The Most Vile Betrayals of All Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: Camp Gagnon – "The Most Vile Betrayals of All Time"

Episode Information:

• Title: The Most Vile Betrayals of All Time
• Host: Mark Gagnon
• Release Date: June 10, 2025

---

Overview: In this gripping episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves deep into the annals of history to uncover and rank some of the most notorious backstabbers ever known. Through engaging discussions and insightful analysis, Mark and his co-host David Sanchez explore the motives, actions, and lasting impacts of these traitors, offering listeners a comprehensive look at betrayal’s role in shaping historical events.

---

1. Introduction to Betrayal in History

Mark sets the stage by emphasizing the unparalleled nature of betrayal compared to other immoral acts. Drawing from conversations with gangsters and criminals, he asserts that backstabbing has been pivotal in altering the course of empires and nations.

Mark Gagnon [00:50]: “Stealing from the elderly, committing tax fraud, kicking a pigeon. All of these things are immoral, unethical, evil. But none of them are as bad as backstabbing.”

---

2. Benedict Arnold: America’s Infamous Traitor

The episode kicks off with a detailed examination of Benedict Arnold, one of American history's most infamous betrayers. Mark recounts Arnold’s military prowess during the American Revolution and his subsequent descent into treason driven by perceived lack of recognition and personal grievances.

• Key Points:
  • Arnold’s significant contributions, including the capture of Fort Ticonderoga.
  • His financial struggles and personal motivations leading to betrayal.
  • The pivotal moment of his defection and subsequent actions against the American forces.
  • The tragic end of Arnold’s personal life alongside his wife, Peggy.

Mark Gagnon [08:51]: “After Benedict Arnold's defection to the British, Peggy remained together and moved to England. They faced societal disapproval but stayed united until her death in 1801.”

---

3. Marcus Junius Brutus: The Betrayal of Julius Caesar

Mark and David transition to ancient history, discussing Marcus Junius Brutus, the close friend and confidant of Julius Caesar, whose betrayal led to Caesar’s assassination.

• Key Points:
  • Brutus’s philosophical background and rise in Roman politics.
  • The political climate that led to fear of Caesar’s growing power.
  • The orchestration of the assassination on the Ides of March and its immediate aftermath.
  • The moral ambiguity surrounding Brutus’s actions—seen by some as protecting the Republic, yet ultimately leading to further turmoil.

Mark Gagnon [16:08]: “Brutus began his climb on the Cursus Honorium, but his involvement in Caesar’s assassination tarnished his legacy as a backstabber.”

---

4. La Malinche: A Complex Betrayal

The discussion shifts to La Malinche, a pivotal figure in the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire. Mark highlights her role as an interpreter and advisor to Hernán Cortés, examining whether her actions constitute betrayal or survival amidst colonial oppression.

• Key Points:
  • La Malinche’s background and circumstances leading to her alliance with the Spanish.
  • Her influence in bridging communication between the Spaniards and indigenous forces.
  • The moral complexity of her position—sold into slavery yet instrumental in the downfall of an empire.
  • David and Mark debate her placement on the betrayal spectrum, ultimately questioning whether her actions qualify as backstabbing.

David Sanchez [23:45]: “She’s one of the most important women in history.”

---

5. Robert Ford: The Betrayer of Jesse James

Mark delves into the Wild West, focusing on Robert Ford’s betrayal of the outlaw Jesse James. He narrates Ford’s motivations driven by greed and desire for notoriety, culminating in the infamous assassination.

• Key Points:
  • Ford’s relationship with Jesse James and the internal dynamics of the James gang.
  • The circumstances leading to Ford accepting a deal to kill James.
  • The public and legal repercussions Ford faced, including his eventual murder by Jesse’s brother, Frank James.
  • The moral judgment of Ford’s actions, labeling him as the ultimate backstabber for his betrayal of a friend.

Mark Gagnon [46:59]: “This guy's a rat. I mean, yeah, he's a rat.”

---

6. Vidkun Skilling: Betraying Norway to the Nazis

The conversation moves to World War II, examining Vidkun Skilling’s collaboration with Nazi Germany. Mark outlines Skilling’s political maneuvers to establish a puppet government, leading to severe consequences for Norwegian Jews and national sovereignty.

• Key Points:
  • Skilling’s political background and rise to power.
  • His efforts to align Norway with Nazi Germany, including the reinstatement of anti-Jewish laws.
  • The devastating impact of his actions on Norway’s Jewish population and national integrity.
  • Skilling’s eventual downfall, execution, and his enduring legacy as Norway’s top traitor.

Mark Gagnon [53:05]: “He betrayed Tipu Sultan and sold out Norway to the Nazis. That's going to put you at the top of my list.”

---

7. Jonathan Wild: England’s Greatest Criminal-Turned-Crimefighter

Mark introduces Jonathan Wild, an 18th-century English master criminal who uniquely navigated the line between crime and law enforcement. Wild’s manipulation and ultimate betrayal of his criminal peers highlight his duplicitous nature.

• Key Points:
  • Wild’s rise as a prominent criminal figure and his role as a “Thief Taker.”
  • His intricate schemes to catch criminals while simultaneously running his own criminal empire.
  • The paradox of Wild’s role—both dismantling and strengthening the criminal underworld.
  • His eventual capture and execution, solidifying his reputation as a master backstabber.

Mark Gagnon [31:05]: “He was stolen by the British, but he was secretly still a criminal. Completely stupid on their end.”

---

8. Aldrich Hazen Ames: A Modern-Day Traitor

Mark and David explore the case of Aldrich Hazen Ames, a former CIA officer who spied for the Soviet Union and later Russia, compromising numerous classified operations and agents.

• Key Points:
  • Ames’s background and rise within the CIA.
  • His motivations rooted in financial gain rather than ideological alignment.
  • The extent of the damage caused by his espionage, including national security breaches.
  • His arrest, trial, and life sentence, highlighting the severity of his betrayal.

Mark Gagnon [82:33]: “He pleaded guilty to 15 counts of espionage and was sentenced to 15 consecutive life sentences. And never gets to see his kids again.”

---

9. Francisco Pizarro: The Conquistador’s Double Cross

Mark concludes with Francisco Pizarro’s betrayal during the conquest of the Incan Empire. By seizing Emperor Atahualpa under false pretenses, Pizarro facilitated the collapse of a powerful indigenous civilization.

• Key Points:
  • Pizarro’s expedition and initial interactions with Atahualpa.
  • The deceitful tactics used to capture and kill the Incan emperor.
  • The subsequent subjugation and exploitation of the Incan population.
  • Pizarro’s bloody end, reinforcing his legacy as a ruthless betrayer.

Mark Gagnon [85:46]: “He killed Atahualpa after breaking his promise, solidifying his place as a top-tier backstabber in history.”

---

Conclusion: Ranking the Greatest Backstabbers

Throughout the episode, Mark and David engage in lively debates, ultimately ranking these historical figures based on the magnitude and impact of their betrayals. While opinions on certain figures like La Malinche and Agent Garbo vary, the consensus places individuals like Vidkun Skilling and Robert Ford at the pinnacle of treachery in history.

Final Rankings:

1. Vidkun Skilling – For betraying Norway to Nazi Germany, leading to the persecution of Jews and national downfall.
2. Robert Ford – For betraying Jesse James, marking the ultimate act of turning against a close friend.
3. Jonathan Wild – For his intricate betrayal within the criminal underworld while masquerading as a crimefighter.
4. Francisco Pizarro – For deceitfully capturing and killing Atahualpa, leading to the fall of the Incan Empire.
5. Benedict Arnold – For betraying the American Revolution out of personal grievances and greed.
6. Aldrich Hazen Ames – For compromising U.S. national security through espionage.
7. Marcus Junius Brutus – For the betrayal of Julius Caesar, albeit with some moral ambiguity.
8. La Malinche – Her role is complex and debated, positioned lower due to the nuances of her situation.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Gagnon [00:50]: “Stealing from the elderly, committing tax fraud, kicking a pigeon. All of these things are immoral, unethical, evil. But none of them are as bad as backstabbing.”
• David Sanchez [23:45]: “She’s one of the most important women in history.”
• Mark Gagnon [46:59]: “This guy's a rat. I mean, yeah, he's a rat.”
• Mark Gagnon [85:46]: “He killed Atahualpa after breaking his promise, solidifying his place as a top-tier backstabber in history.”

---

Closing Thoughts: Camp Gagnon’s episode on betrayal provides a multifaceted exploration of treachery across different eras and cultures. By examining the motives and consequences of each betrayal, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how individual actions can have profound and lasting impacts on history.

---

Note: This summary excludes all advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the episode's substantive discussions.

Transcript

[Mark Gagnon]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more. Summer's here, and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dressed season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy, too, with free shipping and free returns in store order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app. Stealing from the elderly, committing tax fraud, kicking a pigeon. All of these things are immoral, unethical, evil. But none of them are as bad as backstabbing. That's right. I've talked to many gangsters and professional criminals on this show, and all of them will tell you that no crime is worse than being a rat. Backstabbers have shaped the fate of empires around the world. And today we got a list of all of them, baby. And that's right, we're gonna be ranking the greatest backstabbers in history. I mean, we got everyone from Brutus, who murdered Jul, Julius Caesar, his close friend and confidant and a thirst for power, inventing the term backstabbing. We've got Benedict Arnold, who betrayed the American revolutionary forces and even led a British army to try to take back America. And we even got people like Vidkun Kisling, who sold out Norway to the Nazis. I mean, these people are very evil, but who is the most evil? Well, you're gonna have to tune in and find out. So if you are interested in the darkest, most evil betrayals in history, this is the episode for you. So sit back, watch your back, and welcome to camp. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to camp. This is the show where I explain the most interesting, fascinating, controversial topics from around the world and from all times to my dumbest friends. And oh, boy, today we got a real helmet junkie. All right, we got David Sanchez. What's up?

[David Sanchez]

Nothing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Enough. Gabe, how are you doing? Glad to hear it, my friend. I don't have my dumbest friend today. So you at home, the viewer, sitting at your cubicle or your shitty job. You could be my friend. I don't know. They probably, it's probably a shitty. Most jobs are shitty.

[David Sanchez]

What's the average job of your listener?

[Mark Gagnon]

I think the most. The average job of most listeners of podcasts are probably like, you work in.

[David Sanchez]

An office, okay, but what job. Every job is in an office.

[Mark Gagnon]

Most jobs, probably financial services, probably wealth management.

[David Sanchez]

You think the right minds that are managing the money of this country are listening to camp?

[Mark Gagnon]

If you look at the demographics of this podcast, it's primarily 10 blocks south.

[David Sanchez]

Life insurance salesman at best. There's people cold calling 73 year olds, talking about their life care policy, life insurance policy.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's a lot of stockbrokers, there's a lot of wealth management people, a lot of Goldman Sachs employees, and also a lot of con artists. There's an insane amount of con artists and then there's just a healthy amount of schizophrenics.

[David Sanchez]

Everyone comment what they do in the comments, please.

[Mark Gagnon]

That'd be great. Comment what you do. Also comment what you want to do and if. Maybe I can pair you up with the job.

[David Sanchez]

Wait four years and I'll hook it up.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I did that. I did that for David. David was walking around lost as hell. Hey man, I just need some advice. I just need. I just don't know where, where to go, man. I just. I think I'm destined for something great. I just, I can just feel it. I was like, yeah, dude, I don't know. Anyway, guys, also there's some slight construction happening outside that's going to be mitigated shortly, so bear with us. Is my collar popped? Yes. Am I wearing a camo soccer jersey? Also, yes. More importantly, there's merch available at campgoods Co. We have hoodies getting restocked any minute now. We also have whiskey bottles, barrels. Today we have an amazing topic. The greatest backstabbers in history. David, can you think of any off the top of your head?

[David Sanchez]

Miles McCrary for one.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, let's get Miles in the chat.

[David Sanchez]

Let's get a huge Miles in the chat, please. Benedict Arnold's like the catchphrase.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's a classic. Do you know what BDIX Arnold ever did? Didn't he?

[David Sanchez]

He was like espionage, right? Wasn't he giving our secrets to the Brits or something? Or vice versa.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, so naive. It's a good question. To be honest, I have no idea because I didn't do the research for this. This was done by my dear friend Zach.

[David Sanchez]

Shout out Zach.

