The Most Chilling Social Experiment Ever | Universe 25

Summary

Podcast Summary: Camp Gagnon - "The Most Chilling Social Experiment Ever | Universe 25"

Introduction

In this gripping episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves into one of the most unsettling and thought-provoking experiments in behavioral science: Universe 25. Co-host Kristoff joins him in Atlanta, Georgia, to unpack the complexities and implications of John B. Calhoun's controversial study on societal collapse using mice as subjects.

Overview of Universe 25

Universe 25 was an ambitious experiment conducted by John B. Calhoun in the mid-20th century to explore the effects of overpopulation on social structures. Calhoun hypothesized that excessive population density could lead to societal dysfunction, even in the absence of resource scarcity.

Experiment Design and Setup

Calhoun meticulously crafted a utopian environment for mice, providing unlimited food, water, nesting materials, and amenities such as tanning beds and gyms. The enclosure, known as Universe 25, was a sprawling nine-square-foot structure divided into interconnected pens with 256 nesting compartments, capable of housing up to 3,000 mice.

Mark highlights the meticulous nature of the setup:

“They got tanning beds, they got a gym. [11:32]”

Despite the abundance, the crucial limiting factor was physical space, which Calhoun aimed to manipulate to study behavioral changes solely due to overcrowding.

Phases of the Experiment

1. Initial Growth (Days 0-600):

   • Rapid Population Increase: The mouse population began doubling every 55 days, swiftly reaching 620 mice by day 315.
   • Social Hierarchies and Aggression: As density increased, dominant males became hyper-aggressive, leading to territorial disputes and even cannibalism. Subordinate males withdrew from social interactions, and females began neglecting their offspring.

   Kristoff humorously notes the intense reproductive rates:

   “After 100 days they've 500x and yeah, what the fuck. [13:05]”

2. Behavioral Sink and Stagnation Phase (Day 600):

   • Declining Birth Rates: Reproduction slowed dramatically as females ceased mating and abandoned their young, reducing birth rates to a third of their peak.
   • Escalating Aggression: Dominant males continued their violent behavior, further destabilizing the social structure.
   • Isolation of Omega Males: The lowest-ranking males retreated to isolated areas, embodying fear and withdrawal.

   Mark captures the severity of the situation:

   “The colony dwindled to extinction despite abundant resources. [36:08]”

3. Collapse and Extinction (Post-Day 600):

   • Population Decline: The colony eventually collapsed entirely, with the last conception occurring on day 920. Despite the resources, social dysfunction led to the extinction of Universe 25.

Insights and Implications for Human Society

Mark and Kristoff explore the parallels between Universe 25 and modern human societies, particularly urban environments. They discuss how overpopulation and forced social interactions in cities might lead to similar societal breakdowns, citing issues like reduced birth rates, increased aggression, and social withdrawal.

“Universe 25... destabilized a society, led to a behavioral sink and irreversible dysfunction. [36:12]”

Kristoff draws connections to contemporary issues:

“It sounds like a log from one of the day 600. I ate my own young. [25:56]”

They also touch upon the concept of social capital decay, where communities lose shared norms over generations, leading to intergenerational dysfunction.

Criticisms and Counterarguments

The hosts acknowledge criticisms of Universe 25, including:

1. Artificial Environment: Critics argue that the experimental setup doesn't accurately reflect human society since humans can disperse and avoid conflicts, unlike the trapped mice.

   “The critics argue that the artificial setup overstates the inevitability of collapse. [39:00]”

2. Complex Cultural Norms: Human societies possess intricate cultural norms and institutions that might mitigate the effects of density-related stress more effectively than in mice.

   “Human societies with their complex cultural norms and institutions might mitigate density related stress more effectively than mice. [40:16]”

3. Boredom and Social Monotony: The lack of challenges and the rise of social monotony in the experiment could exacerbate dysfunction, a factor that exists in human societies but is managed differently.

   “Elimination of all challenges... likely compound the dysfunction. [40:27]”

Despite these criticisms, Mark and Kristoff argue that the core findings of Universe 25 remain relevant, especially regarding the psychological and social needs of densely populated communities.

Conclusions and Lessons

The episode concludes with reflections on how Universe 25 underscores the importance of addressing social and psychological needs alongside material abundance. The hosts emphasize the necessity of fostering meaningful community connections, engaging in purposeful work, and maintaining mental and physical health to prevent societal collapse.

Mark offers actionable insights:

1. Cultivate Immediate Communities:

   • Building strong, supportive relationships within one's immediate environment can counteract the isolating effects of urban density.

2. Engage in Meaningful Work:

   • Finding purpose and competency in one's endeavors fosters a sense of fulfillment and reduces the likelihood of social withdrawal and aggression.

3. Maintain Physical and Mental Health:

   • Regular exercise, mindful eating, and managing anxiety contribute to overall well-being and resilience against societal pressures.

Kristoff reinforces the idea that intentional effort to create artificial struggles, such as limiting conveniences to foster personal growth, can enhance societal stability.

“Having a sick time. [53:15]”

Final Thoughts

Camp Gagnon masterfully intertwines the chilling outcomes of Universe 25 with contemporary societal issues, urging listeners to reflect on the balance between material prosperity and social well-being. Through engaging dialogue and critical analysis, Mark and Kristoff present a compelling case for re-evaluating how we structure our communities and personal lives to avert potential societal decay.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Gagnon on Behavioral Sink:

  “Calhoun concluded that the overpopulation alone, even without resource scarcity, destabilized a society, led to a behavioral sink and irreversible dysfunction. [36:12]”

• Kristoff on Modern Parallels:

  “This is my mouse. Wet. Yeah. They're like, what are you doing to my mouse wife? Son of a. Yeah. [24:28]”

• Mark on Social Capital Decay:

  “Robert Putnam has this concept called social capital decay... [61:27]”

• Kristoff on Hikikomori:

  “These are Japanese social recluses... sort of the human manifestation of the beautiful ones. [56:03]”

Timestamp Highlights:

• [00:00] - Introduction to Universe 25 and its significance.
• [05:19] - Explanation of John B. Calhoun's experiments.
• [12:06] - Detailed description of Universe 25's enclosure and setup.
• [20:06] - Population growth and early behavioral changes.
• [25:22] - Discussion on infant mortality and maladaptive behaviors.
• [36:08] - Collapse of Universe 25.
• [38:44] - Critics' perspectives on the experiment's applicability to humans.
• [46:12] - Reference to Christopher Ryan's "Sex at Dawn" and its relevance.
• [55:56] - Exploration of Hikikomori and its connection to the Beautiful Ones.
• [61:36] - Social capital decay and its impact on communities.

Closing Remarks

Mark and Kristoff wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to take proactive steps in their own lives to foster strong communities, engage in meaningful work, and maintain personal well-being. They stress that understanding experiments like Universe 25 can provide valuable insights into preventing societal collapse and creating a more harmonious world.

---

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory segments, and non-content sections to focus solely on the core discussions and insights presented in the episode.

Transcript

[Mark Gagnon]

Universe 25, one of the most disturbing, terrifying and controversial experiments ever conducted. Not on human beings, but on mice. What if you put a bunch of mice into an enclosure and give them all the food and water they want, but they're on top of each other in tiny little apartments much like a city like New York, LA or Chicago? What happens? Unfortunately, one researcher discovered that there's societal collapse. Men become aggressive and start to fight each other. Women start to attack their own young, neglect their children, and the birth rate declines. And many researchers over the decades have mapped this to human behavior. Is this where American society is going? Are we entering into an eventual collapse? Well, all that and more will be explored today on this episode of Camp. We will go through how the experiment was decided, how it was set up, what were the factors that went into it? What did the critics say? Why is this not like American or human society? And what can we learn? And how can we change our lives in order to create a more just and peaceful place for ourselves to live? So sit back, relax, and welcome to Camp.

[Sponsor]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of identity theft every five seconds in the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

[Mark Gagnon]

This episode is brought to you by Enterprise Mobility. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals.

[Kristoff]

To technology solutions, Enterprise Mobility helps businesses.

[Mark Gagnon]

Find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road, they want to make sure it's on the road to success.

[Kristoff]

Enterprise Mobility moving you moves the world.

[Mark Gagnon]

Find your [e-mail] what's up, people? And welcome back to camp. We are not in our beautiful, wonderful tent. Instead, we are here outside of a hotel in Atlanta, Georgia. This is take two of this amazing episode we're about to record on Universe 25. Our first take was. Was interrupted.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, it was invaded by injured Tanzanians in their 80s.

[Mark Gagnon]

And I'm sure the people at home are like, what do you mean? How does a podcast get invaded by injured Tanzanians?

[Kristoff]

A menagerie of Tanzanians by a geriatric Tanzanian just recovering from knee surgery.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, here's the clip. And just to give you guys context of what happened, even if raised in less crowded conditions, a little bit more towards you, Mark. Yeah, that's behind. So that's basically what happened in the middle of our recording. The slowest invasion of all time happened.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. And I didn't like how you treated that guy.

[Mark Gagnon]

What do you mean? What did I do?

[Kristoff]

You came and you go, hey, you're up my podcast.

[Mark Gagnon]

I didn't do that.

[Kristoff]

You said, hey, old.

[Mark Gagnon]

I did not do that.

[Kristoff]

Why don't you waddle into someone else's show?

[Mark Gagnon]

That's not. That's not true.

[Kristoff]

This is Camp Gagnon.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's not. Kristoff is doing it.

[Kristoff]

We're not on pbs. You old.

[Mark Gagnon]

For anyone that doesn't know, this is my friend Kristoff. We started. We started comedy in Orlando together and he's on the road with me right now. We're doing shows at Helium in Atlanta. It was a great time.

[Kristoff]

It's been great.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you're going to be on the road with me for a couple more shows.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Indianapolis for show. Austin. And then the ones around New York, like Philly, Connecticut. Hell yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So come on out to a show, but let's get in to universe 25. We got. We got into it a little bit yesterday.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, we did still start from the top.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. But now you know a little bit.

