The CIA Asset Turned Cult Killer: Charles Manson Explained

Summary

Podcast Summary: Camp Gagnon - "The CIA Asset Turned Cult Killer: Charles Manson Explained"

Release Date: March 18, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves deep into the enigmatic and dark life of Charles Manson, exploring the possible connections between Manson, his notorious cult, and the CIA's clandestine MK Ultra program. Drawing insights from Tom O'Neill's investigative work and the Netflix series Chaos, Gagnon presents a narrative that intertwines history, conspiracy, and the chilling transformation of Manson from a troubled youth to one of the most infamous cult leaders in history.

1. Charles Manson’s Early Life

Mark Gagnon opens by painting a grim picture of Manson's upbringing. Born on November 12, 1934, in Cincinnati, Ohio, to Kathleen Maddox—a 16-year-old mother struggling with alcoholism and neglect—Manson's childhood was marred by instability and abuse.

"Little Charles comes out into the world with no dad, a mom who’s checked out, and a life that's already a dumpster fire from day one." (00:00)

Gagnon highlights how Kathleen’s neglect led to Manson being passed between relatives and even rumored to have been traded for a pitcher of beer, showcasing the severe neglect he endured.

2. Path to Crime

As Manson grows, his early criminal behavior emerges. By age five, he’s involved in a gas station robbery, and his adolescence is spent alternating between various juvenile detention centers due to theft and other minor crimes. These environments further hardened him, teaching him survival skills but also embedding a path toward future violence.

"By 1954, he's 20 years old, gets a little taste of parole, thinks he's going to get his life together, but reality has different plans for him." (15:11)

3. Arrival in San Francisco and Formation of the Manson Family

In 1967, a 32-year-old Manson arrives in the burgeoning hippie capital of San Francisco amidst the Summer of Love. His scruffy appearance and guitar-playing persona allow him to blend seamlessly into the counterculture scene. Manson begins to preach his own twisted ideology, attracting a following of young, vulnerable individuals seeking purpose and belonging.

"He's got this wild, crazy energy. He's spouting rants about love and the end of the world, and people actually stop and listen to him." (24:00)

4. Influence and Manipulation

Manson's charismatic influence catches the attention of Dennis Wilson, the drummer from the Beach Boys. Wilson invites Manson and his followers into his affluent Pacific Palisades home, providing them with resources but also creating dependencies. Manson leverages these connections to further his control, blending music, love, and manipulation.

"Dennis Wilson introduces Manson to Terry Melcher, a big-shot music producer. Manson believes this is his shot at fame, but it ultimately leads to his downfall." (27:28)

5. Helter Skelter and the Murders

Central to Manson’s ideology is the concept of Helter Skelter, a predicted apocalyptic race war inspired by his interpretation of Beatles' lyrics. Manson convinces his followers that by committing heinous murders, they will ignite this chaos, allowing them to emerge as the surviving elite.

On August 8-9, 1969, Manson orchestrates the brutal murders of seven people, including actress Sharon Tate, in Los Angeles. Commanding his followers to kill indiscriminately, Manson’s manipulation leads to a spree of violence that shocks the nation.

"He sends his followers to destroy everyone in the house, believing it's the start of Helter Skelter." (45:29)

6. The Trial

The subsequent trial captivates the public as Manson and his followers become media sensations. Manson’s erratic behavior, including threats and bizarre outbursts in court, transforms the proceedings into a spectacle rather than a straightforward legal battle. The prosecution, led by Vincent Bugliosi, presents overwhelming evidence, leading to the conviction of Manson and his followers in 1971.

"By January 25th, the verdict drops guilty. All of them are sentenced to life in prison, cementing their infamy." (71:21)

7. Conspiracy Theories and MK Ultra Connection

Mark Gagnon introduces a provocative angle by exploring the alleged connection between Manson and the CIA’s MK Ultra program—an actual historical program aimed at mind control through methods like LSD. Drawing from Tom O'Neill’s book Chaos and other sources, Gagnon discusses theories suggesting that Manson may have been a product or casualty of these experiments, potentially making him an unintentional tool for governmental agendas.

"Is it possible that the government turned Charles Manson into a weapon that then spun out of control?" (59:47)

Gagnon refers to figures like Jolly West, a psychiatrist involved in MK Ultra, who coincidentally crosses paths with Manson at the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. This intersection raises questions about whether Manson’s manipulative abilities were influenced or enhanced by secret governmental experiments.

"Manson’s parole officer, Roger Smith, worked at the same clinic and may have been complicit, allowing Manson to operate with minimal oversight." (72:07)

8. Conclusion

Mark Gagnon wraps up the episode by summarizing the tragic trajectory of Charles Manson—a man whose troubled beginnings, combined with charismatic manipulation and possible external influences, led to a legacy of chaos and brutality. The discussion emphasizes the thin line between victimhood and villainy, the power of influence, and the enduring fascination with Manson’s story.

"Charles Manson’s entire MO is just to send the world into chaos. He is just an agent of chaos." (71:28)

Gagnon leaves listeners pondering the complexities of Manson’s life and the broader implications of governmental manipulation and societal vulnerabilities.

Notable Quotes

• Mark Gagnon (00:00): "Charles Manson, one of the most evil, terrifying, despicable human beings ever walked the face of this big blue planet."

• Mark Gagnon (24:00): "He's got this wild, crazy energy. He's spouting rants about love and the end of the world, and people actually stop and listen to him."

• Mark Gagnon (45:29): "He sends his followers to destroy everyone in the house, believing it's the start of Helter Skelter."

• Mark Gagnon (59:47): "Is it possible that the government turned Charles Manson into a weapon that then spun out of control?"

• Mark Gagnon (71:21): "By January 25th, the verdict drops guilty. All of them are sentenced to life in prison, cementing their infamy."

• Mark Gagnon (71:28): "Charles Manson’s entire MO is just to send the world into chaos. He is just an agent of chaos."

Insights and Conclusions

Mark Gagnon's exploration of Charles Manson's life reveals a man shaped by neglect and abuse, who harnessed his survival instincts and charisma to build a destructive cult. The possible ties to MK Ultra add a layer of conspiracy, suggesting that Manson's influence might have been exacerbated by external forces aiming to destabilize societal movements like the hippie movement. This episode underscores the profound impact one individual's manipulative abilities can have, especially when intersected with larger, shadowy governmental agendas.

Final Thoughts

For listeners intrigued by the convergence of history, psychology, and conspiracy, this episode offers a nuanced examination of Charles Manson's legacy. By intertwining verified historical events with speculative theories, Mark Gagnon provides a thought-provoking narrative that invites further exploration and discussion.

Transcript

[Mark Gagnon]

If I wanted to kill somebody, I'd take this book and beat you to death with it. And I wouldn't feel a thing. Charles Manson, one of the most evil, terrifying, despicable human beings ever walked the face of this big blue planet. But what was his early life?

[Christos]

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[Mark Gagnon]

Like what led him to creating this despicable cult that murdered seven innocent people in Los Angeles? And was he a part of the CIA's top secret MK Ultra program? I'll be honest, I didn't know a ton about Charles Manson. I've obviously seen some interviews with this crazy guy in court. But after Tom O'Neill's book, chaos became a Netflix series, I have become absolutely, absolutely captivated. So I wanted to do a deep dive just to learn the history of this infamous and evil man. And yes, we get to the bottom of this MK Ultra thing. It is all very, very strange. So if you are interested in stories of the weird, the evil and the bizarre, this episode is for you. So sit back, be like the wind, and welcome. What's up, people? And welcome back to camp. Yes, today we're talking about the infamous Charles Manson. Thank you so much for tuning in. My name is Mark Gagnon and welcome to my beautiful tent. This is a show I, you know, affectionately called Tent Talks. I don't talk to an expert. I don't talk to some genius. I don't talk to some criminal, someone with a crazy life story. I talk to my dumbest friends. That's what I do. I explain the most interesting, fascinating topics from the Internet to some of the dumbest people I know. But today there are no dumb people. Well, except Christos. But Christos isn't dumb. He's just Greek. And you at home, you could be my dumb friend if you want to. Many of you are probably smarter than me. To be honest with you though, I just happen to have access to Wikipedia. Today we're going to be talking about Charles Manson. Obviously. There's a very popular Netflix series that is out called Chaos. It's not really a series, just an episode based off of the book by Tom O'Neill. Chaos. It's a fascinating book analyzing the true story of Charles Manson. If truth is a thing, what is truth? Right? As Pontius Pilate might say. Tom O'Neill basically dedicated 20 years of his life to doing research on one specific topic. It is the life of Charles Manson and how his upbringing, adolescence in the 60s was basically intersected with the CIA and their mind control experiments known as MK Ultra. At one point this was a long standing conspiracy theory that drove people on the Internet crazy. But now it seems like it's been confirmed. The MK ULTRA was a real program that went on what the fruits of that program were unsure and Charles Manson was a part of it. There's also a lot of other crazy stuff with Charles Manson. He was like friends with the Beach Boys. He was like a musician, he murders people, he starts a cult. Like it's like insane. The courtroom trials are like it wild. There's a lot of stuff that I don't even know. A lot of the research for this specific episode has been done by my friend Zach, just a good old, good old country boy that put together some information for me that we are going to be learning together. Alrighty, Charles Manson. Now before we jump into this, I also want to point out a couple things. You can see here on my head, on my giant skull. I tried to buy a hat at a thrift store yesterday and I tried on like two different hats. Just didn't fit my head. My head is that large in circumference, full of nothing, mostly just like bile or something. And yeah, none of the hats fit. It's pretty disappointing. Sick hat too.