[Mark Gagnon]

Good old southern country boy from Tupelo, Mississippi. He's a Protestant, but I still love him and he did a lot of the research. So I'm going to be learning along with all of you at home. Okay, now, let's begin with Benedict Arnold. This was a famous backstabber, a turncoat. During the American Revolution, 1741-1801, Benedict Arnold quickly established himself as one of George Washington's best generals. Realizing the strategic importance of securing New York, Arnold mustered a group of men and headed toward Fort Ticonderoga. Coordinating with Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain Boys, Arnold helped capture the fort for the patriots. Arnold suffered two battle wounds for the American cause in 1776, the first in a failed attack in Quebec and the second at the Battle of Saratoga. See? Failed attack in Quebec. That's what happens. French Canadians shout out to y' all. Arnold believed the Continental Congress insufficiently rewarded his efforts, especially considering his sacrifices. After being appointed Brigadier General, Arnold watched as Congress passed him over for the promotion to the post of five of major general five times in favor of his subordinates. Ouch. See, that's what happens when people are underappreciated. What do they do? They get crazy. Arnold had every intention of resigning from the military following these outrages, but not for Washington's insistence that he stay. He was rewarded in 1777 with a promotion to Major General and a post as military commander of Philly. Dude, you're the commander of Philly. That's sick as hell.

[David Sanchez]

He was already Philly. People are already scumbags back then. It's insane.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, wait, what do you have against Philly?

[David Sanchez]

We're going to keep doing this every episode. I don't like Argentinians and I don't like Philly fans. They're obnoxious.

[Mark Gagnon]

Speaking of which, Benedict Arnold's behavior eventually came to frustrate his relationships with other Continental officials. He feuded with several officers in the Continental Army. John Brown, James Easton. Probably heard of those guys. Benedict Arnold lived extravagantly in Philadelphia and also engineered a variety of business deals that earned him a reputation for questionable practices in his desperate desire to impress Edward Shippen. Who's Edward Shippen? He's a wealthy Philadelphia loyalist so that he could marry his 18 year old daughter Peggy. Peggy, that's like such an old name. Peggy is that short for anything? Can we search a Peggy short for anything? Pegasus, Pegasaurus. I don't know. Peggy is just such a wild name to like. Name your daughter Margaret. Peggy is a common, well known nickname for Margaret.

[David Sanchez]

Let's break this down, shall we?

[Mark Gagnon]

Let's look. How is that possible?

[David Sanchez]

It's like, how do you get dick from Richard?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, let's.

[David Sanchez]

That's a wild state.

[Mark Gagnon]

You just gotta ask. I mean, that's crazy. How do you get pegged from Margaret? Let's look down. Unlike Daisy and Peggy, it's definitely easy to see when nickname Maggie comes from Margaret. Yeah, that. What's kind of a. Over the years, Maggie morphed into Meggie and Meg, likely because of accents changing vowel sounds that continued to transform Peggy and Peg, which we know today simply based on the trend of creating nicknames that rhyme. Same as Bill from William.

[David Sanchez]

All right, so he was lobbying this guy so he can marry his daughter.

[Mark Gagnon]

And although he successfully secured Peggy's hand, Arnold's extravagance and imprudence ultimately drove him deep into debt. Continental officials could not confirm Arnold's suspected betrayal until 1780, when hard evidence of his treason was uncovered. The Americans captured Major John Andre, Arnold's British contact, who was in possession of paperwork revealing Arnold's treason. After receiving command of West Point, 1779, Arnold willingly provided the British with vital information for taking control of West Point. Andre was executed for his crimes, while Arnold managed to escape to England. Arnold would continue to serve in the military, only now he served the British agents against his former countrymen. In December, he led a force of British troops into Virginia, capturing Richmond and laying waste to the countryside. Arnold would die in 1801, leaving behind him a legacy of America's most notorious traitor.

[David Sanchez]

So he was a soy boy that didn't get promoted. And then.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I mean, this guy's just a scumbag. He's trying to bang out this. This girl drives himself into debt to live a lifestyle, you know what I mean? Trying to keep up with the Joneses. I get it. Trying to act like someone he wasn't. Okay, which. That is really the. The. I think the core, the lesson here, Just be yourself, guys. And if that means you got to marry some dog ugly girl, that's life. It's fine.

[David Sanchez]

Is there any girl that you would betray your country for? Oh, because she looks like a fucking piece. Look at that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, Peggy, shipping baddie. I mean, she got absolutely. I mean, did Benedict Arnold draw this? What is the other one? Go to that one. Yeah, come on.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, you can see some cleavage. She's hot.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, she's a. Are you kidding me?

[David Sanchez]

She's a Northeastern wasp.

[Mark Gagnon]

She's a standard issue bar skank. And you're going to trade out your whole country for that girl?

[David Sanchez]

Gosh, you probably stank.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, Box is probably crazy, though.

[David Sanchez]

So he Got passed up for promotions. And then he was trying to get garner some credit with this loyalist and wanted to his daughter. And then in doing so, put himself into debt.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. And then with that debt, I guess he needed a little bit of a deal. And then I'm assuming that the British probably paid him.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, I get it. This guy gets a bad rep.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, I get it, but also, like, go into debt. Other people went into debt, didn't sell out their country. And it's not like he was just some low level guy. He was basically about to be Major General. And then not only did he sell out his country like that I can understand. Sure. Okay. You're in a bad situation. You sell your country. He's leading a charge into Richmond for the British.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah. At that point, you got to dig in. Like you're already a turncoat. You might as well play.

[Mark Gagnon]

You don't have to dig in. You could go to England, but you're.

[David Sanchez]

Not going to go back.

[Mark Gagnon]

You and Peggy. Did he stay with Peggy? Can we figure that out? Because that's also this scumbag girl.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, hey. She's a nice lady. She eats well.

[Mark Gagnon]

We gotta see. Wow. I mean, okay. After Benedict Arl's defection to the British, Peggy remained together and moved to England. Wow. Even though they did face challenges in societal disapproval. That's crazy.

[David Sanchez]

You get the reputation as a turncoat, but you get a lifetime of box from Peggy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Living in London. I guess maybe it's worth it.

[David Sanchez]

Are we living in Camden Town?

[Mark Gagnon]

He had seven children. Oh.

[David Sanchez]

Peggy died of cancer. Huh?

[Mark Gagnon]

Rip, that's crazy, dude. I mean, that is a. That is a fascinating tale, kind of a beautiful love story.

[David Sanchez]

I like Benedict Arnold.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, you can't. Look, it's one thing to sell out your countries, like, with intelligence. It's another thing to start a raid and try to seize Richmond. You can't seize Richmond.

[David Sanchez]

Okay?

[Mark Gagnon]

You can't do it. I'm anti Benedict Arnold.

[David Sanchez]

Okay? I'm pro Benedict. Who we got next?

[Mark Gagnon]

All right. Also, should we rank them?

[David Sanchez]

How many do we have? Hey there, travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music great artist.

[Mark Gagnon]

BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live? With Priceline, you can get out of.

[David Sanchez]

Your dreams and into your dream concert.

[Mark Gagnon]

They've got millions of of travel deals.

[David Sanchez]

To get you to that festival gig, rave, sound bath, or sonic experience you've been dreaming of.

[Mark Gagnon]

Download the Priceline app today and you.

[David Sanchez]

Can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip.

[Mark Gagnon]

Book it with Priceline.

[David Sanchez]

Go to your happy price.

[Mark Gagnon]

Priceline pro baller Lonzo ball for buzzballs. Ready to go. Cocktails. Take 12. Buzz balls just dropped their biggest blue balls. Script says Biggie's Blue balls.

[David Sanchez]

Lonzo.

[Mark Gagnon]

Take 13. Blue balls just dropped their biggest buzz balls. Let's try a voc. Buzz balls, Biggies. Blue balls. Buzz balls. Biggies. Blue balls. Big balls just drop. Get blue balls. This season with buzz balls, please, you're responsibly. Buzz balls. Available in spirit, wine and malt, 15% alcohol by volume.

[David Sanchez]

Buzz Balls LLC, Carrollton, Texas.

[Mark Gagnon]

We have like 13.

[David Sanchez]

Okay, he goes at 13.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, I think, dude, he led a charge against the Americans.

[David Sanchez]

I did you. I don't care.

[Mark Gagnon]

How is that not an important detail if you're going to go into a country? I think we got to put him like eight.

[David Sanchez]

Okay, I can do eight.

[Mark Gagnon]

We can put him at eight. All right, let's do another one. Do you know any other famous turncoats?

[David Sanchez]

No. Gabe, what'd he say?

[Mark Gagnon]

You genius. Etu brute. The words uttered by Julius Caesar after he was stabbed in the back by one of his closest confidants, Marcus Junius Brutus. Brutus was born 85 BC. It says here in the text BCE. I don't say that I recognize that Christ is the one savior of the universe. He was born in Rome. And although there's many unanswered questions about the true identity of his father, it's believed to be the Roman commander Marcus Junius Brutus the Elder. Brutus surrendered to Pompey the Great and was executed. His mother was an outspoken, outspoken Servia, stepsister of the prominent orator and statesman Cato the Younger. That's interesting. He was accompanied. He accompanied Cato to Cyprus in 58 BC. The historian Plutarch wrote that Brutus was proficient in all facets of Greek philosophy, with particular fondness for the Platonists, the students of Plato.

[David Sanchez]

Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Barry Strauss, in his the Death of Caesar, wrote that his study of philosophy had added depth and garnered respect and allowed him to tap into time honored ideals. And so he began his career into politics. With Caesar's defeat of both the king of Pontius in the east and his success against Cato and Pompey. The Roman commander had entered the eternal city of Rome in a Roman triumph. Hailed as a hero, he was awarded the title of liberator, named the father of his country, and made council consul for 10 years. With the overwhelming support of the people and the Roman Senate Caesar initiated a number of reforms. Although praised at first for both his military skill and leadership, he gradually began to create fear in the minds of many people. Of those inside and outside the Senate, many came to believe he became more of a divine figure than a ruler. So this is right at the moment that like the end of the Republic, the beginning of the empire of Rome, where, like the emperors were taken over and Caesar was the first one to be like, hey, fuck this Republic. I'm running, I'm ruling for all time. I am God.

[David Sanchez]

Okay?

[Mark Gagnon]

Gradually inching away from the traditional values of the Republic, even though the Roman people believed that they no longer had a voice as their beloved Rome was quickly becoming. Under the rule of this tyrant, the seeds of conspiracy were born. The four principal leaders of the plot were. Gaius Tribonius. Was that your nickname? In high school, he organized the siege of Massilia and fought with Caesar in Spain. Decimus Brutus was one of Caesar's former commanders. Gaius Cassius Longinus.

[David Sanchez]

Muhammad Ali.

[Mark Gagnon]

Muhammad Ali was his other name. And then Marcus Junius Bruce. With the leadership established, they had to decide where to attack. On a highway, public space. While he was walking home, maybe a gladiatorial game finally was decided to attack him. During the session of the Senate, to be held at the theater of Pompey. The date would be March 15th. Also known as the Ides of March. You fucking idiot.

[David Sanchez]

That's not a thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

The Ides of March. You never heard of this?

[David Sanchez]

What is that?

[Mark Gagnon]

This is the. The.

[David Sanchez]

Without looking at your screen, what is the Ides of March?

[Mark Gagnon]

The Ides of March was the day that Julius caesar was murdered. March 15th. If he left on his campaign, he would become untouchable. Away from Rome and surrounded by his loyal army. The attackers had to strike quickly. They even chose their weapon. A double edged dagger. A pugio of about 20 centimeters, 8 inches. You could say. It's not that big. Double what? Wait, what?

[David Sanchez]

It's not that big.

[Mark Gagnon]

Eight inches?

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, it's normal.

[Mark Gagnon]

Soft.

[David Sanchez]

It's average.

[Mark Gagnon]

Before we continue, we have to remember. Brutus began his climb on the Cursus Honorium, the sequence of Roman government offices, as Caesar took his seat at the theater of Pompey. There were 200 senators in attendance that day, along with 10 tribunes, slaves and secretaries. Cimber approached the unsuspecting Caesar and handed him a petition on behalf of his exiled brother. Cimber grabbed at Caesar's toga and pulled it back. It was a signal for the others to attack. Casca dealt the first blow with his Knife. Caesar immediately tried to defend himself by raising his hands to cover his face. The remaining conspirators surrounded Caesar. Lastly, Brutus approached, drew his dagger, and took a couple jabs at Caesar. Ironically, Caesar died at the foot of the statue of Pompey. Oh, wow.

[David Sanchez]

Is it Pompey or Pompey?

[Mark Gagnon]

Pompey, I believe, is the former. Was it Roman monarch or maybe he was a senator, I can't remember. But yeah, Brutus, apparently one of Caesar's boys. They were friends for a long time, but yet wasn't enough to stop him from taking him out.

[David Sanchez]

This is a backstab, but it's not. It's not like this. It is a huge betrayal, but like, not in the worst way.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's not crazy because it's like, yo, Caesar was trying to become a God. He was trying to become emperor forever. So at a certain point you got to be like, oh, this guy's trying to become a tyrant.

[David Sanchez]

When you inevitably develop a God complex because camp is like the biggest show in the world and you start doing your morals and your teachings to people around you and say, I'm God, I'm gonna kill you.

[Mark Gagnon]

And I would respect that because in my death I'll become a martyr and I'll be praised for generations to come. Yeah, you can kill a man, David.

