Why Humans and Dogs Evolved Together

Summary

Camp Gagnon – "Why Humans and Dogs Evolved Together"

Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: David Ian Howe (Anthropologist, Ethno-cynologist)
Date: October 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Camp Gagnon delves into the ancient, mutualistic relationship between humans and dogs with guest David Ian Howe, an anthropologist specializing in the intertwined histories of humans and canines ("ethno-cynology"). The discussion covers how hunter-gatherers and wolves first formed alliances, how this shaped human evolution, the spread and breeding of dogs worldwide, the emergence of breeds and dog mythology, and the enduring quirks and behaviors dogs share with actual wolves. Mark and David blend deep academic insight, humor, and cultural context, making this a must-listen (or read!) for anyone fascinated by humanity’s oldest animal companion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Human-Dog Relationship (06:59–12:37)

• Genetic & Archaeological Roots:
  • The relationship likely started in Siberia approximately 20,000 years ago, where humans and wolves overlapped (08:47).
  • As humans left Africa and entered colder, harsher northern environments, both species—highly social, apex predators—adapted to coexist. Wolves learned to scavenge at human camps for survival, favoring less aggressive, more social individuals (06:59, 07:57).
• Mutual Behavioral Ecology:
  • Wolves adapted their behavior because scavenging required less caloric output ("bang for their buck") than autonomous hunting (07:57).
  • Humans benefitted from the wolves' senses and defense, which eventually took on a cooperative, sometimes even symbiotic nature.

"Rather than hunting and taking out a bison... [wolves] are going in and just scavenging bones. That would have been the natural selective process."
— David Ian Howe (07:57)

2. How Wolves Became Dogs: Social and Evolutionary Factors (09:57–12:37)

• Why Wolves?
  • Wolves and humans are both highly social and capable of complex communications, making the alliance "inevitable" compared to less social scavengers (09:57–10:59).
• Parallel Behaviors:
  • Wolves had kinship structures, monogamous pairings, and pack hierarchies reminiscent of human tribes, facilitating mutual trust.
• Timeline:
  • Earliest trusted dog ancestors: ~20,000 years ago (11:41), but contact probably started as soon as humans left Africa (~100,000-200,000 years ago).

"It's kind of an inevitable coalition... they're both just so social."
— David Ian Howe (10:01)

3. Impact on Human Evolution and Society (20:14–24:17)

• Strategic Survival Advantages:
  • Dogs (formerly wolves) provided humans with advanced defense—sentries against predators (especially cats and bears)—making camps more secure and allowing for deeper, uninterrupted sleep (21:50).
  • This deeper sleep, trust in "watchdogs," possibly gave humans a cognitive and innovative edge by increasing leisure and safety (22:01–23:02).
• Trade and Spread:
  • As humans transitioned to agriculture, dogs spread globally, being bred, traded, and selected for various desirable traits (24:21–25:09).

"Once you know you have wolves... you now have an animal that can see, or we see better, but they can smell better, hear better, all that. You don't have to exactly stay in a cave to worry about bears and lions..."
— David Ian Howe (21:13)

4. Dog Breeding and Cultural Roles (24:21–27:58; 56:40–64:31)

• Early Dog Breeders & Specialization:
  • Once agriculture and complex societies arose (e.g., Egypt, Mesopotamia), dog breeding became specialized, including for speed (e.g., salukis, greyhounds), obedience, and herding. Dog racing and gambling is attested archaeologically and in ancient texts (25:14–26:49).
• Domestication Syndrome:
  • Breed diversity and 'cuteness' (floppy ears, big eyes, neoteny) are both selected for and a byproduct of domestication (27:09–29:23).
  • Dogs' expressive features, like "puppy dog eyes," are consequences of neoteny, which also triggers caregiving in humans.

"As you breed [animals] down to a domestic animal, they're losing those robust... aggression-looking traits, like the big horns, all that stuff. And they're bred down to like a petting zoo goat... Dogs, if you think of a pug, it's just a human face."
— David Ian Howe (27:21)

• Victorian Era Breed Boom:
  • Most of today's dog breeds and the idea of dogs as mere companions (not workers) is actually quite recent, largely emerging in England and France during the Victorian era (63:17–64:31).

5. Dogs in Mythology and Symbolism (36:31–38:36; 66:10–70:28)

• Spiritual Roles:
  • Dogs were linked with death, afterlife guides (Anubis in Egypt, Xolotl in Aztec myth), and psychopomps, reflecting early human experiences with dogs scavenging around burial sites (36:31–37:51).
• Cultural Spread:
  • The dog-as-afterlife guide myth independently emerged in cultures that had no direct contact (Aztecs/Egyptians), likely due to similarities in the human-dog experience.

"Dogs always kind of serve as, like, a spirit guide where they appear when you die and they help you meet the other gods..."
— David Ian Howe (36:32)

6. Global Dispersal and Outcomes (39:05–44:41)

• Dog Migration:
  • Dogs reached almost every human society except (initially) tropical South America and Australia; dingoes arrived ~10k years ago, probably via land bridges or seafaring (39:06–40:14).
• Dogs Outcompeting Native Species:
  • Arrival of dogs led to the decline of native predators like the Tasmanian tiger.

7. Dogs as Tools and Allies (49:54–53:06)

• Dogs Used in Hunting/Battle:
  • Early use as “drones” in flushing out animals like cave bears or hyenas; their scenting ability is seen as "original AI” (50:00–50:04).
• Military/Status Use:
  • Wolves and dogs as totems or adornments of warriors (Roman centurions, Vikings, even Mongols believed humans ultimately descended from wolves) (66:10–68:18).
• Cultural Animosities & Mythic Wolves:
  • In agrarian societies, wolves are villainized as livestock thieves; stories of werewolves and black dog omens emerge out of this tension (69:12–69:55).

8. Modern Dog Behaviors with Ancient Roots (84:17–90:12)

• Quirks and Instincts:
  • Circling before sleep: Possibly for magnetic field alignment, or flattening grass (86:47–87:19).
  • Aggression/bite reflex: Many breeds still retain wolfish instincts; humans must respect dogs as animals, despite domestication.
• Breed Selection and "Nature vs Nurture":
  • Aggression or calmness can be selected for, both by breeders and by context/environment (93:00–95:46).

9. Feeding and Health: Kibble vs. Natural Diet (103:13–106:25)

• Dog Food:
  • Kibble is seen as analogous to humans eating only bread—unprecedented in natural history and likely depressing/unhealthy for dogs.

"You're just condensing slop down into baked kibble form. That's just not what they're supposed to be eating."
— David Ian Howe (103:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Parallel Social Structures:
  “It's kind of an inevitable coalition... they're both just so social.” — David Ian Howe (10:01)
• On Domestication:
  "Fire, there's stone tools first, then we had fire, then there's dogs, and then agriculture." — David Ian Howe (05:10)
• On Geological Mysteries:
  "Wombat shit cubes." — David Ian Howe (42:00)
  "That looks delicious." — Mark Gagnon, viewing wombat scat (42:15)
• On Breed Creation:
  “Evolution's not Pokémon. We have this idea that it just happens overnight and you have, like, another creature the next day. It doesn't happen like that.” — David Ian Howe (57:12)

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Memorable Deep Dives and Fun Tangents

• Wolf Pelts for Hunting:
  Indigenous people donned wolf pelts to “hack” bison defenses based on prey-predator recognition patterns (30:44–32:42).
• Dire Wolves & De-Extinction:
  The “resurrected” dire wolf in the news is more a gray wolf with accentuated ancient traits; a dazzling PR campaign meets the public’s fascination with de-extinction (71:01–79:36).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Origins of Human/Wolf Relationship: 06:59–12:37
• Breeds, Specialization, and Domestication: 24:21–29:23, 56:40–64:31
• Mythology and Cultural Symbolism: 36:31–38:36, 66:10–70:28
• Dogs as Sentinels/Impact on Human Development: 20:14–24:17
• Modern Dog Behaviors Explained: 84:17–90:12
• De-Extinction & Dire Wolves: 71:01–79:36
• Dog Food & Health: 103:13–106:25

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Episode Takeaways

• The human-dog alliance is ancient, rooted in the unique social compatibility of both species, and fundamentally shaped both ecological and cultural evolution.
• Dogs facilitated human expansion (defense, hunting, trade, sleep security).
• Breeds and the concept of dogs as “just pets” are a modern luxury, a dramatic shift from their initial, all-purpose role.
• Much of what we see in today’s dogs—quirks, intelligence, even food habits—are deeply tied to their wild ancestry, but have evolved alongside our needs and desires.
• Dogs occupy an uncommonly mythic place in virtually all cultures with which they entwined—a testament to both their utility and our affection.

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Where to Find More

• Guest: [@ethno_cynology on Instagram, David Ian Howe on YouTube]
• Host: [@markgagnon on Instagram]

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Camp Gagnon delivers yet another rich, entertaining, and informative episode—mixing ancient history, genetics, culture, and comedy to address why we can't stop loving (and sometimes baby-talking) our canine companions.

Transcript

[David Ian Howe]

Especially in, like, Mesopotamia. They're gambling a lot. They were betting. They probably had dogs that were fast and doing all that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, you think they're doing dog racing?

[David Ian Howe]

And we know that in Egypt for sure, and in the Middle east they were. The saluki itself is just a fast. Greyhounds were bred for hare hunting, really? But that for sure turned into like a bunch of Chinese guys gambling in a basement.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No way.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

This is David Ian Howe, an anthropologist who studies ancient human beings and their dogs. Now, you probably heard dogs are a man's best friend, but have you ever wondered how this symbiotic relationship starts? Guarded two species, both apex predators, who had to slowly learn to trust each other. They've helped us hunt, guarded our camps, herded our livestock, and have even been a part of our mythology. But how did this bond form? Why did wolves choose us? And why did we choose them? So if you love your dog, all dogs, or interested in how years of evolution have made you biologically drawn to your very pooch, we'll sit back, relax, and welcome to camp.

[David Ian Howe]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's text. 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Learn [e-mail] David Ian Howe. How are you?

[David Ian Howe]

Good, man. How about you?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I'm excellent. Thank you so much for joining me. I know you're kind of from this neck of the woods.

[David Ian Howe]

You were just regaling me out on the island.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, out on the island.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's the thing New Yorkers always say that kind of bugs me.

[David Ian Howe]

Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Say on the island.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, you're like on the subway, on, you know, on the. All the. On the beam, I guess. But you're on the island online.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's another thing New Yorkers say. Like, like if you're gonna, you know, you're in Starbucks and there's a bunch of people waiting to order coffee. Yeah. Everyone else in the world says, oh, stand in line, but New Yorker say stand online.

[David Ian Howe]

That one I haven't even noticed. That's a good point.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You say online, right?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I mean, America online, I guess, but no. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Gabe, do you say online or inline? He doesn't speak English, so. It's fine, it's fine. Okay. Regardless. Out on the island. And now you're here in the campsite, in my beautiful tent out deep in the Adirondacks.

[David Ian Howe]

It's cozy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Not in Brooklyn. We're far, far away. Somewhere upstate, maybe. Maybe in Pennsylvania. Maybe we're in the Poconos.

[David Ian Howe]

Maybe.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Maybe we're in Woodstock. Who even knows? All right, but at the end of the day, you are here for one reason, one reason only. Because today we're talking about two of my favorite topics in the entire world. And you were also introduced to me by one of my favorite people in the whole world.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Our good friend Donnie Dust.

[David Ian Howe]

He's the man.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And during our conversation, I was just kind of BSing about dog stuff, and he was like, you should talk to a dog expert. And I was like, well, that's not a thing. He was like, no, no. There is a guy that I know that I flint knap with, and his name is David Ian Howe, and he's a wonderful. There's a word for it. Remind me again.

[David Ian Howe]

Ethno sinologist.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And what is an ethno sinologist?

[David Ian Howe]

It is the study of dogs and people in human cultural contexts.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Basically, dog history. You're a dog anthropologist. And that's my. Again, two of my favorite things, history and dogs. So can you just explain to the people kind of your background and your research what you like to lecture on? And then basically, we're just going to start from the very beginning. Tell me the history of the dog man relationship.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, man. So I got really into history as a kid, went to school for that. Realized you can't really, you know, get a. A job with that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So you're like, let's get more specific.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, yeah. Let me get very much more niche. And then I took an anthropology class where we watched Chappelle's show, actually, and she was telling us, like, she put the blind white supremacist on.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

And it was kind of like, why is this funny? You know the one where he's like the. The blind white supremacist.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Absolutely.

[David Ian Howe]

And it, you know, it's about race and all that and stuff, and, like, the cultural aspect of racism. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. But we also talked about stone tools. Monkeys, primates, apes. So I got really into, you know, history, archeology, and then I took a bunch of anthropology classes, which got me to stone tools. And then in one of those classes, they talked about dogs and people being, you know, this basically relationship that's been around forever. And I kind of was like, when did that start? Like, go back. Like, stop. I want to Learn more about that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

This mutualistic evolution.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. And then like most paintings of the Ice Age and things like that are like artistic renderings. You always see a dog, which might not be completely accurate because it's an artistic rendering, but I still was like, well, where did these dogs come from? Yeah. And then I looked more into that and I went to grad school for hunter gatherer anthropology. This was out in Wyoming. It's like one of the best schools for it. And just did all of my research on dogs and like, how do I, you know, how do I learn more about this and. Yeah, so stone tools. I can make stone tools. Did all that hunter gatherer stuff. And it just goes hand in hand with how humans operate zoologically on a landscape is how dogs came to be.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

If that makes sense, like as a tool almost.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So like in. I always say this too, like fire, there's stone tools first, then we had fire, then there's dogs, and then agriculture. So it's like way before that, too. Wow.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. I mean, that makes sense, right? It would be like pre agrarian, like hunter gatherer still.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And then on this level of like human development, dogs are up there. In terms of what brought us to actually becoming like the Homo sapiens we are today, is that a fair estimate?

[David Ian Howe]

I don't think we've had enough time to like, fully co. Evolve with them in that sense. Like, we didn't. It didn't affect our evolution that much, but our social evolution, for sure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Okay.

[David Ian Howe]

Because anywhere where there's agriculture or there's other domestic animals, there's always dogs first. Because dogs can help you herd goats, they can help you herd cattle and all that to become, you know, domestic livestock.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

But in terms of like adjusting our brains, not so much, but adjusting a dog's brain. Absolutely.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So take me back to the beginning. Let's paint a picture, because I think, I mean, at least this is the story I've heard, right? Is like, you got hunter gatherers. They're kind of like nomadic bands of people, maybe like, you know, a couple dozen. And they're kind of living out in like, you know, the woods somewhere, maybe a jungle somewhere. And all of a sudden, like, these wolves kind of come around, right? And they see these wolves and they're like, oh, we got to be careful, these wolves, because these wolves are going to try to eat us. We've been battling wolves for a while, and then slowly they kind of start throwing food to the wolves. Or like, the wolves would come around and like scrap food from wherever they used to be. And they'd kind of follow them around and the wolves would be there and the humans would be there. And then over time they create this sort of mutualistic relationship or like the wolves kind of offer protection and the humans are giving them food. And then they kind of both slowly domesticate, mostly the, the wolves are slowly domesticating into being, you know, the animals that we know today. Yeah. So that's, I think probably the most reduced version of it. How pretty on the ball. So what else is there to that story that paints the picture from how we go from, you know, Homo sapiens running around with, you know, sticks and spears to actually living with dogs as hunter gatherers?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So I mean, the main thing is humans are obviously primates, bipedal primates. We evolved in Africa, we eventually leave Africa at some point. It's debated how many times or how often. But once we get out of Africa and you're living in more cold or temperate and then colder and then kind of arctic environments, especially in Siberia, we're running into wolves quite a bit. And wolves get into this kind of predicament where it's. You got to adapt to this invasive, fire wielding, you know, primate that's here, that's also an apex predator, very good at using the landscape and surviving. And they have to kind of adapt to that or, you know, die out in a sense. I don't know if it was that dire, but, you know, it, something like that. That's how evolution works. And then after a certain amount of time, it's just dogs or wolves, excuse me, are learning. Okay. Rather than die out or like move territories, we can just start scavenging human camps. And it's either humans are throwing bones or, you know, maybe they're adopting the pups or something like that. But at some point, the natural selection of wolves was like, we need to adapt to these primates that are here. And kind of you can reduce all anthropology and zoology down to what's called behavioral ecology, which is the basically all humans or animals have to operate for the most bang for their buck. So you want to exert the least amount of calories for the most gain. And for wolves, it would have been easy enough. Rather than hunting and taking out a bison, maybe getting kicked in the ribs or the face or a caribou, really, you're then going in and just scavenging bones. And that would have been the natural selective process of that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And this was Siberia is where people estimate the first like wolf human sort of mutual contact was happening.

[David Ian Howe]

Yes, Siberia is the Genetically and archeologically seems to be the case.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Could have been other places. But it seems like that because all.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

My black friends are always like, dude, the way that white people act with their dogs is just, you guys let them kiss you on the mouth, they sleep in the bed. You guys are crazy. But it might be an anthropological record that dogs are kind of white people. Shit. From the get go. It's just these Siberians that have to live with these wolves and then slowly we just kind of become friends with them.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I mean, it would have been like Asian looking people up there for sure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, so it is Asians.