[Christos]

But these fit.

[Mark Gagnon]

These fit me. Yeah. And they fit many people because they have an adjustable back. And so if you're interested, you can go to Campgoods Co. Campgoods Co. Put the link in the description, pick up some gear. It's a brand new clothing brand of hoodies and shirts. I guess it's more like merch right now. It's merch at the moment, but will eventually be a full on brand that'll compete with the likes of Louis Vuitton, Coco Chanel. You know, we'll be in Fashion Week eventually, but for now we're just on a beautiful e commerce site, Camp Goods. Also, I'm on the road. I'm going to be touring all over the contiguous United States as well as Canada. So throughout this summer you can come see me doing one one hour exactly of stand up comedy. Once it hits 59 minutes and 59 seconds, I'm saying the last word and I'm leaving the stage. One hour. If it goes any more, I will charge you extra. But come out and see me on the road. A bunch of dates are going to be announced by the time this episode is up. So go to themarkagnon.com and check out some tickets. After every show I'm hanging with everyone. Gonna be, you know, just chopping it up, chatting, you know, maybe buy me a drink, tell me some stories, go get dinner, you and I, whatever you want to do. I mean, I'll be in your town. Let's go skate. Actually, I would like to play soccer or skateboard in any city that I go to. So let me know if that's an option. All right. Charles Manson. Christos. You know about this guy?

[Christos]

A little bit.

[Zach]

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[Mark Gagnon]

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[Christos]

It's not just for celebrities.

[Mark Gagnon]

So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Zach]

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[Mark Gagnon]

What did he do?

[Christos]

He led a cult.

[Mark Gagnon]

What even is a cult? Right? Let's see. I think he led a cult. Charles manson. Born on November 12, 1934 in Cincinnati, Ohio to a woman named Kathleen Maddox. Kathleen is not the most put together gal. She's 16 years old when she has them. She names him Charles Miles Manson. At first she calls him no name Maddox. That's right. She couldn't even be bothered to pick a name for her one and only boy. She's 16 years old. She's also not the most put together woman as you can imagine. She's a mess. She's not baking cookies for young Chuck. She's out drinking, stealing stuff, running with shady guys. Yeah, there she is. Kathleen Maddox. Just. That's all right. She's not bad looking a way a wayward woman in her own right, you know, she's not, she's not doing Great. She's. She's not a. She's. She's not a great mom, but a lot of people have bad moms and they don't become, you know, psychopathic killers. And no one really knew who Charles Manson's dad was. Kathleen claims that it was some dude named Colonel Walker Scott. That's a crazy name. Colonel Walker Scott. Is that his first name? Colonel, or is that. Is. Is that like what. Or is that like a status?

[Christos]

I don't know.

[Mark Gagnon]

Walker Henderson Scott from Omaha. Nice. From Kentucky.

[Christos]

Senior. So it means there's a junior, but.

[Mark Gagnon]

There'S not a third. That would be Charles Manson.

[Christos]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

And apparently he's just like a random laborer that she, she met. You know, he was laying down bricks and he popped a brick in there, and we got Charles Manson, and this guy's long gone. He's out of here, doesn't pay a cent. And there's even talk that she was, you know, a prostitute at some point, allegedly. So it's a total mystery. No one really knows. Little Charles comes out in the world with no dad, a mom has checked out, and a life that's already a dumpster fire from day one. So he's living in some, you know, crappy apartment in Ohio. Kathleen's chugging beers and hanging out with her latest boyfriend. And the story begins. Fast forward a bit. Kathleen is over it. She doesn't want this kid slowing her down. She's got big dreams, and Charles Manson is getting in the way. So she's passing them off to anyone who's going to take care of him. Grandma, aunt, whatever. And she's basically just being like, yeah, I'm not going to raise you at all. She's got her own problems. It's crazy. There's even a rumor that she once traded him to a waitress for beer. Can we get a fact check on that? Look, look that up. That's a crazy. That's a crazy rumor. I mean, very sad. I mean, again, I don't want to sympathize with Charles Manson here, but this is a tough go of it for sure. So, yeah, he's getting traded around for a pitcher of beer. I mean, if you've ever been to a bar that sells beer by the pitcher, you know, this is not even a good. A good place to be traded, you know what I mean? Oh, wow. From Reddit. Charles Manson's mother once sold him to a waitress for a pitcher of beer. His uncle retrieved him some days later.

[Christos]

Damn.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, that's a tough look, right? I think that Is kind of also like the story here a little bit. Like with every serial killer, there's probably like a parent that also deserves to get thrown in jail forever.

[Christos]

Yep.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right. Like, like again, I don't have any empathy for people that commit atrocious acts and murder people in cold blood. That's not good. And I don't like to get political on the show, but I'm going to stand on that. But furthermore, if also you raise a kid and you are severely negligent and you're trying to sell them for alcohol, you should probably also just get thrown at the bottom of prison. Yes, right. Like what? Like this is crazy. So again, up until he starts doing bad stuff, I feel a little bad for old, old Chuck Manson, you know, and it gets worse. 1939, when Charles is five, she decides to rob a gas station with her brother. Kathleen, that is, she's swinging a ketchup bottle like a baseball bat and she gets caught. Typical, right? What a woman know about hitting a baseball bat. If maybe the, the cashier was pitching underhand, she would have got a chance. But she gets caught, thrown into prison, and Charles is shipped to go see his aunt and uncle in Bel Air. And this is the beginning of the show called the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. I mean, if it was. If imagine it wasn't Will Smith was Charles Manson. I mean, that would be wild. No, he gets shipped to see his auntie and uncle in West Virginia. Very different version of that show. Yeah, Fresh Prince of West Virginia. His uncle is like a hardcore old school type dude who thinks that the kid is soft. He decides that old Charles Manson needs to get toughened up because he cries a lot. He makes Charles wear a dress to school in order to toughen it up. Tough him. Toughen him up. Kind of like a Boy named sue situation.

[Christos]

How does that toughen him up?

[Mark Gagnon]

Because it's like Boy Named Sue Johnny Cash. You've heard the song, have you?

