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- [00:00]
Mark Gagnon
In December of 1937, Nanjing was a city waiting for something it couldn't yet name. Shops were closing, refugees were flooding in, and everyone could feel that whatever was coming wasn't survival. And today, we'll be telling the entire story of what happened when the Japanese army entered China's capital and discipline, restraint, and humanity collapsed all at once. We'll walk through the road to Nanjing, the chaos of the city's fall and the six weeks of mass killings and terror that followed. We'll talk about the civilians who were trapped, the women who were targeted, and the small group of foreigners who stayed behind and tried, often unsuccessfully, to stop the violence. This isn't just a story about war. It's about what happens when fear becomes policy, when cruelty is tolerated, and when ordinary people are forced to survive the unthinkable. This is the Nanjing Massacre, and why remembering it still matters. History and war are often brutal, and this story is no exception. So sit back, relax if you can, and welcome to camp. What's up, people? And welcome back to camp. My name is Mark Gagnon, and thank you for joining me in my tent, where every single week, we explore the most interesting, fascinating, controversial stories from all over the world, from all time, forever. Yes, this is the show where I deep dive on a random piece of history or information that I'm fascinated by and I try to understand. Now, this show is not possible without you tuning in. I want to say thank you so much for every single person that leaves a comment that clicks on this video that supports us and keeps the fire burning. Furthermore, I need to give a big shout out and a thank you to a dear friend, just a really sweet guy and just one of the greatest men I've ever met, my good pal, Christos Papadopoulos. How are you?
- [01:50]
David Sanchez
That's so sweet.
- [01:51]
Mark Gagnon
All right, Christos, look, I gave you a chance. I don't need you going on and on, all right? Especially on a day like today when we're talking about something so brutal and so horrific. Now, let me just say up top, this is not going to be our typical chipper program, all right? Oftentimes I come into this tent, I just goof around with my buddies, okay? And we just go through history and different crazy wormholes and, you know, explore different information I find on the Internet. And today's topic is a little bit more morbid than that. So in the entrance of. In the interest of reverence and just trying to be a good human being, I'm going to keep the jokes as limited as possible. And I promise I'm not going to laugh, not even once. Right, David? Exactly, exactly. Thank you very much. We're all on board. No laughing at all. I mean, unless something funny happens, in which case we will laugh a little bit. But I'm going to try to keep it reverent and I'm going to try to be a good guy. All right? Now let me just say up top, I'm not a historian, okay? I'm not, I'm not a scholar of World War II history. I'm just an aficionado that really loves to learn about specifically World War II history, but really all history, okay? So I'm going to do my best. I just want to throw that out there. If there's anything I missed, please don't hesitate to drop a comment. Correct me. I'm not immune to, to being corrected. I'd love to know the truth and the actual information. Furthermore, I also don't speak Mandarin. So if there's any words that I happen to mispronounce, I apologize. We'll start off first with the city of Nanjing. Many people call it Nan King. That's the pronunciation that Americans in like the English language speaking world used around 1937, 38, when this atrocity happened, and this was before they had like a full transliteration of Mandarin into the English language. So they called it Nanking. And that's kind of how it was cemented in history. We know it now by the, you know, the correct Mandarin name of Nanjing. So that's the one that I will use. So where does it all begin? There's going to be a lot of context here, but we'll start in 1937.
- [03:44]
David Sanchez
All right?
- [03:44]
Mark Gagnon
There is a war between China and Japan that had already torn through huge parts of the country. And Nanjing, then the capital, was just next in the war path. And for people living there, it didn't feel like the start of a historic atrocity. It felt like just daily life slowly becoming unfamiliar. So by the winter of that year, everything was worse. Shops were closing early. Parents were keeping their kids inside at the sound of distant explosions in nearby villages. And refugees came from all over the city. Into the this city of Nanjing was stories that made people very uncomfortable, even if they tried not to talk about it. The streets were emptying a little bit more and more every single day. And some families tried to leave with whatever they could carry, just preparing for this imminent threat that they couldn't exactly put their finger on how it would look. Others just stayed because they had nowhere else to go. Even longtime residents, people who lived through the hard years of different wars and different conflicts that had happened in the region, started to sense that something far worse was on its way. Nanjing, the capital at the time known as the southern capital, you can imagine Beijing, that same suffix, you know, jing being, you know, the city, the capital. This was a peaceful place full of schools and markets and regular people living regular lives by the mid 20th century. But as December moved on, the city was just on pause and everyone was just waiting for this imminent threat. No one in the city could see the full shape of what was coming, but the signs were there. So Japan's invasion of China kicked off by July 1937. And it was fast and it was ruthless. The Japanese army believed that they could take over China before the rest of the world even had time to respond. The Japanese command followed a simple but brutal idea. Hit hard, break any resistance and push China towards surrender through fear. Terror itself was one of their main weapons. Meanwhile, China was fighting from the edge of collapse. Basically, the country was split between the Nationalists, known as the kmt, the Kuomintang, China's ruling government, and the Communists, their longtime rivals. And its armies were under trained and really just outmatched by Japan's modern war machine. Chiang Kai Shek, the leader of the Chinese Nationalist forces, knew that he couldn't win head on. So he chose to trade land for time basically and just pull back inland and try to stretch Japan as thin as possible and just drag the war on as long as he could, basically grinding to, you know, just a halt that Japan couldn't sustain. But that choice came with a brutal cost. Entire cities and millions of civilians were just left behind. So Shanghai fell in November after three brutal months of fighting. And the battle had turned the city into a graveyard. I mean, Chinese troops held out for a lot longer than anyone expected. But this courage and this bravery wasn't enough to stand up to Japan's artillery and specifically their air power. When the lines finally collapsed and survivors went west towards Nanjing, just exhausted