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So you think you know Satan? Well, think again. Because today we're diving into Iblis, the Islamic Satan. And trust me, this isn't just a remix of the Christian devil. He's not a fallen angel waging war on God. He's something stranger and maybe more complicated and probably more tragic. Was he an angel, a jinn, a rebel? Or all of the above? Or none of these things? Today, we're going to unpack the Quranic moment that changed everything when Iblis refused to bow down to Adam. No apples or serpents weapons, just pride, fire, and a cosmic standoff that has caused debate and awe for over 1400 years. Some mystics claim Iblis is the ultimate monotheist, so loyal to God that he chose damnation over disobedience. Yeah, I mean, try to wrap your head around that. Anyway, today we're diving all the way into the Muslim understanding of Satan. Shaytan, if you will. So sit back, relax, and welcome to Religion Canada. So good, so good, so good. 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My name is Mark Gagnon and thank you for joining me in my tent, where every single week we explore the most interesting, fascinating, controversial stories from every religion from all time, forever and always. Yes, this is my attempt to understand all religions, and so far it's going pretty good. But there's a lot of stuff to cover. Okay. Like I always say on this show, I don't think you can understand a people without understanding the God they worship. And in my attempt to connect with all of humanity that has ever existed in the past or that will ever come in the future, I need to understand what's going on in their hearts and in their souls. And I have another soul in this room. My friend Christos. What's up? What's going on? Mark? Dude, today we are talking about the one and the only Shaytan. He's known by many voices, the adversary. But in the Quran he's referred to as Iblis. I'm pronouncing that correctly, right? Sure. Now, look, I don't speak Arabic. I was not raised in a Muslim household. I didn't really have many Muslim friends until I went to college. So I just want to preface this by saying I'm not an expert. I just like to do research. My friends and I will collaborate on a bunch of different research topics and we try to figure out what it all means. So in the event that I get anything wrong here or I miss anything, please don't hesitate to drop a comment. And maybe people in the comments will be more informed, but please just keep it diplomatic. But yeah, I just try to understand everything that's going on. And Islam is no different. I'll be honest. A lot of Muslims are trying to get me to revert. I've been getting a lot of comments. People are trying to get me to revert, which I love. That is one of the best branding things that Islam has, is the revert. I think it's so good being like, yeah, because most religions, you convert, right? You convert to Christianity, you convert to Hinduism, Islam, you revert. Because all mankind is already Muslim. You just don't know it. Wallahi. That's what they say, which is just, it's just good branding. Just, just on its face. It's just like a solid, a solid brand. Anyway, maybe it's the truth. I mean, that's what Islam means. It just means to submit to Allah, the one and only God. That is the, the idea in Islam. So when you revert, that's all it means. That's what a Muslim is. There's just one that submits, and there is one that didn't submit. Or did he. He's known by Iblis. Okay? He's the hidden voice that whispers evil thoughts. He's the master of the lies, source of all bitterness. And today we're just going to figure out what exactly this means to Muslims. How do they view the incarnation of evil, the adversary, the wicked one? And how is it different than Christians and what Christians do? Because Christians, we got Satan, you know, but there's some differences and we'll explain that. Christians often picture Satan as like this rebel angel fights against heaven and Tries to steal, you know, God's power over people and, you know, he's very prideful, which there's some, you know, there's definitely some overlap with that. But in Islam, the, the evil one works in a sneakier way. He kind of hides in the background while he kind of tricks people and leads them towards sin. And for hundreds of years, religious experts and theologians and faith teachers have all tried to understand what this evil being represents and what human beings today can learn from this story. So Muslims will call him Ash Shaytan, literally meaning the devil. Another name is Al Adu, basically meaning the enemy or the adversary, which that's where Satan comes from as well, is this Hebrew word for Satan. However, the Quran uses a specific name, Iblis. Now iblis appears exactly 11 times in the Quran, making him one of the most frequently mentioned supernatural beings besides, you know, angels and, you know, Allah himself. And each mention serves a specific purpose in building the complete picture of the spiritual struggle that humanity faces. So Islamic scholars have spent centuries analyzing each appearance and finding layers of meaning that continue to generate new insights about, you know, the problem of evil. What's up, people? Let's take a break really quick because I want to talk to the fellas. Let me ask you something. Are you stuck? Do you feel like you're struggling with work or relationships or maybe your marriage or just feeling like you're not like the, the dude you want to be, just, you know, thinking to yourself, like, man, I should be farther along right now. I just get caught in these cycles where I just kind of lose self control. Well, here's the thing that nobody likes to admit. 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They're sharing accountability and encouragement and actual Tools to help when triggers hit and you're feeling, you know, anxious or alone, Relay helps you feel a little more connected. And you can stay totally anonymous. But for the first time, you're not going to be in this battle alone. I mean, think of it like a gym membership, but with your brain and for your habits and for the future of your relationship, maybe, right? Thousands of men and their families are already seeing some change because the men, their lives are a little bit less stuck. So if you're feeling stuck, check out Relay. Don't wait another month to be the man that you want to be today. And you can break the cycle with Relay. So go ahead and use the code Gagnon. G A G N O N for for a seven day free trial. If you feel like this thing has just got a grip on you that you're not able to let go, that is joinrelay J o I n Relay R E L A Y app A PP camp and use the code Gagnon for a seven day free trial. Don't put it off. Be the man you're supposed to be today. Today. Now let's get back to the show. What your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you this episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas. There's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and Old no. 