The WWII Doctor Who Did Most Disturbing Human Experiment Ever | UNIT 731

Summary

Camp Gagnon Episode Summary
Episode Title: The WWII Doctor Who Did Most Disturbing Human Experiment Ever | UNIT 731
Host: Mark Gagnon
Release Date: April 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this chilling episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves into one of World War II's darkest chapters—the horrific human experimentation conducted by Shiro Ishii and his unit within the Japanese Imperial Army. The episode meticulously explores the establishment, operations, and aftermath of Unit 731, shedding light on the atrocities committed and the subsequent evasion of justice by those responsible.

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Shiro Ishii’s Background

Shiro Ishii, born in 1892 in the Chiba Prefecture, emerged as a prominent figure in Japan's medical and military spheres. After graduating from Kyoto Imperial University in 1920, Ishii's prowess in microbiology and bacteriology quickly set him apart. His dedication led him to specialize in epidemiology, pathology, and preventive medicine during his postgraduate studies, where he developed a portable water filtration system instrumental for the Japanese army [04:48].

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Establishment and Operations of Unit 731

By 1936, Ishii had ascended to the rank of Surgeon Major General, overseeing a vast network of 10,000 personnel across Asia. Under his leadership, Unit 731 was established—not only to focus on water purification but also to advance biological and chemical warfare capabilities [10:27]. This covert unit became the epicenter of some of the most brutal and inhumane experiments ever recorded.

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Atrocities and Experiments

Unit 731's experiments were grotesque and devoid of any ethical consideration. Prisoners, predominantly Chinese civilians and war captives, were subjected to:

• Infection with Deadly Pathogens: Individuals were intentionally inoculated with diseases such as anthrax, bubonic plague, and ricin to study their effects and potential as biological weapons [15:00].

• Vivisections: Prisoners were dissected alive to observe internal organ damage caused by infections. This method was believed to yield more accurate data than postmortem studies [15:29].

• Extreme Environmental Exposure: Victims were exposed to freezing temperatures and hypobaric pressures to study the limits of human endurance and the effectiveness of protective gear [28:06].

• Weaponization Tactics: Unit 731 developed porcelain bombs filled with infected fleas and other pathogens, intending to deploy them over Chinese cities to induce mass casualties [19:07].

One of the most harrowing accounts comes from Ishii’s daughter, Harumi, who stated:
"My father was a very warm-hearted person. He was so bright that people sometimes could not catch up with the speed of his thinking. And that made him irritated. And he would shout at them and sometimes cut them open alive." [17:22]

Another disturbing testimony by Professor Nakagawa Yonezo highlighted the desensitization of the experimenters:
"Some of the experiments had nothing to do with advancing the capability of germ warfare or medicine. There's such a thing as professional curiosity... performing and studying beheadings was just playing around." [35:31]

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Operations and Warfare Tactics

Unit 731 wasn't limited to biological warfare; it also explored chemical warfare and other forms of unconventional combat strategies:

• Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night: A planned Japanese attack aimed at the United States using bubonic plague-infected fleas carried by seaplanes. Although never executed due to logistical issues and internal opposition, it exemplifies the extent of Unit 731's ambitions [13:00].

• Crop Contamination: Efforts to sabotage Chinese agriculture by introducing fungal pathogens like rice blast and wheat rust to induce famine [24:00].

• Non-Military Toxins: Research into toxins derived from pufferfish venom (tetrodotoxin) and ricin to explore nerve paralysis and organ failure effects [24:30].

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Post-War Fate of Shiro Ishii and Colleagues

Despite the magnitude of their crimes, Ishii and his associates largely evaded justice post-World War II. As Soviet forces advanced, Ishii ordered the destruction of Unit 731's facilities and the execution of remaining prisoners to eliminate evidence [27:04].

However, the United States, driven by Cold War interests, brokered a deal granting immunity to Ishii in exchange for access to his research and data [32:05]. Ishii subsequently lectured at the U.S. Biological Warfare Center in Maryland, further embedding his legacy within scientific circles without facing legal repercussions [37:56].

Other members of Unit 731 followed similar paths:

• Ryoshi Niyato: Co-founder who established the Green Cross Company, later implicated in post-war scandals but faced no significant legal consequences [37:56].
• Masaji Kitano: Initially believed to have been executed for his role, he instead rose to prominence as the president of Japan's National Institute of Health, continuing his scientific career without acknowledgment of past crimes [34:16].

Ishii himself died in 1959 from laryngeal cancer, his final years marked by his covert escape from accountability and continued influence in post-war scientific communities [46:11].

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Conclusion and Reflections

Mark Gagnon concludes the episode by reflecting on the moral dilemmas posed by Unit 731’s actions. The chilling equalization of individual lives against the perceived greater good underscores the depths of human depravity during wartime. The lack of accountability for Ishii and his cohorts raises unsettling questions about justice and historical memory.

As David aptly summarizes:
"One tragedy or no. 1 death is a tragedy." [49:53]

The episode serves as a stark reminder of the potential for evil within humanity and the importance of remembering and learning from history's darkest moments to prevent their recurrence.

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Notable Quotes

• Harumi Ishii (Shiro Ishii’s Daughter):
  "My father was a very warm-hearted person... sometimes could not catch up with the speed of his thinking. And he would shout at them and sometimes cut them open alive." [17:22]

• Professor Nakagawa Yonezo:
  "Some of the experiments had nothing to do with advancing the capability of germ warfare or medicine... performing and studying beheadings was just playing around." [35:31]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Camp Gagnon offers a harrowing exploration of Unit 731 and Shiro Ishii's legacy, highlighting the immense suffering inflicted and the subsequent evasion of justice. It's a powerful reminder of the atrocities that can occur when scientific endeavors are perverted by malicious intent, serving as a call to vigilance against such horrors in the future.

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Note: This summary excludes all advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the episode's main narrative and discussions.