[David Ian Howe]

Being weird with the dogs first, kissing them on the mouth and stuff.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Making out with dogs. Dog rip.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. But I would like to see an anthropological study on why white people are so weird with dogs. I have black friends have also brought that up to me.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, I don't know if science can answer that. That might be a spiritual question, you know, I mean, that might go deeper than anything, you know.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So I'm curious though, why wolves? Because I'm sure other animals got this idea like, oh, there's this apex predator that's running around with. Yeah. They're leaving around all this debris of like, you know, animal residue and scraps. Like, why wouldn't, you know, like, like some other type of, you know, creature, like a raccoon or something, walk around and be like, oh, we can, we can use this. Like, why was it wolves that selected? Is there any answer for that?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I mean, primates ourselves are just highly complex social animals. That's how we are. Human adaptation is culture. So the ability to pass on knowledge to the next generation, that's not, you know, in your DNA. Wolves aren't primates by any means. They're carnivorans. But they are also, like, among the many, like apex predators and social animals, they're like among the most social. So it would have been that humans in those areas would have, you know, noticed wolves. They're monogamous in a sense. They have kinship structures that are similar to humans. It's kind of an inevitable coalition, I guess, because they're both just so social. And the way that humans and dogs obviously now can just interact with each other and we can talk to each other, in a sense that would have happened way in the past.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, that's fascinating. So humans and dogs have similar sort of like cultural behavioral patterns that developed in parallel. So they didn't develop together from the get go, but like, wolves were monogamous and pro social even before contacting humans.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So it would have been like the, the ability to socialize with each other. So the, the tail wagging, the throwing, you know, meat to each other, I would say that's the main thing. The way that like, you know, the way you talk to a dog now is just feeding treats. And that's how you essentially communicate, how you train them.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

You withhold food if you know, for certain reasons or you give them more food to would be the word, you know, praise them or whatever.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

Throwing wolves bones back in the day would have. People would have figured out, okay, they leave us alone if we do that. And the ones that are aggressive would probably go away.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And so now the timeline that we're talking here, like this Siberian period of kind of like these hunter gatherers interacting with wolves, how far back does that go?

[David Ian Howe]

About 20,000 years is genetically when we see dogs kind of arise. Like if you were to boiled a DNA down and see when dogs come about, it's about 20,000 years. But in my mind it's probably like long before that. The interaction of human. As soon as we left Africa, really the interaction between humans and wolves is like forming that bond that domestication is starting. Wow.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, that's interesting. So I mean, what is the general agreed upon consensus for like leaving Africa? Is that like 100,000, 75,000 years ago?

[David Ian Howe]

Off the top of my head, I can't exactly remember. It's like 200 to 100,000 years. That paleoanthropology changes quite often all the time.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But we're looking at a long window. I mean if dogs are coming on the Horizon, bound like 20,000 years ago, there's a potentially another 20,000 at least years of human beings kind of seeing these wolves and them slowly getting domesticated over time, like that's a pretty long span.

[David Ian Howe]

I would agree.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

So like Homo erectus leaves Africa I think about a million years ago. Ish. And then modern humans come out later. But either way there's hominids that are stone, tool and fire using creatures that are in these wolf biomes that are now, you know, the wolves are going to have to adapt to.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's a good point. Right. Like there's other like non human bipedal apes that are interacting with wolves in some capacity, like Neanderthals or whatever else. They're having some type of, you know, relationship. Yeah, that's interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

And there's a theory too that like Neanderthals might have gone to extinction because humans and wolves moving into Europe and Eurasia, where those you know, Neanderthals and Denisovans lived are out competing those, you know, former hominids because they have a better ability to adapt to the environment. No way. Yeah. I don't know how much of it is completely true, but.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Sure, but that theory exists. Yeah, that's fascinating. That that was a competitive advantage against other. What would you call that? Like, like hominids?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, other, you know, extinct hominids. Neanderthals, Denisovans.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, that's fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Do we think that any other hominids had relationships with wolves the way that Homo sapiens did? Like, did Neanderthals? Like, is there any research or any. I mean, the. I'm sure the archaeological record is probably so sparse, but is there anything like that?

[David Ian Howe]

None. That's like concrete evidence. There's like wolf footprints in a few caves. I think there's tons of hanging up footprints too. But in terms of, like, wolves and Neanderthals interacting, I don't think there's any current concrete evidence of that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, dude, if I was a dog and my master was a Neanderthal.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Like, what would you do?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I would be so pissed. I'd be like, dude, I got the best master in the world. And you see like a Homo sapien with a dog and he's sitting on the couch and you're like, damn it. Yeah, I got the wrong one.

[David Ian Howe]

They got the better food.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, I know. You'd be like, so pissed. You're like, I backed the wrong horse here. Yeah, exactly. So that makes a lot of sense. So you have this timeline where it's like, okay, basically we leave Africa, get in relationship with wolves, and then around 20,000 years ago, they start to become what we know as a dog, more or less.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And what exactly is happening in that window where now they're like, cohabitating? Like, what is like the early period of human beings cohabitating with dogs?

[David Ian Howe]

Probably a lot of hunting together. And if not hunting, where we're like, actually, you know, whistling and telling them what to do and stuff like that, they would have just been following humans around. Almost akin to how raccoons are today. It's kind of like a good example of domestication because they're getting better at coming to human environments. They'll come to our trash cans and stuff. Like, I don't think there's raccoons in New York, but giant rats.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, we got rats. Basically, raccoons.

[David Ian Howe]

They use their hands to eat pizza.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

But at that point, it would have been like dogs interacting way more with Human camps and things like that. And then while we're hunting either, and Donnie's kind of posed this to like, we kill something, like a caribou, for example. And you know, you stab it, it's bleeding, and you got to chase it for a bit. Wolves might beat you to the carcass kind of thing. Or we were just shooing, you know, wolves away from an animal carcass. And then you're, you're interacting. Throw them a bone, they'll leave you alone.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Wow.

[David Ian Howe]

Kind of thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you a story. Imagine you're sitting in your house. It's cold outside. It's. It's a little snowy. And you're like, man, I just want a panini. So you go and you order it, you know, from a, from doordash or something like that. And it never gets to you. You're looking at the app, you're like, dude, it's been four hours. Where's my panini? You're calling? No one answers. Well, this is a true story that happened. There was a woman, a client that was working as a doordash driver, and she slipped and fell on an icy walkway outside of a Panera Bread in Fort Wayne, Indiana. She breaks her elbow, which leads to surgery and hardware having to get inserted into her arm. She can't work. And originally, you know, she sues Panera, and Panera's like, okay, we'll give you like 125,000. But then the good people over at Morgan and Morgan fought for her and got her the million dollar verdict that she deserved.

[David Ian Howe]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

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[David Ian Howe]

Okay?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So to skip your morning cold brew and instead get that hard brew for an entire month. Yes, that [e-mail] Use the promo code Gagnon and start laying it down like they deserve. Let's get back to the show and Doug.

[David Ian Howe]

Here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their insurance and save hundreds. With Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

[David Ian Howe]

Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Excludes Massachusetts. Now, I've heard the theory floated that, like, animals, specifically dogs, helped human beings evolve in certain capacities. And there's probably some, like, very direct ways, but there might be some, like, subliminal ways. And I can. I've heard, like, different theories of, you know, different ones. So I'm curious. In what ways did cohabitating with wolves and dogs by proxy actually help human beings evolve and become even more dominant?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, one major thing before dogs are about. You have. Humans are much better at thermoregulatory, you know, behavior. So we can take bone needles and make a complex clothing to allow us to live in these colder climates and environments and things like that. Neanderthals weren't so good at that. They would just kind of almost hibernate in caves half the time, or they would at least experience torpor. So, like, a prolonged state of just like, I'm fucked. Like, it's just so cold, you know, I can't go outside and hunt.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What's the word for that? You said torpor.

[David Ian Howe]

Torpor, yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Which is just a fancy word for just like, yo, shit sucks.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, it's when you're, like, depressed in a cave, you know, inert kind of thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yo, I've been on some torpers, dude. That has happened to me.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. I've kind of experienced it right now, actually.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No, dude. But yeah, ever since I've been doing this podcast, dude, I've been torping out, dude, sitting with you.

[David Ian Howe]

I think the Celsius kicked in.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's what it is. That's why it's so cold, dude. That's what I call Celsius.

[David Ian Howe]

That's crazy. I never thought about that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Come on, dude.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay, there we go. There you go. You got the master's degree. Yeah. So we can get into these more cold environments, and that's what's allowing us to get near these wolves better. But once you know you have wolves, you then have. Or, sorry, domestic dog. I'm gonna keep using that interchangeably. But, yeah, what I mean, domestic dogs, you now have an animal that can see, or we see better, but they can smell better, hear better, all that. You don't have to exactly stay in a cave to worry about bears and lions and things like that. You have a wolf that can just sit outside a structure on the plains and, you know, smell or hear something coming up. You don't have to worry about it as much.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So defense is a big element.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, defense and like, sentry, I guess, and just tell you when there's a tiger outside. Because before that, we know people are being eaten by cats and birds and stuff like that. Long before that, but.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I've heard that this idea of, like, specifically just having defense, like, just a sentry, like having a guard dog or like, a watchdog helps human beings, like, sleep better. It gives, like, more free time. And all of these things ultimately create more innovation. You're able to, like, create more complex tools. You're able to, like, observe, like, you know, like, animal patterns. You're able to sleep more, which, like, has, like, tremendous benefits to, like, just cognitive health. Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

Oh, fully agree.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Are there other things in that. In that regard where, like, just having dogs nearby just, like, genuinely changed, like, our physiology?

[David Ian Howe]

I. I think, yeah. The sleep thing and then. Cause I know psychologically, if you're sleeping with another person, you sleep more soundly because it's kind of defense, I guess, in a sense, or safety. Wolves, it's the same thing. And, like, when you have a dog, you do sleep better. You sleep more soundly. I think I for sure do. Like, after my dog passed, I was just like, the. Is going on. Yeah. So this is. I've not had this before because I had, like, a giant German shepherd that was huge.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Nice.

[David Ian Howe]

And like, once that, you know, line of defense is gone, you're like, I'm definitely getting, like, robbed tonight or something. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What was his name?

[David Ian Howe]

Strider.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Strider.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. He's a big boy. He's the guy on the thumbnail up there.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

He slept on the bed.

[David Ian Howe]

He hated it, actually. Yeah. So funny enough, and this kind of goes into your question, he would have multiple, like, spots in the house where he would sleep, where he had an eye on me and on the door.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No way.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Some kind of, like, entryway. That's him right there. Big boys. An elkhound and German shepherd mix. But yeah, he would sleep, like, kind of looking down the hallway right outside my door. Or he'd sleep by the front door looking at down. Where basically I would come to because he. He couldn't be chill. He wouldn't chill out unless he knew I was, like, safe, which is pretty cool. And I never taught him that. Like, it'd be way too much work to teach him that. I could barely have time to teach him to sit, but, like, yeah, he just did that. So I think wolves back then, they have that ability to, like, they're constantly patrolling their territory. They're talking, howling with each other. Other wolf packs, they want to defend their territory. They're always vigilant. So having that essentially, like an AI flesh robot that's outside your house doing that, or a village, people can just, you know, expand into anywhere across the planet.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. That's so fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Now, were they breeding them?

[David Ian Howe]

You can see genetically. I can't think of the name of the study right now, but you can. Like, dogs being traded across the old world. So about 20,000 years ago, once they start getting domesticated and like, we see dogs genetically, there's, like, you know, you can see genetically them going to. Across Eurasia, into the Americas, down into Africa and all that. And you can kind of see, you know, my dog, you have 200 gatherer bands that are kind of communicating with each other because you got to meet to exchange goods and, you know, children. So you don't get inbred. Yeah, you have probably, like, my dogs are faster. These ones are black. These ones are, you know, better at. They don't need to eat as much or something. They're better at the cold.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

This one swims more obedient. Whatever.

[David Ian Howe]

Something like that. You're trading dogs just like you're trading stone tools or any other kind of commodity.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So we can track dogs across the world like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Wow. Were there any, like, hunter gatherer groups that we know of, maybe even to, like, more contemporary, you know, history, that were masters at dog breeding or they.

[David Ian Howe]

Were masters, like, rearing dogs once the Neolithic comes about. So after agriculture and like, the rise of complex civilization, you do have, like, just a boom. Like, anywhere you see farming and agriculture, you do see dogs, like, their population boom as well. So there's no, like, you know, I can't dig up a site and see a kennel, you know, or like, this guy was definitely breeding dogs here. But you can just assume, because we know in, like, big, complex civs, you have people that are now making barrels all day, people that are making shoes. They're soldiers. There's, you know, someone that specializes in just stone tools where everyone else is farming or something. You probably have a kennel master who's like. Especially in, like, Mesopotamia or, like, Ur or Uruk, those old cities, they're gambling a lot. They were Betting they probably had dogs that were fast and doing all that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, you think they were doing dog racing?

[David Ian Howe]

Oh, for sure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Really?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, we know that in Egypt for sure. And in the Middle east they were. The saluki itself is just a fast. Greyhounds were bred for hare hunting.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Really?

[David Ian Howe]

But that for sure turned into like a bunch of Chinese guys gambling in a basement.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No way.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Just throwing stacks down, watching dogs. That's crazy. How far, I mean, how long ago is that? Like Middle Kingdom, like Old Kingdom in.

[David Ian Howe]

Terms of Egypt, I'm not sure, but basically 10,000 years ago onward, when the ice age ends, you have like the dog breeds kind of changed. This more slender standardized dog. And then in places like that you have more specialized breeds like the saluki.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, that's fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, it's probably for hare hunting, but they're definitely gambling, right?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, I imagine they have like, you know, dual purpose, you know what I mean? Like you breed them for some type of practical use and then slowly that becomes kind of like an entertainment kind of, you know, system afterwards.

[David Ian Howe]

I would agree.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So I'm curious, like, was cuteness a trait that was selected for?

[David Ian Howe]

Absolutely. So it's selected for and it's also just a byproduct of domestication. If you think of like an ibex is a wild goat with the big horns. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Crazy looking.

[David Ian Howe]

A mufon, I think, is a wild goat. Like sheep. Bighorn sheep out west are kind of the same thing. And then aurochs are an extinct kind of cow. That's what cows were bred from. They get what's called domestication syndrome. And as you breed them down to a domestic animal, they're losing those like robust aggression looking traits, like the big horns, all that stuff. And they're bred down to like a petting zoo goat where they're cute. And we literally call a kid baby goat. Dogs for a solid example, like if you think of a pug, it's just a human face. That's like what we've bred it to be.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's almost a picture of a pug, dude.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Picture a pug immediately like a loaf.

[David Ian Howe]

Of bread with feet. So it just has this human face. It's flat, the nose is up here, there's no snout. You're making, I mean, it kind of sucks. You're just making this like taking a wolf and smashing it down into that. But a byproduct of domestication is the, the ears flop down, the eyes get bigger, there's less like scary looking traits to it.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

And that's Just genetic. So you can see that with most animals and that keeps the cuteness. So we want to protect it more.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I've read that they have like, like almost like more expression that like modern dogs like compared to wolves, like you can see them, they kind of like raise their eyebrows and like turn their heads. Like they almost react as like a mirror to human expression. Is that a trait that either directly or indirectly was bred into, you know, dogs that we have today.

[David Ian Howe]

I wonder how much of that was just like right there at the, the first human and wolf that met and started talking or you know, interacting or whatever with their eye, what do you call it? Eye movement? Eye coordination. Yeah, their eye language or whatever. But yeah, after a certain amount of time it's just like that kind of just exacerbates and we can like dogs communicate. The puppy dog eye is right there. I keep looking at it like, yeah, it's like it's telling you something like please feed me, protect me, that kind of thing. And it's not. You have a kid, I'm sure you see it with your kid.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh absolutely.

[David Ian Howe]

It's called neoteny in scientific terms. So the, the something retaining juvenile traits into adulthood. So those juvenile traits that your kid has right now, when you look at it and you want to protect it, domestic animals have that as they get older. So they look cute, like they look like puppies into adulthood mainly.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting. And that helps their longevity.

[David Ian Howe]

I would agree.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like human beings are more likely to take care of them. Maybe their own are more likely to take care of them based on like how cute and like non aggressive they look.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, that's super interesting. I hope that answered your question.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, no, absolutely.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You even said something in your lecture.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Which. Where was that lecture again?

[David Ian Howe]

It was the University of Wyoming.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It was awesome.

[David Ian Howe]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's a great lecture. It's got like 600,000 views on YouTube. People should check it out. But you make a point in there that I would love for you to expound on another way that wolves and sort of being around wolves helped human beings hunt. There's the obvious examples where it's like, hey, we're going on a hunt, the wolves are going with us. They're going to attract in an animal. They're going to help us catch a scent of an animal. The things that I think people kind of associate sort of human dog hunting behavior. But you brought up this idea with the bison and that early hunter gatherers would wear wolf pelts and that that would Help them hunt.