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee kind of being is this Iblis? How did he come to exist? What drives the behavior? Why does he work so hard to make people do evil things? Islam includes, you know, many different cultures and beliefs, right? Nearly 2 billion people practice practice this faith around the world. And almost all Muslims agree that Iblis is a destructive power. At least that's what he represents. He attracts people who already want to sin and he pulls them towards hell. And this evil being encourages bad behavior and people that he can fool and, you know, especially causing them to become, you know, prideful or jealous or greedy and hateful. Islamic teaching says he can Become invisible or look like any person, except he cannot take the form of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He appears in people's dreams or enters their bodies like a sickness. Muslims also believe he tries to ruin their prayers by making them forget whether they already prayed or causing them to, like, mix up their words or make them stumble. And these seven deadly influences form what Islamic theologians call major sins. So medieval Islamic scholars wrote extensive letters and treatises on how Iblis exploits each of these human weaknesses, developing a sophisticated understanding of, like, psychology and like, moral understanding centuries before modern psychology even really emerged. I mean, they created detailed maps of, you know, how pride will lead to rebellion and how envy can corrupt a relationship or, like, how greed can destroy, like, your spiritual journey, all sorts of stuff. And some of the most famous tricks from Iblis involve quietly suggesting sinful ideas to anyone willing to listen. Arabic speakers even have a special word for these evil whispers, waswasa, which actually sounds like whispering. And classical Islamic psychology developed these theories of how waswasa operates on the human mind. According to this understanding, Iblis cannot directly control human thoughts or control human actions. He can just place suggestions in the mind that feel like personal ideas. And the ability to recognize and resist these whispers becomes a crucial skill in the spiritual development of the Muslim. So some scholars describe different kinds of whispers. You know, some will target emotions or reasoning or distort your memory. And one story told by the Prophet shows how far Iblis will go to interrupt people's prayers. A man came to the Prophet because he had overslept and missed his morning prayer. And the Prophet explained that Satan had potentially urinated in the man's ears. This didn't mean that the Prophet thought literally Satan had done this act. Instead, he was using this image to show that, you know, missing prayer happens because of Satan's influence, not just regular oversleeping. Now, most Muslims understand the story as, you know, symbolic, not literal. But still the idea remains. This hadith illustrates an important principle in Islamic theology called dual causation. So while events might have a natural cause, you know, like fatigue causing oversleeping, they also have spiritual dimensions that believers must also consider. So this approach allows Muslims to address, you know, the practical as well as the spiritual aspects of, you know, these daily challenges. So setting alarms for prayer while also seeking divine protection from these types of distractions, Iblis also controls smaller evil things or beings called shayatan. These creatures don't look like the red skinned horn monsters with like, you know, like a stick that, like, you'll see in like a movie or something. The Quran clearly states that shayatan can be human or jinn. Basically, jinn is like, you think like a magical beings that can, you know, choose to be good or evil. So it's not like it's almost like demons and angels sort of. That's kind of the best analogy for, you know, for Christians. Islamic belief doesn't treat devils like shayatan as completely separate creatures. Instead, humans and jinn become devilish when they oppose Islamic teaching. So classical Islamic demonology describes this complex hierarchy of evil spirits with specialized functions very similar to, you know, Christianity and like Christian grimoires. So some shayatan focus on disrupting worship, and others try to create marital problems. And, you know, others, you know, try to corrupt a business dealing or cause greed. And this sort of systematic understanding really helped Islamic scholars develop these targeted spiritual remedies for different types of temptation. So the concept that humans can become devilish also has some implication for Islamic social life. So it can suggest that evil isn't limited to these supernatural beings, but can also manifest through human institutions or governments or social systems that oppose this type of divine guidance from Allah. Now, this theological position has obviously, you know, influenced, like, the Muslim world and its approaches to social reform and oftentimes political resistance throughout history. And many Muslims will show their faith by speaking publicly against Iblis and refusing to follow him. They do this through a specific prayer. And again, my Arabic is not perfect. This prayer is called ta', aud, which they say before reading the Quran or beginning, like important work. And the prayer basically translates to, I seek refuge in, in God from the devil. Pretty simple, but very clear and effective. Muslims also reject Iblis during the Hajj. And this is basically a pilgrimage that every Muslim should take at least once in their lifetime, if possible, where they go to Mecca in Saudi Arabia. And during this trip, pilgrims perform a ceremony known as stoning the devil, where they actually throw rocks at specific walls in a place known as the Valley of Mina. Now, this ritual remembers a story about the prophet Abraham. Also peace to him. And Islamic tradition teaches us that when Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son Ishmael, Iblis appeared and tried to convince him not to obey God's command. But Abraham refused to listen. Every time Iblis appeared, Abraham would throw stones at him until the evil being sank into the ground and disappeared. Now, in Christianity, we understand a very similar story where Abraham is going to kill his son Isaac. In the Quran, it's never specified which son, but according to Islamic tradition, they assume that it is Abraham's other Son Ishmael, which is just a, you know, an Abrahamic distinction between our faiths. Now, they continue to do this. You can see videos of Muslims during the Hajj. Well, they will throw these stones, and