B (4:52)
Yeah. Truly. I love the mission. I kind of like how it's organized around family. Now, there are, let me just be clear, some theological discrepancies as myself, as a Catholic, do not ascribe to. This is the reason why I'm not lds. But again, I think you can appreciate people without having to subscribe to every single one of their beliefs. With that said, a lot of people know, like, we're getting a bunch of little ding dongs over there. Christos. Is that okay? Yeah, I kind of caught it, but that's fine. Whatever. No, some old Christos and his technology machine over there. But again, people I think have misconceptions about, about lds. They're like, no coffee, no alcohol, extremely modest. There's underwear. You get a planet. I don't know if people fully understand everything. And so as a result, they look at it from the outside and they're like, oh, this makes no sense. But there is a consistent sort of logical thread that exists internally. But today, in the act of, you know, trying to understand what everyone believes, I'm going to try to break it down the best that I can. So right off the bat, we did another episode on Religion Camp about Joseph Smith and kind of like the history of the founding of the church. Also, shout out to Keystone. He's a. An LDS YouTuber that did a response to that video where he outlined the things that we got right and then the things that he disagreed that we. That we got wrong. If you are interested in learning more specifically about, you know, LDS beliefs and practices and kind of like how LDS people interpret, you know, the world and stuff, his channel is great. You should go check him out. And, you know, if you specifically want LDS content, he's your guy. So where do we go from here? Okay, well, perhaps a good starting off point would be to acknowledge the, you know, closeness that LDS has with Christianity. So the founder, Joseph Smith came from a mixed Presbyterian and Methodist background and was also, you know, influenced by many other things going on in America at the time. But with that said, Mormons don't reject the, you know, Christian Bible at all. They read it, they quote it, they believe that it is God's word. But this is where things get interesting. They don't think the Bible is as infallible as many Christians might say. So obviously within Protestant or Presbyterian, you know, sort of American Christianity, there's this idea that, you know, sola scriptura, that the Scripture is infallible, it is divinely inspired by God, and Therefore it is 100% totally the truth. Okay? And for many, you know, Protestants, it is the totality of God's truth put into one book. But think about it this way. The Bible has been translated from, you know, Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English, copied by hand for centuries, passed down through different cultures and languages. And a lot of Mormons will look at this and say, like, yeah, we trust it, but some stuff probably got, you know, lost or maybe mistranslated along the way. And this is where the Book of Mormon comes in. They don't see it as the Bible 2.0 or like a replacement for the Bible. They see it as a second witness. Like if you're trying to figure out what really happened at an event, you're going to get two different people's accounts instead of just one. And according to the lds, both are telling the truth, but together they might give you a more full picture. And the story behind it is pretty wild. According to Mormon belief, there were ancient prophets living in the Americas between 600 BC and 400 AD. Alright? These people, descendants of a Jewish family that left Jerusalem before it was destroyed, kept detailed records of their civilizations, their wars, their prophets, and most importantly, a visit from Jesus Christ after his resurrection. Yes, they believe that Jesus showed up in the Americas after Easter and taught the people there and established his church. And that is the centerpiece of the entirety of the Book of Mormon. These records were supposedly engraved on sheets of gold and buried in a hill in upstate New York where they sat for over a thousand years until Joseph Smith was led to them in the 1820s. Smith said an angel named Moroni showed him where they were hidden and then he spent a few years translating them. The translation process itself is, you know, perhaps unique. From the outside, Smith used what he called seer stones, basically stones that would show him the English words. When he looked at them, he put his face basically inside a hat with the stone inside to dictate what he saw so that he could write it down. And it sounds strange, but that is the account and it is documented by multiple witnesses. Now, the Book of Mormon tells a story about prophets, families, wars, faith, apostasy and, and redemption. Talks a lot about Jesus Christ. In fact, some estimate that there's over 3,000 references to him in the book. So for members of the church, reading it feels like getting additional testimony that Jesus is real, that he loves humanity, and that God's plan has always been bigger than just, you know, one part of the world. And here's another thing that makes LDS unique from other Christian schools of thought, and that is that many Mormons believe revelation didn't stop when the Book of Mormon was published in 1830. They believe