[Christos]

I have not.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, it's a great. I can't believe you've never heard it. Basically you name your boy Sue. And because the dad's like, I wasn't able to be in the picture, the dad, I forgot in the song why he couldn't be around. But dad was like, I can't be here to raise the kid, so I'm gonna name him Sue. And so the kid goes, his whole life being like, why did my dad name me Sue? I've been getting the kicked out of me. I've been getting beat up. I've been going through so Much. Then he finally sees his dad, and he's like, why the did you do that? And his dad's like, because I wasn't there to teach you how to be a man. So I gave you a hard name that was gonna teach you to man up on your own, build your character. Yeah, it sounds good, but it rhymes, all right? You make it sound like it's a way worse thing. Anyway, she gets out of jail after a couple years, and she links back up with her son Charles, kind of. She's still just, like a disaster. She's dragging him through sketchy towns, crashing in cheap motels with her, you know, friends, not clients. And maybe around, like, eight or nine, he's watching her stumbling drunk, seeing the world through this blurry, angry lens, like in this, you know, motel they're staying in. So he starts to steal small stuff at first. Candy, coins, just to kind of feel like he has control over something. And then pretty soon, it snowballs even worse. He's breaking the stores, stealing bikes, getting nabbed by the cops. And then this is where things take a dark turn. At 13, he lands in a reform school called the Gibalt School for Boys in Indiana. It's supposed to fix him, but it's more like just a. Like a jail cell. It's just like a holding cell for kids that are wayward. So now he's stuck in this school with a bunch of other angry, you know, troubled kids and a bunch of strict rules that he can't stand. So after 10 months, he flees. He just runs away. He runs back to his mom, but she's just, at this point, like, completely destitute. She looks at him and basically says, like, hey, I can't even take care of my own life. I definitely can't take care of you, so I'm not your mom anymore. At 13, he escapes the school, goes back to his mom, and she's like, sorry. So now he's just homeless, sleeping in alleyways, stealing food. And then the system snags him again that he gets caught doing some other crime, gets picked up, and then sent to the Indiana Boys School, tougher, meaner, and locked down. Even more strictly, he's surrounded by bigger kids, rougher fights, and guards who are straight up, just, like, abusing the children. He's small, barely 5 2, with these dark eyes, messy hair, but he's scrappy. He does this basically up until he's 17.

[Christos]

Also, are any of these the schools that he went that Jeffrey Epstein also went to with?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, this is one of the things I wanted to point out. So he. I don't know when in this entire saga, it's while he's young, he ends up getting sent to Omaha, Nebraska, where Nick Bryant told us, as Nick Bryant told us infamously, about the Franklin scandal that also occurred in Omaha, Nebraska, that allegedly. Big alleged, because this is not confirmed, that they had connection to a place called Boys Town. And Boys Town, back in that time was a hotbed of sexual abuse, allegedly, as some people might want to point out. I don't believe that. That's absurd.

[Christos]

Not only does he have terrible mother, but he's also being abused.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, for sure.

[Christos]

I thought we're trying to make excuses.

[Mark Gagnon]

For Charles Manson up until the bad stuff he does. I feel bad for him.

[Christos]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

But everyone has free will. Everyone has their own autonomy to do what they would like to do. So then by 1951, Charles Manson breaks out again out of this facility that he's at in Indiana, steals a car, takes off with some buddies, and the feds find him having stolen a car. Cross state lines, you know, that's illegal. So now he's bouncing between these, like, juvenile, like, detention centers. Virginia, Ohio, he's just going up all over, piling up more charges. By 1954, he's 20 years old, and he gets a little taste of parole. He's finally free. Okay. He's not under the tutelage of his abusive, drunk mom. He's no longer in these prison facilities. So he's like, you know what? I'm gonna get my life together and just do the normal thing, all right? He marries a woman named Rosalie. At 20 years old, he has a child, Charles Manson Jr. Which is a tough name. Apparently, that guy's still out there. He's, like, still rolling around the world with that name.

[Christos]

I never thought to change it.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, he probably thought it, you know?

[Christos]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

But also, I wonder if there's a point where, like, it's kind of interesting, like, because everyone you meet is like, oh, this is Charles Manson's kid. And then they meet you, and you're like, yeah, my name is Charles Manson Jr. Oh, wow. He died in 1993, apparently. Wow. How did he die? Charlie shot himself. Whoa. Along a section of the eastern Colorado state line.

[Christos]

It's a rough life.

[Mark Gagnon]

Dang. I mean, like, some of these, like, just generational curses are just, like, so sad. Yeah. You know, like, you just live your life and your dad is just a psycho serial killer cult leader, and then you have to deal with that. But he's doing it because his mom Was a piece of. It's just like, whoa. So, spoiler alert. He has a kid, though, and had. Had a kid. Yeah, I guess. Well, yeah, dude, that's right. Because he died in, like, 2017. Whoa. So that's basically the story. He just lives a normal life and has a good time. Psych. He's stealing cars, doing a bunch of crime, you know, just being a psycho.

[Christos]

Who had the rougher life. Charles Manson or her son, would you say?

[Mark Gagnon]

I would say. I don't know. I don't know enough about his son's life. I don't know enough about Charles Manson's life, to be honest with you. I mean, I'm just reading about his mom being a piece of shit.

[Christos]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

But I feel like his son is a tougher time because his dad is an actual serial killer psycho, whereas his mom is obviously abusive and evil, but kind of. She's more of a. She's a victim of her own circumstances as well. Whereas, like, Charles Manson is like an actual deranged psychopath that is now also a dad. Right. Which is crazy. So, yeah, that's. That's basically his life at this point. He's got a kid, married, and then still committing crime, and then he gets jammed up again, back to prison, and the next 10 years of his life are basically just, you know, California, Washington, prison cells. Prison cells, prison cells. And prison at this point is not even a punishment. He spent most of his life at this point in prison. You know, like, he's just a prisoner. And then 1967, Charles Manson's 32. He spent 17 years, more than half of his life in prison. No family, no school, Just a rap sheet with a bunch of, you know, crimes on it. Short guy, wiry. What was his final Height? Was he 5? 2, like, by the time he, like, hit adulthood. And he's got this crazy spark that apparently is, like, very captivating to people. Wow. He topped out at 5:2. So, yeah, he's a short dude that spent most of his life in prison with, you know, degenerate parents and now his kid. Maybe it's actually good that he was in prison while his kid was young because, like, I feel like it's better if you're. If your dad is Charles Manson, that he's in prison and not raising you. I don't know. And, yeah, he's got this, apparently this intense kind of charm is how people have described it. He knows how to read a room, how to survive. 1967, he's paroled again, stepping into a world that's about to go nuts. The hippie explosion has begun. Drugs everywhere. He's got no cash, he's got no plan. But he's got the ability to survive. And a psychotic brain that wants to just be in the mix. What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because you are a grown child. 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I mean, they have, you know, handled thousands and thousands of cases, recovered billions of dollars for their cl, and now they are targeting the ultra processed food giants of the world. Okay, so if you or your child has been diagnosed with one of these diseases that I mentioned before, you may have legal options. They have helped thousands of families seek justice against these big corporations and they are ready to fight for you as well. So if you are interested, go to for the people.comgagnon. that's right. That is f o r the people.comgagnon. if you're interested in potentially hearing more about the way that these companies can be affecting you and your health and the health of your family and how you may be entitled for compensation because of that. Now I do have to disclose. This is a paid advertisement. Now let's get back to the show. So this guy, at this point, 32 years of his life, he's a disaster. Ditched his mom, bounced around, locked up, violent Gets married, has a kid, goes to prison and is there for an entire decade. And then this is where it gets interesting. This is the first chapter where things start to take off. He goes to San Francisco in 1967. The streets are packed with, you know, hippies, a bunch of people rejecting the war, Vietnam's doing its thing and all these people are like, hey, let's just love each other. And Manson is right in the middle of the whole thing. So he's in San Francisco and now he's getting tangled up in the Hollywood web. That's all about fame, music, power. The air smells like bad weed and incense. There's a, you know, just a vibe of like, freedom. Anything is possible. You can love whoever, you know. Drugs are flowing, LSD is on the streets big time. Weed is everywhere. People are smoking up a storm and the city's alive with music, weird art. And into this chaos strolls a 32 year old, freshly out of prison, Charles Manson, looking like a scruffy little drifter, which just so happens to be the exact look that's popular at the time. You know, like if he got out of prison in like the 30s, they'd be like, what the hell is wrong with this guy? But he got out of prison at the time where looking like this is chill as hell, you know what I mean? Like he was like, you know, in the mix. He blended in perfectly. He's got a guitar on his shoulder and he's ready just to, you know, party it up, get to, get to business. He's not just some square showing up in a suit. He's one of them, right? He's been locked up for a few years, so he's not clueless. He's got street smarts, he knows how to survive. He knows how to talk fast, how to charm, how to read people. And in this hippie paradise, he starts to preach. Not like some boring church guy. He's got this wild, crazy energy. He's spouting rants about love and the end of the world. He's on his guitar singing these little songs and people actually stop and listen to him. And Manson doesn't just get like some, you know, he's not just some random street preacher for a long time. He starts pulling people in, especially young women. Yeah, and these are just young girls, runaways out in California looking to make a new life for themselves. And you know, maybe their parents kicked them out or they're just sick of the, you know, this boring straight world and they want to go party and have a good time. And Mansome sees them coming and he's got this, like, creepy, manipulative ability to just prey on whatever it is is that a person needs, whether it's love, a family, a purpose. He's able to manipulate and just turn himself into a chameleon for whatever it is that you're going through. So he meets you, he's telling you about the world, how things could be.