[David Sanchez]

You can't kill an idea, but you.

[Mark Gagnon]

Could kill an idea. I think if you kill all the people that have the idea, right? I mean, there's probably so many ideas. I mean, there's all these ancient religions that just don't exist anymore because all the people just got murdered.

[David Sanchez]

Some German leader said that in the forties. Forgot about that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Who was it? The Kaiser Wilhelm?

[David Sanchez]

Yes.

[Mark Gagnon]

All right. Yeah, that one's. I don't know, Brutus. Like, I know he's known as a backstabber. Literally. Like, I think that's where the term stab me in the back came from. Yeah, so I think he's just kind of like the og, but I don't think he's even that bad.

[David Sanchez]

I think he's not as bad as Benedict, cuz he didn't do it for any pussy. He just did it for the love of the game. And I feel like, yeah, like, as.

[Mark Gagnon]

Far as backstabbing morals go, it seems like it's kind of principled.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, it was warranted.

[Mark Gagnon]

How close was. Was Brutus and Caesar?

[David Sanchez]

Like, how, how much boys they were?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, like, were they like homie homies? Like, were they super, super tight? Like, this is interesting. How, how right or wrong was Brutus when he decided to kill Caesar. On a theoretical level, since Caesar was subverting the republican government structure, you could argue the Brutus and the liberators were in the right. They were eliminating an existential threat to the Republic. However, the Republic that they believed themselves to be restoring ceased existing sometime after the Plutonic and the Macedonian wars. Nothing in their plans even remotely addressed the problems that gave to Marius, Pompey's and Caesar's the late Republic, conveniently as well. The primary beneficiaries of Caesar's death, the restoration of the public, would be the liberators themselves, certainly not the Roman population. So it seems like on the one hand, they were justified, but not because they wanted to protect the Republic, but because they wanted to become the emperors themselves.

[David Sanchez]

Okay, but if they become the emperors and then they restore, like, republican values, then if.

[Mark Gagnon]

But that didn't even happen. I'm pretty sure after that the empire continued on. And then I'm pretty sure it was Caesar's son that eventually took the throne.

[David Sanchez]

Who was that?

[Mark Gagnon]

I forget his name. But I'm pretty sure after this they had like four good emperors in a row. So everything was like, actually pretty chill.

[David Sanchez]

You said Caesar usurped Pontius? That Pontius Pilate?

[Mark Gagnon]

No, no, Pontius Pilate was just a local consulate to the greater Judean area.

[David Sanchez]

He's the real enemy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right?

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, there's that one phrase, you know, you wash your hands with it, you leave it be. That's rapacious.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, exactly. I've washed my hands. What is truth? Has this man sinned against the Roman Republic? They thought, yes. Unfortunately, they killed him.

[David Sanchez]

Who's they?

[Mark Gagnon]

Nothing. Donna Marina, also known as La Malinche. You ever heard of this? Nope. 1500s, there's little comprehensive document documentation. Mark. Sorry to interrupt.

[David Sanchez]

What's the ranking?

[Mark Gagnon]

That's a great question, Gabe. I'm gonna put that low. I mean, like 10, 11.

[David Sanchez]

That's fine.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, I don't think, like. Look, he's just an og. He started the whole thing. But I don't think is actually worthy of being that high in the rankings. Personal bias. Now, La Malinche, there's little comprehensive documentation about La Malinche. What? Historians? No. Has been stitched together through mentions of her in various contemporary writings. Cortez himself referred to her just briefly in his letters and only identified her as an interpreter.

[David Sanchez]

Her nun.

[Mark Gagnon]

Her nun?

[David Sanchez]

Oh, I know this person.

[Mark Gagnon]

La Malinche was born Malinal, the daughter of an Aztec chief. This gave her the unusual level of education which she would later leverage as a guide interpreter for The Spanish. After her father's death, she was sold to slavers by her mother. Her mother then staged a funeral to explain her daughter's sudden disappearance. Damn. Whatever this girl does, I think is justified. She was the daughter of a chief and then sold into slavery.

[David Sanchez]

I actually know way more about this girl than I thought.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, feel free to chime in.

[David Sanchez]

I'm going to.

[Mark Gagnon]

According to historians, the traders eventually sold Malinal to Kachique in Tabasco, of hot sauce fame, where she lived until Cortez arrived in 1519. The caqiche presented Cortez with a group of young women to serve him, including Malinal. She quickly distinguished herself. The Spanish gave her the respectful name Donna Marina, while the Aztecs attached an honorary addendum of Zinn to her name, making her Mal Zinn. This episode is brought to you by nicotine. The greatest. The greatest. I mean the fact that Zin is named after an Aztec chief. I mean that's sick as hell. Malin. Zinn Tzin that. It's got to be Zen. There were two moments when La Malinche directly saved the Spanish conistors from destruction. Once in. How do you say it?

[David Sanchez]

Chalaka.

[Mark Gagnon]

Chalaka. Her astute observations led her to uncover the indigenous conspiracy against Cortez. Another time, La Malinche befriended an old woman who led her to crucial information about a dangerous impending attack from Montezuma. Armed with this information, Cortez decided to change his plans and circumvent Cholula before proceeding directly to Tenochitlan. The change astonished the natives and further persuaded them of the Spaniards mystical powers. On these and other occasions, La La Malinche's presence made the decisive difference between life or death. La Malinche left no records of her own life. What we know of her depends entirely on secondhand accounts or historians interpretations. But all the stories of La Malinche's life, both damning and sympathetic, ultimately revealed as a particularly intelligent, resourceful woman. Betrayed, enslaved and buffeted between two empires. I'll be honest, this doesn't even seem like a backstab.

[David Sanchez]

No, she's one of the most. She's one of the most important women in history.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean. No, seriously. Depending on important.

[David Sanchez]

So when Cortez arrived on the coast of. Of Mexico, they had found another Spanish conquistador from a prior example expedition, okay, who was stranded and was like taken into captivity by another Mexican tribe. He spoke a certain language. They find him, they go on and defeat another tribe. They. They get the women, this woman as a. As a prize. And then she can translate from the language that the former conquistador speaks into hers, and then back to Cortez. So this made it possible for this trip not only to be about trade, but diplomacy. So that's why Cortez is like, this girl's so important. Let's burn the boats. We're gonna go to Montezuma, and we're gonna get all the gold they have.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[David Sanchez]

So without her, Cortez and, you know, the. The fall of the Aztec Empire doesn't happen.

[Mark Gagnon]

But she's the daughter of a chief.

[David Sanchez]

Who sold her into slavery. Him.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Why was she sold to slavery? Can we figure that out?

[David Sanchez]

She was just being a.

[Mark Gagnon]

If that's the case, then. I don't know. It seems like everyone's bad here.

[David Sanchez]

Well, Cortez loved her like she was a beautiful woman and. And he kept her like he was his most trusted, like, advisor at some point.

[Mark Gagnon]

Can we get a photograph of her? Potentially.

[David Sanchez]

She wasn't that great on the eyes, but, you know.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, can we. Can we see. Wait, hold on, hold on. That was important. Gabe. Sorry. She was likely sold to slavery as a young girl, possibly by her mother and stepfather. Secure an inheritance for her half brother and then trade it to the Maya who later gave her to the Spanish. Oops, can't do that. That's dumb as hell. Yeah, you have, like, a super important asset you're going to trade.

[David Sanchez]

It's a bad photo of her.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, she looks. Go to the one where she looks a bit Asian.

[David Sanchez]

She looks hot in that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, she looks.

[David Sanchez]

There you go.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh. Oh. I mean, dude, have you seen. You've seen. You've seen Ro Del Dorado?

[David Sanchez]

Never.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, yeah, that girl actually. Remember when I said Topanga was my first crush?

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Not true.

[David Sanchez]

Topang is still my first crush.

[Mark Gagnon]

Chell. Chell from the road to El Dorado. Can we get a picture of Chell?

[David Sanchez]

My neighborhood growing up is El Dorado, so that's why I watched that movie, so.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, really? It's one of my all time favorite movies. I think it's so funny. And this girl. Oh, I mean, an absolute piece and a half. And. Yeah. Can you search chell rule 34?

[David Sanchez]

Can you look up chell naked on chell rule 34?

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh.

[David Sanchez]

Did you jerk off?

[Mark Gagnon]

And this is what it's all about, ladies and gentlemen.

[David Sanchez]

We can't show this on YouTube.

[Mark Gagnon]

Can't show it on YouTube, but I will put a link in the description. That was me in my dreams.

[David Sanchez]

All the listeners. Look, I'm chill. 34.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, come on, bro. Are you Kidding me. I mean, this girl was an absolute dime. I mean, whatever it takes. I mean, this girl's fire.

[David Sanchez]

Are you sure that's gonna fit? Disgusting.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's not what you guys think. Anyway. Someone made this. Isn't that crazy? Like an artist. Like, put this all together.

[David Sanchez]

You, bro.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, no, no. I don't have this type of talent. If I did, I wouldn't be here in this tent, I can promise you that. I mean, yeah, I. I put this girl low. I'll be honest.

[David Sanchez]

14.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Like the 13. Whatever. The lowest. Whatever it is. Like, it seemed like she completely had a justifiable reason. Her own country sold her out. And then she just. I don't know, was resourceful and tried not to get murdered.

[David Sanchez]

It was funny how Cortez did it. So every time they came across a tribe, they had a field, like, where their loyalty lied, where it's like, if it was a tribe that's like, yo, Montezuma's taxing the shit out of us. He's like, oh, we hate Montezuma. And if they came a tribe that's like, we owe everything to him, they'd be like, hey, we're going to trade. We love him. We're going to treat us nicely.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[David Sanchez]

He kept lying to each tribe. As they get more inland, I mean, there's a good book about this. I think I gave it to you, like, a year ago.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's it called?

[David Sanchez]

Conquistador.

[Mark Gagnon]

Who's a.

[David Sanchez]

By Dan Levy.

[Mark Gagnon]

See, you're gonna listen to that Account of history or book? Like who? Even Who. Like what is even? You know what I mean? It's a great book. Maybe I'll check it out.

[David Sanchez]

I never finished it.

[Mark Gagnon]

But you didn't. When'd you stop? Buddy Levy.

[David Sanchez]

Buddy Levy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Buddy Levy.

[David Sanchez]

Buddy Levy or Buddy Levi, however you pronounce it, It's a phenomenal book, Buddy.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's his real name, Margaret? His real name is Richard. They called him. They called him Dick, and he's like, all right, Buddy, buddy. All right. Jonathan Wild. You ever heard of this guy? Nope. He was an 18th century English master criminal who reigned over an underground kingdom of thieves and high highwaymen in far flung extortion rackets, and was Britain's biggest fence for stolen goods. After he feigned reform, the authorities turned to Wild, given him the title Thief Taker, and set him loose on the criminals running amok terrorizing London. Oh, this is like a Dexter kind of vibe. This is cool. Wild took his new job and title with a passion, forming highly effective teams of thief Catchers who fell upon the criminals with a will. Breaking with a will, breaking up gangs and sending criminals into the gallows by the dozens. During his thief catching career, at least 120 were executed based on Wild's testimony and information he furnished. He furnished the authorities. Wow. So that's crazy. So this guy was a criminal that then was hired by the feds to catch criminals so he would turn his.

[David Sanchez]

Back to the streets.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't care.

[David Sanchez]

William Abagdale.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Wait, what did he do? Catching Japan. Yeah, but he wasn't catching criminals.

[David Sanchez]

Yes he was. Are you stupid?

[Mark Gagnon]

I guess at the very end he then started working for the feds. Yeah, but did he catch any criminals?

[David Sanchez]

Thousands.

[Mark Gagnon]

He got 120 of them executed.

[David Sanchez]

Precisely.

[Mark Gagnon]

Maybe. He also set up a side business as a private detective recovering stolen goods for a fee. He failed to inform his clients that it was his thieves who had stolen their goods in the first place. And their coverage simply came down to Wild's sifting through the warehouse of stolen property. All right, that just seems like gang activity.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Far from having gone legit, Wild had hoodwinked everybody. And the thief catcher became an even bigger kingpin, ridding himself of competitors by delivering them to the authorities. Oh, this guy is brilliant. I love this. I cannot believe this is not an HBO miniseries. He was finally brought down when a criminal double crossed by Wild accused him of fencing stolen goods. An investigation confirmed this malfeasance and Wild was arrested. At which point many of his underlings turned Crown evidence against him until his whole scheme of sim. Of simul. Of simultaneously.

[David Sanchez]

Jesus Christ, bro.

[Mark Gagnon]

Guys, no, we can out of that, right?

[David Sanchez]

No.

[Mark Gagnon]

Of simultaneously being England's greatest crime fighter and greatest criminal came out. He was swiftly tried, convicted and hung at Tyburn, where he had sent so many others to their doom. I don't know, this one is interesting. I mean, it just seems like general, like criminal behavior. It's not like, oh, you were my best friend and I turned my back on you, you know what I mean?