and carrying nothing but their weapons and basically just the memories of what they had been through. Refugees followed behind them in waves. Some walked, others would try to get onto trains. Others clung to trucks and families were completely split apart, holding whatever they could manage to grab before fleeing. They brought stories of these burning cities and just bodies in the streets and places just completely wiped off the map. And some made it to Nanjing, but most never even got that far. The Chinese government knew what was coming. Chiang ordered Nanjing to be defended, but he had already begun moving the capital west to Chongqing taking key officials and basically all the government that he could take with him. What he left behind was just confusion. Generals with no clear direction and soldiers without any clear coordination, and civilians with basically no protection. Then General Tang Shang Zi was put in charge with around 100,000 troops. Most of them were exhausted and hungry and just poorly armed. After this slaughter in Shanghai, meanwhile, the Japanese army advanced with speed and fury and just closed in on the city and as fast as they could. And by early December, everyone inside Nanjing basically understood the same thing, that the end was basically here. The walls of the city, built by the Hongwu Emperor, founder of the Ming dynasty, that had protected Nanjing for centuries, had now become a prison, basically. And by December, Japanese forces surrounded the entire city on three sides, leaving just the Yangtze River, China's longest river, basically forming the city's northern edge, as the last possible escape route. So Chinese General Tang Shang Zi had promised to fight to the end. But inside the city, the army was already falling apart. Communication was broken down, supply lines were gone, and entire units were just cut off, basically fighting alone with no orders, no food, and no hope. And by December 12th, panic took over. Tang finally ordered an official retreat. But the command came way too late, and it just spread too slowly. Some troops never even heard it or got mixed messages and confusion quickly turned into chaos. Soldiers just abandoned their positions and rushed toward the river, desperate to escape before the Japanese forces closed in. And at the city gates, the retreat turned into a massacre. Thousands of soldiers and civilians jammed into the narrow exits while artillery just pounded from behind. People pushed and they screamed, and men were trampled as they were trying to get out. Families were crushed. It was just absolutely chaos. And those who made it through reached the riverbank only to find that it was already overflowing with tens of thousands of people waiting for boats that were never going to come. So some soldiers tore off their uniforms and just tried to blend in. Others jumped into the freezing river and drowned, and a few managed to force their way onto boats, basically leaving everyone else behind. What should have been some organized withdrawal or some type of diplomatic surrender just collapsed into a night of confusion and panic. And when the sun rose on December 13, 1937, the Japanese army just walked into Nanjing. The city had no defenders left, really. All their forces were either confused or deserted. No leadership, just walls and civilians trapped inside. So while the Chinese command escaped the city, a small group of foreigners chose to stay. They knew exactly what was coming, but they stayed anyway. At the center of that group was a man named John Robb, a German businessman who lived in Nanjing for years. He was part of Siemens and was basically controlling the entire operations for the company while in Nanjing and had lived there for decades. And he was also a member of the Nazi party. And what's interesting about him is people call him one of the greatest humanitarians of the 20th century, and they call him the good Nazi of Nanjing. And according to him and his sources, he joined the Nazi party for practical reasons, like getting the funds for this Sino German school, and partially because he believed that Germany and Japan's alliance could actually protect civilians. Alongside him were American missionaries and doctors and professors. Minnie Vautrin, who ran the Ginling College for Women and basically refused to abandon her students. Dr. Robert Wilson, a surgeon born in Nanjing to missionary parents who returned after medical training at Harvard and spoke fluent Mandarin. Together, they carved out the International Safety Zone. This was a. A designated area meant to shelter civilians from violence. About one and a half square miles on the west side of the city. It included Ginling College, the university hospital, and the American Embassy compound. They marked the borders with flags and banners that anyone could see from the air. And they sent letters to Japanese commanders just begging them to treat the zone as neutral ground. They opened the doors to anyone who showed up. Families, wounded soldiers, kids wandering the streets alone. And they knew the crowds would be endless and that their protection was fragile, but they did it anyway. They had already heard warnings and stories from Shanghai, from earlier bombings, from the people pouring into the city, and they knew exactly what kind of army was on the way. And still they stayed. Not soldiers or politicians, just ordinary people that refused to abandon their students, their employees, or just the citizens that they lived with in their town. Just basically trying to hold on to one small patch of humanity in the middle of what was about to become hell on earth. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you something. The holidays wrecked me. Yeah. Travel. I mean, it was eating whatever I wanted. I wasn't working out, and I just hit January and I felt like I was 100 years old. What I didn't realize that I now know is that your body. My body starts losing collagen way earlier than you think, like mid-20s. And that's why recovery sucks. I mean, your joints will feel stiff and your hair will get thin and your skin will look tired. All that. And that's why I started taking Bubs. Natural Collagen Peptides. Yes. Everyone's tossing around that P word. And I'm telling you Bubs is the best one. I toss it in my coffee in the morning and you don't even taste it. It dissolves instantly. It doesn't like clump up or anything like that. And honestly, I feel better. I recover faster, my joints feel better, and I just feel less like I got hit by a car. It's like the first New Year's resolution that I actually kept up with. And what I also like is that Bubs and is a legit brand. There's no sugar, there's no fillers. It's third party tested. It is Whole 30 approved. It's NSF certified for sports, all the good stuff. And on top of that, they donate 10% of the profits to charity honoring Glenn Bub Dy who is a Navy SEAL who was killed in Benghazi. So it's not just wellness and going to make you feel better. It's also built on something real that'll make the world better. They also do electrolytes, mct, oil creamer, all the clean stuff. So great news for you. And is that right now you're going to get 20% off your entire order? Yes, that's what you get for being a camp listener. 