[Zach]

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[Mark Gagnon]

Are important, how you are special. And now he's building up this basically, like this connection, this network of people that are all seduced by his charm and his energy and his, you know, ability to make them feel good. Now let's crank it up a little bit, right? This is where Hollywood comes into the mix. One day, Manson hitching a ride, right? Typical hippie. And he's got his thumb out on the highway, and guess who picks him up. Dennis Wilson. Never heard of that name.

[Christos]

No.

[Mark Gagnon]

Infamously the drummer from the Beach Boys. A great band. For the record, I never really got into the Beach Boys. I obviously knew, like, the classics, like, wouldn't it be nice like those songs, right? And I heard some of them. I actually listened to Pet Sounds front to back recently. Unbelievable. Amazing album. One of the best. My buddy David Sanchez put me onto them. And, yeah, I'm a little late. I mean, probably 65, 70 years too late. But, dude, they're good. They're very, very good. Bad at discerning, though. They have an inability to understand if people are demented psychotic killers. So this guy, Dennis Wilson picks up Charles Manson. And you know Dennis at this point, he's a star. He's living in this beautiful house in the Pacific Palisades. He's partying with this cool crowd, and he digs Manson's vibe. He meets this guy and he's like, yo, this guy Charles Manson, he's an interesting dude. Dennis hears him play the guitar, listens to some of his, like, freaky songs, and he's like, yo, this guy is wild. And so what does he do? He invites Manson and his whole ragtag crew of, you know, random women to crash his place. And Dennis isn't just being nice, all right? He's into this entire counterculture thing, right? He's into the. Very much like the hippie freedom movement, you know, drugs, free love, weird music. And Charles Manson is him. He's all of those things. At that time, Charles Manson is doing drugs. He's into the weird love. Like, he's completely like. Like, epitomizes the time. So as a result, him and Dennis Wilson become buddies, they hit it off, and Manson's strumming tunes, dropping his wild rants. And Dennis is just kind of, you know, on drugs, just nodding off, like, yo, this guy gets it. The Beach Boys even recorded one of Manson's songs. Cease to Exist, though. They tweak it into, quote, never learn not to love, and they slap their name on it. Crazy. Manson's pissed about that. He wants the credit, but for a minute, he's in the game. So the Beef Boys are literally biting Manson's tracks. I mean, Manson has music out there. You ever heard it?

[Christos]

Yeah, we've played some.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, yeah? Who do we play it?

[Christos]

Joey Avery.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, is that what it was? Yeah, yeah. Shocking. Or maybe it was with Kristoff and Luke.

[Christos]

Oh, it was not bad. Not. Not bad.

[Mark Gagnon]

Unfortunately, kind of a hit. This is where it gets even weirder. All right? Dennis Wilson introduces Manson to Terry Melker. This, like, hotshot music producer guy who's a big deal. Terry, he's the son of Doris Day, if you ever heard of that name. The super famous actress from a bunch of old movies. I don't know anything about her. I just. I've heard the name Doris Day before. But this guy Terry, he's got connections all over Hollywood. He's produced hits for the Birds, works a bunch of big names. He's got a house on, you know, straight out of like, just like a Hollywood magazine, like a huge mansion. So Dennis brings Manson to Terry saying, yo, check this guy out. Terry's curious, meets Manson, hears his music, sees this weird little, like, following of people around him. And he's not like, yes, but he's also not. No. He's kind of just like, all right, this is interesting. And Manson is on 10. He's, like, absolutely stoked. He's like, yo, this is my moment. This is my shot at fame. Suddenly, Manson's not just a San Francisco oddball. He's brushing elbows with, you know, top tier Hollywood elite. Like, I mean, if you're tight with the Beach Boys, like, that's as far as being in America. Like it's like the Beatles, the Beach Boys. Like, it's like you're. That's. That you're. You arrived. He's chilling at Dennis Wilson's place, partying with like the who's who of Hollywood. And the crew's growing because you can imagine this guy who's like crazy charming, psycho, but also connected to really powerful people. Women are going to be down for that. Susan Atkins, Lynette Squeaky Fromm, Patricia Krenwinkel. They're all in deep calling him Charlie like he's their savior. They're living in this weird bubble, crashing at Dennis's mansion, eating his food, driving his cars. Dennis spends a fortune, some estimate even a hundred thousand dollars just keeping them around, buying drugs and fixing the chaos that they leave behind. But Manson's not just chasing fame, he wants power. These girls are following him, all right, but they're not just fans, they are hooked. He is their drug. He's using everything. He's got sex, drugs, these rants to like twist their minds. He's manipulating them. He'll sit them down and look in their eyes and like spin these stories about how society, society's crumbling and everything's falling apart. But you know, who has the answers? Charlie. He's dosing them with lsd, getting them high, breaking them down until they're basically doing everything that he says. He's basically mind controlling them with lsd. Sound familiar? We'll get to that in a second. So he's talking about love and peace and how everything is, you know, you know, freedom. And then at the same time, he's controlling these people that are, you know, following him, you know, and his, his, his accolades, so to speak. So Susan Atkins, for example, who's this girl, 19 year old runaway. She's, you know, beautiful. Let's get a picture of Susan Atkins. But she's, you know, lost. She's. She's a drifter kind of figuring out life. She's dancing at some height Ashbury gig when he spots her, pulls her in with that, you know, terrifying, creepy stare. And within days, she's a part of the family as he starts calling them or Lynette from She's 18, kicked out by her dad, sitting on a curb when Manson walks up, starts chatting with her and then boom, there she goes. Oh, there they go. The, the Manson girls, the family. I mean, so bizarre. Like it's. Oh, wow. She died pretty recently. Wow. I mean, yeah. Her whole story is going to get a lot darker, as we will find out. So, yeah, this girl Lynette, she sit on the curb and all of a sudden, boom. Manson comes up and says, hey, I will give you a shot at a new family. Your family hates you. I'm your dad now. Don't worry. You will get all the love you need. And he's got this charming gift where he can just get people to believe him to jump on board and to, like, go on his mission and he finds the lonely ones. He's not going for people that have, like, a bunch of connections. Da, da, da. Like, he's not going to try to bring in some, you know, crazy person into his, you know, cult, like some super famous whatever. He's trying to find people that are wayward, that have, you know, broken homes and turn them into, like, his soldiers. And how is he doing it? He's just that smooth, right?

[Christos]

Where do you learn all these social skills? I mean, he was in prison for most of his life.

[Mark Gagnon]