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, he was like a rival gang that he just turned in.

[Mark Gagnon]

It just seems like gang activity back in the day. I mean, a sick story. I mean, this guy's cool as hell, to be honest, but let's find out. Jonathan Wild in 18th century England. Let's see, let's see if he's a man from the ends. Nope.

[David Sanchez]

Wagwan General.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, he was busted though. He was a white Englishman and a prominent finger in London's criminal underworld. The thief taker. I mean, this guy is awesome. I. I I mean, I don't know, the British should have been a little bit more shrewd to know, like, oh, this guy's literally still a criminal.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And he's going to keep on doing criminal activity and no one's going to look into him. I mean, completely stupid on their end that if you're going to set up a criminal to do the job of the crown, you're not going to just, I don't know, look into it a little bit.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, you missed the port. And the funny part, you would accept bribes to let these out of jail, selectively arrest criminals and coerce sexual services from molly houses.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whoa, what are molly houses? Let's look up a molly house, please. And search Rule 34. I can't believe you've never heard of Rule 34.

[David Sanchez]

What is Rule 34?

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm chronically online. I guess this is a. Rule 34 is basically that if, if anything exists that there's already pornography of it. And if you just search Rule 34, you'll find the pornography of it.

[David Sanchez]

Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like no tears. No tears shampoo. You've heard of this Search no tears.

[David Sanchez]

No, no. I want you to read what Gabe just looked up because it's hysterical.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay, we're gonna get back to rolling for. A molly house is a term for a meeting place, often a tavern or a coffee house.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Where homosexual men and gender non conforming individuals congregated for social interaction and potential sexual encounters. Whoa, you're telling me that jaw of the wild was swinging both ways? The thief taker was taken and giving respect. That is, I mean, just to add to the interest and intrigue of this master criminal. Anyway, I'm gonna put this guy wild. Still low. Probably like 10 or something. Yeah, I think 10 is reasonable.

[David Sanchez]

That's fair.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's up guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because your food sucks. That's right. We live in a country where unfortunately a lot of food we eat. Even if you try to eat clean, it's got pesticides and seed oils and who knows what else is in your, you know, your Caesar wrap. And that is why it important to supplement your food. This is what I do on a daily basis and I do it with Symbiotica. Yes, I love Symbiotica because it is the easiest way for me to supplement my food and get all the nutrients that I need that I should be getting for my food. But unfortunately I don't because, you know, the world and capitalism or whatever. But with Symbiotica, I'm able To get my magnesium, which I take every single night, that helps me to sleep. I take my colostrum, which is great for my gut health. It helps my skin and it gives me an immune boost. And the thing that I'm most excited about is mineral shilajit. Shilajit is an ancient mineral resin that literally comes from the Himalayas. It sounds crazy, but it's not. It's right here in this little jar. Just a little dab into some warm water. And since I've been taking it, I mean, it's full of like fulvic acid, you know, trace minerals, all the stuff you should be getting from your food, but you're not. And since I've been taking it, I feel sharper, my energy is more consistent and stable. I'm not reaching for the third coffee. Instead, the shilajit keeps me locked in. Another thing I love about Symbiotica is that instead of taking a handful of pills and people look at you like a crazy person, they just, they actually get curious. They see you taking awesome little liquid gel pack that tastes amazing and they go, oh, what? What is that? What are you taking right there? And I tell them I'm taking my Symbiotica for my health because I'm trying to live till I'm 180 years old. So if you're interested in reclaiming your health for the summer, feeling better, having more stable energy, and doing it in the tastiest way possible, go to symbiotica.com camp. Use the promo code camp and you will get 20% off your order and free shipping. If you go to symbiotica.com camp or click on, you know the description, you'll see the links right there or even in the bottom of this banner. Now let's get back to what's up guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you about a dirty little secret, okay? The insurance industry doesn't want you to know this. Well, basically what the insurance companies do is that they profit by holding onto your money as long as possible. You pay them every month, and then eventually when an accident happens, they try to deny or delay your claim so that they can keep their profits going. I mean, it goes even worse when in court. The insurance companies want jurors to think that the at fault driver, you know, a mom that rear ends someone, you know, she's a single mom and they think that she is going to be paying the verdict amount. Meanwhile, it's really the insurance companies who are going to be covering the cost. And that's what I want to tell you about the good folks over at Morgan and Morgan, because they will take on the case, and they are almost always going after the big insurance companies and not the individuals at fault. Morgan and Morgan fights hard for their clients, and these corporations know that, and it pisses them off. A recent client in Pennsylvania just received $29 million. The insurer's best offer, 500,000. Yeah. There's another client in Florida that received $20 million, and the last offer from the insurance company was $0. There's a reason why Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. So if you are ever injured or dealing with an insurance company that doesn't want to pay up their fair share, you could go check out Morgan and Morgan. That's right. Hiring the wrong law firm can be disastrous. And hiring the right law firm could, you know, be a big, substantial increase to your settlement. And Morgan and Morgan makes it so easy to get started. Their fee is free. Unless they win, there's literally no risk. Unless they win your case, you're not paying a dime. With Morgan, Morgan, it's never been easier. I'm telling you. You just go to. For the people dot com. That's right. F O r the people dot com and use the code Gagnon. G A G N O N or dial pound law. That's pound529. That's for the people.comgagnon. or dial pound law. That's pound 529. And this is a paid advertisement. Now, ladies and gentlemen, let's get back to the show. Mar Siddiq in the late 18th century. You ever heard of this guy?

[David Sanchez]

Never.

[Mark Gagnon]

He held the position of minister in the cabinet of Tipu Sultan of mysore in the Fourth Anglo Mysore War at the late 1700s. He betrayed Tipu Sultan during the siege of. A word that I cannot pronounce, paving the way for a British victory during the siege. Although. Oh, although the invading troops were starving, Mar Siddiq withdrew his troops, allowing the British to commence their attack on the fort. He betrayed Tipu, killing Tipu loyalist Ghazan Khan and later arranged to have Tipu trapped behind locked doors. Sadiq was killed by some of the dismayed Mysorean troops immediately following the defeat as he attempted to go over to welcome the British. That is a direct straight up. Yeah, that's a straight up backstab. Yeah, that's crazy. He was the miniature. He was the minister of the cabinet of Tipu Sultan betrayed him and let the British invade and take Over.

[David Sanchez]

How do you spell this guy's name?

[Mark Gagnon]

M I, R S A D I Q. Wow.

[David Sanchez]

Sadiq.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, you can't do that. That's. That's gonna put them high up on the list, to be honest with you. Wow. Even today, tourists pelt the spot where Mir Siddiq was killed. His mausoleum, also located in this city, has regularly been assaulted by shoes thrown by visitors over the years. Presently is in a severe state of disrepair, rarely visited, and the lands have since encroached. Can you look up his A. So this is his mausoleum.

[David Sanchez]

Why was he honored with such high regard if he was a backstabber?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I don't know. We gotta. We gotta figure out why he side with. Sided with. The.

[David Sanchez]

Following his death, Siddiq's body was mutilated, exhumed and defiled for over two weeks by the angered general public, including women and children dismayed at his betrayal of Tipu Sultan, forcing the administration to impose strong measures. Even today, tourists pelt the spot where Mir Siddiq was killed. That would be a fun trip idea. Like, hey, we're going to South India. We're going to degrade a tombstone and.

[Mark Gagnon]

We'Re allowed to like, they.

[David Sanchez]

It's encouraged.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, they actually want us to do this. This is, this is great. All these, like, tourists to go around the world and like, do dumb shit like, oh, we've like, you know, vandalized the pyramids or like we climbed the steps of like tenocheetlon or some shit.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hey, just go to South India and you ruin this guy's tomb and everyone cheer you on.

[David Sanchez]

Hey, babe, we're going to India. You're going to see Taj Mahal. Even better.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, we're going to see Mar. We're going to throw our. She's bringing shoes and we're going to chuck them over there. I mean, that's awesome. But unfortunately I'm going to give this guy that's a pretty high rating. I'm going to give him like a three.

[David Sanchez]

Three big booms.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think that's three. You got to give him three big booms. I mean, look, he sold out the Indians to the British. Like, there's no worse people you could sell out.

[David Sanchez]

So apparently the Brits were like, starving and they were like on. On the down before he did this. So they must have got. He must have gotten an incredible offer.

[Mark Gagnon]

Must have.

[David Sanchez]

You want to live in Birmingham? We got a. Lads, we got a great house for you in Liverpool. It's going to be class.

[Mark Gagnon]

We got a Flat Saf, Liverpool.

[David Sanchez]

You're going to love it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I mean I cannot believe that he would sell out his entire country for that. That's got to be a high ranking.

[David Sanchez]

I, I don't feel comfortable putting him at three because we don't know what he got in return.

[Mark Gagnon]

How much does that change it though? Like, I mean, money. He got given money.

[David Sanchez]

I would betray you for a free can of Zins.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's not true.

[David Sanchez]

That is true.

[Mark Gagnon]

What type of betrayal?

[David Sanchez]

I don't know.

[Mark Gagnon]

You would sell me down the river. What is it? Where does that come from?

[David Sanchez]

Sell you down the river?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. That's gotta be racist.

[David Sanchez]

It's gotta be in the list.

[Mark Gagnon]

Gotta be racist. Like there's no like every great American like little idiom definitely comes from some racist shit.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

All right, so slaves being sold down to Mississippi to work as laborers and con plantations. Right? Again, racist. I'm telling you, dude, all of our little like long time no see.

[David Sanchez]

What's that from?

[Mark Gagnon]

You never heard that?

[David Sanchez]

Is that like Helen Kelly search?

[Mark Gagnon]

Long time no see. Is that some Chinese etymology? You've heard people say long time no see, right?

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, of course.

[Mark Gagnon]

Long time no see likely originated from pidgin English. Possibly a loan translation from the Chinese phrase meaning long time no see or as a mimicry of Native American pigeon language. Robert Ford, 1862-1892. Best known as the dirty little coward. Robert Newton Ford. Dirty little coward. I mean that's a sick. I'm gonna use that tonight when I'm dirty talking. He was born in 1891 in Ray County, Missouri, one of seven seven children from James Thomas Ford. The wiry young boy became enamored with the daring exploits of the outlaw Jesse James and finally got a chance to meet him. In 1880, he and his older brother Charles began to hang out on the outer fridges of the James gang. By this time, the ranks of outlaw gang members had been diminishing due to deaths, captures and men going to molly houses. Also simply moving on to other endeavors. That's hilarious that your gang is getting like poached. Like they're just like doing like it work. Like yeah dude, I'm just, you know, working in a cubicle. So when the two brothers want to join the gang, Jesse let them. However, neither played a very large role. 1881, Jesse moved his wife and family to St. Joseph, Missouri, renting a house in the name of J.D. howard. Acting as a member of the respective community, Jesse had plans of taking up a straight and narrow life. However, he wanted to pull off one last bank robbery of a bank in Platte County, Missouri, in hopes of making enough money to retire and become a gentleman farmer. He just wanted one more big hit. And I promise, baby, we're going to be out of this game once and for all, okay? But the state of Missouri had had enough. And about the same time, Missouri Governor Thomas Crittenden put up a reward of 10,000 big ones for any information leading to the capture of Jesse James.

[David Sanchez]

What year is this?

[Mark Gagnon]

This is 1881. So January 1882. Two James gang members, Wood Hite and Dick Little. There's no way that's his name. Dick Little. Can we get a picture of Dick Little? L, I D D e L, title 34. Dick Little Rule 34, please. That's crazy.

[David Sanchez]

Make sure you put gang in there, okay? Thank God. All right.

[Mark Gagnon]

This guy Dick Little, looks like you. Sort of. I mean, if better mustache. But everything else kind of checks out.