God still speaks through living prophets today, like the current president of the church. They see him as a prophet the same way that ancient Israel had Moses or Isaiah. And that means that their faith isn't frozen in time. It's dynamic. And that means new guidance, new clarifications, and new applications for modern problems. So when you ask a member of the LDS Church why they need both books, they'd probably say something like, well, you know, why would you just want one witness when you could talk to two people, right? So in Mormonism, the Bible and the Book of Mormon, they're not competing. They are companions. They both point to Jesus, they both teach the gospel, and together they make the case that God has always been reaching out to his children, no matter where they live. And honestly, that's the foundational teaching that almost everything else is built on. Because if you believe that God speaks through modern prophets and additional scripture, then all the other unique Mormon beliefs that can't be found in the Bible, like the ones that we're going to talk about, the. They start to make a lot more sense. Okay? So at this point, you understand where, you know, the colloquial name Mormons comes from. You understand what the Book of Mormon generally is and that it is an additional scripture. And, you know, the modern prophets and all the stuff that builds on a lot of, you know, kind of the Christian foundation. But then the question is, do they classify as Christians or not? And to be honest, it's debated. I mean, they believe in Jesus, they follow his teachings, they even pray in his name. But there are a few core beliefs in Mormonism that might stray from mainstream Christianity. And this honestly prevents many Christians from considering LDS as a part of the greater orthodox Christian family. The biggest one is that they have a different belief about the Godhead. So Christians, broadly speaking, Catholics and Protestants, believe in the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, AKA Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit, are three persons, but one God, one divine substance or essence, a, you know, mysteriously unified triune being. But it is ultimately monotheistic. It is one God with, you know, three forms, so to speak. And it's one of those concepts that theologians have spent centuries explaining and explaining again. And even then, most people just kind of nod along and don't even really understand and just accept it, like divine mystery, like myself included. But Mormons generally don't buy that. So for them, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings, not one God and three persons, but distinct individuals united in purpose, but not in body or being. So God the Father has a physical body of flesh and bone, and so does Jesus Christ, and he got this during his mortal life, and he kept it after the resurrection. The Holy Ghost, on the other hand, is a spirit without a physical body, which is actually why many LDs believe that he can dwell within people and be everywhere all at once. Now, if you're thinking, wait, God the Father has a body like a physical. Yes, that's exactly what they believe. And it gets more interesting. Mormons teach that God the Father wasn't always God. He was once a mortal man, just like us, living in another world. Through faithfulness and obedience to the gospel, he progressed until he became an exalted being, a God. There's this famous couplet from an early Mormon leader named Lorenzo Snow that kind of sums it up. As man now is God once was. As God now is, man may become. So let that sink in for a little. They're saying that at least, you know, Lorenzo is saying that there is a potential to become like God. Not that we'll replace him or overthrow him or anything like that, but that through faithfulness and obedience and temple covenants and, you know, progression, that we can inherit all that God has and become divine and ourselves. For most people hearing this for the first time, it sounds maybe inspiring or just completely heretical, depending on what kind of faith background you have. But for lds, you know, members, it's kind of the point. Earth isn't just a test to see that if you're good enough to go to heaven and, you know, play a harp or something, right? It's school. It's a preparation. It's where you develop Godlike attributes, you know, like love and patience and creation and family, so that you become more like God in a way, and one day you can do perhaps what God does. And that brings us to another unique belief. If God the Father was once mortal and became exalted, then logically, at least in Mormon theology, he has an eternal companion. So many LDs believe in a heavenly mother, a divine female counterpart to the heavenly Father. And I just want to mention that she's rarely talked about in official church settings, mostly out of reverence. And there's not a ton of, like, detailed doctrine about this, you know, female entity. But the belief is there. And it's significant because it reinforces the idea that the family unit, husband and wife together, is the model for Godhood. Which means Jesus isn't just the Son of God in a metaphorical sense. He's literally the firstborn spirit child of the Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Mother. And you, according to lds, you're