there's, you know, many people that gather around, and then they participate in this ritual. Now, the full Arabic phrase for ta awood is a ahud bilaha min ashe tan rajim. Now, again, don't speak perfect Arabic, but that was my best. And this carries a deep theological significance. By reciting it, Muslims basically acknowledge one that evil exists. Human beings are vulnerable to evil and the influence of evil, and that God has the power to protect against evil, and that by seeking divine protection, you are basically submitting to Allah. And it is both, both necessary and effective. So it does a bunch of things in just a few short words. Now, the stoning ritual involves three pillars representing the three occasions that Iblis attempted to dissuade Abraham from sacrificing his son. Pilgrims throw seven stones at each pillar over three days, totaling 63 stones per person. And millions of people will participate in this annually. We did an entire episode on the Kaaba and on the Hajj, so you can check those out if you want to understand the logistics that go into such massive religious gathering. But literally millions of people will gather to throw these stones. And this represents one of the largest basic collective religious acts against Satan and the rejection of Satan. Now, this ritual creates a powerful communal experience of rejecting evil, as pilgrims from every nation and race and social class participate together in this symbolic defeat. Now, Muslims agree with Christians that Iblis led Adam and Eve out of paradise, but there's a little bit of a difference here. In Muslim stories, Iblis never takes the form of a serpent. Look at a 14th century artwork showing Adam and Eve in Paradise. It pictures Iblis as like, an old man, but a human man. And this human like image reflects how many Muslims think about Iblis overall, right? Christians often say Satan was once an angel who rebelled against heaven. But most Muslims today believe that Iblis never belonged to the angels. They see him as a part of a supernatural group known as Jinn, which are entirely separate beings. And we'll talk more about Jinn soon. But basically, the absence of this serpent imagery in Islamic tradition represents just another fundamental theological difference from Christianity. So while Christian tradition inherited the Garden of Eden serpent from Jewish sources that Christianity built on, Islam presents Iblis as approaching Adam and Eve directly in his own form. And the directness of this story really emphasizes personal responsibility. Humans cannot claim they were deceived by this disguised tempter or that they were tricked. But they must acknowledge that they chose to listen to an entity that they knew to be evil and chose to disobey Allah anyway. Now, it's crucial to understand that Muslims don't blame Iblis for creating all the evil in the world. Yes, he works to trick people into sinning, but he doesn't cause evil to exist outright. Actually, the Quran's version of his downfall shows that God gave Iblis permission to test humans. And this theological position protects the fundamental Islamic belief in God's absolute sovereignty while still obviously maintaining the responsibility that every human being has for their own sins. Evil exists not because God can't stop it, but because it serves a divine purpose in the overall plan of creation. So this understanding helps Muslims deal with the problem of suffering and the problem of evil that obviously philosophers discuss without obviously compromising their belief in God's omniscience or, you know, his perfect goodness. So the Quran describes what happened this way. God formed Adam from earth and breathed life into his body. And then God called on all the angels together and ordered them to prostrate themselves before this new human creation. And Iblis refused this command. God asked him why he disobeyed and Iblis responded, I am made of fire and Adam is made of clay. I am superior to Adam and will not bow for this act of rebellion. God cast Iblis out and put a curse on him. But before departing, Iblis made a request. He asked God to postpone his final punishment. He wanted to roam around earth until the Day of Judgment, when every soul gets evaluated and goes to either heaven or hell, either Jannah or Ja', an, which I'm pretty sure is how you pronounce it. Which I actually found out an interesting thing, I'm pretty sure, and I haven't fact checked this. So if there's any Muslims, you can correct me. I believe that Muslims that are in Jannah, in paradise with Allah, they can actually request, if someone is in Jahannam, they can basically request Allah to pull them into Jannah. So like, if the people or the souls that go to be with Allah, if they request, they can actually basically get people to be pulled out. So if there's any Muslims listening to this and you know, at the end of times, things go a little bit left for your boy. And I should have been Muslim the whole time, my bad. But if y' all are up in Jannah, just you. Y' all got me, right? Yeah. Will y' all just like put in a word With. With. With the. With Allah, Just help me out. It would be. I'm just. I'm just saying if y' all are so inclined, it would really help me out. In the event y' all are correct. I'm just. That's all I'm asking. That would just really help me out. Aligned. Thank you. So anyway, God agrees to this request from Iblis, and then Iblis declared his goal to basically mislead and destroy all human beings except for those that God protects. So God permitted this plan and told Iblis that his followers would join him in hell. Now, his response reveals several layers of meaning that Islamic scholars have analyzed for literal centuries. First, he demonstrates what theologians call corrupt reasoning, which this is basically making logical arguments based on incomplete understanding. This is what women do all the time. He assumes fire is superior to clay because it appears more dynamic and more powerful. But this reasoning fails to consider that God's wisdom in creation transcends his understanding of, you know, these apparent physical properties. Second, Iblis's response reveals the sin of pride, which in Arabic and is known as takabur, which in Islamic tradition is considered the root of all other sins. Pride causes individuals to elevate their own judgment above divine command, above God, which is ultimately not submitting, which is the entire purpose of being Muslim in the first place. And this leads to rebellion against God's will. So this makes pride particularly dangerous because it corrupts the very faculty, which is reason, that humans need to recognize true and good and, you know, make good decisions. So the granting of Oblisa's request to delay this punishment has puzzled a lot of people over time. Why would God allow this evil to continue? Why would. Why would God allow