20% off the entire order. When you go to Bubs. Naturals, that's B U B S Naturals. N a T u r a l s dot com and use the code camp at checkout. And after you buy, they're going to ask you how you heard about them. Tell them that Camp Gagnon sent you. Yeah, the diesel peptided up, bro. Over at Camp Gagnon. All right, let them know. And it actually helps the show grow and it helps keep the fire burning here and at the campsite. All right, now let's get back to it. So December 13, 1937. At dawn, Japanese troops pushed through the city gates and stepped into positions from retreating Chinese soldiers that they had left behind. Their uniforms were dirty, their faces were worn from months of just non stop fighting. And their commanders didn't bother to hold them back at all. What entered Nanjing that morning wasn't a disciplined army doing some type of technical operation. It was anger just let loose with full permission. And the violence started immediately. Small groups of soldiers moved house to house. Doors were kicked in, people were dragged outside. Gunfire and screams just filled the alleyways that had been quiet for generations. Fires were breaking out everywhere. Shops were looted, homes were just set ablaze with families still inside. And by nightfall, the sky was continuing to glow orange and a thick smoke hung over the city. Basically just being destroyed in real Time and families were just running towards the safety zone, clutching their children, carrying their elderly parents or grandparents on their back, just leaving everything behind. And some made it through the gates. Others were caught on the roads and shot or beaten to death wherever they fell. And the Japanese army didn't enter Nanjing as conquerors. They entered as men who no longer saw the people in front of them as human beings. The discipline was gone. The mercy of was no longer. The same day, John Robb drove through the city, trying to make sense of this devastation. In his diary he wrote, Every 100 or 200 meters, we came across corpses. The Japanese march through the city in groups of 10 to 20 men, looting shops. Had I not seen it with my own eyes, I would have not believed it. Rob had lived in China for 30 years. He'd seen famine and riots and wars. I mean, he was a member of the Nazi party, but he had never seen anything like this. Nanjing wasn't being conquered. It was just being erased. And this was only the beginning. The killings didn't stop for weeks. Japanese troops rounded up Chinese men by the thousands. It didn't matter who they were. Soldiers who had surrendered, civilians who had never touched a weapon. Teenage boys who barely even understood what was happening. Old men who could barely even stand. If you look like you might have been a soldier, you were taken. They were marched to open fields, riverbanks, empty lots along the Yangtze river, any space big enough to hold hundreds at a time. And then the executions began. Sometimes machine guns tore through entire lines of prisoners at once, just bodies dropping into mass graves or tumbling into the river to just drift downstream. Sometimes men were tied to posts and used for bayonet practice, stabbing again and again to teach these new recruits how to kill. Others were doused in gasoline or just burned alive. The killing was so relentless. The bodies were. Were so many that no one could even agree on the true number of casualties. Most modern historians estimate the death toll to be over 100,000, though China officially commemorates the number as 300,000. At the riverbank near the Straw String Gorge, men stood with their hands tied, watching the ones ahead of them collapse under gunfire, just knowing that they were next. And they begged, they cried out for their families. They prayed. And behind their voices just came the crack of rifles and the thuds of bayonets and the splash of bodies falling into the river. The Japanese officers stood nearby, just smoking cigarettes as they watched. There was no mercy. Wounded soldiers were dragged from hospital beds and killed on the floor. Others who surrendered under white flags, doing everything the laws of War demanded were marched to open ground and shot anyway. All the rules meant to protect these prisoners and, and these surrendered soldiers and civilians just didn't exist. Even General Matsui Iwane, the Japanese commander, admitted days later, my men have done something very wrong and extremely regrettable. But by then, the violence had taken on a life of its own. No apology whispered or shouted or officially decreed was enough to stop what had already begun. And no part of the massacre was more brutal or targeted than the violence against the women. Japanese soldiers hunted them through homes and streets, just dragging them out regardless of their age. Begging didn't matter. Resisting made it worse. Many were assaulted or killed on the spot, while others were taken into barracks or these comfort stations where the abuse just continued. Women were attacked everywhere, sometimes by dozens of soldiers, and many more were murdered or mutilated in ways that are honestly just too horrific to describe. This is often why it is called the of Nanjing. I mean, for the sake of YouTube and not just getting completely blasted off the platform, we will continue to call it the Nanjing Massacre, but that's why that term exists. A woman by the name of Li Jiuying, who was seven months pregnant at the time, tried to fight off the soldiers who stormed her home and they stabbed her 37 times and left her to die. Miraculously, she lived, but lost her child in the process and carried the scars, both physical and emotional, for the rest of her life. And she actually became one of the few women willing to speak publicly about what had happened. Jia Xu Qin was only eight when soldiers entered her home. They murdered her parents, her four siblings in front of her. They stabbed her and her younger sister and just left them in a pile of bodies. Jia survived, but her one year old sister was less fortunate. She crawled out from under her family's corpses and continued to carry that memory for the next 80 years. Inside the safety zone, many Vautrin fought desperately to hold back this nightmare. Ginling College was built for a few hundred people at most, and it ended up sheltering 10,000 women and children. Vautrin stood at the gates day after day, blocking soldiers who came looking for women to take. She knew exactly what would happen if they forced their way inside. She was threatening and she would slap and shove doing everything she could and ended up saving thousands of and the ones she couldn't save haunted her for the rest of her life. One entry from her diary captured a moment that never left her. She writes, I'll never forget the scene of people kneeling by the roadside, the whining wind and the miserable Cries of women who were being taken away. For the women who survived, the suffering didn't end when the soldiers left. They carried that trauma they couldn't speak about. In a society where shame fell on the victim and on the family, not on the attackers. Some took their own lives. Others buried the memories so deeply that even their children never really heard the full story. For decades, silence became its own kind of wound that was just fully hidden but never