[Kristoff]

But now I know a little bit.

[Mark Gagnon]

Universe 25th of maybe 1 of the most disturbing. And by disturbing, I mean just kind of like morbidly strange.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, it's disturbing. If you. The obvious applications for real people.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

It's all pretty one to one. Like any. Like, you can go, oh, those are mice. It's not the same. And then you start reading it, you go, it's pretty much the same.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Unfortunately, humans are animals.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. No, I trust mice implicitly. I do. I think a mouse. If a mouse is having a hard time, I probably. I probably have a hard time, too.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Facts.

[Kristoff]

You ever see them push the lever for cocaine?

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, yeah.

[Kristoff]

Do you know that if they push the lever and they always get cocaine, it's not that interesting.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. You need variable reward.

[Kristoff]

Isn't that crazy?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

If you push it sometimes and you get blow, you're. But if you do it like. Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah, I get blow over there.

[Mark Gagnon]

Humans are the same way.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mark Gagnon]

Isn't that strange? That's why these. You see people at casinos just like.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, that's why. Yeah. If you just won the slot machine every time, it wouldn't be that fun.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

But if you win sometimes, mostly never, then it's awesome.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

That's why fanduel. Is. No.

[Mark Gagnon]

So this was an experiment for anyone that doesn't know, created by this guy, John B. Calhoun.

[Kristoff]

He do be Calhoun, who we learned.

[Mark Gagnon]

Is not John C. Calhoun.

[Kristoff]

Calhoun the vice president under Thomas. No, Andrew Jackson.

[Mark Gagnon]

Andrew Jackson. Jackson, exactly right.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I knew John C. Calhoun. He was a behavioral researcher who worked at the National Institute of Mental Health during a time when there was a lot of concerns about population growth and urbanization.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Basically you had these cities that were exploding after World War II, and people were just flocking to these urban centers, living in these super densely populated metropolises. And in the mid 20th century, with all this urban, you know, expansion, global populations rising, people were like, how many people are allowed to exist?

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

At what point is it too much?

[Kristoff]

Right. Because if you ever look at a map, like where you go, if the population was as dense as Paris for it's like we could fit everybody in like, Louisiana.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And you're like, oh, so there's plenty of space. And then you're like, no, not really. It's not really how that works at all.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. But people are like, at what point does it all just fall apart?

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So this guy started doing some experiments in the 40s and 50s, okay. With these, this breed of rat called the Norway rat, The whitest of rats.

[Kristoff]

Norway rat. He's like, we're going to do the universe 25. I don't know. What are people from Norway sound like my wife.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's basically it. That's exactly it.

[Kristoff]

I'm a. From a Norway.

[Mark Gagnon]

They, these experiments basically were to illustrate social dysfunction when populations became too dense. And it's not scarcity, you know what I mean? Because obviously if there's scarcity, if you don't have, you know, food and water.

[Kristoff]

That'S not the problem in New York. There's plenty of.

[Mark Gagnon]

You can get. There's food everywhere.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. There's bodegas on a corn.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's a half eaten hot dog in the trash can.

[Kristoff]

There's rats everywhere. You can shoot them with a little pellet gun, grill them over an open.

[Mark Gagnon]

Flame, find the Puerto Rican be like, I can toss this on.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And they probably will.

[Kristoff]

Dude. I used to live near a lot of like Bolivians and South Americans.

[Mark Gagnon]

I've heard of those.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. And they used to make guinea pig on the street.

[Mark Gagnon]

Really?

[Kristoff]

They'd be roasting up a guinea pig right in front of, you know, the M train.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you try it?

[Kristoff]

No, I never tried it. But you know, I'm not against eating a guinea pig. I would eat a Guinea pig.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. The problem is, like, they sound like that. Yeah. I guess it depends who's guinea pig. Right. But it's just. Those are just one of those animals that we just happen to have as pets.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. I mean, like, it's. What's the difference between that and a rabbit? Are. Is none.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Kristoff]

And I eat rat. I've eaten rabbit several times.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And I don't feel.

[Mark Gagnon]

We also had a pet rabbit.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, I had two pet rabbits.

[Mark Gagnon]

Really?

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Kevin and Isabelle.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's not true.

[Kristoff]

I don't remember their names.

[Mark Gagnon]

Really? You don't remember your own?

[Kristoff]

Well, they died when I was like eight.

[Mark Gagnon]

Dude. Our pet rabbit, Cloudy.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Got eaten by a bear.

[Kristoff]

No way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Swear to God.

[Kristoff]

What kind of bear?

[Mark Gagnon]

Black bear. Florida black bear. H. We're going to start a GoFundMe for Cloudy if you guys want to.

[Kristoff]

Florida Black Bear.

[Mark Gagnon]

The GoFundMe raise wars are getting crazy. You.

[Kristoff]

You see, of course, raised like $300,000 because she called someone the nword. And you go, I've been doing this for free. Now I'm leaving money on the table.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Dud Guys. Guys like you just do for the love of the game. So this guy, John C. Reilly. Yes, no, John Calhoun, starts doing these experiments giving all these mice all the food and water they need. They have nesting materials, they have a perfect environment, but they just start getting more and more dense. They just basically lets them just, you know, read as much as they want, and they end up getting so dense that the experiments have to be called off because the environments that they were in weren't able to accommodate.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, they outgrew the labs.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, basically. And these are the early experiments. And he discovered this thing called behavioral sync. And this is a phenomena where overcrowding leads to a breakdown in the normal social behaviors of these mice.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So the mice are normally just doing mice shit, but the second it gets overcrowded, things get off the rails.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So in the early studies, the rats exhibited extreme aggression, neglected their offspring, withdrew from social interactions, and they intrigued this guy, Right, the scientist, he's over here being like, okay, could these patterns offer an insight to how humans would behave in a city environment as well? And so when he starts doing these early experiments, not only is the scientific community interested, all of a sudden, policymakers and the US government as well as global governments also start getting interest. They're like, dude, is this important? Should we take this into account? Yeah, like, if New York gets to 10 million people, will everything just fall apart?

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

So this is where Universe 25 comes in. This is an experiment born out of the desire to basically take the behavioral collapse hypothesis to the logical end. And he basically creates utopia, an environment where there's unlimited food, water, nesting materials, and tries to isolate the effects of overcrowding itself. And it's about, obviously studying mice, but also trying to, you know, broach the philosophical practice of, you know, how societies grow and how they function.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So he get. Creates this environment. It's a. It's like an enclosure. It's. It's worth getting a picture. We can throw one up on screen, but massive. Yeah, It's a, you know, nine.

[Kristoff]

Nine feet.

[Mark Gagnon]

Nine square feet.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And it's divided into four interconnected pins or pens with 16 vertical mesh stairwells leading up to 256 nesting compartments. It can hold thousands of mice.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, I think the max was what, 3,000 or something?

[Mark Gagnon]

3,000, that's.

[Kristoff]

That's its capacity. Not. Yeah, it's interesting. Keep going. But it's like where it starts to. Falls. Fall apart. Isn't even close to 3,000.

[Mark Gagnon]

Way before that.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So the. Each compartment can hold up to 15 mice, and the population never even reached the theoretical.

[Kristoff]

These are like your apartments in Williamsburg.

[Mark Gagnon]

Exactly.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

The unlimited.

[Kristoff]

Probably not Williamsburg. Probably more like, you know, maybe Bushwick or maybe an Astoria.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes. And there's. And there's landlords that come in.

[Kristoff]

There's some scrutiny here. Mice.

[Mark Gagnon]

Don'T worry. There's unlimited food and water, all the nesting materials. They want temperatures maintained at like 68 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, it's perfect mice weather.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's beautiful.

[Kristoff]

It's gorgeous.

[Mark Gagnon]

They got tanning beds, they got a gym.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Everything you need, all the amenities you want.

[Kristoff]

They're doing little mouse push ups.

[Mark Gagnon]

Disease free. They're coming through, cleaning up, poop all day.

[Kristoff]

They clean up the poopoo. And they filtered all them. Anyone who's no sick mice allowed?

[Mark Gagnon]

Nope.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

If you got a cough, you're gone.

[Kristoff]

I was like, what's a mouse cough?

[Mark Gagnon]

And so if you got a little mouse cough, you better hit the brakes.

[Kristoff]

It was like, this was a little paw.

[Mark Gagnon]

Got a little handkerchief.

[Kristoff]

Pardon me, I've just got an awful cold.

[Mark Gagnon]

So it begins in 1968. This is when America's gripped by, you know, Vietnam drugs are going crazy, and.

[Kristoff]

This guy's staring at mice in a big cage. Yeah, exactly. He goes, this is our world.

[Mark Gagnon]

He locks the door.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. He goes, this is just like New York city.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes. Universe 26. Universe 26 is where I'm with the mice. I become one of them.

[Kristoff]

I blend my genetics with the mouse. I become the mouse. I become the uber Mouse.

[Mark Gagnon]

So 1968, he takes four pairs of healthy, genetically robust mice. These are just some of the frumpiest, most robust.

[Kristoff]

Robust. He's extremely robust, thick mice.

[Mark Gagnon]

And he takes them from the Institute of Health and they're introduced to the enclosure during the strive period. This is 104 day phase where they adapt to their surroundings, establish territories and begin fucking.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So that's what they do.

[Kristoff]

I was amazed at just the fuck rate was really high.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh yeah.

[Kristoff]

You realize like, yeah, after 100 days they've 500x and yeah, what the fuck.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, they'd be going buckwho.

[Kristoff]

You know, what I learned recently about mice in particular is that there's no, like, there is like, if they do incest, it doesn't matter that the genetic variability between a mouse that's related to its. To, you know, another mouse and like a non related mouse is so negligible that there's not like, incest doesn't like bear any problems. Whoa. They're just too genetically similar across the board.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's hot as hell, dude.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, so your sister is very.

[Mark Gagnon]

So they don't have any. So mice porn is mice porn.