this to happen? And Islamic theologians explain this through several principles. First, it demonstrates God's sovereignty. Even this rebellion served a divine purpose. Second, it establishes the conditions for meaningful human choice. Without the possibility to choose evil, what good moral value would good choices actually have? You know, you can only be considered noble if you could have done something bad. You know, like, no one ever looks at, like a. Like a child, and they're like, wow, he didn't fight that grown man. It's like, yeah, obviously he can't fight. But if there's someone with a ton of power that chooses to be merciful, then it's seen as a very noble act because it is only through his ability to do evil or to, you know, basically exert his power. And doesn't that, you know, the good action can actually be assessed. So there's a ton of lessons that can be learned from this. First, we observe that Iblis doesn't rebel through organized warfare. Like, you know, how John Milton would write about in Paradise Lost where Satan commands armies against heaven. Instead, Iblis just says no. He simply refuses to obey God's command to bow to Adam. And you might ask why God expected the angels to bow to Adam anyway. And the Quran never gives a specific answer to this. And Muslims have obviously discussed this for centuries. So have you ever read Paradise Lost or any of John Milton's work? Basically in Paradise Lost, Satan is instructive. You know, Milton, Satan organizes military resistance and you know, kind of suggests that evil can match good and power and organization. Whereas in Muslim theology they kind of reject this dualistic approach. So Iblis's rebellion is fundamentally parasitic. It can only exist in opposition to good, never as this independent creative force. Now classical Muslim scholarship offers a lot of explanations for why the angels were commanded to bow to Adam or mankind in general. Some scholars suggest that the prostration or bowing down honored Adam as God's representative. The, the khalifa on earth, you could say. Others propose that, you know, it recognized Adam's unique combination of spiritual and, you know, physical nature or his capacity for moral choice that, that the angels lacked. And there's a third interpretation that suggests that the bowing down represents a recognition of divine creativity. So not worship of Adam himself, but acknowledgment of God's wisdom in creating such a complex and sophisticated being. And Iblis's rebellion doesn't necessarily show like a challenge to God's authority. Rather, his actions reveal just arrogance and stubbornness and ego and pride. And Iblis makes no effort to conceal his goal of basically leading human beings to sin. In fact, God deliberately postpones his punishment so that this mission can be pursued. And this teaches a really important lesson that can be found throughout the Quran, that evil doesn't exist because God can't prevent it, but because God consciously permits it. So if you look at Surah 6, verse 112, it basically says, and thus we have made for every prophet an enemy, devils from mankind and jinn inspiring to one another, decorative speech and delusion. But if your Lord has willed, they would not have done it. So Muslims never think of Iblis as God's rival and he never really claims to equal God in stature or power. But despite these obvious distinctions, Islamic ideas about Iblis share some connections with Satan in the Jewish text or the Devil in Christian theology. Actually, some people even think that the name Iblis would which never really appears in any other Sources before Islam probably comes from the Greek word diablos. Now this is what people think basically the Greek word comes that creates the devil or diabolical or obviously if you speak Spanish, diablo. And it serves as a direct translation of the Hebrew word Satan. But still, scholars can't figure out exactly how diablo's turned into Iblis. And this obviously has sparked a lot of debate over time. Alternative explanations connect the name to Arabic roots that might mean despair or confusion. And the linguistic connection reveals, you know, just an important historical relationship between all the Abrahamic religions. Right. The word Satan in Hebrew meant adversary or accuser, again referring to this divine agent who tested faithfulness as seen in the book of Job. Greek speaking Jews translated this concept as diablos, meaning slanderer or false accuser. And the evolution shows how concepts of evil developers not only, you know, across religions, but also just culture and languages. And although mainstream Christian sources rarely mention Satan refusing to bow before Adam, remarkably similar stories exist in some pre Islamic writings. So although mainstream Christian sources rarely mention Satan refusing to bow before Adam, within Christianity it's mostly understood that Satan's fall from, you know, heavenly favor was because Satan was trying to ascend higher than God, that Satan directly challenged God's authority out of pride. So pride is ultimately the common through line. But in, you know, Islamic literature, it's because Satan's pride stopped him from actually, you know, bowing before the creation of humankind. Now there are, you know, similar stories that exist in some pre Islamic writings. So consider the Syriac Christian book known as the Cave of Treasures, which experts date to be written sometime before the Quran. And the book describes God presenting Adam gloriously to the angels before commanding them to bow down. And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been bestowed upon Adam, he was jealous of him from that day on and he did not wish to worship. And he said to his host, you shall not worship him, you shall not praise him with the angels. It is more seemingly that you should worship me because I am fire and spirit, and not that I should worship a thing of dust. And this text explains that God expelled him from heaven for this crime. And there's a similar tale from like 4th century Coptic documents in Egypt where Archbishop Timothy of Alexandria writes about God putting a crown on Adam's head and a scepter in his hand before commanding the angels to bow down. And Satan refuses to do this. Out of his overwhelming pride, he drew himself up in a shameless manner and said, it is more seeming that this human should come and worship me. For I have existed before he came into being. Now, this version describes God ordering other angels to strip Satan naked and torture him, to shame his pride before expelling him from heaven. Now, these other narratives reveal a rich tradition of theological speculation. In late antiquity, Christian communities through the Middle east developed these stories about Adam's creation and Satan's fall, often incorporating elements from Jewish mystical texts and the circulation