healed. Now, inside the safety zones, it also was never truly safe. At best, it was a fragile, foreign, guarded island of relative refuge. I mean, it covered about 4 square kilometers and offered a better chance of survival than, than the streets beyond its boundaries. But protection there was always precarious. At the height of the massacre, more than 200,000 people were crammed into a zone that was like about the size of Central park, maybe a little bit bigger. And families just slept like shoulder to shoulder in classrooms, on balconies, stairwells, anywhere that a body could fit. Hallways were bedrooms, courtyards were just public shelters, and people just laid on the sidewalks, just wrapped in blankets, trying to make it through each freezing cold night. Food was running low, water barely held out, and disease was spreading quickly through these packed crowds. Children were constantly crying from hunger or nightmares, and the elderly were just collapsing from exhaustion. And just outside the flimsy borders of the zone, gunfire and screams reminded everyone exactly what was just waiting for them beyond the flags. The Japanese army was supposed to respect the safety zone, but of course they didn't. Soldiers slipped in at night to seize women. They barged in during the day looking for Chinese soldiers hiding among civilians. They entered whenever they wanted, really. And the foreigners could only stand in their way, holding up documents and just pleading with them diplomatically, saying, it's illegal for you to do this. Sometimes they managed to turn a few soldiers back. Other times they just watched helplessly as victims were dragged out of the neutral zone. SCREAMING Rob wrote letter after letter to Japanese officers, just listing attacks in painstaking detail, pleading for protection. And he received polite replies and empty promises. And that was basically it. Dr. Robert Wilson worked almost non stop in makeshift operating rooms, improvised with, you know, what little supplies they had and staff, and at times operating without even adequate anesthetics. And he recorded in detail the deaths that followed when basic tools or the drugs were lacking. The missionaries handed out food and they made bathrooms and tried to keep the zone from collapsing basically under the weight of how many people were there. They did everything that they could, but it was never enough. The prayers weren't answered. The suffering didn't stop. And day after day, week after week, even the foreigners, the strongest, most determined, began to break under the weight of what they saw. By early January, Nanjing barely looked like a city anymore. It looked like something pulled out of a nightmare. Bodies just laid there where people had fallen weeks earlier, just frozen in the winter cold, untouched, because there was no one even left to bury them and no place to put them, even if there had been. Stray dogs were moving in packs, literally feeding on the dead. Buildings were just empty shells, blackened by fire, the insides completely looted and stripped bare. The people who survived walk through this landscape like shadows. Some searched to reconnect with their families, who would never be found. Others went back to what used to be their homes and stood in front of the ruins, trying to understand how everything could just vanish so quickly. They scavenged for food in burned out shops. They curled up in corners of destroyed buildings just to try to stay out of the wind. They weren't really living, they were just almost zombies, pushing through each day because there was nothing left to do. The Yangtze river carried bodies for miles, just drifting, washing onto riverbanks far beyond the city. And the the smell of decay just hung in the air, mixed with smoke and fires that seemed like they never fully died out. And inside this nightmare, a few foreigners still in Nanjing kept documenting everything. Photographs, diary entries, shaky early film footage trying to record what was happening, even when it felt hopeless. Their notes would later become evidence. At the time, it just felt like they were shouting into the void. In the safety zone, life was barely hanging on. The children stopped playing, the adults spoke only when they had to. And people were just so drained that even basic emotions were too heavy. Everyone was just numb and disassociated, emotionally shut down after weeks of violence and grief without break. The massacre didn't end because anyone showed mercy. It ended because the violence finally just burned itself out. By late January and into February, Japanese commanders began pulling their troops back under control. The execution slowed down, but the violence still continued. The killings persisted into early February and the atrocities didn't fully cease until late March, when a government was finally established. Looting faded only because there was basically nothing left to take. And the assaults didn't stop. But they became less constant than before. Pressure from outside China actually started to matter at this point. Reporters from foreigners inside Nanjing would send letters and telegrams and diary entries just describing everything that they had witnessed. And finally, Western newspapers started printing the story, shocking readers around the world. Governments were taking notice. Japan at the time denied everything, but the evidence continued to Pile up. And even some Japanese officers realized the massacre was turning into a global scandal. Orders were finally issued to rein in the troops. For the survivors, the end of the killing didn't mean the end of the suffering. I mean, the city's entire economy had collapsed. Food was scarce, if available at all. Disease was spreading quickly. In the cold and in the rubble and in the shelters, families searched lists of the dead, hoping for a miracle and often finding none. They tried to rebuild their lives from almost nothing while carrying this trauma that they didn't even have words for. Inside the safety zone, the foreigners shifted from emergency survival to long term relief. They helped refugees return to whatever remained of their homes. And they set up kitchens and clinics and makeshift schools. And they continued to document everything. Eyewitness accounts, diaries, photos. Because they knew that the world needed to see the evidence. They understood one thing very clearly. What happened in Nanjing couldn't be allowed to disappear into the silence. The reckoning didn't come until after Japan's eventual defeat in 1946. The International Military Tribunal for the Far east finally laid out the full scope of what had happened at Nanjing. The evidence was overwhelming. The photographs and the survivor testimony and even confessions from Japanese soldiers who could no longer live with the guilt of what they had done. Some veterans, once allowed to speak honestly, just admitted everything. One former Japanese military organization, after trying to disprove the accusations, ended up facing so much evidence from its own members that it issued this statement. Whatever the severity of war or special circumstances of war psychology, we just lose words. Faced with this mass illegal killing, we simply apologize deeply to the people of China. Well, it came decades too