his spirit sibling. So is everyone else who's ever lived. And that's why LDS members sometimes refer to Jesus as their elder brother. Yes, he's the Savior, of course, and the one who atoned for all of humanity's sins and the one who resurrected and makes eternal life possible. But he's also family. And this is where LDS cosmology starts to feel less like traditional Christianity, more like something completely and, you know, unique on its own. It's not that they don't revere Jesus. They absolutely do. He's central to everything within the LDS Church. I mean, it's literally in the name the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But the framework around him is very different from mainstream Christianity. He's not God the Father in another person. He's the Son doing the Father's will, showing us the path that we are supposed to follow. Does that make sense? So when you hear people ask, are Mormons Christians? This is why it's complicated for many Christians to explain. They believe in Jesus. Yes. They believe in atonement and resurrection. Great. They believe he's the Savior. But their understanding of who Jesus is and who God the Father is is pretty different from, you know, the Nicene Creed and, you know, a few thousand years of, like, traditional Christian theology. And honestly, Mormons aren't trying to be Catholics. Right. They're trying to be what they believe is the restored Church, the original Christianity as Jesus Christ himself established it with all the pieces that got lost or changed over the centuries. So whether you think they got it right or not is up to you. But now at least you know what they believe and why it matters. Because if you accept this framework that, you know, God was once mortal, that we are his literal children, that Jesus is our brother, that we have divine potential, then many of their other beliefs and a lot of the other cultural lifestyle components start to make a lot of sense, right? The missions, the temples, the eternal families. It's all about progression and becoming our fullest Potential, which is divine beings. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you something. The holidays wrecked me. Yeah. Travel. I mean, it was eating whatever I wanted. I wasn't working out. And I just hit January and I felt like I was 100 years old. What I didn't realize that I now know is that your body. My body starts losing collagen way earlier than you think. Like mid-20s. And that's why recovery sucks. I mean, your joints will feel stiff and your hair will get thin and your skin will look tired. All that. And that's why I started taking Bubs. Natural Collagen Peptides. Yes. Everyone's tossing around that P word, and I'm telling you, Bubs is the best one. I toss it in my coffee in the morning and you don't even taste it. It dissolves instantly. It doesn't like clump up or anything like that. And honestly, I feel better. I recover faster, my joints feel better, and I just feel less like I got hit by a car. It's like the first New Year's resolution that I actually kept up with. And what I also like is that Bubs is a legit brand. There's no sugar, there's no fillers. It's third party tested. It is Whole 30 approved. It's NSF certified for SP, all the good stuff. And on top of that, they donate 10% of the profits to charity honoring Glenn Bub Doherty, who is a Navy SEAL who was killed in Benghazi. So it's not just wellness and gonna make you feel better. It's also built on something real that'll make the world better. They also do electrolytes, mct, oil creamer, all the clean stuff. So great news for you is that right now you're gonna get 20% off your entire order. Yes. That's what you get for being a camp listener. 20% off the entire order when you go to Bubs. Naturals, that's B U B S Naturals. N A T U r a l s.com and use the code camp at checkout. And after you buy, they're going to ask you how you heard about them. Tell them that Camp Gagnon sent you. Yeah, the diesel. Peptide it up, bro. Over at Camp Gagnon. All right, let them know. And it actually helps the show grow and it helps keep the fire burning here at the campsite. All right, now let's get back to it. So the whole point of life is to work on becoming like God and God exists in a family unit with an eternal companion, then obviously family is going to be a pretty big deal, like arguably the center of your entire life. And you know how most wedding vows are like till death do us part. Mormons actually see that as kind of tragic. They don't want their marriages to end just because someone passed away. They want their families to continue forever. Parents with children, husbands with wives, all of it intact in the afterlife. And they don't just hope for it or pray for it. They believe that there's an actual way for it to happen. And it's called being sealed. Now, sealing happens in a temple, and it's basically a marriage ceremony that binds a couple not just for life, but for all eternity. And the vows are different, the promises are different, and the entire theology behind it is different. When you get sealed, you're not just saying, I love you, I'll be faithful, and, you know, sickness and health. You're entering into a covenant with God that this relationship will continue beyond death, through resurrection and into eternity. But here's an important detail. Temples are