

[Christos]

Wow. The recovered memory therapist who fueled many.

[Mark Gagdon]

Many allegations was discredited. But the impact of the satanic panic lingers. No longer just a religious concept, Satan is a real boogeyman in the cultural.

[Christos]

Imagination coming to get your children. And in the wake of the Satanic.

[Mark Gagdon]

Panic, depictions of Satan in pop culture take on a new look. Some embrace the over the top nature of the panic, turning Satan into this almost like, campy figure that you see in South Park. Some take a more nuanced approach, like you see in Lucifer. Satan owns a nightclub that helps, you know, solve crimes. This portrayal taps into the long standing tradition of Satan as this complex character. That is fascinating. I never really knew anything about this satanic panic McMartin case.

[Christos]

I had heard of it, but I.

[Mark Gagdon]

Never actually looked into it. So at the same time, some groups.

[Christos]

Reclaimed satanic imagery as a form of political protest.

[Mark Gagdon]

For example, the Satanic temple uses Satan.

[Christos]

As a symbol for rebellion against religious authoritarianism.

[Dave]

Have you ever seen this?

[Mark Gagdon]

This is interesting, like, where people, and specifically like conservative, more religious states will like kind of blur the lines between church and state. So like, they'll have like a big Bible in front of like the, you know, capitol building in their local state. The Satanic temple will say, hey, if.

[Christos]

You'Re going to have a Christian statue.

[Mark Gagdon]

In front of the capitol building, we want a satanic statue as well. And so they're not actually Satanists. They just antagonize Christians by pretending to be Satanists.

[Zach]

Okay.

[Mark Gagdon]

And so then they just put up like, you know, Satan statues at the capitol building.

[Christos]

Like if you search it, like, you.

[Mark Gagdon]

Know, Satan statue or like Baphomet, like capitol building, you'll see like pictures of, you know, this satanic figure, like popping up. It's kind of funny, to be honest with you. But if it is separation church of state, you kind of got to respect the game, right? That's how I feel.

[Zach]

I mean.

[Dave]

I mean, it's hilarious.

[Mark Gagdon]

Like, if they're actual sadness, that's.

[Dave]

I don't, I don't vibe with that.

[Christos]

If they're just trying to provoke, then.

[Mark Gagdon]

You almost have to, like, respect it. You're like, oh, that's actually kind of funny. So there you have it. I guess that is the origin of Satan. Starts off in Persia, moves its way over to, you know, Mesopotamia, moves its way all the way up to, you know, the Canaanites, and then gets its way into Judeo Christian values. And you have, you know, the Jewish version of.

[Christos]

Of Satan that exists in the Torah.

[Mark Gagdon]

And the Jewish Bible and then moves all the way up to Christianity where you have like this adversary.

[Christos]

Then in Revelation, there's a war between.

[Mark Gagdon]

The good guy and the bad guy.

[Christos]

You have this fallen angel that comes.

[Mark Gagdon]

Through in Dante's Inferno and you see this guy as like the ruler of hell. You get a depiction of him that comes from, you know, Greek mythology, becomes Pan and becomes like this almost like, you know, Tumnus looking. And then you have John Milton's Paradise Lost, which then depicts kind of the whole story in like a very beautiful, well written allegory that then everyone can attach themselves to. And then that brings us into the modern day where you have, you know.

[Christos]

Satanic fear that then takes it out of this theological little vessel and into.

[Mark Gagdon]

Just the homes and, you know, hearts of all American people that are now terrified of Satan.

[Zach]

Also, you've heard, like using it as kind of a term of endearment.

[Mark Gagdon]

Kind of.

[Dave]

What do you mean?

[Zach]

Oh, you devil.

[Christos]

I have.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagdon]

But I imagine that's probably just like. Like you're a troublemaker or a flirt. Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah, you're trouble, right?

[Christos]

Like you're flirting me.

[Mark Gagdon]

Like you're like a little. Yeah, you're a little cheeky flirt, you know.

[Zach]

Right.

[Mark Gagdon]

And because you're so trouble, you're the devil. Not only your trouble, you're. You're evil incarnate. Right, but who says that? Has someone said that to you?

[Zach]

Not to me.

[Christos]

What old girls are you taking?

[Mark Gagdon]

Actors.

[Zach]

That is the vibe of girls.

[Mark Gagdon]

Henrietta. 90 year old woman. Are you taking down Bea Arthur stuff like that? Yeah, what the hell. Yeah, you devil. You've been watching I Love Lucy. Yeah, you gotta stop watching that, bro.

[Zach]

Trying to talk like laundromat kind of chicks.

[Mark Gagdon]

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, but there you have it. That's the devil. Stay away from him. Know your enemy. And thank you guys so much for. For listening. I appreciate it. I'm curious what you guys think of the devil. Has he always been here? Or is it maybe some type of complex literary metaphor that's been assembled over time across cultures and across religions? Maybe we'll never know.

[Christos]

Hopefully we don't.

[Mark Gagdon]

Or actually, maybe we do. Hopefully we go to heaven. Then we can all figure it out.

[Zach]

Well, you wouldn't know if you're in heaven.

[Mark Gagdon]

If you're in heaven, I'm sure you can ask, like, yeah, what was up with that whole Satan thing?

[Zach]

And they send you right down there for asking.

[Christos]

No.

[Mark Gagdon]

You think that's how.

[Zach]

I'm not messing with that.

[Mark Gagdon]

No. I mean, I would ask, and then God is just like, what?

[Zach]

Hey, don't talk about that.

[Mark Gagdon]

He'd be like, who is that? I'm like, satan. And the Bible's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, no, that was the whole thing. If I wasn't good, I'd go to hell. He's like, what's hell? Like, wait, you're saying everyone's here?

[Dave]

He's like, yeah.

[Mark Gagdon]

And he turns around, Hitler's behind him.

[Dave]

I'm like, what the.

[Mark Gagdon]

That would blow my whole mind. But anyway, thank you guys so much for tuning in to religion camp. Appreciate you guys for being here. Check out campgoods.co. check out the Mark Agnon for tickets.

[Dave]

And peace be with you.

[Mark Gagdon]

If you've made it to the end.

[Unknown]

Of this episode, you are clearly someone who understands that beneath every historical event.

[Mark Gagdon]

Lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered.

[Unknown]

You're the type of person who knows that real history is more fascinating than any fiction, and we deeply appreciate that about you. I'll be honest, that's exactly why I personally invite you to sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter that goes beyond the surface of historical events. We dive into the stories that textbooks never told you, the secrets that challenge the course of nations, and the forgotten.

[Mark Gagdon]

Tales that deserve to be remembered.

[Unknown]

Let's continue this journey of discovery together. Take the conversation from your headphones into your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History. Because every day holds a secret waiting to be revealed. Thank you for being part of our historical journey.

[Mark Gagdon]

We'll see you next time.