Transcript

[Mark Agnon]

Doctors. They are some of the most respected and honorable professionals in our society today. Across every culture, across all time, doctors were given special privilege, and most people like them. If you get sick, who do you go to? None other than a doctor. But what happens when they become evil, when they go rogue? When they pervert their duty to protect people with the goals of their country and their military? That's right. Biological weapons warfare that is done with bacteria that gets into people's food and kills hundreds of thousands. Well, today we're going to be discussing exactly that. Perhaps the most evil doctor to ever exist. He is a part of the Japanese Imperial Army. His name is Shiro Ishii. He was the director of unit 731. This was perhaps the most morbid and dark moments of World War II. This was an experimental torture chamber where this guy, this doctor, would perform the most unthinkable experiments on actual human beings. And today, we will be going through some of these atrocities, some of these war crimes, the actual experiments that were done, why they were done, and ultimately what happened to Shiro Ishii and his other colleagues at the end of World War II. Spoiler alert. Nothing. So if you are interested in the dark facets of war and the atrocities that humankind can do unto herself, well, this is the episode for you. So, you know, sit back, relax, you know, maybe make yourself a martini and welcome to camp. What's up, people? And welcome back to camp. Today we're going to be taking a deep dive on one of the most evil doctors to ever walk the face of the earth. I mean, as you can imagine, you know, doctors, they're there, they're committed to your health. They're trying to help humanity take us, you know, into the. Into the future by giving us drugs, medicine, surgeries, whatever we need to preserve our health. But what happens when a doctor's incentives get perverted? When they're now working with their own government and military to kill their adversaries using biochemical weapons, trying to infect their, you know, enemies with nerve gas and toxins to kill them in the hundreds of thousands? Well, that's what we're talking about today. And no, this is, you know, not going to be the World War II evil doctor that you thought. You know, we're not talking about the Nazis necessarily. We're talking about the Japanese Imperial army, specifically a guy named Shiro Ishii. You may not have heard of him. I didn't really know about him until recently. And this guy was maybe probably one of the most evil, evil humans to ever walk the face of the Earth. He operated a thing called unit 731, which. Which was effectively, I don't know. You ever seen the movie? Saw it was basically that it was a torture chamber, an experimental unit that was basically taking, you know, prisoners of war and performing the most evil, atrocious acts and experiments that you could imagine on them to then test what happens when you do evil stuff to people. And maybe there's some research that can be gleaned from what they had done. And that's what we'll find out at the end, that all the people involved with this program basically were given, you know, immunity. Nothing really happened to them. There was no criminal record. There was no sound, you know, no. No music they had to face. We're gonna explore what they did, why they did it, and what happened to all the players. As everything unfolded at the end of World War II, you're gonna. You're gonna need a comedian on YouTube to discuss it. In order to keep the world from, you know, falling into the hands of evil once again. Today, I'm joined by my friend David and my friend Christos. What's up, David?

[David]

Hi.

[Mark Agnon]

Is that a lighter? Yep. Nice. Okay. Not a weapon. I don't even know if we're allowed to show that on YouTube. So let's start at the beginning. Unit 731 is a covert biological chemical warfare research unit of the Imperial Japanese Army. It was headed up by a guy named Lt. Gen. Shiro Ishii, and they basically conducted some of the most bizarre, brutal, and morbid experiments ever done on human beings, ever. This guy's probably, I would say, up there with one of the most evil doctors to ever exist. So let's dive in, shall we? Born in 1892 into a wealthy family in the Chiba Prefecture, Shiro Ishii studied medicine in Kyoto and graduated in 1920. This guy was kind of a beast, I'll be honest. He was just a regular dude doing science stuff in Japan. All right. Typical. He was great with faculty. He was really high rank in his class. He was actually so well liked amongst the academia at Kyoto Imperial University, he ends up marrying the daughter of the university president in 1920. Kind of sick.

[David]

Nice.

[Mark Agnon]

Dogging out the president's daughter. So far, the guy's living a regular life, doing his thing. 1921, he's commissioned as the army surgeon, basically a lieutenant in Tokyo's first Army Hospital, and basically goes through this medical college. And the colleagues at the college note he has a bit of a abrasive personality. A little bit grating. But his dedication to microbiology, specifically bacteriology was amazing. And he was so focused on this one specific dedicated science and, and he was staying up late night in the labs, just cooking up, you know what I mean? In 1924, Ishii goes back to Kyoto Imperial University for postgrad and specializes in epidemiology, pathology and preventative medicine. His research included developing a portable water filtration system which later became a key tool for the Japanese army. So far the guy is just a regular doctor citizen academic that's working to help his people. During this period, he became fascinated by biology. Oops. It happens to the best of us, right? We all go to college, we get like a little thing that we get into. What was yours? Mine, I would say was probably stand up comedy, which you could argue is maybe worse than back to biological warfare. I mean, I don't know, I would rather, I'd rather go see a comedy show than mustard gas, but alrighty. Don't skip forward guys, because I am on the road. World's fastest ad read coming at you. Going to be in Charleston, South Carolina, Atlanta, Stroudsburg, Hoboken, Indianapolis, Buffalo, Raleigh, Poughkeepsie, Portland, Oregon, Fort Worth, Texas, Austin, Texas, Stanford, Philly, Levittown, Chandler, Arizona, San Diego. I'm also going to be adding Toronto, Montreal, as well as Washington D.C. and a bunch of other dates. You can get all that@the markagnon.com dates are in the description. Also in probably the comments of this episode. Go see me on the road. Come hang out. I'll be hanging out with everyone after the show. Come shake my hand, call me an idiot, whatever you want to do, I will be there. Additionally, I will be doing my one hour of standup comedy. I'm very proud of this hour. I'm really excited to share with you guys and it would mean the world if everyone could come on out. And what do you wear to a show on the road? That's a great question. You can go to campgoods Co. That's right. We got merch, we got camp merch, we got hats, hoodies, T shirts. A lot of stuff is out of stock. Things have been selling like hot cakes. But we're going to be restocking everything in all the sizes so you can go there right now, get all the merch, get all the coolest clothing in the podcast game. We're going to be updating that site regularly. And if you come out to a show, I'd love to see you sporting some of the threads that we got up online. I'll see you guys there. Imagine this.

[Christos]

You're 30ft underground, digging through frozen earth with spoons and mess hall plates. Nazi guards patrol overhead. One wrong move, one loose pebble, and it's over. But on this night in 1944, 76 Allied prisoners would attempt the impossible, tunneling their way to freedom in the largest prisoner of war escape, a World War II. And centuries earlier. In a cold stone chamber, a teenage girl in armor stood before her accusers. Her crime? Leading armies, speaking to angels, and daring to challenge the most powerful men in Europe. Joan of Arc's trial would become one of history's most infamous moments. These are just two stories from Today in History, the newsletter that brings you the most fascinating events from the past, delivered from fresh to your inbox. From epic wars to religious rebellions, ancient mysteries to modern marvels, don't miss another piece of history.

[Mark Agnon]

Scan the QR code now or click.

[Christos]

The link in the description to sign up for Today in History.

[Mark Agnon]

I don't know. People go to college, they get into all sorts of weird things, right? Badminton, bowling. Badminton, bisexuality. What did you get into in college at the University of Tampa?

[David]

Don't dox me. I got into women, okay?