[David Sanchez]

Checks out, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

He is on the run from the law and takes refuge in the home of Martha Bolton, Bob Ford's widowed sister. One day at breakfast, Height and Little began to argue while Ford sat watching. The dispute soon accelerated with the feuding pair drawing their guns. The sound of four rapid shots from Hite's gun soon echoed through the room, one of which struck Little in the leg. Falling to the floor, Dick returned the fire, hitting Height in the arm. In the meantime, Bob Ford drew his own gun, being Little's close friend, fired one shot hitting Height in the head, collapsing to the floor. Wood Hite died just moments later. Ford then wrapped the corpse in a blanket carried outside and placed it on a mule, took it into the woods, where he then buried Hite in a shallow, unmarked grave. This killing, coupled with Ford's greed and desire for notoriety, would be a death sentence for Jesse James. When word of the shooting reached authorities, Ford was arrested. But when he informed detectives that he had access to the much wanted Jesse James, he was released. Next, Ford secretly met with Missouri Governor Thomas Crittenden, who told him that if he killed the notorious outlaw, he would receive a full pardon for the Height murder as well as the killing of James, and also receive reward money. Whoa. Ford agreed to perform the deed and next met with the sheriff of Clay county, where the two formulated a plan to get Jesse James. By March 1882, a number of James gang members began to turn themselves in, leaving Jesse with Little left to plan a bank robbery with other than Charlie and Bob Ford. Although he instinctively distrusted the Ford brothers, he followed through. And on the morning of April 3, 1882, he was having breakfast with the brothers in his home. Afterward, the men went to a parlor where Jesse outlined his plans for robbery on this Missouri bank. When James noticed that a framed needlepoint picture done by his mother was hanging crookedly on the wall, he stood up on a chair to adjust the picture. Suddenly he heard the sound of Bob Ford's cocked pistol and turned just slightly. Bob then shot Jesse just below the right ear and Jesse toppled to the floor, dead. Jesse was just 34 years old. Initially, Ford is charged with murdering both Wood Hite and Jesse James. But true to his word, Governor Crittenden pardoned him while he stood trial for murder. As to the money, he received only a fraction of the reward. See, you can't trust these Feds, dude. Returning to their hometown of Richmond, Missouri, Bob and Charles were not greeted kindly as residents found the killing of Jesse James so distasteful that they made life unbearable for the brothers Charles. Ford, when he heard that Frank James was searching for them and planned to kill them in revenge for his brother's death, began to move from town to town. For the next two years he ran, changing his name several times until finally he could take it no more and committed suicide in 1884. Wow. In the meantime, Bob Ford was capitalizing on his betrayal of Jesse James. Taking to the stage, appearing in an act entitled Outlaws of Missouri. Night after night, Ford retold his story carefully omitting that he shot James in the back. But this charade was short lived as he was greeted with cat calls, jeers, hoots and challenges. On June 8, 1892, a man by the name of Edward O' Kelly walked into Bob's saloon with a sawed off shotgun. As Ford's back was to the door, o' Kelly said, hello, Bob. And as Ford turned around to see who addressed him, o' Kelly shot him with both barrels, killing him instantly. Damn, this guy's a rat. I mean, yeah, he's a rat. You're doing crime and you kill a dude and then to get out of killing the dude, you decide to kill a bigger dude. I don't know. I mean, this is just classic like, you know, government fed story.

[David Sanchez]

You know, I like how public opinion was like, you're, you killed the criminal, but you were his criminal.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, and that criminal was our criminal. You can't just go around killing criminals, especially in this time, I imagine.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, that, that like your word meant everything.

[Mark Gagnon]

This is why I love looking into and researching like gang stories, talking with criminals, because there is something that gets distilled to like, the base core of what humanity actually values. And it's like, hey, if you're doing dirt, you stay true. You know what I mean? Everyone wants to be a knight, but no one wants to bleed like one.

[David Sanchez]

Shut up.

[Mark Gagnon]

That is it. That is it.

[David Sanchez]

That's not applicable to this.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's extremely applicable. Everyone wants to be an outlaw. But then the second you got to do outlaw and like, stand on your.

[David Sanchez]

Phone, they stood on business for sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, they did not stand on business. They did crimes.

[David Sanchez]

They did the ultimate crime.

[Mark Gagnon]

They did not stand on business. They were supposed to go take the sentence, go to the gallows. You killed a guy, you killed height. You know what I mean?

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And if you kill a guy, then, yeah, you got to stand on it. And he didn't. He took a deal with the feds and then on top of that, he didn't get the reward money like he was promised.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So everyone's a rat here. But I will say, you know, he turned on one of his homies. That's got to put him at four. Yeah.

[David Sanchez]

The fact that it's his friend and that, like you. Yeah, four.

[Mark Gagnon]

And he idolized him. The reason he got into this type of line of work was because he likes Jesse James. You know what I mean?

[David Sanchez]

I don't know if you read this, but for a period, Robert earned money by posing for for photographs as the man who killed Jesse James in dime museums. He also appeared on stage with his brother Charles reenacting the murder in a touring stage show. That's kind of bit shit.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. He would go around and do these speeches and like, get money off of telling the story about how he killed the most famous outlaw ever. All right, let's move on to another one, shall we? Yep. Vidkund Kisling, 1887-1945. He was the Norwegian Minister of Defense between 1931 and 1933. Any idea what was going on at this point?

[David Sanchez]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

He was a member of the Agrarian party. When the Agrarian Party refused to appoint Kissling as party leader, he left to form his own party. May 1933, he co founded the National Samsling, the national unity political party. Kissling also became the party's forer or the leader. However, the nasling smiling Samling was not successful in elections. 1933, Norwegian parliamentary elections, the party took 2.2% of the vote. And by 1936, the last election held before the outbreak of war, World War II, it took only 1.8%. Neither result was enough for the party to ever Hold a seat in the storting the Norwegian Parliament. While the German offensive got underway in the late 30s, Kissling took to the Norwegian airwaves. In the first ever attempted coup d' etat by radio, he announced to the Norwegian public that they should welcome rather than resist the advancing Germans. He also announced a new government and declared himself as the new head of state. Two hours later, Kissling repeated his radio announcement. This time he issued a warning that any refusal to cooperate with the new government should henceforth involve the most serious consequences for the individuals. Concerning Kisling's coup only lasted six days. On April 15, 1940, Nazi leadership forced him to step down. King Haakon VII refused to accept Kissling's government, meaning Germany had to continue the Norwegian invasion to solidify control. Norway fell to Germany in 1940. The King and Prime Minister Johann Neingardsvold went into exile in London. Hitler met Kisling in December 1939 and was generally impressed. His initial plans for the German occupation had tentatively placed Norway under Kisling's control. However, Nazi leadership realized how little popular support Kisling had. On April 24, 1940. Hitler thus appointed Joseph Terboven to the the district leadership of Essen and as the administrator von Falkenhorst remained military control. In addition, all political parties other than the National Samling were outlawed. As the leader of the National Samling, Kissling was given the position as head of the cabinet under Terboven. In 1942, Terboven appointed him as the prime minister of the national government that was essentially a puppet state under German control. One of Kisling's first acts of this role was to reinstate the joden paragraphen. Do you know what that is?

[David Sanchez]

Nope.

[Mark Gagnon]

That is the Jewish paragraph of the Norwegian constitution. This paragraph, which had been removed in 1851, prevented Jews from immigrating to Norway. Oops. We don't know about that little piece of history, huh? Norway. Oh, we're so free. Everybody's free. We're so. We're not racist. 1851. Oh, the Jewish paragraph. You guys forgot to tell us about that, huh?

[David Sanchez]

How many Jews are in Norway?

[Mark Gagnon]

Not a lot. Want to know why? There was a little paragraph they put in the constitution. From October through November 1942, Kissling signed a series of laws that enabled the arrest of all Norwegian Jewish men and confiscated and confiscation of all Jewish owned properties and assets. The registration of all Norwegian Jews There are approximately 2, 100 Jews in Norway at the time of the German invasion. Among them about 350 German and Austrian refugees who had sought haven from Nazi Germany. A month after the mass arrest of Jewish men, Nazi officials working with the national assembling in Norway began to arrest women and children. Acting on plans that had been previously developed, the Norwegian police arrested Jews throughout Norway and brought them to Oslo for deportation. Whoa. That is crazy. From Oslo, Norwegian Jews were sent by ship to German port of Stetson. They were then transferred by train to Auschwitz. Most were killed on arrival, all because of this one scumbag that took over a puppet government in Norway. When World War II ended in 1945, the Norwegian government in exile returned from London and promptly arrested Kisling. He was charged with high treason, aiding a foreign government, murder, embezzlement, theft, and other crimes. In court, Kisling argued that he acted in Norway's best interest and always with the goal of restoring Norwegian independence. The court was unconvinced, however, and Kisling was convicted. Sentenced to death. He was executed on October 24, 1945 in Oslo. What a scumbag. Right? That's going to put you at the top of my list. Personally.

[David Sanchez]

He's number one.

[Mark Gagnon]

He's. You gotta be right. According to my apac, handlers told me that I had to say that he was number one. That's. That is crazy, though. Like, you're gonna.

[David Sanchez]

I've never heard of this guy in my life. It's insane.

[Mark Gagnon]

What a scumbag. You. So the Nazis are coming in, and instead of being like, we're gonna fight, we're gonna hold down for our country. Is that. It's fine. Just let him in. It's okay. He's got good ideas. Yeah, let's just see. And then you get a bunch of your own citizens killed.

[David Sanchez]

Yep.

[Mark Gagnon]

Not only killed, you get them exported, excavated, excavated. You get them sent away and then killed under the hands of Nazi Germany. This guy's a scumbag. Can we get a picture of this guy kissing? You can't do that. If people are coming to your country, just die like a man. Be like, yo, you know what? I'm gonna stand on it, and we're gonna go out fighting. See, I hate this. I don't even know. Look at this guy. Vidcon Kisling.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, he looks like a scumbag. I don't even know Norway had anything to do with World War II.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, I always thought they just got conquered.

[David Sanchez]

I didn't even know they got conquered.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, yeah, all the. All the Scandinavians. I shouldn't say all. Was Sweden conquered? Can we find that out? That'd be. That'd be interesting. What Happened to Sweden and Finland? I think Finland was. I don't know about Sweden. Was Sweden conquered by Germany? No, Sweden was not taken over by the Germans during World War II. They maintain a policy of non, non belligerence. I mean, that probably added insults, injury for kissling. Yeah, but he was like, no, I was just trying to help.

[David Sanchez]

We're not in this together, guys.

[Mark Gagnon]

And Sweden was like, well, you didn't have to do that. You could have just been non belligerent. Like that was always an option. What about Finland? Was Finland conquered by Germany? This will be. This will be. Finland was not occupied. What is. See, like they didn't have to get occupied. This guy just sold out his own country, struck a deal with old Hitty and then killed a bunch of his own citizens. Piece of shit. I would love to know if there's any Norwegians listening. What do you guys think of kissling? Is this ever talked about in history? It must be, right? I mean, I don't like this guy. Oh, we got another one. Harold Cole.

[David Sanchez]

Wait, where does he rank?

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, this guy's got to be high. You got to put him like two or something. He sold out his entire country to the Nazis. Yeah, you got to put him at like 2. Yeah. I don't know what's going to come after him. That's going to take over, but he's going up there high.

[David Sanchez]

You better hope someone takes over him.

[Mark Gagnon]

Inshallah. Harold Cole. This guy dies in 1946. I wonder what he was involved with. An English jailbird who served during World War II in the British army and the French Resistance. A double crossed and double crossed, both by working for Germans during his extraordinary wartime career. I wouldn't call it extraordinary. He lied and conned his way into France, joined the Nazis and snitched on the Resistance, resulting in the arrest and execution of many. By his teens, Cole was already a burglar, Czech forger and embezzler. And by 1939 he had served multiple stints in prison. When World War II began, he lied about his criminal history to enlist in the British army and was sent to France. Promoted a sergeant, he was arrested for stealing money from the sergeant's mess to spend on hookers and became a prisoner of war in May 1940.

[David Sanchez]

He's coming back.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I mean, getting hookers and drugs is like, all right. When the Germans captured the guardhouse where he was jailed, he escaped and made his way to Lille, where he got in touch with the French Resistance, claimed to claim to be British Intelligence and sent to organize Escape lines to get stranded and escaped British military personnel back home. And for some time, Cole actually did positive work, escorting escaped personnel across Nazi occupied territory into Vichy France when they slipped into Spain and got sent back home. However, he was also embezzling the funds intended to finance those operations to pay for high society lifestyle of nightclubs, restaurants, champagne, fast cars and whores. When his thefts came to light in 1941, the Resistance arrested him and locked him up. But while they deliberated what to do with him, he escaped. I mean, what a fucking insane life. On the run from the Resistance. He turned himself into the germans, gave them 30 pages of resistance members names and addresses, and became an agent of the SS. In the ensuing roundup, over 150 resistance members were arrested, of whom at least 50 were executed. And Cole was present during the interrogation and torture of many of his former colleagues. Damn, this guy's evil. As Allied armies neared Paris in 1944, Cole fled in a Gestapo uniform. In June 1945, he turned up in southern Germany, claiming to be a British undercover agent and offered his services to American occupation. Occupation. For forces triple crossing. He turned against the Nazis, hunting and flushing them out of hiding, murdering at least one.

[David Sanchez]

He was a good guy all along.

[Mark Gagnon]

He's coming back around. The British discovered Cole's whereabouts and arrested him. But he escaped the prison where he was awaiting. How do you escape prison five times in a row? What's going on?

[David Sanchez]

Sleight of hand.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, what is happening? He's just like, oh, look over here. He escaped the prison where he's awaiting court martial and headed to France. There, French police received a tip off, revealing his whereabouts to the central Paris apartment. And on January 8, 1946, they crept up the staircase to seize him. Their heavy tread gave them away. And he met them at the door, a pistol in hand. In the assuming shootout, the fugitive was struck multiple times and died. Whoa. I mean, that's an insane little tale right there. So he's a criminal, just embezzling.