[David Ian Howe]

You definitely watched the lecture.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

This was a fascinating. This was a fascinating tidbit. Can you expound on that? And how does wearing wolf pelts help them hunt other than looking sick?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, man. I don't remember if this was the Kiowa or somebody else on the plains, but it was a Plains tribe of indigenous peoples. And the French observed this. The Americans observed this, as everyone did. They would wear wolf pelts, like on, you know, just like a pelt, and they'd crawl up to the bison or whatever. And what's interesting, and this gets into the whole megafauna debate, like, how did the megafauna go extinct? They're not used to people, especially in the Americas because it was so isolated for so long. So bison know how to interact around wolves. They circle up. Elephants do something similar where when a wolf comes to attack, they will, like, circle up to protect the young, things like that. When they see a naked primate with a spear, they might not be as back then. Now they know not to go near people, but. Or in Yellowstone, they kind of don't care either. But they're used to the terrorists there. But, yeah, they will circle up and try to protect the young. But humans learned, okay, if I wear a wolf pelt, they'll do that same thing. So you can predict how they're hunting or how they're acting, and you can, you know, get a good shot. I think sometimes they would use a. What's called an Atlatlantic, the big spear thrower thing. The bow and arrow wasn't invented for a long time, at least in the Americas. But think in the picture in the lecture, he has a bow and arrow, but you get right up under the bison because you can predict what they're doing. And bison are gigantic and can kill you with like, just a stomp or their head. So it would have been pretty dangerous to do that at first. So having that added protection of I know they're going to do this if I dress like a wolf really helps. So I think that's an adult. Yeah, spirit, that's Aztec word, or atlat is what it's called. But it's just a lever device that you throw a big spear with. They probably would have been using that. But yeah, you can just basically hunt more efficiently by mimicking wolves. And I think back in the day, like when we left Africa and got to Eurasia, we're watching wolves do that kind of stuff and doing those same things, but we can at least observe it on the plains.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That is so interesting to me. You basically have bison and wolves going at it for, like, millennia that they've just been battling each other. And as a result, the bison create a defense mechanism of how to deal with wolves. They. They move in this predictable way. The wolves know how to hunt them, and it's just a dance that's been going on forever.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Then human beings show up in. The bison don't know what to do, so they. They're skittish, they behave erratically and chaotically. But when they dress as wolves, they can trick the bison into thinking that they're wolves and behaving in the way that they're used to observing them. And then you can get right under them and sneak attack. It's just like, one, human ingenuity and two, thanks to the wolves, you know, Appreciate that. You know what I mean?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Plus one for them. Because it's remarkably fascinating how it means monkey see, monkey do, essentially when. How humans adapt to a landscape. But most of archeology is understanding how humans use the environment they're in to, you know, adapt and survive kind of thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

So that, like, wolves being part of that environment would have been like a learning tool, but also you had to work around it kind of thing. Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, that's just like, so brilliant. I wonder. I wonder if they do that with other animals. Like, I can imagine early hunter gatherers, like, basically using the way other animals hunt. And they're like, okay, we can do some version of this, you know what I mean? Like. Or like, we'll camouflage, we'll hide somewhere. You know what I mean? Like, we'll run and chase them down and we can outrun them.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But just straight up dressing like wolves. I'd never heard that before.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, me either. Until I read it in that. It was like. It's called an ethnography. So, like, when the French would write, here's what the natives were doing and stuff, and like, you just read that and, like, that's really cool.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So, so clever.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, that's wild.

[David Ian Howe]

In terms of other animals, I. I can't really think of something off the top of my head, but I do know you're watching birds and other animals, especially, like the early peoples in the Americas coming through and colonizing it or peopling it. I guess back in the day in the Ice Age, you're probably watching animals eat certain, like, fungi because you don't want to trip balls and eat it or get poisoned and shit yourself to death.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

This is the story, I think, with ayahuasca that I'VE heard this, like, it's sort of folklore, but like, that the jaguars, what ultimately led the. I don't even know the Mayans, but basically like Central Mesoamerican, you know, indigenous people. I don't actually know. It was the people before the people, I think is how they described them.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, the Mayans would talk about this, like, proto tribal group that didn't even have a name. They're just like the people before.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That the jaguar showed them how to find ayahuasca. Because, like, to find ayahuasca, like, you have to mix these two different. Like you basically have to mix like a mushroom with a tree bark. You have to make like a brew out of the tree here.

[David Ian Howe]

This.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Then mix it. It's like a very complex form of chemistry that gives, like, this the most insane hallucination, especially for people, you know, 20,000 years ago.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And so, I mean. Yeah, they would have been tripping. And so for them to figure this out is, like, pretty remarkable. And their story is like, oh, yeah, the jaguar showed us. And so some people think, like, oh, maybe that is a semi true story of like a jaguar eating these two things simultaneously, then having this weird hallucination where, like, they are. They're looking at this jaguar just like, absolutely tripping balls. Yeah. Other people think it's just like, oh, this is folklore for, like, you know, a human being did it. Then they said it was the gods or whatever else.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But that idea of, like, watching animals eat stuff and being like, oh, that stuff is good to eat, that stuff is bad to eat. It's just, you know, again, just really ingenious, you know, I would agree.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. I don't know how much of a mix of both of that it is, especially for ayahuasca, but because it is. Yeah. Like a complex potion, essentially. Truly, how do these two things interact that way and then know what it does when you drink it? But yeah. Yeah. I imagine a lot of stuff is just watching animal behavior. And we can get into this later, but with like, Anubis and Egyptian mythology, dogs always kind of serve as, like a spirit guide where they. They appear when you die and they help you meet the other gods or whatnot. I think that comes from scavenging bones and things like that and how dogs were, you know, how they came to be from scavenging carcasses and all that stuff.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

So Anubis. Yeah. When you die in Egyptian mythology, he greets you and, like, puts your heart on the scale or whatever. And, like, you Face the judgment of a dog, which is, like, really interesting to me in itself, but I think that comes. And he's the God of the dead, so I think that comes from jackals, scavenging tombs, and all that. And in Aztec mythology as well, there's a show is the dog God Quetzalcoat's brother and. Or, you know, cousin or something like that. But he same thing. Dogs will ferry you across the river to the land of the dead. So if you were kind to dogs, they'll help you cross it or whatnot. But I think especially in Aztec mythology, too, when the. They were creating the world, there's like four iterations of it. Then the last time they, like, got a bunch of bones that didn't work correctly, tried to make all these people. You know, it's kind of just, you know, how those pantheon religions go. There's a million different ways to talk about it, but Quetzalcoat and Sherlock go down to the underworld and find a bunch of bones. And it's just interesting that the main God and his dog go down, they find bones, and the dog finds the bones. They bring that back up to the world and then make the final iteration of people out of those bones.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So it's connected, right?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So, yeah, I guess the early, you know, like, cohabitation with dogs then influences the folklore that then comes from those agrarian societies.

[David Ian Howe]

Yes, exactly that, I think.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

It's super interesting. And I know a lot of people might try to connect, like, oh, did the Egyptians meet with the Aztecs or something like that? But I think probably not.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They probably both had dogs.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And they just. Dogs have the same behavior. They scavenge dead stuff and just kind of arises from that. Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, again, I love those theories, don't get me wrong. Where it's like, they're fascinating, dude. The Aztecs and the Egyptians were boys. I'm like, all right. I mean, they both had pyramids, they both had dogs going to the afterlife. But then there's also, like, all right, well, maybe that's just like, the best way to stack up stones really high is make him into a pyramid. And if they both have dogs, they're probably using them for similar reasons. And, you know, it's not on. It's not impossible that they would deduce, you know, similar folklore from having similar relationships with these dogs. Yeah, yeah. It's just. I don't know. To me, that's. That's fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

The Egyptians loved animals in this way. Huh?

[David Ian Howe]

Really did huge statues of Them cats.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Dogs, like they would like deify them effectively.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, there's one that's like a hippo, crocodile and like parrot at the same time or something.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

I don't know what. What it is, but now, did.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Would you say that every prehistoric civilization had a relationship with dogs?

[David Ian Howe]

The only place that. Yes. The only place that dogs don't really get to early on is like South America and Australia for a bit.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Makes sense.

[David Ian Howe]

Because they can't get through the tropics for whatever reason. I guess it's because, like when early peoples are exploring the tropics, you can boil water and know not to drink the putrid shit, but a dog's gonna sneak off and drink it and it's. It dies or something. I don't know what it is. But eventually the dingo gets to Australia. Or a domestic dog that becomes a dingo.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

How does that. Is that back in Pangea days? But how does he get to Australia?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, this is like, this is post ice age. So post 20,000 years, where dogs are about. Ice age ends 10,000 years ago. And then you have. I think the dingo gets to Australia genetically by 10,000 years. The earliest dingo remains are about 3,000, 4,000 years old. But it was a domestic dog brought to the continent by, you know, seafaring people, either on a boat or something like that, or there was a land bridge at that time for most of Southeast Asia. It was called Wallachia, I think. And there's another one too, but all those little, you know, Java, Indonesia, it's all kind of the water levels lower, you can walk across it. Australia, I think, still had a water between it, but dingoes get there. There's no wolves, there's no mammals on Australia. It's all marsupials.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

Which I guess are mammals, but non placental mammals, I should say. And then dingoes get there and they're like, holy shit. Like kangaroos everywhere. And they can just. They just dominated the landscape. Oh, wow. So my theory would be that that's why the thylacine kind of went extinct. You can see the obviously like, you know, colonists getting there and not colonists. You'd say it's like the British getting there. Whatever. There's. There were literal warrants for shooting Tasmanian tigers, but I think the. The dog kind of outcompeted them and their populations dwindled already, so. And the dingoes just kind of did their own thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I would presume that the dingoes would have some type of like, disadvantage, like if every not every, but, like, the vast majority of the animals on the Australian continent are marsupials. I would assume that there's a biological adaptation or an advantage for being that way.

[David Ian Howe]

Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, you have to cross, like, mass stretches of land and the outback is massive, and you got to have your babies with you and you got to move quickly. So it's like, all right, you can understand why kangaroo kind of looks the way it does, but then all of a sudden, you drop like this dingo in there that's used to being in, you know, like Tajikistan or whatever.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And then all of a sudden, now they're Australia and they're like, oh, shit. How do. Like, I figured that the environment that created all these marsupials would disadvantage, you know, like a canine or, you know, a dog in that way.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But for whatever reason, they seemed like they dominated.

[David Ian Howe]

I'm looking all around because you asked a good question. I'm trying to think of an answer, but I don't know actually why the. There probably is an advantage to marsupials over placental mammals in Australia. That. That's a question I'd never really thought of.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right. But I guess maybe by the time they get there, there's already such a ecosystem that they can just post up in their little area. They don't have to travel as far.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And they can just chomp on wombats and shit and just keep it pushing.

[David Ian Howe]

Did you know wombat shit cubes?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No.

[David Ian Howe]

No, I didn't know that either.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Can we pull up wombat shit immediately? Yeah, I'm absolutely. That's. That's. There's no way. It's. They're cubed.

[David Ian Howe]

Something like that. Yeah. And there was a Pleistocene wombat, too, so. Like a giant one in the Ice Age. So they just shit. Like Amazon box size. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Look at that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That looks delicious.

[David Ian Howe]

I know. It's a brownie, dude. The forbidden brownie.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Thank God we don't have those here, bro. I would be chew that all the time. Why are they. Dude, they got cubed. Can you pull up a wombat?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, pull up wombat. That's crazy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

There's no way. Why is that? That is bizarre, bro. Dude, wombats might have built the pyramids, dude. That is wild. Yo. That is kind of cubicle, yo. Why?

[David Ian Howe]

I think that's its pouch. No, dude, you think that's a cube?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's his little wussy. That's wild.

[David Ian Howe]

That's cr.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That makes me feel uncomfortable, to be honest with you.

[David Ian Howe]

I never knew that they.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They poop.

[David Ian Howe]

Cubes.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You don't gotta zoom in. It's got a glaze on it. Damn.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, but if you look up Ice age Australian animals, like, they had giant kangaroos. They would have been like a formidable scary ass. Just like the Americas, just giant kangaroos. Giant, you know, Iguanodon, whatever that thing is.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's what I feel like it looks like now.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

In certain parts.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, that's what I assume it is today.

[David Ian Howe]

Go out there and fucking die.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, like, what the hell? That might just be a photograph. I don't even think that's a painting. That's just a flick.

[David Ian Howe]

I talked about this with Donnie too, and I've done this. Usually does pretty well on stage. But the. You know, you think of Australia as this big poisonous place with snakes and scorpions and this box jellyfish that can kill you. But, like, you avoid that stuff, you're fine. But like, to other people around the world, like, in America, we just have bears and wolves. Just like walking through Jackson, Wyoming.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's a decent point.

[David Ian Howe]

And it's like just remnant ice age predators are just gutting people.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. I grew up in Florida and like.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay, so you have Australia of the.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

South in a way. Like, I, like, I to this day have a fear of bears.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, as a guy that lives in Brooklyn, New York, I'm, like, genuinely afraid of, like, not gay, like, actual bears. Like, just like the Florida black bear is, like. Because as a kid, I would walk out of my backyard.

[David Ian Howe]

There's bears there.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, dude. I would walk in my backyard and there would just be a bear once a week, just really, just posted up, just going through the trash, just like chilling. And then you'd go out and they would freak out. They'd be like, ah. And then they'd run. But like, sometimes they would just run up a tree.

[David Ian Howe]

Are they pretty big?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They're small. I'll be honest, they're pretty small. And. But you'd go out there and you see a really small one, and then that's when you knew you were. Because you would go out there and you'd be like, oh, the bears are pretty small. But you see a really small one and you're like, oh, that's a baby. And the mama's around.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And like, you would hear like, crazy, like. And then like, the bears would smack the ground and then they would run up a tree and then you just. My mom would be like, yeah, you can't go outside for the next three days because, like, we don't know when the Bear is going to come down the tree. Like, there's a whole family of bears in the tree directly outside my house, and we just gotta chill. Yeah. I'll be like, go in the lake. Then you go on the lake. And then there's just alligators everywhere.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And so my childhood was just, like, dodging bears and alligators.

[David Ian Howe]

I lived in Georgia for a while in Augusta, and I was up on the Savannah river right there. And I forgot there's, like, alligators there, too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

And I had my dog who's, like, born and raised in Wyoming, and, like, in the mountains. We're used to moose and bears and stuff. And then he's just playing in the water, and I'm trying to take pictures. Like, for this photo shoot thing. No, for Instagram. And I'm like, wait a minute, there's alligators here? Like, I had to, like, rip him out of the way.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That happens all the time. Like, the amount of times, like, little dogs, like, in my neighborhood would just, like, go missing. That's often 1 million percent. I mean, it wouldn't be, like, every. Every day, but it'd be like, yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

It wasn't like a crackhead.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Or like, yeah, no, dude. I think the crocodiles would get the crackheads. But, like, you would just be out, and someone would be like, yeah, have you seen my dog? And it'd be like a little, you know, Teacup poodle.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And then they would just be gone, and he'd be like, well, they probably got a crocodile. Got him. You know, like, probably an alligator's chomped him. That happens all the time.

[David Ian Howe]

I didn't even think about that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Dude. Lake Jessup, like, near where I grew up. I think that one lake, because they were using it at one point, like, Florida wildlife, I think. I hope this is not blasphemous. I apologize, Florida Game of Wildlife. But I. I think they were taking the gators that they would rescue. Rescue that they would seize from someone's pool.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Because there would just be gators in.

[David Ian Howe]

Someone'S pool, like, all the time that I've seen.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And so they would take the gators and then they would throw them into Lake Jessup, and then as a result, they would just breed like crazy. And Lake Jessup, I think, has more gators than the population of Florida.

[David Ian Howe]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, one lake. Like, can you look up how many gators are in Lake Jessup estimate? It's insane. Like, I think.

[David Ian Howe]

I didn't know that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's like, millions of gators in this one little lake. And People still go boating out there.

[David Ian Howe]

You just coexist with them. Huh?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Okay, 12,000. All right, so maybe not them. All right, that might. Someone lied. Someone lied. Someone lied to me. You know what I mean? Someone lied to me as a kid. Whatever. You get my point? Okay, 12,000 gators in one spot. That's insane. What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because we got merch, if you don't know. We got camp research and development merchandise. You can see it right here. Also, my buddy Andrew Schultz was actually just out hanging with his fam, having a good old time. All of a sudden, a dude walks up to me, goes, yo, what'? Schultze. And guess what? He was wearing this shirt right here. So shout out to that legend, whoever you are. You're the man. I appreciate that. And if you want to cop your very own camp threads, go to camp-rd.com we're dropping all sorts of new gear. You can see some of the images here of some of the products that we got. And anytime you buy a T shirt, you help this show directly operate. It is a huge, huge lift. And I'm very grateful for everyone that reps the gear, especially at the live shows. Seeing you guys wearing the T shirts at the shows truly makes my life. It's the coolest thing ever. I cannot believe people are actually wearing clothes that me and my friends are designing and sending imessage chats like, yo, you think this is cool? It's the craziest thing in the world. And I'm so grateful for everyone that does it. Check it out. We got the link in the description. Now let's get back to the show. The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time selling, celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor, like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot.