[Mark Agnon]

See, yeah, that's biological warfare. So in 1925, the Geneva Protocol banned chemical and biological weapons, right? Coming off the heels of World War I, mustard gas had been used in the trenches. People are going home with, you know, nerve diseases and all sorts of terrible ailments. And so Geneva comes together, which. I don't even know why we trust the Swiss with this shit. But Geneva comes together, they say, hey, no more biological weapons. And this peaks Shiro's interest. He goes, wait, what are these weapons? He argued that such bans indicated their strategic potential and lobbied military leaders to invest in their development. That's kind of a backfire if you. If you ask me, right? Like, the. The mil. The. The. The good guys are like, hey, don't use this. And this guy's like, wait, if they're saying not to use it, we should obviously use it, right? Like, that's kind of like a Streisand effect. You try to, like, stop this thing on the Internet, and all of a sudden, it goes everywhere. So Ishii is promoted the surgeon captain in 1925, and he starts conducting field research on epidemics in Shikoku and Taiwan. His work on dysentery and typhus solidified his reputation as an expert in disease control. In 1928, Ishii went on, what you could Call like a tour, you know, maybe like an internship perhaps. Nordstrom brings you the season's most wanted brands, Skims, Mango Free People, and Princess Polly, all on under $100. From trending sneakers to beauty must haves, we've curated the styles you'll wear on repeat this spring. Free shipping, free returns and in store pickup make it easier than ever. Shop now in stores [e-mail].

[D]

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[David]

Go to your happy price.

[Mark Agnon]

Priceline of Western institution institutions to gather more knowledge in the U.S. this includes the Rockefeller Institute in the United States. Uh oh, I smell a conspiracy, right? He goes to the Rockefeller Institute and all of a sudden learns everything about, I don't know, chemical warfare. During this tour, Ishii was exposed to advanced bacteriology and their techniques. Ishii later claimed the trip inspired his vision for large scale biological weapons research. So by 1930, he becomes a professor at the Army Medical College in Tokyo, where he established the Epidemic Prevention research laboratory. By 1936, ISHII is a very savvy political navigator and also a very bright doctor. So with this efficiency plus, you know, political connections, he propels himself to be the leader of this thing called unit 731. This is a facility that's dedicated for, you know, water purification for troops, but also because of Ishii's interest in biological weapons, basically doing chemical warfare development. Right. So it's a, it's a twofold, it's a wide spectrum. Yeah, we do a little water over here, a little, you know, giving people diseases over here. Maybe that, maybe it's one of the same. Maybe that's why they put fluoride in our water to keep you guys stupid. Anyway, that's a, that's a theory. I don't believe that. Basically, they're trying to mask the atrocities that are going to happen at this unit 731. And again, this is 1936. This is prior to Japan allying with the Germans in World War II. Right, that happens in the 40s. But at this point, World War II is already basically, you know, kicking off in Europe and, you know, they can see what's going on. So by 1941, he's promoted to Surgeon Major General. This is overseeing a network of 10,000 personnel across Asia. His operations include, you know, testing pathogens on prisoners, planned attacks like the abandoned 1945 US bioweapon strike, Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night, which is a very cute name. Operations Cherry Blossoms. Can you, can you Google that? What is Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night?

[David]

Oh, at Night's part of it, yeah. Oh, okay.

[Mark Agnon]

Well, you thought that was just.

[David]

They do, they would do Cherry Blossoms at Night.

[Mark Agnon]

Is this a spongebob episode? Maybe we're doing Cherry blossoms. So Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night, as it has come to my attention, was a planned Japanese military attack on civilians in the United States using biological weapons during World War II. The proposal was basically for the Japanese Navy submarines to launch seaplanes that would deliver weaponized bubonic plague into the United States. Developed at unit 731. I mean, that's way worse than Pearl Harbor. Like Pearl Harbor? I mean. Yeah, I mean, that's crazy. Like, low key. If this had happened all the rest of World War II, you know, like the big, you know, the two strike solution we hit, you know, the socket bomb, that would have been more justified. Again, I'm not saying it's justified, but once you see that, like, yo, they were planning on launching bubonic plague in America in the 40s, I mean, that's insane. But this operation was abandoned shortly afterwards because the planning, you know, was, was faulty. And there was strong opposition from the general of, of the Japanese army, which is good, I guess. You know, Cooler has prevailed. But this guy still is, is, is cooking at unit 731. And yeah, as you had mentioned before, David, the R word of Nan Jing. Nan King. I don't know how to pronounce that.

[David]

I, I always heard it as King.

[Mark Agnon]

That's what I always thought. But apparently Nan Jing. And basically this was a massacre that the Japanese did in China. And it's worth noting, most of the people that were tortured and experimented on in unit 731, I believe were Chinese. So they kind of use as justification, just basically just go wild. So what happened there? Let's go through some of the dirty details. The prisoners were intentionally infected with diseases like anthrax or bubonic plague and then dissected alive to observe internal organ damage.

[David]

What's anthrax?

[Mark Agnon]

Just a white powder, I guess. That's all I've ever heard of be but I think it's like a nerve toxin. My understanding, like, it basically causes, like, nerve damage, is my understanding.

[David]

Anthrax is a disease caused by the bacteria bacillus, which typically affects animals like cattle, sheep, and goats. While rare in humans, anthrax can be transmitted through contact with infected animals, wool, meat, or hides.

[Mark Agnon]

What does it do to them?

[David]

That's what it doesn't fucking say. Transmission types in humans. Symptoms. Symptoms vary depending on the types of anthrax and include skin lesions, fever.

[Mark Agnon]

Okay.

[David]

Chills, chest pain, difficulty breathing, gastrointestinal distress, and more.

[Mark Agnon]

Doesn't seem terrible. I feel like I've had all that.

[David]

Is this, like, the medical term for, like, leprosy?

[Mark Agnon]

Oh, no. I feel leprosy.

[David]

No, leprosy is a medical term.

[Mark Agnon]

Never mind. What does even have to do with leopards? That's what I never understood. Right. I never. I never got that. But, yeah. They were infecting prisoners with diseases like anthrax, and this was done under the belief that live tissue yielded more accurate results than postmortem studies. So they were literally cutting people open alive. So you get infected with a disease and then you get cut open alive. Victims had organs removed while conscious, including the lungs and the livers, to study how long they could survive. I don't know how you get someone to a point where they're just like, yeah, who cares? Like, we can just do this on. This guy was also going home to his family. I assume he was, like, doing these experiments.

[David]

He has a family?

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I mean, let's find out if he had kids. I'm assuming he did. You know what I mean? I mean, they were doing all sorts of crazy stuff. Limbs were amputated and sometimes reattached to different parts of the body, which could be cool.

[David]

I bet you his family never got out of line.

[Mark Agnon]

Oh, yeah, they knew what he was doing. Like, I wonder if he was just doing all this. And, you know, they just were like, all right, whatever.

[David]

That was work, babe. Yeah, it was good.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, that was fun. Yeah.

[David]

Just, you know, cut open 10 million Chinese people, root to stem.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had a daughter, and his daughter Harumi felt that Shiro had been unjustly condemned. Quote, my father was a very warm hearted person. He was so bright that people sometimes could not catch up with the speed of his thinking. And that made him irritated. And he would shout at them and sometimes cut them open alive.