late and it didn't speak for everyone. Many soldiers stayed silent and some denied the massacre even until their final days. But enough told the truth to build an accurate record that couldn't be erased. Chinese survivors took the stand and shared what they had lived through. The they described family members killed in front of them, terror inside the safety zones, and crimes that they witnessed in the streets. Their voices were calm, but the grief was palpable. Western witnesses supported their accounts. Their diaries once again were evidence. The photograph showed what the Japanese army assumed would never be seen. Their testimonies made denial completely impossible. The same foreigners who tried to save lives in 1937 now help the world understand the full truth. And in the end, seven Japanese leaders were executed for their role in these war crimes. General Matsui Iwani and Foreign Minister Koki Hirota were specifically persecuted for their Nanjing massacre. Many believed responsibility should have gone higher. But the tribunal could only do so much. And it was technically justice, but it was never going to mend the damage that was left behind. And today in Nanjing, there's a memorial hall built for the victims of this massacre, a huge, quiet complex visited by millions every year. Chinese students come to learn. Tourists walk through in silence. Families of survivors stand before the exhibits and remember. Inside are photographs that are honestly hard to look at, testimonies that are really difficult to hear, and artifacts pulled from these mass graves, from bones to clothing to personal items. Researchers have spent decades trying to identify the victims, carving their names into stone so that they would never be forgotten. It's part museum, part cemetery, and really, it's just a place to make sure that the world can't forget this atrocity. The survivors who lived into modern times became witnesses. They spoke in schools and gave interviews and recorded their stories on camera. Their children and grandchildren continued that work, fighting to keep Nanjing, 1937, in the world's memory. They know how easily denial creeps in and how quickly people forget what they didn't see. The foreigners who stayed, specifically Rob Vautrin and Wilson and many others, are honored in China as heroes. Their names are engraved on monuments. Their diaries are taught in classrooms. And they're remembered for one simple reason. They didn't walk away. They stayed when staying meant everything and easily could have cost them their lives. But for many, their lives were not easy. After Nanjing, many. Vautrin returned to the US in May of 1940, just emotionally shattered. And exactly one year later, on May 14, 1941, she took her own life. John Robb went back to Germany and tried to tell the world. But his Nazi party membership made him suspect to the Allies, and his testimony about Japanese war crimes made him very suspect at home. He died in poverty in 1950, almost forgotten, until his granddaughter released his diaries decades later. Dr. Robert Wilson carried the weight of what he witnessed. He testified at the Tokyo tribunal, and. And his diary entries offered the world this grim record of the atrocities. He eventually died in 1967. What's up, people? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you a little story. All right? This is a story about a man who turned 29 years old, and slowly everything started to fall apart. Not in, like, a dramatic way. Life just got more difficult, all right? You know, the same workouts all of a sudden, not getting the same gains, you know, in the musculature area, same diet all of a sudden just, you know, still being a little bit soft around the middle. And around 2pm every day just feeling terrible, brain fog, you know, and not to mention, you know, hair falling out, thinning. And that man is my friend David Sanchez. And so naturally, what did he do? He started to panic. Google, okay? He was like, low testosterone. What do I do? What do I do? And it was terrifying because doctors act like, oh, the solution's casual, like, yeah, just inject yourself with testosterone forever. Use needles, dirty old needles from the streets of Kensington, Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, whatever. All right. But then you actually look at, like, trt, you know, it's thousands of dollars a year. 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And the way you do that is you go to mengotomars.com and for a limited time, the listeners of this program are going to get 50% off for life, plus free shipping and three free gifts@ Mengotomars.com that's right, use the promo code CAMP. And you're going to be getting all that and more. And better yet, 90 day money back guarantee. If you don't like it, just be like, hey, this isn't for me. Send it back if you feel no difference, which odds are you won't. Because 91% of men say that they feel more energetic when they're taking it, but maybe you're in the 9%. You send it back, money back. I'm telling you, there's no reason not to try it. And after you purchase, they will ask you how you heard about them. Please. So you heard about it from the good old folks here at camp. It really helps the show and it keeps the fire burning. Let's get back to it. The massacre stands as proof of what happens when discipline collapses, when racism becomes policy, when individuals surrender their conscience to the crowd and to the mob. And it shows just really how thin the line is between ordinary life and massacre and how quickly everyday people can commit these unimaginable acts of violence. But it also shows another side of human nature. Even in that darkness, some refused to look away. Some refused to join in. Some risk their own lives to protect strangers. Their courage doesn't erase the horror, but in a way, it matters, right? Especially to the thousands who survived because of them. And I think the lesson of Nanjing isn't about Japan or about China. It's about what humans do when the restraints fall away and what some choose to do. Even then, the cruelty and the compassion happen side by side in the same city during the same winter. And both of these stories are real and should be remembered. The dead of Nanjing can't speak anymore. The survivors are almost gone, but the memory remains in museums and films and books, and ultimately in the minds of people who refuse to forget this atrocity. Remembering is obviously painful, and it's difficult to research and talk about, but I think it's important not to assign guilt about how these people are evil and these people are victims, but to understand the stakes of forgetting. Winter came to Nanjing in December 1937, and it brought six weeks of maybe the worst atrocity experienced, one of the worst atrocities certainly experienced in the century. That winter ended and the city rebuilt and life returned. But the shadow never fully goes away, and it sits in our history as a warning and a reminder. The city survives, the memory endures. And in that memory is hope. Not that it will never happen again, but when history begins to rhyme, people will remember Nanjing and hopefully choose differently. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the story of the Nanjing massacre. I mean, it's a heavy one, right?