of such stories demonstrate the interconnected nature of late religious communities or religious ideas from this period of time, where ideas would kind of move across linguistic and kind of sectarian boundaries, through trade routes and missionary activities, etc. So needless to say, what they can all agree on is that Satan is a proud creature who refuses to bow to Adam and ultimately faces God's punishment. And there are many parallels that exist in basically all the Abrahamic religions. That pride is fundamental to Satan's nature. Now, earlier I explained that today's Muslims mostly believe iblis never belonged to the angels. Instead, they think he comes from a group known as Jinnah. And in current Islamic understanding, angels and jinn represent two different types of supernatural creatures. So angels work as God's servants and they are faithful, and they usually don't have the ability to really choose right and wrong. They are agents of Allah. Now, jinn behave more differently and they can be more unpredictable. These beings possess free will and they can make choices, and they can either follow Allah or they can be wicked and lead people away. So the Quran records a group of jinn declaring, among us are Muslims, meaning that those who surrender to God and among us are the unjust. So just like people, jinn can be found in both, you know, good and bad varieties. They exist in the same world as humans, but can stay hidden from sight or change in different forms, including even at times, looking like people. And, you know, whereas in Christianity, you kind of just have, like, you know, angels and demons, and you got good side and you got the bad side. Whereas in this case, you have angels, which are good, and then you have jinn, which are sometimes good and sometimes bad. Now, the distinction between angels and jinn reflects this fundamental theological principle about free will and moral responsibility. Responsibility. So angels created from light are in perfect obedience to Allah and the divine will. They lack, you know, the freedom to really make these types of moral decisions. Now, this makes them, you know, ideal servants and messengers, but kind of removes them from, like, the sphere of moral testing. Whereas the jinn created from smokeless fire occupy kind of a middle position between angels and humans. So like humans, they have free will, but like angels, they also possess supernatural abilities. Now, it is somewhat debated, but many present day Muslims believe that Iblis was a jinn. Early Islamic thinkers didn't all share this feud, though. Actually, the belief that he belonged to angels gained some support during Islam's first few hundred years. During the early 900s, Al Tabari, one of the most respected teachers in early Muslim religious thought, not only declared that Iblis was an angel, but also referenced many stories claiming he once served as a type of, like, military commander. Now, these accounts described how Iblis commanded celestial armies and battles against a group of jinn who had left paradise and went to Earth where they caused a bunch of destruction. And after winning this victory, Iblis became so filled with pride about his abilities, and from this pride came this, you know, arrogance that basically caused him to rebel against God and his refusal to bow to Adam. Now, Al Tabari's position reflects, you know, a broader debate about the nature of evil and responsibility and just kind of what the early Muslim scholars were thinking about. So if Iblis was an angel, a being supposedly created without free will, how could he be held responsible for the rebellion? This is a question that forced a lot of early Muslim theologians to develop a sophisticated theory about the relationship between nature and moral responsibility. And what makes this particularly fascinating is that some of these stories that Al Tabari mentions gives Iblis a different name before his downfall. So he was previously known as Azazil, and the name sounds very similar to Azazel, which identifies a fallen angel connected to a group, the Watchers, in the Book of Enoch. Whoa. So this is all tying into all sorts of stuff. If you don't know about the Book of Enoch. I mean, we've done a few episodes in the Book of Enoch at this point. Right. You should check those out. Basically, you know, the Book of Enoch is a non canonical book that describes basically the Watchers that are, you know, they basically come down to instruct, you know, the humans about combat and magic and all sorts of other skills, and then they eventually have sex with human women and they create the Nephilim. Anyway, it appears that by the early 900s, similar stories to those, like the Book of Enoch maybe had some influence on how these early Muslim scholars were actually thinking and trying to understand what the nature of Satan was. So these similarities again, would just point to the sharing of ideas around the same region around the same time. So the Book of Enoch, while not included in the biblical canon, was widely read in many Jewish and early Christian communities. And it describes a group of angels called the Watchers who go to earth and they teach all sorts of stuff and you can read all about it. I'm sure you guys know about it if you've listened to this show before. And the narrative, again, provides just a template for understanding, like how divine beings can fall from grace and influence human beings. So you might wonder how Muslims could have disagreed about whether Iblis was an angel or a jinn. I didn't mention that The Quran tells his story of falling from grace several times now. As we've discussed, many Muslims today are not in full agreement about whether Iblis was an angel or a jinn. And in the Quran, there's actually multiple stories about, you know, Iblis's fall from grace. But sometimes what the Quran reveals can create a little bit of confusion against, you know, amongst Muslim scholars. So, you know, it appears to support the idea that he was an angel. So in Seraph 1531, it states, so the angels prostrated all of them entirely except Iblis. So this would lead one to say, like all the angels except this one angel. Other passages suggest that he might be a jinn. So Surah 7:12 records him saying, you created me from fire, which we know that the jinn are created from the smokeless fire. What exactly is one to make from this? There's even one passage that appears to support both interpretations simultaneously. So Surah 1850 says, we said to the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrated. Except for Iblis, he was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. So what exactly is happening in this specific verse? Right, the beginning of the verse kind of groups in with the angels. The end of the verse kind of says that he's a jinn. People who believe Iblis was a jinn point to that