[David]

He was ahead of his time.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, he's just too Smart. Like, he's just thinking like ten steps ahead all the time, you know what I mean? So he's cutting off people's bodies, limbs, you know, their, their appendages, and then reattaching them at random places. They studied gangrene and frostbite effects by exposing prisoners to extreme cold before amputating their limbs. I mean, like, what are you even learning from this?

[David]

What's the point of it?

[Mark Agnon]

To literally study, like, all right, what happens if we give people these things?

[David]

Like, but is this beneficial for war?

[Mark Agnon]

I mean, if you're gonna do biological weapons, you're like, oh, what weapons should we do to subdue this population in this way?

[David]

Yeah, but don't, but don't, you know, like, hey, anthrax isn't gonna treat them.

[Mark Agnon]

Well already, but what if they are able to. Lemon juice. And then you're good, you know, I mean, it's like you launch this whole attack and then they can just, you know, get an antidote easily.

[David]

Okay.

[Mark Agnon]

I mean, I'm assuming. I don't know, I'm not a chemical weapons expert. Youth corps members, this included teenage trainees assisted the surgeons in vivisections, literally cutting people in half, often treating the acts as training exercises. Prisoners were assigned three digit numbers upon arrival and cremated after death to destroy the evidence. Those who resisted the infection were executed by gunshot or lethal injection or decapitation for brain studies. To preserve data, infected prisoners were executed via lethal injection or gunshot. Organs were then preserved in formaldehyde and shipped to Tokyo for analysis. I mean, that's insane. So this is where the biological warfare testing thing comes in. The fleas. Bred at Unit 731 Labs, the fleas were infected with bubonic plague and dropped over Chinese cities via porcelain bombs, which is a very. I feel like, how do the, the.

[David]

Fleas survive the bomb?

[Mark Agnon]

I mean, fleas are just insane.

[David]

Interesting.

[Mark Agnon]

Also, they're porcelain bombs. I'm assuming they're just dropping a vase out of a plane. And it is a very Asian bomb. Like a beautiful piece, beautiful piece of china, beautiful piece of porcelain. Like, you gotta wonder if, like, they were like, oh, yeah, we'll just drop the porcelain and they'll be so fixated by our amazing calligraphy that they won't even notice that there's fleas with plagues in them.

[David]

If you gave me the rest of my life to figure out how to mate, fleas wouldn't even.

[Mark Agnon]

Well, you ever see the flea circus? You remember that?

[David]

No.

[Mark Agnon]

Look up flea circus. If you don't mind a Flea circus was literally like a sideshow thing that they would do like carnivals and stuff and they would have these fleas. They would. Yeah, the fleas were. They would put on, put them on harnesses and they were trained to perform miniature circus acts such as pulling chariots and balancing a tightrope.

[David]

Can we search one of the dumbest thing in the world?

[Mark Agnon]

Apparently this is a very popular thing. You could get fleas to like, look at this.

[David]

That's like us walking on a sidewalk.

[Mark Agnon]

I mean, yeah, sure, they're pretty small. Yeah, but still, I mean they're pulling chariots. There's. There, there must be a. Look up a video of this, please. This would actually be really helpful.

[David]

This is clearly in like pre 20th century. There's no way there's a video of the flea circus.

[Mark Agnon]

But they. You don't think they still have fleas today? They could train up and make them into.

[David]

I would buy tickets tomorrow to the circus flea. Pull a chariot.

[Mark Agnon]

They're very expensive, they're very small arenas. But let's get a video of, of the real life fleecers. Hold on. Yeah, run this real quick. Come on, play that. Look at this. Oh, you're telling me you wouldn't spend 10 francs to see this?

[David]

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[E]

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[David]

But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try.

[E]

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[Mark Agnon]

Ball for Buzzballs ready to go. Cocktails take 12. Buzzballs just dropped their biggest blue balls. Script says Biggie's blue balls. Lonzo take 13. Blue balls just dropped their biggest buzz balls.

[David]

Ugh.

[Mark Agnon]

Let's try a vocal exercise. Buzz balls. Biggies. Blue balls. Buzz balls.

[David]

Biggies.

[Mark Agnon]

Blue balls. Big balls. Just drop. Get blue balls this season with buzz balls. Please read responsibly. Buzz balls available in spirit, wine and malt, 15% alcohol by volume. Buzzballs ll this is how boring the world was before Instagram. Isn't that crazy? I mean, that is pretty sick. There must be a way to harness this energy, right? Like if you just put all these guys into like, like a hamster wheel.

[David]

This is the Most bullshit thing in the world. They're putting these little designs, these little statues, these little. What's the word I'm looking for?

[Mark Agnon]

Trinkets.

[David]

Trinkets on fleas. And it's not like it's coordinated. They're just struggling to move.

[Mark Agnon]

Look, what do you think a circus is? Hey, let's put a guy in a cannon and see what happens. You know what I mean? Like, that's. A circus is just doing the same thing to humans.

[David]

All right?

[Mark Agnon]

All I'm saying is there might be a better use for fleas. Such as bubonic plague bombs.

[David]

Exactly.

[Mark Agnon]

So they would literally put these fleas, thousands of them, into porcelain bombs, and then they would drop them over, you know, places in China. Typhoid and cholera were introduced into wells, marshes, and food supplies. In cities such as Nan King. Epidemics broke out shortly after these deliberate contaminations. Prisoners were exposed to anthrax, dysentery, and glanders. I don't even know what glanders is in controlled environments. And then the survivors were killed. I mean, it's just crazy. Like, I don't understand how Japan went from, like, so brutal to just being like. You know what I mean?

[David]

Like, I was trying to think about this because I was doing some research, and, like, the way Japanese people are now has to just be. They're like, they don't want to get out of line. They realize all the atrocities they did. So their. Their cultures, like, respect, hard work. Like, they're not stepping out of line.

[Mark Agnon]

I wonder if they feel bad about it. I wonder if they, like, look at this and, like. Yeah. Whoops. You know what I mean?

[David]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

Like, it's just insane. Like, America, we did a lot of bad stuff, and I feel like we carry a guilt around. But you never do it.

[David]

Yeah, I don't think so.

[Mark Agnon]

I feel a little guilty.

[David]

What did you do?

[Mark Agnon]

I don't know. I didn't do anything. I wasn't even part of this. I moved here, okay? I'm an immigrant. I came from France. I don't know anything about what's going on, but, I don't know. You got to wonder if you're. If you're the Japanese, if you feel like shit.

[David]

I don't think guilt is built into, like, the American culture.

[Mark Agnon]

Maybe it should be. I'm an ally. 1944, unit 731 shifted to infecting crops with fungal pathogens aimed at, you know, inducing famine rice blasts and wheat rust were tested on Chinese farms. Oh, I mean, this one's wild. Some of the Other stuff they were doing. Victims wore military uniforms or gas masks and then compared them to naked subjects to assess the protective gear efficacy of the uniforms.