- [35:14]
David Sanchez
Yeah.
- [35:15]
Mark Gagnon
I mean, I don't know. I do. I do think about the. The Mr. Rogers quote, where he's like. Like, is it Mr. Rogers? I think it is. Could you Google this? But, like, in the face of any atrocity, any terrible thing that happens, it's like you can be consumed by how evil it is, and you can just let, like, the grief and the horror consume you, or you can look for the people that are doing good and try to contribute. And in any type of atrocity, any type of evil that has befallen humanity, there's always the good people. There's always the people fighting to protect the weak and, you know, look out for disenfranchise. And I think that's.
- [35:52]
David Sanchez
Mr. Rogers said this.
- [35:53]
Mark Gagnon
I think so, yeah.
- [35:54]
David Sanchez
It was such a long quote.
- [35:56]
Mark Gagnon
Who was? The quote is, in the face of atrocity, you can be consumed by horror and grief. Yada, yada, yada. It's attributed to Gabor Mate, a Hungarian Canadian physician. Dude, I'm telling you, I think someone said it. Look for the people helping. Look for the helpers. Let me find it. When I was a boy, I would see scary things in the news and my mother would say to me, look for the helpers. You. You will always find people who are helping. And that was said by Gabor. No, that was said by Fred Rogers.
- [36:26]
David Sanchez
That's not the first quote you said.
- [36:28]
Mark Gagnon
Look, I was kind of combining some quality. You can get the vibe that I'm trying to say. Are we really going to let this great somber moment of reflection get ruined by your guys desire to be right? You're right. I'm being selfish. We're talking about the Nanjing people. Yes, thank. See, Christos. This is why the comments are ripping you every other week. I apologize. Well, every decades. Too late, Christos.
- [36:49]
David Sanchez
I. I would find it so hard to forgive a country after this.
- [36:54]
Mark Gagnon
Like, how do you.
- [36:55]
David Sanchez
How do you not just want to blow them to smithereens after that?
- [36:58]
Mark Gagnon
Well, they did get blown to smithereens and I just imagine. No, but they didn't do it. They. But I bet you someone were standing there like, oops.
- [37:06]
David Sanchez
Yeah.
- [37:07]
Mark Gagnon
Which again, don't get me wrong, one atrocity doesn't fix another atrocity.
- [37:10]
David Sanchez
But one atrocity, two atrocities. Fix, fix one atrocity.
- [37:15]
Mark Gagnon
I don't. Wait, hold on. I don't think that's true either. Hang on a second.
- [37:18]
David Sanchez
But also, it's not like we did it because you're like, yo, we got to stand up for Nanjing.
- [37:23]
Mark Gagnon
No, but there's probably like one guy that was over in, you know, the Manhattan Project being like, by the way, you heard about this? He probably told Oppenheimer afterwards. And Oppenheimer felt so guilty. He was like, I can't believe I did this. And he was like, no, but look what they did.
- [37:35]
David Sanchez
You know what they did. Yeah, but no, I mean, obviously that's not it, but like, yeah, I don't know. It's just. That is the worst thing I've ever listened to in my life.
- [37:43]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah, it's not great.
- [37:44]
David Sanchez
It's. It's horrible. And like, I don't know, again, this is.
- [37:48]
Mark Gagnon
I think people are gonna be like, oh, man, Japan. Da da, da da. It's not Japan. I mean, it was Japan, of course, but like, it's humans. We have this terrible propensity to dehumanize people in the face of war and conquest and say, These are not human beings. And I just think we have to fight that tooth and nail. I mean, we did a good job of not saying any inappropriate jokes. No one did anything offensive.
- [38:10]
David Sanchez
It's kind of hard to fit it in, Like, I couldn't really.
- [38:13]
Mark Gagnon
Good. Okay, That's a good sign. I mean, sure, we can have a couple hahas now just at the end for the people that are still tuned in.
- [38:18]
David Sanchez
Yeah, levity.
- [38:19]
Mark Gagnon
Levity.
- [38:20]
David Sanchez
Right, levity.