Craziness. I'm glad you bring that up. Some people will say, oh, yeah, he was just in prison. You know, he was. He had to grow up fast. He was kicked out of his house and he was, like, 10 years old. So of course he's going to learn how to survive. He's going to learn how to be crafty. He's going to learn how to make it. This guy is a survivor because it is sink or swim. Or maybe there's a conspiracy afoot. Some people have suggested that Manson's Hollywood big break wasn't some accident, right? Just think about it, right? He's fresh out of prison. He's got no money, no skills, and within a couple weeks, he's parting with one of the biggest musicians of all time. Kind of a fast climb. That's a fast ascent, right? Some people say a little too fast. Manson's parole officer barely checks in on him. He's breaking rules left and right. He's doing drugs, he's partying all the time, and nobody takes him back to prison. Maybe he was allowed to run wild. Maybe his parole officer was told, hey, just lay low, let him do his thing. So this is just a theory, all right? This is just a conspiracy. Not one that I necessarily believe. There's just a theory out there that we could explore that someone, maybe someone big, was pulling the strings. Maybe they saw Manson as a tool, a way to mess with the hippie movement, to test something shady. Yeah, interesting. Just think about it. Right? Back to the story. Manson's riding high for a bit, right? He's got his family about 20 maybe 25, 30 people at this point. They're typically, you know, generally living off Dennis Wilson's generosity. They're this weird tribe of misfits that are all about Charlie's truth. They're preaching this mix of hippie love, but also doomsday vibes, saying that the world's gonna end in a race war that he's calling Helter Skelter, inspired by the Beatles song. It's nuts. But these people, like many cult members do, they buy in. He's got them chanting, sharing everything, food, clothes, even each other. That's right. Free love, baby. Christo, stop smiling, dude. I know you would join this cult in a second, you freaking perv. You little horn dog. But underneath it, it's all about control. He's sleeping with the women, he's pairing them up with each other. He's keeping them loyal. If they step out of line, he's not above smacking them around either. This guy's have his. Got a little bit of an abusive streak. All right, this whole free love thing, this whole peace and flowers. Nope. It is a full blown cult. And it starts to become an issue. Dennis Wilson, Beach Boys drummer, He's getting tired of the mess. His house is trashed, his money is slowly leaking out. And Manson is getting pushy about that music career that Dennis, you know, kind of teed him up with. Dennis tries to distance himself. Manson is not letting it go easy. Remember Terry Melker? That guy, Doris Day's son? That's a bust. He listens to some of Manson's tapes and he visits them at this creepy ranch that they moved into called Span Ranch. And yeah, he's just like, yeah, it's just not good enough. You're not where we need you to be. Terry's just like, not my thing. And he bounces. Manson obviously takes out super well, psych. He's pissed. And he thinks that he's been promised fame and now it's slipping away. Just like everything else in his life. It is gone in an instant. Span Ranch. That is the creepy old ranch where, you know, the whole cult really takes shape. It's this old movie set in the desert. It's falling apart. And it's perfect for a psychotic crew of, you know, misfits and drifters to go live. They're living rough. It's not great. It's not Dennis Wilson's mansion. They're sleeping in shacks, scavenging food. But they've got each other. They're running group sessions now. These, like, trippy, like, drug fueled Talks where he's like, you know, explaining to them like the truth about the universe. And just the whole time he's breaking them down psychologically more and more and more he'll, you know, dose them with acid, playing mind games, telling them that they're special and that if they're feeling the effects, it's, that's, you know, it's because they're chosen. You also gotta also understand, like, at this point people are not doing psychedelics that regularly, like obviously in the 60s, like if you're in California, you can get them. But like a lot of these people are coming from, you know, middle of the country where they're not doing drugs and all of a sudden they're hanging out with this guy having the most insane mind bending experiences they've ever had in their life. He's tying in like Bible verses with Beatles lyrics. The Helter Skelter thing about chaos and blood. The girls are literally calling him Jesus or Satan, depending on the day. And yeah, this guy, he's, while, you know, putting all these people into this psychotic cult, he's sharper than ever. He's building a very serious, you know, death family, for lack of a better word. And up until this point, we've seen Charles Manson from this, you know, messed up childhood to this Hollywood hustle. And now here's the part that made him infamous. And you know, in a pretty disgusting, terrible way. I didn't even realize how messed up this whole thing was. I saw a picture on Reddit of, you know, the, the Tate household and I was like, holy, this is crazy. August 1969, you're in Los Angeles, the city of sunshine. Movie stars, everyone's got a dream. But there's something dark brewing in the hills. Manson's been out of prison for a couple years. He's built his little family out on Span Ranch. He's got his crew, you know, the girls like Susan Atkins, Krenwinkle, Leslie Van Houten and a tough guy named Tex Watson. All brainwashed, all on drugs, all extremely loyal. And they're eating, they're, they're living rough, they're eating scraps, doing drugs all the time. Listening to, to Charlie ramble about the end of the world, you know, normal 60s, 70s hippie stuff. And one day Charlie gets this idea called Helter Skelter where he says that there's a race war coming. Black people versus white people, and he's going to lead out the survivors. I'm assuming he's on the white side. If I had to guess, why Is it always black versus white? It's like such an American thing. Why can't we get Asian versus Mexican? You know, that would be a battle for the ages. I'd watch that one. I would do a pay per view for that. But yeah, Charles Manson, he is. He's gonna lead the. The winners, the survivors out of this race war. So August 8, 1969, there's a fancy street in Benedict Canyon where there's a bunch of beautiful houses, all modern, tucked into the hills. And there's a woman named Sharon Tate, beautiful actress. She's eight months pregnant. She's 26. Wow. I did not realize she was so young. And she's a rising star married to Roman Polanski, the big shot director who I will say nothing else about, who has no other tattered history. Wow, she was beautiful.

[Christos]

She was a piece.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow. She's 26. That is so sad.

[Christos]

And Margot Robbie plays her in some movie.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, really?

[Christos]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, wow. I mean, that's actually good casting, but yeah, she's beautiful. Wow, that's so sad. I didn't realize. And she was married to Roman Polanski.

[Christos]

It's crazy, huh?

[Mark Gagnon]

Isn't Roman Polanski in France right now?

[Christos]

Yep. And why is he in France more?

[Mark Gagnon]

Because America's too strict. And you can't have. He can't do what he wants because.

[Christos]

Some would say justifiably strict on that matter.

[Mark Gagnon]

But yeah, I mean, that's what Roman would say. Roman would say that this is. There's not enough free freedom here in America. But yeah, what's the deal? Allegedly, he's a. He's a PDF. Oh, damn.

[Christos]

All I know him from is from this movie. The Pianist.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's right. Well, I feel like he's like. Everyone's like, oh, he's this legendary actor or legendary director. Oh, he's the most legendary director at one hit. Right Is. How good of a movie is it?

[Christos]

You know what? Roman Polanski movies. Let's check it out.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think this is a worthwhile tangent. Oh, he's still making movies.

[Christos]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's crazy.

[Christos]

But I don't know any of these.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow. I mean, I can't imagine they're getting major distribution. The Pianist, right? Pirates. He made a pirate film.

[Christos]

Oh, he made Chinatown Is Chinatown.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's popular.

[Christos]

It's a really good Neo noir. Yeah. Oh, wow.

[Mark Gagnon]

Macbeth. Oh, he did Rosemary's Baby. I've heard this. I don't know. I did see an interview. I did see an interview recently where Roman Polanski's like, Look, I like young women.

[Christos]

That's crazy.

[Mark Gagnon]

I like young women. That's, that's all men like young women. And yeah, he fled to France after being convicted.

[Christos]

I don't think he got a chance to be convicted.

[Mark Gagnon]

He just fled before he was found innocent. Let's check is what. Is what you were gonna say. Yeah, I'd be curious to know. That's crazy. I did not realize she was married to Roman. Plans. I don't know why that changes this for me. Like, I don't know, like, it just adds like layers more real. It adds layers of like very twisted, disturbed.

[Christos]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Ness. Basically. She's there August 8th with, you know, she's married to Roman Polanski. She's there with her friends, Jay Sebring, a hairstylist. Abigail Folger. Yes, the coffee heiress. And then Wyczek Frykowski, who's a writer. She's also there. There's also an 18 year old kid, Stephen Parent, just leaving after visiting the caretaker. It's a chill night, she's sipping tea, chatting. And then there's something sinister outside. Manson's not there himself. He's back at the ranch calling the shots. He's told Tex Watson and the girls, Susan, Patricia and Linda Kazabian to go to that house and destroy everyone in it. What the hell? He's mad about Terry Melker. Melcher, the producer who snubbed his music dreams. Melcher used to live at 1050 Celio Drive, but he's moved out. What? That's crazy. I did not know that. It was a mistake. He wanted to get his get back at Terry Melcher for turning down his music career, but instead he sent people to the address, but the Tates had moved in. Oh, that's crazy. And this is going to kick off the helter Skelter vision. So around midnight, Tex and the girls roll up in a beat up car. Linda's the lookout. The others grab a bunch of weapons and these four hippies creep up the driveway to unleash hell. Tex cuts the phone lines first so no one can call for help. Ugh. Then here comes Steven. Parents in the car, about to drive off, when Tex spots him and shoots him. He dies. That's the first person to die. Then he climbs over the gate, sneaks in the property, gets in the house. They have no idea what's coming. He busts in, says, I'm the devil here to do the devil's business. JC bring startled but protective steps forward, trying to shield Sharon Tate. Tex doesn't. He hesitate, swings the Gun like a club. Hits him in the face, breaks his nose, starts shooting everyone. People try to escape. It's just absolute mayhem. They push past the attacker, scrambling to the back door. Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenwinkle are on them in seconds. W wrestles with Susan, breaking free lineups, make it to the front door. He stumbles on the lawn. And then Tex shoots him. He dies. Oh, my goodness. He stabbed a bunch of times and left him. I mean, this is like, so brutal.