[David]

That makes sense.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, I mean it's just like wild. Like I guess you would hope to be on the uniform side if you're a prisoner. They're like, hey, put this on. You'd be like, all right. It's better than the alternative. Prisoners are then forced to consume Lewisite solutions to study internal damage. Unit 731 tested non military toxins to expand Japan's chemical repertoire. Pufferfish venom was used. You ever heard of this pufferfish venom?

[David]

No.

[Mark Agnon]

This is like a type of venom that like, apparently pufferfish are like super toxic. If you like, people eat them, but if it's not prepared by like a hyper, hyper expert chef, then they can die. Apparently they're insanely venomous.

[David]

Are pufferfish venomous or is it like.

[Mark Agnon]

A certain, I guess poisonous would be a better term. Oh no, I think technically they are venomous because I think you can get stung by them. Like if they inflate like. Yeah, search this like, look up pufferfish venom. Apparently it's like super bad for you. They would be injected to study nerve paralysis and then they would also use ricin derived from castor beans that would induce organ failure. Pufferfish contain a neurotoxin called tetrodoxin. Tetrodotoxin. And it's lethal to humans and other animals, causing paralysis and potentially death. It's made from their the liver, ovaries and skin. And yeah, you have to prepare them. Super, super, super. Well, it's not destroyed by cooking. I mean, that's crazy. Like, why would you even risk it? Like, why do people still eat pufferfish?

[David]

I get it.

[Mark Agnon]

There's no way it can be that good that you would risk. Oh yeah. If it's not done exactly right, it's just death.

[David]

That's the ultimate delicacy.

[Mark Agnon]

I guess. I don't just eat a dolphin, right? Like there's no venom in dolphins. Right. Victims were then force fed or injected with these pathogens. And yeah, it was. Anyone that survived then would just be killed to then have an autopsy done. Oof, this one is tough. Hypobaric pressure experiments. Prisoners were placed in chambers that simulated extreme pressure changes. Victims then experienced ruptured eardrums, organ failure, and death as their body collapsed under the pressure. They were sealed inside these steel decompression chambers and exposed to altitudes of 20 to 30,000ft. Pressure was rapidly reduced. To mimic sudden aircraft cabin depressurization or high altitude bombings. So that's how they're. That's why they're doing this testing, I guess, is like, they're just thinking like, okay, what are things that we don't know?

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

What is the amount of pressure human being can endure?

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

So literally, like any type of, like, more. Just ask ChatGPT. Before ChatGPT, they would just have to do it. They would just go, get out there before AI. They'd be like, all right.

[David]

And the only time to do this is during time of war. Because then you can experiment on adversaries.

[Mark Agnon]

Because adversaries aren't human, you know, I mean, you just dehumanize a whole population, kidnap them, and then you're like, yeah, we can just do stuff on them. Because it is crazy. Like, we do these types of experiments, or at least we did on like, mice and stuff. And you still do that? Yeah, yeah, they're doing stuff to mice. Inject them with something, Give them a.

[David]

Plague, a line to coke.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, exactly. See what cocaine does to him.

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

I don't know.

[David]

Oh, fun time.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. Researchers sought to determine the maximum survivable altitude and time to death thresholds. So 30,000ft. Death occurred within eight to 12 minutes. Survivors of initial exposure were euthanized for autopsy. To assess internal damage. At a certain point, you got to be like, mk Ultra is not that bad compared to this. Yeah. I mean, what is MK Ultra? It's like, oh, we're going to take you and give you drugs and like, sure, that's not great to be given drugs against your will.

[David]

I don't know. I think how they were giving, like, people thousand hits of acid.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. Better than hyperbaric chamber. 30,000. 30,000 things.

[David]

I've taken one tab of acid and had a horrible time. Now imagine a thousand X that miserable.

[Mark Agnon]

I guess. Yeah. Maybe Acid plus a hyperbaric chamber is probably the way to go. Limbs are frozen solid. That's another thing. They did frostbite studies and yeah, they would just put people into, you know, like, freezing temperatures, negative 40 degrees Fahrenheit, submerged in ice water or left uncovered in open air freezing conditions. And then victims dip their water beforehand and they want to see what would freeze faster. Is it like, at a certain point, like, they gotta be looking at each other like, yo, are we just doing jackass? It's like almost jackass level. Like, let's just see what happens. I don't know. Try it out.

[David]

It's farting in a tube. In a Confined room.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. How many fars does it take to kill someone? You know, like, I. Like, I feel like they were not far off from doing that. So here's how it all ends. Basically, they're just doing the most brutal experiments you could ever imagine on actual human beings. And in 1945, Japan surrenders. Unit 731's leadership and members systematically evaded accountability through a combination of evidence destruction, US complicity, and strategic silence. I mean, this is the part that I find so morbid about history, is that all the worst people in history don't ever take accountability. Like, all of them. Like, none of them ever have to, like, face the music of their own crimes. It's insane. So, like, Soviet forces advanced through Manchuria, which is where they did a lot of these experiments. And Ishii is ordered. He orders the destruction of Unit 731's facilities. And the remaining prisoners are all killed, poisoned, or shot. All the documents and equipment are then incinerated. The one of the technicians there later testified to burning victims. And then scattering the bones in a river. Ishii fakes his own death in 1945 and then goes into hiding.

[David]

Hell yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

Crazy. Now the fun begins when American occupation forces learn that Ishii is still alive. They order the Japanese to hand him over. And investigators from Camp Dietrich began interrogations. First, Ishii denied any human testing had taken place. Bold. Bold. No, he. What?

[David]

Yeah, I mean, of course you're gonna deny.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, I guess. But, like, I wonder if he's trying to do it like a lawyer thing. Like, no, we didn't do any human testing.

[David]

They were subhuman.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, they were Chinese. Like, that's like the. Like, I'm sure they were trying to take, like, some legalese approach. And he says, no, no, no testing had taken place. What are you talking about? And he was aware that the Soviets also wanted to talk to him and that it's possible that their methods might not be so diplomatic. Right.

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

So what does he do? He later offers to reveal all the details of his program in exchange for immunity from war crimes. Like, he's basically like, look, I'll strike a deal with you. I'll give you everything we know. He's terrified of learning what's going to happen to him. He's thinking like, okay, I'm going to get killed either way. Might as well try to broker a deal with someone. So the Americans are anxious to learn the results of some of the experiments that they themselves have been unable to perform. Because human rights. The American Military accepts Ishii's offer and the approval was given by the highest levels of government. The arrangement brokered by Douglas MacArthur, justified as protecting the Cold War era national security interests, basically gives ishii immunity. From 1946 to 1948, ishii and senior officials from the unit 731 provided detailed reports of human experimentation, including the plague weaponization and the frostbite studies. These were classified and later used by the US Army Chemical Corps. Ishii lectured at the US Biological Warfare center in Maryland in 1948, sharing insights on aerosolized pathogens and live subject testing. So he literally gets a flight to Maryland and then starts. He's like an adjunct. He's just like, like coming in, like teaching class.