- [38:21]
Mark Gagnon
I think that's the moral. Okay. That's how I choose to interpret the story. Despite it being so vicious and brutal and. And evil. There are good people. And if you have an option and you're faced with an impossible circumstance, try to be like Chinese, old Rob. Try to be like old Dr. Wilson. I wonder what the Germans think about Rob. Well, that's crazy, right? Yeah, I mean, for. Because apparently he stayed because he was like, oh, I'm German. We're allied with the Japanese. I can help facilitate some diplomatic kind of vibes here. But I mean, obviously it works in some capacity. So, I mean, he's admirable. I mean, again, these people could have been killed just outright, but I don't know, dude. I can't. I wonder what happens with these soldiers that deal with this grief, you know what I mean? Like, the casualties of these types of genocides, if you can call it that. I mean, this is probably technically a genocide, right? Like. Yeah, I know. I feel like I haven't heard people describe it as a genocide. Can you look up if it.
- [39:20]
David Sanchez
I don't know if it would fit under the description of genocide, but all.
- [39:23]
Mark Gagnon
That to say, like, these types of massacres, it affects, obviously the people that are killed, but it deeply affects the psyche of the people that do it. Like, these are normal people that carry this out. Sure, there are sadistic psychopaths that are carrying out these operations, but they're just also regular, everyday Japanese dudes that join the army and then get brainwashed and they get broken down in their psyche to commit these atrocities and they still have to live with that.
- [39:45]
David Sanchez
Yeah. The Nazis had the excuse that they were all on meth and they were part of, like, not all of them.
- [39:50]
Mark Gagnon
I mean, sure, some. But then even with that, like, you do stuff on meth and then you get out of it and you're like, I can't believe I did that. Your memory still stays with, even if it's not conscious, like, subconsciously, these things are still in your psyche and it affects your own country. Like carrying out these immense acts of violence, it affects the people that have done it, not as much, but in a way, certainly.
- [40:10]
David Sanchez
Yeah. I mean, I guess the psychosis of, like, Japanese soldiers is that they're getting pushed, like, hey, Japanese imperialism. These people are subhuman. We're taking back. We're like, conquering Asia because it belongs to us. And like, that rallying cry can really, like, amp people up for months.
- [40:24]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah. And really years, like, straight up, like. So I guess that's maybe that's the lesson. Yeah. We're taught all the time, like, you know, these are these types of atrocities, never again. So wait, but it's going to happen again. When did this end?
- [40:37]
David Sanchez
This ended in 1938, technically.
- [40:39]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah.
- [40:40]
David Sanchez
So the war still went on for.
- [40:42]
Mark Gagnon
Seven years after this, and there was no retribution, no tribunal, no justice, until Imperial Japan actually fell in 46.
- [40:50]
David Sanchez
How can the country that practice Shinto ism also do this, bro?
- [40:54]
Mark Gagnon
Well, it's not like a very, like, rigid religious structure. They don't have, like, rules. Like, it's just kind of like a spiritual embrace of nature.
- [41:02]
David Sanchez
How much of Japanese culture today is shifted by their imperialists?
- [41:07]
Mark Gagnon
I don't know. I mean, my presumption would be that the wake of this absolutely affected them. And that, like, the warrior mentality just kind of shifted. And that, like, you have American reconstruction in Japan that, like, massively takes hold. And so, like, being imported with American values, I think does change, like, the cultural psyche. But furthermore, like, a lot of the salarymen that, like, sort of uphold Japanese culture and like, the economic viability of the country, it seems like based off of stuff I've read, like, specifically with the surrender of the Japanese in 46. 45.
- [41:41]
David Sanchez
Yeah.
- [41:43]
Mark Gagnon
Oh, brother. Now I sound like a dumbass.
- [41:46]
David Sanchez
No, you're good, bro.
- [41:47]
Mark Gagnon
This. The surrender of the Japanese at some point 45. The emperor comes out and he gives a speech in 45. Oh, yes.
- [41:57]
David Sanchez
Dang.
- [41:58]
Mark Gagnon
Sorry. The eventual surrender of the Japanese of 45, which is what I said, according to the edit that the Emperor came out and basically gave this speech. Basically like, hey, the war's not over. We're just shifting our fight to an economic fight.
- [42:12]
David Sanchez
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Mark Gagnon
And so, like, these salarymen, like, kind of take on the honor of these soldiers to be like, yeah, we're going to continue to fight through economic means.
- [42:20]
David Sanchez
Yeah.
- [42:21]
Mark Gagnon
So as a result, they become like, an economic powerhouse and are like, what, the fifth largest economy in the world despite being a tiny island.
- [42:26]
David Sanchez
Them and Germany and West Germany had like, a very similar character arc post war of becoming, like, very shameful, but also, like, atone. For their sins and then became like this beautifully well run society.
- [42:37]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah.
- [42:37]
David Sanchez
Of like very good people.
- [42:39]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah.
- [42:39]
David Sanchez
And a lot. I mean, it's probably the guilt. Also, you did a video on that Japanese scientist during World War II. What was it called? Camp One, like some.
- [42:49]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah, Unit 731. Yeah.
- [42:52]
David Sanchez
So I'm just trying to think that the massacre, the Nanjing massacre and then Pearl Harbor. Japanese were. Motherfuckers.
- [43:01]
Mark Gagnon
Were. Yeah, these were.
- [43:04]
David Sanchez
These were bad hombres.
- [43:05]
Mark Gagnon
Bad hombres, dude. They were. They were. They were buck wild. And I don't. I don't know why or how. I think there is, like, more of. I actually heard an interesting theory, anthropologically speaking, that, like, societies that subsist by rice are more embedded culturally, whereas, like wheat societies are much more like, hey, we're going to focus on, like our internal thing. We're going to build up, like our wheat fields and like, we can control it internally. And like, what you do on yours doesn't affect mine. Whereas, like, the way that the rice patties actually develop, it's like if you mess up your thing, you mess up my thing. So it creates more of a collectivist society.