[Kristoff]

They.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's no step bro.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. If a mouse, if a mouse saw its stepsister stuck in the dryer, would just have sex with it and then it wouldn't even be that taboo.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, not at all.

[Kristoff]

It wouldn't even be a big deal at all.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, there's no, like, what are you doing? It's like, obviously.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Your dog Step Row is probably foreign.

[Mark Gagnon]

Probably. Also for the record, this is the case with humans also.

[Kristoff]

What?

[Mark Gagnon]

It's not. Well, it's not as close as you think. What, so like brother, sister.

[Kristoff]

You can't do that now. Cousin.

[Mark Gagnon]

Cousin is like 2% chance of something.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, it's not bad.

[Mark Gagnon]

But then if you second cousin's like.

[Kristoff]

But then what happens is like, okay, my parents are cousins, I have sex with my cousin. You know, it's like, it's not good. Once you get like multigenerational incest, then you're like really fudgeing with it. It seems exponential.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why is it not good?

[Kristoff]

I mean, have it look. I don't know. I saw a documentary.

[Mark Gagnon]

You got something against disabled kids?

[Kristoff]

Yeah, so I, I saw like a documentary about. I forget where it was, but it was somewhere in England where there was. I forget where they were from, but they were from an Arab country, which is fine. And. And There was, like, such a high rate of incest in this particular community in England of Arab immigrants. And then they showed all their, like, freaky disabled kids. And it's like they're talking to the. The mother and father and like, well, we're cousins. My parents are cousins, which is really her uncle. You know, it's like, it's really. You know, the Venn diagram becomes a circle at a certain point.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And family tree is just a racetrack. Yeah. Yeah. There's one branch and it's crooked. And the kids all have, like, terrible diseases. One kid was, like, blind and mentally handicapped.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you're saying they should have thrown a mouse in there?

[Kristoff]

Should have thrown him out. Like, give a mouse some.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's a fire, kids.

[Kristoff]

Give him out some pussy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. If you give him.

[Kristoff]

If you give him as a buzzy, it's Bernie Macready.

[Mark Gagnon]

He's gonna try to move in. Then when he's moving in, give him my some.

[Kristoff]

I said I'm giving some ass up.

[Mark Gagnon]

That make. That. Make that a kid's book. So that's.

[Kristoff]

Give him some. It's actually a pretty fire idea.

[Mark Gagnon]

What is a mouse gotta do?

[Kristoff]

I ain't skating you mice.

[Mark Gagnon]

So he creates a utopia. This is his dream. And the only limiting factor is physical space.

[Kristoff]

Mm.

[Mark Gagnon]

So what happens? Great question, Great question. Alrighty.

[Sponsor]

Don't skip forward, guys, because I am on the road. World's fastest ad read coming at you. I'm going to be in Indianapolis, Buffalo, Raleigh, Poughkeepsie, Portland, Oregon, Fort Worth, Texas, Austin, Texas, Stanford, Philly, Lev Town, Chandler, Arizona, San Diego. I'm also going to be adding Toronto, Montreal, as well as Washington D.C. and a bunch of other dates. Dates are in the description. Also in probably the comments of this episode. Go see me on the road. Come hang out. I'll be hanging out with everyone after the show. Come shake my hand, call me an idiot, whatever you want to do, I will be there. Additionally, I will be doing my one hour of standup comedy. I'm very proud of this hour. I'm really excited to share with you guys and it would mean the world if everyone could come on out. And what do you wear to a show on the road? That's a great question. You can go to campgoods Co. That's right. We got merch. We got camp merch. We got hats, hoodies, T shirts. A lot of stuff is out of stock. Things have been selling like hotcakes. But we're going to be restocking everything in all the sizes. So you can go there right now, get all the merch, get all the coolest clothing in the podcast game. We're going to be updating that site regularly. And if you come out to a show, I'd love to see you sporting some of the threads that we got up online. I'll see you guys there.

[Mark Gagnon]

Let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because we have a new sponsor.

[Sponsor]

Of the show that I'm so excited.

[Mark Gagnon]

About that I need to tell you.

[Sponsor]

So listen up.

[Mark Gagnon]

Our food. Food is important.

[Sponsor]

What you eat is who you are.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's how you think, how you feel, how you work out. It basically encompasses everything. But unfortunately, our food doesn't have the nutrients we need to be our best. And that's where Symbiotica comes in. Symbiotica is the greatest supplement brand in the world. And here's why they got all these different supplements. I actually take these every single day. Specifically the magnesium L threonate.

[Sponsor]

I take this before I go to sleep and it helps me sleep better.

[Mark Gagnon]

Magnesium is amazing for helping me go to sleep. Look it up. There's studies everywhere. And this is great because it tastes amazing. It's not some pill. This is the L3 and 8. It's sublingual. It actually gets in your blood system faster and will make you sleep better, perform better the next day. And when you sleep better, your hormones reset better, you get stronger, you work out better. All that vitamin C, same thing you.

[Sponsor]

Need that it should be in your food, but it's not.

[Mark Gagnon]

And that's where Symbiotica can be the cure.

[Sponsor]

And then, of course, you got liquid colostrum. You probably had colostrum right when you.

[Mark Gagnon]

Were very first born, if you were.

[Sponsor]

Breastfed, your mom made colostrum.

[Mark Gagnon]

It is nature's first superfood. It is super dense in nutrients. And right here is. It is in this package. It'll make you feel amazing. So if you want to perform better at the gym, if you want to perform better at work, if you want to think faster, if you want to.

[Sponsor]

Be more social, even talking to women, oh, I don't know what to say. I jam up, I get nervous. It's possible some of that anxiety is.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because you are nutrient deficient.

[Sponsor]

You feel bad you don't have the.

[Mark Gagnon]

Adequate stuff in your body to make you be at your best.

[Sponsor]

So if you are interested in being the best you that you can be, go to symbiotica.com camp for 20% off your order. Plus free shipping.

[Mark Gagnon]

That is symbiotica.com camp camp for 20% off your order and free shipping.

[Sponsor]

This is all stuff I actually use. I'm weirdly obsessed with my health and.

[Mark Gagnon]

Nourishing my body, and this is the stuff that I take, which is why I'm so excited to tell you guys about it. So check it out and let's get back to the show.

[Sponsor]

This episode is brought to you by Selectquote. Life insurance can have a huge impact on our family's future. With Selectquote. Getting covered with the right policy for you is simple and affordable. Selectquote's licensed insurance agents will tailor your experience to find a life insurance policy for your needs in as little as 15 minutes. And selectquote partners with carriers that provide policies for many conditions. Selectquote they shop, you save. Go to selectquote.com Spotify Pod today to get started. This episode is brought to you by Factor. Optimize your nutrition this year with Factor America's number one ready to eat meal service. Factor's fresh, never frozen meals are dietitian approved. Ready to eat in just two minutes, choose from 40 weekly options across eight dietary preferences like calorie smart, protein plus, and keto. Eat smarter at factor meals.com listen50 and use code listen50 for 50 off plus free shipping. On your first box. Factor meals.com listen50 code listen50 t's and c's apply.

[Mark Gagnon]

The population of universe 25 starts to basically double every 55 days.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, that's what was blowing my mind.

[Mark Gagnon]

It just starts to go bang, bang, bang.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Mouse are having crazy.

[Kristoff]

Kids are having sex with each other.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes. Guys going down on guys. Girls going down. Orgy fence.

[Kristoff]

This happened with hamsters I had as a kid. I didn't know that. We didn't know the gender of the horses or horses.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whoa.

[Kristoff]

What an insane. We didn't know the gender of the horses. I go, am I sucking this horse's vagina or penis?

[Mark Gagnon]

Look at the balls on that female horse.

[Kristoff]

We had horses in this hamster cage. It was really cruel, actually, what we did, but no, hamsters, not horses.

[Mark Gagnon]

Were you fogging a girl horse or a boy horse?

[Kristoff]

I don't know. Either way, I got kicked. But I think they were hamsters. So they had sex with each other.

[Mark Gagnon]

Close.

[Kristoff]

Horses. Hamsters and horses, they bone. And then we have a bunch of baby hamsters. And then those babies, we kept one and, like, gave the rest away. And then we didn't. We thought foolhardily that they wouldn't have sex with Their own children, but they totally do. And then we had to had them even more hamsters.

[Mark Gagnon]

I love that you had, like a moral code. You're like, our hamsters will uphold this.

[Kristoff]

No, I just thought, like, it just, you know, I don't know, I thought like, oh, there's a pheromone.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

I mean, when I was a kid, I was like, yeah, it's his son. Why would she have sex with her son? Freaky hamster. Freaky ass.

[Mark Gagnon]

She a fan. She a fan.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. The hamster's like, what are we doing?

[Mark Gagnon]

This is so wrong.

[Kristoff]

This is so wrong. This is crazy. Look, I'll just get rid of your hamster boner, okay? Anyway, my hamstrings are broken. Broken hamster paws. I can't jerk my little hamster meat. Jerking his little hamster meat. By day 315, Samster come on the whip.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's hamster coming all over the wall.

[Kristoff]

It's like a Jackson pollock.

[Mark Gagnon]

By day 315, the colonies had 620 mice. Remember, it went from four pairs to 608. Yeah. Eight mice is 620 in 315 days.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. In less than a year.

[Mark Gagnon]

Crazy.

[Kristoff]

They're like rabbits, these hamsters.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. And what's interesting is that the capacity is 3,000. They're at 620, and they're already creating disproportionate clusters.

[Kristoff]

That's what I mean. It's like a fifth of the space is occupied.

[Mark Gagnon]

So around these communal, like, food areas and nesting compartments, they're all on top of each other, just like stressing each other out, creating these hot spots. And as they're doing this, the. The eating and grooming rituals that are like. These social rituals draw the mice into the shared spaces, and then the competition intensifies in those spots, and then that starts leading to.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm curious.

[Kristoff]

What are they competing for if not resources? Just dominance hierarchies, I'm assuming.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I'm assuming they're like, hey, who's the hottest?