specific phrase. He was of the jinn. Right. Case closed. They accurately note that the earlier part doesn't explicitly say that he belonged to the angels. So consider this example. The principal told the students to raise their hands. Everyone did, except the teacher. Obviously, the teacher isn't counted as one of the students, just like Iblis might not be counted as one of the angels. And following this explanation, he's viewed as one of the righteous jinn who earned a position in the heavenly council without actually being an angel. So one version of the story says that the angels captured a bliss during an earlier celestial battle, and they raised him amongst the angels while he was young. Although he lived with the angels and kept their company, he was fundamentally different. He was always a jinn, never an angel. I Know, this seems like super technical, you know, Muslim debate, but this is how we can understand what Iblis actually is to the Muslim world. Now, supporters of Iblis being an angel will kind of look at this interpretation a little differently. The Arabic word for paradise, like I said, is Jannah. Some of the most renowned, you know, Muslim religious scholars, including the 10th century legal expert Al Ash', Ari, reasonably argued that the passage didn't mean Iblis belonged to the jinn, but that he came from Jannah, unlike Adam, who was formed from earthly clay. So now his interpretation demonstrates, like, the really sophisticated analysis of language that classical, you know, Muslim scholars brought to this interpretation. So Arabic contains complicated grammatical structures that allow for multiple readings of the same phrase. And it really requires scholars to consider context and consistency and parallels throughout the Quran. So which side is correct? If we follow today's general agreement, then I think if you asked an average Muslim, they would say that Iblis was belonging to the jinn, not the angels. But is it possible that both are correct? Some early Muslim writings suggest that angels in jinn weren't always viewed as separate creatures. So some stories, like Al Tabari, referenced in, you know, around, you know, the 800s, describe Jin as a category of angels. And they say that Iblis belonged to a tribal group of angels called jinn. So among the angels, it was those who were created from fire. Other traditions say that the angels who were the gatekeepers of paradise were called jinn. But then on the other hand, you have 9th century scholars like Al Jahiz who basically made the opposite argument. He divided jinn into three categories. You got the evil jinn called the shayatan, the powerful jinn known as ifrits, and then the completely pure jinn that identified as angels. Again, this has been debated for a long time, but all of this shows that during the first few centuries of Muslim scholarship, some Muslims appear to have accepted the possibility that Iblis could be both an angel and jinn, or just an angel, just a jinn. But again, this concept isn't commonly accepted in the modern day. Eventual triumph of this strict angel jinn distinction kind of represents a broader development of Islamic orthodoxy. So as theological debates intensify and there's different interpretations about acceptance and religious authorities tending to favor positions that provided clear, sort of unambiguous guidelines for belief, that is kind of how we got to where we are today. So for almost 1400 years, Muslim spiritual thinkers and scholars have developed unique and sometimes surprising ways to understand Iblis and his story. So take the early Sufi spiritual teacher Mansoor Al Hallaj who viewed Iblis downfall as a sad story. Not a story necessarily about pride, but some way like a dedication to God. So Al Hallaj basically believed that Iblis refused to prostrate before Adam not because he was arrogant alone, but because of his love for God being so strong. Now understanding this requires knowing that Islam's core belief maybe above anything else, if you don't know anything about Islam, you should understand that it is ultimately above everything else, monotheistic. That is the one sort of sin that is in a way unforgivable. It is strictly monotheistic. Allah is the one and only God. Muslims believe that God deserves worship and that only God is divine. So Al Hallaj basically argues that Iblis commitment to God ran so deep that he couldn't bring himself to bow before anyone else, even though this meant breaking God's command and then getting thrown out of heaven. Now the important point here is that Al Hallaj didn't think Iblis's punishment was unfair. He just simply saw it as the cost of being absolutely loyal. Now Al Hallaj represents one of the most controversial figures in Islamic mystical tradition. And this interpretation is oftentimes radical. And this religious concept is disputed and debated amongst Muslim scholars around the world. And it even, you know, he had this famous declaration, Ana Al Haqq, basically saying I am the truth. And that led to his execution for heresy in 922 A.D. now this interpretation really revolutionized the traditional understanding of Iblis rebellion. So instead of representing the ultimate act of pride and disobedience, his refusal was actually an act of devotion and theological consistency. So Al Hallaj and his portrayal of the Iblis is, you know, kind of sad, but you know, a perfectly devoted monotheist. And it actually influenced a lot of spiritual teachers that came after him. So teachers like Ayn Al Khuzat Al Hamadani basically suggested that Iblis and his evil spirits could be seen as God's workers in a way carrying out God's plan. So they basically separate God's true followers from those who sin and they actually help God by providing some type of, you know, holy counterforce. And this interpretation of evil sees bliss not as the opponent of the divine, but as like an unwitting servant of the divine purpose. So evil becomes a tool for purification and separating those with genuine faith from those who, you know, they kind of waver under the pressure. Now I just want to really highlight here that it's important to understand that these ideas are considered very extreme in modern day Muslim theology. So you know, both Al Halaj and Al Hamadani were killed for holding different beliefs that basically mainstream Muslims rejected. However, their ideas do show a wide range of interpretations that Iblis's story has created amongst the Muslim world throughout the Middle Ages and even later periods. And his story of rebellion has become a way for people to think about questions like free will and basically this problem of evil and why evil exists in the world at all and why a good God would allow these things to happen. And the execution of these mystical thinkers also reflects a broader tension within the early Muslim world and their