not the same thing as regular Mormon churches. If you've ever driven past a Mormon meeting house, those are the chapels where they hold Sunday services. Anyone can kind of walk in. No membership is required. You know, you can have shorts and flip flops. But temples are extremely different. Temples are sacred spaces, and they're very restricted. You can't just wander in to, like, check it out. Only faithful members of the church who have a temple recommend can actually enter. And getting one isn't automatic. You have to meet with your local bishop and a member of the Stake Presidency. Think of it like the regional leader of the church. And you go through a series of interviews. They'll ask you if you have a testimony of God and Jesus Christ, if you're keeping the commandments, if you're paying a full tithe, if you're living the word of wisdom, that's basically a spiritual check in to make sure that you're living up to the standards required to participate in the actual temple ordinances. Now, once you're inside, the ceremonies are considered sacred. They're not entirely secret, but they're very sacred. Members of the LDS Church don't generally talk about specifics publicly because they view it the same way that you wouldn't casually describe your most intimate spiritual experience to strangers. Right. It's extremely personal and it's extremely holy. But here are a few things that, you know, I was able to find about what happens inside. They occasionally will have baptisms for the Dead, where living members can get baptized on behalf of deceased ancestors who never had the chance to hear the gospel. And the idea behind this is that people in the spirit world can choose to accept or reject the ordinance. It's not forced on anyone. It's just making the opportunity available if they wish. Mormons are really big on genealogy. Because of this, they want to identify their ancestors so that they can perform their these saving ordinances for them and ultimately offer them salvation. There's also something called the endowment ceremony, which is a ritual where members make covenants with God, promises about how they'll live, how they're going to serve, how they will dedicate themselves to building God's kingdom on earth. And in return, they receive specific blessings and knowledge that LDS members believe will help them navigate mortality and ultimately prepare for exaltation. During the endowment, members also receive their temple garments for the first time. And we'll get to that in a second. Now, of course, there are sealing ceremonies, eternal marriages, but also sealings of, you know, children to parents. So if a couple gets married outside the temple and then later converts, they can be sealed together along with their kids, again binding the entire family for eternity. And all this ties back to what we talked about earlier, working to become like God. You see, LDS members believe that heaven isn't just one place. It's divided into three kingdoms of glory. The celestial, the terrestrial, and then the telestial kingdom. Now, the celestial kingdom is the highest, and within it there are 3 degrees. The top degree is exaltation. This is where you become like God, where you live in his presence, where your family relationships continue. And if you're faithful, you eventually gain the ability to create and organize worlds just as God did. But here's the catch. You can't reach exaltation without being sealed to a spouse in the temple. That is a requirement. A single person can make it to the celestial kingdom, sure, but they can't reach the highest degree without an eternal marriage. So you can see, family isn't just important to Mormon theology. It is essential to reach the highest forms of godliness. Again, it is the structure of the Godhead itself, the Divine Mother and the Divine Father. And that's why, you'll notice Mormon culture is so family focused. And that's why they have so many kids, right? It's why family night on Mondays is a church wide thing. And why their church leaders constantly talk about strengthening marriages and raising righteous children. Because in their worldview, your family isn't just something you have during, you know, your lifetime on earth. It is the eternal unit that you were going to be a part of forever, for all eternity. That's high pressure. And even more than that, you kind of need them to actually reach your highest potential in heaven. So when you understand that, a lot of other things about the lifestyle start to make sense, like the strict dating standards. Well, they're preparing young people for this sealing ceremony, the missions. It's partly about sharing the gospel, but also about gaining maturity to be more like God. The emphasis on morality, on worthiness, on keeping covenants, it's all so members can qualify for temple blessings and ultimately exaltation with their families in the great beyond. So, yeah, Mormons are pretty serious about family, but it's not just sentimental and, you know, the lovey good feelings that people feel, you know, it's doctrinal and spiritual and it really affects how you spend your eternal life. All right, so up until this point, I know it's a lot if you didn't grow up lds. And we've covered a lot of the big theological stuff, right? The Book of Mormon, the nature of the Godhead, eternal families. But now let's