[Kristoff]

Who's the biggest, baddest motherfucker? And who's like the. The little girl rat that everyone wants to plow? The sexy girl rat with big boobs.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes. Hold my. Hold my little mouse pocket. You know what I mean? Like, that's what they're trying to figure out. So this is a paradox, right? They have this abundant resource system, but yet there is an amplifying social conflict.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

First signs of dysfunction in the utopia. Sound familiar?

[Kristoff]

Sound familiar?

[Mark Gagnon]

Population peaks at 2200.

[Kristoff]

Crazy.

[Mark Gagnon]

At that point, the social hierarchies start to fracture under the density. Dominant males tasked with defending territory become hyper aggressive, attacking rivals indiscriminately and even resorting to cannibalism. Subordinate males withdraw from social interaction. And the lowest ranking omega males. Which is so funny.

[Kristoff]

Omega males. We need a new word for these people. Puss ass mice. These ass. Puss ass. Basement dwelling mice.

[Mark Gagnon]

For real. The omega cuck mice are retreating to isolated areas. Living in fear.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And just completely, you know, pulling themselves out.

[Kristoff]

Any of them become polyamorous?

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, I'm assuming they all are.

[Kristoff]

That's a good point.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't think they have strict monogamy. They're fucking their kids.

[Kristoff]

This is my mouse. Wet. Yeah. They're like, what are you doing to my mouse wife? Son of a. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm gonna have to eat you.

[Kristoff]

I mean. Yeah, I guess. There's harems though, probably, right? There's like one big badass mouse who. All the lady mice. I don't think. I can't imagine it's equitable.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. No, it's gonna be the.

[Kristoff]

The, you know, it's gonna be like one to every eight, you know, whatever.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's what I'm assuming happens.

[Kristoff]

That's what I think happens too.

[Mark Gagnon]

So the females are also stressed because they have to defend their nests and their young from the aggressive males. And now that leads to maternal neglect.

[Kristoff]

The aggressive males eat the young and then fuck the. Yeah, fuck the ladies. That's what lions do.

[Mark Gagnon]

So Vikings.

[Kristoff]

That's what I did.

[Mark Gagnon]

What?

[Kristoff]

Last week.

[Mark Gagnon]

What?

[Kristoff]

Hammered.

[Mark Gagnon]

Five high lives.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. But that killed my kids.

[Mark Gagnon]

And bang their wives.

[Kristoff]

I was eating hamsters.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh.

[Kristoff]

Slurping hamsters down. Trying to dominate a different species hierarchy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Some of the compartments for the record 90. Mortality of the infant Jesus. Of the young little pups, 90%. And the surviving ones lacked socialization and perpetuated the maladaptive behaviors across generations.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's an important detail we'll get to. So by day 600, we're now about like two years into this.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. I still think it's so funny. This sounds like a log from one of the day 600. I ate my own young. In order to compete in the dominance hierarchy, I've been having sex with one of the beautiful ones. We'll get to the beautiful ones later.

[Mark Gagnon]

I dream of a cat taking me out.

[Kristoff]

Sometimes. I wish I could hang my own little mice neck. But I just slipped through the noose like a little noodle. There's nothing to catch on. I don't have a head. Anyway, so this is.

[Mark Gagnon]

This is a stagnation phase. Day 600. We're in stagnation phase.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Reproduction is basically stopped. Slows dramatically. Birth rates dropped to a third of their peak as females ceased mating and abandoned their young.

[Kristoff]

That makes sense.

[Mark Gagnon]

Aggression amongst the males escalate.

[Kristoff]

What is the birth rate right now in New York City?

[Mark Gagnon]

Dude. I actually would be so curious about.

[Kristoff]

New York locals who are having babies. Has to be way lower than, like.

[Mark Gagnon]

It'S like, it must be 0.5.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Because you think about a rural area and you're like, yeah, there's like nine farms here. They're all families, and they all have several children. You know, you have to have two.

[Mark Gagnon]

Kids per couple to be at one.

[Kristoff]

Right. There's no way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Like, I mean, how many dweebus. You know, fucking guys with red glasses are like, I've never wanted children. I actually really don't. I don't know. I have a hard time sympathizing with.

[Mark Gagnon]

Those folks Anyway, so I have no idea what the birth rate in New York City is, but I can tell you anecdotally, it ain't much in my apartment. It's huge. Just only in my little. Where I live.

[Kristoff]

Why?

[Mark Gagnon]

Because there's one baby born recently.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So we're going up.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, the data within my one unit.

[Kristoff]

But isn't it. There's so many couples in New York that don't have kids or they don't have many kids. And, like, it's professional women. And they don't have as many kids.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, of course. No, it's. It's anecdotally. There's no kids.

[Kristoff]

There's no truly.

[Mark Gagnon]

And I don't know. I actually joined Manhattan. I joined a group of fathers.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That like dudes that hang out with their kids. And they're all 40.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. They're all old and they had their first kid.

[Mark Gagnon]

They're all looking at me like, are you like a babysitter?

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

They assume that I'm 30.

[Kristoff]

And you have a child. They think you have. You have a newborn at 30. And they're like, what?

[Mark Gagnon]

I tell them. They're like, oh, I'm like, I'm 28. Yeah, you're in your 20s.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

They truly are like, why? What? Is everything okay? I think I'm like, when did your father have you? My. My father?

[Kristoff]

No, but everybody's father.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, yeah.

[Kristoff]

You know what I mean? It's like, increased like five or 10 years in one generation.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

It's pretty staunchly you know, my dad was very old, but, you know, my sister. My mother had her when she was 27. Yeah, 28. Your age. And no one was like. And she was like, oh, fuck.

[Mark Gagnon]

Which, for the record, in the rest of the country, I think that's normal.

[Kristoff]

That is normal.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, I don't think anyone backs down.

[Kristoff]

That's true. That's true.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, that's very much a coastal, coastal city, for sure. So what happens is that as the aggression amongst these males escalate, the women increasingly withdraw from communal activities.

[Kristoff]

Because the dudes are just fighting, and they're like, guys, stop.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, they're scaring the hoes.

[Kristoff]

Scare the hoes. Definition each other's necks.

[Mark Gagnon]

Literally. The hoeser. The hoes are getting extremely scared, and the behavior spreads contagiously, destabilizing the entire population. So as there's a skirmish amongst male mice over here.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

The other ones start to fight also.

[Kristoff]

It's just because that's in the air, you go, I guess we got to fight right now.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. It's like you're just like a bar fight. Your hackles are up. You're like, dude, like, am I going to die?

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Like, it's like two guys are fighting at a bar for some reason. It, like, now the whole, like, now eight people are fighting, sitting at the bar. Wait, why?

[Mark Gagnon]

Apparently. Have you ever heard this? That after UFC fights, fights in bars go up a ton, and a lot of ufc, like, a lot of bars won't play UFC fights for that reason, because they're like. It's just not worth.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

The fight ends, and then we're like, fight.

[Sponsor]

Precipice bar.

[Kristoff]

Like, sometimes fight break out here just organically. So we can't. Yeah, we can't do this.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kristoff]

We can't just play Ultra Violence on the television.

[Mark Gagnon]

But you see some guys fighting, like, dude, we got. You got to strike first.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. I mean, ask questions later.

[Mark Gagnon]

So that takes us to the Beautiful Ones.

[Kristoff]

Yes, the Beautiful Ones. I think I'd be a Beautiful One.

[Mark Gagnon]

I highly doubt it. But it's an interesting thing in this entire experiment that the Beautiful Ones were the mice that withdrew entirely from the social interactions, both male and female.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

They showed obsessive grooming behavior.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So they just groomed themselves over just like, they couldn't help it.

[Kristoff]

This is like the agoraphobic OCD ratio. Yeah, it's like the Howie lady. Yeah, the Howie Mandela's germaphobe. Germaphobe. I think I kind of imagine someone who's like, From New York City. And they just never leave their apartment.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Kristoff]

And you're like, why are you in the greatest city in the world again? And you're like, I.

[Mark Gagnon]

Fully detached.

[Kristoff]

Fully. That's like a spotless apartment by themselves. Yes.

[Mark Gagnon]

They avoid mating. They show no interest in territorial disputes.

[Kristoff]

Like a weird anxiety disorder thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

But no interest in territorial disputes is interesting also.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because they're just like, it's. I'm above this. Like, I'm just detached. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, well, they care. They don't care what happens.

[Kristoff]

They're apathetic towards, like, whatever, like, gain they could have from winning the dispute.

[Mark Gagnon]

There is no gain. What is there? No, there's unlimited food.

[Kristoff]

There's unlimited food and water. So it's almost like they. They understand something sort of implicitly that, like, okay. That violence is somewhat meaningless.

[Mark Gagnon]

Not only is the violence meaningless.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Our existence is meaningless.

[Mark Gagnon]

Is meaningless. So what is the point of doing anything?

[Kristoff]

Right. Why would rise to a hierarchy that when I get at the top, it's the same as the bottom?

[Mark Gagnon]

Everything's the same.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So they're.

[Kristoff]

That feels pretty. That's kind of spot on, you know, because people are like, that's why the. You know, that's kind of like. I've noticed and I don't know. I think this is more of a trend now with, like, the Internet and things. Is that. And gaming specifically and young men is like, maybe not leaving the house till later. Not like wanting a driver's license is like, a weird one. I mean, you meet like, a guy who's like 22, 23. He still is at home. He games a lot. He doesn't have a driver's license. And I'm like, what do you do? Exactly. He's like, well, there's groceries right there. I game right here. I goon right here.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Like, what am I? You know, what am I? Like, what am I after? You know, it's like, what is the.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, have you seen, like, sex rates amongst, like, Gen Z?

[Kristoff]

Lower.

[Mark Gagnon]

Alcohol is down. Nicotine cigarette use is down.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, everything's down.

[Mark Gagnon]

Which seems good. Like, of course, like, excessive alcohol use is not good.

[Kristoff]

And, you know, but it seems promiscuous. Promiscuity or whatever. Like, if it's at a super high, is bad.