[David Ian Howe]

But with bears and stuff too, I think. And there's a definite correlation with this with hyenas. Are you familiar with cave hyenas at all? No. Okay, so hyenas are. I love history hyenas, so I got really nice too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Shout out, Chris and Yanni.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, shout out. But they hyenas are just super formidable animals in Africa right now. They scavenge, they do all this stuff. They're cleft to parasites, in a sense. They'll take the carcasses of other. You know, they'll steal kills of other animals, usually lions. But lions do the same thing. There would have been giant ones in Ice Age Europe and Asia that had longer legs and they could run faster.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Whoa.

[David Ian Howe]

But you start to see, around 15,000 years ago, they disappear in, like, Siberia area. And that's probably either to do with. Most animals are dying off with the Ice Age ending, but humans can then send in a dog. Like, you have a literal drone. You can just whistle, throw it in a cave, and it will flush out those animals for you. So then you can use those, like, caves that Neanderthals and other people couldn't get to because it was just cave hyenas, the most frequent thing you find in, like, Ice Age sites in Europe because they just brought so much shit into those caves. And there's human hair and, like, hyena feces sometimes, too. Pretty cool.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Sketchy.

[David Ian Howe]

But you're. Then you're using dogs to, like, flush these animals out and cave bears as well, go extinct at a certain point.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Because you and your boys post up outside the cave. You got your, you know, whatever that thing was, the atl. What's it called?

[David Ian Howe]

Atlatl.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

The Atlatl or whatever that version is out there.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And then you send a dog in there, the bears run out.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And then you just.

[David Ian Howe]

Something like that. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Whoa.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Maybe you go in together and just, you know, whatever you. Whatever you're doing, you aspire, smoke it out or something.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's crazy.

[David Ian Howe]

There's just uses for dogs back then. Would have been. It just would have been a game changer.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

It's like AI back then.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Literally, it is a drone. That is fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I'm curious, like. And again, this is going to get somewhat culturally insensitive.

[David Ian Howe]

No, I don't give a.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But there are. Should I say most? I don't even know if you could say most. But a vast majority, a big number of people on the planet don't eat dogs. Yeah. And there are some people that culturally they do, which, again, I actually have no moral qualms about. Like, it's funny to joke about, you know, I mean, like, oh, Chinese people eat dogs. Sure.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Which is obviously a cultural stereotype, but there also is, like, a precedent for it. Like, they have dog festivals where, like, they eat dogs and it's just a thing. You know what I mean? And dogs are animals and I eat animals. So, like, I have no philosophical reason why or, like a logical Reason why I shouldn't eat a dog. But yet there's something about it to me that I'm like, you guys did your time, you know, I mean, like, dogs helped human beings get here.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, it feels bad to eat them.

[David Ian Howe]

They worked to not be a kebab.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You know what I mean? Like, they. They put in time for it.

[David Ian Howe]

Like.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like cows didn't really do that. Like, you know.

[David Ian Howe]

Sure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, other, like, fish didn't put in the hours. They weren't in the gym shooting. You know what I mean?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But dogs were. So as a result, I'm like, maybe we shouldn't eat them. I'm curious if you think that there's any, like, I guess, like, anthropological reason why we have an aversion, specifically in the west to not eating dogs.

[David Ian Howe]

That's a good question. We did talk about this analogies a little bit, or. She interjected with it, but did she frame it as.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

As bad as I did?

[David Ian Howe]

No, no. I think you did quite a good job. I will say, just for the most part, dogs were eaten most of history, all the time.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

You can see evidence of that. Like, probably until, like, 1980, people are just chowing on dogs most of the time when there's food insecurity.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, they call them chows.

[David Ian Howe]

Chinese dogs are chow. Chows. I didn't think about that. Got that. So there's the other thing too, with, like, meat has a. His. An anthropological thing too. Like in English, we have beef and then cow. Like, we have a different word for meat. Right. Chicken is chicken for whatever reason, poultry.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Versus, like, I guess, like bird or whatever.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, something like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, poultry is what you eat, whereas, like, birds are the animal.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, yeah. I think it comes from French and like, Old English, like the different versions of that. But we're more detached from our food in that sense. You can separate pork from pig, and it's. You're not eating a pig, you're eating pork.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I don't eat a baby cow.

[David Ian Howe]

Yes. And veal sounds classy. Yeah, yeah. So there's like that kind of distinction in our culture where it's like, we still have dog as dog. You don't have dog meat doesn't have, like, a different word. Not that it's like a commodity that people eat all the time, but there's some cultural thing where we just don't eat dogs. And I think it's because in, you know, Europe or Eurasia, we had. In early America, we had, you know, plenty of meat and other stuff to eat. Then dogs but the cultural things of. Like, in India, they don't eat cows because of Hinduism or whatever. So it just depends on your culture. But for most of history, like, dogs are just eaten. And you can see it in, like, bones. You can see it in, like, Captain Cook ate a bunch of dog. You can read it in his journals. Oh, really? He would go to Polynesia. There's a whole other fascinating topic, but island to island. And they kept offering him dogs. And they get to the islands and they'd be like, here's a dog. And he's like, I'm good. Like, I'm not going to eat this. And then you can see in his journals, he finally, like, gives in. He's like, we'll try it. And he, like, wrote that it was a good eating because it, like, they would just. There's. The Polynesians brought pigs and chickens to their islands, too, and rats as well. But dogs, I guess, weren't as meaty. And they wanted to preserve the pigs and the chickens and stuff. So they would eat dogs as a ceremonial thing. And it was, like, usually out of reverence. So they didn't hate the dogs by any means.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

But then Cook eventually was like, you guys got dog. And, like, he'd eat something too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

There's actually a great book. Could you look up the name of this? Because I always mess it up. I'll be honest. The title is not the best, but the book is fascinating. It's called Pigs, Witches and War. Search that book. And it's basically an anthropologist that went through all of these, like, cultural reasons why people do things and eat certain things or don't eat certain things. Yeah, Cows, Pigs, wars and Witches by Marvin Harris. And basically, I mean, just in short, he basically sort of analyzes, like, cultural stories, folklore, religious ideologies and where he believes they actually come from. Okay, so, for example, like, Muslims, Jews, some Christian sex. Like, Ethiopian Christians don't eat pork.

[David Ian Howe]

I didn't know that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Why is that? And if you go to, you know, Muslims, they'll be like, it's in the Quran. Go to Jews. They're like, you know, it's in the Torah. Ethiopian Christians will be like, well, we follow, you know, the Judeo Christian, you know, sort of like purity laws. And so they're like, yeah, we just don't do it because God said so. And then he's like, well, why did God say so? And then he goes all the way back and he's like, well, some people believe that, like, the pigs would make you sick. He's Like, I actually don't think that's what it was. He was like, the pigs were extremely hard to raise. And so even in, like, agrarian societies, you would have pigs, but they just required so much food that it was actually disadvantageous to raise pigs at scale.

[David Ian Howe]

Interesting.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And so the societies would have, you know, potential famine or, like, collapse by basically how much they were feeding the pigs versus, like, how much meat they actually got. So anytime they would eat the pigs, it would be like a big ceremonial thing. And then they eventually said, no pigs. And then similar with, like, cows, obviously, Hinduism is like, this belief that the cow is, like, the sacred mother, that all things exist within the divinity of the cow, and that, like, you know, it gives so much. But then again, according to Marvin Harris here, in short, he basically says, like, the type of cows that were showing up in, like, the Indus Valley, like, in India at the time were actually not that meaty. And again, they also were difficult to raise. So he kind of goes back to these, like, cultural ideas and then breaks them down anthropologically. And to me, it's just, like, fascinating where, like, in America, we sort of have, like, a shared myth of, like, don't eat dogs.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And it's not religious, but it's borderline. No pun intended. Dogmatic. Right. You know what I mean? That we're like, hey, we don't eat dogs. And everyone's just like, yeah, of course you can't eat them. And then you ask why? And you're like, well, there's no reason, really. But I wonder if it's sort of that shared history of, like, you, you know, come out of a culture of Western Europe, you have all these domesticatable animals. You don't need dogs. So as a result, you're like, yeah, we don't use them for eating. We use them for hunting and companionship, et cetera.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And then you create this mythology around it.

[David Ian Howe]

That's a good point. I would have thought it was disease, why they didn't eat pigs, but they're eating.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's what I assumed it was, but my boy Marvin here says that that's not necessarily the case. Great book. I mean, fascinating. I'm sure based off your work, you'd find it fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I'd love to read that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I'm also curious about, like, dog breeds.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So how do, like, we go from this wolf that then slowly gets domesticated, but then we get, like, border collies that are able to do one thing, and then we get poodles that are able to, like, go on water and then you get like German shepherds that are obedient. Like, how do you get all these different Pokemon? You know, like, we go from like one source to then all these sort of disparate things with like different talents.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

How does that happen?

[David Ian Howe]

Love that you use Pokemon. Yeah, I said this in lecture too. Like, evolution's not Pokemon. Like things that we have this. You're a millennial too, right? Or something?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right on the precipice.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay, cool.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

96.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay, 92. So we're right there. Evolution. We have this idea that it just happens like overnight and you have like another creature the next day. It doesn't happen like that. It's like a slow and gradual thing, as Darwin phrased it. But in terms of like breeds, it did take probably 10,000 ish years for dogs to start brand, at least in my opinion, from what you can see archaeologically, them branching out into like distinct looking breeds. But for the longest time, dogs would have just been like a dingo looking thing. There's just that standard yellow coat. Probably made grayish at some point. But has a wolf like appearance in terms of skeleton.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

It's a little more shrunken. The teeth. The dogs get what's called teeth crowding. You can tell a domestic dog from a wolf because their teeth are more scrunched together in their mouth, like proportionally.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

So it's very hard. When you find a wolf skull 10,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, versus, you know, right. When wolves are coming about, it would have been the same skeleton and it still is in a sense. So it's hard to tell. But when you get to, you know, 10,000 years ago onward until like especially 5,000 years, you then start to see more like greyhounds are a huge thing. In ancient Rome and Greece they had greyhounds. They had. Egypt had them as well. The saluki, as I mentioned before, China has some very old breeds like the Chow Chow and the Shih Tzu and the, the big wrinkly one. I forget what that's called. That's very old.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Shar Pei.

[David Ian Howe]

Shar Pei. There you go. Yeah, they're very old. So you start to see it and it's either for status or it's just for, you know, in this area. They look different just like people do. And they start to. Those ones start to breed together and become that. Not entirely sure, but probably back in the day it was just for speed and I can feed it less or something like that. Or it was a good hunting dog because, you know, in the Americas they Were hunting with dogs constantly in Europe. They were, too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But I guess the diff. The type of thing you're hunting would also necessitate a different type of dog.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So I bet you the predator probably also affects the type of traits you're breeding for.

[David Ian Howe]

Like the predator you're hunting or the prey.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, the predator you're hunting or the prey, rather. Okay. But, like, I remember, like, going, like, hunting in France. I was out there. We were doing, like, duck hunting.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And they have, like, specific duck hunting dogs. I don't even know what they are. But, like, you shoot a duck dog, runs out, retrieves it. Some type of retriever. Yeah. But then they would be like, oh, but if you're gonna go pig hunting, you have to use a different type of dog. And the reason they were explaining to me is that you would get, like, these little dogs. It was almost like a schnauzery type thing.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And they would go for the pig balls. And they were literally trained to, like, they would run after these pigs, and, like, the pigs would be running around, and these little dogs would run, grab the pig balls, and try to make them, like, you know, panic, freak out, and then you can shoot them easier.

[David Ian Howe]

That's up.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Crazy, right? Yeah. I mean, it's demented, you know? I mean, but hunting. Hunting me like that. But they were like, the smaller dogs are actually better because when the boars will, like, ram them, they fly, but they don't get hurt.

[David Ian Howe]

Oh, interesting.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And so, like, a big dog might be a little bit slower, but even if they're fast, a pig could hit them and they would take on more damage. Whereas, like, these little dogs who just, like, flame, and then they'd be able to run back without as much damage.

[David Ian Howe]

That makes sense, too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But I was like, oh, that's fascinating. So then I wonder if you're selecting for different types of animals over time. Like hunting a bison versus, like, I don't know, duck hunting or, like, hunting, like, you know, like, birds or, like, hunting. I don't even know what else, you know, bears or whatever else. I imagine different types of dogs would do better jobs, you know, like. Like pit bulls, I think, were. I mean, they were, like, literally like, bulldogs. Like, they were, like, meant for, like, hunting bulls or some shit. Some. Some version of that. Yeah, but it makes a lot of sense.

[David Ian Howe]

You know, I think so, too. And I never thought about that. Like, you can take a hit better when you're smaller because.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I don't know if that's true. Some French guy who's ripping a cigarette.

[David Ian Howe]

While he's telling me, so I hope he was.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. I don't know if it's the best.

[David Ian Howe]

Source if he's not ripping a cig.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But you need the little dogs. You know, they're very cute, and they can fly in.

[David Ian Howe]

They come back. All the dogs.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They were French dogs, too. They're like.

[David Ian Howe]

That's how they sound. But yeah, man, I don't know, because, like, raccoon dogs I know are like, hounds are loud. And, like, if you think of, like, the. The typical, like, British hunt with the Royals, that would do it. You had really loud dogs that would alert you when they found the prey. They chase the prey, put it up a tree.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

And those are smaller dogs, too, because you're. You're. That's a raccoon dog. Nice. But, yeah. No, no, I'll just look at. Those are related.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Coonhound.

[David Ian Howe]

Coonhound. Yeah. And fun fact, I wrote a book on Shiloh as a kid in fourth grade as my book report, and it was a coonhound in the book, but my teacher kept crossing out coon, I guess because it sounds racist.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That shit does sound a little racist.

[David Ian Howe]

It definitely does. But then I only learned it was a racist term because my parents were like, why she keep. Like, they explained to me why my teacher kept cutting that out.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's so funny.

[David Ian Howe]

It was a raccoon hound.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's so funny.

[David Ian Howe]

So my teacher actually taught me the racist term. But in general, yeah, they. They're loud and they. They tree the raccoon up the tree. And I did a podcast with Bear, Bear Grease. It was meat eater Clay Newcombe. He'd be a great guest for you at some point, but he's a raccoon hunter with dogs and stuff, and he was asking me all sorts of questions about it. But, yeah, they just tree the animal. And that's probably what was happening most of the time, is you just like. I know for a bison, when you're hunting bison, I haven't seen anyone hunt bison with dogs. It's probably, like, pretty dangerous for him now. I can imagine. But the way wolves hunt bison is they, like, just slowly bite and nip at their, like, legs until it gives out kind of thing. So you need something with a formidable jaw.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

And all that. But right now, it's probably just steering the animal in a certain way so you can use your projectile weapon separated.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

From a pack or whatever. Like, however they're protecting themselves.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, something like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Not. Not sure, but The. The small dog thing. That's fascinating. I never heard that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean. Yeah. I don't know if it's true, but it sounds interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

He's hunting. I'm not, so I'll take his word for it. Yeah. Well, did that answer your question?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Absolutely.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I'm just so fascinated by these dog breeds, and then at a certain point, human beings are just like, okay, we don't care what they do. We just want companionship.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Is that pretty new? Is that like the last, like, 60 years? 70 years?

[David Ian Howe]

I would say, like, that the boom in dog breeds that we, like, know today is the Victorian era in England.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Or like, in France and stuff, too. That's when the kennel club comes about. But you have rich people with leisure time that have the money to, like, fund a kennel guy to breed these animals to do certain things. And that's when you get, like, poodles. That's when you get Poodles might be older actually, but, Yeah, I thought poodles were.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. I had a. I had a poodle growing up. Okay. I know my last name is French. We had poodles. We ate grapes. I'm pretty. I'm pretty bad. The culture. But poodles, like, they were called that because I think they were good in water and that the traditional, like, poodle cuts you would see would, like, make them agile, and they wouldn't get their. But so they wouldn't get their hair tangled up, but they would stay warm in all the essential places because they would jump in the water. Like, they would literally be puddle dogs. And then that became.

[David Ian Howe]

That's where poodle comes from. Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's what I was.

[David Ian Howe]

That I didn't know.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But, like, if you look at. Oh, yeah, it comes. The name poodle comes from the German word poodel or poodle, which means to splash in water. And, yeah, they splash about.

[David Ian Howe]

Well, the more, you know.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So it's not a French dog. Hold on. While the modern image of poodle in France, the breeds. Oh, they're German.

[David Ian Howe]

Damn it.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They got us again.

[David Ian Howe]

They got all this stuff.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Damn it. Dude. I'm secretly.

[David Ian Howe]

Take your land.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, man. But that is fascinating. Like, yeah, they would. They're. They're bred as water retrievers. And, like, can you look up, like, the traditional poodle cut? Because, like, they look very dumb. You'd look at a poodle.

[David Ian Howe]

Oh, like the haircut.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Like, they look absurd, but, like, to my knowledge, the original, like, poodle cuts were in order to, like, keep them warm. And so, like. Like this. If you go to, like, the center. Center, middle. Yeah, that one right there. Like, that's like. You go to, like, a show. And, like, they look absurd, but, like, they would try to, like, keep, like, their paws warm. They'd keep, like, their internal organs warm. But, like, their legs, they would be not able to get tangled up and they wouldn't be weighed down as much in the water.