understanding of orthodox scholarship and kind of mystical innovation. So Islam encourages scholarly inquiry and spiritual seeking and really testing the faith faith, but it also maintains boundaries around acceptable interpretations of these core concepts. So During Islam's first 200 years, a group known as Jabria supposedly raised a challenging philosophical question. They said, if God controls all actions and nothing occurs without God's will or approval, then does this mean that God forced Iblis to rebel? Now, this is not only Muslim scholars that have discussed this. Christian scholars have just said the same thing, right? If God is omniscient and knows all things, then wouldn't he know that Satan would rebel against him? Wouldn't he know that Satan would try to, you know, destroy the world or, you know, commit basically persuade people to commit evil? And we basically, you know, what we know about this specific group, the Jibria, they we basically, what we know about them is from the people that disagreed with them, which makes it difficult to really understand their exact beliefs. Regardless, mainstream Islamic teaching eventually rejected this idea outright and rejected their way of thinking about this problem of evil. And they ultimately accept the idea that people have the free will for God to punish Iblis for his choices. And ultimately all people, you know, are, you know, to blame for their sinful actions. And, you know, them alone, right? They still hold the responsibility for acting wrong. Now, the Jibriya represented an extreme position in early Islamic theological debates about, you know, predestination and free will and the nature of morality. And their name actually divide derives from the Arabic word jabir, which means compulsion or force. And you can almost think of this like, I guess like Calvinists that are very much, you know, within the Christian tradition to be like predestination type people that kind of bend what Christians understand as like free will and who's actually, does free will really exist? It challenges a lot of how Christians acknowledge the problem of evil and how we interact with our God. Now, the mainstream position known as asharism, basically argues that God creates human actions, but humans acquire responsibility for them through their intentions and their choices. Now, if we just take a step back from the world of, you know, brilliant and educated Muslim scholars. Ordinary Muslim folk stories often accept the belief that Satan and his evil spirits could spark amazing artistic creation. So Abu Nawas, one of Islam's earliest and most famous poets, frequently called on Iblis to inspire his writings, particularly in poems that praised drinking and partying and forbidden romance. So when my beloved shunned me, I received no word from him. I called upon Iblis and complained to him, shedding tears of desolation. Obey your Uncle Iblis. To do so is your religious duty. And perfect your unbelief. Commit no minor sin. If you must sin, make it a great one. Whoa. That's pretty crazy. So Abu Nawass really represents this fascinating figure in Islamic literary history. A poet who openly talked about existing with profound religious knowledge and sophistication. And he actually invocated, like trying to channel the devil, basically. And people didn't necessarily see this as devil worship, but rather a literary device that challenged, you know, social convention. People also remember Iblis as, you know, an expert musician. This is the same in, you know, Christianity that, you know, they see the, you know, the. The devil or Satan just. Or Lucifer, rather, had a very, you know, like, almost supernatural, literally musical ability, and so a figure who makes bargains and would give talent to entertainers. So the famous story collection called Thousand and One Nights actually talks about, you know, a bunch of different stories, specifically about Ibrahim Al Masili, who was a skilled musician who apparently learned his craft directly from Iblis. Now, Ibrahim Al Masili was a historical figure who served as a court musician for several caliphs in his area. And his legendary musical abilities led to these folk stories about him attributing his talent to, you know, supernatural sources. And these stories reflect just a broader cultural pattern of explaining, you know, exceptional human abilities to, you know, the spiritual or potentially demonic intervention. And there are stories like this in Christianity, too. There's a guy, specifically, I forget his name, famous, like, blues musician, who apparently did a deal with the devil and learned how to, you know, play the guitar better than anyone else because he learned it from the devil. People said this about, you know, Bob Dylan, all sorts of people throughout the ages that, you know, they gained, like, this amazing artistic ability. Robert Johnson. Robert Johnson, yeah. Apparently he, like, there's, like, a movie, I think, maybe a song called Crossroads where, like, he took his guitar and, like, try to talk to the devil. And it worked. So basically, the link between evil spirits and entertainment in Arab folk culture goes back a ton of centuries. Like, you know, it's not just Christians, you know, Muslims have this same sort of tradition. So just like the Greeks believed in daimons or how do you pronounce it them on demon. Basically like a mysterious sort of spirits that could influence people's creativities. Arabs before Islam thought that jinn or shaytan could be the spark behind artistic works. And the Quran makes a point of stating repeatedly that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not a poet and that its words are not simply poetry. So Surah 36 6, 9 declares, and we did not give him knowledge of poetry, nor is it befitting for him. It is not a message and a clear Quran. So passages like this are commonly understood to suggest that during the Prophet's time, people connected poetry with, you know, a potential power of, like, harmful spirits. Therefore, it became important to create a distinction between, you know, the divine messages from evil inspiration. And the Quran's emphasis on distinguishing divine revelation from poetic inspiration just again reflects the cultural context of 7th century Arabia where poetry held a massive social and religious significance. And, you know, poets would be, you know, spokespersons and historical chroniclers and guides to, you know, different spiritual journeys. And the words carried a lot of power that could basically unite or divide people in modern times. Iblis continues to represent, you know, moral decay and temptation and wrongdoing. However, like all sort of, you know, religious characters, people understand him in different ways. So for more than a thousand years, Iblis represented the struggle between human choice and, and God's commands, between