[Mark Gagnon]

But it seems like it's indicative of greater, like, isolation of social behavior.

[Kristoff]

For sure. Dude. I think this is like, Stanhope has a great bit about it. Like, back in the day, he, like, called it in, like, 20, not 2010 or something he had a bit about it about like, this is the first generation that will be lamer than the last. Yeah, every generation when I grew up was more rebellious. More rebellious. They did more drugs, they had more, you know, casual sex. They drank more, they did crazier shit. And now it's like, you know, the, the main source of pleasure is like Adderall and gaming and you know what I mean? It's like very isolationist stuff.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes, Huberman talks about this all the time. Yeah. Fast acting dopamine.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, short term dopamine is generally not good for you.

[Kristoff]

That's generally not good for you. But I also think like, as I drink caffeine. Yeah, well, you need caffeine. Some people need caffeine. Oh, that's good. Asmr. Yeah, no, like, but also it's like what the world has to offer isn't that appealing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, there's just no point.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Which sucks in the utopia. Not in our life.

[Kristoff]

No, not in our life.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're talking about the utopia, right?

[Kristoff]

Yeah, well, in general too.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, no, no, no. Our life is awesome. Our society is built super, super sick.

[Kristoff]

No, I mean, it's like, dude, no. There's no good jobs. College degrees are meaningless and a scam. And based on predatory loan practices. And the economy's collapsing.

[Mark Gagnon]

The banks and corporations are just gonna kind of stomp on us until we all die.

[Kristoff]

Until we all die. It's like, you know, big tech's gonna just rape our attention until we're just like Wally people with. But we're gonna be like wall E people with no money.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, but you won't need money.

[Kristoff]

Exactly.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because you won't own anything. You're gonna like, like it.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Yeah, Right? Let's go, dude.

[Mark Gagnon]

So these, these beautiful ones are physically pristine. They look beautiful. But their detachment symbolizes the societal collapse. Right. They're just completely checked out, apathetic to everything. What's interesting is even when the beautiful ones, after the experiment ends, are relocated to new environments, they remained asocial.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

And failed to reproduce.

[Kristoff]

You get, you get in a rut.

[Mark Gagnon]

And they demonstrated the psychological damage of their upbringing within this environment.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, dude, it's. It's really tough. I feel bad for it. I think it's in our society more of a male thing for whatever reason. I don't know why, but I do see that like the, the, the parallel between just like obsessive grooming and like, you know, kind of agoraphobia almost in like young men, which kind of bums me out.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I mean, like, looks maxing type vibes.

[Kristoff]

Looks maxing. They're jelking, they're jelqing and they're gooning. And they're what, they're mewing?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. So it's like. It's kind of. But they're not even incels, really. These are kind of voluntary celibates.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

You know, these aren't even like, you know, the incel is like the omega male. Yeah, the omega male is kind of an incel. Whereas, like, the beautiful one is almost like something else where I've met people like that. They're not even interested. Hidden sex, really?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

I wouldn't even. Class. They're not like, you know, smoking cigarettes in their fucking mom's basement and, you know, calling for the. The death of women, you know? Yeah, they're just like, whatever. I just like, play fortnite, like, with my friends. I just play overwatch.

[Mark Gagnon]

And they kind of have a social thing with their.

[Kristoff]

They do. They have like a very active discord. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. It's interesting that even after they get taken out of the environment that they're still.

[Kristoff]

They're still like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like that. And then on top of that, when they have kids. Kids.

[Kristoff]

Those kids are like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

They pass it on.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, according to the. The research, the mice born in later phases inherited the maladaptive behavior such as aggression withdrawal. Even if they're raised in less crowded conditions, later in life, they're just emulating.

[Kristoff]

What their folks are doing. I mean, you know, see, see, monkey do.

[Mark Gagnon]

So by 1973.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Five years later, Universe 25's population had collapsed entirely.

[Kristoff]

Whoa.

[Mark Gagnon]

The last conception occurred on day 920, and the colony dwindled to extinction despite abundant resources.

[Kristoff]

Extinction?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yep. They all literally just died.

[Kristoff]

Wow.

[Mark Gagnon]

Calhoun concluded that the overpopulation alone, even without resource scarcity, destabilized a society, led to a behavioral sink and irreversible dysfunction. And the grim outcome underscored the importance of addressing social and psychological needs alongside material abundance in designing sustainable communities.

[Kristoff]

Wow.

[Mark Gagnon]

Crazy.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. That's nuts.

[Mark Gagnon]

So the parts that kind of stick out is like the. The voluntary clustering. The mice congregate around communal food hoppers and nesting areas, ignoring the underutilized compartments. Yeah, there's basically just cities. Right. Like, we're human beings on this giant Earth, and For some reason, 90% of.

[Kristoff]

The population lives in like 1% of the land.

[Mark Gagnon]

For some reason.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Just all jammed up.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Because, I mean, if you look at the. You know, they're all coastal, they're all relatively fertile, like for the resource, you know, resource heavy. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

They're resource centers.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Which makes sense. Obviously, you want to be around the resources, but now you don't need that. You could live away from resource center and still have all the stuff you need.

[Kristoff]

Definitely.

[Mark Gagnon]

Assuming that everything stays stable.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Which in the utopia, there were stable environments, but in our world, there's not necessarily.

[Kristoff]

No, not necessarily.

[Mark Gagnon]

You know, war could break out. And if you're living in a, you know, resource desert, then.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, you're probably up. You might be relying on imports that way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Exactly. He notes that the. The areas, the hot spots of social interactions become the. The competition zones, and that leads to random violence. And the other thing that's. That's interesting, the vertical stairwells that connected the compartments forced mice to have frequent, unavoidable interactions, while the centralized food and water stations created choke points for conflict.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Frequent, unavoidable interactions. Yeah. I mean, it would be nice, right, like, if you could just choose whenever you see someone else within the community, you know, if you have, like, a stable, like, nice amount of space, nice amount of real estate. I think that's why folks, like, are drawn to more rural lifestyles and, like, you know, like that fantasy of, like, I just want land somewhere. You know, I think that's what it is. It's like, let me engage in social hierarchy when I want to.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

At my leisure or when I need to. Not when. Not. It's forced upon me. That's why, like, you know, you have someone from Omaha and they get on the subway and they're absolutely terrified. Not Omaha, it's a city, but, you know, like, from Nebraska. I meant, like, from nowhere in Nebraska. And then they get onto the train and, like, what the. This is insane. And you're like, nothing's gonna happen. But they're like, but I'm in this space where there's so much potential for something to happen.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

You know?

[Mark Gagnon]

Now, critics argue that the setup of the experiment is unlike, like, you can't map it to the human experience because in this utopia, quote, unquote.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

People are required to bump into each other. Like, there's choke points and, like, forced contact.

[Kristoff]

There's, of course, forced contact in cities, but.

[Mark Gagnon]

In cities. Sure. But they. The critics argue that the artificial setup overstates the inevitability of collapse. Because in a natural environment, animals disperse to avoid tension.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And that the closed system traps them together in a feedback loop of aggression and withdrawal.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So in an actual utopia for mice, they would disperse of Course they would avoid conflict. They'd get away.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. No, it's not a utopia. It's. It's a utopia minus space.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

What happens when you have a utopia minus space? And you could argue that's what like a major city is.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Is a utopia minus space. It's like, like public transit's unbelievable in New York. Like all the food is like so readily available there. You know what I mean? All these things, food, housing and travel is all like super readily available. The caveat is there is forced interaction and limited space. So that's kind of what the universe 25 is.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

You know, it's like you could stay in your apartment and over Uber eats all the. I mean there's ways around this idea, but still, like I think, you know, I think it's poignant still, but you know, obviously you can't map it one to one, but it's an interesting idea to look at.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Other. Other critics like this guy Jonathan Friedman, argued that human societies with their complex cultural norms and institutions might mitigate density related stress more effectively than mice.

[Kristoff]

For sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

That makes sense, right. Other people note that the elimination of all challenges, predators, disease, resource scarrity, scarcity, creates an unnatural scenario where boredom and social monotony likely compound the dysfunction. But I think that's, that's still cities.

[Kristoff]

That's cities because that's still just humanity.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Boredom and social monotony is.

[Kristoff]

Sounds like the human experience.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Right now.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And it is compounding.

[Kristoff]

Sounds like a western experience. I'll say.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. And I think it does add to social dysfunction for sure. Doing a 9 to 5 where you do the same shit every single day.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like a dead end job. That's meaningless.

[Kristoff]

Well, that's the meaning. That's the meaning angle. I think the point is like, maybe space is like one factor here, but also meaning is a huge angle. And I think that if you're not actively striving for resources, which is all a mice is meant to do, all of my a mouse is meant to do is strive for resources enough to procreate, you know, which is a clear parallel between us and them. And we've abstracted it into like, you know, jobs and money and blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's still like at the end of the day, it's like I'm striving for resources in order to be comfortable enough to procreate.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Sponsor]

What's up guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I gotta tell you about a dirty little secret. Okay. The Insurance industry doesn't want you to know this. Well, basically what the insurance companies do is that they profit by holding on to your money as long as possible. You pay them every month and then eventually when an accident happens, they try to deny or delay your claim so that they can keep their profits going. I mean, it goes even worse when in court. The insurance companies want jurors to think that the at fault driver, you know, a mom that rear ends someone, you know, she's a single mom and they think that she is going to be paying the verdict amount. Meanwhile, it's really the insurance companies who are going to be covering the costs. And that's what I want to tell you about the good folks over at Morgan and Morgan because they will take on the case and they are almost always going after the big insurance companies and not the individuals at fault. Morgan and Morgan fights hard for their clients and these corporations know that and it pisses them off. A recent client in Pennsylvania just received 29 million DOL the insurer's best offer, 500,000.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Sponsor]

There's another client in Florida that received $20 million. And the last offer from the insurance company was $0. There's a reason why Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. So if you are ever injured or dealing with an insurance company that doesn't want to pay up their fair share, you could go check out Morgan and Morgan. That's right. Hiring the wrong law firm can be disastrous. And hiring the right law firm could, you know, be a big substantial increase to your settlement. And Morgan and Morgan makes it so easy to get started. Their fee is free. Unless they win, there's literally no risk. Unless they win your case, you're not paying a dime. And with Morgan Morgan, it's never been easier. I'm telling you, you just go to forthepeople.com that's right, f o r the people.com and use the code GAGNON G A G N O N or dial pound law. That's pound 529. That's for the people.com GAGNON or dial pound law. That's Pound five hundred and twenty nine. And this is a paid advertisement. Now, ladies and gentlemen, let's get back to the show.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's up guys?