get into the day to day quirks that people often notice about members of the LDS Church. Like maybe you had a LDS friend, you might have called him a Mormon probably. And you were like, hey, you want to get a beer or a coffee? And they said no. You'd be like, well, what is it the alcohol thing? Is it like haram? Or the caffeine thing? Like, why, why can't you do that? Well, back in 1833, Joseph Smith received a revelation called the Word of Wisdom. It's recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 89. And it's basically like a health code. But unlike modern diet advice or FDA guidelines, it wasn't framed as like, here's what science says is good for you. It's presented as God giving specific instructions on how to treat your body. The revelation says to avoid strong drinks, typically interpreted to mean alcohol. It says tobacco is not for the body. And then it says to avoid hot drinks, which is kind of a confusing thing that people will go back and forth on because Joseph Smith didn't spell out exactly what that means. But early church leaders, including Smith's brother Hyrum, clarified pretty quickly that hot drinks means coffee and tea, specifically coffee and tea made from the tea plant. So black tea, green tea, oolong, all that is off limits. But herbal teas are totally fine. So like chamomile, peppermint, whatever, those don't count. So here's where people get tripped up. It's not about temperature, okay? Like, I'm sure you're like, oh, well, can I have an iced coffee? Can I get an iced latte? Nah. Cold brew. Banned. Iced latte, Banned. It's the coffee itself, not whether or not it's hot. The same with tea. It's the actual substance that's prohibited, not just how you serve it. So naturally, everyone is like, oh, you can't have tea, you can't have coffee, but you can have herbal teas. It must be the caffeine, right? That would make sense. Caffeine's a stimulant. It's addictive. Maybe God doesn't want people dependent on these addictive chemicals. Except it's not that either. You see, I was just in Salt Lake City and there's a place called Swigs and it's like a big, like, you know, like soda shop. And like people go there and just like crush like 40 ounce sodas. They love them. Now a lot of LDS can drink soda and, you know, they drink a lot of soda. Matter of fact, the state of Utah has some of the highest per capita consumption of Diet Coke and Mountain Dew in the country. Energy drinks, not banned. Caffeinated chocolate, also fine. In 2012, the church put out an official statement clarifying that caffeinated beverages aren't against the word of wisdom, just coffee and tea. Which leads to the obvious question, if it's not about caffeine and it's not about temperature, then what is the actual reason behind this hot drink thing? And the honest answer is, I don't know. Like, the revelation doesn't explain why coffee and tea are prohibited. It just says don't consume them. And so for lds, that's enough, right? It's a commandment from God, and ultimately it's the obedience that matters. It's not about, you know, dissecting the science or finding loopholes. Is about showing commitment to the covenant that they made. Like, imagine you, you know, you're Jewish and you keep kosher, you don't eat pork. And you're not doing it because like the modern nutritional science says that pork is bad. Or back in the day pork was bad, but now it's fine, but you still can't do it. You're just doing it because God commanded it in the Torah. Again, it's about obedience and identity and discipline. And it's kind of the same concept here. Now I'm curious if there's LDs out there listening, because I was asking people in Salt Lake. And they were like, yeah, no, we drink caffeine. And I was like, but coffee? And they're like, nah, I'm not coffee. So I'm curious if I'm missing something. If there's a better answer, I would love to know. Or if it's purely just, you know, obedience to the covenant. Now, this covenant, this word of wisdom I was talking about, it's not just a list of don'ts. It also gives advice on what Mormons should eat. And it encourages grains, specifically wheat. It says that fruit and vegetables are good and should be eaten with prudence and thanksgiving. It even says that meat should be used sparingly because, you know, basically reserved for times of, you know, cold winter or famine. Now, generally, LDs don't, you know, follow that part nearly as, as strictly. It seems like you're, you know, if you went to, like, a church or a temple or something, enforcing vegetarianism or, you know, you're not going to see them, like, limiting state consumption. And these prohibitions on coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco are really the hard line. It seems like as far as diet goes, just talking to my LDS friends, like, you can't get a temple recommend, right, to enter that most holy place if you're drinking wine on the weekends. But if you eat like a burger four times a week, like, they might not check on that. So it just becomes a cultural marker more than anything. If you're at a church event, you'll see, you know, dessert tables with cookies and brownies and sugary stuff. Definitely not low carb, health, focused, spread. But, you know, some people even joke that, you know, LDS gave up coffee and just replaced it with sugar. That's kind of like the