[Christos]

51 times.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. This is crazy. Abigail makes it farther, nearly reaching the pool. She then gets stabbed a bunch of times. Sharon Tate is inside. I mean, oh, my goodness. This is like they just murder everyone in the house. They wash off the blood, ditch their clothes, head back to Span Ranch. Linda's freaking out because she didn't kill anyone. She just saw what happened. And Tex and the girls are all, like, high off the experience. Manson's waiting. He asks how it went, and he wants to know all the details. He's cool with it. And he says that it's the start of Helter Skelter, the war that he's been preaching about. The very next night, they strike again. This time it's a house in Los Feliz. I wonder, I mean, if he thought that he was trying to get Melcher, if he knew that he didn't get him, and, like, if he just didn't care or maybe he didn't know because, like, the people were like, yeah, we killed, like, you know, two girls and a guy. And he was like, all right, that's probably them. That's good enough, right? Like, I wonder if he was just like, all right, who cares? Next time. The next night, house in Las Feliz, quieter part of LA Leno and Rosemary LaBianca live there. Just regular folks, not movie stars. Leno is a grocery store owner. Rosemary runs a dress shop. They're in bed when Manson shows up himself. This time, not to kill, but to set it up. He creeps in with Tex. They tie up the people and they tell him it's just a robbery. Then he leaves, telling tech Susan Patricia to finish it. I mean, this is crazy.

[Zach]

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[Mark Gagnon]

Crazy. They kill them. They write a bunch of, like, messages all over the fridge and all over the walls. Then they. They shower, eat some watermelon from the kitchen, and then bounce. Two nights later, seven are dead and LA is about to lose its mind. I mean, this is crazy. It also makes you wonder, like, how do you get people to murder for you? You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of an interesting question. Like, you get these people that are, like, wayward drifters, sure. But you get them into your cult and then you get them to kill for you. I mean, that's, like, insane. So now the news has hit all the newspapers, okay? Like, one of the most famous actresses in the world is now dead. And there's a headline saying that there's a ritual slang. There's this hippie culture. They see, you know, these words written on the door. Pig. Then there's the La Bianca place. There's the same thing. More crazy writings. And people are freaking out. They lock their doors. People are buying guns. They start seeing hippies on the street. And people are trying to connect the dots. They're. They don't know. They don't have a lead. And, like, Charles Manson is obviously, like, you know, connected to some famous people. At least he was, so he's not like a household name. So, like, people just don't know what's going on. And this is where it gets weird. So Manson is all this whole time talking about Helter Skelter, this apocalyptic race war where black people rise up, they kill white people, and then Manson's crew is going to hide out in the desert until it's over. Then he claims that he'll take over the chaos. He ties it in with the Beatles White Album, saying that piggies in Revolution 9 was a secret code telling him to spark it. They think that murdering these rich white folks and leaving bloody messages are enough to light the fuse. So the aftermath of these horrific murders are a mess. Cops are stumped. There's no fingerprints, there's no motive. Like these two random groups of people that literally have nothing to do with each other. The family, you know, Manson and his gang, they're sloppy. Linda Kasabian spills everything to a cellmate after getting nabbed for something that had nothing to do with the murders. Susan Atkins brags in jail, telling some hippie chick every detail. And then by December 69, the word has spread and the net was closing in on Manson, Tex and the girls, they all eventually get scooped up and the trial is just insane. I, I bet you it's probably one of the first like, you know, like newsworthy trials that becomes like a sensation. If I had a bet, that's probably one of the first ones. You know, the shaved heads, he's got a swastika carved on his forehead, he's ranting like this mad prophet. They eventually get convicted in 71, everyone gets life sentences and, you know, LA is able to kind of chill and breathe again. Still reeling from the, you know, the, the brutal murders that happened just a few years before. Two nights, seven people died. Sharon Tate, you know, her friends the LaBiancas, all because Manson said do it. Manson didn't hold the knife, didn't kill anyone directly, but he's the name that we remember. Why? Because he was able to turn these lost kids into killers with nothing but his voice. You know, some messages, some charm and maybe some drugs. And the Helter Skelter thing is wild. Like, I don't know if he believed it. I don't know if it was something that he actually thought was going to happen. Maybe it was a lie, maybe it was, you know, given to him perhaps to discredit the hippie movement and the anti war movement. But whatever it was, it worked. And these people bought in and they ended up killing a bunch of innocent folks. And this is where it gets a little weirder. Okay? And this is where some of the, the Tom O'Neill stuff comes into play. MK Ultra. All right, so we've talked about, you know, his messed up childhood, the Hollywood stuff, the murders, the trials. But now here's the kind of the, the back door, some of conspiratorial stuff. Again, not necessarily that I believe this, this has just been compiled and what people are saying on the net. So is it possible that the government turned Charles Manson into a weapon that then spun out of control? Yeah, MK Ultra secret experiments and you know, this creepy connection that just might change how you see this whole saga. So let's go back a little bit, right to 1967. Manson is fresh out of prison. He's in San Francisco as the hippie scene is exploding. Right? We talked about this. He's 32, he's got these, you know, scruffy, he's got his guitar. It's a summer of love. But here's a crazy thing that happens. There's a program called MK Ultra. This is a legit CIA program that ran from the 50s into the 60s. And if you're watching this, there's a good Chance, you probably heard that before, right? This wasn't some like, noble spy mission. This was like the weird, rogue, freaky CIA that they were doing back in the day and definitely not anymore. The CIA wanted to figure out how to control people's minds. Full on brainwashing. And they were doing this through, you know, LSD tests, hypnosis, electric shock, even torture on a bunch of different people. Prisoners, soldiers, regular people that didn't know what was going on. And this might sound crazy, but this is all documented. They are, you know, declassified files. There's lawsuits. There's a movie by Errol Morris called Wormwood that I think talks about some of this stuff. But coincidentally, Errol Morris also does this movie Chaos on Netflix about Manson. And so what does this matter for Manson? Why is this, why is this connection interesting? Because he's walking to the city where this stuff was still bubbling under the surface. The CIA had been at it for years, starting in 53 when they greenlit MK Ultra to fight the Cold War. Worried that the Soviets were already brainwashing people. They dosed hundreds, potentially even thousands of people with acid, sometimes without even telling them, trying to see if they could erase their memories and plant ideas and essentially turn people into like robots. They worked with doctors, scientists. I'm pretty sure they. This is again just another conspiracy tan. They worked with this guy named Jolly west, who infamously was the doctor that saw Jack Ruby while he was in prison. Jack Ruby infamously killed Leah Harvey Oswald, who infamously killed John F. Kennedy. And this guy was like a known on the record doctor that worked within the MK Ultra program. And they were setting up these MK Ultra systems all over San Francisco, New York, Louisiana. And by the 1960s, the program was officially winding down. Or so they say. What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I'm sitting here in my beautiful tent, as you can see, every week, day in, day out. And people always ask, they say, mark, how do I have a tent like that? I want to sit in a beautiful tent and invite a lover, a friend, you know, someone that I appreciate and adore. I want to give them a good time inside my tent. Well, it's easy. Thanks to the good folks [e-mail]. that's right. Bluechew is the original OG brand offering chewable tablets. And what do these tablets do? Oh, I'm glad you asked. They are gonna give you the just a stronger, harder and longer lasting sexual performance. That's right. They're gonna help you pitch a Tent, any place, anywhere. And the best part, it's all done online. That means you don't have to go to a doctor's office and, you know, talk to him, be like, oh, you know, I'm feeling some type of way. Look, this is not for people that are, you know, lacking necessarily. This is for people that want to have the best experience of their life. Whether it's Valentine's Day, birthday, a funeral, who knows, whenever you need it. You never know when you could use bluechew. And we have a special deal for the listeners of this program. That's right. Try your first month of bluechew. For free. That's right, Completely free. Mark, is it going to work for me? Is this. Hey, it's free. Why not just try it? Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank BlueChew for sponsoring this podcast. All right, now let's get after it and let's get back to the show. Let's go a little closer. All right, the. The Haight Ashbury district is the hippie capital. You have flowers, peace, signs, free love. But it's also the petri dish for all the CIA stuff, right? One of the names that keeps popping up. I just said it. That is Lewis Jolly West. This guy is a big time psychiatrist, the master of mind control, and he's neck deep in all the MKUltra stuff. He's the dude who you put in like, like a creepy movie. Like he's like a severance type, right? Brilliant, he's charming. But he's got like this dark side. And he ran experiments dosing people with lsd, studying how it broke them down. There he is, the old, infamous Jolly West. I wonder if he's still alive. There's no way. But maybe he'd be a great guest. We gotta get him on the pod. And yeah, he would dose people with LSD to see how would. How he would, you know, break them down. He even bragged once about giving an elephant 300 times a human dose of acid just to see what would happen. Whoa.