- [43:38]
David Sanchez
Yeah.
- [43:39]
Mark Gagnon
So I could see, like, again, this is one anthropological theory, but I could see societies that are more collectivist could be maybe easier to turn into machines. Like you could literally like mechanize a military effort potentially through like, you know, an Asian country or an Asian army. Easier maybe, because there's more of a collectivist ideal that you could easily, like. I think it's harder to get Americans to be like, hey, you're fighting for your countrymen. Because we have less of a connection to what it actually means to be nationally American versus someone that's like a million generations Japanese.
- [44:14]
David Sanchez
Weren't the Japanese historically, before World War II, a country that was conquered? Or is it. I make that up?
- [44:21]
Mark Gagnon
I don't know. I don't think so. I think technically that the, like the island of Japan are historically ethnic Chinese.
- [44:30]
David Sanchez
Yeah.
- [44:30]
Mark Gagnon
I think they're Han, I think. Could you actually Google that? I think they're Han Chinese that came from mainland China to this island, like, I don't even know, 1500 years ago. And there was like an indigenous population that still is in the north in Hokkaido. But I wonder how.
- [44:45]
David Sanchez
What the difference is, like, of, like, ethnically. Ethnically? Yeah.
- [44:49]
Mark Gagnon
I mean, you should look. If you look at the people in Hokkaido, like the. I forget what the indigenous population is called, but they look sort of like traditional indigenous. You know what I mean? Like, they're like darker Skin. Darker skin. They kind of are, like, almost like Mongolian looking, if you will, versus, like, the quintessential Japanese person that looks more like, sick. Oh, wow.
- [45:07]
David Sanchez
The Ainu.
- [45:08]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah, the Ainu in Hokkaido.
- [45:09]
David Sanchez
Center in Hokkaido.
- [45:10]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah. They kind of.
- [45:11]
David Sanchez
They look Muslim.
- [45:14]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah, they're almost like Kazakh or something.
- [45:16]
David Sanchez
They have. They have darker skin, long brown beards and. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.
- [45:22]
Mark Gagnon
So, yeah, those are the indigenous Japanese.
- [45:23]
David Sanchez
So I thought that if they had been historically oppressed and taken over by other countries, and this is kind of.
- [45:28]
Mark Gagnon
Just like a retribution.
- [45:30]
David Sanchez
A retribution?
- [45:31]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah. I mean, every place has been conquered. You know, like, we talk about, like, Native American tribes, and it's like the Ojibwe conquered some other tribe.
- [45:38]
David Sanchez
And they look so different from the.
- [45:40]
Mark Gagnon
Interesting Japanese people ethnically. I mean, not ethnically, but they're Japanese. They're the original OGs.
- [45:45]
David Sanchez
Yeah. And, like, not obviously, like. Like, the eyes aren't as slanted. They look Native American.
- [45:50]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah.
- [45:50]
David Sanchez
Yeah. That's so interesting. Also, like, Indian a little bit.
- [45:53]
Mark Gagnon
Yeah. It's an interesting ripple. But anyway, that is the story and the analysis of Nanjang. Don't lose hope. Be on the side of the good guys. You know what? It is in your heart to treat humanity and all humanity as sacred. That is, I think, the lesson of. That's how I. That's how I interpret Christianity. All humanity is sacred, and I'm deeply passionate about humanity. Don't lose that, all right. In the face of atrocity and genocide. Look for the helpers. Join them. Anyway, this has been a morbid and, you know, somewhat important episode of camp. I appreciate you guys tuning in. If you're a fan of this episode, I got great news. We got a bunch of other episodes on World War II on this channel. Camp Gagnon. Make sure you subscribe. We also have History Camp. If you specifically like History Deep Dives, you can check that out. We also have Religion Camp. My pal David brought up Shintoism. You can check out the whole episode we did on that on Religion Camp. You can also check it out on Spotify. We got all the episodes there on the camp gag on Spotify. Thank you guys so much for tuning in, and I will see you all next time. Peace. This episode is sponsored by me. Yes, Camp R and D. That is the merch. That is the threads that we'd be wearing around here at the campsite. And we got all sorts of cool stuff. My buddy Zach just cooked up a sick UFO collection. You can go check it out there at Camp R D. I really appreciate you guys, we had so many people that came through for the holidays and picked up their threads. It's awesome. We got hats, hoodies, T shirts, all that. And if you're still listening to this and you didn't skip through, congrats. You got a promo code. All right, what do we do? Christos? 5% more. How much 5 more? 10%. 10%? Final offer. You won't go higher? You tell me. What do we give them? 12%. All right, we're doing 12% off. Should we go more? Hey, it's your world. I'm just living in it. Let's round up. 10%. No, 15%. If you use the promo code, Camp 15, you're gonna be getting 15% off. Yes. I think we should also do Camp 10. Just if someone doesn't want to take too much. Camp 10 or Camp 15, those are the only two that are available. And then maybe we send a little something extra to the ones that do 10. If you do Camp 10, maybe there's something extra. No promises, but it's an interesting experiment. I just am curious to see what you guys do. Camp 10 or Camp 15 at Camp R D? When you check out, you're gonna be getting those discounts. Thank you so much for rocking with us and wearing the threads. It keeps the lights on. It keeps the fire burning.