[David]

I'll be your substitute teacher this week.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, he rolls in a, like a video, rolls in a tv and everyone's like, how awesome. We're gonna watch a movie? Nope, it's just. Saw here is a bullet.

[Christos]

In a secret CIA facility, doctors administered mysterious substances to unwitting Americans. Their goal? Mind control. The year was 1973. And as agents frantically burned thousands of documents, Project MK Ultra's darkest secrets nearly vanished into smoke. Now step back to Friday the 13th, 1314. The Grand Master of history's most powerful military order kneels before the flames. As the fire rises, Jacques de Molay, last leader of the Knights Templar, utters a curse so chilling that when both the French King and Pope die within the year, whispers of dark prophecy spread across Europe. Now these aren't crazy conspiracy theories or something you read in, you know, some fan fiction. These are real historical events you'll discover in today. Today in History, the newsletter that uncovers the strange, shocking and sublime moments that shape our world. Get your daily dose of mind bending history. Scan the QR code or click the link below to join Today in History.

[Mark Agnon]

He, yeah, he avoids persecution. He lives under U.S. protection until his death in 1959, he continued unpublicized medical research and maintained his ties to Japan's post war scientific communities. One of the co founders of unit 731, this guy, Ryoshi Niyato, he established the Green Cross Company, a pharmaceutical firm. Later implicated in HIV tainted blood scandals during post World War II trials. He died in 1982 without legal consequences. But the director of 731's vaccine experiments, he probably for sure got persecuted. This guy, Masaji Kitano. Yeah, he probably, yeah, I think he gets killed, he gets executed.

[David]

What actually happened?

[Mark Agnon]

Oh no, he doesn't get executed. He becomes a president of Japan's National Institute of Health and then published papers on infectious diseases without ever disclosing his. His wartime crimes.

[David]

Oh, God.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. I mean, are we allowed to show that on YouTube? Oh, we're not allowed to show any of this. This is insane. Yeah, it's like. So, yeah, they have these frostbitten hands of Chinese people. They're taken out in the winter. How to best treat frostbite. It's interesting that America, I guess if you're going to war with the Soviets, you're like, all right, let's get some. Let's figure out how bad frostbite is. You know, let's figure out if there's a way to fix frostbite.

[David]

Hey, great. The results, they're pretty bad.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. Yeah. Not great. I mean, it's insane that they have pictures of this. Like, you would think that they'd be like, hey, let's not do.

[David]

Is that even a human being?

[Mark Agnon]

That's what they were asking. See, this is how it. This is how easy it is, dude. I'm telling you, the dehumanization of human beings is not that far off. But, yeah, no one was really. No one was really persecuted, it seems like, for their crimes. All right, here's another morbid detail for you. This guy, Nakagawa Yonezo, he's a professor at Osaka University, studied at Kyoto University during the war. And while he was there, he watched footage of some of the human experiments and executions from unit 731. He testified about the playfulness of the experimenters, which adds to, like, how morbid and detached these people are.

[David]

Or, like, had them having fun, literally.

[Mark Agnon]

His quote, some of the experimenters had. Some of the experiments had nothing to do with advancing the capability of germ warfare or medicine. There's such a thing as professional curiosity. What would happen if we did such and such. What medical purpose was served by performing and studying beheadings? None at all. That was just playing around. Professional people, too, like to play. His quote. I can see it at a certain point, right?

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

Like, you're so desensitized, you're just performing war crimes for five years. Like, nothing means anything, you know?

[David]

Yeah, you're just having coffee the morning of. And you're like, hey, I was spitballing. Like, what if we. What if we made him kiss?

[Mark Agnon]

That's the worst thing. They'd be like, whoa, we're not gonna do that. That's crossing a line.

[David]

I'll cut off my arm, please.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, well, we're gonna behead him. We're not gonna make him do gay stuff with the head? Yeah. Dude, I don't know. This is. This is pretty morbid. I'll be honest. I don't enjoy knowing about how brutal human beings can be. But once again, as history has shown us, the most evil people that commit the most evil things seems like they rarely ever have to answer for their crimes.

[David]

What's crazy is that this was less than 100 years ago.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, no, it was extremely recent. I wonder how many people died total. It seems like it's estimated that some of the biological warfare testing that was done killed an estimated 200,000 to 300,000 people. I'm assuming that's both.

[E]

The this episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free [e-mail] Spotify greenlight.com Spotify this episode is brought to you by Selectquote. Life insurance can have a huge impact on our family's future with Selectquote getting covered with the right policy for you is simple and affordable. Selectquote's licensed insurance agents will tailor your experience to find a life insurance policy for your needs in as little as 15 minutes. And selectquote partners with carriers that provide policies for many conditions. Selectquote they shop, you save. Go to selectquote.com Spotify Pod today to get started.

[Mark Agnon]

The actual executions and experiments that happened at unit 731, as well as the chemical warfare that came from that, like the porcelain bombs and stuff like that.

[David]

We should have dropped way more than two nukes on these people, right? Jesus Christ.

[Mark Agnon]

That's crazy.

[David]

I knew about like Nanking and I knew about like the imperialism of Japan, like taking over China, but I had no idea they were doing this shit.

[Mark Agnon]

What I'm curious about is, does it stop there? Like we get all this information, like do you think we just stopped medical weapons testing? Like, I'm sure there's. I'm sure there's versions of this that still go on today.

[David]

Yeah, but not on humans.

[Mark Agnon]

No, of course not, dude. That whole 2020 thing was just a. There's a real. That was a real thing that happened, bro. All right, I'm going Off the rails. Once I get my conspiracy beanie on, it just gets completely, completely inside.

[David]

What was Wuhan, the Wuhan lab testing on? Was it on rats?

[Mark Agnon]

I. I think so. Apparently bats as well, which is where, like, the whole bat thing came from, I think.

[David]

Do you think it was a. We know. Okay, so now we know it's a leak, right?

[Mark Agnon]

Allegedly.

[David]

No, we've everyone that's like, allegedly, bro. Are we gonna get, like, CDC info, like, tagged on this video now?

[Mark Agnon]

I mean, probably.

[David]

That's fine. We know it's a leak.

[Mark Agnon]

Seems like that way.

[David]

Okay.

[Mark Agnon]

That they're doing gain of function research on Covid in Wuhan, and then they have the military games that happen right after.

[David]

But was an intentional leak now, or was it an accident?