[David Sanchez]

Where's he from again?

[Mark Gagnon]

He's English.

[David Sanchez]

Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Embezzling. Stealing from people. Da da, da, da. Goes and works for the British army.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Steals from them, gets arrested, escapes, Goes to the French, poses as like British intelligence, poses British intelligence. Escapes, goes to the Nazis, sells out his own colleagues, gets them tortured and murdered in front of him. Escapes, goes to the Americans, sells out Nazis, escapes. And then goes to France, where then he's killed. Hey, business owners, we know you know the importance of maximizing every dollar with the delta sky miles reserve business American Express card. You can make your expenses work just as hard as you. From afternoon coffee runs to stocking office supplies and even team dinner, you can earn miles on all your business expenses. Plus you can earn 110,000 bonus miles for a limited time through July 16th. The Delta SkyMiles Reserve business card. If you travel, you know, minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Offer in 716.25. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[David Sanchez]

With the price of just about everything.

[Mark Gagnon]

Going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in.

[David Sanchez]

A reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a.

[Mark Gagnon]

A thing. Mint Mobile Unlimited premium wireless, Everybody.

[David Sanchez]

To get 30, 30.

[Mark Gagnon]

But to get 30, better get 20. 20, 20. But to get 20, 20. But get 15, 15, 15, 15. Just 15 bucks a month. Sold.

[David Sanchez]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Mark Gagnon]

Of 45 for three month plan equivalent to 15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow. After 35 gigabytes of network's busy, taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com.

[David Sanchez]

I think he, he just seems like a grifter.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I mean, he's not really a.

[David Sanchez]

He's like the ultimate backstab.

[Mark Gagnon]

So he's the ultimate backstabber. But also when you backstab everyone, you kind of backstab no one yourself.

[David Sanchez]

I wonder how much of Inglourious Basterds was about this guy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, what an insane thing. Like, I'm like, I'm shocked that there's not a movie about this guy. I mean, I don't know. I'm gonna put him.

[David Sanchez]

So, like, it's all about how you finish. And he finished. And he finished.

[Mark Gagnon]

Great. I think we need to look at the numbers. Like, he killed a Nazi by hand.

[David Sanchez]

That's more than how many Nazi. How many Nazis have you killed?

[Mark Gagnon]

You know, I mean, I've killed zero Nazis. Yeah, but he also did get a lot of people fighting the Nazis killed. 150. I think he did way more harm than good. Even though he did do some good. But because he did do some good, I'm going to put him at like 4.

[David Sanchez]

No, no, he ended with ratting out the Nazis.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Just to save himself. He was never actually interested in getting rid of Nazis. He was just like, what can I.

[David Sanchez]

Do about the intentions if the act is good?

[Mark Gagnon]

See, you are such a utilitarian and it really grosses me out. Yeah, you might as well be Harold Cole. This guy, I don't know.

[David Sanchez]

Let's, let's, let's, let's what spots? What's the highest spot we have open? Gabe?

[Mark Gagnon]

One is still open.

[David Sanchez]

No, no, I meant lowest. Sorry.

[Mark Gagnon]

Thirteen is still open. I know.

[David Sanchez]

Ledge.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, I mean, I think we have a 12. No, dude, you can't sell out the French to Nazis.

[David Sanchez]

You can absolutely sell out the. If you're gonna work with the Nazis, sell out the French.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, I'm. I think. Okay, can we agree this is a comedy? Six. Can we. Around six. Six is good.

[David Sanchez]

I like six.

[Mark Gagnon]

We'll put them at six.

[David Sanchez]

We'll put them at 6.

[Mark Gagnon]

Eddie Chapman. You ever heard of this guy?

[David Sanchez]

British?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[David Sanchez]

Also just assume. I've never heard of them.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, you knew about the freaking.

[David Sanchez]

The Aztec bitch.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. The Cortez lady. He was known as Agent Zigzag. He was a. Why is that funny?

[David Sanchez]

That's a great name.

[Mark Gagnon]

Agent Zigzag. Yeah, yeah, he was English.

[David Sanchez]

He loves getting high.

[Mark Gagnon]

He was a safe breaker, thief, crook and all around career criminal who became the only Englishman ever awarded a German Iron Cross. It was ironic on many levels because he was also one of history's most colorful double crossers. And the false information he fed the Germans derailed the effectiveness of their vengeance weapons and likely save the lives of thousands of Londoners. See this sounds like another. Another herald.

[David Sanchez]

He looks like a crook. Look at that mustache.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Eddie Chapman. I mean, what an insane.

[David Sanchez]

It's like a Lower east side.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I mean, does he have like a dove on his forearm, you think?

[David Sanchez]

Hey, what's wrong with patchwork tattoos?

[Mark Gagnon]

Does he have just a tiny little hand on his bicep? Maybe just some. Something El.

[David Sanchez]

I don't judge.

[Mark Gagnon]

Raised in his functional family, Chapman was a delinquent from early ages. He enlisted age 17, but within a few months grew bored and deserted the army. When the army caught up with him, he was sentenced to a prison stint and dishonorable discharge. After his release, he turned to fraud and crime to support a gambling habit and a taste for fine drinks. In World War II, Chapman was hiding in Jersey in the Channel Islands. From Rest Orange it wasn't, you know, chilling out in Hoboken. A botched burglary earned him a two year sentence in a Jersey prison, where the Germans found him. When they captured the channel islands in 1940, he offered to work for them. So they freed and trained him in explosives, sabotage and other clandestine skills before parachuting him into Britain in 1942, tasked with destroying a bomber factory. He was soon arrested after landing, however, and immediately accepted and offered to become a double agent. An easy choice considering that the other alternative would have been probably to get killed. Given the codename Agent Zigzag, a plan was concocted to fake the bomber factory's destruction, which convinced the Germans and raised Chapman's high on their esteem. From then on, his radio reports, carefully fed him by British intelligence, were treated as gospel by the Germans as he was recalled and given a hero's welcome by the Germans. And soon after D Day, was awarded an Iron Cross and sent back to Britain to report on the effectiveness of German V1 and V2 rocket strikes. In London, he set up shop and under British control, sent the Germans inflated figures about the death from their rockets while deceiving them about their actual impact points, causing the Germans to shift their aim points, with the result that they tended to fall on lower population density parts of London with correspondingly fewer casualties. After the war, Chapman lived a colorful life. Went into smuggling, moved to the colonies, started a farm, and in violation of the Official Secrets act, got his exploits published in the Eddie Chapman Story and had a bunch of other books written about him, which collectively formed the basis of the 1967 movie Triple Cross. I don't know. This guy sounds like a good guy.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, what's our lowest one that we have available?

[David Sanchez]

Also, parachuting out of planes, diffusing bombs.

[Mark Gagnon]

Kind of sick, kind of chill, right? Sure. Did he go over there and brick broker a deal with the Germans? Yes, that's what I'm saying. You got it. How is the water, by the way?

[David Sanchez]

It's frozen. I don't know if you can. What? Camera.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, it's just a brick. Yeah, sorry about that.

[David Sanchez]

It's okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Our coolers or coolers working well? Yeah. I'd put him at 12. Like, he stopped. The Nazis saved people's lives in England. I'm. I'm down with this guy. I got no issue with him. Seems like kind of a good dude.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

All right, we got four more. You ready?

[David Sanchez]

I better start seeing some real hitters.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I'm sitting here in my beautiful tent, as you can see, every week, day in, day out. And people always ask, they say, mark, how do I have a tent like that? I want to sit in a beautiful tent and invite a lover, a friend, you know, someone that I appreciate and adore. I want to give them a good time inside my tent. Well, it's easy, thanks to the good folks [e-mail]. that's right. Bluechew is the original OG brand, offering chewable tablets. And what do these tablets do? Oh, I'm glad you asked. They are gonna give you the just in. A stronger, harder and longer lasting sexual performance. That's right. They're gonna help you pitch a tent, any place, anywhere. And the best part, it's all done online. That means you don't have to go to a doctor's office and, you know, talk to them, be like, oh, you know, I'm feeling some type of way. Look, this is not for people that are, you know, lacking necessarily. This is for people to want to have the best experience of their life. Whether it's Valentine's Day, birthday, a funeral, who knows, whenever you need it. You never know when you could use bluechew. And we have a special deal for the listeners of this program. That's right. Try your first month of bluechew. For free. That's right. Completely free. Mark, is it gonna work for me? Is this, hey, it's free. Why not just try it? Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank BlueChew for sponsoring this podcast. All right, now let's get after it it and let's get back to the show. What's up, people? Quick announcement. If you are a fan of Camp Gagnon or Religion Camp, I have great news because we are dropping History Camp. That's right. This is the channel. We're going to be exploring the most interesting, fascinating, controversial topics from all time throughout all history. Right. You probably know about Benjamin Franklin, I don't know, Thomas Jefferson, Nikola Tesla, interesting figures from history and you probably learned about in school. And they were pretty boring. But not here. No. As you know, I was raised by a conspiracy theorist. So I'm going to be diving deep into all of the interesting, strange, occult and secretive societal relationships that all of these famous, influential men from our shared past have. So if you're interested, please go ahead and subscribe to the YouTube channel. It will be pinned in the description as well as the comments. And if you're on Spotify, this doesn't really apply to you, but these episodes will be dropping as well. Just go ahead and give us a high rating because it really helps the show. Now let's get back to it. Juan Pujol. Juan Pujol Garcia was his full name. An eccentric Spaniard, out of a sheer desire for adventure and excitement, hoaxed the Nazis with fictional spying during World War II. The hoax grew into the greatest double cross operation of the conflict and played a significant role in ensuring Allied victory on D Day and the Subsequent Normandy campaign. Pujol hated fascists, and When World War II began, he decided to help the Allies for the good of humanity. However, when he offered his services to British intelligence, he was rejected. Undeterred, he posed as a Nazi sympathizing Spanish government officer and offered his services to the Germans, who accepted and ordered him to Britain, where he was recruited to a spy network. Instead, he went to Lisbon, and from there made of reports about Britain with content culled from public sources, embellishing and seasoned with his own active imagination, then sent them to his German handlers as if he was writing from Britain. The Germans swallowed it up and begged for more. So Pujol invented fictional sub agents and used them as sources for additional fictional supports. I mean, so far, this guy seems pretty cool.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, he looks. He has a nice smile on him. So he looks like a little cutie.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, you think he was a little sugar in the tank?

[David Sanchez]

He likes to stop his cold.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Intercepting the decoded secret German messages, the British realized that somebody was hoaxing the Germans, and upon discovering that it was Pujol acting on his own, they belatedly accepted his offer of services, giving him the codename Garbo. Garbo? What does that even mean? They whisked him to Britain, where they built upon his imaginary network, transforming it into an elaborate double cross operation that carefully fed the German a massive amount of often true but useless information mixed in with half truths and falsities. The flood of reports for Pujol and a steadily growing network of fictional sub agents transformed him in Germanize into their most successful spy in Britain. The moment for cashing in on that trust came during the buildup of D Day and the subsequent Normandy campaign, as the ultimate aim was to convince the Germans that the Normandy landing were but the first in a series of planned invasions, with an even bigger one against the pas de kallas. To cement Pujol's credibility with the Germans, British intelligence had sent him a message alerting the Germans to the invasion a few hours before its commencement, knowing that by the time it worked its way from German intelligence to commanders in the field, the invasion would have already taken place and the warning would have done the Germans no good and served only to enhance Pujol's reputation. They then went for the kill. Building upon years of trust, Pujol informed the Germans that the Normandy landings were diversions and the real blow would fall upon Paz de Kallas a few weeks later. That, coupled with other measures whereby a fictional first US army group under the command of George Patton was massed across the English Channel opposite the Paz de Kalis, convincing the Germans during crucial weeks in June 1944 to keep powerful formations in the region rather than rush them to Normandy to help destroy the vulnerable Allied beachhead. I mean, this guy's kind of a G, right? Like, he got turned down by the British once.

[David Sanchez]

We're looking at this in the terms of backstabbing, no morals, okay? This guy's a fucking rat.

[Mark Gagnon]

In what way? He's an English guy. Went to go, is he not Spanish or Spanish guy, whatever. Spanish guy tried to work with the English, tried to work with the Spanish, tried to work with the good guys. Hates fascists, doesn't get a deal. Strikes up a deal with the Germans just to bleed them of money. He never actually intended to send them any.

[David Sanchez]

So how's he a backstabber then?

[Mark Gagnon]

Because he got a deal with the Germans and said, yeah, I'll work with you guys.

[David Sanchez]

With like a wink, though.

[Mark Gagnon]

With a wink.