[David Ian Howe]

Interesting. What's the thing on its back? I guess just like a.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's so you can ride it. Your kids can ride on. It's a saddle. It's for a very small Frenchman to ride around. Exactly. Napoleon actually would ride on poodles into war. Not a lot of people know that. Look that up. Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

But, yeah, Victorian era is where you start to see, like, I can't think of the names of the breed now, but, like, the. The English teacup dogs. Those, like, the fancy little pug like, things.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Purse dogs.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, that Paris Hilton. Stuff like that comes out around then. And. Because people, I think, had the time. But I do know in, like, ancient Rome, people would buy Egyptian greyhounds and. Have you been to Rome?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, I have, actually.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay. Like, any statue you see there, it's either Romulus and Remus and the wolf or it's a greyhound. And they had, like. For whatever reason, I think there's Italian greyhound, too, that they used. But they would import fancy ones from Egypt. And if you were, like, we were wealthy, you had a greyhound, which is pretty sick.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

So it was a status symbol then. And also probably gambling or just. It could hunt and do all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, Remus and Romulus is another great wolf story that exists in folklore.

[David Ian Howe]

It's interesting, too, the Mongols, at least. I don't know if it's modern Mongol religion, but I know, like, whatever Genghis Khan was into, humans and dogs descend from wolves together. So, like, we have a shared heritage as wolves. And he believed his grandfather was a wolf or something. Or his great grandfather. He's probably wrong about that. But he. I don't know.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

We'll look into it.

[David Ian Howe]

It worked for him. It got him all the way from wherever he was to, like, Poland.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. I mean, it kind of worked, right?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. He needed a wolf grandfather, but, yeah, Romulus and Remus as well. That was the. They became the founders of Rome. I don't think the first emperors, but, like, they.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, they were the. The founding people from, like, the wolf mother. Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

And the wolf, like, raised them and helped like, tackled them or whatever it was.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right. But basically to say, like, hey, the Roman people are descendants of wolves, like, it's effectively the same story.

[David Ian Howe]

No, exactly. And I noticed this too in doing several projects in school when I was looking up dog remains at different archaeological sites. You quite often find dog skulls with, like, boring on the side, so, like holes. And it was probably for a totem pole or like you just had a staff with the wolf skull on it. But then I was thinking about, like, you see Roman centurions wearing the wolf pelt thing. Vikings do it. Like the guy who stormed the Capitol January 6th. That guy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

But I think really, it's just like anytime you put a wolf skull on your head, you just say, hell, yeah, yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, truly.

[David Ian Howe]

Then it seems to be cross cultural. Whether it was like, you know, there's more spirituality to that. Sure, right. But it just. I think it kind of just stems from hell.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it really does. Like, more than any. Like, I don't know, you put an iguana in your head, people be like, it's interesting. You know what I mean? Like, you'd be like, it's cool.

[David Ian Howe]

It's a lizard guy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, it's kind of cool. But it's not like you're not intimidated. Like, you wear a jaguar, you wear a wolf, and people like, oh, yeah, you don't.

[David Ian Howe]

That guy. Yeah, it's like a warrior type kind of thing. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Because I guess we just see wolves as warriors. Like something like. Like, I think it's just built into, like, our human cultural understanding of, like, how, you know, dogs and humans co evolve or like.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Did you respect wolves? They're warriors.

[David Ian Howe]

Sure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They're the best of us.

[David Ian Howe]

And it kind of gets into the. Once you get agriculture and you have, you know, sheep and stuff to take care of, that's when like the big bad wolf and like that kind of stuff and like, wolf stuff is a problem today for sure. I know that's a very political topic, but, like, that's a whole other thing. You know, you gotta bring a wolf stuff. But it's just kind of interesting because it's like human politics gets so dicey. Wolves are so, you know, related to humans in a sense that it also becomes very political. But once agriculture comes about, you start to see wolves are more persecuted. Whereas, like before or in pre agricultural societies, wolves are much more like in the Mongol sense. They're not agrarians, they're pastoralists. So, like, animals their whole life, wolves are more noble or related to them. Kind of thing in, like, medieval England, it's just they're eating your sheep, so you got to shoot them kind of thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

It turns into that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And you get the werewolf that comes out of that mythology. I'm sure.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I think English folklore, too. Like, there's a. If you see a wolf or a dog at night that's black and has red eyes, it means, like, you're gonna die.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

Or it comes. It's a black dog. Folklore, I think, is what it's called.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But pretty safe bet. Yeah. You see, like, a dog with red eyes, like. Yeah, dude. Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

Cooked.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, you're probably cooked, right?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, something like that. So that. That comes about too. But I've noticed in, like, Western tradition, it does seem to be more. Yeah, there you go. Dragon of the dead. Underworld, Supernatural forces.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So if you see manifestation of the devil. Whoa.

[David Ian Howe]

That one I haven't heard. That was pretty cool. Agents of Satan. I didn't know that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Wow.

[David Ian Howe]

Chihuahuas are for sure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

But things like that. It just, like every culture somehow has a dog mythology to it or like a wolf mythology to it. And I think Odin, when you get to Valhalla, has a. A dog that sits with them. I don't know what the dog's name is, but Fenrir is the wolf God. I think he's Loki's son or something. The. His sons eat the sun and the moon every night or something. Ragnarok. They'll eat something like that. But there's always, like. It has to do with the end of the world, the death. Something. That is interesting.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's interesting that dogs are associated with death, I guess, from, like, the scavenger relationship. Like, if you found something dead, you probably find some wolves or some dogs around it.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. And I know in Egypt for sure that, like, jackals do scavenge tombs. It's a problem. They gotta, like, shoo them out or at least, you know, in the past, maybe. Now the Antiquities Authority is pretty on it, but back in the day, they would have been fucking around with tombs and stuff like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What can you tell me about dire wolves?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, that's a whole. A whole thing lately.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

Do you want to get into that?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, I saw it pop up on the news, and it's like, dude, they un. Extincted the direwolf.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I started looking into it, and I was like. They sort of did. I don't understand all the exact genetics and what it actually means to de. Extinct something. So could you just kind of explain what a direwolf is why it made the news. And then what you think is going on.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, it's kind of conspiracy ish. So we can, we can put the hats on.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Let's do it.

[David Ian Howe]

But I think Colossal is going after people for calling them out, which means that they're, they're lying about it. But I. They went on, Rogan talked about it. The guy seems like a chill guy. Ben Lamb, I think. And then the chief scientist went on too. But yeah, they're just genetically modified wolves. They like took some traits from dire wolves that they thought that made them.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What is a direwolf?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, sorry. Well, direwolf is Anocyon deeris is what it's called. It used to be Canis dearest. But it's interesting. We looked at direl skeletons, they look just like wolves. So we would have thought they're just bigger wolves or some kind of species. But genetic research is really goes hand in hand with archeology. And that's only been about the last 10, 20 years. So now you can do genetic testing on all these things. And that's why dogs have kind of popped off too, because now you can understand it better. And dire wolves are an actual like extinct line of canids that were from bone crushing dogs is what they're called. Just giant like bear like dogs that existed way back in like a couple million years ago in the Americas. And that line kind of just all died out except for the dire wolf. But convergent evolution, they look similar. So what Colossal did was just say that they took what those traits would have looked like and took them from some direwolf fossils, injected those and activated that into modern gray wolves and just accentuated some traits. And they're just saying like it's a, it's a Colossal brand. Dire wolf is how I would phrase it interesting.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So because gray wolves are the ones that we wolves that we know and love, the ones that are still running around and those are genetically distinct from the dire wolf that died off and actually went extinct by several million years millions of years ago. So this idea that like, oh, we have like the direwolf as it was known a million years ago, still able to be recreated today, is a pretty compelling story. I mean that's like.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, it's pretty sick. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But it seems like even just from like a couple articles that I read that that might not be exactly the case. But again, I don't know what necessarily makes something like, you know, it's one of those things like if it looks like a direwolf sounds like a Direwolf.

[David Ian Howe]

And that's their phrasing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Then you're basically like, I mean, it's a dire wolf.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

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[David Ian Howe]

So de extinction to them. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No, no, not at all.

[David Ian Howe]

De extinction. And they're the way I think Ben Lamb explained it on Rogan was that. That, you know, if. If it feels or fills the ecological niche and the behavior of that animal on the landscape, and it does it. So putting hair on an Asian elephant and putting it in the tundra then makes it a mammoth to them, but really it's just an Asian elephant with hair. But you could argue is a mammoth just an elephant with hair because they're the same kind of species.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right. I can see where it's kind of like a semantics thing. And if you're like a, you know, like a genetic purist, you're like, no, it has to be this exact genome and this exact phenotype or whatever other type of technical terminology. And if it's not that, then it's not, you know, a mammoth or it's not a direwolf. Whereas they would be like, well, if it's doing all the things and it looks the exact same and it hunts the exact same way, then it is.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So I can understand where the kind of gray comes from.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Fully agree. The gray wolf in it, it's. It's that essentially. And it's a dire. It's a. A. Sorry, it's a gray wolf that has what they said looked like dire wolves and that they're supposed to act like direwolves. But direwolves, to my knowledge, lived more in, like, the lowlands and hunted larger game in. In north and South America, I think maybe just North America, but hunted larger game like bison and things like that. Bison antiquus was the ancient bison that lived here, whereas they died out because gray wolves are more adaptable to higher latitudes and climates, and they could scavenge kind of like human camps and things like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, interesting. They can move around a little more.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So with the changing climate and humans get to the Americas and start everything up.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

More adaptable there.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Gray wolves survived, direwolves died out. But they would have Clovis. People would have interacted with direwolves for sure. And I think because of that, in Game of thrones, obviously George R.R. martin's a huge donor to the company. Was he really? Yeah. And I looked up, like, how we donated, it's through his like, Native American charity or something. Like, I looked up all the authors in the paper. It's very interesting. They might come kill me after this.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But sick of dire wolf on it. They're like, shut be like, oh, this isn't a dire wolf mother.

[David Ian Howe]

If they want to pay me to come see it, I'll call it direwolf all day. But, but yeah, they, it's just so interesting because it, it came out and as a scientist, like watching this stuff pan out and I read the paper, I know someone on the paper, I'm like texting about it and stuff. The new, like ABC News, Fox News, fucking ESPN even came out saying like the same exact phrasing of it's this. So really what it boils down to, I think they want to do more de extinction stuff like this. The direwolf is catchy, trendy. You can watch the wolf pups grow up. It's in a brilliant marketing campaign. Right. Whatever they're doing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

There's also a media thing that happens, I think, with where, like, media and science converge that, like, you'll have like a very nuanced paper from, like a very prestigious, you know, research lab that's like, you know, we discovered a potential cure for this bizarre growth that happens in some humans. And then the news will be like, scientists cure cancer.

[David Ian Howe]

Exactly.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And you're like, all right, well, that's not what we said. We said that potentially, like, there's a ton of nuance within the scientific language that goes on in these papers that then the media just jumps on and runs with a narrative that sounds, you know, catchy and clickable. So it's difficult to know exactly like, where the onus lies. As someone like me, that's just a casual dude that likes, you know, sick ass dogs with no pun intended. I have no dog in the fight, but I am kind of like stoked that these guys are making sick animals, you know?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I mean, I, I, here's the thing. If a mammoth comes out, I will want to see it. I will want to throw something into it.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

I want, yeah, they have to stop me.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

But like, is it a mammoth or just an Asian elephant with hair. I don't know. But it turns into semantics of species. And Ben Lamb on Rogan did bring this up, and this is a point I argue. Aristotle argued it, Linnaeus argued it. And like all scientists today will argue, we don't know what species is. It's just like. And this is what they're using as the definition of it, which I agree with. But, like, how much more dog is your dog than a wolf? Or how much more dog is your dog than whatever comes after? So how much more human am I than Neanderthal? And you can test that with DNA and, like, I might have more Neanderthal DNA than someone down the block.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I definitely have a ton.

[David Ian Howe]

You think so?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Dude, look at my eyebrows.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. I mean, solid enough. Yeah, you got the hair. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Dude, look up, look up. The Geico Caveman. Like, that's just the picture of me on the thumbnail of this video.

[David Ian Howe]

I thought that was the coolest commercial as a kid. I was like, I want to be that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's just me. You know what I mean? So. Oh, yeah, dude, just right type.

[David Ian Howe]

Get that shirt on.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, look at the eyebrows. So, like, I definitely have some Neanderthal cooking in there, for sure.

[David Ian Howe]

Hell, yeah. And you're French, right? So you got probably quite a bit. They lived in France, stuff like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, did they really?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, all over the place. Oh, hell yeah. I mean, all over France, I should say, dude.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, I definitely got that. That is which I've actually read. And by red, I mean, my friend told me one time in a sauna that different human beings have different brow structures depending on, like, what they were doing within their immediate sort of, like, ecosystem. So, like, if you had a brow ridge that came out farther, it was more indicative of, like, like you were hunting larger game or something like that. That and that, like, sweat would go down the brow better. It would help you see in the sunlight. Like, obviously we know, like. Like, you know, Eastern folks that people that were, like, walking across, like, tundra of, like, snow.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Would get, like, smaller eyes because they were able to deal with the reflection off the snow. Stuff like that.

[David Ian Howe]

I've heard that before. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And so, like, the brow structure applies to kind of everyone in certain ways. This is what my friend said.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I don't know if those are Shane Gillis. Dude, I wish that. I don't know. I do know that, like, the leading theory. So all this stuff's kind of just like hypoth, which is no instruct instruction book to humans unless you believe the Torah there's like the Quran. But your eyebrows, you're Jewish. Yeah, yeah. I. I don't think there's A section Leviticus 4 says about the brow. But yeah, the. The eyebrows and like, the way it blocks your son in the sweat. That is like a leading theory on it. But whether that's regionally varied if you're Korean versus French, I don't know.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

There is very. A staunch difference between Korean eyes and. And, you know, Caucasian eyes, I guess. But. Right. Was that for snow? And I also saw, like, the pagodas are, like, wider, whereas, like, the Parthenon has, like, taller, you know, pillar, like, things. And then like, in Asian society, they wear like, the horizontal lined shirt where we have, like, neckties. And I saw someone try to convince that was like, food with their eyes. And I don't know about that. Dude, you're getting into some dicey topics.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But, bro, that's so funny. Dude, pull up a pagoda.

[David Ian Howe]

And I was all hyped about it too. And I, like, told my TA in college and I was like, dude, check this out.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And he would just like, that's so funny.

[David Ian Howe]

But yeah, see, it's horizontal.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But, dude, that's hilarious. You're like, yeah, dude, these. These dudes were in. Were in letterbox.

[David Ian Howe]

But in reality, dude, they were on.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They were on wide screen. They were cinema versions. You know what I mean?

[David Ian Howe]

That's really funny.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's so wild.

[David Ian Howe]

But whether that has to do with just people in that area of the world that have that eye fold on their eye are banging each other more than banging people without it. That's just going to exacerbate. I don't think that it influences how you. You build structures.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, probably not, because it's the funniest thing.

[David Ian Howe]

The Egyptians would have had, like, triangular eyes.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I guess maybe they did. They pull up. Pull up. Agnoton. We gotta see.

[David Ian Howe]

Pull up a mummy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, some Pinterest. I mean, kind of. Dude, the mummy. I mean, that one's kind of triangular. You know what I mean? That's so funny.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, we're on.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Dude, that's kind of triangle, bro. That's kind. That's more triangle than thing on the bottom. That's what I'm saying. All added up. That's more triangle.

[David Ian Howe]

The eye on the back of the dollar. The Illuminati thing. That's a triangle. For real.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

All seeing eyes triangular. They're just Egyptian.

[David Ian Howe]

We just discovered some today.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, my gosh. These are the most scientifically backed racial jokes I've ever heard in my life. I mean, I don't even think anyone can come for us.

[David Ian Howe]

Anthropology is a degree in scientific racism, essentially.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Ye.

[David Ian Howe]

I mean, so it's been said, or at least the buzzfeed articles say something.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's so funny. Okay, can I ask you a few things that my dogs do?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And that I'm sure many people that listen that their dogs do. And like, you know, I think people know I always think about human beings and be like, okay, we're kind of animals, right? Like, we're the, the most not animal of the animals, but we're very still much animals. You know, I mean, we like doing animal stuff.

[David Ian Howe]

I would say my degree is in studying human zoological. Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Which to me is I think, a really productive way to understanding what it actually means to be human. We have this higher consciousness. We're able to philosophize and think of things and have future events and form memories and all this sort of stuff that makes us distinct as human beings. But we are still very much animal. And I think a lot of people neglect the animalism within them. And I think that's probably an enlightenment idea of like, hey, reject everything animalistic and as a result you got some of the like, repressed behaviors and then also sort of behaviors that I think exist maybe outside of the foray of what it means to be human. So for example, like, a lot of Cuberman's work I think goes very much into like, the anthropological sense of what it actually means to be human. Like, hey, go outside.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Be around the sun, stare at it for a few hours, like, work out, like, move your body. Like all these things we would have just done instinct, like instinctively, you know, up to like, you know, 300, 500 years ago that we don't really do today. And as a result, people are depressed and have all sorts of different mental health issues. So I like to think about human beings as animals and be like, okay, are my base animal needs being met on a regular basis? And if, if I'm ever in like a bad spiral, I'm having a. What'd you call it? A torpin, where you're just in a coper.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

If you're in torpor, like, hey, deal with the human stuff first. And like, even when it comes to like raising my baby, I very much went through like, anthropology. Anthropology and like, how do people raise babies for millions of years? And I try to do that, that stuff as much as possible. Like, what do people eat? Like, yeah, don't eat cereal and bread all day. Yeah, that's like a pretty non human way to behave.