[Mark Agnon]

That I guess is up to what Twitter thread you're on and I'm on the wrong one. It depends on which one you're reading.

[David]

It was so stupid. You guys remember the first month of the pandemic? They're like, yeah, like, they were eating bats. And we're like, we're so racist.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. Everyone's like, they eat that shit over there.

[David]

Yeah. Sense.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David]

We bought those wet markets.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. These bats, they're not going to try to hurt us. There's no way they would do it on purpose there. It's more likely they were just munching on a freaking bat.

[David]

So stupid.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah.

[David]

I mean, racist. We are.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. It is truly American racism. Or, like. Yeah, that's crazy. Also, the other part that I always find interesting when it comes to, like, I don't know, America, like, kind of not being. I feel like we kind of turn a blind eye to a lot of stuff, despite all the atrocities that happened, like the syphilis experiments that happen in Tuskegee.

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

What are you about to say on the. On the Airmen, on the pilots, is that way.

[David]

Is that what we're testing it on? The Tuskegee Airmen.

[Mark Agnon]

That's how they.

[David]

That's why they were so big.

[Mark Agnon]

That's why they could fly. They ended up gaining flight ability, I think. I don't know. Were they in planes or were they actually flying? I think they were in planes, but yeah. So they were doing this in America recently.

[David]

How recently? It's 1970s.

[Mark Agnon]

In 1970, 31 or 1972 is when it concludes. But, yeah, they're doing syphilis research on American citizens. And then Americans are like, oh, they're not going to do that stuff again. They do it to those people. And you're like, oh, they were right. That's racist. Yeah, that's another feature of American racism.

[David]

Like.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, they're not going to do that to us. Yeah. Dude, 600 men, 400 of them get syphilis.

[David]

What does syphilis do to you?

[Mark Agnon]

I don't know.

[David]

It's an std, right?

[Mark Agnon]

I believe so. But untreated, I don't know what happens.

[David]

Oh, nice. Moral dilemma question. Syphilis is incredibly treatable now and it doesn't lead to death anymore.

[Mark Agnon]

That's what we were talking about on flagrant. It was like we were looking at this and it's like they eventually cured syphilis. And some people think partially because of the. Some of these experiments and that goes back to your.

[David]

Torture one person for the rest of their life or a million people get a speck of dust in their eye at the same time.

[Mark Agnon]

Exactly.

[David]

Actually it's completely not that.

[Mark Agnon]

But it is a trolley problem in a way. It's like the greater good. I just don't think the ends justify the means almost ever. I'm not a utilitarian at all. I mean it looks like. Yeah, you get damp, brain damage, other organ failure, blindness, paralysis, dementia, even death.

[David]

This is from an std?

[Mark Agnon]

Yes. Sds are bad for you.

[David]

Yeah, but I think I thought STDs just. Only if I guess they affect your immune system.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. What would you rather?

[David]

Let's do it.

[Mark Agnon]

Hook up with a girl?

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

Get her pregnant. Some random girl you don't know and then deal with the consequences that she's gonna have the baby. You gotta.

[David]

She hut.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah.

[David]

Does she come for money?

[Mark Agnon]

You don't really know.

[David]

Does she make money?

[Mark Agnon]

She's like a regular job.

[David]

Like what?

[Mark Agnon]

She works in like, like a fintech startup.

[David]

Oh, okay, that's fine.

[Mark Agnon]

Or you get herpes. Treatable.

[David]

Mouth or genital?

[Mark Agnon]

Genital. You're not gonna die from it. But you do have herpes.

[David]

Do I get herpes from her?

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah.

[David]

And she has herpes.

[Mark Agnon]

She has herpes now you have herpes. So would you rather get a girl pregnant, knock her up and she has a baby and then you gotta like pay child support, be the dad of the stuff.

[David]

Why can't I be involved in her life? Why can't we get married?

[Mark Agnon]

You want to marry a girl with herpes? No, no, no, no. If, if you had to choose, you could marry her. But then who knows if that's gonna work out?

[David]

Well, given my recent relationship spats, it's worth a try. I'd rather get the girl pregnant.

[Mark Agnon]

Isn't that crazy? You'd Rather, like, be like, all right, I'm gonna raise another human life for the rest of my life.

[David]

Yeah. But, like, yeah, it's a burden, but it's also the greatest love you'll ever feel in your life as you can relate to.

[Mark Agnon]

Mm. Or you have herpes.

[David]

Yeah. Would you rather pass on your last name for the rest of eternity and be filled with the best feeling ever? And, you know, hopefully you love this woman and you can raise a good life with each other. There's, like, the possibility of that.

[Mark Agnon]

What if she doesn't want to be with you? She goes, you know what? I don't think we're gonna work. I'm gonna raise the kid on my own. You can, you know, sue for legal custody and see him on the weekends. But now you're, like, a deadbeat dad. You can't even see your own kid.

[David]

Yeah, I'm not a deadbeat dad if I'm the one. If I'm being prohibited from seeing them, sure.

[Mark Agnon]

But now you have this kid that you love, you can't go see, and.

[David]

I still have to pay, like, alimony.

[Mark Agnon]

How's that work? Child support.

[David]

Oh, wow. Now, this is interesting, because child support's rather expensive. I'm detached from my child. Hopefully a son.

[Mark Agnon]

Yep.

[David]

I don't know. But then you have to have that conversation every time you get with a woman there. It's like, hey, before this gets any further, I have herpes.

[Mark Agnon]

Yes.

[David]

God, that's got to be.

[Mark Agnon]

But I feel like after enough times of telling women, you might have, like, a fun bit.

[David]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

You know, I mean, like, you'd be.

[David]

Like, you have a script, you know, the timing.

[Mark Agnon]

Exactly. You. You know how to, like, lay it out to where they're like, ah, who cares? You know?

[David]

Yeah, you should go up to them.

[Mark Agnon]

And be like, have a gun. Have a weapon in their face.

[David]

Yeah, no, I would. Oh, God, not so. I'd rather have the kid.

[Mark Agnon]

I want kind of off topic. You think this is off topic?

[David]

Christos, this is on topic. Let me just turn this into a Boys up.

[Mark Agnon]

This is so on topic, dude. Anyway, yeah, that's one of the most evil doctors of all time, Shiro Ishii, who then just faced no consequences in.

[David]

Life and got a teaching cake.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. And then starts, you know, takes over as the. The nuttiest professor of all time. I wonder what. How he dies. I'd be curious to know, like, what his actual. His death was. Let's see if God punished him in his last years, Ishii could not speak clearly he was uncomfortable and on pain medication, speaking in a harsh voice. 1959, he dies of laryngitis. Cancer, laryngeal cancer, at the age of 67 in Tokyo. His funeral was chaired by the second in command, this guy, Massage Kitano. According to his daughter, Ishii became a Roman Catholic before his death.