[Sponsor]

We're gonna take a break really quick because I'm sitting here in my beautiful tent, as you can see, every week, day in, day out. And people always ask, they say, mark, how do I have a tent like that? I want to, I want to sit in a beautiful tent and Invite a lover, a friend, you know, someone that I appreciate and adore. I want to give them a good time inside my tent. Well, it's easy. Thanks to the good folks [e-mail]. that's right. Bluechew is the original OG brand offering chewable tablets. And what do these tablets do? Oh, I'm glad you asked. They are going to give you the just in a stronger, harder and longer lasting sexual performance. That's right. They're gonna help you pitch a tent, any place, anywhere. And the best part, it's all done online. That means you don't have to go.

[Mark Gagnon]

To a doctor's office and, you know.

[Sponsor]

Talk to them, be like, oh, you know, I'm feeling some type of way. Look, this is not for people that are, you know, lacking necessarily. This is for people to want to have the best experience of their life. Whether it's Valentine's Day, birthday, a funeral, who knows, whenever you need it. You never know when you could use bluechew. And we have a special deal for the listeners of this program. That's right. Try your first month of Bluechew for free. That's right, completely free. Mark, is it gonna work for me? Is this, hey, it's free. Why not just try it? Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank Bluechew for sponsoring this podcast. All right, now let's get after it and let's get back to the show.

What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker? It's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95 including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com I don't.

[Mark Gagnon]

Know, it makes me think about, I think struggle is like fundamental. I think human beings need it.

[Kristoff]

That's why you make struggles that aren't.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Which I mean, like, do you have an example, like just being like, oh.

[Kristoff]

Stand up comedy business. There's absolutely no reason. There's no reason. And it like keeps me up at night and I hate. Yeah, you know, the stress and all these things. But like, you know, I'm extremely drawn to it because of its implicit meaning for me.

[Mark Gagnon]

Have you ever heard of this dude, Christopher Ryan? He wrote a book called Sex at Dawn.

[Kristoff]

No.

[Mark Gagnon]

It was a very popular, like Anthropological, like, evolution book about like human relationships. We wrote another one called Civilized to Death.

[Kristoff]

I've heard of Civilized to Death, which I loved.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, like, of course, like there's a, you know, potential, potential blind spots in some of his research. He's not really necessarily a scientist. He's more like a researcher.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, of course.

[Mark Gagnon]

But I found the book to be, like, very apt.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, it's sort of like pop anthropology.

[Mark Gagnon]

Exactly.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I thought it was great. But basically it explores that idea. Like, hey, we are civilizing ourselves to be miserable.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, even there's a little thing like sleeping on the ground versus sleeping in a bed can take days, years off your life.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, for sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

But like, one of the indicators of health is being able to get up off the road. And so like, you see these old women that live, you know, in small communities, not in the west, where they sleep on the ground. They're able to get up off the ground until the day they die.

[Kristoff]

It's also like, you know, there's grannies in New York, you know, living third story walk ups. And they can still.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's right.

[Kristoff]

They crush it at 89. And you're like, well, it's because they always had to.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

You don't have an option not to. You got to do that. But there's a feeling it's got to work.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's a feeling that it's like you see an old lady struggling up the stairs and you're like, oh, just let's get you a thing. Let's get you a hover around.

[Kristoff]

Let's get you a little lift, you know? Yeah, we get you a lift, we get you a bed that you're gonna sink into and get sores.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes. And it's just because you want to help.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, for sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

But the reality is that letting people suffer is actually the best thing for them because human beings are, of course, anti fragile is what they call it.

[Kristoff]

Right, right. It's exercise. Fundamentally, it's just exercise.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

I mean, my family has always, like all the people, like my grandparents, if they've passed away, it was at a pretty. It was quite an old age.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's sick.

[Kristoff]

And all of them had physical either enterprises or jobs that required them to be that way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

None of them were ever immobile. Like, none of them were ever like, lame in any serious way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And it's like, you can easily chalk that up to, my Grandpa lived till 90 and he was a distance runner.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's great.

[Kristoff]

And then my granny was like an avid runner too. And then My grandpa lived till his 90s and he worked blue collar.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

So, like, all these guys, like, bust their ass. Basically had to bust their ass. And now you're, like, looking at these sedentary jobs and you're like, man, like.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, this is killing me.

[Kristoff]

It's crazy. It's also, like, I've heard it correlated to Alzheimer's. I've heard it correlated to colon cancer. Like, it's crazy. It's like, if you sit for 40 hours a week and don't exercise.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. You're dying. It's like you're smoking.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. It's way. It's terrible.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And it's like, just. The guy with the factory job is infinitely healthier than you because he has to walk around and move some boxes eight hours a day.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Of course. I mean, discounting the obvious injuries and. Right.

[Kristoff]

Except for the fucking knife that falls from the sky, you know, except for the forklift that crushes his femur. Other than that.

[Mark Gagnon]

But generally speaking, like, having just, like, a labor job or exercising.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Is so good for you.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Like, my pops is in his. He's pushing 70, and he's, like, extremely fit.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Like, for his age, he's, like, unbelievably fit.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's the thing that I feel like so much of, like, the bro productivity culture misses is like, hey, work out so you can be, like, a God.

[Kristoff]

So you can be sexy and.

[Mark Gagnon]

So you can be sexy and chicks will, like, you, like, dude, just work out so you don't die.

[Kristoff]

I think it's just work out. Like, I mean, I've heard the best longevity things are heart and balance.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

So it's like cardiovascular health and balance. Because people, like, they just eat. When you're 73 and you can't get up.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And it's like, that's really bad.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Like, if you can't.

[Mark Gagnon]

Life alert vibes.

[Kristoff]

That's what life alerts for you, literally. If you're, like a mobile person, though, like, and hopefully you still have, like, dexterity in your joints and things like this. Just because you've been exercising your whole life.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Is that you can pop back up and be okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do you ever intentionally make things less convenient?

[Kristoff]

Trying to think sometimes, but maybe not so much physical stuff. I'll go out of my way to go, all right. No podcast, no music on this car ride.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's fine.

[Kristoff]

Only thoughts.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. That's good.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because again, I think that's another one of those things where it's just like, constant input and constant consumption.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Every single day, every moment of the day, I'm constantly consuming something, right? Where it's like, well, just spend time with yourself, think about what your own thoughts are for a minute.

[Kristoff]

Or like, how can I handle this? Okay. And like you're mitigating a certain anxiety by doing those things. And I'm like, why is this, I'm driving to work. Why do I, Why, why would this make me anxious? And then you can be like, well, this thing's bothering me about this thing. And then you can go, oh, actually, well, that's an easy thing to fix.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you can work through it.

[Kristoff]

And then you go, okay, I'll just fix that, you know, whatever it is. Or it's meaningless drivel that's making you anxious. And then you can go, why is meaningless dribble making me anxious right now? I should just ignore this. This is not worthy of. Yeah, whatever.

[Mark Gagnon]

But you can confront the anxiety rather than kind of run from it.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, it's like the Buddhist like monkey mind thing. If you ever heard the monkey mind thing. It's like there's just always monkey chatter in your brain that like, it's basically like passive thought. I learned this thing about anxiety that most of the time when you're having just kind of long term low lying anxiety, that it's a kind of passive thought, you're not actively engaged with it. It's like somewhere in the back of your mind you're like, I'm gonna die from a colon and cancer that I pretending I have. You know, whatever. It's like you're not focused on it. You're not fixated. Now that's.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think that's true. I don't know. I, I try to actively do things that are less convenient. Like, especially in New York, it's like, okay, this is going to be like a three minute Uber, but if I have time, like I'll just walk, right?

[Kristoff]

Yeah, It'll be a 30 minute walk or a 3 minute Uber. I'll take the 30 minute walk or.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whatever the thing is. Like, I'll just be like, okay. Or like, oh, I feel kind of bad right now. Or like I feel anxious or I feel low.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And I really want like sugar. Yeah, that'll make me feel good. And I'll intentionally try to be like, just deal with the bad feeling.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, for sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

And remove the convenience.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. When I am good and don't just indulge in the craving, I go, give it 15 minutes. Will you still want sugar in 15 minutes?

[Mark Gagnon]

Gooning is part of that gooning yeah, just like edge. Edge, yeah, exactly.

[Kristoff]

That's what. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's the longest you ever edge for.

[Kristoff]

Four or five hours maybe, dude. What you do. This is a little edge guide for you guys especially. It's good. In college, what I used to do was I would take Vyvanse, which is similar to Adderall. And what you do is you. I was in college, so I would have, like, stuff to do. I have, like, important assignments. And vyvanse lasts like 8 hours, 10 hours. It lasts fucking forever. So I could knock out my shit in three, four hours. This assignment, this big assignment I had to do, lock in on Vyvanse. And then you still got. Now you got five. Five more hours of goon time.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh.

[Kristoff]

So, okay, I'm done with my essay. Awesome. Let me get four screens up and goon. And then you would just edge and goon for another four or five hours. Or you could game and chain smoke cigarettes. That's another great thing. Yeah. What you want to do is you want to crack open your sliding door, set up a chair near the sliding door, big tv, chain smoke in between COD lobbies.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[Kristoff]

And be gacked out of your mind.

[Mark Gagnon]

But having a sick time.

[Kristoff]

Oh, yeah. And just smoke a pack of cigarettes in four hours.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. That's awesome.

