Camp Gagnon – “The Existence of God & Biblical Occultism”

Guest: Larry Sanger (Co-founder of Wikipedia)
Host: Mark Gagnon
Release Date: February 3, 2026

Overview

In this deeply personal and philosophical episode, Mark Gagnon sits down with Larry Sanger, the renowned co-founder of Wikipedia, to explore his remarkable spiritual journey. Once a committed agnostic and philosopher, Sanger recounts how his confrontation with the dark realities of organized evil and occultism—via high-profile scandals and hidden crime networks—led him back to Christian faith in adulthood. The conversation traverses the nature of truth, power, skepticism, biblical theology, the occult’s relationship to religion, and philosophical arguments for God’s existence. Sanger details his intellectual conversion and how systematic inquiry into ancient scripture provided answers reason alone could not.

Main Discussion Themes

• Sanger’s Spiritual Background and Agnosticism
• The Role of Organized Evil and the Occult
• Return to the Bible: Seeking and Testing
• Biblical Apologetics and the Problem of Evil
• Power, Secret Societies, and Ritual Blackmail
• The Contingency Argument for God
• Christianity vs. Esoteric Spirituality
• Advice for the Spiritually Curious

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Sanger’s Path from Faith to Agnosticism

• Early Life: Raised Lutheran, confirmed at 12; faith lapsed after his parents’ divorce.
• Intellectual Turn: By age 15 or 16, realized he “didn't really believe in God anymore” and prioritized truth and reason.
  • “I conceived of myself and even the purpose of my life as being a truth seeker and truth seeking.” (02:41)

2. Neutrality, Truth-Seeking, and Wikipedia

• Sanger links his philosophical commitment to neutrality (in projects like Wikipedia) to his broader desire for truth.
• Critiques biased media and emphasizes the dangers of propaganda.
• Neutrality is tied to “being left free and supported in what we believe…” (03:35)

3. Encountering the Reality of Organized Evil and Occultism

• Epstein & Elite Networks: Sanger’s awareness of organized abuse and possible ritual elements came via news of Jeffrey Epstein and other scandals.
  • “I had no notion that they were organized in any way...I had no idea that it could be at all common or big business.” (03:28)
• Occult Influences: Introduction to figures like Helena Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Albert Pike, and the Freemasons as connected to ritualistic abuse, at least according to some reports.
• Skepticism Remains: Sanger maintained philosophical skepticism, not accepting accounts at face value but remaining open to disturbing possibilities.
  • “I don’t deny that things are possible…if that’s the case, then I don’t actually want to read these books because I want any such doors to remain shut.” (11:57)

4. Turning to the Bible: Not Comfort, But Challenge

• Sanger picked up the Bible as a skeptic, seeking to “test it, in order to challenge it, to dismantle it. But instead…I was shocked. It held up question after question, objection after objection.” (00:54)
• Old Testament Revelation: His conversion happened not while reading the Gospels, but the Old Testament—illumination came from seeing how the New Testament was foreshadowed and contextualized.
  • “When I went over the Old Testament, stuff that, like, gave me new perspective on the Gospel, even before I finished Matthew, I had converted, essentially.” (17:03)

5. Biblical Apologetics and Answered Questions

• Sanger was surprised to find that his hardest questions had been explored for centuries by theologians, with rigorous philosophical engagement.
• “There is a 2000 year old history of thinking about these things. And…it’s not just a matter of…riffing on myths…a lot of times what's going on is answering the hard questions that people have as they read the Bible…” (17:52)
• Search for Truth: He emphasizes not simply accepting, but actively seeking robust answers—distinguishing Christianity’s intellectual tradition.

6. Occultism’s Relationship to the Bible

• “I had not realized how much of modern occultism…can be found in the Bible itself, especially the Old Testament…a lot of…Freemasonic rites actually are intended to be continuations of like Old Testament rituals…” (23:47)
• Symbolism and inversion—many occult practices are presented as corruptions or deliberate reversals of biblical rituals.
• Sanger expresses relief that the Bible does not answer every detail about occult practices—he wishes to remain uninvolved beyond intellectual inquiry.

7. Ritual, Power, and Blackmail

• Organized Power: Secret societies and elite circles use ritual (sometimes criminal) acts as “Kompromat”—mutual blackmail to ensure control and loyalty.
  • “If I’m going to bring someone into my secret society…one way to control people’s behavior is to have this sort of defamatory material against them…” (25:18)
• Sanger is agnostic on the ultimate spiritual efficacy of such rituals but recognizes that participants may believe in their power.
  • “Some people…think that sex rites with children extends life, for example…of course, everybody has heard of the idea of selling your soul to the devil…” (27:30)

8. Evidence, Exposure, and Institutional Complicity

• Opaqueness of such crimes is amplified by secrecy, institutional complicity (legal system), and the unreliability (or deliberate discreditation) of witnesses.
  • “The whole story isn’t being told in the mainstream media and those are the only sources that can be used. On the other hand, any reasonable, hard-nosed researcher has a hard time believing most of the sources…” (36:39)