[Christos]

What happened?

[Mark Gagnon]

The elephant. You know how they never forget? This one forgot.

[Christos]

This one forgot.

[Mark Gagnon]

He also died.

[Christos]

Yikes.

[Mark Gagnon]

The elephant, that is. And this is where it gets crazy. So west is working at the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, where he spots, you know, hippies coming in, trying to get help, whether they're, you know, ODing, going through withdrawals, drugs, STDs. And guess who keeps on showing up at this clinic? A guy by the name of Charles Miles Manson. That's right, AKA Charlie. He's out of prison, he's hooked on a bunch of drugs, and he's hanging with his crew of runaways. And he's a regular at this clinic. And maybe, you know, it's just a coincidence that he's going to the same clinic that this guy that's very connected to all the MK Ultra programs is also working out of. But also, you got to think about it, right? Manson's got no job, no money, and he's just got a rap sheet. And all of a sudden he's connected with this guy, Jolly west, who spent years trying to figure out how to work minds with LSD and hypnosis. So Manson is at the clinic. You know, maybe he's there just, you know, working, trying to, you know, get, you know, some testing for an STD or something. He's already tripping on LSD all the time. It's everywhere in 67, right? He's dosing himself, dosing his followers. And then he gets this spooky talent for getting inside people's heads. Prison teaches him some tricks, sure. How to read people, how to survive. But the Family is next level. He's like teaching people how to become killers. Some folks, like the writer I mentioned before, Tom O'Neill, he's dug into this for 20 years. He was assigned the story, like back in the 90s to look into it and didn't turn in the story on time. And then spent the next two decades working on this book called Chaos that came out in 2019. And he says that Manson would have been the perfect lab rat for MK Ultra. Right? The CIA has this guy. He's unstable, he's desperate, he's already a criminal. He's loose in San Francisco. So maybe you could hook him up with some acid. You know, maybe you could get him aligned to, you know, get more drugs if he needs them. Maybe you could, you know, tell his parole officer to kind of chill and not, you know, be on his case and get him back in prison. And why would you want to do this? Well, the hippie movement, why, you know, 1967 is massive. Millions of kids tuning in, dropping out and freaking out the government. Again, the hippie movement is like deeply tied with the anti war movement, which is not great. Can you look up a quote about how they're going to use. What was it like to discredit black people and hippies? Okay, we have the quote. Basically you have this guy. What's his name? Ehrlichman. Yeah, John Ehrlichman. He is the domestic policy chief for Nixon, and he says this in an interview. The Nixon campaign in 68 and the Nixon White House after that had two enemies, the anti war left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black. But by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana, the blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.

[Christos]

Wow.

[Mark Gagnon]

Pretty crazy.

[Christos]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So let's say you're trying to create an agent provocateur within the hippie movement, and you already are doing these MK Ultra, you know, tests where you're giving people acid to see how it's affecting their psyche. And then you meet these drifters that are coming into, you know, your clinic. And Jolly west is there, right? And he's connected with the CIA, and there's other doctors that are there that are tied to CIA projects and, you know, they have a penchant for dosing people with lsd. And then Manson's popping in and out and he's with these girls and he's got, you know, this collection of people, and he seems pretty smart and he's pretty sharp, and he's able to get people to follow him. Is it possible that that guy could be, you know, a potential subject to discredit the hippie movement?

[Christos]

It's interesting that he got drugged, allegedly, by the CIA, and then went and did the same thing to other unsuspecting people.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right. If MK Ultra was done to turn soldiers into puppets, to create, like, the Super Soldier, he basically turned his followers, random drifters that came from, you know, some random town, into murderers.

[Christos]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, you have to be a certain level of psychotic to go murder for no reason. Like, if someone does something bad to you, steals all your money, kills someone in your family and you go murder them, it's like, okay, I think a lot of people could get to that level. Maybe 35, 40 of the population. If some random guy tells you, hey, go kill random people, innocent women, pregnant, like, the most, like, vulnerable people in a society. You have to be mentally deranged to do that.

[Christos]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Just on someone's request, like, to risk your entire life and freedom, like you, I guess you have to just be so bought into the ideology or personally deranged or both. So it seems like he was able to use Whatever he learned, if he was a part of these MK Ultra experiments and, you know, Manson is popping in and out potentially, he, you know, uses what he learned while he was, you know, doing these sessions, goes to Span Ranch and teaches them the way that he was taught, these MK Ultra tactics. All right, here's a freaky little detail. Manson's parole officer, this guy, Roger Smith, worked at the same clinic. Smith's not just a parole guy. He got a PhD, studied violence and was a part of a federal project on drug rehab. He's supposed to keep Manson in line. But Charles, breaking rules left and right, living with a harem, stealing cars and tripping on acid. And Smith's reports are like, nah, he's a good guy. He's fine. Nothing to see here. He's good. Some people allege that Smith was in on it. Maybe, you know, reporting back to someone higher, maybe even watching Manson from afar. So Manson, he's fresh out, right? Lands in the city with MK Ultra ghost. He's at this clinic where CIA doctors are linked and, you know, they're hanging out, working. He's doing acid a bunch, turning runaways into this cult faster than you could believe. His parole is a joke. He's got freedom that no ex convict, especially a violent ex convict, should ever have. And then he turns all of these runaways into killing machines that murder seven people in two days. And yeah, he's cool. Next time they. They catch up to him, they arrest him. He's just chilling, like, just a natural psycho. Or maybe he feels like he's got some leverage. Maybe he feels like he has an angle, okay? But who knows? Maybe Manson is just. He's a, you know, some lucky nutcase who had a negligent parole officer who's lazy and was just showing up at a clinic because it's free and not because he's a test subject. And the whole Helter Skelter thing is just this crazy thing that he made up. But like I said before, maybe there was a concerted effort by the CIA to try to disrupt the hippie movement. Another example, this is Operation Chaos, where the book in the documentary we're talking about gets its name, which is another real thing that basically the CIA spied domestically on activists and infiltrated groups that they saw as a threat to the state. So what if Manson was a Chaos Agent, right? You let him run wild, he's able to turn these lovers into murderers, scare the public straight, and basically be like, hey, this hippie movement is evil and we gotta stop letting our kids be Doing drugs. And, you know, these murders make the news, and then all of a sudden, hippies aren't some cute, you know, peacekeepers. They are murderers that are strung out on drugs. Tom O'Neill, you know, if it wasn't for him, we probably wouldn't have most of this information. He actually found Jolly West's files and learned of Smith's weird leniency his parole officer, and ended up writing about it. But the CIA burned most of the MK Ultra records in 73. Seems convenient. Witnesses are dead, stories that shift. And Jolly west dies in 99. Never telling the secrets. Smith stays quiet. And Manson, he rambled all the way up to the end, right? He was just saying all sorts of crazy before he died in 2017, but never did he say, the CIA made me do it. Interesting. You would think he probably would, right?