[David Sanchez]

With, like, no intention. Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

You know, so I guess he's a bad backstabber.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

But a good guy.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

As to Pujol, he gained the distinction of earning an Iron Cross from Germany plus a member of the Order of the British Empire from Britain. After the. After the war, fearing reprisal from the Nazis, he faked his death in Angola in 1949, moved to Venezuela, where he ran a gift shop in a bookstore, Led an anonymous life until 1984, which he agreed to be interviewed for a book about Agent Garbo, after which he was received at Buckingham palace, was lionized in Britain, and on the 40th anniversary of D Day, traveled to Normandy to pay his respects to the dead. He died in Caracas four years later. I mean, yeah, put him low. Not really like a great backstabber, but men. But a mench, Like a good guy. I mean, sold out Nazis. If you sell out Nazis, you get a. You get a gold star in my book. Okay, again, I don't like to get political, but you seem like you're on the right side of history. I mean, that is crazy. If the Nazis had won, this guy would be like the greatest backstabber ever. Everyone would hate him.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

This guy, he's so stupid. These dumb, dumb spaniels. I hate the Spanish.

[David Sanchez]

You think Spanish people.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's how the Germans talk.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, yeah, that's.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm saying, if the Germans won, everyone would be speaking.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, everyone's speaking German.

[Mark Gagnon]

Francisco Pizarro. Yeah, whatever the lowest one is. Yeah, yeah, Francisco Pizarro. You ever heard of this Guy. This one you have.

[David Sanchez]

No, I haven't.

[Mark Gagnon]

Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro managed to pull off a double cross against the Incan Emperor Atahupa in 1502. Oh, yeah, I don't know. That was even more dramatic and venial than any pulled off by Hernan Cortez against Montezuma a decade earlier. It also resulted in the destruction of the native empire and its replacement by a vast Spanish domain. In 1525, Atahualpa had inherited the northern half of the Incan empire from his father, while the southern half went to his brother Huascar. Five years later, Atahualpa attacked his brother and by 1532 had defeated Huskar and reunited the empire. Already this guy's cold blooded.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

His reign over the Incan empire would prove brief, however, for Pizarro. Short up showed up shortly thereafter, Pizarro landed in Peru 1532, and after establishing a small colony, set off to conquer with a small force of about 200 men. En route, he was met by an envoy from Atahulpa inviting him to visit him at his camp where he was resting with an army of about 100,000 men. After his recent victory over his brother reunification of the Incan empire, Pizarro set off to meet Atahulpa with 100 infantry, 67 Calvary armed with, you know, steel, a couple cannons, stuff like that. A meeting was arranged in 1532 in a plaza in the town of Cajamarca. And on the night of the 15th, Pizarro outlined to his men an audacious plan to seize Atahualpa in emulation of Cortez's seizure of Montezuma. On the second day, Atahualpa, failing to take precautions for his own security, left his army camped outside Cajamarca and arrived at the town's plaza on a fine litter carried by 80 high ranking courtiers and trailed by about 5,000 nobles and other courtiers richly dressed in ceremonial garments, unarmed except for some ceremonial stone axes. The Spaniards, concealed in buildings, surrounded the plaza with calvary hidden in alleys leading to open square, fell upon Atahupa and his party at a signal from Pizarro. The result was a massacre as the unarmored, unarmored natives proved no match for the Spaniards steel swords and bullets and crossbows, while the Indian ceremonial stone axes were useless against the plate armor. Thousands of natives were killed, with the remainder fleeing in panic attacks. While not a single Spaniard life was lost at capture, Atahupa sought to buy his life by offering to fill a room measured 22 by 17ft, up to 8ft with gold and twice with silver. After the payments were made, Pizarro again double crossed Atahualpa and reneged on the deal. Put him through a staged trial that convicted him of rebellion, idolatry, and murdering his brother Huascar. Sentenced to death by burning, Atahupa was spared that fate by agreeing to get baptized as a Catholic and was executed by strangulation instead. Oh, my God.

[David Sanchez]

Not a great look for the Catholics.

[Mark Gagnon]

Treachery paid off for Pizarro, who amassed considerable wealth and power after his double cross of at the Hulpa until some measure of karmic justice caught up with him in 1541. June 26th of that year, a group of heavily armored supporter of the rivals stormed Pizarro's palace. And in the ensuing struggle, Pizarro was stabbed in the throat. Falling to the ground, he made a cross with his own blood while gurgling cries for help from Jesus to no avail. He bled to death. Damn, that is. Yeah. I mean, he deserved it.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah. I don't like. I don't like when backstabbers go against weaker people.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, this is the thing. I want to know what the nature of, like, their initial, you know, meeting was, right. Like at the hoopa was trying to be diplomatic. He was like, hey, Pizarro, come through. We're not gonna fight you guys just come say what's up. Yeah. And they agreed. They said, yeah, no, we'll just do a meeting. And then instead of a meeting, he just killed all of them.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

On the one hand, it's like, yeah, you're a scumbag. But on the other hand, it's like war. It's not like they're like the countrymen, you know, I mean, one of these guys is a conquistador whose whole job is to go to, you know, South America and ransack the whole continent.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So, yeah, at the hoopa should have been like a little more prepared. On the other hand, this guy is a complete scumbag and yeah. Deserves to have been stabbed later.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Also, like, I guess it's one thing to like, get the guy, kill him, kill all the people, take the money.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's another thing to be like, all right, we'll give you your freedom. Psych. All right, just become Catholic. We'll give you psych. Like, that is the part that I'm like, oh, that's despicable. You can't do that. So I think he's not going to be that high. What's Our, what's our lowest one we have available left? Yeah, I think he's probably seven. I think seven is exactly where seven needs to go.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. All right. Robert Hansen. You've heard of this one? No. Robert Hansen gave the Soviets, and later the Russians, thousands of pages of classified materials that revealed such sensitive national security secrets as the identities of Soviet spying for the United States, specific about America's nuclear operations and the existence of an FBI built tunnel underneath the Soviet embassy in Washington. You've never heard of him? This is like one of the most infamous and like kind of, you know, black eyes on the FBI's entire historical record. This guy, Robert Hanssen, I know about the, the Rosenbergs.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, that's, that's all I know.

[Mark Gagnon]

The Rosenbergs, they were allegedly giving like.

[David Sanchez]

Nuclear secrets to the Soviets. So, like McCarthy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[David Sanchez]

Literally killed them and they had nothing to do with it.

[Mark Gagnon]

I do remember that.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oops. But this guy actually did do it. Look at him. This guy. Oh, yeah, yeah. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Yeah, I remember these guys. Yeah, they got, they got caught up in the crosshairs.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, they didn't do anything. I think.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, we gotta do a deep dive on them. But Robert Hansen, this guy is just a proper. A proper turncoat. I think he's gonna go high, to be honest with you.

[David Sanchez]

It's against America already, so I don't like him.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hansen's double life began in 1979, ended in 2001 when he was arrested after the FBI discovered, thanks to help from an ex KGB officer, that Hansen was a mole. ChurchGoing father of six, Hansen was thought to have been motivated by money rather than ideological beliefs. While covertly working from Moscow on and off for years, he was paid 6,000 in cash and diamonds, with another 800,000 supposedly held for him in a Russian bank. Hansen was only the third agent and FBI history charged with spying. Born in 1944 in Chicago, son of a police officer, graduated from Knox College in 66, then attended dental school at Northwestern before quitting the program to earn an mba. He went to work as an investigator for the Chicago PD, then joined the FBI in 76. He worked for an agency in Indiana and also New York City. Hanssen's deceit began in 79 when he volunteered to spy for the GRU, the Soviet military intelligence agency.

[David Sanchez]

Volunteered.

[Mark Gagnon]

He soon informed the Soviets that one of their generals, Dmitry Polinkov, was in fact a CIA informant who had been spying for America since the 1960s. The Soviets executed Pelikov. Damn. So just off rip this guy just Hands over information unprompted. Yeah, he volunteered and guess this guy murdered. Yeah. So this guy's going to be. Yeah, this guy's definitely going to be up there. 1980. After Hansen's wife reportedly caught him with some suspicious looking papers. He admitted to selling secrets to the Soviets, but claimed the information he had given them was worthless. At his wife's insistence, Hansen promised to sever ties with the Soviets and confessed to a priest who told him to donate the dirty money to charity. However, in 1985, Hansen resumed his espionage activities, this time for the KGB. He gave the KGB the names of three Soviet officers collaborating with the CIA and the FBI. The three spies were arrested and executed. Damn. Like What? Like for $600,000. There's no way back then I. What is that? Two million maybe?

[David Sanchez]

We know how much money you make now. Jesus Christ.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm just saying, to sell your country, risk your whole life. Christ, you're gonna risk your whole life and your. Your professional career. You're the father of six kids.

[David Sanchez]

Free, Luigi. Yes.

[Mark Gagnon]

For 600, 000. It just seems crazy like this is the 1980s. Meanwhile, Hansen continued to rise to the FBI's ranks, eventually working in senior counterintelligence roles. By 1991, with the Soviet Union breaking apart, he stopped spying, possibly due to fears that he'd be found out. But in 1999, while serving as an FBI liaison to the United States State Department, he once again resumed his double agent career, this time for the svr, a post Soviet Russian intelligence service. Hansen's downfall came in 2000, when the FBI, which by then suspected that there was a mole in its ranks, paid 7 million to an ex KGB officer to procure information from SVR headquarters that helped identify Hansen as the turncoat. The FBI put Hansen under surveillance in the late 2000s, and on February 18, 2001, he was arrested at a park in Vienna, Virginia, after making a drop of classified documents in a plastic garbage bag for the Russians. Nearby, FBI agents discovered a bag with 50,000 in cash intended as Hansen's payment. When he was arrested, he reportedly claimed. What took you so long?

[David Sanchez]

Legend.

[Mark Gagnon]

Piece of shit. In order to avoid the death penalty, he struck a deal with the government and agreed to cooperate. In July 2001, he pleaded guilty to 15 counts of espionage. Following May, he was sentenced to 15 consecutive life sentences behind bars with no possibility of parole. And never gets to see his kids again.

[David Sanchez]

Sad.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's crazy. Like, why would you risk all of that? Okay, 2.2 million. Yep.

[David Sanchez]

2.3. Rounding up.

[Mark Gagnon]

You would take that six kids, you have a good, steady career in the FBI, you're making, you know, decent money. And you're going to risk all that for $2.3 million?

[David Sanchez]

Yep. Easy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Some people are so poor, all they have is money. All they have is money. You gotta remember that. You gotta remember that. Dude, you got these beautiful kids. Where is kids now can we search Robert Hansen Children. I gotta know. I mean, this was in 2000. Rule 34. His adult children. Yeah, I wonder if you changed your last name if you got died. Oh, did he? Yeah, in 2020 14. Wow. The Butcher Baker. Oh, wait a second. This episode is brought to you by Pluto tv. Summer of cinema is here, and Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Feel the explosive action all summer long with movies like Gladiator, Beverly Hills Cop, Mission Impossible, Ghost Protocol, Good Burger, Stealth, Four Brothers, and Star Trek Brothers. Bring the action with you and stream for free on all your favorite devices. Pluto tv. Stream now, Pay never. Stream now at Pluto tv. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to.

[David Sanchez]

Earn, save, and spend wisely.

[Mark Gagnon]

And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money.

[David Sanchez]

With guardrails in place, try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail], spotify.

[Mark Gagnon]

Murders and capture. Wait, hang on a second. Hold on a second. This is. This is a different.

[David Sanchez]

Hanson is known to have raped and assaulted over 30 women and have murdered at least 17, ranging in age from 16 to 41. Although based on evidence, law enforcement suspect that Hansen killed at least 21 female victims.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, if your name is Robert Hansen, you got to buy your domain soon because, like, you have so many bad Robert Hansen's out there. They're like, wait, wait, wait. You're dating a serial. A serial. A serial killer. And he's like, no, no, no, no.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, the c. I did espionage.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, no, no. I mean, that's crazy.

[David Sanchez]

You can say I'm a turncoat, but God damn it, don't say I'm a.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, he's in prison being like, you got the wrong guy, I promise you. Who got a longer life sentence, though? That's a good question.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, yeah. What's worse?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, which?

[David Sanchez]

Robert, let's have this ethical question. What's worse? Turning against your country, Selling some secrets.

[Mark Gagnon]

About nuclear codes or 21 women. Let's look at who got the longer sentence in the eyes of the law.

[David Sanchez]

Let's look at the photos of the victims.

[Mark Gagnon]

No. Okay. We're not going to do that. He got 15 life sentences. What did the Butcher Baker. What did. How many life sentences did he get? 461 years.

[David Sanchez]

How many is 15 life sentences? Much more than 461.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, easily more.

[David Sanchez]

23 pubes.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, 15 life sentences. I mean. I mean, what? Like if your life is going to be.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, oh, okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

So. Well, justice system got it right.

[David Sanchez]

Edit that out. I'd rather. Okay, let me ask you this. No, no, because clearly this is worse.