9. Ritual Evil and the Mirror of Goodness

• Host Mark wonders if widespread belief in the spiritual power of evil rituals implies legitimacy for ritualized goodness.
  • Sanger: “My view is not that I actually became convinced that there is a dark underside…that is spiritually powerful. I didn't actually come to that conclusion. I simply saw that it is possible and backed away…” (39:34)

10. Intellectual and Personal Aspects of Faith

• Sanger recounts a return to a form of prayer or meditation—internal dialogue—which eventually felt like the “presence” of God, though not in a supernatural experience.
  • “I started doing that again very shortly after I started reading the Bible again. But at some point I realized that these were essentially prayers… I felt the presence of God on the other end of the line, so to speak.” (41:30)

11. Philosophical Arguments for God – The Contingency Argument

• Sanger is writing a 650-page book, God Exists, arguing for monotheism through natural theology and scripture.
• Contingency Argument: Everything contingent needs a reason; zooming out, reality as a whole is itself contingent—so there must be a necessary being “outside the universe.”
  • “If we want to say that there is any necessary being, it has to be outside of the universe as we know it…A necessary being must exist outside of space and time…” (59:31)
• Explores also the “principle of sufficient reason,” cosmological arguments, and questions of design.

12. The Problem of Evil and Free Will

• Sanger’s “three horrors”: pain, death, and wickedness.
• Offers a free-will defense: real agency requires the possibility of choosing evil.
  • “We really cannot have freedom unless we had the freedom to do something that you're not supposed to…” (67:14)
• Addresses “natural evil” (pain, death, disasters) as unavoidable in a world of development, limitation, and reproduction.

13. Christianity vs. Esotericism/Occultism

• Critiques spiritual-but-not-religious movements and occult paths as forms of “self-idolization”—attempting to reach God-likeness by personal method rather than through divine revelation.
  • “The whole frame of thinking behind the occult…is continuous with this idea of religious but not spiritual but not religious…and it is basically the aim is to make ourselves into godlings.” (75:03)
• Christian Humility: Contrasts this with Christianity’s stance of humility before a personal God.
  • “That’s why we say soli Deo gloria—so glory only to God…these are only gifts of God and not your own doings.” (83:54)

14. Advice to the Spiritually Curious (or Occult-Enticed)

• Seek objective truth, not just personal wisdom or technique.
• “God reveals himself…We do not undertake some sort of special effort in order to be worthy of being like him. Rather he makes us like him.” (75:03–83:19)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Returning to Faith Through Inquiry:
  “I picked up the Bible not for comfort, but to test it…But instead, I was shocked. It held up question after question, objection after objection.” – Larry Sanger (00:54)

• On Intellectual Tradition:
  “I was just impressed…people asked my questions and really cared about them…and like really went to town on them in great depth sometimes…” – Larry Sanger (17:52)

• On the Occult’s Biblical Roots:
  “I had not realized how much of modern occultism…can be found in the Bible itself, especially the Old Testament.” – Larry Sanger (23:47)

• On Evil Rituals and Secrecy:
  “There seem to be a lot of dirty, dirty cops and dirty lawyers, which is nothing new…but the idea that they’re backing up organized child— that’s not…” – Larry Sanger (09:38)

• On Prayer and Divine Presence:
  “At some point I realized that these were essentially prayers and I felt the presence of God on the other end of the line…” – Larry Sanger (41:30)

• On Christianity vs. Occult Spirituality:
  “God is a single being with a determinate nature… Rather he makes us like him. He sanctifies us, to use the theological jargon, after he saves us.” – Larry Sanger (75:03–83:19)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sanger’s Agnosticism & Early Life: 02:02–03:04
• Wikipedia, Truth-Seeking & Bias: 03:04–03:35
• Confrontation with Evil & Occult: 03:28–11:57
• Bible Reading and Conversion: 15:53–17:51
• Biblical Apologetics & Intellectual Tradition: 17:52–22:01
• Occultism and Biblical Roots: 23:20–24:36
• Power, Blackmail, and Ritual: 25:18–27:30
• Testimonies, Evidence, and Cover-Up: 34:03–38:54
• Ritual Evil vs. Ritual Goodness: 39:34
• Experiencing God’s Presence, Prayer: 41:30–46:29
• The Contingency Argument: 53:42–60:29
• Problem of Evil & Free Will: 61:29–70:37
• Advice on Occult, Spirituality, and Christianity: 75:03–83:54

Conclusion

Larry Sanger’s journey stands as a thought-provoking testament to the power of rigorous questioning—even among the darkest revelations—to lead somewhere unexpected: faith renewed not by tradition or emotion, but by the intellectual fortitude and the historical weight of Christianity’s apologetic tradition. For listeners interested in the intersections of philosophy, power, spirituality, and truth, this conversation offers deep, challenging, and ultimately hopeful insight.

To learn more about Larry Sanger’s developing book, look for “God Exists” (publication date TBA).