[David Ian Howe]

Very new.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's pretty like. I mean, people will be like, no, we've had bread for 8,000 years. It's like, yeah, dude, we've been homo sapiens for at least a hundred thousand. You know what I mean? So we're in the most recent 8% of time that we've been eating this stuff. So all that to say, I'm just always fascinated by stuff humans do. And you're like, oh, there's a reason for it. Anthropologically, dogs are no different. And, you know, maybe even more so because they're more animal than us. So people see their dogs and right before they go to sleep, they, like, go in a big circle and they'll kind of like, walk around and like, kind of.

[David Ian Howe]

Oh, the dogging man. Kumbaya. You know, the dogs walking in a circle.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, they'll walk in a circle before they lay down.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I think a lot of people look at that and they're like, what is that about? Can you explain that?

[David Ian Howe]

That one I just learned the past two years. Or in the past two years. But apparently dogs like to. When they poop, too, they'll kind of walk in a circle. They like to turn and face magnetic north or something like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Whoa.

[David Ian Howe]

And for whatever reason they do it. And like, there was a study that. Yeah, they do somehow are kind of like pigeons are able to determine magnetic north and south. I don't know why they poop in that, like, circle and poop that way or do that when they're sleeping.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's for magnetic north.

[David Ian Howe]

Apparently it might be magnetic east or south or something like that. But it's a magnetic direction.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I thought it was for just flattening grass.

[David Ian Howe]

That's the theory.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I heard it's like. Yeah, they, you know, you circle around flattened grass and stuff. The magnetic version sounds way sicker to me.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. I don't know why they do it. I do know when they. They do the paw thing on the ground. That's. I thought they were trying. Because my dog's, like, retarded when he was. Sorry, can we say that on here?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You're actually required.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay, cool. One. One per thing. He, like, will kick the dirt and where he would miss and not get this shit, like, behind him. But really what they're doing is rubbing their scent on the ground to mark their poop. Kind of has more of a scent than that to me. But for whatever reason, they do that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

And all these little like wolf quirks are still in dogs. Which is like really funny, right?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. What are the quirks? Do you find that like an average person's dog has that's very wolf like.

[David Ian Howe]

I mean just. We're in Williamsburg. There's tons of. I used to live in Park Slope, so I've seen quite a bit of it. But the rescue dog fad, like it's kind of thing like you just have. A lot of dogs have. This is something that not a tinfoil had it. But like people just don't like to talk about it because it's unpolite to say like some dogs just have inherent aggression issues. I think. But I think we'd all be a better place if we just accepted that some dogs just bite some dogs, that's what they're bred to do. And like my dog was very. He kind of went crazy towards the end so I had to put him down. But like he would be just very mouthy and like he explores the world that way. Your kid probably explores the world his mouth quite a bit. I'm not gonna make a Jeffrey Epstein joke. But kids on the island. But it's a very like. That's just how they interact. That's like their utensil or their prehensile tail and hands. They use their mouth. So some dogs are just gonna do that more. And you can't just because there's the whole fad of like you can't say no to your dog or whatever. That kind of parenting style. You sometimes have to say no to your. You can't bite a child. So I think a lot of people try to. I've seen this so much. Some of the craziest people on the Internet are dog people. Yeah. And like force free people or all these different trainers. And like that has merit. It's like I think that's a good way to do it. There's other kinds of training. Two, I think shocking your dog when they do something bad is probably not the best way to go about it. If you don't know what you're doing. Yeah. But all that to say some dogs bite because they're wolves. It's just they're genetically 99.99% of wolves.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And they might not be trying to tear something apart, but the way they interface with the world is through nipping at stuff.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And if there's your hand, a little kid's hand. Whatever. They might nip at it and you'll break skin. You'll hurt the kid, you'll Scare the kid. Potentially. If it's on their face, you could disfigure them in some moderate to severe way. And they might not be trying to murder that thing. Obviously, in some cases, dogs are trying to kill. Kill. But oftentimes they're just trying to understand the world, and they do it with their mouths, and that results in people getting bit.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. And they'll vocalize, too, and growl like, don't come near me. That's like, just dogs being the. The wolf. Social traits, that's still there. So, like, just work around it. And, like, you know, if your dog's gonna be like that, don't bring around kids. Like, I can't train my dog to be better around kids. I just, like, would just. I knew he growled at kids. He was scared of them because they're unpredictable behavior.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right, right.

[David Ian Howe]

Just, you know, best to not bring them around it. So that's a. That's a wolf be. That's more of a deep one, I guess. But in terms of other.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I think that's just a good point in general. I got a friend down in Florida that's a alligator trainer, and he trains gators. And he, like, we'll rescue them. And then, like, if they're.

[David Ian Howe]

Is it Gator Boy Chris?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Gator Boy Chris?

[David Ian Howe]

You know him?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, absolutely.

[David Ian Howe]

We're buds.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No way.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Well, I mean, like, Instagram buds.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. We went down to South Florida and we, like, swam with his gator. I forget the name. It was beautiful. Yeah, baby girl. But he was like, yeah, if you. When you get in the water with the gator, this gator is not aggressive. It was raised in captivity. It won't try to kill you. It's well fed. She's doing great.

[David Ian Howe]

I'll still get a pass.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But if you. He's like, watch this. And, like, the gator will have its mouth open, and he'll just, like, smack the water, and the mouth will just shut. And he's like, the gator's not making a cognitive decision to be like, I'm gonna eat that thing. He's like, it's just in their brain. Like, in the way that, like, you bang on someone's knee and their leg goes forward. Like, you big punch on them and they'll flinch. Like, it's just a reflex that's built into gators. Like, something hits the water, their mouth shuts. So he's like, yeah, just don't be around the gator and do any erratic movements because it might just do gator stuff, which means their mouth shuts. And that's just encoded in their DNA over millions of years. And it's just. What it is, is. And I kind of view dogs in the similar way where, like, yeah, I think there's dogs that are, like, so nice and you can play with them and like, they're, they have never shown any version of aggression at all, but probably with any dog, you could put them in a situation where they're a high stress environment and they're anxious and maybe there's some type of pattern of, you know, sort of like, I don't know, like ownership that's not perfect, where, like, they maybe, like, instill bad behaviors or reinforce negative traits, and that dog could nip at someone. Even the nicest dog in the world could have a bad moment. And I just keep that in mind. Anytime, like, my little baby's near a dog, I'm like, all right, even if you tell me it's the nicest dog in the world, I'll probably just keep my kid away, you know what I mean? Because I just recognize that this is an animal, you know? And like, I know human beings are the same way. It's like, like, if a little kid scares you and like, grabs your ankle, like, you might flick your leg and kick him. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just a reflex.

[David Ian Howe]

Like, if you're awesome power scene, like.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You just might, like, have a startle and like, do something. Something. And like, we don't say like, oh, human beings are just gonna be inherently violent. It's like, no, you just have an animalistic reflex that does something. And dogs have a little bit more of the animalism in them. So therefore they sometimes.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, because they're legitimately animals. So. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I think that's right on the money because there's some. Some dogs are just this where it starts to bug me. Some dogs are very, like, you breed a German shepherd to be obedient. You breed a. A dachshund is meant to, like, like, go into burrows to get badgers out of it and stuff. Or you, you breed a lab to be a family friendly dog.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

You have other dog breeds that were bred to fight. German shepherds, for example, too, are like, bred to protect and their police dogs and stuff. They're going to do that. So you can't just say, like, well, no, that's not going to happen. Like, I had a friend that worked.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

For the U.S. marshal and they would go bust dog fighting rings like in the US and would go to, like, different spots where they were fighting dogs and they were breeding dogs to fight them. And they've been breeding these dogs for like 60 years. And in 60 years, you can get a few generations of dogs in there. You know what I mean?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And as a result, like, they would go rescue these dogs from these dog fighting rings. These dogs are proper victims. Like, they are being like, Michael victims.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Come on, give me something.

[David Ian Howe]

Thank you. Dude, they are stand up sometimes.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

See them on the road. He's being a national. I mean, do you have. You do have dates coming up. I mean, in Nashville at least, right?

[David Ian Howe]

I wish I did. But, yeah, see me at Third coast and Zany's, I guess.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

A lot of dog humor. Yeah, love that. But, yeah, like, they would rescue these dogs and they would be like, yeah, we can't rehouse them because not only were these dogs raised in a violent, high stress environment where they're bred to fight, but it's possible, like, epigenetically, that their offspring will also be prone to aggression because they're literally from a family generationally.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Just born to kill.

[David Ian Howe]

Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's like, yeah, like, it. If you're gonna rehouse these dogs, you need to do it very specifically with.

[David Ian Howe]

Someone who knows what they're doing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like. Like, you can't just put them at the ASPCA and be like, yeah, you know, great with kids.

[David Ian Howe]

Because I've seen some massacres at Prospect Park. Like. Or not massacre, it wasn't bloody, but just like, oh, it gets. Not controlling your dog. Because it's a fad to just get a, you know, a dog from the pound. There's a reason it's there. And this isn't anything to denigrate great, you know, rescuing dogs. I think it's a great thing to do.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I would say probably the vast majority are generally fine.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But there is a chance you're dealing with a dog that could have either a prior history in its life where it was abused and then has aggressive behavior.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Or comes from a lineage of fighting dogs that kill.

[David Ian Howe]

Exactly.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It could happen.

[David Ian Howe]

And to your point, too, a phrase I always try to say too, is it's the breeder, not the breed.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

So, like, you can have amazing German shepherds. I've met many pit bulls who are amazing. Two of the dogs I have been bit by had to be, be, or happen to be pit bulls. I should say. It's not because of the breed by any means. It's just they're from a line that is bred for that or that's just in Them still.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right. And if they're not raised really carefully.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They can have that tendency. And then they also have the strength. You know what I mean?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, there's a lot of, like, little yippee dogs that might bite, but, like, they don't do any damage, you know? I mean.

[David Ian Howe]

No.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Whereas, like, some of the most, well.

[David Ian Howe]

Misbehaved dogs are little ones. Always.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right. Because you don't really jump on you, you know? Whereas, like, if a Doberman wants to get at you, they'll.

[David Ian Howe]

You gotta be careful. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They also just look scary.

[David Ian Howe]

Dobermans are huge, dude.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, like, of the dogs, like, they might not be the biggest, that whatever. But like, you just look at a Doberman, you're like, that will kill you.

[David Ian Howe]

I'm not entirely sure what they were bred for, but I imagine just being scary. Yeah. They just look intimidating.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Don't they look intimidated?

[David Ian Howe]

Like, they're just like bat ears.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, that thing will you up.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I don't know. Like, I. I love, like, Burmese mountain dogs.

[David Ian Howe]

Those are big too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They're massive.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They might be more dangerous. I don't know. They might be. Like, if both of them wanted to kill you, I don't know which one would kill you first, but if you had. If I had to put money on it, be like, dude, that Doberman will. Will body you.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Oh, those guys. Yeah. Then there's the Mongolian, like, wolf protecting dogs, too. They were in the Mongol army.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What?

[David Ian Howe]

But then, yeah, they're pretty sick. Well, Mongolian, Yeah. They, like, are bred to, like, protect the reindeer from wolves. And they just up wolves on the regular.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No way.

[David Ian Howe]

It's like their Tuesday routine.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, shout out to them.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, dude. And their huge. Looks like a lion.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, what an insane life. And they probably love it too, and super love it. Right? Like, I remember seeing, like, huskies, like, mushing, you know, motion people around.

[David Ian Howe]

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I was out in Idaho and I would see him motion, and I remember talking to Dude, I'm like, I feel bad a lot. Little like, seeing these huskies, like, running around, like, pulling people all day. And he was like, I'll be honest, dude, if they weren't mushing, they'd. They'd be. They'd be criminals. He's like, dude, these huskies love. They love to run. They love to get their energy out. Like, they're aggressive. Like, they just like to. They like to go. So he's like, if they were just out in the wild, they'd probably just be running around. That was his.

[David Ian Howe]

The huskies the huskies.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. He's like, dude, as well, love running around in the cult. He's like, that. They're just built for that. They're bred for it. And if you just had a husky, like, you can't have them in your apartment because they just go crazy.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. And they're loud, too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

If you don't run them, they're like.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, they just howl.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, that's. That's one. Why do I get the questions? Why do dogs howl whenever they heal?

[David Ian Howe]

Hear, like, a siren that I think easily can be chalked up to, like, wolves. If you hear wolf pack howling, they'll, like, respond to the other wolf pack or whatever.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Are they talking it.

[David Ian Howe]

They. They might be. They're just, like, saying slurs or whatever.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Or like, are they just, like, trying to be like, yo, I'm over here.

[David Ian Howe]

I think with wolves, it's like you're just signaling your territory if they're in the same pack. I know they, like, howl to just keep in touch. Like a walkie talkie, like, I'm over here kind of thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Wolf territories are fascinating. Can you pull up the map? A map of wolf territories? There's one that I saw specifically on Instagram, like, a few days ago. It's crazy how delineated they are. So, like, I. For. So this was a GPS map of a bunch of different wolves that were tracked by research or somewhere. It's the top left, and I don't even know where this is, but they basically just, like, tag a bunch of wolves and they're like, all right, let's see what they're up to. And so the NSA is just putting our tax dollars to use, just being like, yo, we gotta spawn these. And basically, they stay on their block. Like, they don't.

[David Ian Howe]

Around the line between the green and the purple and the yellow is just piss.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Exactly. But literally, they just, like, the red wolves just track with the red boys, and then the purple wolves just stay up there. The yellow wolves, they just chill in the middle, and they don't go into each other's territory. They're like, yeah, we know where the lines are.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I wonder if that. I mean, that probably has a lot to do with scent, but then I'm.

[David Ian Howe]

Sure most of it.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I'm sure howling probably plays some role as well.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I know, like, barking has regional accents and stuff like that, so I imagine howling does too. But you can tell different howls from other howls or whatever. And I know they're using AI right now to, like, decode WOLF HOWLS in Yellowstone to like analyze their language or whatever. It might not be Yellowstone, but somewhere up in a big park like that. But like using AI to decode how or you know, maybe decode's not the right word. But you just analyze the how and they can kind of determine like this how means like I'm here. This one means get the fuck away. Yeah, AI is pretty wild like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Well, I've heard that they're using AI to figure out that said birds baby talk. Have you heard this?

[David Ian Howe]

No, I have not heard that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Search Birds baby talking AI. I hope this is real. It's just a video of a bird being like, I love you, you're so cute. No, it's like they. Apparently they will like mother birds will like chirp in a distinct way to their young that is reminiscent. They call it like baby talking. But like the way like an adult human would talk to a baby. Like they immediately like raise their intonation. Like they'll use like smaller words. And apparently birds do the same thing. Huh. Don't take out the AI part actually. But apparently that's like a behavior that birds do that they didn't realize till they were tracking it. Like using like basically like AI pattern recognition. Being like, oh yeah. Every time they talk to each other it's this type of intonation. Then when they talk to their young, it's a different intonation.

[David Ian Howe]

Interesting.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Fast. I don't know why or what that is, but it is fascinating. It's not going to be a video, it'll be an article.

[David Ian Howe]

Cool.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But from science.org I mean, they're not gonna lie to us, right?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, maybe not. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Male birds use a version of baby talk to teach chicks songs. If that's not the cutest shit you've.

[David Ian Howe]

Ever heard in your life, that is pretty cute, dude. Right? I know humans baby talk dogs for the same reason. It's just like. Or maybe not the same reason, but it's like the thing in your brain. Like when you see your kids, that same response is when you see a little puppy like that protecting and neoteny is the word but like it. You baby talk dogs and it's an anthropologist called it mother ease. The way you talk to it. Like like that kind of thing. Like I do that in involuntarily, right?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No, I do though. I do that to my short friends. You know, I do it. I do it all the time.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, it's kind of bad is Akash.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I do it to all of them. I do it to everyone. I do it the little babies. I do it to dogs. Dogs. I have another, another question. I don't know if you can answer this.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, sure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Zoomies. You ever be chilling with your dog and then just out of nowhere he just starts going buck wild, running around just zero.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What is that about? Any idea?

[David Ian Howe]

My, no scientific idea on that one. Just I think dogs just get happy and excited. Like all animals seem to. I know chimpanzees can experience like awe, but they'll see a waterfall and like freak the out and like splash the water and like dance.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's what I. Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

When you see a waterfall.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. For real. Like you ever see something so awesome you're like dude, it's crazy.

[David Ian Howe]

And it's like sometimes the hair stands up on your skin or whatever. You see a cool scene in the movie.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

The end of Lord of the Rings. But like chimps somehow feel that same. I guess awe is the word.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

But they do that. But I think in the same sense we can boil that down. If chimps are doing that. My scientific opinion, not that it's fact, would be that dogs can experience joy and happiness and they're just trying to get it out in that sense because you can see. I've never, I should caveat all of this where this camera. I've never like hung out with wolves in the ice age, but like I'd imagine like you like when I'm watching videos of wolves at a wolf sanctuary or like in Yellowstone, they do have these like quirks and little behaviors and they all have personalities and stuff like that right where they're playing and they, you know, they're happy, they are angry kind of stuff like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. I might be putting too much person.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

On them, but, but another political question.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You think kibble, Kamala? Yeah, not Kamala. Kibble. You think kibble is, should I say, inhumane.