stereotype. But again, the word of wisdom isn't really about being the healthiest people on the planet. It's more, it seems like, about obedience to God's word. It's about showing that you are willing to set yourself apart, to live differently, to follow what you believe God has asked of you, even when it doesn't always make the most perfect logical sense. And for members, there's a promise attached. The revelation says that those who keep the word of wisdom will receive health in their navel and marrow in their bones. It's a pretty good trade, right? They will run and not be weary, and they'll find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge. Now, a lot of LDs will take that literally. They point at studies showing, like, lower cancer rates in Utah because of the low tobacco and alcohol use. Others see it more spiritually as, like, a promise of like strength in life. Either way, it's a daily visible practice. And when your LDS co worker turns down a beer or, you know, declines like the, you know, coffee run, they're not trying to be difficult or judgmental. They're just living out a commandment that they believe came from God. And in their mind it's a small sacrifice, especially compared to the eternal promises and the goal that they're working towards. All right, we've covered a lot of ground, all right, and we've talked about some of the more visible practices. But what does being, you know, a member of the LDS Church actually look like on a day to day basis? Well, let's talk about some of the key customs and the rhythms that will shape a, you know, an LDS member's life. First up, church attendance. So members of the church will take their Sabbath very seriously. Every Sunday, faithful members attend a three hour block of meetings at their local meeting house. Well, it used to be three hours in 2019 and then the church condensed it to two hours after that. Now the main meeting is called sacrament meeting where the whole congregation gathers together to take the sacrament, which is their version of communion. They hear talks from other members and sing hymns. And after that, the adults will split off into classes. Men go to priesthood meetings, women go to Relief Society, and kids and teens have their own, you know, age specific Sunday school classes. But it doesn't stop with Sundays. LDS members are heavily involved with their local congregations called wards or branches throughout the entire week. There's Family Home evening every Monday where families are encouraged to stay home together and teach gospel lessons and play games. Then there are youth activities on Wednesdays. And besides that, there are service projects and temple trips and leadership meetings. And if you're an active member, I mean, the church is woven into your entire week Now, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that LDS members go to church a lot. But do they have special prayers like the Lord's Prayer, you know, the Our Father or the Hail Mary? And the answer is not really. There's no set liturgy, no memorized prayers that they recite five times a day. Like, you know, Muslims will have Salah. Mormon prayer is actually really personal and conversational rather than communal. They're taught to pray in their own words, addressing the Heavenly Father, expressing gratitude, asking for help, and closing in the name of Jesus Christ. That said, there are definitely a few standard rituals around prayer. Like LDS members pray before meals, every meal, if they're being diligent. They pray as families, usually morning and night. They're Encouraged to pray individually multiple times a day. And they're actually really big on kneeling when they pray, especially for personal or family prayers. It's just a physical act of humility or reverence before God. There's also something called the sacrament prayer, which is read aloud every Sunday during the sacrament meeting. It's a fixed prayer, word for word, the same way every time, blessing the bread and the water. But that's really the only scripted prayer. It seems like in regular LDS worship, everything else just kind of comes from the heart. Now let's talk about one of the most visible things that Mormons do that sets them apart. And maybe my favorite feature of LDS belief. That's the mission. Now, missions are a big deal and you know, it's massive for not only, you know, the doctrine, but also the culture. So at the age of 18 for young men, and previously it was 19 for women, I think they actually lowered it recently to 18 from talking to some friends recently. And LDS members can choose to basically serve a full time mission for the church. So for men it's two years. For women it's, you know, 18 months. And you submit an application to the church, you get assigned to a location anywhere in the world and you go. You don't get to pick where you might end up in Japan or Brazil. I met a guy this weekend that was in Iowa, or maybe you might just be, you know, in Salt Lake City. Wherever you're sent, that is where you serve. And it's fascinating. I actually heard an interesting thing that LDS members that have many times it seems like LDS members that have like mental, like disabilities will typically be sent in Salt Lake, like near their families. So they send them on a mission, but like, they'll keep them close to home, which is kind of sweet.
