Camp Gagnon: The MACABRE John Dee – The Occultist Who Summoned Angels Through Enoch
Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: Christos Papalopoulos
Date: September 4, 2025
Overview
In this captivating episode of Camp Gagnon, Mark Gagnon dives into the extraordinary, bizarre, and often tragic story of John Dee, the legendary Elizabethan polymath who shaped the beginnings of the British Empire, revolutionized navigation, and believed himself in direct communion with angels. Mark traces Dee’s rise and fall, his involvement in espionage, his descent into the occult, and his infamous partnership (and betrayal) by the dubious Edward Kelly. The episode blends historical analysis, dark humor, and thought-provoking commentary about genius, gullibility, and the fine line between the two.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Setting the Stage: England’s Hidden Genius
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Timestamp: 00:00 – 04:00
- Mark introduces John Dee as “England’s smartest man,” a polymath sitting in the world’s largest private library (4,000 books) in the 1580s.
- Dee is described as a “mathematician that believes in magic” and “the Queen’s most trusted advisor who may have been duped by a class con man.”
- Dee is the origin of the signature “007” and possibly the first international spy.
Quote:
“He’s a mathematician that believes in magic. And he’s the Queen’s most trusted advisor, who may have been duped by a class con man posing as a friend.”
— Mark Gagnon [00:00]
2. Early Life: From Prodigy to Scholar
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Timestamp: 06:00 – 12:00
- Dee enters Cambridge at 15 for his brilliance, not out of privilege.
- Travels across Europe, amassing rare mathematical and astrological knowledge, before returning to England to assemble his fabled library.
Quote:
“He’s brilliant at math and he gets into Cambridge at 15… not because he’s like a Nepo baby… but because he’s legit brilliant.”
— Mark Gagnon [09:12]
3. Brush with Danger: Horoscopes, Conjuring, and Star Chamber
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Timestamp: 12:00 – 18:00
- Under Queen Mary I, Dee is arrested on charges of “lewd and vain practices of calculating and conjuring” after casting horoscopes for the Queen and Princess Elizabeth.
- He dodges execution by the help of Bonner, a friendly bishop.
Quote:
“Dee had cast horoscopes of Queen Mary and Princess Elizabeth… The Church and the English Crown were obviously not so cool with John Dee’s little magic trick back in the day.”
— Mark Gagnon [14:45]
4. With Queen Elizabeth: From Astrologer to Empire Builder
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Timestamp: 19:00 – 28:30
- Dee selects Queen Elizabeth’s coronation date using astrology, earning her trust and securing his place as her secret weapon.
- He coins the term “British Empire” and legitimizes England’s territorial claims.
- Dee becomes a one-man think tank for the empire, teaching navigators, hand-picking sailors, and advising on military strategy.
Quote:
“He was hand picking sailors and teaching them navigation stuff... Dee was actually the first guy to coin the term British Empire.”
— Mark Gagnon [22:17]
5. Occult Obsession: Scrying, Angels, and the Birth of Enochian
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Timestamp: 29:00 – 38:25
- Despite scientific fame, Dee’s drive for “divine wisdom” leads him to try scrying—seeking guidance by gazing into crystals and mirrors.
- After repeated failure, Dee records “first contact” with Uriel, an archangel, who begins imparting a "pure divine language" (later, Enochian).
Quote:
“He becomes convinced that if he can just basically get the right technique, he can establish direct communication with angels… He wanted this divine wisdom—and he wanted to talk to God.”
— Mark Gagnon [32:45]
6. Edward Kelly: The Con Man and the Catastrophe
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Timestamp: 38:30 – 51:30
- Enter Edward Kelly: criminal, forger, and Dee’s new business partner in the occult.
- Kelly claims superior scrying ability, quickly assumes role of “angelic translator,” and feeds Dee increasingly bizarre messages.
- The infamous “wife swapping” incident: Kelly claims angels command the two men to share wives (May 22, 1588). Nine months later, Dee’s wife gives birth to Kelly's child.
Quote:
“He says, 'Look, I’ve been talking to angels and they do want me to dog your wife out from the back.' And Kelly convinces Dee that refusing this would be disobeying God.”