[Christos]

If not if you're brainwashed.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, that's a good point. If he's so brainwashed that, you know, he's going crazy, he thinks he's doing, you know, what, you know, the. The Helter Skelter stuff. This, you know, race war that ends all humanity. So the interesting part about this whole thing, you know, beyond the MK Ultra stuff, is how the trial about these, like, gruesome murders turns into this, like, freak show parade, right? And what if that is part of the agenda? If you're trying to discredit the hippie movement, you make the trial front and center and you show how crazy and deranged this hippie is. And by doing that, you're able to now, you know, throw out the hippie movement. Baby. With the bathwater, right? Because most trials, especially up until this point, are pretty boring, pretty uneventful. They're pretty, you know, manicured. The lawyer speaks for the client, and the client doesn't do that much stuff. But that is not the case with this trial, right? Fast forward. Everybody gets arrested. Okay, so then, by July 24, 1970, the trial of the century kicks off at the hall of Justice. Charles Manson, you know, all 5ft 2 inches of him, he's just standing there. He struts in with everyone, you know, all. All the people that were involved in the seven murders, all facing seven counts of first degree and conspiracy. They're all looking at death in the California gas chamber, which at the time was still a method that they used for, you know, execution at the hands of the state. The prosecutor, this guy, Vincent Bugliosi, he's this sharp dude with a mustache that's, you know, he's got this mountain of evidence. He's got the clothes, he's got the testimony. He's got all the people inside the family that are just like basically saying like pleading guilty and yeah, this is open shut case. Pretty easy. They should be able to come in, have the jury deliberate, and then that's it. But that's not what happens. It is a spectacle. And Charles Manson is about to steal the show, right? So day one, he walks in and his head is shaved bald and he's got an X carved directly into his forehead. And like a, like scratched him with a razor, like straight up, just. And when he's asked about the ex, he says that he exed himself out of the world. Was pretty like edgelord, like high school fake deep. And Susan, Patricia and Leslie stroll in the next day and they also have their heads shaved and X on their forehead too. Could you get a picture of that? I mean, that seems pretty crazy. And again, these girls are coming in. They're not just like defendants, they are his disciples. They're parroting his every move. And by the end of the trial, the X morphs into a swastika. So it starts as an X and then he turns them into. He turns the X into the swastika again. The, the media is just eating this up. The headlines are saying like the Manson mad cult. And the world is glued to this, you know, nightmare that's become like this massive, you know, courtroom drama. And you know, Susan starts singing mid trial, like for real. Like, she starts like, you know, singing like a Manson song, like all high pitched and eerie. Patricia and Leslie join in like giggling while they're singing in court after they've murdered like a dozen people at this point, right? The girls, like, they're following him. They're saying that we're not afraid to the judges and to the jurors. And people are like, is this allowed? Like, you know, like, is this, like, what are the rules in a courtroom? And this judge, this guy, Charles older, who's like a no nonsense, like vet in the, in the district, he can barely keep this thing together. The lawyers, they're all scrambling, right? Manson fires his first attorney, this guy Ronald Hughes, because Hughes wants a real defense, right? Thinking that, you know, the trial is about laws, Idiot, Manson takes over his own case for a bit, ranting about Helter Skelter and how the Beatles made him do it. And then, you know, the girl's lawyers aren't much better. This guy, Irving Canarek turns into a filibuster, objecting to everything, dragging it out like he's like, auditioning for, like, the worst lawyer of all time. This thing goes for nine months because this is, like a performance piece for them. Like, this is their chance to, like, get attention, become famous. Like ego, like delusion. It's crazy. This guy, Ronald Hughes, by the way, the first lawyer that Manson fires. He goes missing mid trial and they find his body later in a ditch.

[Christos]

Jesus Christ.

[Mark Gagnon]

How he died, nobody really knows. Could just be a coincidence. Maybe he got into a drug deal gone wrong. Or maybe, you know, Charlie's reach stretched beyond the courtroom. Imagine Charles Manson tells this guy some of the details. He's like, yeah, I was a part of these mind control experiments. And all of a sudden the CIA hears about it and then this somehow get a hold of him and say, like, hey, fire this guy. And then he ends up dead. Manson is glaring at people the entire time in the courtroom, threatening Judge Older on the record, saying, I'll get you. It said that Older started packing a gun under his robe. After that, while he's in the courtroom, jurors are freaking out. They're locked in a hotel for nine months. No tv, no papers, because the press is like a feeding frenzy. And the prosecution got it rough. Bugliosi, he's a bulldog. He's got Linda Kasabian on the stand 18 days straight, spilling every detail. The tech stuff, the shooting. Susan's jailhouse confession backs it all up. She's proud of it. For the record, they finally get, like, weapons, and it's like. It's a slam dunk, right? Manson's defense, he claims that he's a victim. Society made him do it. The murders were, quote, love. And, yeah, the girls try to protect him, saying that they acted alone, that he's innocent. And, yeah, the whole thing is just absurd. So January 25th, the verdict drops guilty. All of them. Seven murders are sentenced to life in prison, no parole. With the death penalty off the table because California did away with it in 1972. But not before Manson's last act. He leaps at Judge Older with a pencil, screaming in the name of Christian justice. Guards tackle him and the girls are screaming. The courtroom is just an absolute. Just frenzy. Everyone's going crazy. What the hell? This must be from a movie.

[Christos]

Oh, traumatization.

[Mark Gagnon]

But still, I mean, crazy. Yeah, that's chaos. That is. Charles Manson's entire MO Is just send the world into chaos. He is just a agent of chaos. So there you have it. That's basically the story of Charles Manson. One of the most. I mean, you could say crazy, evil, bizarre, you know, People to ever exist. A proper agent of chaos, I could say. Was he connected with MK Ultra stuff? I don't know. I gotta watch this documentary on Netflix. I'm gonna check it out.

[Christos]

But it's hard to imagine he wasn't to be able to get away with a lot of the stuff.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, how do you have a parole officer that just doesn't check in?

[Christos]

Right?

[Mark Gagnon]

Or, like, does he get in trouble? Right? Like the, like Charles Manson's parole officer. Like, after seven people get murdered and the entire city shuts down, that guy has to be accountable.

[Christos]

Also, what did Manson tell his first lawyer? Where that guy had to get ice?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I mean, I have no idea. And how did he die? Like, I wonder if they ever did an autopsy or like, figured out how he died. There's a lot more of this that we got to figure out. But all that to say, I didn't really know that much about Charles Manson, to be honest with you, but now I feel like I have a. A better idea. I mean, also, it's just so convenient that, like, they need to discredit the hippie movement that for all intents and purposes is nothing other than, like, you know, people that want to like, bang each other and do drugs, right? Which, sure, you can have your qualms with that, but I don't think these people are enemies of the state. But if they are provoking, you know, or invoking this anti war sentiment, then I could see how that would become problematic, right? And then the fact that right at the sort of apex of this entire saga, you have one of the most violent chaos agents ever shows up on the scene in the place where it's all happening in San Francisco, and then is murdering famous people to get on national news to then. And then he's in this courtroom for nine months putting on this entire freak show to then basically tell people. And then it seems like the hippie movement basically ends after that. Like, not directly like, but it's the end of the 60s. And then, like, it seems like it dramatically shifts. And I wonder if there's a direct fallout where, like, you have agents going and breaking up hippie gatherings, being like, hey, you guys can't get together anymore because what if there's a Manson in here? What if there's another Charles Manson? We got to stop Charles Manson. I mean, that's crazy. I don't know. What do y'all think? Was Charles Manson an MK Ultra agent? Was he tied in? Have you guys seen the documentary? Have you read Tom O'Neill's book because I feel like there's a lot in there that we did not cover today that we might need to do another deep dive on. But I appreciate you guys all for listening. It means the world. Thanks for holding me down, especially as we're, you know, dialing in our content here and figuring out what's best for you. The Camper as always I've been Mark, you can see me on the road coming to your city not as an agent of chaos, but as an agent of love, joy and happiness. You can check out the [e-mail] you can also check out the Merch clothing line, whatever you want to call it. It's on the website campgoods Co. You can get these sick mugs, a bunch of other awesome stuff that we'll be putting there and hopefully coming out with brand new products throughout the year. And I would love for you guys to, you know, to match with me and to put on some sick outfits. Just come to the shows in the camp gear. As always, this has been camp. We will see you guys here every week. You know, typically Mondays, sometimes Tuesdays, Thursdays, Sundays over Religion Camp and many more days in the future. See you there. Peace. If you've made it to the end of this episode, that's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you. You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest, true communication. A highbrowed type of person that understands this. History is not just dates and names. It is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy. From the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revere took his midnight ride from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why, why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for Today in History. Our free newsletter. Today in History brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything, and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History History because history's stories shape tomorrow's world. Thank you for watching the episode. We'll see you next time.