[David Ian Howe]

I just talked about, my aunt's a vet. I was just with her yesterday, but I was talking about this with her basically like as a vet. A lot of people think vets are trying to just make money off of you and give you the highest grade stuff. But she was like, I know farmer's dog is expensive, I know this stuff. But it is healthier for dogs to not eat kibble. And she hates telling like her clients like you have to pay for this prescription dog food but like you're just condensing slop down into baked kibble form. That's just not what they're supposed to be eating. And not that she's an Advocate for a raw diet or anything like that. But it's just like, you wouldn't want to eat the same bland food every day. And your dog can experience depression, bloating, gluten for the same thing, right? Yeah. And I do know there's. I don't know what the gene is, but there is a type of gene that dogs have developed that essentially makes them trash compactors. They can, like, eat whatever humans eat, and it doesn't hurt them like another animal. Like, obviously garlic and grapes are still poisonous to dogs in, like, a, I think, diarrhea sense. But, like, they can kind of eat anything. And dogs, a lot of times eat human shit. So anything that humans are. And you can look at that archeologically, too, with looking at their isotopes, you can see what dogs are eating and by proxy, what people are eating in the past. But it seems they'll eat anything but to eat the same kibble baked down and condensed into this bland shit every day. Especially a dog that lives here in the city. Actually, we're supposed to be in the woods.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, we're in the woods.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. We're in the middle of Central Park. Like a dog that doesn't get out much, that doesn't have much of a stimulation kind of life. Eating the same food every day would make you depressed.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Exactly.

[David Ian Howe]

Depressed. And my aunt kind of phrased it that way. That's a good point.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

My wife feeds our cat, like, raw sardines every night.

[David Ian Howe]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I remember when I first. Like when we first moved in together, she had this cat and starts. It's not my. I'm like a stepdad to the cat. Sure. But we're cool. Like, we're not. It's not like, tense or anything.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But she'll feed the cat, like, raw sardines. I'm like, what? What is that? She's like, well, I just think it's wrong to feed them this baked little crunchy thing, you know? She's like, think about how animals evolved for millions of years. Like, they go out and eat and they hunt, and if you want them to be happy and prosperous, like, feed them stuff they've been eating forever. She's like, do you like to eat bread all day? I'm like, no, I feel terrible. If I'm only eating bread all day, I legit and get depressed.

[David Ian Howe]

I think it's the bagel I had earlier that's with my head right now.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Imagine you only ate bagels forever. You'd feel terrible.

[David Ian Howe]

Oh, dude. I'd be much more Jewish.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But it's true, dude. Maybe that's what it is. All my Jewish friends with, like, like, you know, sinus issues and they have allergies. I'm like, dude, it's all the bagels.

[David Ian Howe]

It's just the. Yeah, it's inflammation. Pure gluten.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But I'm like, It makes sense though, right? Like, I. I think we should probably be eating more what we've been eating for the majority of time that we've been on the planet. And I won't feel like other animals are the same way.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You know, again, I'm not someone out here being like, yeah, buy, you know, 150 dog food.

[David Ian Howe]

Right.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like, maybe throw in like a, you know, some chicken nuggets every now and again.

[David Ian Howe]

Something, you know, something with meat that's not just kibble. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's just a thing I never really thought about until my wife brought up and I was like, oh, that's fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, makes sense to me.

[David Ian Howe]

My cat ate tuna a lot. I never tried sardines, but it is.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Funny because the first time we gave the cat sardines, they're like human grade sardines. She just buys them from Whole Foods.

[David Ian Howe]

They're just King Oscar brand or whatever.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Just like in a can. Yeah. And she was like, do you want to try it? I was like, like, that's cat food. She's like, no, it's not. It's human. I just give it to the cat.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I was like, all right, fine, I'll try it. So, like, I got a fork and, like, fed the cat her sardine, and then I got a different fork for me. And she's like, why'd you switch the forks? And I was like, because that's the cat's fork.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I don't know. It just got so in my head. I was like, no, this is the cat's fork. That's the cat sardine. This is the human sardine. And they're different.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And I think that's just my human ego being like, dude, you can't eat what cats eat.

[David Ian Howe]

I'm the same way. Like, I'll wash my hands between feeding the dogs and feeding me, but it really. It's all the same.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You know?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Have you tried sardines yourself? Well, you just did.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. And like, out of the can, they're fine.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Go to a nice Italian restaurant and try them there. They cut you up a little salad. Throw some dinies in there. You're kind of having it. You're feasting them.

[David Ian Howe]

Nice. I used them when I was, like, doing field work. And it's actually pretty good when you're really hungry. Dude.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

A little canned mackerel. That's where they get the mackerel. Canned mackerel actually slap labs.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And they come in a can. Like, I could prep. I could. I could live out there. Okay. Why do dogs sniff each other's butts?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So there's like. I don't know who explained this to me or if I came up with it myself, but there's a. I think someone explained to me. But the. The way wolves or dogs see the world, like, it's through their nose or whatever. Do we get the mirror test stuff in it?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's called mirror.

[David Ian Howe]

Or I can go back to the mirror test and talk about it if we didn't.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, let's just take it from. From the mirror test. What? It's mirror. Like.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, like looking in a mirror.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, right.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So the mirror test is essentially, it's a. It's a test of sentience in an animal. So a. Like, primates can see it, the orangutan can see it, and it's like they'll put the red marker on its face and it can see that in the mirror and it knows, like, oh, this is me in the mirror. Elephants can do it, magpies can do it, dolphins can do it. But for a while, they weren't sure if dogs or cats could do it because when they look in a mirror, they don't see it.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Sometimes they get aggressive.

[David Ian Howe]

They do. Cats will, like, do that little Halloween cat thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

For whatever reason, no one thought, like, oh, they used smell to see their world. So they did that. And you can. A dog can test its own or understand its own scent. And not that it's like, I think, therefore I am in that it can pass the act, but it can. You know, it understands this is me versus a different dog.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

And it can't exactly see itself in the mirror. My dog never cared.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But it can smell itself in the smelling mirror, so to speak.

[David Ian Howe]

So to answer your. Your butthole question, dogs, when they see a person, like, if you think of how hot and smelly your armpits are and your crotch is. Why dogs love crotches too. Yeah. Yeah. It's gross. Shout out, you know, Squatch, or whatever you're. But they basically, there's like a cloud, kind of like those wolf heat maps you were just looking at, like a cloud of gas hanging out here that they either can see or they just sense it. And they want to go right for that. That. So when you see another dog sniff another dog's or, like a human's crotch or something, there's probably like, a cloud of, like. Like a video game scent trail.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

Chilling right there. And it's just saying, like, come sniff me.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

So dogs do that. And I was just walking here today, and I saw, like, a cat or. Sorry, I saw a dog sniff another dog's, like, wiener.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

Or whatever you want to call it. Hog. And it does same thing. It just. It starts wagging its tail.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So it's not necessarily butthole. It's just like. Like, scent area.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. I think his butthole is the most readily available. You don't have to, like, dip your nose down, too.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's where. That's where your sort of, like, smell signature is. Yeah, but they would settle for, like, a dog wiener. They'd be like. That would basically give them what they needed.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, I saw it today. Like, it's the urine scent. And the. The scent also marks. You know, it's a unique identifying trait to different dogs.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

So they. They're like QR code, I guess, or something. Yeah, something like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Also, this, like, seeing a dog track ascent is one of the most fascinating things in the world. Could you pull up, like. Like, dog scent cone? So I. I'm sure you know this, but I just saw it for the first time because I, like. I don't know, growing up, I never had dogs that played fetch. But now my sister has a dog that loves playing fetch. And this dog is so good at finding this ball. It's fascinating. But literally, it's like. It'll be the scent cone. So, like, could you go to, like, the bottom left or, like, the middle left? That one right there. No, on the left side. Yeah, that one. Like, literally, we'll throw the ball in the yard, and the tiny little tennis ball lost in the grass, and this little dumb dog will just track back and forth in, like, a cone, basically just going from where they started going, like, like, all the way up. And we'll find the ball every single time. And basically to the idea that they are creating a map of the world through, like, this conical scent shape that they interface with everything with, and they're able to track stuff down in a remarkable way. We even had a. We had, like, a canine trainer come to my school when I was a kid, did, and did this thing where he threw a quarter in the middle of the football field. And the German shepherd found the quarter so far away amongst a Bunch of other stuff that he just threw out there. And was able to find this specific quarter. Be like, hey, sniff this, Throw it. Wait like a five minute presentation. And it was like, get. And then found the quarter. Immediately I was like, that is just so fascinating. But literally was using that same conical, like, tracking shape to find it.

[David Ian Howe]

I had no idea it was a cone structure.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

My dad told me that. And normally your dad tells you some shit and you're like, come on. Yeah. But he was like, no, it's a cone. I looked it up and like, you can see, like, you can look at the way they're tracking. It's literally a cone. It's fascinating, huh? Okay, I have a couple other ones. Yeah. Dogs eating grass. You know what that's about?

[David Ian Howe]

From the veterinary standpoint? I can't say professionally, but I'll look at the camera. But the. In terms of, like, I think it start. It stops their. Like they have an acidic problem in their stomach or they have an upset stomach. They know chewing grass for whatever reason or eating grass like, like fills their stomach up quicker or something like that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Pacifies their, like the acidic stomach pain.

[David Ian Howe]

Whether it's like a Pepto like effect or if it's like a. It just. They want to eat something that makes their stop, you know, feeling sick. I'm not sure. But I do know it has something to do with that because it's when their stomach starts to feel bad, they'll eat grass.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Well, on that same topic, you mentioned this briefly before. Dogs, as we know through domestication, come as like, scavengers.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They're eating kind of random stuff out in the woods, but for some reason, there's certain things that they just can't eat. And chocolate, I'll give them a pass. You know, I mean, chocolate probably didn't exist in the way we have it now. Maybe the Central Americans were making a brew out of it. You know, they had some type of chocolate drink. Sure did.

[David Ian Howe]

A bunch. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But I'm like, dogs couldn't eat that. Like, they were, you know, they were chilling with them way back when. Grapes, garlic. I'm like, why is there just all of a sudden just like, some. Stop. If these things are like the ultimate scavengers that can just cohabitate with humans, eat all of our scraps forever except two random things.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, it's like chocolate, grapes, garlic, onions. I think they can't have.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It just seems strange to me. I'm like, why is that where you guys. You'll eat shit, you'll eat actual Human?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Then you offer them a delicious grape Napa Valley and they're like, I can't eat that. What am I, a dog?

[David Ian Howe]

I mean, white grapes. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's crazy.

[David Ian Howe]

I don't know. That's a good question. I think there's just some things they can't digest, like any other creature. Like we can't have, I guess, cyanide or something or that's more of an extreme. But like, I don't think some humans, you can't like directly eat poison ivy. It's poisonous to us.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

Some people it's. You must have tried. Yeah, I guess other things like that. It might be other people, you know, peanuts are. Some people are allergic or whatever. It's probably the, the plant's response to, you know, some kind of animal eating it is probably what, allergies.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Maybe they're getting eaten so much that the grapes were like. Yeah, back up.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. I don't know why it would just affect dogs. That's a good question.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Fascinating to me. Oh, gifting dead animals. Cats mostly do that, but apparently some dogs do.

[David Ian Howe]

That's what fetch comes from, I think.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No way.

[David Ian Howe]

I think it's a dog going out to retrieve something and bring it back.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. That makes so much sense, actually, even now that I'm saying it, I'm like, yeah, duh. It's like literally retrievers.

[David Ian Howe]

It hit me one day too with the same thing. I was like, oh, yeah, that's what that is. And I looked it up and it does seem to have some scientific basis.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Okay.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I wonder what other ones we got in here. Let's see. Oh, I mean, there's just like little things I kind of know, like belly rubbing. It's just like a sign of like passivity or kind of like submission.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, that's a wolf thing for sure. They'll lay on their back in a submissive sense. And I think that's pretty cross culturally, wolves or cross world. It's not just like certain groups of them. You lay on your back, I guess, showing your, you know, your. Your vulnerable parts, it means you're submissive. Things like that. But I don't know if that's like a, like specifically why, like a belly rub makes them happy. But I think just like any animal, like when you pet it. I've seen someone pet a squirrel, like a wild one, and it was, it was stoked on it. Yeah, yeah, I know.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

These are dog psychology questions which are a little bit out of your purview.

[David Ian Howe]

Totally fine.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I Do find them very fun. One thing that I've asked people that I always get mixed for answers on showing teeth. So some people be like, oh yeah, it's a sign of aggression. You know what I mean? Like you show your teeth, you growl, you show your big fangs, you show them. Hey, don't with me. I mean it's like you pull up your, your shirt, be like, yeah, I'm strapped.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But then other people are like, no, no, it's a sign of submission and that dogs will show their teeth to be like, yo, like you got me.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. So like which is it in humans? It's cultural. I, I know chimps show their teeth. I think most chimp tribes will show their teeth as a, a sign of submission. But gorillas also show their teeth to be aggressive. I think it just depends on the like how the lip is folded or something like that. But like if you look at like when Americans take pictures and around the world on vacation, they smile. Slavs and like Russian people just.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Just squatting.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. The cigs in their mouth. But they don't, they don't do much with that. Like at least, you know, there's probably Russians that do smile.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Never seen it.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. But never heard of it. In terms of dogs, I'm not entirely sure. I've seen some dogs smile like a Australian shepherd, I've seen smile and like show its teeth in like a happy way. Like a wagon. Its tail, my friend would come home, it would be all stiked. But other dogs showing their teeth is definitely like a please back off kind of thing. It's. And wolves do it all the time.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Interesting.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Dude. My brother in law was telling me something that, that dogs when they're too inbred can get mental health issues.

[David Ian Howe]

It seems to be the case with any living organism.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You would think, right?

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But then dogs are so like a purebred dog. You're basically just being like, oh, that's the most inbred dog that there is. You know what I mean? So like I have like, is there any type of like, you know from like the anthropological sense? Like. Oh yeah. If you just like, if dogs are banging each other too much, they get crazy. Like to me that would track. That would seem obvious. But yet we're making these perfect dogs that, that I guess were never meant to exist in the first place. But then somehow they're purebred just because they're the most literally inbred. Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

I mean domestication syndrome in itself. When you're breeding a dog constantly or an animal constantly to be more docile and into its, you know, domestic form. There's a lot of inbreeding going on there, I imagine, and there must be.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Adverse effects, you know what I mean? Like, teeth crowding, I'm sure has some.

[David Ian Howe]

Type of issues, teeth crowding, especially with like the. The more modern breeds, like the long wiener dogs always have spinal issues. Pugs can't, like, breathe.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, I think like, bulldogs can't be born naturally, really.

[David Ian Howe]

You have to like, pull them out.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Can you Google that? Like, yeah, I think like, like the. I forget exactly what it is. My wife's a midwife. She's going to be so mad I forgot this term. But basically, like the cranium to pelvis ratio is just scientifically and biologically impossible or something like that.

[David Ian Howe]

That is crazy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Okay, Most modern bulldogs cannot be born naturalist. They're mostly done C section, which is hilarious. Dude, you gotta take em out the moonroof. That's wild.

[David Ian Howe]

I'd never heard it called that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, dude, but yeah, apparently 90% of English bulldogs are born C section, which just seems like, dude, at a certain point, again, I think bulldogs are so cute. But it's like, yeah, it's getting a little wild.

[David Ian Howe]

I had a bio professor in grad school kind of explain, with human evolution, our heads are so fucking big and you basically need a midwife, you need a hospital sometimes to have children, right? That, like, if the walking dead or something like that ever happened, there's just going to be a huge bottleneck in human population because you can't. Like, it. It kills people. Like it killed people for centuries before.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Dude, I talked to. There's a great book I talk about all the time on this very program. It's called Our Babies Ourselves by Meredith Small. She's an anthropologist out of. I think she was at Cornell for a while. She's retired now. But she's wonderful. And she basically wrote this book in the 80s, which is like, for a long time within, like, sort of like the scientific granola kind of crunchy community is like, like the opus of like how to raise your kids. And I loved it. It was so good. But she talks about like, encephalization of human beings and that like human beings prior to being Homo sapiens would gestate for like 12 to 13 months.

[David Ian Howe]

Really?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Or something like that.

[David Ian Howe]

I didn't know that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And because our brains got so big, because we got smarter and our pelvises didn't necessarily get big in kind, we're born, all of us premature at nine months and so she points out all this interesting research. We're like. Like, we're born at nine months. Basically completely, like, feudal. Like, we can't do anything. Like, we're completely incapacitated. And then right around three months, there's a massive leap in cognition. And she suggests that, like, that is the time that we're probably supposed to be born or like, other hominids were born at. And as a result, like, there's a huge leap in, like, their ability to, like, move in order to, like, you know, like, like feeding, like, all the things you would need for survival. And her theory is basically just like, all human beings are born premature because of encephalization because our brains got bigger, likely due to, like, you know, agriculture and, you know, like, better nutrition, stuff like that.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Like that brain gut flywheel thing. You know what I mean? Like, as food got easier to digest, like, our brains get bigger.