— Mark Gagnon [46:00]
7. Alchemy, Royal Intrigue, and the Espionage Theory
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Timestamp: 51:30 – 1:03:00
- Kelly tells European royalty he can transmute metals into gold; the pair travels through Europe (notably Prague) at the invitation of Emperor Rudolf II.
- Mark outlines the theory that Dee used occult pursuits as a cover for spying for Queen Elizabeth, signing secret intelligence with “007.”
- Dee leverages access to powerful courts to collect intelligence under the guise of mysticism.
Quote:
“He may have been using his reputation as this mystical weirdo as the cover… While everyone thinks he’s just this eccentric academic, Dee’s got access to people that most spies would only dream of.”
— Mark Gagnon [1:00:38]
8. Downfall: Betrayal, Ruin, and Obscurity
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Timestamp: 1:03:00 – 1:14:00
- Dee and Kelly’s partnership dissolves amid growing suspicion.
- Dee returns to England to find himself penniless, his library ransacked, and his reputation destroyed; the Queen ignores his pleas for support.
- Kelly dies while trying to escape from prison; Dee dies impoverished, dismissed as a crank despite his earlier achievements.
Quote:
“The only thing that Elizabeth does end up doing for Dee is making him the warden of Christ College in Manchester, where he’s not even really respected by his fellows.”
— Mark Gagnon [1:11:05]
9. Legacy: Cult, Conspiracy, and Cautionary Tale
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Timestamp: 1:14:00 – End
- Dee’s diaries and Enochian system are revived by 19th/20th-century occultists and magicians, including the Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley.
- His 007 signature becomes the inspiration for James Bond and a touchpoint for modern conspiracy theorists.
- Dee’s life is a study in the coexistence of brilliance and delusion, warning of the dangers and necessity of curiosity, documentation, and critical thinking.
Quote:
“It’s a reminder that being smart and being wise are different things. As Mark Twain says, it’s easier to fool a man than convince a man that he’s been fooled.”
— Mark Gagnon [1:19:24]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Dee’s Paradox:
“John Dee is not only a world full of contradictions, but a world where you have one foot in facts and another possibly in the esoteric and the occult.”
— Mark Gagnon [04:30] -
On Occult Practices:
“A scryer can be a number of various objects, really, as long as it has some type of reflection. So a crystal ball, or today even a smartphone.”
— Mark Gagnon [33:41] -
On Being Duped:
“The angels said, give me a raise. Like, it’s crazy.”
— Mark Gagnon [43:59] -
On Dee’s Legacy:
“We know intimate details about John Dee’s life because he treated his diary like a historical record.”
— Mark Gagnon [1:18:35]
Important Segment Timestamps
| Time | Segment | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00-04:00 | Introduction of John Dee and his historical context | | 09:12 | Dee’s precocious genius and acceptance at Cambridge at age 15 | | 14:45 | Arrest and trial for occult practices under Queen Mary I | | 22:17 | Dee’s impact on Elizabeth I and the coining of “British Empire” | | 32:45 | Transition from mathematics to magic—first angelic contact | | 46:00 | The “wife swap” edict and Dee’s capitulation to Kelly’s manipulation | | 1:00:38 | Mary’s theory: Dee as the original 007 and pioneer in espionage | | 1:11:05 | Dee’s return, ruin, and bleak final years | | 1:19:24 | Takeaways about wisdom and self-delusion |
Final Reflections & Lessons
- Curiosity’s Double-Edged Sword: Dee’s relentless appetite for knowledge propelled him to greatness—and into folly.
- The Genius-Gullibility Paradox: Intelligence is no guarantee against being deceived—sometimes it only makes the con more elaborate.
- Importance of Documentation: Dee’s meticulous records preserve his legacy, for better and worse.
- Lasting Legacy: Even after his fall, Dee’s influence echoes in occultism, espionage mythology, pop culture, and the very geography of world history.
Quote:
“Human beings are complicated. You know, we are brilliant but also gullible, rational and superstitious, Christian and loving God, but also occult... powerful but vulnerable. And they all happen simultaneously.”
— Mark Gagnon [1:21:14]
Summary by: Camp Gagnon Podcast Summarizer
For fans of: History, conspiracy, occultism, the Renaissance, and the untold stories behind legends.