[Mark Gagnon]

The Butcher Baker got more years.

[David Sanchez]

No, he didn't.

[Mark Gagnon]

How long did the Butcher Baker get? 461 more years.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, the got more years. Would you rather turn in your country or 21 women? Because clearly you said.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why do you keep saying.

[David Sanchez]

You said the former was. But worse.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, I did not say the former. Resources.

[David Sanchez]

We roll the tapes.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, the eyes of the law.

[David Sanchez]

Don't say Mark Agnon's a rapist in the chat. No comments. Don't say that.

[Mark Gagnon]

You already said. Let's have this ethical question out. As if something like this is fun.

[David Sanchez]

I mean, you propose.

[Mark Gagnon]

As if something like this is better.

[David Sanchez]

Than or worse than.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're putting. You're putting words in my mouth, which is unconsensually, for the record. So I feel like you fuck Mark in the chat. Don't do that. Don't listen to him, okay? He's not even on camera.

[David Sanchez]

When did you say his alias? Which is funny. Ramon Garcia. I was zoning in and out.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, that's his alias.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah. Hansen using the alias Ramon Garcia.

[Mark Gagnon]

Which is if you're a serial killer.

[David Sanchez]

Why did your dad thinking he's Cuban? He's like, nah, I'm a. I'm a Cuban.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, that's the CIA guy or the spy.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah, the spy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. I mean, this is all Ramon Garcia.

[David Sanchez]

Also, it was 1.4 million in cash, bank funds and diamonds.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whoa. Yeah.

[David Sanchez]

Didn't say the diamond part.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, I did say the diamond part. You said you were zoning in and out.

[David Sanchez]

I was zoning in and out. I'm playing chess. 1300 right now.

[Mark Gagnon]

Let's talk about Aldrich Hazen Ames.

[David Sanchez]

Wait, what's his ranking?

[Mark Gagnon]

He's gonna be high up. How many more do we have? 5. 5.

[David Sanchez]

So we have one left. Also, there's one that I don't know if you're gonna mention, but you should.

[Mark Gagnon]

The Butcher Baker. That guy's gonna go one. He's gotta go one. But he did was foul. I think that's reprehensible what he did.

[David Sanchez]

No.

[Mark Gagnon]

Did you?

[David Sanchez]

You saw God, Not Empire? Not Empire. The summer moon. Flowers of the killer moon.

[Mark Gagnon]

I have not seen it, but I'm familiar with it.

[David Sanchez]

No, you're not. I haven't seen the movie.

[Mark Gagnon]

You haven't even read the movie. I know everything that happens.

[David Sanchez]

What happened happen.

[Mark Gagnon]

We're natives. We got oil. Oh, no. We're gonna give it away.

[David Sanchez]

The natives got so rich they turned Italian. They used the oil to slick back their hair.

[Mark Gagnon]

Exactly. Hey, we got some oil. We got some servants. Oh, no.

[David Sanchez]

The servants are white. They make good food.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Seasoned a little.

[David Sanchez]

Am I eating corn again? Oh, my God. What am I poor?

[Mark Gagnon]

And then the government comes in, takes all the money.

[David Sanchez]

No, it's not true.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're saying that that's not what happened?

[David Sanchez]

No. One of the white guys married the native American for her money and then murdered all of her siblings for the money. Spoiler. The movie came out three years ago.

[Mark Gagnon]

So I'll put him at number one. Then, knowing nothing else other than the.

[David Sanchez]

Two sentence synopsis, you never saw Empire of the Summer?

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm still working on Sopranos.

[David Sanchez]

Are you serious?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[David Sanchez]

What season are you on?

[Mark Gagnon]

Episode one. Season one. You're such a. I just watched the first part where he's playing with the ducks in the pool. So lovable, right? Can you get that bottle out of your mouth?

[David Sanchez]

It's not dethawing.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's like thawing out at a. I mean, it's insane. All right, we got one more and we bet. Can we. Can we wait to place him based off of what? This guy came up with that idea?

[David Sanchez]

Oh, no. No way. You wanted to wait? I'm all about the blind rankings.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, we got one in five and we have two guys left, so that's one left. But what if this guy, Aldrich Hazen Ames is not that bad?

[David Sanchez]

He probably isn't. I haven't seen one that's been bad. We'll the Butcher Baker keep it in.

[Mark Gagnon]

We're not putting that out. Ames was a CIA case officer who spoke Russian and specialized in Russian intelligence, including the KGB, the USSR's foreign intelligence service. His initial overseas assignment, in Ankara, Turkey, where he targeted Russian intelligence officers for recruitment. Later, he worked in New York City and Mexico City. In 1985, while assigned at the CIA Soviet East European Division of the CIA Headquarters in Langley, Virginia, he secretly volunteered to KGB officers at the USSR Embassy, Washington, D.C. shortly thereafter, the KGB paid him $50,000. What year? 1985. It's not that much money.

[David Sanchez]

They're decreasing their money.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, they're like, hey, we can get secrets from this.

[David Sanchez]

Our funds are running low.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, we only give 50,000. Who gave you that offer? It's a race to the bottom.

[David Sanchez]

Interesting mustache choice, I may say. I mean, it looks like a rat.

[Mark Gagnon]

In 1985, he was rocking the Jordan Stash. Respect the.

[David Sanchez]

Wait, what?

[Mark Gagnon]

What?

[David Sanchez]

He's got a Hitler dude.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whoa, dude. Why would you call it that?

[David Sanchez]

Is that gonna demonetize us?

[Mark Gagnon]

I call it the Jordan Stash.

[David Sanchez]

Why Jordan?

[Mark Gagnon]

Look up. Jordan mustache. You've never seen this? How do I know more sports stuff than you? That's crazy.

[David Sanchez]

Look up Jordan mustache. Saddle 34, please.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why do you keep saying title? Title?

[David Sanchez]

What is it?

[Mark Gagnon]

Look at this, bro. You've never seen that.

[David Sanchez]

I'm sure he had a good reason. You know, Stockton said he was better than me, and I found out he was Jewish. I took it personally. I showed up to game six with a Hitler mustache.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. The owner of the Pistons, he's a tribesman. You know, we had to show up and intimidate him. I mean, that's insane that Jordan got the hitty. All right, all right, back to this freak. In Rome, Ames continued his meetings with the kgb, including a Russian diplomat assigned in Rome. In Moscow based KGB officer. At the conclusion of his assignment in Rome, Ames received instructions from KGB regarding clandestine contacts in Washington D.C. where he would be next assigned. In addition, the KGB wrote to Ames that he had been paid 1.8 million by then him. In the four years since he volunteered, 1.8 million is not bad, to be honest with you. I mean, you need to stop. I'll get you water. I'll do whatever you need. This is bothering me so much. The loudest water ever. Upon his return to Washington D.C. in 1989, Ames continued to pass classified documents to the KGB using dead drops or prearranged hiding places where he would leave documents to be picked up later by KGB officers. In return, the KGB left money instructions for Ames, usually in other dead drops. You're familiar with the dead drop, right?

[David Sanchez]

Dead drop.

[Mark Gagnon]

Dead drop is like, you know, I'm a citizen. You're the Russians. I'm working with the Russians. You tell me, hey, go to this tree and leave all the documents in a tree.

[David Sanchez]

Okay?

[Mark Gagnon]

You walk by the tree, leave the documents, and they say, hey, we left you cash. It's in this bathroom stall, underneath the thing. Go into that bathroom stall. You go in there get the cash, get a handy glory.

[David Sanchez]

There's sex with the glory hole.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, you're getting paid a felio. All right. Search brown shirts Rule 34.

[David Sanchez]

Look up Glory hole for me.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, look, can you look up Soviet spy rule 34, please?

[David Sanchez]

Oh, it's rule. I thought it was title, no?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Why? They sound like a. Like a government thing. In the meantime, CIA and FBI learned that Russian officials who had been recruited by them were being arrested and executed. These human sources had provided critical intelligence about the USSR and was used by the US Policymakers to determine the US Next steps. Following analytical review the receipt of information about Ames unexplained wealth, the FBI opened an investigation in 1993. FBI special agents conducted intensive electronic surveillance of ames. During the 10 month investigation, searches of Ames residents revealed documents and other information linking Ames to the Russian Foreign intelligence service. On October 13, the investigation specialist observed a chalk mark Ames made on a mailbox confirmed to the Russians his intention to meet them in bogota, Colombia on November 1st. Wait, what?

[David Sanchez]

How does that signify, like, hey, Mimi. And Medellin.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because that's how they would talk to the Russians. I spoke with Jack Barsy, a former KGB spy, and he said they would talk through chalk on the New York City subway. They would put chalk markings which all indicated different symbols and other KGB spots.

[David Sanchez]

They find a chalk mark on the L train, there's hundreds of them. That seems stupid.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's how the Russians did it. They didn't have any other way.

[David Sanchez]

Also, this is the second person in a row who volunteered to work with the kgb.

[Mark Gagnon]

Maybe we need to up the money for the FBI.

[David Sanchez]

No, I'm not saying we need to up the money for the FBI, but like, where? How are the KGB workers getting in touch with these people?

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't know. There must be a website, like a Facebook. I don't know. I mean, if you have secrets, you probably have contacts.

[David Sanchez]

True.

[Mark Gagnon]

You know what I mean. When Ames planned foreign travel, including a trip to Moscow as part of his official duties, the plan to arrest him was approved. Him and his wife both pled guilty. In 1994, he was sentenced to incarceration for life without possibility of parole. Rosario Ames was sentenced to 63 months in prison. Wow.

[David Sanchez]

Do we know what secrets he was giving away?

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't know exactly. I'm. I'm unsure.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah. Turning against your country's.

[Mark Gagnon]

So I don't know. Him and Robert Hansen kind of did the same thing, but it feels like Robert Hansen's was worse. So I'm putting Robert at number One. How's it worse than this guy?

[David Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, I don't even know what.

[David Sanchez]

This guy was listening for the last.

[Mark Gagnon]

Two people, so there you go. Yeah. Also this guy, I think he only got one life sentence, so.

[David Sanchez]

Oh, so it must have not been bad.

[Mark Gagnon]

It must have not been that bad. That's all I'm saying.

[David Sanchez]

So maybe, you know, turning on your country isn't as bad.

[Mark Gagnon]

All right, we're going to have to blur all of those words out. Oh, so no one's even going to know what you're saying? They might think you're saying a racial slur.

[David Sanchez]

I am.

[Mark Gagnon]

Ladies and gentlemen, these are the worst backstabbers in human history. Some of the worst rats to ever walk this big blue planet. And we ranked them all from 1 to 13th. Yeah. Some honorable mentions. Vidcon Kissling definitely should be number one. I mean, he sold out an entire nation to the Nazis.

[David Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Bad guy.

[David Sanchez]

Bad guy.

[Mark Gagnon]

But Robert Hansen definitely should be up there.

[David Sanchez]

I mean, that guy sucks the guy Empire. The summermen. Killers of the firemen. So sorry.

[Mark Gagnon]

Whatever. Empire of the sun walking on oil. And then the guy at the very bottom or the girl at the very bottom. The. The, you know, daughter of a chief. Yeah, that gets.

[David Sanchez]

Why is she even on this list?

[Mark Gagnon]

Right? It feels like that's. That's not fitting. She got sold out down the river by her own people. Not in a racial way.

[David Sanchez]

It was politics.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's a different time. And yeah, I guess there you have it, folks. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to another episode of Camp. I appreciate it immensely. You can catch me on the road. I'm doing one singular hour of stand up comedy. It has been hailed as some of the comedy ever to be done. I also have merch on my website. That's an honest.

[David Sanchez]

That's honest comedy to have ever been done.

[Mark Gagnon]

It is. It's true. A lot of people have said that. And there's also merch on the website. Campgoods Co hoodies are being restocked as we speak. They're being made at a be an American facility. Everything's made in America.

[David Sanchez]

It's in the sweatiest shop in Beijing.

[Mark Gagnon]

If you say it's made in America, does it have to be made in America?

[David Sanchez]

It can be assembled in America and then like every Zen factory is like, I'm not going to say bad about a sponsor, about flagrant, but Zins are made in Sweden and then, you know, packaged in America. So they're like, oh, we're made in America.

[Mark Gagnon]

All My stuff's made in America. So if you're interested in supporting an American entrepreneur and business person, you can go to campgoods Co. Thank you guys so much. Appreciate it. Gabe, anything you'd like to contribute?

[David Sanchez]

David I have no lords left, ladies and gentlemen.

[Mark Gagnon]

See you next week. Goodbye. If you've made it to the end of this episode, that's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you. You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest, true communication. A highbrowed type of person that understands this History is not just dates and names. It is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy. From the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revered took his midnight ride from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for Today in History. Our free newsletter. Today in History brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything, and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History because history's stories shape tomorrow's world. Thank you for watching the episode. We'll see you next time.