[David Ian Howe]

Right. Definitely.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's impossible. Like, it's. Having a kid is, like, so dangerous.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Which is interesting because that also goes back to, like, like, religious philosophy that, like, you would, like, read, like, the Garden of Eden story. Every Abrahamic religion. The punishment that is ascribed to Adam for eating of the fruit of knowledge, of good and evil, basically gaining consciousness is that he has to toil in the field. He has to do work. He has to basically work the earth. Agriculture and women's burden is that they have to have painful childbirth.

[David Ian Howe]

Crazy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Which is effectively encephalization. The brain grows growth that causes abnormally painful childbirth. Potentially some people say more painful than other animals and more dangerous, also because of consciousness.

[David Ian Howe]

That's crazy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I didn't know that fascinating kind of idea of how mythos of early religions ties into our actual biology and anthropology. The punishments given to them is basically their fault for gaining consciousness and sentience in some type of form. Normal.

[David Ian Howe]

That's wild, man.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

In Aztec.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

The Bible's true, is what I'm saying.

[David Ian Howe]

The Aztec pantheon mythology, too. Like, if you die as a warrior or in battle, you go live with the sun God, which of the Pochli. But also if you die giving birth, because they consider that a form of warfare.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Whoa.

[David Ian Howe]

Because, like, it's just so harrowing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, it is. I mean, I saw. I saw my wife give birth to our baby in our apartment.

[David Ian Howe]

Wasn't your apartment?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Ian Howe]

That's wild.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Everyone's always, like, on purpose. It wasn't like, a timing issue and. No, not a tub. I mean, that tubs are, like, not atypical. But my wife, for whatever reason, was Like, I don't want to do a tub. Sometimes tubs can actually be tough because they actually slow down birth because, like, you don't have gravity actually pushing on the. On the cervix as it would, you know, without a tub.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Russians use ice baths.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, probably something like that.

[David Ian Howe]

That's a.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's an actual thing some people do what they call. I forget what it's called. It's like, free birthing or something. Something where they try to have babies in, like, the ocean. Whoa. And then, like, anthropologists would be like, that's never how people do. That's, like, so dangerous. Like, don't do that. And they're like, no, that's how. That's how the Native Americans did it. And people are like, that's not good. Don't. Don't do that.

[David Ian Howe]

That's wild, dude.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But some people do it. I mean. Yeah, exactly. White girls with dreads are known for having babies in the ocean.

[David Ian Howe]

That would be the demographic I would pick.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, exactly. That's actually where white people come from. It's just on the sandy shores of Malibu.

[David Ian Howe]

I was born from the sea.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Exactly. But it's an interesting idea that, like, you know, we had our baby in our apartment, and I saw the sacrifice my wife went through to, like, bring humanity forward and, like, put more human beings on the Earth. I was like, this is a battle. I was just, like, so impressed. I was just like, dude, y'. All. You guys got it. You know what I mean? There's, like, so much more parity in our relationship. Like. Like, any dude that thinks that, like, women have it easy, I'm like, just watch them have natural birthday, and immediately you'll be like, thank God I'm a guy, you know? We got such the better end of the deal. I got to go out in the field and, like, pick up stuff. That's so much better than having a baby.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. 100, 110. I don't. I don't think someone explained it. Like, you'd have a golf ball going through your, like, dick, and dude, couldn't do it right now. I'm just like, nope. I'd rather.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's remarkable.

[David Ian Howe]

I'd rather have torpor in a cave.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Exactly.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, well, anyway, David, this has been fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, man.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Thank you so much, brother. I really appreciate the time. I feel like I learned very much, much. Yeah. Unfortunately, the biggest takeaway is that. Wombats. Pooping cubes.

[David Ian Howe]

Wombats.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Of all the work and research and school that you've gone to, the thing that I'M never gonna forget is that. But thank you so much, man. Where can people find you? If people want to learn more about.

[David Ian Howe]

This fascinating stuff, blow your mind with one more thing real quick. There we go. Yes. I got you this. Oh, I totally forgot. You're good. I meant to bring this up, but I ran to the bathroom. This is a. Called a level up point. It's a L, E V, a L. It's some French shit. But this is a Neanderthal. I made this. But a Neanderthal made it. Could make this thing. And if you look at it, it's sharp on all three sides. It's like triangular. So what Neanderthals would do is take a piece of rock and bash it in certain, you know, strategic float napping in strategic ways where they would make it, you know, know. Rather than a human who takes something and reduces it all the way down and basically carves it out of rock into like a shape they want. Neanderthals knew in the middle of the rock is a perfect flake like that they could use as a spearhead or a knife for whatever reason. And they would like waste half the rock to get to just that. And they use some of the other stuff too. But one thing I always tell people when you know about anthropology is like a non human made that. So you really have to think like. Like what were they? How intelligent were they? Because if I handed you a rock or Donnie did, you wouldn't.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I wouldn't know what to do. I'm dumber than a Neanderthal. That should be a Jeff Foxworthy show. Like, are you smarter than Neanderthal? That would be fire.

[David Ian Howe]

That's a pretty good show.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And the answer is probably not.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, no. And that's.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I would need a long time out there to figure this out.

[David Ian Howe]

They would strap it to a stick and like, it seems they only use thrusting spears on like rhinos and mammoths. For whatever reason, they also loved eating turtles.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Turtles.

[David Ian Howe]

Not sure why. Just easy enough to get, I guess.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, I mean, they're traditionally slow. Yeah, I've heard the stories.

[David Ian Howe]

I like turtles, but there's that. So they. I just always try to tell people, like, that's how Neanderthal, a non human made that tool.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I think about Homo florensis in that way.

[David Ian Howe]

Like the little guy.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. They were seafaring, I think.

[David Ian Howe]

I think they might have walked through a land bridge, but at some point they would have had to hop on a little boat.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I think that's what someone told me. I forget who it was. Can you search Homo florenzis this seafaring. But the idea that like these little dudes of the. I mean, related to us in some capacity. You know what I mean? Some type of genetic cousin or something.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Can you pull up an image?

[David Ian Howe]

They're like a mutant Homo erectus. I think all humans are mutant Homo erectus at this point. But this is like a very small island version of a search like tools.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You know, Gabe's horny ass almost clicked on the naked freak.

[David Ian Howe]

The Homo floresia. See?

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Oh, come on, show me a tool, dude. Some. I had an anthropologist here that showed me some of their tools, but they had fascinating tools. And I think she had said, like, can you search boat? I mean, you're also.

[David Ian Howe]

Homo erectus may have had boats getting to Australia or parts of island Southeast Asia.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I mean, Gabe does have a spelled. I'm not going to call him out for that. You know, none of that happens at all.

[David Ian Howe]

It's.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

We all have our days. But no, the idea that Homo erectus might have had boats like other non Homo sapiens could sail. They could make some type of little skiff. Sure, I'll take that. Why not, right? I mean, that support. That supports my theory. Why not? Yeah. I mean, dude, I mean, if we're just bullshitting, like, yeah, I'm right.

[David Ian Howe]

They just made a galleon.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Exactly.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But the idea that like, I don't know how to build a boat, like I could maybe figure it out, put some pieces together, something. But like the idea of the. That non human beings had the intelligence to build stuff. I think so often in modernity we look at ancient peoples. Ancient Homo sapiens were like, oh, they're dumb.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And ancient non human hominids. And we're like, they're even dumber. Like they were just like grunting, running around caves. It's like, sure, if you go far enough back. But there is a little interim period where they're developing tools. They're like making like art in some capacities. It's fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

It. Yeah. I mean, it technically is artistic. And you gotta. You gotta imagine and think of that thing inside of the rock to get there.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

Which is also, you know, I don't know if dogs can do that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Of course. Spatial reasoning and like awareness.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, spatial. That'd be a good way to put it.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's also a little dumb that they're like cutting off like perfectly good, you know, arrowheads.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

To get to the middle part.

[David Ian Howe]

Just like a little wasteful.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's like. Yeah, dude. Well, you broke off 50 of these to get one of these. Yeah, I can see why y' all buy that out.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, we just banged him to death.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But these are.

[David Ian Howe]

These are all for you. But that's just a regular.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, thank you.

[David Ian Howe]

Stone tool I made.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

What is this one made out of?

[David Ian Howe]

That is Georgetown flint from Texas. Just a regular spearhead point or atlatl dart. And then this my friend made it broke in the plane, unfortunately, in my backpack, the top of it. But that's a Clovis point. That's like.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

They let you on the plane with us?

[David Ian Howe]

Yes, as of now. We'll find out when I get back. But that's the tool that like Homo sapiens that got to the Americas would have used like, you know, modern humans. The mammoth hunters that came through Beringia probably had dogs. Not sure yet. There's no genetic. There's no archeological evidence of it yet. But the early, you know, Paleo Americans, Paleo Indians that got here used that tool. And it has a distinct flute on the bottom. It's like that little channel. So they would get all the way down and like make this huge tool, get down to this thing. It's very thin. And then take this very risky hit on the end to knock that channel off. And oftentimes it would just break the point in half. But for whatever reason, it either shows artistic skill, craftsmanship, or maybe it helped socket it onto the spear better.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Right.

[David Ian Howe]

But they all distinctly have that. It's a very uniquely North American tool industry.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Really cool. But yeah, that's like the most sought after point in the black market in the Americas.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Whoa.

[David Ian Howe]

And that one's making made. But that's, I want to say Texas tab chert or something like that. It's a type of flint.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Do you know who would have made this type of thing in terms of indigenous population?

[David Ian Howe]

That is kind of early archaic sized basil notched point. So that would have just been like most of the Plains tribes and the eastern Woodlands tribes would have been making something like that probably seven to 5,000 years ago.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

And I would say indigenous Americans probably had some of the best. People argue, like French flintlappers and stuff in the caves had better stuff. But all around, since these people were in the Stone age till like 1492, essentially. And some people use copper and bronze and stuff, but they're copper, I should say. They just had like thousands of years to perfect being good flint nappers. And it's just like such a cool. I guess the way to phrase that was like without agriculture and like, then metalworking and like, Rome and Greece and all that, that I think most of the world would have lived how they did until, like, you know, 1490s. Yeah. And just the way they adapt to the environment and live to that point.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Of being in the Stone Age. I've read recently that some. I think, like, Central American tribes. I don't remember exactly who. Maybe. Gabe, you can look this up. Were using iron.

[David Ian Howe]

Iron.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Now, let me caveat this, okay. You need tin to make iron. America didn't have tiny. If my. If my memory is serving me.

[David Ian Howe]

Correct.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

So people are like, dude, how is it possible they had iron? Meteoric iron would land in the Americas. Dudes would find it, and they would make wet, like, tools out of meteoric iron.

[David Ian Howe]

I never heard that. That's pretty cool.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Can you Google this? Meteoric iron, Native American or something?

[David Ian Howe]

I know there's, like, copper culture up by the lakes. I think Dan might have talked about that.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh. But, yeah, random meteorite. Iron source for Native Americans. Come on, dude. I mean, this is wild. So they would just find a meteor from. From the gods, from Quetzalcoatl or whoever.

[David Ian Howe]

Whoever. Yeah, the serpent God.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And then they would just start making out of it, and they would, like, there's images of the stuff they actually made. Like, some of it was, like, traditional, like, beading and artwork. And then other. I'm pretty sure it was like. Like potentially weapons. And people don't know if they were actually used or if they were just, like, ceremonial.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah. Because it was so rare.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. But, like, people are like, yeah, dude. They technically had iron.

[David Ian Howe]

Huh.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Big technicality.

[David Ian Howe]

Sure, sure. Not like a whole industry out of it, but, I mean, that's pretty sick.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I don't know if that's it, but all that to say, pretty fascinating.

[David Ian Howe]

Very fascinating. Thanks for having me, dude.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Of course, brother. Thank you so much for these. I mean, can I keep.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I broke in the. In the. In transit, dude.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Not at all. I'm glad you didn't get jammed up in tsm. That.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

But also, they probably let you go through, you know, I mean, they're like, dude, we got hijacked by a Native American.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You know, if that happens, you deserve it.

[David Ian Howe]

Worse people to hijack, I guess, but the French dude.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah. Giant bird.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, man. And then one other thing I want to tell you. You're not to kiss ass by any.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Means, but please do.

[David Ian Howe]

Donnie was like, you should do his pod. I, you know, looked you up and I had seen you on flagrant. I didn't know you had your own thing. You are a very good YouTuber. Like, thank you, brother. In the way.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I appreciate saying that.

[David Ian Howe]

Your style. Yeah, it's just real. Good.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Good.

[David Ian Howe]

And one thing I would love, like, science has a lot of issues, like, with, you know, dogma and, like, how we communicate it. But if I can get more scientists to do, like, YouTuber format types up or even do, like, a lecture as a special, I think it'd be cool. But the way you, you know, present information and I can tell you have a genuine interest in stuff, it's very. It's very cool. So I enjoy doing this.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

I appreciate you saying that, man. No, I mean, I genuinely am inspired and I watch guys like you and people that make scientific YouTube content. And yeah, that's. I absorb and consume a lot of that. And the people that do it really well are like, my favorite and I think are like a. Like a genuine boon for society. The fact that all this information is democratized and people can access it for.

[David Ian Howe]

Free, it's overwhelming, the amount you can get.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

It's remarkable. It's, like, truly amazing. I love that a lot of it is, like, verbal, because my theory, going back to the. On some anthropology vibes, I almost view books as a deviation from, like, the human process of transferring information. You know what I mean? I mean, written language in some form has existed like a few thousand years. You got cuneiform tablets from Sumeria or something. So for most of human history, we've just been transferring information through words, actual interface with human beings, sharing ideas, passing on information to people, asking questions. And then you have books, which is great. But then all the early books are written in dialogues. They're literally written in dialogue. As a podcast.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, kind of.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You know what I mean? It's just a podcast. It's just Plato being like, I said this, this dude said this, and I was like, actually, bro, it's this. And that's just like all these early, like, platonic scribes. And then you have books that kind of, like, just kind of put things into, like, pros. And now we come back to people like you making content on YouTube and Instagram and other people like you that, you know, make interesting videos with actual expertise. And I'm like, oh, we're back, back. You know what I mean? Like, we're back to the way human beings are, like, have always transferred information.

[David Ian Howe]

So. Yeah, that's a good point. And it's all just stems from cave art on the walls and stuff like that. Just saying, like, I was here kind of thing.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Oh, it's also sick. I didn't even realize. That's so far. Oh, I got here. I know we gotta go.

[David Ian Howe]

But this one was made. I had this bone poked into me.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

No way.

[David Ian Howe]

And then this part here was done with stone. Like it wasn't those ones but something similar. And then he smeared it in syphilis on. Oh yeah. I was actually gonna put my dog's ashes in it, but I forgot it was like it. And it was an eight hour session. Just like how painful poking it in? Not painful at all really. Like in terms of the machine, it really buzzes you. But like the bone poke was just so simple. Take this off rather than put it back on.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Would you ever. Would you ever get scarred?

[David Ian Howe]

I think so, yeah. This is basically scarring. It was just like cutting that in there.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

That's what I'm wondering. Would you ever get like legit scarified? Like, you know, Mercy Tribe, you know, in Central Africa, like just fucking.

[David Ian Howe]

I think I would, man. I'm meeting up with my friend on Tuesdays at Archeology Inc. Is his. His Instagram or whatever. But he's like his whole thing. Mine's dogs has his ancient tattooing practices, scarification and all that. And he's just like his autism is that. Yeah. And he's just so good at that. Or I should say like he's really good at it. But the. The anthropology of tattooing and like body modification is like almost as cross cultural as dogs are. It's pretty sick. I love tattoos. But anyway, well get me, get me.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Lined up with him because that sounds awesome.

[David Ian Howe]

Awesome. We'll do.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

And in exchange I'll scar you right now if you want to take your shirt off.

[David Ian Howe]

Let's go. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Anyway bro, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. People can find you David Ian Howe on Instagram, YouTube, all that.

[David Ian Howe]

Yeah, Ethno Sinology is the Instagram. But you can find David and Howe as well.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

You're a legend. I appreciate you, brother. Thank you so much. And thank you guys for tuning in. I appreciate it a lot. All the links are in the description. Gabe, thanks for always being here, man. I really appreciate you.

[David Ian Howe]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Andrew Schulz or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, of course. And thanks for pulling up. Great stuff, dude. You're just some sick pics up there. Some cool links, some. Some cute stuff clicking on some, you know, native baddies. Respect. Thank y' all so much and we'll see you next time. Peace.

[David Ian Howe]

Arc Raiders, a multiplayer extraction adventure video game set in a lethal yet vibrant future Earth. As a raider scavenging the remnants of a derelict world, you settle into an underground settlement, hoping to thrive. You jump on the chance to start over. But doing so means you must return to the surface, where arc machines roam and survivors motives remain dangerously unclear. But if you're brave enough, who knows what you might find? Pre order now for PlayStation 5, Xbox Series XS, and PC available October 30th.