pride and faithfulness, rebellion, obedience. And contemporary Islamic thought has engaged with modern psychology and philosophy to develop new perspectives on a lot of their traditional concepts and, you know, a new twist on an old classic, right? So some modern Muslim thinkers will interpret Iblis psychologically seeing him as a symbol of, like, the ego and the tendency towards pride and rebellion against moral authority. And this psychological interpretation maintains the spiritual significance while making it really accessible to people in the modern day. So the figure of Iblis occupies a really profound place in Islamic thought, right? It represents far more than the simple embodiment of evil, right? And through 14 centuries of Islamic civilization, the story served as a lens through which Muslims have examined the deepest questions of human existence, right? The nature of choice, free will, obedience, the problem of evil, the purpose of suffering, and ultimately the relationship between creature and the creator. So from the Quranic narrative of his refusal to bow before Adam to contemporary debates about psychology and spirituality, Iblis has really maintained like a vital presence in Islamic discourse. And perhaps most significantly, the story really addresses the universal human experience of struggle where every person faces moments of choice where they either choose to do the right thing or, or the wrong thing. Will I be humble and help my neighbor? Will it be prideful and let my ego take over? And I think this narrative really provides a framework for understanding these choices in a really spiritually significant way. And in our modern world, facing challenges that the original Muslim community could never even have imagined. From global warming to AI to, you know, anything really. I mean, this story of the Iblis, I think really can give some, you know, relevant insights, right? This idea of pride being the root of all sin and that at all times human beings should try to resist this desire for pride because pride will lead to jealousy or to anger or to sadness and depression. And I think maybe most importantly, it just really affirms the human, you know, moral agency and ultimately responsibility that all human beings have free will. And we need to use our free will to constantly choose the light and to shun the dark. Now, the legacy of Iblis in Islamic thought points to a deeper mystery, right? I mean, the story reminds us how we live in a universe with, you know, where our choices matter and spiritual forces are real. If you are a Muslim or really if you follow any Abrahamic fish faith, that these things actually exist and that we all live in our day to day lives trying to resist the temptation. And we can actually see this figure who began as God's adversary, in a way serves God's purpose and ultimately fulfills God's ultimate divine plan and really reminds believers of their need for divine guidance and protection and grace from Allah. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the story of Iblis, AKA the adversary, the accuser, shaytan, the devil, diablo, whatever you want to call him. That is how Muslims understand the embodiment of evil. I mean, that was fascinating. There's so many little things that I, I like hearing about the differences between Christianity and Islam where it's like, you know, the, like, even just like Abraham sacrificing his son. I grew up being like, oh, it's Isaac. And then you hear like, oh, wow, Muslims thought it was Ishmael. Like, it's just an interesting distinction. And I want. There's little things like that that I want to learn more about. And then like in Christianity, we know we're taught that like, you know, Lucifer, the devil, wanted to challenge God's authority, that he wanted to become higher than God himself. And then in Islam, it's like, oh, he refused to bow down or to show respect to God's most beautiful creation, humankind. It's just these interesting little theological differences that I wonder, you know, how it, how it causes a, you know, an ideological sort of change in a culture and how people see like evil. They're like, oh, Satan is evil because he, his pride got in the way of him acknowledging a beautiful thing God made. It's just interesting to me. I don't know, it's fascinating. Did you learn anything about the Muslim devil? I think it's important to note that we have more in common then we have differences. I like that. That is a great note. Well, I'm sure the comments will let us know all the differences and things we got wrong. So if you are Muslim and you know, you know much about your faith, you grew up, or maybe you're a Muslim scholar that studies theology. Is there anything I missed? Is there anything I didn't include, anything overlooked that would be beneficial to this conversation? Please drop a comment below. I read all of them and if you're not Muslim, if you're like me and you were raised Christian, you didn't know anything about, about this, what'd you learn? Is there anything you found in your faith background that you can, can connect to this or that you think is similar overlaps? I would love to know what you guys think. We read every single comment. And as a matter of fact, on this episode, if you are the top comment after an undisclosed amount of days, we're gonna get you free merch. That's right. We will get in contact with you. We will send you some merch from the religion camp store. Whatever you want, we will hook you up. Thank you guys so much for being a part of this program. I feel more connected to this community and I love reading your guys comments and I love, you know, know, just connecting with people on the things that matter to them most. Which you know, for many people is their relationship with the creator. Anyway, this has been an episode of Religion Camp. I appreciate you guys for joining me in my tent. As I always say, life is better with belief. And I will see you guys next Sunday. Peace. What's up people? Quick announcement. If you are a fan of Camp Gagnon or Religion Camp, I have great news because we are dropping History Camp. That's right. This is the channel. We're going to be exploring the most interesting, fascinating, controversial topics from all time throughout all history. Right. You probably know about Benjamin Franklin, I don't know, Thomas Jefferson, Nikola Tesla, interesting figures from history and you probably learned about them in school and they were pretty boring. But not here. No. As you know, I was raised by a conspiracy theorist. So I'm going to be diving deep into all of the interesting, strange, occult and secretive societal relationships that all of these famous, influential men from our shared past have. So if you're interested, please go ahead and subscribe to the YouTube channel. 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