[Kristoff]

So you could do that too. That feels really good.

[Mark Gagnon]

You ever use edge? AI?

[Kristoff]

What the is edge?

[Mark Gagnon]

AI, this is a. This is a digital service that basically it can tell right when you're about to bust.

[Kristoff]

It cannot tell when you're gonna bust.

[Mark Gagnon]

And so it'll be based on what. What it's hooked up to. A.

[Kristoff]

A ring.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, it's like to a monitor on your. And so basically, it'll feel when you're about to bust, and then it'll stop. And then it takes away the visual stimulus and starts playing like cocomelon or something. And then you bust a coco. No, no, no. And then you can't bust. And so then you stop. They also have a physical attachment. The basically just like, strokes you, and then the second you're about to bust, it stops.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, this is really bad for the fabric of society.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, it uses AI, so it's good, dude.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. I mean, I've known people, they go, yeah, I got a fleshlight. I go, don't. Just don't do that. Yeah, don't do it. Yeah, just don't get one. You know, this is how I feel in general about, like, AI, I think, is the fleshlight of art.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's a shark jump.

[Kristoff]

It's Not a shark. Jump. It's just like, cheating. It's totally cheating.

[Mark Gagnon]

You don't think a flashlight's cheating?

[Kristoff]

No, it's cheating. Like, it's cheating life. I see the sanctity of purse.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. No, I think AI is one of those things. I think people are gonna have to intentionally, like, take a reprieve from in order to create, you know, sort of artificial struggle. Meaningful struggle.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Here's the problem though, right? No one will do that.

[Mark Gagnon]

But no one's. No one does that with sugar.

[Kristoff]

No one does that with sugar. No one does that with the social media. No one does that with pornography. No one does that. Yeah, with, of course, society gambling. No one does that with eating anything. You know, it's like across the board. We live in brave new world. Yeah, it's just brave new world.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kristoff]

We live in brave new world. Yes, fully.

[Mark Gagnon]

I completely. I agree.

[Kristoff]

Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

But on an individual basis, if you're tending to your own garden.

[Kristoff]

Yes.

[Mark Gagnon]

You can choose to kind of opt out.

[Kristoff]

You can choose to opt out. But I think these companies who do all these things should be heavily drawn, quartered. They should be drawn and quartered. Heavily regulated. Trust busted.

[Mark Gagnon]

Busted.

[Kristoff]

Trust busted. And probably tried for crimes against humanity.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay, well, that seems. Seems a little strict, but have you. Have you heard of, I think this is how you pronounce it, Haiki komori.

[Kristoff]

Let me see.

[Mark Gagnon]

Haikikomori.

[Kristoff]

No, it's hiki komori.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hikikomori.

[Kristoff]

Hikikomori.

[Mark Gagnon]

These are Japanese, Japanese social recluses. These are the Japanese beautiful ones. Oh. So in Japan, they face. These are people that basically have like a burnout induced withdrawal from high pressure workplaces. And they kind of just like check out, hey, we're not a part of society anymore.

[Kristoff]

Yes, I've heard of these people.

[Mark Gagnon]

And they just kind of leave. And it's sort of a human manifestation of the beautiful ones.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Kind of wild. Like it exists already in our society and there's like a name for it within Japan.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, no, I've. Japan's an especially one like this, you know, they have some serious social things going on.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. But you're about to go.

[Kristoff]

I'm about to go. I'm excited.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do a little experiment.

[Kristoff]

Go a couple maid cafes. Go to the soap store. What's it called? The soap tub.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, the soap land.

[Kristoff]

Soap land. Yeah. I'm gonna go. Yeah. My girlfriend's coming with me.

[Mark Gagnon]

But I mean, they probably got some fur.

[Kristoff]

I go, I think we should do our own, like, solo day. Yeah, I think we should have like a date or like by ourselves.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, find ourselves, send her a tik tok and be like, we both do pictures all day. And then we get together at dinner.

[Kristoff]

And we talk about, oh, my God, duh. She'd think it's so cute.

[Mark Gagnon]

And she would have. No.

[Kristoff]

Meanwhile, I'm getting my absolutely cranked at the soap store.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're getting it six ways. Dp.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, dude. She's dressed up like a cow and there's like a, like, you know, she's getting milked. I'm getting fully milked.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're on a milking table?

[Kristoff]

I'm fully getting milking tabled, dude.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do you think they have a milking table over there?

[Kristoff]

Yeah, for sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

That'd be sick as hell.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. They actually eat quite a lot of dairy.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's interesting.

[Kristoff]

You think it was. There's not. It's not traditional. No, it's like not in traditional Japanese.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's no way cows are like, indigenous to Japan.

[Kristoff]

I don't think so. No. They're an introduced thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Kristoff]

But like cheese and dairy and stuff is like blown up in popularity.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whoa.

[Kristoff]

Since like being becoming more westernized, I mean, they good.

[Mark Gagnon]

Everything they take that's ours. They make it so sick, dude.

[Kristoff]

They make it crazy.

[Mark Gagnon]

A5 wagyu wild. I don't even think. Yeah. We didn't even know beef could do that.

[Kristoff]

No. They were like, let's pet it and give it beer and chestnuts, our dumb asses. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

The Germans were like, look at the.

[Kristoff]

Kicking it in the udders.

[Mark Gagnon]

Put a bell on his neck. These fucking idiots. Yeah.

[Kristoff]

We've been stapling a tag to its ear.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I mean, we could never do it.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. The hikikomori komori are, dude. I remember seeing this, like, little weird TikTok about a lady who was just drinking all the time. Like this, like a skinny, pretty young Japanese woman who had a kind of meaningless. No dating, no anything, and she would just drink. Just be drunk all the time.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Just check out.

[Kristoff]

I'm like, that's crazy. You're like a 110 pound, like Japanese waifu and you're just getting hammered.

[Mark Gagnon]

The desire to just withdraw. Yeah. Just get away.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And what's interesting is that from these experiments, people, like, literally urban planners have actually taken this concept in mind when designing, you know, cities.

[Kristoff]

But if the opposite of this is urban sprawl, it can go fuck itself.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, of course, it's not necessarily urban sprawl. It's just how spaces are organized. And then they apply this to Prisons and offices and neighborhoods. Like, okay, how do we reduce, like, contact? Is it possible to create more disparate resource centers so that people have less frequent.

[Kristoff]

There's not like three places to eat in this massive place. There's like a hundred.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Kristoff]

Smaller places.

[Mark Gagnon]

The question is not like, oh, they have enough food, they're fine. It's like, how often are they bumping into each other?

[Kristoff]

I've noticed that. I don't know if this is the same idea, but. And it might have just been a physical convenience, but I swear there were at Universal Studios when I worked there, several small cafeterias spread throughout.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

There'd be like a 20 seater cafeteria.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And you're like, why isn't there just like a couple big ones?

[Mark Gagnon]

I think. I wonder if this is something that's known within, like the urban.

[Kristoff]

Seems like a move like a theme park would do for its employees. You know, they're very logistical in that sense.

[Mark Gagnon]

So even if you can get your food as quickly and it's the same food at the same rate, having them in smaller.

[Kristoff]

Right. More stochastic, sort of logically, more human. Like, how many people were our fucking cavemen brothers eating around like 80 tops.

[Mark Gagnon]

Tops. Yeah. I mean, Dunbar's numbers were like 160.

[Kristoff]

Is that like the limit on like, nomadic groups?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, basically. Like, once you get past 160, like, you're going to start having fracture.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And so, like, amongst, like, bands of hunter gatherers, there'll be like another, you know, like, alpha dude that'll be like, yo, fuck you and the click you competition.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And we're gonna bounce.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. And then they split off into multiple.

[Mark Gagnon]

And that's great too.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, naturally.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, that makes sense. I wonder how much.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I think it's one second.

[Kristoff]

I wonder how long that takes and like, how incest is mitigated in that. Because if you have enough ones, I.

[Mark Gagnon]

Mean, how many times are you gonna bring up incest?

[Kristoff]

I just like to think about it and. But you know what I mean? Like, there's 160 people everywhere. It's like, that's not them. It's like Appalachia. But they're isolated. That was their problem.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I think, I mean, hollers divided them. This is the assumption that they're not like, you know, you know, intermingle with.

[Kristoff]

Any other group, swap a little and.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do a little like, yo, our tribes are cool and we're sister tribes.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. But are they knowledgeable? Do they understand this? I guess maybe through common wisdom. They're like, okay, like, we're getting a little too. We gotta switch things up.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, consider we got here. There's something that must be intrinsic about it.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whether it's pheromonal or something. Something else.

[Kristoff]

There's harems, too. Like, wasn't it one dude that would have many women? Like, isn't that pretty normal?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, it seems like it. I don't know.

[Kristoff]

Like, that would happen at, like, the top of the hierarchy. And then, like, most people would be semi. What, serially monogamous. Monogamous. Stick. Whatever the word is. I don't know. I don't know enough about human reproduction.

[Mark Gagnon]

Unfortunately, another element from this that people kind of parsed out is that the later born mice never experienced a functional society and never really integrated back in.

[Kristoff]

It's kind of Gen Z world, dude.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. This guy, Robert Putnam has this concept called social capital decay. And this is basically communities that lose shared norms over generations.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So Universe 25, each cohort inherited a degraded culture.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And so their input was already degraded, so then their output was even further degraded. And the human parallels include communities trapped in, like, cycles of violence and poverty, where dysfunction becomes intergenerational and that you never know what functional society is.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. It's interesting, though, because, like, they are functioning, but just within that, like, modality or whatever.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, it's functional in, like, a objective sense. Like they're doing a function, but it's.

[Kristoff]

Well, no, I mean, it's functional, like, for their interpersonal thing, you know.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. To survive their life for that specific space. Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Which is. Why not, you know, whatever. Call me a lib cuck. Whatever. It's like, dude, obviously institutional racism has just been devastating in this sense.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, of course. Because, like, you create communities where violence is the norm, and then that perpetuates more violence or drugs, poverty, violence, anything.