[David]

Not great for the brain.

[Mark Agnon]

I mean, not ideal, for sure. His daughter recalled an interview shortly before his death that his medical condition worsened. So it seems like God got his get back, right?

[David]

Like, by recruiting another soldier to his religion.

[Mark Agnon]

Yo, that is crazy. That. Unfortunately, because of, you know, Christ's sacrifice, it's possible that Shir Ishi will be in heaven. Right? Like, that's a little, like, if I get to heaven and I see him, I'm gonna. I'm gonna unfortunately have to dap him up, but I'm not gonna be happy about it.

[David]

No, you're gonna dap him up and be like, can we record next Tuesday? This will be great for the channel.

[Mark Agnon]

This could be good. A good podcast. Do you think podcasts exist in heaven? I think that's hell. Yeah. I think I'm describing hell. Yeah. Yeah, dude. I mean, that's kind of crazy. His daughter says in an interview that it's all over now. It was one of the last things that he said to her, writing the message because he could no longer speak. Shortly before his death, he asked to be baptized by Dr. Herman Hoovers, former president to Sofia University in Tokyo.

[David]

That is the one loophole in Catholicism that I do not like, which is you can live the shittiest possible life committing atrocities to people, and then right before you're dead and you're like, hey, give me some of that holy water. Baptize me. I love God. I'm sorry for all I've done. Boom.

[Mark Agnon]

Well, here's what's great about Catholicism is that technically, you go to purgatory.

[David]

Yeah. It's still not hell.

[Mark Agnon]

Sure. But you got to go to purgatory for a while, and you got to deal with what you did.

[David]

So that's my. That was my biggest fear in middle school. Purgatory is like, how. Like, what if I'm in purgatory for just the longest time and the paper sucks and. Yeah, they don't have a tv.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah, true. There's no sports.

[David]

I just envisioned it, like, as, like a white room, which. And I'm just sitting in a chair, tapping my foot.

[Mark Agnon]

No, I think purgatory is probably torture. I think probably you get. You get vivisected and then given the anthrax. And then. And then after that, you go to heaven and you get up there and you're like, that sucked. You know?

[David]

Yeah, that doesn't sound great.

[Mark Agnon]

Not great. I mean, let me say evangelical heaven. There is no purgatory, so they. All those people go straight to heaven. Just skip. But yeah, one of the most evil doctors of all time. Any final thoughts on this terrible person?

[David]

Not really. I mean, I get the. The purpose of doing this all. Or like, I select the timing of it. It's like, all right, we're in war. We have all these prisoners. Now we can actually do, like, the UP studies that we've always wanted to do. But it does bring up an interesting moral dilemma where it's like the Tuskegee thing. For. For example, we now have a cure for syphilis. So, yeah, we treated these small. A small section of humans poorly in their lives. But how many people in the entirety of human history in the future did we save? I'm not trying to, like, justify it, but, like, it's an interesting world. Question.

[Mark Agnon]

John 3. 16.

[David]

What's that?

[Mark Agnon]

God so loved the world, he gave his one and only son to save all humanity.

[David]

Okay, what does that have to do with it?

[Mark Agnon]

Seems like you kill one guy to save everybody, might be worth it.

[David]

Catholicism made sense for a man.

[Mark Agnon]

I guess what I will say to conclude is that if you are an evil doctor and you're going to perform, you know, terrible atrocities, make them really, really bad, make them super evil.

[David]

If you're gonna do a cheat meal, fucking make sure it's a double decker.

[Mark Agnon]

Ice cream if you're gonna do. Because if you're a doctor and you do some evil stuff, you're probably gonna go to prison. There's many doctors that have done bad things that have gone to prison, right?

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

But if you're able to do the most evil thing you could ever do, run an entire torture chamber and just massacre 200,000 people, then you can get off.

[David]

It's like when a prisoner is in there for life, he's like, well, I might as well try to shank a CEO. I'm already here. Yeah, I'm already screwed.

[Mark Agnon]

No, it's more like if you can go the most evil possible, then all of a sudden your evilness can become data, and then you can broker a deal. You know, like, if you kill one person, that's like, oh, you got to go to prison. If you kill 200,000, then it's like, all right, let's learn something.

[David]

One tragedy or no. 1 death is a tragedy.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah.

[David]

A million is a statistic type shit.

[Mark Agnon]

So, you know some statistics.

[David]

And what's the most powerful currency in today's world? Data.

[Mark Agnon]

Big data. You could sell this to Meta. I'm just saying, I'm not condoning this, but if you are going to be an evil doctor, there's a way to get out of it, and that's just to write everything down, take some pictures, put it on Wikipedia, and then. Yeah, just live out your life in Tokyo. Yeah.

[David]

That's interesting.

[Mark Agnon]

That's crazy.

[David]

This guy, Maryland.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. And. Yeah. You go to Maryland.

[David]

Have you ever had crab cakes this time of the year?

[Mark Agnon]

Isn't that crazy? He went to Maryland, was given protection, and then was like, I'm still going back to Japan.

[David]

Do you think he went to McGuvies?

[Mark Agnon]

He probably popped into a couple comedy clubs while he was there. And it's like, it's. He died in what, 59?

[David]

Yeah.

[Mark Agnon]

Like what? He. He had access to movies. Like he. He watched Citizen Kane. You know what I mean? Like, that's crazy. This guy ran an entire execution chamber and then just got to chill. He was planning to kill Americans and America was like, nah, we can just give him protection.

[David]

Orson Welles.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah.

[David]

Big director.

[Mark Agnon]

He loved Orson Welles. Yeah. Like, that's insane. When did Hitchcock. Hitchcock was making movies at this point, right?

[David]

Oh, yeah, when it's. What's the movie? Not Scream Birds. No, the.

[Mark Agnon]

Oh, Psycho.

[David]

Yeah. Psycho.

[Mark Agnon]

Yeah. When did psycho come out?

[David]

58.

[Mark Agnon]

Wow.

[David]

1960. Damn.

[Mark Agnon]

Oh, he just missed it.

[David]

Oh, what's this guy's name again?

[Mark Agnon]

Hiroshi.

[David]

RIP Hiroshi. You would have loved Psycho.

[Mark Agnon]

All right, let's. Thank you guys so much for tuning into another episode of Camp. I hope you appreciate diving into the, you know, darkest corners of the Internet. But we'll be back next week with more interesting, fascinating information. Christos, David, thank you for joining me. Of course. See you next time. So long. If you've made it to the end.

[Christos]

Of this episode, that's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you. You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest, true communication. A highbrow type of person that understands this history is not just dates and names. It is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy. From the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revere took his midnight ride from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for Today in History. Our free newsletter. Today in History brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything, and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History because history's stories shape tomorrow's world.

[Mark Agnon]

Thank you for watching the episode. We'll see you next time.