[Kristoff]

Like, you know, we're redlining, we're doing all this horrific shit.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. And then there's never an experience of what a functioning society is or perhaps a more equitable society.

[Kristoff]

Right. And then, like, you know, then that's the concept of, like, getting out, you know, it's like that idea getting out or not returning, you know, is like, you know, seen as, you know, the immoral thing to do.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's why I always say, like, people just do the hustles. They know. Like, I forget what it was. This might be even apocryphal, but, like, it was one woman that came from Vietnam to the United States in, like, the 30s.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That opened up like a Nail salon.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Where she was doing people's nails. And now, stereotypically.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, nails are overrepresented.

[Kristoff]

There's weird ones. There are Chinese donut shops. Yeah. Like, why is a Chinese donut shop a thing?

[Mark Gagnon]

Something like 70% of hotels in United States are owned by someone with the last name Patel.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

So people just do the hustles. They know.

[Kristoff]

Right. And it's a 711 stereotype. It's whatever.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like Somali dudes selling bags on Canal Street. Yeah. I mean, like, so, like, unless you ever learn a different hustle, you don't ever get out.

[Kristoff]

Like, there's a clear example. You go, my Somali father did this. His uncle did this. You know, it makes perfect sense.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you just have a path into it. And so without ever someone else ever showing you how to get out of that. That line, like, you just never learned, which is why.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. It's interesting, too, because I don't know if I've never felt that way really.

[Mark Gagnon]

About what?

[Kristoff]

Like, there was a specific thing drawn out for me. I think that's more of an immigrant experience.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I think it's like, how isolated.

[Kristoff]

Like, Greek diners or whatever, you know?

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, my community growing up was not isolated at all.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, I grew up and I saw people that were lawyers. I saw people that worked at, you know, a trucking company, various jobs, and there was an entire, you know, spectrum of career options.

[Kristoff]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

So I was like, oh, I could do anything.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And it never occurred to me that I could be a drug dealer. I never knew a drug dealer. Like, it was never even on the.

[Kristoff]

Never knew a drug dealer.

[Mark Gagnon]

Not till I was, like, 19.

[Kristoff]

Really?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Not in high school.

[Mark Gagnon]

Never knew. I mean, I was aware of, like, the kid, but no one at my school sold pot. I mean, maybe, like, on the low, but, like, they weren't.

[Kristoff]

Oh, really?

[Mark Gagnon]

They weren't. Like, I went to a private school.

[Kristoff]

That's interesting. Well, I thought the private schools would be more like, you know, I knew.

[Mark Gagnon]

A couple kids, but all the kids that went to my school that were like, drugs.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

They were expelled from a different school.

[Kristoff]

Interesting.

[Mark Gagnon]

And they were there to be. To clean up.

[Kristoff]

Oh, interesting. No, I knew so many kids who sold drugs.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

But they still. Pot, you know.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Nothing crazy, but, like, I don't know. I never knew that hustle. So it was never really going to be, like, a thing.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. You know, I could never sell pot, though. You could scared.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, you could.

[Kristoff]

I feel like all the kids who sold pot were very social. I wasn't Social enough, You gotta have a lot of phone numbers.

[Mark Gagnon]

My social anxiety is really holding up my drug.

[Kristoff]

It would be. I'd be like, where do you want to meet? Oh, that sounds stupid. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So what's interesting about Universe 25? Like we said before, not his first universes.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Is it the 25th?

[Mark Gagnon]

It's the 25th. So literally, there's universe three where he finds out about, like, the social collapse kind of thing. In universe three, infant mortality reached 96%.

[Kristoff]

What do you do in universe three?

[Mark Gagnon]

It's basically the same thing.

[Kristoff]

Experiment.

[Mark Gagnon]

Same experiment.

[Kristoff]

Just, like, he's repeated it many times.

[Mark Gagnon]

And it was just, like, smaller and for shorter durations. Universe 13 is where he found out about, like, the. The Omega males. And he just kind of, like, kept on recreating these experiments and just changing.

[Kristoff]

Little details and seeing how it changed the universes.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Universities.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't know if he did another one after. After 25, but that was, like, the. Seemed like the most popular opus.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That everyone kind of. Kind of.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Grabbed onto.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't know. I don't know what to make, but it's very disturbing. Yeah. I do think it's important for people to jump into their immediate communities.

[Kristoff]

Absolutely.

[Mark Gagnon]

Dude. This is something that Sebastian Younger, the guy that made Restrepo, you ever seen that documentary? Yeah, he has. I talk about this all the time, but I think it's so true. True. He's like, dudes get PTSD when they leave the military. Not only from the things that they see, but once they return to regular society. Because they lose community.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

They lose a mission, like a purpose.

[Kristoff]

Oh, God.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then they lose competency.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. So, like, Christ, it's horrible.

[Mark Gagnon]

When you're in the military. You have, like, your boys that are always with you, people checking in on you, seeing if you're okay.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

You have, like, a real goal. Whether it's like, I'm gonna make money for my family, I'm gonna serve my country. I'm gonna stop, you know.

[Kristoff]

Right. Or even it's just the immediate goal of going, we're going to the. This.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Kristoff]

War zone, and we have to do this.

[Mark Gagnon]

Someone tells me what to do, and I know what to do. And then I'm the most competent person within my platoon to do this specific thing.

[Kristoff]

Like, I'm the sniper guy. I'm the.

[Mark Gagnon]

And everyone else is like, yo, Kristoff is the guy that does this.

[Kristoff]

Right. We all depend on him for that.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then you come back to America where you have no real community.

[Kristoff]

No what are you going to do? Sell insurance too?

[Mark Gagnon]

And yeah, you have a job you don't give a about and you're not even that good at it.

[Kristoff]

No, you're not selling.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And your competence doesn't. Isn't like this one to one thing. I think that one of the worst things about, you know, modern society is detachment from results within workplaces. And that's why I think, like, the trades have had this sort of like, at least in image renaissance, you know, people going, like, it's important, like, if you can weld, that's great. Like that's a good. You know, before it was like, go to college, get. Get an office job. That's better.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

Because it makes more money and it's easier. But now people are like, no, they're seeing real virtue and meaning in, you know, whatever it is. Windows, masonry, the outcome of their work.

[Mark Gagnon]

At the end of the day, dude.

[Kristoff]

Literally building a brick wall and then going, look at that wall I made is. Is like key for life.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And you know who said something about that? Karl Marx got your ass.

[Mark Gagnon]

Damn, dude.

[Kristoff]

Damn. I'm talking about the, the sort of alienation from special, like, because specialized becoming specialized makes you alienated. So like, you know, in Marx's time, he saw the industrial revolution. So you see the difference between like, cottage industry, where it's like, I'm the guy who makes clothes and I, A to A to B clothes, like, you know, A to Z clothes. Rather like, you know, I get the wool, I put it together, I have my own loom, I do all my own shit. Now there's a shirt. Shirt. And at the end there's a shirt. But then you go to the shirt factory and you're like, I'm the guy who puts a button, puts one button on, and if I die, one button. And then, yeah, if I die, I'm completely replaceable and meaningless.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

So, yeah, that idea, I think, is very important about work.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I think that's true. So I guess like, those three things. Find a thing that makes.

[Kristoff]

So you're kind of like a Marxist podcaster.

[Mark Gagnon]

You'd say, I'm not far off. Not far off. Real DOS capital. And you're like, dude, maybe I'm a fucking. Yeah. But no, I. I think like, immediate community. Find people you actually like and pour into them, whether it's family or friends or whatever.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then find a thing you're competent at that you really love and then have like a greater mission in life. Whether it's like being a great dad, being A good friend.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, whatever it is. Serving God. Amen.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then work out for health and not for impressing, you know? And then I don't try to eat good food and.

[Kristoff]

Yep.

[Mark Gagnon]

Get some sunlight. Eat a banana.

[Kristoff]

Yeah. Yeah. Put it up your butt.

[Mark Gagnon]

Basically all you need.

[Kristoff]

Make it come hard.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I mean, are you going to apply these things to your life?

[Kristoff]

Yeah, I'll probably freeze a banana and shove one up there.

[Mark Gagnon]

Dump your face in Saratoga water.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, dump my face in Saratoga water and wake up at 4am with a band aid on my nose for some reason. And then do a sick dive. And then say, we need at least 10,000 for some reason.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Kristoff]

And then have, like, a woman with long acrylic nails.

[Mark Gagnon]

White woman. Snow bunny.

[Kristoff]

Was it a white woman?

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, hell yeah. My dream snow bunny trader.

[Kristoff]

And then, you know, eat like a big plate of avocado toast with, like, weirdly maple syrup or something on it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Kristoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

You do that every day.

[Kristoff]

I do that every morning.

[Mark Gagnon]

Respect.

[Kristoff]

Well, let's wrap things up, huh?

[Mark Gagnon]

Ladies and gentlemen, that's been another episode of Camp Universe 25. Is Jacob into my core. And I think I'm fundamentally a different human being today than I was yesterday. But thank you guys so much for watching. Appreciate it.

[Kristoff]

Kristoff, Thanks a million.

[Mark Gagnon]

Thanks for joining us.

[Kristoff]

What's up? I'm Kristoff. Please listen to my podcast. It's called Rough. What's up? I'm Kristoff. Please listen to my podcast. It's called Rough Week. Thanks a million.

[Mark Gagnon]

We'll see you guys next time. Peace.

[Sponsor]

If you've made it to the end of this episode, you are clearly someone who understands that beneath every historical event lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered. You're the type of person who knows that real history is more fascinating than than any fiction. And we deeply appreciate that about you. I'll be honest, that's exactly why I personally invite you to sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter that goes beyond the surface of historical events. We dive into the stories that textbooks never told you, the secrets that challenge the course of nations, and the forgotten tales that deserve to be remembered. Let's continue this journey of discovery together. Take the conversation from your headphones into your inner inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History. Because every day holds a secret waiting to be revealed. Thank you for being part of our historical journey. We'll see you next time.